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Was Jesus a man or God?

  1. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 9 years ago

    I  would say Jesus would mean more if he was a man because then he is just like us and proved the power of faith in God.  Plus Jesus said plain as day, I am from the seed of David.  I am just like you, and do not bow down to me, I am just like you, or have no other God besided the Creator of Heaven and Earth and everything in them.
    Plus if Jesus was a man, then it would mean more that he faced death.  If Jesus was God, what fear could God know?  God would already know he was coming back so what would that prove? It wouldn't prove faith because there is no such thing as faith without doubt. 


    Other notables:
    God gave us Jesus his only begotten ( tought) son.
    There is only one God- at the time of Jesus, Jesus would be talking about God, not himself, if he wanted you to worship himself, he would have said worship me.
    instead he said, worship God but follow me, I am the way to God.   

    I would say that Jesus was able to do the things he did because God did them for him.  Jesus did not do them, but Jesus believed and loved God so much and God adored Jesus so much that God favored Jesus above all others and granted Jesus his every prayer, because Jesus was the embodiment of all that was in the name of God in Love. 

    Jesus said that only God could forgive our sins.  Jesus did not say, only I can forgive your sins.  Jesus said, follow me but believe in God.  Sure Jesus forgave people thier sins, but only because God granted everything that Jesus' could ask for to him.

    Luke 18:18- A ruler asked Jesus, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?  "Why do you call me good?"  Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One-God. 

    What are your thoughts on this? If you post, please be nice and respect each others belief, and do not try to convert people, that is not the purpose of this forum.  It's an open debate.

    1. Peter M. Lopez profile image90
      Peter M. Lopezposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      Mark, are you not being nice?

      Ms. Rinck asked everyone to be nice...

    2. Jeromeo profile image60
      Jeromeoposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      The bible clearly show's us who Jesus was.  He was born to Mary and Joseph.  Giving up his lofty position as the Arc-Angel Michael, to repair the damage done by Adam and Eve to GOD's perfect creation.

      Llike Adam Jesus was a man and by living for thirty three, years and not commiting sin, he was able to provide a propitiatory sacrifice on our behalf.

      All the answers to all your doubts are in the bible. The thing is to be able to understand the meanings of, Biblical sayings and the scriptures.

      The proper research on any subject helps us all to better understand and explain to others, why we believe the things we do and practice our faith the way we do.

      The object is not to persuade you to believe as I do but to get you to believe for yourself in the truths that are found in the Bible, by studing God's word.

      Just like a mother of our time would leave a  video or audio tape for their child when contemplating and early demise.  Since God is a Spirit creature he has provided us with the Bible.

      And to reenforce the teachiings of the Bible he sent his Son, to live as a man among us and speak as he/God would speak to us, so that we would believe.

      Yes Jesus was a man.  So we know that living according to Bible principle can be done by the average man.  Try it you'll like it.

      Jesus practiced "Love". Even against his enemies.  It may be oh so hard, for us to do the same but it is possibile; Jesus the Greatest Man who ever lived, has proven that.

      1. MrMarmalade profile image80
        MrMarmaladeposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I agree with your whole comment.As for Mark he is probably lonely, so he wants to talk. I can not blame him for talking, we Do not have to listen to him. As jeasus told us love your neighbour as you lave yourseld. Frannce is great place.
        I went to Monaco and for at least the next fifteen years I wanted to retire there.
        Lost that feeling now.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          LOL

          Lonely - no. Out of synch with most of his friends - yes.

          Most of France gets up at 6 a.m and Mark works for an American company that is based in Colorado. 8 hours behind French time. So, I have to socialise at the weekend only.

          Monaco is not the same place you remember it. You need an awful lot of money to live there nowadays. big_smile

          But you do not have to listen to me, that's for sure.

        2. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          hahhahah I agree with you.big_smile

      2. profile image0
        \Brenda Scullyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Just wondering    Do you own a book called "GREATEST MAN THAT EVER LIVED"

    3. secondsamuel profile image60
      secondsamuelposted 8 years ago in reply to this
    4. profile image59
      highlandhitch10posted 8 years ago in reply to this
    5. usmanali81 profile image60
      usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus (peace be upon him) is a man.

      Qur'an, Ch 4-Women, V 156-159

      156. That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
      157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
      158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
      159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

      1. mohitmisra profile image59
        mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus a god-man, someone who had fused withe the light or god and spread the message of the light.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          A god-man? Are you having a bet each way?

          1. mohitmisra profile image59
            mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Three stages of life man then god-man and then god.
            Like Zarathustra said there is an invisible bridge to be crossed for man to become super man. smile
            What Jesus meant by saying re born.

        2. usmanali81 profile image60
          usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          whom shoul i follow the God's word or yours???

          1. mohitmisra profile image59
            mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Whats the difference ? I speak on behalf of god or rather he speaks through me. smile

    6. Andrew0208 profile image61
      Andrew0208posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                   
      Wise question? Was Jesus a man or God? I love this thread, so inspiring. The words "man" and "God" are very vital in the realities of His true identity. "Man" is earthly thou has a soul that could relate with the Spirit and "God" is a Spirit. We may ask, can the two co-exist in one. Yes! They do. He said "I and my father are one." John 10:30. Jesus is a God(Spirit) and functioned on earth beyond His nature as a man. If he is God, then what are we? gods?. He called us gods. John 10:35.

      1. Make  Money profile image73
        Make Moneyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Me 3  smile



        Where Jesus says this in John 10:34 "Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods?" He is referring back to Psalms 81 where God was trying to persuade the men in power to help the poor, through David's Psalm.  Jesus was also speaking to the men in power in John 10. Psalms 81:6-8 "6 I have said: You are gods and all of you the sons of the most High. 7 But you like men shall die: and shall fall like one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge thou the earth: for thou shalt inherit among all the nations."  Psalms 81 in the Douay-Rheims Bible is Psalms 82 in the King James Bible.   

        To understand this verse in John 10 here's a part of two sermons by Augustine, one of the Fathers of the Church.




        Jesus is God and has been since the beginning (Genesis 1:26 & John 1:1).

        Jesus was also man for 31 years.

      2. mohitmisra profile image59
        mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        "I and my father are one."Jesus - this is truth. smile

      3. usmanali81 profile image60
        usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Please do not misquote Bible out of context. Two or Three can not co exist in one.

        John 10:30, I and the Father are one.


        You have to go to the Gospel of John, Ch. No.10, Verse No. 23, that  ‘Jesus walked into the temple, in Solomon’s porch’. Verse No. 24 says, and the Jews came around him and asked him. ‘How long does thou make us doubt? - If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly’.
        Verse No.25 says, ‘I told you, but you believe me not - the works that I do in my father’s name, - they bear witness of me.
        Verse No.26 says that, ‘you believe not because you are not my sheep, as I   said unto  you’.

        The Jews, they are asking Jesus Christ  (peace be upon him) that ‘Why don’t you speak plainly?’. So he tells them that…‘Yes I am the Messiah - I have told you clearly, but because you are not my sheep, you don’t believe in me.

        Verse No.27 continues…Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) continues saying that… ‘My sheep - they hear my voice, and I know them - and they follow me.
        Verse No.28, that… ‘I give them eternal life - no man can pluck them out of my hand, and they shall not perish’.
        Verse No.29 says ‘My father who giveth to me, He is greater than all - No man can pluck them out of my father’s hand. Then
        Verse No. 30 says, ‘I and my father are one’ – ‘Any person who has little bit sense can make out,  ‘I and my father are one’ doesn’t mean one - as one person. It means one is purpose.

        So they are one in purpose. If I say that my father is an Engineer … and he is an Engineer… Alhamdulillah - Even I am an Engineer. If I say, ‘I and my father are one’ - What does it mean? It means one in purpose - As Engineering profession, my father is an Engineer  - Even I am an Engineer. It doesn’t mean that ‘I and my father are one’ -In person. It means my father is an Engineer - even I am an Engineer

        1. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Om namo shiva I bow to shiva or god and shiv ho hum I am shiva or god - both are correct.
          Verse No. 30 says, ‘I and my father are one’ – ‘Any person who has little bit sense can make out,  ‘I and my father are one’ doesn’t mean one - as one person. It means one is purpose.
          It actually means they are one and the same thing.

          1. usmanali81 profile image60
            usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            No, it does not. Two things 2+2=4, 2+2=5, only ONE is correct.

          2. usmanali81 profile image60
            usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Mohit,

            What i am quoting are verses and what you are quoting are MANTRAS. Om Namo Shiva is different mantra than Shiv Ho Hum. You are adding them up. And for your kind information Mantras are from the traditions of Hinduism NOT from the Hindu Scriptures smile

            So, please stop promoting these added up MANTRAS and be practical

            1. mohitmisra profile image59
              mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              These mantras have a meaning.Enlightenment is in light someone who has fused with the light-Allah or Shiva.This is why Jesus and the masters say "I am the light" .They have become one with god and are no longer dual like a normal human being.They represent and work for the light-Allah or Shiva or Jevovah or god.
              Both these mantras or words which have a meaning are correct.

              The very purpose of life is for man to understand his oneness with god, with this cosmos.
              Please stop trying to teach me about god.You were telling Shila to write a book, why dont you and get ranked over Holy Qurans and my book then I will accept your philosophy that Muhammad is the last prophet and Islam is the best religion. smile You can take the help of all the Muslims in the world who feel like you and I still challenge you all to write a better book.

              1. usmanali81 profile image60
                usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, these mantras have meaning and these mantras are not from your religious scriptures, these are man made smile

                big_smile we have already got the better book: QUR'AN

                1. mohitmisra profile image59
                  mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Well then in my case I a half Hindu and half Parsee and my book is better than the Quran- now what?
                  scriptures come when man communicates with god like the prophet Muhammad and I do.

                  1. andromida profile image76
                    andromidaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    What did God tell  you.

                  2. usmanali81 profile image60
                    usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Put your legs in one boat other wise they will tear a part.

        2. Make  Money profile image73
          Make Moneyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          usmanali81 if you read this commentary on the book of Revelation written by our very own Sandra you will never say that the Bible says that Jesus is not God again.
          http://thanksgod.org/?page_id=120

          Besides Sandra has had a change of heart since she started this thread, thanks in part to Mark. smile

    7. profile image61
      stuymacposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      This is very well answerd...

    8. rizrazi profile image60
      rizraziposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus Was a Man sent on the Earth by GOD as Allah's Prophet's (May Allah be Pleased with Them)
      Islam remarks about it that Jesus was a Human and Maryam (May Allah be pleased with her) gave him birth without any sexual relation with any human
      Here I would like to say that Some people says that Jesus was Son of God because Maryam has no relation with any Human; Islam is completely against this statement, Jesus was a human which was given birth by Maryam without any relation and this was a Miracle which Allah wanted to show to that Community; similarly, When ESA spoke in lap of maryam (a newly borne baby) it was also a Miracle.... Miracles happen only because of Allah wants them to be happend

      1. earnestshub profile image88
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus is a story, and not even an original one.

        1. rizrazi profile image60
          rizraziposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Everyone has their own beliefs but I would say those things which i know or which my religion says..

        2. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          True, yet I am inclined to believe that he was actually a man... a nobody in the sense that he was like most people, not rich, a worker, a natural living human being just like everyone else.

          So the idea that you cannot find his remains isn't so much a mystery as he didn't have the money to afford a burial to preserve his remains and after he was cruxed, they not only took his remains but did away with them like they did with all the other nobodies in his time... cremation perhaps?

          Anyways, I am also inclined to believe that he was a very spiritually jewish person, he grew up in the Jewish belief but was well read and prolly extremely intelligent and so into people that like we do today, he understood the human nature and manipulated it to achieve the outcome he desired.

          Now, I also think that he was inspired by love, in that he fell in love with a prostitute name Mary and his love would have been forbidden in his time and it prolly pissed him off to the extreme that he very much understood love and also angered him to the point of rebellion... inspired by love but fueled by hate.

          I think he hated the jewish traditions because they denied himself of what his heart really wanted.  I think he was prolly pissed off by the people he hung out with being made slaves that he really, really wanted them to be set free.

          Yet it was an extremely oppressive time for him to live so everything he did, he did out of love and rebelled the laws and inspired other people using the "fulfillment" of the prophecy to make them believe in him.

          I also think that he felt so attached to what he believed to be god, his spirit, that it also fueled him to protect what he felt by saying things like "the father and I are one" because in a lot of ways today, people tend to feel very attached to what they "feel" and when someone comes and tells them that they are wrong about what they feel or want to define for them what is right or proper, we also rebel in this sense because who can tell a person how to feel or who can define what cannot be seen? 

          Was he good to do this... in hindsight, no but was he justified to do this because he really, really, really loved something more than himself but also loved himself enough to know that it was a love he deserved?  yes absolutely.

          Was he a liar?  Was he a lover?  yes.  Did he really believe in unity and love (hippy) yes.  And did he also understand that it was not okay to deny a person of their "spirit", absolutely! 

          Does it qualify him as god?  In someways yes, in that we was a master of manipulating people or an inspiration to so many people... the same way that people see a rock star or a nobel prize winner as a god... they are like masters at what they did or do.

          Not mystical. And what people do today with making a religion out of him is completely against what he believed... did he know it would happen, prolly and that is why it is said that he is gonna come back and be bloody pissed off at preachers, teachers, sexually immoral (not so much that being sexually immoral is to find new ways to boink but more like taking advantage of women or using them for sex without love... Mary ring a bell?) liars etc...

          I really, really think that Jesus was so in love with humanity and Mary and hated religious or political oppressions so much that it inspired the the thought that "god is love".

          big_smile

  2. RFox profile image82
    RFoxposted 9 years ago

    My take is a man. A Prophet for want of a better word. An enlightened being. A teacher. big_smile

  3. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 9 years ago

    "For Jesus to be any part non-human would mean he didn't truly experience the suffering of man, and then he can't truly relate to us in our time of greatest need."  -comment by Reinreed-


    -sandra-Me smile
    That's my point, then Jesus had to one hundred percent human for him to truely understand the suffering of man.  If he was God, then he couldn't truely relate to us in our greatest time of need.  It makes him 100% human and 100% full-of the Spirit, and a true testament of God.  Nothing is 100% God but God- if Jesus is any part man, then He is not God. 
    John 20: 21
    Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." After saying this, He breathed on them and said, " Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain any, they are retained."

    Plus, just because Jesus said that no one can forgive a sin but God, and Jesus forgives many people of thier sins, doesn't mean Jesus doesn't know God well enough to know that if he found a reason to fogive them, then so too would God find a reason to forgive them.

    So we were given every bit of power to forgive sins, but we are not God, but can become 100% full of Spirt, and 100% human, which makes us just like Jesus.

  4. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 9 years ago

    Can we have it both ways? Like us - and Jesus - being a part and a whole at the same time...

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      According to Jesus, yes.  And I say yes, as well.  All anyone has to do is believe in God, and God comes first from the inside. No one can tell you how to love God, or what it takes to love God, but the Bible does say- know yourself.

      If Jesus was God then the faith that was proven, was God's faith in US.  In another hub, someone commented on why I call Jesus the duel purpose Jesus, or the deciever and savior, and that is why.


      -refere again to prior posts-

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        I was looking up some stuff for another hub when I came accross this.  It's from the book, The Agnostic Gospels of Jesus. 

        -Two Trees in Paridise-Jesus said:

        There are two trees growing in paridise.  One produces (animals) and the other produces people.  Adam ate of the tree that produces animals, and (he) became an animal and brought forth animals.  As a result Adam's children worship animals.  The tree (whose) fruit (he ate) is the (tree of knowledge, and because of this, sins) increased.  (If he had) eaten the (fruite of the other tree), the fruit of (the tree of life, which) produces people, (gods would) worship people.  As (in paradise) God created people (that people) might create God, so also in the world people make gods and worship what they have created.  It would be more fitting for gods to worship people. 


        so to reiderate my thought on if Jesus was God, what faith could he have proven unless it was Gods faith in Us,  because God does not exist without our knowledge.  If we were not created or made or here in the first place, what would there be?  Only animals, like with the dinosaures. 

        Certainly things could exist without us, but who would be around to see and say it exist without the man?  Man has the greatest purpose ever concieved.  So there is my duel purpose Jesus once again.  Jesus was created to worship God, God was created to worship man (not animals), and the purpose?  To bring God into Man, and Man into God.

        So while animals might have life, they are the lesser, they were not made to do anything other than eat and be eaten, to live and die, but people were made for life and God. 

        So, I dont love all mankind because of Jesus, I love all mankind because we are the single most important thing ever.  Nothing will ever change that.  Man means everything. 

        If man was destroyed, so too would God be detroyed.  I wrapped my mind around, why the Bible would say that God is a very jelous God.  What would God have to be jelous of?  Probably the worship of the beast, (animals, materials, etc.  things that do not bring life).  Things that can put an end to God. 

        Because of Jesus, God will never die, and man will always exist.  Forever, eternal.  All that exist on Earth is All that exist in Heaven.  So what we do here is entirely in our power to do, however there is the ultimate sin- and that is to destroy mankind.  But you can't because Jesus can not die, he had already conqoured death, (as sparkling jewel had mentioned earlier), so where would we go if Earth was detroyed? 

        I don't know, but wherever Jesus is going, is only leading to God.

    2. SparklingJewel profile image67
      SparklingJewelposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      It is my belief that we are meant to follow Jesus' teachings and become like him. He was a human that had "evolved" out of the dregs of humanness...he gradually got to the point of being more Light (that is God) by overcoming his humanness aspects that make us believe we are separate, apart from God. As we overcome our sense of separation from God by becoming more like Jesus, "...we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is..." (like God). "Let that mind be in you that was also in Christ Jesus" ""...all these things I do, ye can do also, because I go unto my Father..."
      Sorry I can't give the Bible verses with numbers and book.
      Jesus overcame the world (of being as a human) he conquered the rounds of rebirth by rising above the human needs and ways of the world that keep us bound to the material realm, instead of becoming more Light (One with God)

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        exactly. smile

  5. topstuff profile image61
    topstuffposted 9 years ago

    i think the answer is hidden in the question.The word ''was'' is noteworthy.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        your are indeed right, topstuff.

  6. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 9 years ago

    I was thinking about reflections last night.  I wondered this (just a thought, so if it offends anyone, I am sorry)  The Original God-

    Obviously there is a force out there I call God that completely goes above anything I can possibly imagine. So this thought is for the original man who concieved God.  The self concieved God, or man.

    Mirrors.  I was thinking about mirrors because I was tapping on a mirrored coffee table, and of course you can see the reflection in it, looks exactly the same but opposite,  one illusion that was pointed out by a friend, was that even though I was tapping my right hand on the mirror, the reflection replicated my left hand. 

    Then I thought, hmmm.  Well, one is completely real, I can touch and I know my left hand is real also, but the reflection, held the illusion of my left, but at a certain angle,  it was as though I was still complete.  (you follow me yet).

    So when was the first mirror invented?

    Originally a mirror would have had to be water.  The original man (Adam  maybe?) looked in the water and saw his reflection.  SInce there was no one around to tell him what it was, he self concieved God.  I mean, he would have been the one to originally think of "God".  Evidentally, he would have thought he was God, but when he went to touch the water, he noticed that it rippled out and destroyed the illusion of himself. 

    I think there is a greek story about that.

  7. College politico profile image60
    College politicoposted 9 years ago

    The problem with saying that Jesus wasn't God is that he openly and directly forgives sins in scripture. This is something that only God can do. Therefor Jesus was God. Simple enough.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I forgive you your sins.

      I am now God.

    2. helenathegreat profile image86
      helenathegreatposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      Whoa whoa whoa.  That is... absurd and completely ridiculous on so many levels.

      Jesus "openly and directly forgives sins"... What do you think Catholic confessions are for?  Didn't Jesus teach us to forgive those who strike us down?  Jesus' whole shtick was love and forgiveness of our neighbor.  Did you just miss that?!  We ALL are meant to "openly and directly" forgive each other's sins.  That doesn't make any of us God, though each of us is a part of God.

      Your logic is entirely flawed and irrelevant.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        What she said - only much, much nicer than I did. smile

        1. helenathegreat profile image86
          helenathegreatposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          That was much nicer than I wanted to be.  wink  I can certainly appreciate different takes on ANY aspect of the Bible, but that one is just so clearly stated...  If I had a canonical gospel within reach, I'd be spitting quotes from it faster than you could read them.  We're all meant to forgive.  All I can say is, "Duh."

    3. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

       

      Maybe you missed this at the begging of the forum:

      John 20: 21
      Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." After saying this, He breathed on them and said, " Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain any, they are retained."

      Plus, just because Jesus said that no one can forgive a sin but God, and Jesus forgives many people of thier sins, doesn't mean Jesus doesn't know God well enough to know that if he found a reason to fogive them, then so too would God find a reason to forgive them.

      So we were given every bit of power to forgive sins, but we are not God, but can become 100% full of Spirt, and 100% human, which makes us just like Jesus.

  8. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    Don't like him/her.

    I think he is the worst example of a poor Christian - and his political ignorance is amazing.

    And I like a good argument. big_smile

    Sorry to everyone else. smile Feel free to ignore me.

    1. topstuff profile image61
      topstuffposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I also like good arguments,and if i do that i have to listen,''keep the hubs nice please''.So sometimes i think these forums are more  to show one's presence.

  9. Peter M. Lopez profile image90
    Peter M. Lopezposted 9 years ago

    Cut him some slack, he's young.  Besides, you said you forgave him.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I was being ironic.....

  10. College politico profile image60
    College politicoposted 9 years ago

    How does an atheist have a place in a discussion of theology and how does someone living in france have a place in a discussion of American foreign policy?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I live a LOT closer to Iraq than you do and am married to an American. Plus, to help alleviate your obvious ignorance of the facts - I am English - and we invaded Iraq along with you, so it's not just American foreign policy, it's British as well.

      As for theology, what is an ignorant warmonger doing discussion the subject?

      1. College politico profile image60
        College politicoposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        1. I know you're English... did i say you weren't? Are you not living in France? Were you not discussing how much the war costs for America? How do you fit in that debate?

        2. Please refrain from making judgments on me... my actions are one thing... you can call them whatever you like. But once you say that I am ignorant or a warmonger it turns into a personal attack (which is not aloud if you recall).

  11. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    Well, it is ALLOWED to say things like:

    war·mon·ger (wôr'mŭng'gər, -mŏng'-) pronunciation
    n.

    One who advocates or attempts to stir up war

    ig·no·rant (ĭg'nər-ənt) pronunciation
    adj.

       1. Lacking education or knowledge.
       2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
       3. Unaware or uninformed.

    So, yes, I think you are an ignorant warmonger. As opposed to -

    jack·ass (jăk'ăs') pronunciation
    n.

       1. A male ass or donkey.
       2. A foolish or stupid person; a blockhead: “You've acted like an irrational jackass and it's time you stopped” (Margaret Truman).

    Which is a personal insult.

    1. College politico profile image60
      College politicoposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      So in your world calling someone ignorant or a warmonger is not an insult? interesting.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        Merely a statement of fact. If you cannot see the difference that's "Interesting."

  12. College politico profile image60
    College politicoposted 9 years ago

    You're completely missing the point of what I was saying. I was referring to Mark 2:6-12. I was only responding to the idea that Christ was not God or the idea that Christ himself never claimed to be God. Clearly this passage disproves that idea because Jesus is forgiving sins in his own name.

    Mark's metaphor actually is correct if he is claiming to be God as Jesus was. Also when a Christian forgives sins it is in the name of Christ, through his power, and not in their own name or though their own power.

    Anyway I have to go. Keep up the discussion though... its definitely an important one.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I beg to differ and think you missed the point.  God gave the power to forgive to Jesus, and Jesus gave it to us. 

      Also ealier mentioned,  if Jesus is God, then what "faith" was proven?  It would be God's faith in us. 

      If Jesus is man, what faith is proven? That Jesus had faith in God and made it, and if you
      become just like Jesus (take note on the word just, as also in justice, another prominate feature of the Bible) then there is always a reason to forgive, be it by your own will or the will of God via. Jesus. 

      But the idea would be that You need to forgive, not Jesus because Jesus already has.  Saying you forgive someone in the name of Jesus is like saying that you, yourself can not find it in your heart to forgive, (the catch 22)  if you, yourself can find a reason as a human to forgive someone of a sin, then so too will Jesus find a reason, and so too will God find a reason to forgive.  If you, yourself retain or don't find reason to forgive a sin, that sin will not be forgiven of you.  And we all know people make mistakes. 
      Thus a perfectly laid plan that can only start with yourself.

  13. profile image0
    SirDentposted 9 years ago

    Phi 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


    Jesus is the form of man with the spirit of God poured into Him. He is and was both man and God. he showed the way. he is our leader, the head of the church/body. The body can do nothing without the head's say so. The head of the body must be the main leader. There is none above Jesus as Jesus is also God.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      That's why I call Him the duel purpose Jesus.  lol.

      1. Inspirepub profile image87
        Inspirepubposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        I assume you meant "dual purpose" when you wrote this, as in dual = two?

        Because it's a nice Freudian slip way to spell it, given how many people duel over Him, too.

        wink

        Jenny

    2. College politico profile image60
      College politicoposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I think this analysis gets it absolutely right.

      Sorry if my answers were incomplete. I was only trying to address one specific issue (whether Jesus was God or not) and I probably didn't make that clear.

  14. Inspirepub profile image87
    Inspirepubposted 9 years ago

    I think the question is the problem.

    Since Jesus said that he was no different from anyone else, and that we are all the Sons of God (later politically corrected to allow for the existence of females to "Children of God"), then asking "Was Jesus a man or God?" is like saying "Was Jesus a man or a primate?", or "Was Jesus a man or a living creature?".

    It's a silly question, because all men are primates, all men are living creatures, and all men are God.

    As God says, in Conversations With God, "Did I not say that you are gods?"

    We are all one.

    We are all God.

    Arguing that man and God are different is arguing for separateness, and separateness of man from God is a function of the ego, aka original sin.

    Repent, ye sinners, before it is too late .... big_smile

    1. profile image0
      SirDentposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I agree with one thing you said Inspire. Repent, ye sinners, before it is too late. . . tongue

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        LOL - Well, I am fortunate enough to  have done nothing wrong. So I don't need to repent.

        Sandra - thank you. These are questions I had to ask myself long ago - because the whole thing just doesn't make sense unless you accept the basic premise that we needed saving in the first place.

        vrecc - that assumes that there IS a god in the first place... and no one seems able to agree on that, whether Jesus even existed, or if he did, who he was.

    2. SparklingJewel profile image67
      SparklingJewelposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, but once you get away from feeling "a worthless sinner" mind set, you can get to the seeing of what you have within you that needs to be worked on (psychology, human ego, etc) and that is when the a conscious spiritual path begins.
      Jesus had "overcome the world" (all that human ego psychology-etc..) that is why he is the best example we have had so far for finding Oneness with God/Universe. To me, especially since I add in the lost years of Jesus' life that were not recorded in the books of the Bible. Once we see all of his life and what he sought to discover about himself and the "religions" of the east, we see his entire developmental steps of healing psychology. He saw the Oneness in the other religions, and said so, and according to some writings, he was run out of those places for fear of his life...just as what happened with the Jewish leaders.

    3. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      can we change the saying, repent, ye sinner, before it is too late to say something more like,
      Just ask God if you are ok???

  15. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 9 years ago

    Jenny,

    Once again I admire your brilliant post smile

    But there is no such thing as a silly question I think - and this one is no exception: it generated pretty interesting discussion, didn't it? I think this is what this question was meant to do wink

  16. vreccc profile image59
    vrecccposted 9 years ago

    I know I'm chiming in on this one a little late, but here goes. My understanding, based on my faith, is that Jesus, and others like him, are manifestations of God. They reflect the light of God as a mirror does. Jesus IS man in the human sense, but he has something that humans don't and that is access to the Word. He said he was the "way" unto the Father, but he bled like we do.

    Jonathan

  17. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    But without the worthless sinners surely you don't need a Jesus?

    And Sir Dent, you are once again persuading me that it is impossible to have a rational discussion with a lot of "Christians."

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      Interesting question Mark,  you always come with the good questions. Ignore Sirdent cause I think you are a remarkable attribute to the disussion.  ( I know I can''t spell very well, ignore that too)

  18. vreccc profile image59
    vrecccposted 9 years ago

    I find it perplexing that one could think Jesus, or any other manifestation of God, is God. It's pantheism.

    At the council of Nicea in 325? when the Constantine was making Christianity the official religion of the roman empire, there was huge debate among those present as to the station of Jesus. Why they went with saying he IS God is perplexing. Maybe Constantine thought he could wield more power that way. Who knows. But, in my estimation, God is above egress and regress. He can't be put into human form. The universe would explode or something. smile

  19. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 9 years ago

    Mark Knowles wrote:
    But without the worthless sinners surely you don't need a Jesus?

    -sandra-

    The point of Jesus was for the people who felt they worth-less to make them feel worth-more.
    Someone who already feels their worth is good doesn't neccissarily need a Jesus, but in my opinion anything that possitivly builds up a man and what a person is worth is the work of Jesus. 
    I guess the question would be whether or not someone recognized the original coiner. or phrase or author of the work and giving credit where credit is rightfully due.

    Way on down the line to the very first man Adam or not, whoever the very first man was who brought the concept into reality would be God.  ???

  20. vreccc profile image59
    vrecccposted 9 years ago

    ooops!! looks like i jumped into this one way too late. sorry

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      No need - we have gone in so many directions it doesn't matter. At least you had some facts to share. LOL

  21. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    sandra - I like your last line of argument.

    But - most of the bible teaches you to accept that you are worthless, it's OK to be worthless, in fact the worthless are the best kind of people -  but when you die - That's when you get to be worth something.

  22. vreccc profile image59
    vrecccposted 9 years ago

    I know we all have different beliefs concerning the existence of God. So, out of respect for that, I will speak hypothetically. Supposing there was a Jesus and that Jesus was the representative of God for humanity during that age (2000 years ago). And let's also suppose that he did go out of his way to remind them that they were sinners. Could it have been that the people in that day needed this kind of push. Remember, the VAST majority of people in those days did not have an education. They couldn't even read and write. They learned through metaphor and fear. We are quite different today and this "you are a sinner" approach seems to be out of date, even if it was at one time excepted.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I say that being human in the first life is proof of God. 

      I agree with Mark, that when die you become worth something.

      concerning both points, then I would say that is why Jesus was a man.  As human he was proof of God, as we all are because we have life and know without question that we are here whether from an illusionary standpoint or not, and when he died he became worth something.

      vreccc posted this comment on the "How often do you read the Bible" request.

      "Turn thy sight unto thyself, that thou mayest find Me standing within thee, mighty, powerful and self-subsisting."

    2. SparklingJewel profile image67
      SparklingJewelposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      How can any of us be sure we know what kind of spin was placed on what Jesus was  saying when he said"repent ye sinners"?
      The way it has come down since he said it may have been a misquote, the sense of attitude behind his words, I mean. Maybe he was speaking like, just recognize we have karma that needs to be worked out and go about doing it, not beating yourself up about it as being someone that is worthless (which is the spin I am talking about). I don't believe Jesus spoke from an attitude of condemnation of another. But just of awareness and the importance of recognizing it, understanding it and forgiving it and acting in a way that can bring balance to it; balance their karma.

      1. vreccc profile image59
        vrecccposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        I can agree with this. We do not know what Jesus meant by those words, the tone, etc. There's truth to what yo usay

  23. profile image0
    SirDentposted 9 years ago

    Mat 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    The words of Jesus Himself. I ask you, Mark, and anyone else who wants to answer, "Have you ever in your life told a lie?"

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      Of course I have told a lie. Many, many lies.

      But sometimes, a lie is a greater kindness than the TRUTH.

      For instance:

      "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

      Perhaps a better question would have been - Have you ever told a lie for personal gain or to convince someone to believe your doctrine so that you may have power over them?

      Merely quoting 2,000-years-out-of-date, out-of-context garbage is unlikely to convince me of anything other than the fact that you do not have a single, solitary original thought.

    2. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      SirDent, you can not force someone into believing something they don't believe.  But you can push people further away by demanding that they do.  You can post all you want to, but I specifically asked that no one try to convert people on this forum, so the more that you push on people to do that, ultimately it can only bring in bad or ill or negitive feelings in yourself and in other and I do not promote those things. 

      In my world, my realm and my thoughts, anyone who wants Heaven can come to Heaven, every one is free to chose what they want to.  So if your arguement is this:  why should someone be allowed into Heaven if they had not worked for it like you or believed like you, all I can say is:  because everyone deserves that place no matter what, because this world is built upon lies or sin and knowing so is every reason to believe that it was never any mans fault and with that, if Mark choses not to repent, then he is absoluty perfect in his decision and completely logical. 
      If you can not judge in favor of all man, then you are no judge at all.  And much further from Jesus than you will admit or even consider recognizing.

      1. vreccc profile image59
        vrecccposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        Sandy,

        You send this much better than i was able to. Nice!!

        1. SparklingJewel profile image67
          SparklingJewelposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          I would like to understand what you meant Sandra, in a portion of the above, when you said "...and knowing so is every reason to believe that it was never any mans fault..." I am having a hard time understanding  this whole sentence. Could you break it up a bit and rephrase into several sentences maybe. What bothers me is that portion I just said above...how can it not be any mans fault that they made the choices they made to do or say a certain thing...??

          You have to admit, don't you, that Mark, for instance is consciously choosing to press the buttons of someone to insite argument, when he knows it will do so. I feel he (Mark) needs to develop some compassionate maturity for someone he is obviously a "senior" to.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            Well, it just so happens that Mark has had personal experiences of the abuse that is dished out by people pushing the doctrines that both SirDent and college politico push.

            Mark will continue to press those buttons until the cows come home. And is well aware that he is doing so.

            I gave up showing compassionate maturity to these people long ago. Because they will just take advantage and continue on their course. If I can persuade one person away from evangelical Christianism or warmongering ignorance, I will have spent my time well.

            Mark - if you care to look through the other forum threads is also quite capable of showing both compassion and helpful consideration of the others around him.

            I don't see either college politico or sirdent offering anything other than what they are offering here on this thread.

            1. SparklingJewel profile image67
              SparklingJewelposted 9 years ago in reply to this
          2. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            With regards to Mark, he has already been addressed, what else can I do? even if I do wish he would stop antagonizing. 

            As for the other question, give me an example and I can explain if not, then don't worry about the statement.

      2. profile image0
        SirDentposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        The subject of repentance was brought up by another. When that happens it is open for discussion. I am not forcing anyone, but I am speaking and showing the truth to all.

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          Certainly, you are right,  I just wanted the fighting to stop.  If you felt ganged up on, I am sorry for that, but as you are a Christian, it is sometimes really hard to know you get hated and then be expected to turn the other cheek.  smile No ones fault, just look up. 

          for the discussion of repentance,  maybe it would be more profitable if you could explain it so that it is open to be discussed.  The way you posted it came accross neggitive.  So I am up for a discussion on repentance- just be remined that not everyone is going to have the same opinion as you.  smile

          1. profile image0
            SirDentposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            I deal with people of differing opinions constantly. The scripture was to show what Jesus actually said about repentance. I didn't feel attacked personally, but there was another earlier in this thread that I thought was attacked. I am attacked on a daily basis myself and am used to it. No big deal. I am not sure if I will start a new thread on repentance or not. I believe my hubs have the required information if anyone wants to read them they can.

            1. profile image0
              sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

              well whether you decide to or not,  starting a new thread would be a good way to get people interested in your hubs.

        2. Inspirepub profile image87
          Inspirepubposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          Would this be a good time to raise the subject of irony with regard to my "repent, ye sinners" comment?

          I realise it is a tone often lost on Americans, so I will spell it out in detail.

          The word "sin" in the original Greek translates to "error", not "crime". Repentence does not mean admitting one is guilty of a crime.

          The error is perceiving oneself or anyone else as separate.

          Repentence is letting go of the erroneous perception.

          When you look at another and judge them, you perceive them as separate, which means YOU sin. Not them, YOU.

          "Judge not, lest ye be judged", remember?

          I was calling on all the people who see man and God as being separate to repent, renounce their error, and return to the sacred unity that is our birthright.

          You, SirDent, have been deceived by Satan into the arrogant error of imagining yourself or another to be separate from God.

          Repent!

          But of course, the part about "too late" was mere jest. There is no such thing. You will return to the experience of unity when you die, either way.

          The only thing at issue in the meanwhile is your quality of life. Repentence is optional.

          Repent, if you wish to have a life of bliss.

          Otherwise, feel free to carry on rendering judgement and tilting at windmills to your heart's content. If nothing else, it is entertaining to Mark.

          Jenny

          1. vreccc profile image59
            vrecccposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            Jenny,

            You blow my mind with your clarity.

            1. profile image0
              sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

              I know right.  Jenny can clear up just about anything.  Jenny roxx!

              1. Misha profile image75
                Mishaposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                Werd!

          2. College politico profile image60
            College politicoposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            Just a quick question. Are you coming from the perspective that everyone is saved/reconciled in the end? I was picking up that tone and I was just wondering if I was off base?

            1. Inspirepub profile image87
              Inspirepubposted 9 years ago in reply to this

              Well, everyone is already and always at one with God - the "sin" of separation is an error, an illusion - it is not real.

              Material reality is an illusion.

              Pain, fear, hatred, anger, greed, lust - all mist and vapor.

              The only reality is spiritual. The only existence is singular. Distance and time are illusion, so "in the end" is a meaningless statement in spiritual terms. Everything happens/has happened/will happen/is happening at once. "The end" is now.

              There is only now.

              Jenny

              1. College politico profile image60
                College politicoposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                I would have to disagree with you but is that Spinozian thinking? or am I confusing it with another philosophy?

  24. vreccc profile image59
    vrecccposted 9 years ago

    Mark,

    Just leave this guy alone. He is not interested in conversation.

  25. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    LOL - I know, I just can't help myself sometimes. big_smile

  26. profile image0
    SirDentposted 9 years ago

    Yea go ahead and leave me alone. That seems to be the best way to avoid being shown the way of God. People quote Socrates, Plato and many other authors who lived before Jesus, but God forbid someone post something that might seem offensive to you.

    The question asked for this thread is Was Jesus a man or God? I have shown that He is both. When someone says they are good and have never sinned, they have no idea what they're saying. Then they have the gall to attack me because of what I stated. It seems to me that it is OK for some to offend, but not others. Is this true?

    I don't recall anyone calling Mark an idiot or ignorant.
    (urgently waiting for a response)

    1. College politico profile image60
      College politicoposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      Careful SirDent... you don't want to argue with Mark... Apperntly he's far better than the rest of us and in fact, by his own admission, he is perfect.

  27. vreccc profile image59
    vrecccposted 9 years ago

    Mark and Sirdent,

    Which of you is the slow learner here.

    Sir Dent, I believe in God and I believe there was a Jesus. But, Sir Dent, Jesus also told us not to Proselytize. Jesus said not to share your words with those who are not interested in listening.

    Mark--- Shame on you! You found a button here and you just keep pushing it.

  28. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 9 years ago

    Sandra, you rock!

  29. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    I am not just picking the scab off my own wound.

    I am also trying to prevent others from receiving the same wounds.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I saw what you did, just wanted to say thanks for chaning the post,  you do show a lot of compassion, if not noticed by others, its noticed by me.  Thanks again. 

      Though the link was good, and perfect for the forum.

    2. SparklingJewel profile image67
      SparklingJewelposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, I can see that. But it seems obvious to me your way is not working some of the time. Because you all just keep going 'round and 'round. It just whips it up into froth at the mouth (energetically speaking smile).
      As a parent and adult that has worked with many  people younger than myself, I just have found that words of wisdom in as few insulting terms as possible, are the best teacher, and to not expect results, but hold the vision for a better sense of reality, and say what will go the furthest, as far as words that will truly be heard. OR silence is golden, sometimes was the best answer. Every soul wants to believe (and has to believe) what they believe in a particular space and time about a particular subject. And that sense of doing for one's self and in one's own way in one's own time, seems to be the norm for us humans. It is all a developmental  process and we "get" what stages we can "get", whenever we "get" them. We are all unique as to when we "get" it; whatever "it" is. smile
      Peace and Love to us All smile smile smile

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        It will keep going 'round and 'round. I agree.  But I am not really speaking to the people I am arguing with. I have zero chance of persuading either sirdent or cp that they are wrong. But these are public forums that all can read.

        If one person reads what I say and asks themselves a question - I am satisfied

  30. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    Awwwww... another time and with other people in the discussion, maybe. smile

  31. Inspirepub profile image87
    Inspirepubposted 9 years ago

    This particular line of thought does not belong to any one philosopher.

    In the Bible it says "now I see through a glass, darkly, then face to face", and it also explains that people who have died are not waiting somewhere for the rest of us to die - they immediately return to God.

    Buddha is very clear on this point, too.

    St Augustine and St Theresa of Avila.

    Have you read "A Course In Miracles"? "Return To Love"? "Conversations With God"?

    God Himself explains it better than I ever could.

    If you disapprove of the situation, there is no point in saying you disagree with me, lol.

    You'll have to explain to God that you disagree with Him.

  32. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 9 years ago

    I can never understand how anyone could heed such an ill desire that certain people or actually the majority of mankind will be burnt up in a fire. 

    -that just sounds like the Devil to me.

    There never was any fear of God, ever!
    Fear should have never take the place of Love.
    Fear and Love do not go hand and hand, that just spells oppression, suppression, lies, suffering, false Love. etc. 

    Jenny is absoluty right on her convitions.  I if need, I will testify that what she says is right, I do know it, and trying to disprove it is the most unjust, rediculas, ill founded, not even close to Gods desire as one can come. 

    Why would someone "fight" to prove this is not true? 

    So, when CP is up there talking to God about what Jenny said, I will be right next to Jenny saying, neeneer, neener, neener. lol.

  33. College politico profile image60
    College politicoposted 9 years ago

    Interesting philosophy thats new to me but I simply believe it is not the truth.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I wonder why?  Do you believe that certain people should go to Hell?

      1. College politico profile image60
        College politicoposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        No I don't want anybody to goto hell which is why I believe in evangelism. Christ sacrificed for us all. He took our place. He payed for our transgressions. All that is required of us is that we accept that sacrifice.

        But This discussion is certainly going to move us farther off topic. Perhaps another forum thread would cover this better?

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          Then that is all there is to it.  You don't believe it, I don't believe it.  No one believes it.
          I saw Hell once, obviously you will call me crazy, but whateva.  It scared the crap out of me.  It though holy sh*t, Hell is real.  Then I realized that no one was in it.

          So to be faithfully sound here, no matter how you preach it, Gods will, will be done and all will return to God.

          I guess enough said: so back to question at hand, Jesus...God or Man?

  34. College politico profile image60
    College politicoposted 9 years ago

    I'm sorry I don't think I stated it clearly enough. What I meant was I don't want anybody to goto hell. But in the end, due to free will, its up to each individual what path they wish to choose. Perhaps in the end there is no one in hell? Its possible that everyone chooses to accept Christs sacrifice, I don't know since I don't know peoples hearts.

    As for the question at hand I believe that Jesus was both fully man and fully God.

  35. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 9 years ago

    there is some evidene that Jesus didn't exist at all.  Any takers on that?

    1. College politico profile image60
      College politicoposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      Theres plenty of evidence outside Christian writings that he did in fact exist. Roman historians of the period would be one good example.

    2. Thom Carnes profile image59
      Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      We had a whole thread on this topic a few weeks ago.

      Do you really want to go through the whole palaver yet again?

      Well, I'm game if you are!

  36. profile image0
    Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago

    This topic is laughable really.

    A despot would do the same thing, offer eternal beatitude versus eternal damnation.

    It would be like a narcissistic paranoid king of old going to a friend's house and offering him the highest position in his court if he accepted and the gutter/dungeon if he didn't.  If I am not mistaken a lot of despots including stalin operate like this.

    Same thing with salavation, "god" says take this free gift or your going to suffer my abscence for all eternity (which would by definition entail a place of total deprivation the highest suffering of which not surprisingly would be the lack of god himself).  That is a totally narcissistic position, but "god" can get away with it somehow.

    Curious that the qualities of the christian god are also the qualities that an NPD (someone who has Narcissistic Personality Disorder) would try so hard to convince people he had:

    Omnibenevolence

    Omnipresence

    Omnipotence

    Omniscience

    This is exactly what the wizards of oz among us want other people to believe.

    Just on basic definitions alone a gift is not really free if by willfully and knowingly refusing it you are subject to harsh punishment.  Such a gift by the very definition of it's proposal and potential punishment if rejected contains and element of psychological co-ercion, becaues after all no one in his right mind would like to sit in the all consuming fire that the theological abscence of "god" would constitute.  Eternal misery is a powerful psychological bludgeoning tool and, might I add, it keeps people going to church or reading and living the bible just so they do not have to suffer for all eternity, even if they are partially fallen away.  Quite simply put fear of hell is a "good thing" (according to christians) and any honest christian will tell you this, because it is wel known that in the abscence of "perfect/greater love of god" fear of hell keeps people in line. 

    Somehow these points escape most christians (gg cognitive dissonance), but it is easy for me to explain really. As I see it x-tianity is a social construct and all this lingo is really a subconscious thing to describe the shared narcissism of all the believers (majority of whose narcissistic parts reside in the minsterial hiearchy of any given construct of this sort).

    In about 700 years my guess is there won't be any christianity, it will pass the way of the dodo bird just like all religions (yes I know zoroastrianism is still around). 

    In all honesty I doubt any of us will ever see the end of religion (humans as a race even).

    Even in the abscence of a belief in god it is so easy for one to be constructed.  Take someone like xerxes or stalin or hitler or w/e.  If there was no god and that person developed an imaginary friend in their childhood (and kids can do this completely on their own) and then later on after obtaining a position of power demanded that people worship his imaginary friend after he gave it a name then "god" would come back into existance easily.  The best way to get rid of god is through teaching people evidential reasoning (imo).  Evidential reasoning is basically critical thinking codified so that people can learn to tell nonsense from legit stuff.

    Without evidential reasoning, anything goes, absolutely anything even something as ridiculous as homepathy.

    So was Jesus man or God?  I hope he was God, because if he was God then he sure as hell would have more knowledge of things than any of us (humans or any other race).

    I seriously doubt the version of Jesus painted by the modern day christians has anything to do with who actually existed.

  37. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    LOL Thom, Sandy wrote this 2 months ago big_smile

  38. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    LOL Zarm, you are all over the place again smile BTW, I think homeopathy is not ridiculous, allopathy is smile

  39. mohitmisra profile image59
    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago

    Jesus was a Godman- both man and God.
    An Enlightened One who spread the message of God.A man who has fused with the light with God.
    Zaratushtra says there are three stages to life.Man must cross an invisble bridge
    The three stages are Man-Godman and then God.
    Poet Mohit.K.Misra

  40. waynet profile image50
    waynetposted 8 years ago

    He was neither, he was a fictional character in a bedtime story for kids....

    1. Eng.M profile image74
      Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I don't agree with you since many people witnessed that they saw him and the story that he exists is well known in many history books.

      but I don't think and believe he was a God,son of God, part of God or God himself.

      he was a man. a very good man.

      I don't think he would sacrifice for us because this is not justice.

      also, how can God pays  himself the price of our sins.

      how can anyone pays himself?

      Sandra:
      I think fear and love could come together as in the relationship we used to have with our parents when we were kids.
      our fear comes from feeling of guilty when we do something and we know it is wrong.
      if we have very nice parents we don't fear because they wont punish us.
      but the right thing is to punish kids when they make mistakes for their own good because they still don't understand life.

      similarly, we fear God when we make bad things -----
      he may forgive us because he is merciful and he also may punish us for our own good.

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        My fear of God came from seeing God, but I saw God for my love of Him.  Guilt doesn't come from doing what we know is wrong, it comes from doing what we feel is right that others precieve is wrong.  Where in Love can a person go wrong?  smile

        1. Eng.M profile image74
          Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          what do you mean?



          I agree


          when the lover is more experienced than us and he wants our good , he punishes us to teach us only.

          regards

          1. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I wouldn't call it punishment, just teaching. 

            smile

            1. Eng.M profile image74
              Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              yeah, it could be.

              teaching can be accomplished by different manners such as:

              advising, ordering , acting and puniching.

              imagine that you are a nice teacher in anice school teaching very nice kids and you like them all very much.

              some kids studied well and deserve to pass and others don't desreve.

              *is it justice that you make them all pass and treat them equally?

              God is perfect , so he is ultimately loveable , lover , strong , justicless and many more.

              so I think he is balancing his characteristics when he deals with us.

              and the most important think , he is merciful.

              I hope everyone will desrve his mercy.

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Well, exactly, everyone deserves mercy.  Everyone deserves to pass.  With even nominal amount of understanding that not everyone is the same, carries the same intellegence or attention span or ideals, a compassionate and understanding God, knows these things already.  Of course too, not all people has the same "destiny" to carry out. 
                Believing that a person who dedicates his life to studies of the physical world is no more important than one who dedicates his life to the study of God. 

                If all things must be done because it is written, then many people had come predestined to fullfill the requirements of the Books.  Free will seems to me, only a tool that makes us believe we are born free.  But our lives are shaped by outside forces, that change the innerself. 

                An atheist farmer serves Gods purpose by feeding Gods people.  Why would this not be rewarded?  smile

                1. Eng.M profile image74
                  Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  I think it could be right that everyone deserves to pass, but people only will have different levels of eternity then.
                  they could be punished for their mistakes and upgraded after it to a higher place.

                  I believe that God has created us with different minds and so he is giving people unlike tests depending on their capabilities that he gave.

                  I agree we all wont have the same destiny as we have varient lives and attitudes.

                  it doesn't matter to God in my opinion if a person didicated his life to science or to him.
                  what he wants are our hearts and intents.





                  this force had given us the will and because everything is written it doesn't mean we are controlled by it.
                  it means that time has no meaning to God. he knows what we will choose.


                  I think he must be rewarded, but how? what kind of reward?

                  ok, he is serving the society. so he is better for this socity than a person who dedicates his life to God individually without serving people.
                  so he could be rewarded in life and he also after life if his intent was good.
                  (he might have loved money and haven't cared about people but he still desrves the life reward)

                  but this atheist ignored his creator and didn't thank him for everything which is important I think.
                  sometimes, you serve people to thank God.(so it is all about intents and aims)
                  this farmer can't serve the socity properly if God didn't give him hands or legs for example.
                  so he must be thankful to God also.

                  1. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    If the farmer served the messanger well, then the messanger serves the farmer well.  smile

  41. profile image0
    ColdWarBabyposted 8 years ago

    Jesus was a brilliant, benevolent and compassionate man.  He was also a political activist and revolutionary.  It's what got him killed.

  42. secondsamuel profile image60
    secondsamuelposted 8 years ago

    1-3 Six days later, three of them saw that glory. Jesus took Peter and the brothers, James and John, and led them up a high mountain. His appearance changed from the inside out, right before their eyes. Sunlight poured from his face. His clothes were filled with light. Then they realized that Moses and Elijah were also there in deep conversation with him. [THE MESSAGE]

    Jesus was the second part of the Godhead, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. The trinity. Jesus was and is God manifested in the flesh. He in His risen glorified body is sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven. God became a man to save mankind. God sacrificed Himself in His manifested human body to show the world the extent of His love. He really didn't have to do it. I believe that He also wanted to set an example for us humans to follow and the end result would be a glorified body in heaven with Him.

  43. Misha profile image75
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    LOL that's a good one smile

    1. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you,
      happy you liked it.
      Warm regards
      Mohit

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        loved it, nice joke, I think I will use it.  wink

      2. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        loved it, nice joke, I think I will use it.  wink

        1. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Please do.
          warm regards
          Poet Mohit.K.Misra

  44. wings001 profile image60
    wings001posted 8 years ago

    Although this forum could probably go on forever - and is quite long already, I feel compelled to add a couple brief thoughts.

    First of all, none of us gets to decide who God is. While we all have our opinions, truth is truth and God is God.  Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance states that people will either change their behavior to match their beliefs or change their beliefs to justify their actions.  I challenge all of you to truly seek God and ask him to reveal himself and his truth to you. (God's truth is the only truth that really matters - since any other opinion is distorted by human error and pride.)

    Secondly, I think the answer to the question about who Jesus was (& is) is worth researching with an open mind.  As I said above, I challenge you to seek God and ask God to reveal himself to you - the Bible says God will reveal himself to anyone who seeks him with their whole heart.  It helps, I believe, if you accept the Bible as God's Word and ask God to give you understanding as you study His Word.

    Ultimately, eternity rests in the balance.  I pray that Satan will not deceive you into dismissing the question of who Jesus was as unimportant.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Here are a few verses from the Bible to ponder:

    "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." - Jesus Christ

    "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me." - Jesus Christ

    "There is a way that seems right to a man, but it's way is the way unto death."  - Solomon or some other wise teacher in the book of Proverbs

    "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God..."  - The Gospel of John 1:1 (If you read the rest of this passage it is clear that the author is speaking of Jesus.)

    May God bless all of you as you seek him with all your heart!

  45. gossipgirl81 profile image60
    gossipgirl81posted 8 years ago

    YOUR ANSWER IS IN THE BIBLE. READ IT AND FIND JOY. GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

  46. andromida profile image76
    andromidaposted 7 years ago

    Jesus was a man in mission of peace with the messages of GOD.
    Do you think that there are really any way we can perceive the
    concept of GOD.We can only try to find the  GOD by
    discussing in hubpages in this way,but there are no options left
    for us to know about GOD except his creation.Jesus definitely was a great prophet of Christianity and Islam as well.We have great faith in Jeses and   in his teachings but there is no way he is GOD,we can only try to know GOD better through Jesus. In fact, he is a gateway to GOD.GOD bless you all.

    1. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      From god comes all.All is god. smile

      1. andromida profile image76
        andromidaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        If you believe in GOD and his creation and follow all the major
        religious faith then its true-we all are part of GOD.If a make a house that will be part of my belonging but that does not necessarily make that house me.Moreover,its beyond our understanding to draw any conclusion about HIM-its a subject of
        metaphysics and he has given people like you and me to discuss about it.Its very nice to find your reply.Please comment more.

        1. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          God can be found with meditation or one pointed concentration.You die become the cosmos or god which is a state of absolute bliss.While you are in this state you think of yourself and you are immediately back in your body.This is called enlightenment or samadhi.
          You understand that its your thoughts which create everything and that god has no beginning and no end and everything man, the fish, animals, the earth, the universe is fully alive with the essence of god.
          This is the reason the three stages are man, then god-man  someone who has gained enlightenment and then finally god-going back home and merging with god in totality. smile

      2. usmanali81 profile image60
        usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        All is not god rather all is God's. A television comes from a scientist and logically we do not call TV a scientist smile

        1. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Both are true all is god and all is gods.Again you are saying all is not Allah and contradicting the great Islamic philosophy . smile

          1. usmanali81 profile image60
            usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            What philosophy you are talking about???

            In Islam and in reality, all belongs to ALLAH, All is absolutly no ALLAH. ALLAH created, He does not need to become the creation itself.

            There is a hell of difference between All is God's and All is God.

            Please don't get your philosophies from MATRIX. We are not virtual rather real creations of ALLAH as a scientist really created a computer system and did not need to become a computer system itself. Similarly ALLAH created the things and universe and He did not need to become the creation itslef.

            1. mohitmisra profile image59
              mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I get my philosophy from knowing god.Allah is the creator as well as the creation.If you knew Allah or god you would see him in all things. smile

              1. usmanali81 profile image60
                usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Get rid of philosophy and be PRACTICAL

                1. mohitmisra profile image59
                  mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Then the Quran and the prophet Muhammad should also be practical.

                  1. mohitmisra profile image59
                    mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    If you can see the signs then please look.

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                    I like being squeezed in between Holy Qurans -god is kind. smile Nice protection. smile Allah is looking after me. smile

  47. DennisBarker profile image60
    DennisBarkerposted 7 years ago

    I was going to write a post referring people to the information on the web about the Council of Nicea where there was a vote on this very subject (about 300ad if my memory serves) Jesus was voted as the son of god by a small majority.

    If we were to have another hubpages equivalent today would the vote go in favour or against?

    more information is available here
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

    There was some dispute at the time, and there still is.....

    The Arian controversy was a Christological dispute that began in Alexandria between the followers of Arius (the Arians) and the followers of St. Alexander of Alexandria (now known as Homoousians). Alexander and his followers believed that the Son was of the same substance as the Father, co-eternal with him. The Arians believed that they were different and that the Son, though he may be the most perfect of creations, was only a creation of God the Father. A third group (now known as Homoiousians) later tried to make a compromise position, saying that the Father and the Son were of similar substance.[22]"

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That is interesting.  When I proposed the question I my personal opinion was that Jesus was son of God.  Then further study, I believed that he was the prophet of God... then delving further into the question I actually came to believe that Jesus is God.

      If there was a vote now, I would vote that Jesus is God.  Six months ago, prophet of God... a year ago just a man. smile

      oh and about a two years ago I thought he was the anti-christ.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Not seeing the truth here. Where is "made up political construct"?

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          well actually you are part of the reason I went from believing that was just a man to believing that He is God. smile

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Well, bully for me. lol

            I don't really care who you decide to blame for your irrational decisions. As long as it is someone other than yourself, I guess.

            As long as you are happy, that is all that matters.

            Sorry you feel I am to blame. And sorry you feel the need to attack me at every opportunity. I would have thought you would be pleased. Apparently not. Oh well....... lol

            Maybe you could invent some more meaningless drivel to post in the science forum? Would that make you feel better? lol

            1. profile image0
              sandra rinckposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              No, it has more to do with how you like to suggest for me what I believe or the relentless badgering over things that you, yourself assert are "personal attacks" on you.

              Maybe it has more to do with the way you portray "atheism" then it does with atheism itself.

              Maybe it is how you simply feel that there is anyone to blame or that blame is actually the answer or the reason instead what I said meaning you are part of the big picture for the reasons I believe what I do today being the exact opposite of a couple years ago.

              I don't think anyone really enjoys being grouped together in generalized categorizes and not being recognized as an individual but that isn't something I think you can really understand unless it is to say that you do a pretty fine job of recognizing yourself as the individual being "personally attacked" when all I did was group you into a generalized category which really has no boundary other then to say "part" of the reason.

              However attacked you feel, I think is an expression of how you feel about your own self.  But even if I said I am sorry for making you feel that way, from all I know of you, the only thing you are likely to say is..

              See what irrational beliefs do or something of the sort.  But you would get pretty annoyed if I said the same thing to you yet, I don't feel personally offended by you.

              I really don't know how anyone could.

              So, I am sorry that you feel like I blame you or that what I said or say is a personal attack.  That is not my intention, never was, never is.

              But you do play a "part" in why I went the other way.  As in you are to me, a part of the bigger picture.  Nothing personal.

              smile

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Hmmm. Semantics. I love it when religionists do that. Nothing personal or anything. wink

                He is watching you.

  48. Andrew0208 profile image61
    Andrew0208posted 7 years ago

    This is so common, "identity crisis." These outstanding entities; "Man" and "Spirit" should be known and understood properly in their various concepts respectively, it will help us know the true identity.

  49. Andrew0208 profile image61
    Andrew0208posted 7 years ago

    @poster, who is Jesus now to you regarding your question?

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      God.  Though it is not because Jesus was resurrected from the dead, not because He promises everlasting life in the Kingdom of Heaven or Paradise on Earth, not because He makes miracles happen, not because others believe He is God for their reasons.  Not because I fear Him, not because He answers my prayer, not because of the things I have seen or the things said about Him and not because the Bible tells me so.

      I believe Jesus is God for a lot of reasons and to explain them all right here would be doing Jesus an injustice. smile However my top 7 reasons for believing He is God are:

      1) love
      2) hearing
      3) sight
      4) spirit
      5) love
      6) love
      7) love

  50. profile image0
    Gods Gardenposted 7 years ago

    I beleive in the Holy Trinity!

    1. AEvans profile image70
      AEvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Me too!!!

 
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