LOL, isn't it amazing how two words can say so much Earnest
I see the "snipping" has already become necessary as the personal remarks and attacks begin (check out above if you haven't seen it already Earnest). Here we go again!!!!
I got snipped. Only the second time ever I think. I do not know why, nor care really..
Was the first time a vasectomy, Earnest?
What, where were you snipped? I only see a certain other person as having been snipped.... ouch!
That sounds a bit harsh, I didn't think we could get snipped for posting links unless they were self promotional or to sites containing extemely adult content!!
Over the Hill and far away with the fairies evidently
God created death, everything that lives must die. That doesn't make God a murderer.
I'm sorry that I came late to this party. Cagsil invited me. Where did you get the idea, Mikel, that God created death? The Bible shows that death came when the human race fell into imperfect rebellion against God's will. You must have gotten that idea somewhere else. Where? I'm curious.
I know you really don't want to get deep in that area....
The fact is if He were a mass murderer it wouldn't matter because He is God.....He made us and He can do with us as He wishes........Thank God He has set guidelines for Himself where we are concerned and that He doesn't think like we do
Are you delusional? I am from my mother. GOD didn't create me. I had human parents. My life was made possible, just from the simple fact that I come from my mother and father.
If you don't know where you came from, then go ask your parents?
Don't assume ALL humans came from some mystical entity. To do so, insults the human race.
that`d be because you represent the whole human race?
Trace that tree back as far as you can and let me know where you end up....this ought to be interesting
Hi, Cagsil! I came over from another of your threads. You seriously mean to tell us that your parents created your life. Not even they could've caused the sperm to fertilize the egg. I believe that God created you and me and therefore rightly lays his claim to our lives. I know that you disagree. That's OK. I believe what Psalm 139 says about God's agency in causing life in the womb. Where did you get your information?
Do you believe in Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy too?
I've read the Bible 3x in my life. Studied for a great many years and found it to be the most contradicting book ever written.
You found it contradicting because you didn't pray for revelation.....
I found it pathetic that people read it but don't understand it. And, it's obvious that YOU only read the posts that you want to read. It's already been explained in this thread. So, go read it.
Santa Claus is Tim the Toolman Taylor
The Tooth Fairy is The Rock....thought you knew
Cags, I've read it through dozens of times. What to you are contradictions are really mysteries about God that no human mind could have come up with. The Old Testament shows many evidences of divine authorship through human authors. I will wait until the end of this thread to give you that evidence.
Studied the 'great flood' in ancient civ. in college. Did you know that every major civilization on the planet has a 'great flood' story with a central character called to build some sort of craft that would save his family and repopulate the earth? Hmmmm. I believe.
Golly, you would so love my hub on "Christ's Life Story, or was it? You decide", it covers all these kind of duplications. Won't post the link for obvious reasons, but please take a look if you have time.
Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. This is one of those times!
What difference does it make if it was "real" or not? It's the idea of possibilities, care, etc that the stories were meant to convey.
I believe that statement is waayyyyy over generalized.
the 'bible' as a book, no can't say I do.
the books, letters there in, yes.
noah's ark -yup.
the flood -yup.
heck, if a tsunami wiped out 250,000+ people in a matter of seconds, the power to flood the earth in a few days it not beyond belief.
-tsunami = 250,000+ people dead (# of animals unreported) - Survivors, those who got out of its path
-40 days and 40 nights of torrential rain / flooded earth, ever living thing dead - Surviors, those who got on the boat
that works for me
and not just from the top, but the bottom as well.
erosion causes extreme flooding when water removes top soil.
from above was the layer of atmosphere -i believe, though not certain- heavily 'iced' which melted, causing torrent rains.
Over the Hill,
I believe the Bible too......Even the comments in this thread confirm the truth of God's Word.....
I Corithians 1:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Thanks for posing the question
B.S.! Plain and Simple. Anything mention of God anywhere in religion is a false idol not worth worship. If you refer to Jesus' teachings about "GOD" then understand the reason Jesus' works include the word. If you don't, then you don't understand Jesus' teachings.
Awe Cags.....don't be so testy.....I love you
Hi, Cags. This thread is about the Old Testament. Your comments on that other thread said that Jesus' teachings were misconstrued by the writers; see my comments there. I'm waiting to see where you found his teachings if they aren't in the New Testament. I want to know why you said that statement with which I disagree. Come on, tell me and others why you believe that the Bible is not true history. I'll tell you why I believe that the Old Testament is true, as I told you on the other thread why I believe that the New Testament is from God.
And you are "non-discerned"? LOLOLOLOLOL
Good thing there are only 100+ Versions and Translations to believe in.
Well, Mike, you need to distinguish between translations that come directly from the oldest manuscripts and paraphrases like the Living Bible and The Message that add the author's meanings and applications. I have studied the Greek and Hebrew and recommend the NIV translation. Reading it will give you the English meanings closest to the original languages, if you're looking for a good translation.
Furthermore, there are many Greek manuscripts from 300 to 1000 years after the original New Testament was written, but there are very few unimportant differences among the manuscripts. The Bible is the best preserved ancient document by far. I hope that this info helps you Mike.
Even Sumerian tablets,written several hundred years before the bible , described about 'the great flood', which is very similar to Noah's Flood in description. Recent fossils evidence supports the entire earth was inundated long back.
Noah and his ark is a myth of an ancient people - just like the Greek, Roman and Egyptian myths.
There maybe some trace of an old racial memory and tradition of a flood in the story, but not one to be taken literally!
Also, one big family and two of each animal would have taken a very large ark! And how would just two of everything re-populate the earth?
Who made the counting and the selection of gender ?
It would have taken months !!!
Everything was on God's timetable....it doesn't matter how long it took.....(It took years to build the ark).....and the animals probably instinctively knew to gather up and come on their own.....
I mean nobody tells the swallows when it's time to fly to Capistrano or the Canidian Geese to fly home......
A story only religion portrays as truth, which is a lie.
again, conjecture, Cagsil? Can you back that statement up with fact?
Common sense and reasoning. Just read the bible and you'll learn.
what does the "Bible" have to do with the flood?
the "Bible" is a paperback book, just like Dynanetics or Websters Scientific Concordance....
ps, if it is "comon sense" then everyone has it, for we all are common humans
Any flood is a non-manmade occurance.
WOW! You're not too bright. I guess I should have figured as much. I already knew your ignorant in this area, but apparently I was wrong to expect you to do anything but what you did.
The bible claims the FLOOD happened didn't? DUH!
THAT IS 100% incorrect.
Torah contains the story of the flood.
at least you try Cags. Hands down, you are amusing, sweetheart.
And, you're not amusing. And, I am not your sweetheart.
Are you getting upset? Count to 10, take a deep breath and ....pray....
I don't understand you, Cagsil. You say to read the Bible, but you don't believe it. Can you explain to me and ofthers? What do you really believe about the flood? Make it clear what you believe about the Bible. You know where I stand; it's not clear where and why you stand.
and what would the meat eaters eat, while waiting on the birth of the next generation of animals?
The Bible doesn't answer such questions because the point of the narrative is not the details but that God grieved over the human race's almost-total rebellion against him and his ways. He then had to deal with human rebellion but gave humanity 120 years to turn to him in faith and obedience. They failed, though, to listen to Noah, God's preacher, and had to be punished. That's Moses' point, not to answer a lot of questions about the details that didn't fit his topic about that history.
The story exists outside of Christianity because it factually occurred before the establishment of Christianity.... Every culture and every nation has a historical account of the same story....everybody can in fantasy....
Have you ever measured the size of the ark as described in the Bible...it was pretty darn big.......
Two of everything could re-populate the earth, just like one man and onw woman could originally populate the earth......you must not know any Johnsons or Byrdsongs.........20 kids in each family and cousins to beat.....it don't take too long to fill up a community center...
Not factual or truth. And, there is no proof, including what's in this thread.
But if there was only one man and one woman, to repopulate the earth their kids would have to breed with each other??? Moral issues aside, not likely to produce a genetically viable or healthy population!
Genesis is written as compressed prophetic history. The periods of time that are described are much longer than at first glance. The questions boil down to whether God guided Moses to write those words as an accurate picture of God's just judgment on the whole human race except Noah and his family. I happen to believe that God revealed himself as rightly just in the sad punishment of humanity by the universal flood. There were certainly a lot fewer animals then, and God gathered them together, not Noah. You might read the Bible's account a little more closely.
and where would all of the extra water come from ? what about the animal shit where would that have gone lol
all the fountains of the great deep were broken up,and the windows of heaven were opened.that was also when all of the dinos died you can see the way they stretch out there necks as for air!
Read the account of Genesis 1-9, and you will see that the world before the flood was very different from the world after the flood. I believe that God made a water or ice canopy over the earth as the language allows in Genesis 1. Genesis 6 says that the sky-windows opened and sheets of water fell. Also, the fountains of the deep opened to let water gush the way oil sadly is gushing from the Gulf floor now.
I saw the math once regarding the space you would need to get two of every animal on a boat.
They wouldn't have fit if Noah had ground them all to a fine paste, first.
Maybe that's what He did......one thing is for sure, they all fit and they were all saved.....
You know, the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man....maybe he miniaturized them or vaccum packed them until the waters abated......
whatever He did, and however He did it, it got done....
You're sure that there were as many kinds of animals then as now?
I do believe that there was a great flood that globally affected many civilizations but as far as the Noah story - I believe it was one of many interpertaions of the event. I do not believe that it actually went down that way.
It's widely held there used to be a stretch of land between Asia and North America. It's disappearance would have been slow, but the people living on it must have seen some catastrophic flooding in areas that were always safe and dry in the times of their ancestors. It's pretty reasonable to think the people living near where it used to exist would have had legends as to how there used to be land and people where there is now only ocean.
But of course the time frames involved are huge to a world that wasn't really in the habit of recording its history. There'd be no accurate accounts or understanding of what actually happened, just stories about terrible floods.
I think Exodus is more fun. Supposedly Egypt suffered a series of plagues and then their entire worker caste up and walked off... you'd think the Egyptians would have noticed something like that.
Thanks for your thought, The Paul. If you remember Roots, Arthur Haley went to Africa to research his series and discovered in pre-writing civilizations, there was one person in each generation with a good memory who preserved the history of his tribe. In an auditory-learning culture, those stories that were handed down were amazingly accurate.
Egyptians didn't have records of the plagues or their defeat at the Red Sea because the kings of the Ancient Middle East weren't in the habit of recording their defeats because of human pride.
I'm very religious and spiritual, but I don't take the Bible 100 literally. There are actually several flood stories that predates Noah...
Hi, shazz01109. What is the Bible 100 :-)? How do you decide what to take literally and what not to? I decide by letting other passages tell me the meaning of one passage, because I believe that God revealed himself by guiding all of the writers to write what he wanted. See my later comments.
I believe that God truly reveales himself in the prophesy that either gave a vision or sent his messenger angels to deliver to the prophets.
To me these reveal 100 times as much as anyones interpretation of the Gospels as written by the disciples.
I've forgotten that one. Going to look it up now
Why do you prefer the Sumerian version, mikelong? The Sumerians' and others' stories besides Moses' account involve gods that are part of the universe, whereas Moses writes about a separate Creator-God who created humanity and is rightly just in punishing humans' rebellion against him as their Creator. If he created us, he certainly has a right to our worship and obedience, I believe. Read the rest of Genesis and Exodus 1-20 in a good translation from the preserved Hebrew (NIV), and you'll find that no one could have thought up such a great God, who is so different from the gods of the Sumerians and the other AME gods. He must have revealed himself to Moses as his prophet.
You know, I actually thought this would generate some intellegent debate.But,...I`m new to the forums and will have to accept the fact of dealing with childish,juvenile and ignorant participants.You children go play and let the adults have the computer.
Ah an instant expert on humans! MUST be a religionist!
Intelligent debate concerning noah’s ark?…what a joke!…and talk about ignorance…infants even know that the story of noah’s flood was stolen from Greek mythology by wicked priesthood and concocted into practically an identical myth and inserted in the bible as truth.
It's my understanding that Greek mythology was between 1,000 and 500 B.C., and Moses wrote Genesis during the 40 years that the Israelites were wandering on the Sinai Peninsula about 1,500 B.C. Also, Greek mythology, which I taught once upon a time in high school presents gods that were part of the universe, a form of pantheism, whereas Moses presents an eternal Creator-God who is separate from and created everything as only one God, not many gods like the Greek gods.
Furthermore, the New Testament reveals that that God is three Persons in one God--Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit, who was the direct cause of creation. (You can find those teachings in John 1, 14, 15, and 16.)
Pylos, I suggest that you get your facts straight before writing anything here. I would be interested in your response. However, you have a perfect right to believe anything you want to believe or not believe.
Well in my opinion I dont think God would give us a book of history that was to be taken as nothing short of factual. Seems odd that we would have to take SOME of it literally and others not.
I do believe in the story myself.
There is even a National Park in Turkey called "Noahs Ark National Park" Look it up. Pretty interesting stuff. The formation even measures up to exactly 300 cubits which is what God told Noah. Imagine that. They also found metal fittings, anchor stones and petrified wood and animal dung. Not only that, its a man made structure. This has been shown using ground radar. It has a structure, shape. And, also, it is resting in the Mountains of Arrarat just like the Bible says.
If you prefer the Sumerian version, you seriously need to give some thought into the story. And while youre at it, look up ship design from a nautical standpoint.
The character in the Epic of Gilgamesh was told by a lower god the exact dimensions to build his 'Ark'. He was told that the width had to be equal to the height, and the depth.
Making it a CUBE.
I dont know if YOU know of any sailors, but if you do, ask them about this design for a boat and see how long it takes for them to laugh at it.
The cube is the WORST seaworthy design for a ship. Not only would it capsize on itself from a small wave, but anything inside it would be injured if not killed.
When we look at the dimensions given to Noah by God, it looks like a modern tanker. Long, wide and not too tall. This was a perfect design which is VERY sea worthy to anyone who knows anything about sailing. This design would be able to withstand a deluge of great proportions.
A cube however... Not in a million years.
Not to mention, the deluge in the Epic of Gilgamesh states that the deluge was SO fierce, the GODS were even afraid and hid.
So use common sense at least when it comes to things like physics and sea worthy vessels.
Design by God to Noah = Very sea worthy and seen in modern times.
Design from Lower God to the character in the Epic of Gilgamesh = Horrible and would have killed everything on board.
I agree with you, FattyG, but there are some books that are symbolic like Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Revelation. You're right that the rest or the Bible confirms that the historical books of Moses and the rest of the prophets are prophetic history, that is, written as history with lessons fulfilled in Jesus. Thanks for being part of our discussion, though I only learned of this post a short time ago from Cagsil, about four months late!
If the whole planet was flooded it would stand to reason that if God told Noah to build such a ship that others around the Globe might have also been forewarned. Thus each ship would have carried those animals that were indigenous in that region.
We should also be aware that when written in scripture the word "Earth" referred to the known civilization from the writers perspective.
Simply stated..This is how I would explain my thoughts.
. . . or all land was in one place and connected at the time.
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
You also must remember that Noah worked on building the ark for one hundred years. As far as the animals go, God brought them to the ark.
The fountains of the deep along with the rain is what flooded the earth.
The Bible definitely stands to reason within its own assumptions about our Creator-Rescuer-God who is also just and must punish human rebellion, the point of the flood account. I believe that the Bible shows that Jesus came to take believers' punishment on himself.
Sorry - that is all you get. Dear me...
You must be very angry that science has proven your beliefs to be garbage. I don't blame you - but lying is a sin. Even lying to yourself.
How have science's theories "proven" the Bible to be in error, Mark? Neither you nor the scientists were there when the flood happened. As a result, scientists can only theorize rather than come up with facts to disprove the Bible. Let's keep theory and fact separate, please. However, you have perfect right to theorize as you wish.
I find that stuff fascinating FattyG. I should go visit that park in Turkey. But I don't think those things you found were from the actual Ark.
They have "National Noah's Ark Day" as well. If you send me $4,000 to my paypal account- I can get you a ticket.
And I suspect you will be interested in my dinosaur hunting trips to China. I can do you a deal if you have 20-30 friends.
Drop me a PM.
Can anyone explain the Ice Age Earth experienced?
I wasn't sure if the bible explained it or not. It seems to have answers for everything else. At least that is what you believe right? The bible has all the answers.
God has all the answers. I am not God. Would God put every answer in the Bible? I can't say for sure. If they are there, I have not found all of them yet.
Can anyone be 100% certain that there was an ice age? I am not talking about doing a court case where arguments are presented.
I wouldn't expect you to have all the answers, because the questions are never-ending. However, the word inscribed, in all the scriptures is limited. It's considered a complete book? Right?
This, what you're talking about, was like 9th grade science. I graduated in 1986 from High School and we're presently in 2010?
This isn't unknown facts we're dealing with. You have trust the foundation for which humanity best thrives, knowledge and exploring our own reality. That's what science does.
If I understand you are saying that science is the foundation you build upon. Correct me if I am wrong.
If any part of the science that you build on happens to be wrong, then isn't your building also wrong?
I graduated from High school in 1978. When a person graduated doesn't really mean that much.
My point in referencing my the year, was the simple fact that it old knowledge, and now that you've told me what year you graduated, it's obvious that you should have already had this knowledge. What did you do dismiss it in school?
It OLD knowledge. In the late 70's science, all fields took a shot at debunking the bible. The "church" attacked back at science. When the church attacked, it lost credibility, because ALL FIELDS of science combined - debunked, however the church discredited psychology and biology then, early sciences in the infant years. In order to save face.
Trust, it's many years later, and I'm sorry to say, but BOTH of those fields are even stronger today. BOTH are Validated sciences. Thus, the bible is debunked.
I wouldn't say I dismissed it. I only know what I know. We hear all the time about preachers who do things wrong to get notoriety and money. We have also heard about scientists doing the same at times.
All I am asking is how can anyone be completely sure without a shadow of a doubt about it being correct.
Faith in Humanity? I put my faith in the collective humankind to get it right, and not screw it up. It goes with my purpose in life, which is to spread knowledge, and I do it because I love humanity? My spirituality comes from my love for Humanity.
When I learned, there is no god - it forced me to own up to being human, the best one I can, because I have only one shot at it. There is NO higher cause for a human's faith other than oneself or fellow human beings- it's the sole driving force for humanity to push knowledge to the extreme and better life for everyone.
When I believed in GOD, as a Catholic, then tested doctrines. Religion got discredited, because each of it's doctrines are unattainable, sole on the base reason, humans cannot achieve perfection. We know we are going to make mistakes, if we can make mistakes that are not harmful to society, then we strive forward in advancements.
The focus of individuals is way out of whack, because of religion. Humanity is literally suffering under the weight of it.
That's my complete view on it. Just to let you know.
Now I know where you stand. Thank you for explaining it.
Thanks for your summary of your views. Have you ever considered the possibility that humanity and its collective reasoning may be defective apart from God, as the Bible says and that it takes God to restore humans to be on the road to perfection, which will only be received in the next life? We agree that humanity can't attain perfection in this life.
However, the Bible teaches that the Father declares believers perfect through Jesus' life and death as our Creator-Judge. As a result, believers receive without achieving perfection because of Jesus; you can find that teaching in Romans 3 and 4. Paul's word for that verdict of "not guilty" is justification, a legal term for the judge's verdict. Perhaps, you didn't run across that biblical teaching in your Catholic experience.
The flood represents our Judge's calling humanity to believe in and stop rebelling against him as their Creator-Judge, and that change in humans has only been accomplished by the then-future Messiah, Jesus Christ. All we need to do is accept him as our way to the Father's justification. That's what I believe the Bible says, Cagsil.
You might investigate the evangelical Protestant understanding of the Bible instead of reacting negatively against your Catholic upbringing and teaching.
I'm curious. How did you arrive at "knowing" that God did not exist. You haven't explained that change.
Cagsil, I don't believe that the Bible has answers for everything either. Its focus is on God and his relationship with humanity and more specifically with those who believe in him as he reveals himself in creation as the divine Designer and in Jesus Christ, believers' rescuer from the Father's justice expressed in the flood. It certainly doesn't answer all my questions, nor do I expect it to. I have a whole list of questions to ask when I get there, but I probably won't care then :-)!
you don't know ??
How strange !
you seem to know everything !
Yes Tantrum, science has already explained how and when the Ice Age occurred.
I appreciate the compliment, but I do not know everyhting.
this was for Cagsil.
And I'm sure you know a lot.
Was this a hint at one explanation for a flood occurring in the Mediterranean basin which became the Mediterranean sea upon the collapse of the land mass creating the straights of Gibraltar?
Do you know the answer to your own question or are you testing my knowledge of the Ice Age? My knowledge of the Ice Age is that it did happen, factual evidence was found. Otherwise, it would have been dismissed years ago. But, it wasn't. Did it happen precisely to cause the straights of Gibraltar? I wouldn't have a clue. Don't know.
And, for those of you, other than Jerami - there is no reason to banter about what I know. I know I don't have all the answers, because there is really too much still unknown. I am ignorant in areas of knowledge- Yes. But, I am not ignorant about Life.
In answer to the first question, I believe in the Bible. What about you?
I would have liked to answer that with a firm yes; but by using my logic and reasoning mind I have to say that there are a few things in the Bible that cannot stand up to reason, so, I have my doubts and hope that one day I will be able to see why I fill this way.
Is there anybody that can help me to clear my doubts?
I can only suggest you read the entire thread?
I can not clear your doubts. I can tell ya what works for me.
I believe those words and messages that were recorded in the old testament that is said to have come out of the mouth of God and his messenger Angels.
The OT is accepted by Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Any interpretation of the New Testament that can not exist compatibly with the OT should be constantly re examined.
Not automatically accepted nor rejected as interpreted.It is the interpretation that requires constant re examining.
Jerami, I believe that the New Testament and more specifically, Jesus, fulfills the Old Testament, which looks ahead to him, for example, Isaiah 53, which prophesies Jesus' suffering and death as our sin offering fulfilling the animal sacrifices of Leviticus.
The New Testament or Covenant, I believe, is the same covenant (personal and communal relationship) that God established with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but in a new form for the international church carrying forward the principles but not the outward form of the law that was for the nation of Israel. That's a summary of a very big subject.
There is, therefore, continuity and discontinuity between the two testaments (covenants), but both are fulfilled in Jesus as our God-man. God is revealed as the 3-in-1 God--Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit--one all-powerful God. Read the Gospel of John, Romans 3 and 4 (God's plan to rescue us), and 2 Corinthians 3-7 (Paul's description of the new covenant). It's in those books and others that I find these beliefs.
That's how I understand the relationship between the two parts of the Bible.
What do you doubt, Frank? I too believe in the Bible. I have many questions that I could ask when we get there, but either they will answered or I won't care then :-).
To me the fact that every civilization has the story of a flood does not take away the significance of the bible story of the flood. It happened. And there are a number of scientific explanations as to how God could have caused this to happen.
The geological evidence points to movement of massive numbers of rocks from differnt parts of the globe moving long distances. Rocks and stone reflect their origination and they leave a trail. If they move from one place to some place farther scientists of course make conjectures as to how that happens naturally, such as the melting of ice after an ice age. You could say that God caused the ice age but that is beyond science's purvue.
We have been watching on TV as to what would happen if our polar ice caps completely melted, Weather patterns changing, and how all that water is going to raise the ocean levels.
This melting will be nothing compared to that which began 10,000 years ago. How long did it take for all that ice to finish melting.
Ever hear of POLE SHIFT?
Science proves the Bible is TRUE!!
How long have we know about Pole Shift?
It was written in the Bible thousands of years ago.
Just thought you would like to know.
Here is what I have to say about putting your 'faith' and beliefs in something.
I personally put my faith and beliefs in God, the Bible, the whole story.
Because when I do, I dont really need any answers. Sure I have questions. TONS. But I find answers. I dont find them all, but I find way more than not. But thats the thing about faith and believing. You dont NEED a lot of answers. You understand.
And it makes so much sense that its surprising how so many people DONT see it.
.....Well, besides the 2+ Billion others.
Those 'faiths' and beliefs that I have are based off of the Bible.
Its the foundation.
It has taken centuries to finally come together, written by multiple people from ALL walks of life. It explains it everything about what we need to know about creation and our nature. People who hated christian's became themselves Christians and wrote books in the Bible. Tax collectors, rich men and poor men.
It has been tested, it has been ripped apart and it has been debated and discussed.
But it has NEVER changed.
People try to prove error, but they cant. Its consistent. People can find ANY verse and take it out of context and claim its a lie, but its out of context and fitting THEIR idea of God. It has brought people together, it has changed lives, helped people and there is no other book in the world that contains SO many prophecies that have been fulfilled with stunning accuracy.
You can put your faith in Science.
The textbooks, full of all the 'knowledge' and 'wisdom' of science. What they tell us 'fact'.
And it changes on a regular basis.
Things get erased, changed. Theories are thrown out the windows, new ones are made. We were once told to "Duck and Cover" to survive a nuclear blast. The Earth was flat at one time too.
Look at the most recent one, the Global Warming caused be Human CO2. Fake.
Our own scientists even lie to us. And the whole world pretty much bought it.
Now we have quantum mechanics that suggest that there IS a possibility of a God.
Anyways. I look for something solid to put my faith in. Gives me hope, gives me a good head on my shoulders. So why not. You lose nothing.
well it just makes sense to me.
I cant trust science.
Plain and simple.
The stuff I was taught in school is no longer fact. Yet it WAS at the time.
There are people in the science community that would love to prove that there is no God. When they cant, they come up with theories. Some of these theories are accepted and circulate, and some dont. But the fact of the matter is that they will NEVER be able to prove that God doesnt exist. The only thing they will do is find out there is a very solid case that he does. Watch.
Read into what 'scientists' are telling us about the quantum theory. Look up things like "The Double Slit Test". Entanglement theory. The 11 dimensions of space.
This is coming from leading scientists from around the world. Sure, they are scientists, and I dont believe everything im told, but even the scientists are saying that there COULD be a God.
I have to go to my buddies house.
I have some faith in science
I have some faith in religion.
I have complete faith in my creator and conforter.
I have little faith in my ability to "always" like what is best for me. I have faith that I will accept it.
Because your selfish. I get it. No problem. You rather put yourself ahead of the welfare of humanity. I see.
Where is your morality?
No Cagsil, its because we do love humanity!
We were all unbelievers once.
You're selfish. Plain and simple.
Cagsil, I don't mean any harm. Just that your every changing anime avatars are quite gender-challenged.
So, where did the water go after the flood? There was nowhere for it to drain if the land was entirely covered.
There would be only one place that it could go. And if this place was not empty it could not go there either.
The polar ice caps had to have melted contributing to the flood. Then these waters would have to have return from whence it came.
Never thought about that theory before; but it makes sense to me. Maybe??
i was thinking more like geysers in yellowstone etc. Imagining massive 'volcanic' eruptions of water, as well as from above.
Hay 21 days , Randy ; everybody..
Yea..I was just thinking out loud again. When working on cars it is sometimes hard to figure out why it won't run cause there is a combination problem going on. Even before computers on cars.
The flood could have occurred as a result of a combination of events. And the waters reseeding would have had a number of ways for the earth to have taken care of this problem.
As I said..I know nothing just thinkin out loud.
But the problem remains, if the earth was totally covered in water, there is nowhere for it to drain to. Even if the water evaporated, the clouds would be so thick no sunlight would be able to penetrate them. Nothing much would grow and the rain would probably be continuous.
No matter how you look at it, scientifically of course, this simply is not logical. But logic isn't required for some it seems.
Well this year was a very rainy year for us here, so if it any indication of how a flood event happens, the water flooded roads, streams, etc yet went into the ground after the rain stopped.
who knows how 'deep' the actual level of dirt is beneath the surface, ya know. so it makes sense to think the same of the great flood.
the oceans would rise considerably, losing lots-o-land mass.
Sorry, the magma beneath the earth's surface would not react well to water. If the flood was as high as the highest mountain, the water would come in contact with the molten rock long before the land was drained. This would create vast worldwide explosions caused by the steam created. Even if the ark survived this cataclysm,the land would be unsuitable for living things.
magma is not the same as dirt...
plus it took 1+ years for the water to recede and even more time BEFORE they left the ark. the bird came and went 3 seasons before Noah opened the door.
If this happened, you would not have dirt, you would have mud. The layers of bedrock would keep the water from going anywhere unless the fissures in the rock allowed it to seep through. Again the magma reaction.
The layer of dirt is simply not deep enough to soak up all of the water. Don't you think the dirt would already be saturated during the initial 40 day and night deluge? Water could not drain into already soaked soil. Not trying to be contrary, but this is simply impossible.
your going on the assumption that the water/land levels mirrored those of today. Who is to say the land levels were much higher -or the ocean levels were lower. As we know from oceanography -there are mountains miles 'high' below the surface.
if so, then all that water from the sky would have filled up the oceans to the present height and the rest mud, until the land fully absorbed it.
sidebar note: also if the water reached the height of K2 or Everest, and you were in a boat, even if the magma reaction happened, like a massive earthquake -the salt water would absorb the shock and magma would cool immediately in the surrounding water, forming even more bedrock, trapping water inside of it. much like the volcano of today (Crater Lake is a great example)
Randy, it's my view that you're in the realm of speculation, not science and logic. If you accept the belief that God is the Creator, he would find a way for the waters to recede and the land to appear as the Bible says. If you don't, you can speculate all you want, but you and I weren't there. So it's just theory that you have. I believe in the Creator who flooded the earth as he grieved about humanity's rebellion. That's the teaching of Genesis 6-9, not trying to answer all our questions. When we speculate, we tend to get off the point that God's power enough to bring a flood in his justice and to make it recede.
If this is the case, then there is no need for logic when reading your novel. It makes no difference what shape the ark was, god would make it float. No matter if the polar bears were hot or the birds crapped everywhere. God fixed it! What a load of male bovine excrement!
As Mikel pointed out, the carnivors would have had it tough!
Good Cagsil, very good! a quiet Sunday here, hot.
Yeah, I heard you're going thru a heatwave down there.
It always gets hot as hell in Australia! We have heat waves somewhere every year. I hope you are doin great!
It's hot and humid here in West Michigan with chance of severe storms four months later, earnestshub. I believe that the flood in the Bible is a picture of the final destination of rebels and unbelievers in the Creator-Rescuer-God in the sad place that you referred to. I believe that Jesus came to rescue us from the Father's justice that produced the flood.
if i had to guess, Randy, it both evaporated and receded, much like flood waters do today. Since the layer of 'icy' melted (in Hebrew the word firmament means layer of sky -loosely translated), the air would have heated up, causing evaporation.
and yeah, it would have caused the dino's to be wiped out completely.
without food (meat or veg) and direct sunlight, the only things left would be fish -which are still the largest species on the planet.
Evaporation would not make sense. If it evaporated it would make more clouds and more rain. It would have taken thousands of years for the ice caps to regain their mass, not 40 days and nights. Recede to where? If the earth is covered there is nowhere for it to go. Water does not disappear, it just changes form. Besides, all of the water on our planet would not cover the earth completely. Imagine the tallest mountains covered with water, sorry, not possible!
There is also the problem of seasonal rings deep down in the ice caps. There are over 100,000 of them.
The myth of the great flood was around long before the Bible. Like many other stories, the biblical authors borrowed them for their novel.
How did you come to believe that the Bible is a novel, Randy? I believe that the biblical history was written by prophets to make spiritual points. It is not modern history in that sense. The events described there are historical, but those happenings are carefully chosen and selected to reveal who God is and what his relationship is with humanity (in the flood narrative) and with Abraham and his descendents and the Christian church that succeeded Israel. I don't believe that the Bible is fiction, nor do I believe that it was written as modern history. It is historical as written as preaching history by the prophets and the apostles.
Just out of curiosity ... I would have to wonder how deep in the ice the core goes before it starts revealing these really old rings?
@ 21 days
There would not be just one titanic explosion if the water seeped through the bedrock, there would be many and these explosions would open many other fissures in a chain reaction. Perhaps you've read about Krakatoa or Thera.
And if the magma sealed the cracks by producing more bedrock, the water could not have drained away. Not to mention the great amount of steam produced which would have an adverse affect on the sunlight reaching the earth and create even more rain.
to have stream, you would have to have the atmospheric span.
perhaps this explains the size of today's atmosphere.
i agree there would have been hundreds, even thousands of volcanic reactions happening -within the water. still on top you would only feel a slight vibration.
it is fun to wonder about and definitely possible to believe.
It is a fascinating subject to examine, both from a religious and scientific viewpoint. Can you imagine an atmosphere so thick with clouds that it would hold enough water to fill the valleys and entirely cover the earth? It is impossible for our atmosphere to contain this much moisture, much less keeping it from falling to the earth for the eons preceding the deluge. No light could enter and crops would not have grown, especially gopherwood.
i mentioned earlier that the Torah translated word for firmament is close to 'snow-sky or frozen heaven, something like that. So it is possible there was no cloud formation previously, but a steady melting of that layer causing rain.
So in all likelihood, as the sky began to melt and fall on the many volcano's, lots of water vapor formed... pretty fascinating.
Ice takes up more space than water and could not remain suspended in thin air. Snow and sleet falls and it weighs very little No sunlight again. A frozen solid earth. No trees to build the ark with.
not say ice per say, but something resembling a more icy like layer. in fact there is ice in our atmosphere, so it is not all together impossible.
something else to consider is perhaps the lower atmosphere of earth at that time was denser/more pressurized. thus enabling such a layer to remain. and would explain a higher temp in which plant life and dinosaurs lived -more tropic.
as this layer melted, the lower atmosphere cooled, the vapor escaping expanding that atmosphere and causing the cooling of the volcano's below, increasing the water levels and changing the entire land scape as we know it.
again, fun to wonder about...
Sorry I screwed up the quote! I'm not a disbeliever, nor believer. I see proof from neither side, but this doesn't keep me from looking for it.
no worries Randy, i get lost in the quotes too.
ps, nice to 'meet you'.
i am that guy who is slowly dismantling the ritual belief systems of the two mystics. You might have heard of them: theology & science [the lovers of Duality]
I dont know what god is or isnt. Its all a mystery and I am fine with that.
Thanks 21days. Good to discuss things with someone who is willing to trade opinions instead of insults. Good luck dismantling science though, as it does a pretty good job of questioning itself, unlike religion.
Randy, I'm not a dualist. I believe that God is as he is revealed in the Bible. He is spirit as Jesus said in John 4, not flesh and blood, though Jesus took on a human body to die to take away his Father's justice displayed in the flood. The facts of science are compatible with the Bible, but what often is touted as a fact is really hypothesis and theory. The big bang may have been how God bagan his creation, but it will always be a theory, because none of us were there when it happened, and there were no witnesses to report it to us. There's the Creator and his universe. That's what I believe. Nice responding to your thoughts. I'm interested in your responses.
Genesis 1 describes God creating an expanse (the sky) that separated the waters above from the waters below. Then God made the land appear. Why couldn't our Creator do the same after the waters above fell to the waters below. After all, he's God and we're not. He can do anything.
Where is the question about Noah and the flood I'm still scanning?
...why did this perfect, omniscient god thing of the bible create all those folks who drowned in the flood?
Do ya create yer kids so that ya can dump em in the bathtub and drown em?...then go out and create some more?......with what in mind?
Maybe burn em up next time eh?
Sounds like Grimm's fairytales to me...:-)
qwark, in three words: rules are rules.
...and there is "psychopathology" too...:-)
Hey Qwark, what's up?
Check out this other thread...let me know what you think?
Cagsil, I followed your advice on the thread about whether Christianity made sense and read this whole thread. Interesting! Now, I direct you all of my responses and especially the one at the very end. I value your responses. Whether we can agree is not the point; it's whether we can understand each other that's important to me. Have a good life. I'll check back to see if you or others have responded. Thanks for your thread; it was interesting!
Quark, you ask questions that can be answered from the Bible. God created humanity very good, but with Satan, humanity rebelled against their Creator and ran their own lives, summarized in the line of Cain, who killed his brother Abel because of his self-centered anger. The line from Adam through Seth was the believing line.
At the beginning of Genesis 6 the two lines mixed, and evil prevailed in the human race except for Noah and his family. God grieved over human rebellion that filled the earth with violence, and he gave humanity 120 years to change their rebellous ways. If we were the Creator, we would have been a lot more impatient.
You have to remember that, yes, God is a loving Creator supplying his creatures with their needs, but he is also a just God who must declare human rebellion guilty as our Judge. It makes sense that if he created us, he also claims our lives for us to obey his moral standards. It also makes sense that he cannot tolerate our rebellion. The flood represents the natural consequence of our alienation from him as humans.
The only way out from under his judgment of "guilty" is Jesus' taking our guilty verdict and death penalty on himself as our substitute. It's through faith in him and submission to his ways that God calls us "not guilty."
He didn't create us to destroy us in the flood and hell, but we did that result to ourselves ever since Adam and Eve's rebellion. Jesus lived, died, and rose from the dead to rescue us if we receive his victory and the Bible's promise of rescue in the present and the future.
I welcome your response, since you are free to believe what you want to.
For god so loves mankind he threatens to wipe them out about once a week!
I have yet to meet and speak to 1 monotheist who can offer anything but "opinion."
What is it they say about opinion?..."everyone has one. Theyre worth about a dime a dozen."
Nothing can be learned from "primitives" other than the fact that any caveman can "follow."
If they weren't so damned dangerous, I'd take 'em with a grain-of-salt.
When I'm in their presence, I keep an eye on 'em!..:-)
Hi, Quark! You mean that your ideas are not opinions as well!? You are entitled to your ieeas or statements of faith in humanity just as Cags is, but aren't monotheists like me also free to express their faith the way you are? Why do you generalize about a whole group? I'm sorry if I offend you. How am I dangerous? If you don't believe in God's justice, why do you use the word "damned"? It means...well, you know what it means. I'm interested in knowing why people bellieve as they do, not in talking them into believing in monotheism. why are you so mad at monotheists??
Anyway. Bantering about the NTK will get us nowhere fast.
though I do wonder why, in all seriousness, why any human with a functioning brain would completely dismiss the possibility of a Creator -apart from religion or science. Just generally speaking. If you dismiss the possibility, doesn't that honestly defy ones on quest for knowledge and or truth?
just a thought within that parallel.
Creators can be many, but Gods ? No gods
God is a word and an 'entity', Man made up to rely on.
Even if we're created by someone or something, that's not a god. Only a circumstance.
You are so right. Alot of people don't realize that God is a generic term
Tantrum, please explain your words. Why don't you believe in the possibility of a Creator-God who rescues believers from disaster like the flood and who provided Jesus to make that rescue final? I'll explain shortly why I believe. The God of the Bible is much more than man's fear. He is loving, merciful, kind, full of grace (readiness to accept us), all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere-present. He loved his humanity so much that he gave hie dear Son in suffering and death to take believers' death penalty. He's not our fear but a loving God. All you need to do is receive Jesus as your Rescuer and Ruler and you will escape his just judgment. That's what I've done, but you can do or not as you wish.
Well Bruce, there are too many contradictions in the flood story, which you don't appear to be helping us understand.
How does one get millions of species aboard a boat that size? Even one of each kind would not fit.
I would bet that YOU could write a story today about something that YOU know to be true.
Some one will find something that seems to be incorect.
Some one will read your story a hundred times.
When they retell the story, they rephrase the story in a way that they do not see to be changing it, but it does.
After this happens a couple of times,
there will be many people finding many contradictions
The only logical conclusion that anyone could come to is that the story that you wrote never happened.
YOU made it up.
Interesting explanation. However, if someone does in fact find something incorrect, the correction can be made. If it belies the story altogether, then yes, the story can be scrapped. Can you produce an example of your explanation?
Of course, you don't actually know the story of the ark to be true. If it was a credible story, then perhaps it might be accepted as true.
But, the story of the ark is so riddled with contradictions and fantasy, even children know it it's a fairy tale. It would be quite immature to accept such a story as true.
In its final format..?? I have to agree.
But one can only speculate as to how the story was origionally told.
There COULD be "some" truth at the very core?
And I do not see the precision of the facts of this issue negating every other issue that is adressed in scripture.
Kinda like when I am telling my grand children how great I used to be at playing billards.
There is some truth to my stories.
BUT ... was I really as good as I remember that I was.
They can believe anything that they want too? They will never know? And it don't matter either way. As long as the don't hate me "if I did" exagerated a little bit.
Whatever "truth" may be at the core is not anything like the fantasy filled story.
The contradictions in scriptures stand on their own as contradictions without any help from the flood story.
It's not like that at all, you actually played billiards, which is not likely a fantasy story akin to the flood story.
How do you know, Beelzedad, that there were millions of animal species at that time? You're projecting the present into the past by assuming that the account is modern history that answers all of your question. Rather, my studies and reading of the Bible lead me to understand that it is prophetic history written by Moses and other prophets to make spiritual lessons for God's people. Therefore, many details are left out that would satisfy a modern or postmodern curiosity. As with all literature, we should take it as it is, not as we think it should be. Stay tuned at the end for my take on the truth of the Old Testament.
It's interesting that you label everyone as immature who accepts the Old Testament as truth. Why do you generalize with out asking why we believe that way? It may make sense to you. Stay tuned.
Why would you presume that I don't think there's a creator?
I don't think I mentioned that possibility.
There is a "creator!" It is called: "serendipity."
interesting enough each one enters 'man' into the statement.
as Alice said: "curious and curiouser..."
for what its worth, what does man have to do with the Creator and why his historical, purposeful need to be considered with or without an entity or entities of 'god'.
there were folk who believed in a Creator- long before there was religion/science and the 'documentation' of such.
also, that history provides massive evidence to say 'man' has always believed in a or many godlike entities. has mankind been 'mad/screwy' from the dawn of his existence?
PS, Quark, that statement couldn't be MORE proof of the 'New Age Critique' in my present work! Thank you for that.
indeed Hokey. Hence one of the cornerstones of my work and my belief that so long as mankind considers/thinks/is conscious/aware of there being or not being a Creator, the longer it will take to understand...
indeed, Randy, indeed.
As I have opened and expressed many moments:
mankind is quite a beautiful thing, individually and collectively.
for whatever 'reason/logic/sensation/etc' it has accepted a lesser form of life than he is to be. Accepting he is only human, lost in an ever constant system of thought that was designed for him to live above. His thought is complete and full and therefore does not need to exist within his own thinking but live beyond it.
He once did, and though he was convinced otherwise, the Creator still provided a way back to that place, where man would not need, but would be full, complete, lacking no thing, having full knowledge, able to live in understanding and do so many greater things than what he thinks he should. Still, he equates that place as afar off, after his body sleeps. But this is also untrue...
It is simply human nature for some to wish for life eternal. Life itself is more than enough for me.
Did you write that?..or are is that a quote?
I disagree with avery aspect of it.
If you wrote it, what is the foundation you base your premises on.
If you didn't, you have to believe what it purports. Why would you?
i wrote that as a summation of a particular expression.
why does it bother so, quark?
It doesn't bother me, I just disagree with every aspect of it.:-)
What do you mean by this:
"mankind is quite a beautiful thing, individually and collectively.
for whatever 'reason/logic/sensation/etc' it has accepted a lesser form of life than he is to be."
The syntax is terrible and I'm trying to figure our what'cha mean by: "...it has accepted a lesser form of life than he is to be."
Pls explain...ty :-)
Hi Habee! Where ya been? Oh that's right ..... it is me who has been missing!
I left for a couple weeks too.
Got bored with all this.
I'd, probably, still be gone if the weather hadn't gotten bad...:-)
I may leave the "hub" pages.
I found that writing "hubs" was fun for a while, but I'm running out of subjects I think are worthy of writing about..lol
Man is such a predictable SOB.
We'll see if weather changes tomorrow. If i'm back ya'll know it was a shitty day...lol
Banned for being naughty I'm afraid! My first ban too!
I wrote another hub though!
Wow, 17 months without a ban! I hope I can do as well!
Yep, gotta watch what you say all right. If you are slimy it is easier to avoid bans apparently.
Hmmm...I prefer the word "slippery" Earnest. Slimy is reserved for politicians and preachers.
that's why I'm praising the Lord all the time now !
Randy, you forgot your favorite - door-to-door salesmen! Bet you miss Cody sometimes! Those wolf-dogs are great for keeping away pesky visitors.
Do you know that "Debate" involves argument?
To win an "argument," one must produce fact/proofs.
Wouldn't debating that which cannot be proved, be foolish?
Are you a fool?
Seems to me ya are if ya want to debate "the great flood or noahs ark."
I do not come to the forums to debate.
I would much rather simply exchange ideas. Add some of those ideas to my repertoire and allow my mind to grow
I didn't know anyone was keeping score and there was a winner???? WOW didn't know how stupid I was. Go figger??
It is clear you are not interested in "debating." That remark was not directed at you.
So, I guess you "win," on that one. I have seen you do nothing but argue your case and defend your irrational beliefs - how is that "exchanging ideas?"
One thing that is wrong with the written discussion is that the reader can put any tone of voice on it that they want to.
Sometimes I am guilty of putting the wrong tone of voice onto things that I am reading also.
If we refuse to hear other peoples opinions, ours will never change (no growth). I guess it all depends on our own definition of Debate, Arguing and conversation??
I know that sometimes I come off a bit too strong,
I am trying to do better. Sometimes we have bad days and focus our frustration where it does not belong.
I apologise for when I have done this.
However it is a good thing when two people can discuss diffrent opinions and a blending occurs.
I don't want to debate anything, Quark. I want to finf out people's beliefs and their reasons for those ifeas and to share my own. People can do what they want to with them. Jerami, I accept your apology. I used to be more angry before God healed me from depression 23 years ago. Stay tuned for my explanation of the Bible's truth.
The Bible like all man written literature is open to interpretation....it has been use to justify murder and it has been used to justify peace.....it is what ever you want it to be
Theiris, if God led the Bible writers to reveal him in those pages, as I believe he did, I try to let the Bible interpret itself by searching for how words are used in other passages and their contexts to find their meanings, not by using modern meanings for those ancient writings. That's the best way to interpret the Bible, according to its own assumptions, I believe. I'll mention at the end why I believe that God led the Old Testament writers to write about him in relationship with humanity and Christian believers.
The story similar to noahs ark can be found in most ancient civilizations so there is definitely an historical background to the story, although the details have probably been enhanced over time.
One theory is Bosphorus/Bosporus strait burst open when the Mediterranean sea levels rose in ancient times flooding all the low lying areas which are now the Black Sea.
No need to apologize Jerami. I was just making an observation.
I will say though - I do not see how it is possible to have an intelligent debate on certain subjects. This one for example. At best any idea of a flood would be a local legend and the idea that there is a "National Noah's Ark Park" in Turkey is laughable.
Yet there are people here trying to convince us that there was actually a flood a few thousand years ago and the world was seeded from the animals and humans on the boat. LOL
Because god was annoyed at his creation. LOL
Why would I do anything other than ridicule some one who proposes that as a serious possibility?
In fact - why is it that people who hold religious beliefs aggressively insist they should be taken seriously when they are obviously irrational?
If I proposed a star goat vomited the universe and got upset when people laughed at that - we would all be in wars all the time.
Yet the idea of an Ark with 2 of every kind of animal on it some how deserves to be taken seriously? Over my dead body.
2 of every kind of animal? - actually some animals had more than two, it was two for all the unclean animals and (for instance) seven sheep, (two rams and five ewes maybe?)
Your dead body will not be required!
Hi, Mark. But you do recognize my right have such beliefs, don't you? There are many reasons why I believe the Bible came from God. Come down to the end of this thread.
If you read the story, there are a lot of things that don't make sense. One of the things I recall reading, was that when the flood waters receeded, Noah and his family went down and rejoiced with the people in the villages.
If there was a great flood, and everything was wiped out as we are lead to believe, where did the people in these villages come from? And, how would a village suddenly spring up if everthing on earth was destroyed?
This about as confusing as Adam having a another wife besides Eve. How in the heck is that possible, if they were the first people on the planet? Did he marry one of his children? I thought he only had two sons, and then he died?
Nothing that comes from the bible makes any sense. That is why they spend every waking moment trying to translate it. And, so
many people fight over it. because nobody really knows anything.
Think you've been reading something other than the bible, what you state is not in it!
Hi, brimancandy. What version of the Bible are you using? I use the New International Version, which is translated directly from the Hebrew and Greek. Noah did not celebrate with villagers after the flood; he had a drinking problem but no mention is made of other people besides his family in Genesis 8 and 9. And Adam did not have another wife besides Eve. Where did you get those ideas, from a movie? Certainly not from the Bible.
I invite you to read the Bible itself through and get God's message directly instead of from ofther sources. Some of the geneology and law chapters you can skim, but it'll take you almost three years one chapter at a time. But then you'll get the real scoop.
There are many things that are taught to be written in the bible that is not there. And there are "some" mistranslations and even more misinterpretations. And I think that some of these stories have been embellished. That said I still believe that there is a basic truth in scripture.
Just my opinion.
Too often Interpretations are studied with more interest than the scriptures themselves.
There are too many people that rely upon those things that they hear rather than what they read.
It is about time for me to go make a living. When I finish my coffee!!!
I did read that part about Noah and the flood directly from the bible. Otherwise where else would I have read it? Do you know of any other stories about Noahs Ark, where the earth was flooded? If you do let me know.
As for Adam having a second wife, that was a bible question on Jeopardy the other day. I never even knew that he had a second wife, but, someone was able to answer that question. As far as I knew, there was Adam and Eve, followed by Cain and Able, and then suddenly there are all these other people around.
If adam and eve were the first two people on the planet, the only way they could have carried on farther was to have sex with their family members. Which would make every person on this earth children of incest. If the bible is correct.
But, someone always brings up the beasts in the fields, which would bring to mind beastiality? Unless there were indeed people on this earth before Adam and Eve. And, the people who wrote the bible just left that part out.
Certainly, Cain and Seth had to marry their sisters, but Cain separated from his parents. Of couese, the early people had to be closely related, but as people spread throughout the earth, their relationship weakened, especially after the Tower of Babel. You mean Jeopardy said that Adam had more than one wite?! Don't you mean Abraham and Jacob? You can read about them and the trouble they had a polygamists. That pattern wasn't God perfect plan, but he allowed it. Stay tuned four months from now :-).
should have quoted "animals". because the word animals is not in the original story. The words living thing, according to its kind.
Doesn't make any difference. I only quoted another religionist. In any case, mine says "every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort " and just to demonstrate god's ignorance of single celled creatures and asexual reproduction, actually specifies one male and one female.
You have to realize that if it happened the way that the bible says, ... God did it ... at some time later, he told Adam all about what he did. Most of the descendents of the people that was on the ark had many living relatives that had the opportunity to sit in Adams lap and hear the story.
They heard the story second hand
400 years after the flood Abraham was born.
shem (Naahs' son)died approx 50 years after Isaac was born
Isaac got the story third hand.
Moses' mom got the story forth handed and told Moses.
Seems like I read a verse about his mom teaching Moses everything about his heritage while he was growing up
No matter how exacting these people tried to retell the story there would be small changes; enough to cause translation errors.
So when we read the genesis account we must remember that we should not scrutinize every little tick and hair of the story, in an attempt to either prove or disprove the story.
A story passing 5 people over a period of 1000 years could maintain basic integrity while not getting it clear as to how to describe how the days were spaced out (or not). Etc. Etc.
Five retellings though are a lot it is not unreasonable to believe that the basics would remain the same. Especially since they all would have heard the story many times from the same person all their lives.
But you must remember, Jerami and everyone else, that that culture was a listening one, in which one member of a tribe with a good memory was entrusted with the task of preserving the historical stories of that group. Arthur Haley found that out when he reseached Roots in Africa. It is also compressed prophetic history in which long periods of time are left out and only the events that make a point about God and humanity (Israel) are included.
Here is why I believe that God revealed himself by guiding the biblical writers to write true history, poetry, and other kinds of literature that comprise the Bible.
The God of the Bible could never have been thought up by the human minds that created that set of books. There are many evidences of that obserrvation.
For example, all of the people of that ancient time believed that the gods were part of the universe (pantheism). Moses was educated in Egypt, where the crocodiles, birds, other animals, and even the king (Pharoah) were worshiped. Yet, he came up with the idea of a completely-separate Creator-God who is without limit, all-powerful, all-knowing, and everwhere-present who created everything and everyone (Genesis 1). The first verse summarizes the rest.
No other people believed in such a God. That's the reason I believe God had to reveal himself to Moses, who wrote the first five books of the Bible. Other prophets wrote the rest of the Old Testament. They presented the fathers of the tribes of Israel in very realistic light, including all of their failings.
Take Abram. He lied twice to the Pharoah of Egypt and to Abimelech, a leader of the Canaanites, and also with his wife, Sarai, decided to marry Sarai's handmaiden to fulfill God's promise of a son instead of waiting for God to fulfill his promise (Genesis 16; look also at chapters 15 and 17).
Jacob also attempted to earn God's blessings by deceiving people until God wrestled with him in a mysterious match. Jacob learned to depend on God for his free gifts instead of trying deserve his gifts.
My point is that histories of that time and today tend to avoid bad news about ancestors and generally point out their admirable qualities. The Bible had to be from God since it paints an ugly picture of the founders of the Israelite nation (many other examples could be cited like David's adultery and murder, even though he was committed to God).
The New Testament presents to us a three-Persons-in-one God (also the God of the Old Testament); a fully-human and fully-divine Jesus, who was born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, died willingly as believers' substitute to take their guilty verdict and death penalty away as a free gift not to be earned, rose from the dead, went back to heaven, and is coming again to restore the universe and believers to perfection. No human minds could ever come up with such a scenario to enable believers to live forever after death and their future resurrection. God had to reveal himself and his plan. Those events are beyond human experience, reasoning, and conception.
The Bible describes the 3-in-1 God as a God of grace (free acceptance) for whom you can do nothing in your imperfection to gain his love. There is no other God who accepts believers just as they are with all their flaws. Why does he freely accept them? Only because of Jesus' flawlessness and death in their place. When God as our Judge looks at believers he gives them the verdict "not guilty" and right in his sight because of Jesus as believers' Authority and Ruler.
How can God be three Persons in one God? I don't know, but he is (read the Gospel of John). He's God and I'm not. Who am I to try to figure him out? He is a mysterious God which no mind can fathom, and that's precisely why I believe that he guided the writers of the Bible to write about him and humanity, who need him desparately to rescue them. These truths and evidencees of the Bible show me that it came from God and that the flood had to have happened. What do you people think? You can believe as you wish.
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