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If Christians can't even agree... how could anyone else?

  1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    How can a Christian think the Bible is absolute when not even all Christians believe the same thing or read the same Bible?
    Why are there 'Versions' of the bible?
    Why are there so many 'Versions' of Christianity? (Lutheran, First Presbyterian, Church of God, Latter day Saints, Mormons, Catholics...etc etc etc)

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Easy.

      They all made an assumption based on zero knowledge.

      But - if you cannot disprove it - it must be correct. Right? Guess they all use that argument. huh? lol

    2. Jerami profile image76
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        My opinion to the original question.
        Disclaimer....  This is only my  opinion. I don't want anyone to believe anything expressed if they do not want to.
        There was only one form of Christianity (Religions definition)for a 1000 years, and it  ruled over the kings.
         Martin Luther exposed many of their Flaws. He established another religion, keep the same foundation but made what he thought was the necessary modifications.
         During the centuries that followed, Others saw what they received as flaws in the new system and the previous process was repeated; repeatedly.  This is how the diffrent denominations have come about.

         Just because a system was established that professes to honor  Jesus, but does this in a less than honorable way, does not take anything away from the honor that Jesus is due.

    3. AdeleCosgroveBray profile image90
      AdeleCosgroveBrayposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      To return to the original question...




      Church history readily explains why different versions of the Bible exist.  At the first Council of Nicea much dogma was decided upon, as described here:
      http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html

      Many texts were rejected from those submitted for inclusion in the first Bible.  These became known as the Apocrypha, as described here: http://www.interfaith.org/christianity/apocrypha/

      Church history goes on to describe various subsequent editings of the Bible, and also how translations also altered meanings or words and phrases, which has lead to a confusion (accidental or otherwise) of dogma.

      As for the different sects within Xtianity, again a study of Church history will reveal how they came about.

    4. aguasilver profile image87
      aguasilverposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "How can a Christian think the Bible is absolute when not even all Christians believe the same thing or read the same Bible?"

      All professing Christians do believe the same thing, check any SoF (Statement of Faith)on most Christian sites and you will find unity of belief over all essential points:

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      The Apostles' Creed

      I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

      And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

      I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.


      ------------------------------------------------------------

      In reality anyone who does not accept that basic creed is seen as not a Christian, as defined by the majority viewpoints.

      According to the traditional church, they have a different Christ to the vast majority of the 2.5 - 3 billion believers alive today, and who have ever lived on earth.

      That does not make them wrong, two famous heretics in their time were Jesus Christ and Martin Luther, both called heretics by those who ran the religions of their time, even Wesley was regarded as 'off' by the Anglicans, and he supported them all of his life!

      Too often writers here confuse the Visible Church for the body of Christ, they often concur, but often do not.

      God has hidden His people in amongst all the tares, hirelings and phonies that like to play church to feel good, who go to church to pay their insurance policy, or do business, or because that's how you get elected.

      It's a good way to ensure that no Antichrist can round up your remnant in one fell swoop.

      Why are there 'Versions' of the bible?

      Most serious believers use one off two versions, either the Douay Rheims or the King James for biblical study.

      I use a Greek Hebrew Interlinea bible as well as the NIV (when quoting to secular folk) and like the Amplified.... The Message is a disaster for study, but brought me back to the bible once when I was having a dry patch with my KJ.

      Why are there so many news channels on your satellite?

      Why are there so many 'Versions' of Christianity? (Lutheran, First Presbyterian, Church of God, Latter day Saints, Mormons, Catholics...etc etc etc)

      OK.... I study my bible and gain a certain amount of knowledge from it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, lets say that there are 500 points that make up the bible (for example only) and I manage to correctly discern the truth by diligent prayer, contemplation and study in (say) 350 points out of the 500.

      So that leaves me with 150 points I have not yet secured in faith, but probably have an opinion on.

      My revelation attracts a band of followers who join 'my' church and learn from what I tell them, 70% of which is demonstrably truth to them. They accept my take on the 150 items I cannot truly vouch for, because I'm such a great bible teacher.

      Down the road another man of God has also been studying, and he has 300 points of truth, meaning that he sees 200 things from a less than truth perspective.

      Possibly we agree on our 300 mutual truths, but equally he may have less than my 350 truths, but his 300 truths may cover 50 of the 150 I'm missing...

      We both die eventually and our roles as head of the church are taken over by folk who mean well but have only ever understood OUR truths, not discerned them for them self (after all, I, the great man of God was never wrong was I?)and soon they are decalring that THEY ALONE hold ALL truth, and my neighbour down the roads Church are HERETICS for believing as they do....

      ....and Satan slip's out of the side vestry door laughing like a drain, and puts these sort of questions into people minds and the forums to stir up as much dissension as he may.

      No that's not an attack at you Mikel, we all fall for Satan's wiles on occasions, and we all waste valuable time arguing about what we disagree upon rather than establishing what we do agree upon.

      May peace fall upon our discussions.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Versions of the 'creed'

        We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

        We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.  Through him all things were made.  For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.  For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.  On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

        We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father.  With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.  We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.  We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.  We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.  Amen
        ___________________________

        I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth,
        and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
        Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary,
        suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.  He descended into hell.

        The third day He arose again from the dead.
        He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
        whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

        I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
        the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,
        the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

        Amen.

        ______________________

        Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith.  Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.  And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.

        For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.  But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

        Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.  The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.  The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

        The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.  And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.

        As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible.  So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty.  And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

        So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.  And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

        So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord.  And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

        For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.

        The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten.  The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten.  The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

        So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

        And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

        He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.

        Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.  For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.  For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.  He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead.  At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.  And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

        This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

        ________________________________________

        ???

        1. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          But Mikel, if you read them (and that's a chore in itself) they all contain the pertinent information and requirements, albeit the RCC version reads like all the other duff contracts I have ever been forced to read, written by legalists with a committee of policy makers on their shoulders!

          Interestingly the only one mentioning hell is the RCC version!

          What say you?

          John

      2. C.V.Rajan profile image69
        C.V.Rajanposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I liked your explanation on how different versions came about.

    5. drej2522 profile image87
      drej2522posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      eh, I'm not very religious but I think your attacking the wrong angle here. No two people think a like on any topic much less a religion.

      ...It would be like asking how can evolutionists think that the big bang theory is absolute when not all evolutionists believe the same thing or research the same topic.

      Interpretation is just that...interpretation.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Do some reading outside "the good book" maybe? lol No scientist sets out to learn new information to discredit religion, it is a by-product! lol

        1. drej2522 profile image87
          drej2522posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          ummm, what? How about you READ what I say before you suggest what I read! Or rather, understand what I'm saying before you make an assumption of what I have or have not read. lol

          I was giving an example of how NOT to attack people's interpretation. Key word interpretation...maybe I should say that again...INTERPRETATION...I wasn't saying what scientists believe or what people of the "good book" believe.

          The topic of this discussion was how could Christians believe the bible is absolute, even though all Christians don't believe the same thing. My argument is that everyone's INTERPRETATION is going to be different no matter what the topic is...even science...

          Is this clear??? lol

          1. BL Tween profile image60
            BL Tweenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            They do believe the same thing, there is One God the creator. He made everything, He has always been there he will always be there. He is a good God and a fair God.

            He gave everyone, every person on the earth two things. The first being their life, the second being 24 hours in a day.

            What each of us chooses to do with these are "our gift to Him" our gift to one another.

            Each of us has a purpose, a mission, it is up to us to accept the mission. We don’t have to and if we chose not to, He does not squash us, although He can.

            We will never know the difference we could have made in the world.

            I dare to say that many who would have been helped by us . . .

            All the rest is stuff, He doesn’t care about money, it all belongs to Him. He only cares about it because we care about it so much. He says the LOVE OF MONEY is the root to all evil. Not that money itself is evil.

    6. SEO IT! profile image84
      SEO IT!posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      First of all, Christians are only human and humans always have their own way of interpreting things. We usually interpret according to what benefits US or falls in line with intellectual presets. wink

      My own interpretations (probably affected by presets and self-serving beliefs...):

      I believe that when it all comes down to Judgement day, people are going to be surprised to see how many Catholics, Protestants, Presbyterians, Jews, and more end up in Heaven.

    7. Jerami profile image76
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

         We caint stop argueing cause if the truth came up and bit us on the but we wouldn't be able to see the diffrence between it and a tick.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        that may be true...

        http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/rolling.gif

        1. Jerami profile image76
          Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

             I realy think it is true and I also wonder about my vision sometimes also??   
            My bath is ready so I am goina go hose off a days worth of  dirt.  will look back in in a little bit.

    8. profile image60
      Rainonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      There are so many religions because division is the best way to keep christians apart.
      I believe the whole Bible what ever we need for the life God will provide. Even if the Buble was translated with some mistakes I can't not follow He is God and we are His children.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Which Bible?

      2. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        No, I think they separated into different religions in attempt to individualize. It's hard to individualize when you read from the same book and use the same agendas. How are any different from Christians when they share belief in Christ?

        1. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          yip. i agree.
          same as scientific & logical 'religions'.
          they all 'read' from the same material but sub-classify themselves into individual organizations.

    9. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Too many interpretations. Plus the tunnel vision. Instead of seeking truth to see if what they believe is correct, they shut their eyes and turn their heads.
      Anyone truly wanting to know God would keep an open mind and continue to learn. They feel that at the moment of (what they call) "SALVATION" they suddenly know all there is to know and everyone else is deceived. Sadly so.

    10. terced ojos profile image71
      terced ojosposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Hey Mikel I have been a Christian for 24 years and I have never heard an adequate explanation for this question either.  I am a non-denominational Christian but I have many questions regarding my own particular denomination.  I will tell you that what is most important is that we seek truth regardless of where it leads us.  I am not afraid to be wrong or unsure about my belief system. I think the best advice any Christian of any denomination could give you is to choose the good things from the bible that you read and leave the rest.

    11. weightlossprogram profile image60
      weightlossprogramposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Hi,


      there are not different versions of the Bible, but it is translated into different versions of English. It is just like translated it into a different language, the basic meaning remains the same regardless the version

    12. hanging out profile image59
      hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      It is not that they disagree. Not like some people do, but they see their version. The word of god has been revealed throughout time as God has seen fit to reveal it. The disciples of christ, the early church is functioning strong in believers today, catholicism did not hurt it. Catholicism did a lot of damage but did not end what jesus started. Not at all. Many branches of belief came out of the catholic church, each with its own revelated knowledge that some chose to adopt and some did not, for whatever reasons, perhaps ungodly i will not speculate.
      For example. To the baptist church was revealed, baptism by immersion as opposed to catholic sprinkling, so there was a split and a branch occured, in the 90s pentecostalism was born by the revelation of the holy spirit baptism and speaking in tongues, the baptists did not want to recognize this and so another branch was born. Today in the world many are not teaching against sin and some churches definitely agree its the cornerstone of jesus teachings, hence, for selfish reasons some churches will not develop properly.
      Its kinda like the way many branches of physics occured, each studying along it separate and independant, yet seemingly along the same course because of a tidbit or a tweak of scientific knowledge which led to a different classification.

  2. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    Many versions of Christianity?
    Money.

    1. TheGlassSpider profile image82
      TheGlassSpiderposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Well said!

    2. Rod Marsden profile image79
      Rod Marsdenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Money? Yes if you equate money with power and power with politics.

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        and what religion is about, if not ?

  3. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    So you think all the splits are about money?

    1. marinealways24 profile image60
      marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      and control.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        So wouldn't a logical person assume then that if all the splits are about money and power that only the first was truly about faith? The rest are fake?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          But logically - if you cannot disprove it - it must be correct. lol

          1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
            Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            if you cannot disprove it, it must also be 'possible'

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              So what is your problem? They are all possible. And an infinite number of them. lol lol lol lol lol

              You should not discard any of them.

              1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Why do you assume I have a problem? I am simply asking questions...

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  So you accept all of them. Why need to ask a question? Of course you cannot agree. Why would you need to? And why ask a question?

                  You don't actually want an answer do you? lol

                  1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Have you been drinking?

            2. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
              Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              *If you cannot disprove it, you must accept that it may also be possibly correct...*

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Sho dun.

                Infinite number of possible gods.

                Infinite:1 that they are correct.

                Sho nuf. Possible lol lol

                .........................

              2. profile image60
                (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                That's not the way people "think" as you then can bring in anything the imagination can conjure.

                Anything is "possible" but if you can't demonstrate it to exist, then it probably doesn't exist. You'd have to search every square inch of the universe to confirm it doesn't exist, but if it does exist on the other side of the universe, it may not affect us anyways.

                Claims need to be demonstrated, Mikel. Not the other way round.

                1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I agree, even claims of the NON-existence...

                  1. profile image60
                    (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Like unicorns and leprechauns and invisible pink dragons that live in my attic?

                  2. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    LOL

                    Semantics. You agree and then say you do not.

                    Why is that?

                    Burden of proof is yours sunshine. You are the one making the claim. You don't make the claim - no one says "nonsense." wink

                    Now prove the Easter Bunny does not exist.

        2. marinealways24 profile image60
          marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I think a logical person would assume that if there is so much different interpretation and lies created for personal agendas, that it was a lie to start with.

          1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
            Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            That what was a lie to start with?

            1. marinealways24 profile image60
              marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

              The creation of religion.

              1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Ok to me the creation of religion is the act of two or more people coming to the same conclusion about something unprovable...

                The creation of a religious dogma ... is what we are talking about here.

                1. marinealways24 profile image60
                  marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  What do you mean, they both start the same way.

    2. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes.
      If you study those religions, you'll see they practically belief the same things. Jesus Christ and God. The same commandments, the same Bible.
      The only differences are small details.
      and if you see all that TV pastors... What do you think that's all about?
      and I'm not going to name the Churches, but they're all oozing money.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Why are there 'Versions' of the bible?

        I think your correct about many of the pastors TV or not, many of these people are just in it for the money. So I don't really have anything to add to your comment besides there being many versions of the bibles... and those are just the christian ones...
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_En … anslations

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          but the many versions of the Bible, is the same Bible,where the only thing that differs is the way of writing.

      2. profile image0
        Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I agree with you Tantrum smile

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          thanks crazd !
          I think it's all about money.

          1. profile image0
            Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Sadly it is true sad I mean have you SEEN a lot of the churches these days? they are all HUGE and extravagoent and all that. it's disgusting. they may give money to the poor but...not much I'm afraid which makes my heart break sad

  4. profile image0
    Miss Takeposted 7 years ago

    good question.  hard to know the answers to these questions.  I think study of the bible, is the only way to find out the answers, certainly a lot of confusion out there.  Mormons are Latter day saints aren't they.  Not all religions are after your money.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Which Bible?

  5. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    He's not answering my post.
    so I think he's not interested.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Do you mean me ?

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes.
        I post my reply ages ago, but you were more interested in arguing with MK

    2. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Of course not. He cannot disprove you, therefore you are possible. lol

      This is called "freethinking" lol

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        People in this forum only reply to me ,when I'm fighting or joking.
        lol

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Maybe you should change your avatar? wink

          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            lol

            Maybe a Monalisa ?

  6. jfreemon profile image61
    jfreemonposted 7 years ago

    Whoa. Calm down there, I see a lot of baseless thought being thrown around here.

    The different versions of Christianity exist because of different human ideals (note ideals, not ideas). For example, Martin Luther's 99 Thesis was one such paper that described the difference in ideals.

    for the most part, the different books should exist to tell the same thing. Sadly, they don't always get accepted as such.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      But if these books are absolute truths as the Christians say they are, why are there differences in them, why are they not all the same one book?

      1. profile image0
        Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Like minds don't always think a like. Take a fiction book on the same topic like flowers and a picnic....not everyone will think or write about the same thing. The same goes for the Bible and the many versions, many writers, different ideas, different versions.

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Different beliefs/ different faiths?

          1. profile image0
            Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Different thought process and what they think God meant which made the different beliefs and faiths in my opinion

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
              Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Ok but my original question was...
              If Christians can't agree then how could anyone else?

              1. profile image0
                Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Sadly no one can agree on one thing Christian or otherwise...as you can see here you can a huge range of answers and that is because everyone thinks differently. No two ppl have the same thought and they read the bible or any book differently from the person beside them. Everyone will always think differently and accept different ways or beiefes because that is how their brains just work. Sometimes yes some will agree but for the most part...different thought processes all around

                1. earnestshub profile image87
                  earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  ... and as well as that, brain chemistry can change deeply held beliefs! smile Gets real complicated then! lol

                2. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Ok so if no one agrees, then how can Christians say that anything is correct? How can they claim that the answers are in the bibles?

                  1. profile image0
                    Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Because that is what they believe. they think that their bible is the right one and close their minds to other people's beliefs or what others say

    2. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I thought 'Christian ideals' were all the same ?

    3. profile image60
      The Paulposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      How can you strike upon such a telling truth and remain in the dark!?

      They represent different human ideals.  Not the ideals of some alien power, the ideals of humans.

      ...and pretty backwards, primitive, cruel humans at that.

  7. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    The two biggies, the bible and quoran both run a psychotic text of murder and hate, all of it regurgitated from previous beliefs and modified to create more fear of the unknown in order to control the ignorant, and through constant indoctrination continue to do so today! lol

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I think I've heard that somewhere before???

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        .. and I expect you will hear it again... it is simply the truth. smile

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Well... it is what you believe to be the truth... and you make sure that anyone and everyone hears what you believe to be the truth in every religious forum thread created... I wonder if that is out of a fear that someone may come to the conclusion that 'the sky fairy' really exists or if your just so bored that repeating the same thing over and over is the funnest thing in your life?

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            You started most of the threads!!!
            Talk about blind to self! Hilarious! lol

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
              Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              The fact that my religious talk threads are posted in the religious forum is odd to you because??? What I find odd is someone that doesn't believe in religion hanging out in the religion forum threads....

              1. earnestshub profile image87
                earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I am part of the non religious part of the religious! smile I thought it was obvious that many on these forums do not follow your god exactly how you would like them to. Whinging about it won't change anything though! lol.

                1. earnestshub profile image87
                  earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I am constantly entertained by the extent of credibility required to believe in a sky fairy who is gonna fry anyone who does not believe in it! Bloody hilarious! lol

                2. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  If I went to every 'Atheism' thread spouting off about how they were all going to hell because they didn't believe what I believed then I would be just like you Earnest coming to the religious thread spouting off about how stupid one has to be to believe in a 'Sky Fairy'... You do yourself no credit by becoming as bad as those you hate so much... you are an atheist-bible thumper....repeating and repeating the same dogma over and over and over...

                  1. earnestshub profile image87
                    earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    You know of any atheist forums with hundreds of threads here do you?
                    lol lol

                  2. earnestshub profile image87
                    earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    No, atheists do not bother with making threads trying to support a belief that needs no support at all! smile

  8. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    When people use logic they can perfectly agree.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Can but many times don't.
      An example:
      my logic leads me to the belief that God exists, your logic leads you to the belief that God doesn't exist. Since there is no emperical proof either way  either of us could be correct and even though we both have used sound logic we have come to opposite conclusions.

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think believing in a god you can't see or be in contact with, is logical.

      2. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        No empirical evidence either way? lol

  9. profile image0
    Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago

    Heya earnest how ya been?

    Hey jearmi..cool new pic! Did you take that one yourself?

    1. Jerami profile image76
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Hi crazdwriter . Earnest.  Yea that is the view I see when I walk around the back corner of my house. Been intending to switch out several other views but have been too lazy.

      1. profile image0
        Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        that is so cool. Looks really peaceful and serene I love it! big_smile

        1. Jerami profile image76
          Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

             Thank you. I enjoy it. You can't see the 12'X 12' upper deck with 12X16 lower deck just off the left of the pic. There is also a 12X20  kiddie pool in the center of the pic. It's all homemade except for the trees. I spend all my free time out there when it is warm enough.

          1. profile image0
            Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Sounds almost like paradise smile

  10. Jerami profile image76
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Crazdwriter....Sounds almost like paradise.

    Jerami said...  Probably as close as I'm going to get in this life. It doesn't feel like paradise when I'm rakeing the leaves that fall off of approx 100 big oak and pine trees.

    1. profile image0
      Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      yikes how many oak trees? OOO yea that ain't fun...but hey you could always be a big kid and jump in the piles big_smile though yea you have to clean up afterwards but wouldn't it be worth it? big_smile

      1. Jerami profile image76
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          It is worth all the raking when summertime comes and grand kids are playing out side. Usually have a southerly breeze blowing through the house. Except for a Couple of months in summer and a couple in winter the doors and windows are always open. I love it even the raking.

        1. profile image0
          Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Sounds so relaxing there...what state are you in again?

  11. Jerami profile image76
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    I think that we all know the answer to the questions that we ask, or at least think that we do. Most of us  really would like to hear an diffrent point of view that we can also agree with, expanding our own views.

  12. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    @ mikel

    By what I see, you love getting in arguments with Atheists.
    So, everybody's the same here. You're no better.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      No actually I don't, You could say that if I were going to Atheists threads and spouting off about religion... But since I restrict my religious conversations to religious forums... that kind of means I go where like minded people probably are... no?

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        everybody can post in the religion forums.
        and if you don't like Atheists in them, why do you get engaged in arguments with them ?
        lol

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I didnt say I don't like atheists I said I get tired of the constant repetitive arguments.

          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Believers constant repetitive arguments don't bother Atheists it seem. We're still here !
            lol

            1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
              Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Evidently it bothers you alot, your always haning out in church? or the online equivelent of it.

              1. tantrum profile image60
                tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                That's a typical 'Christian' answer lol
                How can that kind of belief can bother me ? .
                Really !
                When something bothers me, I look the other way.

                I find religious forums very entertaining.  The answers, the attitudes, the anger.
                Interesting !

                1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                  Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm not a christian...
                  the anger and good arguements about the facts and logic I agree is entertaining, but when it is the same conversation over and over and over again, no that just feels childish.

  13. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    All the forum is childish
    I find it quite refreshing
    Like being a child again.
    lol

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      good for you.

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes! good for me.
        I'm a happy person.
        And as I said in other thread, old enough to laugh at life.

        1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Me too...  big_smile

          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Good for you too, then !
            big_smile

  14. Jerami profile image76
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    I have always been able to "see" the point of view that others have if I agree or not. I can usually understand why someone wants to beat me up though I can never agree with them doing it. If we do not try to understand why people believe the way that they do there will never be unity.

       And Crazdwriter ...  just out side of Houston.  Sorry for the delay.  I get a lot of phone calls that take me away from the computer.

  15. profile image0
    Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago

    oooo someone is popular lol.. and very cool. Never been Texas yet though I do have a sis-in-law who lives in Texas and sadly 2 exes lol

    1. Ron Montgomery profile image59
      Ron Montgomeryposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Alllllll
      My Exes
      Live in Texas.......

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Now I cant quit singing that song....lol

        1. profile image0
          Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          lol yea now it's stuck in my head too LMAO Thanks Ron!

      2. marinealways24 profile image60
        marinealways24posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Palin

    2. Jerami profile image76
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        are you were talking to me?
      If you was that popular remark was funny.
      I moved here in 76 and felt like I was home again.
      Where are you from?

      1. profile image0
        Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Oh sorry for not putting your name Jerami and yes I was talking to you big_smile I live in Anaheim Cali for now...moving down to Ocieanside hopefully soon! *fingers crossed* hubby and I have put in bids to two different places.

  16. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    Palin?

  17. marinealways24 profile image60
    marinealways24posted 7 years ago

    She is a nice little Christian.

  18. Jerami profile image76
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    @Crazdwriter I'll cross my fingers too for you. 
    My computer is very slow, and I think and type even slower.
      I'll be hoseing off in a few and laying back.
      I might get back on afterwards  but if I don't ...
    Good night   Yaul

  19. profile image0
    Crazdwriterposted 7 years ago

    thanks Jerami! Have one for me too big_smile and ttyl

  20. Eaglekiwi profile image74
    Eaglekiwiposted 7 years ago

    Who said Christians must agree?

    No we are all Individuals  smile

  21. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    There are thousands of different religions in the world, and in the vast majority of cases people follow the dominant faith of the culture they were born into. Is it not arrogant and self-centred to think that your faith is the "true" one and all the others are false? smile

    1. aguasilver profile image87
      aguasilverposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Not in the least Earnest, indeed if I could think for one minute that what I believed was not true and therefore all others false, then I would have a very weak faith in a very weak religion.

      The ONE defining factor about Christ is that He stated that HE was THE only way.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The bible stated that someone else stated that he was the only one.
        Would you then discard the god of the old testament that is spoken of in the new? Or is Jesus still a part of the trinity?

        1. aguasilver profile image87
          aguasilverposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Earnest, well you know they are the same, yes they are the trinity, no most folk do not understand that... the bible stated:

          John 14:6

          Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

          and

          Matthew 21:23

          “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

          Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

          And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

          Next?

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            That's your answer????

            1. aguasilver profile image87
              aguasilverposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              What answer were you expecting?????

  22. regality profile image60
    regalityposted 7 years ago

    my hub might help: http://hubpages.com/hub/God-in-my-Living

    I'm interested in a runnning debate. Anyone who got arguments with my article, you can drop off a comment.

  23. M Cassian profile image61
    M Cassianposted 7 years ago

    To those who believe,

    Christ said in Matthew 10:34-37, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me."

    God knew and knows that because of our human nature we will not all agree. He who speaks outright about his faith in Christ WILL BE MET WITH OPPOSITION, and that opposition can come from ANYWHERE. It is an inevitable fact. It is also said that the one being that is to unify the earth into one "belief" is the Antichrist. So do not seek to solve this separation of the denominations. People are stubborn and prideful (even christians, catholics, mormons, etc.), and you will solve nothing. The simple fact of the matter is this, "Preach the Gospel; if necessary, use words." This is a statement which I am still learning to actively practice myself. Grace be with you!

  24. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago

    "Preach the Gospel; if nessessary, use words."

    I really like that - thanks for sharing it smile Holly

    1. Unchained Grace profile image61
      Unchained Graceposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Words are always good, but frankly they've lost their impact with some who've heard one word too many from those who did not
      have their salvation or best interests in mind. Rather, skip the words and just "Be the message."

      1. M Cassian profile image61
        M Cassianposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        That is completely true. Jesus never said, "Talk people out of their sin and into belief." He said, "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And love your neighbor as yourself." And what is love? A VERB!

    2. M Cassian profile image61
      M Cassianposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Not a problem, Holly. wink But to give credit where credit is due, it is not my own original phrase. It was actually coined by a Catholic Priest. Who exactly I am not sure. But C.S. Lewis is known to quote this.

      Grace be with you!

      1. Rod Marsden profile image79
        Rod Marsdenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        If words are so unimportant why bother with a holy book at all?

        1. h.a.borcich profile image60
          h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I think it means that our lives, the way we live, should "speak" what we believe.

      2. h.a.borcich profile image60
        h.a.borcichposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Long ago I heard a sermon that boiled down to this...If being a christian became a crime, would there be enough evidence to convict you?
        Another sermon posed this qurstion...If all the words were removed from your lips, what would your life say about you, your faith?
        This phrase struck me much the same, and thanks for the origin:) God Bless, Holly

  25. Rod Marsden profile image79
    Rod Marsdenposted 7 years ago

    As to the many versions of the Bible and why there are many ways of worship  through the bible...well, in terms of history it is a long story.

    We can start with the fact that not all the Christian documents that could have made it into the Bible made it in. The Gnostic Christians were the first group to have a go at creating a combination old and new testament. It forced the Catholics into creating their own combination old and new testament which, putting the many versions of it aside for a moment, has pretty much come down to us as the universally accepted Bible. The Gnostic Bible lost favor when Catholicism not only spread but got the Roman emperor's blessing (so to speak). So politics and the bible were there together from the start.

    When the Gutenberg Bible saw print and it eventually became possible for everyone to be able to afford a bible the result was not only more demand for bibles but also bibles printed in the languages of the people. These languages of the people Bibles were frowned upon by the Catholic clergy and laws were passed to ban them but it was, and is, hard to keep the printed word down for long.

    The English got a number of English word versions of the Bible but it was the King James version that became the official version. It was based to some extent on earlier English and Latin versions but there were changes. The most memorable I have is: 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.' One of the truer, earlier versions had these lines as: 'Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live.' The difference cost people their lives. King James was obsessed with witchcraft and had even written a book about it. Changing the line from poisoner to witch probably didn't seem like such a big deal to the scholar who did it. He was just catering to the King's interests, that's all.

    In recent decades a new version of the King James bible emerged. In it there are a number of rewrites. The one I find most disturbing goes: 'My cup is full'. It should read: 'My cup overflows'. There is a technical difference between the two ideas. How easy is it to believe in the word when they change the word like this? How can you believe in the bible when someone insists on moving the goal posts?

    The Protestant movement saw the biggest change in how we view the bible. Martin Luther insisted that every sermon should be taken from and reflect something that was actually in the bible. Modern bible studies began from there.

  26. profile image0
    Miss Takeposted 7 years ago

    love, kindness, goodness faith, mildness,, self control................... needed in these forums created by god, now you have it tantrum.

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Really, Brenda?
      lol

  27. profile image0
    Miss Takeposted 7 years ago

    well maybe you have had it all along, we will never know

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      you will never know, Brenda.
      Why all the trolls ?
      Are you having fun ?

  28. profile image0
    Miss Takeposted 7 years ago

    fun...... not much fun, as the questions in these threads seem to be pretty much the same from time to time.  Are you having fun.

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      For me life is a joke. So, yes. I'm having fun. Always

      1. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The cosmic joke implies ultimate understanding of ones self and god represented by the laughing Buddha.

  29. profile image0
    Miss Takeposted 7 years ago

    life is a joke, that is a great way to be....

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      At least it's healthy.
      Lots of laughs ! lol

  30. profile image0
    poetlorraineposted 7 years ago

    yep much healthier to laugh than cry, i agree with that Tantrum, you look healthy too

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      "As much as I laugh, I must cry,
      Simple rules of this game before I die."

      Laugh at ones belief in god?
      On a religious forum ?
      Strange way to entertain oneself, sadistic and cruel.

      1. profile image0
        poetlorraineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        are you for real or what.....

        1. Cagsil profile image60
          Cagsilposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          lol lol lol

  31. Has_aWayWithWords profile image78
    Has_aWayWithWordsposted 7 years ago

    I see th problem as being one of organized religion personally. What I mean is that each organization is ran like a business, therefore in orer to maintain its congregation and maintain its church and function it must generate followers and revenue. This method breeds cmpetition and competition means you have to have someting to promote as better or different from others. This creates different beliefs and different views of similar issues. I persnally believe in god and religion but I do not participate in organized religion which dictates one belief is right while others are wrong, acceptance and forgiveness are the 2 points that I believe in and many religious organizations do nothing to promote these 2 core values

  32. profile image60
    The Paulposted 7 years ago

    Eventually the majority of scientists can, of course, come to an agreement on a topic.  The real world is real.  Whether or not a particular scientist's theories are correct, there exists some correct explanation for whatever phenomenon they are investigating.

    As long as all researchers in the field are honestly seeking that one, true, account and are uncompromised by political or corporate agendas, they will agree more and more are the state of knowledge advances and the average understanding moves closer and closer to the true nature of what they are investigating.

    Religions on the other hand, have no core converge on.  They have mythologies and what the last generation of believers held to be true.  They don't search for the true nature of any real phenomenon, they seek the most palatable and approachable interpretation of a god.  A god who can one-up all the other gods.  What is palatable or acceptable is only a matter of opinion, and not grounded in any objective truth, so instead of converging they separate into ever-more sects and churches, fracture along the lines of virtually every question their society faces.

  33. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    Some of what you say in that has a truth in it.
    though i would point out that any organization does the same.
    no matter the phenomena/myth/idea.

    the majority of religions can agree on a topic, the world is real.

    religion is a very well organized system, many varied approaches and no less with regard to proofs, solutions, experimentation.

    science is a very well organized system, many varied approaches
    and no less with regard to proofs, solutions, experimentation.

    both have ideologies, both have opinions, both have artifact and conjecture, myth and lore.

    yet both appear to be searching for 'the truth'. Why? Why are they searching? What is this 'truth' they are otherwise obsessed with? hmmm.

    this puts on a covering of one of the longest running philosophical arguments called: Duality.
    one side the logical scientist, the other the emotional romanticist. the endless parlor dance.
    some years ago, a handful of "Fillies" (my nickname for philosophers) agreed that together the two formed an unimaginable Quality and thus together 'created' a new age of consideration.

    The wedding of the millennium...

    1. profile image60
      The Paulposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You're going to convince yourself you understand an awful lot and never come to understand anything if you keep thinking like this.

      I'm aware at some point in the past it became popular and "enlightened" to pretend everything was the same as everything else, to look at two sides of any issue and declare the differences are illusions.

      But it's all nothing more than a giant exercise in the middle ground fallacy.  People can simply be wrong.  They often are.  And feeling very strongly about something doesn't improve your odds of being right.

      Religion doesn't search for the truth, it decides what a pleasant truth would be, and searches for ways to convince people that's the case.

      And so if I say, "Name one good thing produced by religion that couldn't have been produced without it," no one will be able to give me an example, because nothing has ever been discovered by the methods religion applies.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        My Faith in something greater than my self. The comfort I recieve because of my Faith in something greater than myself.

        1. profile image60
          The Paulposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Anyone can dedicate themselves to a cause, rationalize the problems in their life, or do whatever else it is you mean by that, exactly.  Religion trains people to think these things come from it so that they will be scared to give it up, the people who've given it up recognize the lie.

          Maybe your religion gives you comfort, but it's a sad thing if you believe your faith is the only thing that could have produced that comfort.

          1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
            Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            You assume WAY to much. That is a SAD thing. Your belief is the lie not mine. You may call my unfounded belief a lie when you prove your belief, which you cannot do, so accept the fact that there is a 50/50 chance that I'm right. Your question was what do I get from religion, if you don't like the answers don't ask the question...

            1. profile image60
              The Paulposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              It's not an assumption on my part, people of every belief, including godless beliefs find meaning and purpose and manage to struggle through the opposition they face in their lives.  Religion can't really be the source of it, because it happens for everyone, religious or not.

              1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
                Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                So if I eat chicken soup and get full it can't have been the chicken soup because lots of people get full and they aren't eating chicken soup? (and it is an assumption on your part.)

  34. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    well, let's reverse he polarity:

    Name one good thing produced by SCIENCE that couldn't have been produced without it," no one will be able to give me an example, because nothing has ever been discovered by the methods SCIENCE applies.


    science is just another archetype of an inadequate theoretical system.

    science: logic (though I will dispute that indefinitely) the other religion: mystic (though I will dispute that as well)

    As aforementioned, both are illogical/irrational and both deny the truth they seek, the spirit, yet adamantly and, to a certain degree, violently, proclaim that the true nature of the human being is not spirit.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Heart Surgery.

      You assume science and spirituality are opposition, they are not... one is the left hand the other the right. Neither are illogical/irrational both seek the truth. Neither state that the human condition is not one of a spiritual being. I quote from my beliefs(my religion):  -WE ARE NOT HUMAN BEINGS HAVING A SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE...  WE ARE SPIRITUAL BEINGS, HAVING A HUMAN EXPERIENCE.

      ...without proof to the contrary anything is possible...

      In order to change my beliefs you must provide proof that prove your beliefs.

    2. profile image60
      The Paulposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Sure, let's.



      Sanitation, vaccines, antibiotics, modern agriculture, and global communications including the very device you're using to make your ludicrous claims.

      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        so you're saying all those things were created by science and could not have been made without them???
        who is ludicrous now...

        1. profile image60
          The Paulposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You.

          1. tantrum profile image60
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            lol

          2. profile image0
            Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            lol.
            typical...

            your scientific ritual no more impressive than your religious brothers. you both need each other.

            even to this: your experiments have killed human, animal, plant and insect to prove yourself true. Oddly, so have your half-brothers in the name of religion.

            welcome to your duality.

            enjoy the porch.

            1. tantrum profile image60
              tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              the porch ?
              lol

              Why not the terrace ?

            2. profile image60
              The Paulposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Have you actually got anything to say? 

              Besides the word "being" in italics, I mean.

              1. tantrum profile image60
                tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                And 'porch'
                lol

  35. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
    Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago

    If I'm understanding you correctly...
    I agree that each persons view of the world (or of truth) is affected by their individual perspective. Some people decide what is right and wrong by what is convient for them, or what is easiest. But most, in my humble opinion, do not use that as the basis for discovering truth.

    I'm not sure what you mean by presets ...

    from the Oxford online dictionary

      • verb (presetting; past and past part. preset) set (a value that controls the operation of a device) in advance of its use.

    from Merriam Webster:

    Main Entry: 1pre·set
    Pronunciation: \ˈprē-ˌset\
    Function: transitive verb
    Inflected Form(s): pre·set; pre·set·ting
    Date: 1929
    : to set in advance

    1. SEO IT! profile image84
      SEO IT!posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      As far as using it to discover truth? More people do that than should!

      When I say "presets", I refer to the belief already set in the mind. Most of us have a tendency to set out to prove according to what we already believe, rather than keep an open mind. While I try to keep an open mind, I am aware that there are times I allow what I have "preset" to cloud my judgment. I personally know people who don't look an inch beyond the end of their own nose and "learn" from within that limited scope. Christians can fall to that as easily as anyone -- being only human.

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I don't understand the highlighted part (It?)
        I want to compliment you in the new use of the term 'presets' now that I understand your use of the word it is a very descriptive way to use the term...nice smile I agree with you 'Presets' can, and often do, cloud peoples perceptions of truth and especially changing truths. Nicely stated.

  36. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    Hi Mik,

    As I said, the point is that both are useless without the other to prove either. Hence, duality. Though, as also stated, the two have recently 'joined' forces and call it quality (i.e. quality of life). The New Age. meta meet physic.

    The awesome and humbling truth is that neither can express what we are as human beings.

    this is the Luciferic ideology. Appear to be god and thus they will believe you are. One through mystic ritual, one through slice-dice surgery. both identical, both lacking.

    it is also the Luficer v. Eve thing:
    questioning our place. questioning who we are, questioning the fullness of all.

    question ability. remove the sword of question ability and you cannot sustain human logic or any ideology.

    yet, we were once beyond questioning, we were beings.
    beings filled with the fullness of All and the All in full measure within each one.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You must be a politician.

  37. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    I love the sort of logic that compares one book fairytales with millions of scientific proofs using scientific methods, and arrives at the conclusion that it is a 50 50 bet on religion!
    Love the maths!
    All this while they are using the science they deny to make their point! Hilarious! lol

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks, it is nice to be appreciated.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Oh you are appreciated alright! (wiping tears of laughter) lol
        Your logic reminds me of the people who used to come in to the watchmakers shop and tell the watchmaker/jeweller someone had stolen the jewels out of their 21 jewelled watch.
        No matter how many times he told them that they were all there and were industrial rubies worth three cents each, they still harped on about it.

        Truth and logic. The first victims of religion. smile


        You fairy followers crack me up! lol

        1. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Earnie, you talk a lot about fairies, what gives?
          I have lots of friends down in Australia, more specifically Hornsby NSW, but they never mentioned anything about fairies...

        2. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this
  38. BL Tween profile image60
    BL Tweenposted 7 years ago

    Religious activities are like sitting in a rocking chair, you use a lot of time and energy, but you are going nowhere.

    When you have been touched by God there is no doubt in you.

    You must know the creator yourself.  No one can feel the rain for you.

    Why not take the experiment? There is a real answer to the question, Is God Real?

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I was "touched by god" and I am here to tell you it is mental illness! smile

      1. BL Tween profile image60
        BL Tweenposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Then it is not the same God I am speaking of brother.
        For this God gives you a sound mind.

        2 Timothy 1:7

        7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear;
           but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.


        Each Christian is on a journey, each one is like wise in a particular place on this journey. There are many ways to the gate, however, as one becomes closer and closer to the gate, the road narrows until there is only one way in.

        I myself am perhaps a third grader as I am not smarter than a fifth grader.
        All though my worldly age is over 35. My spiritual age is perhaps 9. 
        I believe most Christians are still in Kindergarten.
        It is a unique thing being a Christian. You do not fail a test. You take it over and over and over until you pass, no exceptions!

        We are commanded to love our enemies. I believe this to be a fifth grader test. Any Christian, my self included, who can not pass this test is not a fifth grader yet.

        1. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I am so-in-so, and i not smarter than a fifth grader..... LOL

          love that show.

  39. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    I know a sound mind can become a Christian. I did so myself from that condition. Nothing sane about the outcome though! I relinquished your god many years ago now, and life is good! smile

    Really a believe in this regurgitated tripe takes a good dose of indoctrination. Without it, it becomes too easy to see the controlling neurotic words of men therein. smile

  40. BL Tween profile image60
    BL Tweenposted 7 years ago

    It is unfortunate that the religious have driven you away from the one who loves you most.

    That is what I was talking about when  I said the rocking chair was like religious activities.

    It is about your relationship with Him. He will always take you back.

    I pray that you will "live long and prosper"

    BL

    1. drej2522 profile image87
      drej2522posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      wait...did you use a Spock quote here? haha...

  41. BL Tween profile image60
    BL Tweenposted 7 years ago

    It is God who made SCIENCE, it is HE who set everything in motion.

    Science even proves the Bible is true.

    Back in a time when the earth was thought to be flat, we all know that Christopher Columbus proved to the world it was indeed round.
    In his journal he wrote, I knew the earth was round because God told me so.

    Isaiah 40:22
    He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.



    A long time ago, way before we had submarines and could actually go to the bottom of the ocean, the Bible told us that there are mountains at the bottom of the ocean/sea? It is in the story of Jonah.

    1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,  ….
    6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

    There are many many more.

    1. profile image60
      The Paulposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      If you twist poetic language enough you can make it resemble things science has discovered.

      But no one ever seems to know these things 'till science discovers them.  No one looks in the Bible or the Quaran and draws conclusions about the real world then sets out and proves them true.

      No, what we've got is a bunch of people taking scientific discoveries made since those books were compiled and pretending the poetic language used meant that religious scholars knew that all along. 

      Except that they didn't and they never suggested any such thing until science told them of it.

      If those yahoos in America ever come to understand evolution it'll only be a year or two before they start quoting bible passages that "prove" they knew about evolution all along.

      Another couple generations and they'll be claiming that good Christians like Charles Darwin learned about evolution from the Bible and evil atheists tried to suppress the truth of it because of their hatred for said Bible.

  42. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    indeed, so much more.

    i must, for it all, congratulate the scientist and the mystic, you make quite a couple. both trying to reinvent what has been created for your enjoyment. searching what is already known.

    one destroys objects, the other destroys the heart.
    both bend and twist the Free Will of mankind into subjection without purpose or humility of consequence.

    yet, without any form of morose, flaunt yourselves openly, shamelessly, pathetically.

    at least a harlot covers herself after she lays with a married man or his wife...

    1. profile image60
      The Paulposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      So... no, then.

    2. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Do you know a lot of harlots?
      Or you're the married man ?

      lol

      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        both Tantrum, both. jeje.

        so in keeping 'up with the jones'', the entire thread comes down to this: not one has given Tim the answer to his question, his need. Sadly, this only strengthens my position of the blatant ignorance and limitation of human thinking. Well done.

        beside, it is not me you need to prove anything to nor convince of your self-righteous indignation, it is yourself.

        you can keep your temples of gold & blue, your laboratories of radiation & frozen test-tube clone embryo's.

        spirit, mind & body, i am a creation of the Creator of all things, his offspring, his delight -not yours.

        1. tantrum profile image60
          tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You're a delight !
          lol

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I suppose we can keep all the life saving medicine developed by these evil scientists too eh?
            I guess that all these developments were just to prove your beliefs are bunk too? Nasty scientists!
            How are you going to speak "the truth" when you realise you are using a scientific device to speak to us?
            I await your next communication by carrier pigeon. lol

            1. profile image0
              Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Earnie,

              i never said i didn't use the machines made.
              perhaps i am overstating the obvious: none of it is necessary.
              i am just as guilty of using them as anyone else.

              as for medicine: science prolongs life only to accept death
              is that rational? Split atoms to make bombs? rational?
              kill an entire species of fish to drill for oil? rational

              Ad infinitum...

              oh, wait, i am just splitting hairs, right?
              oh wait, science already did that and what did it prove? oh, right, they can split a hair.

              congratulations, you are not smarter than a fifth grader. enjoy the porch, again.

              1. profile image60
                (Q)posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Guilty? Why would you feel guilty? If you feel guilty, wouldn't that be due to the fact you're a hypocrite?



                Notice that you only focus on that which you believe to be the fault of scientists. It was theists who asked the scientists to invent the bomb, to invent ways of drilling for oil, etc. It is the theist who deployed those methods, they pushed the button to detonate the bombs, they provided the funds to drill for oil, etc.




                No, actually it appears you're just making it up or purposely lying about it.

          2. profile image0
            Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            **blush** jeje

            1. aguasilver profile image87
              aguasilverposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              &

              Hi 21, good to see your backhand is still strong! smile

              I'd say you are about 40/15 as it stands!

              John

            2. tantrum profile image60
              tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              big_smile big_smile big_smile

  43. profile image0
    Denno66posted 7 years ago

    Yeah!

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I think you mean Yeah!

      lol

  44. aware profile image70
    awareposted 7 years ago

    knows enough to know i dont know.

  45. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    ps, you scientists killed the pigeon with your valleys of toxic waste - a mere bi product of your intellectual superiority- and of your medicine. again, my congratulations.

    porch.

  46. tantrum profile image60
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    Hi Agua !!!! smile

    1. aguasilver profile image87
      aguasilverposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Tantrum, sorry about the delay, just popped over the road to let my dog run on the beach. He runs, I stay and look at the stars and listen to the waves lapping gently on the sand (it's a new moon, so the waters gentle).

      Then back here for a drop of La Mumba and a couple of slices of toasted wholemeal bread with my own home made Seville orange amarga memelada liberally applied, say hello and good bye to you, then off to bed!

      We are exceedingly fortunate to be able to have the luxury of a safe home, sustenence and good company, even if we do argue a lot!

      But all family's argue don't they? smile

      1. tantrum profile image60
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes! and I enjoy arguing with you ! lol

  47. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    Hey John.

    Seems two threads are merging/converging.
    must be a new scientific discovery or astro-'logical' phenomena
    jeje.

  48. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Why is it that everyone except religionists know that my name is not earnie, Erny, ernie? It is easy enough to read fer gords sake!
    The fairy I refer to is your sky fairy, not native to Australia as far as I know. smile
    If you have trouble with my name, just copy what everyone else calls me. Earnest. Thank you. smile

    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Ah, that explains it, Earnest.
      BTW, who says i am a "religionist".
      my belief far exceeds the un-blissful marriage of religion-science.
      like Tantrum said, more like an alien BEING jeje.

  49. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Explains what? Why you got my name wrong? Religion has little to do with modern science. Religion lives in the past. With scientific method one can challenge the whole process.
    Try to get a false scientific theory through the other related sciences and it will cause science to change direction on the theory.
    Religion says "I read this hateful crap written by a bunch of psychos and believe every word!"

    Hardly a comparable way of arriving at conclusions. smile

    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      really? and i suppose religion won't change its 'course' to continue its stance of control over the masses, as science does?
      i think you can do much better than that.
      science says, no it wasn't evolution it was nano - metaphysics, sorry we made a mistake. religion says, no it wasn't just a miracle it was a miracle of science, oops we made a mistake.

      lets take it further, shall we.

      science constructs machines that dig into the earth to take out chemical compounds called ore (or as Mr. Tolkien put it 'precious') metals like gold. They melt it in huge buildings until it is 'pure', fashion it into a shiny ornament called a statue. them religious folk take that statue, put into into one of their great buildings, kneel down and worship it, the scientist included.

      but you see no connection between them.

      I see a husband trying to please his wife and his wife drooling over her husbands 'ability' to bring her gifts of gold...


      collards greens, ding put `em up!

      1. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
        Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        well stated

    2. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
      Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this
  50. efeguy profile image60
    efeguyposted 7 years ago

    apart from the different doctrine,versions of bible,today Christians are not sincere.in my country Nigeria the pastors are all into politics

    tell me how can an ordained pastor combine Christianity and politics?GOD help us

    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      indeed.
      bon jour Efe. ça va?

 
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