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This doesn't fit into my thinking.

  1. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    I have a  questions  concerning one verse in the bible that I can not seem to understand and have it fit within my belief system.
       I am more interested in similar questions that you may have than to receiving an answer to my question.... but ... if you can answer my question  I am all ears.

      In the book of Revelation;   After The beast and False Prophet, And their worshipers, and Satan are thrown into the Lake of fire;
      After the New Jerusalem is seen coming down to the earth.  The 12 Gates are described that are pearls which are never shut for nothing that is defiled can not enter in ,,,
     
       This is the verse in question.
    21:15  "for without are dogs, and sorcerers,  and whore mongers and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie".

       It seems to me that everyone that is going to be thrown into the lake of fire has already been thrown into it.
       So how do we explain who these people are? Where they come from?  Why were they not also thrown into the lake?

       Does anyone else have any questions such as this ?

    1. aka-dj profile image79
      aka-djposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The verse you quoted is not 21;15! It's vs 8. (Which can seem different if you read it as being a chronological description.)
      But I see this not as being a chronological statement, but rather a reiteration of the final state of those "vile" listed.

      At this final stage, ALL sin and defiled etc will have been permanently done away with. Forever.

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks for your answer.  I was actually reading 22:15 when I ask this question.When I read v.14 and then v15  and in fact this whole chapter it does seem to be in some kind of chronological order but I might be wrong and will keep reading it. I may eventually see it like you say?

      2. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I agree with this statement. It is an analogy that these could not enter in even if they still existed.

    2. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes I have several questions like that. 
      My main one is about the New Jerusalem "coming down" from Heaven..

      I interpret John's vision of that as it "extending down" so that John could see it from his vantage point (which was an "exceeding high mountain",  not "coming down to earth"....

      I've been in Bible Studies where Revelation was discussed and dissected extensively.   I haven't heard an interpretation yet that I totally agree with from any Pastor or other Christian.

      I see Revelation similar to a "movie",  a visual description of Spiritual things.    The Bible elsewhere and there always is based on seeing things with Spiritual eyes.

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I don't want to take over the thread or play answer man all tha time. I mostly want to see what everyone elses questions and answers are and maybe we can work through a few things.     

        Yet I wanna play too. HA 
          I thought that the new Jerusalem was as big as Texas and as tall as it was wide. So it has a top of it. I think.  Will have to go read it.

    3. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Jeremi,

      the ones outside the gates are those who believe but are unable to enter the kingdom of heaven. They are banned from it. As the outer court of the temple was reserved for the 'gentiles' aka unclean. Again, He hates a lies, sorcery -those who misuse the power of the Spirit, etc. these people cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

      that is the -again- interpretation i see in it.

    4. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I believe the new Jerusalem coming down is the same as Hindu philosophy when it says this period known as Kali yoga is when spiritual degeneration is at its peak, when religions and prophets are mocked.

      This ends when a divine being appears and restores order and ushers in the era of satya yug or truth .

  2. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Good night Gotta wake up in about 5 hours.
    Hope someone can answer this question.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Good night ,contemplating on it. smile

  3. kess profile image60
    kessposted 7 years ago

    This is a parable to as to deceive those who trust the written word over the Living Spirit.

    Ask away Jerami, I know you neither your christian Cronies can answer this question, and will of course raise many more.

    Is that not a perfect picture of the blind leading the blind.

    Even if I tell you the answer, you will not believe.

    But it is of and upon Such the kingdom of God is established

    1. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        If this question can be answered, though it raises others ; this will be a good thing. Those other questions that may arise and also be answered would be a good thing.
        It is all ways good to think through tough questions instead of passing over them.

    2. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          In many ways I can see your point...  BUT...
      Sometimes ya gotta have written directions to get ya close enough to the concert hall before ya can hear the music.
          And after you can hear the music ya don't need the directions any more.

    3. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I dare you to "enlighten" us, kess.

      God may have spoken in a form of riddles at some times, but not when it comes to who He is.  His Word makes it clear to us who He is and how we can all be saved, and THAT is through Jesus Christ.
      You, however, always post stuff about how only you or select few can know the truth.

      'Fess up.  Tell me who/what it is you follow.

  4. 0
    SirDentposted 7 years ago

    The first thing I did was go and read some of chapter 21. You have to think about this, many believe those who are cast into the Lake of Fire will be destroyed instantly. This is not true.


    Mar 9:48  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.



    Notice it doesn't say the worm but Their worm. Everyone has their own worm. This worm is whatever they desire more than anything. Thnis worm will not die. One person's worm might be heroin addiction. They will desire their drug, but the desire will not be met. In other words they will be in a constant state of withdrawal.

    We know that these will be cast into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is without(outside} New Jerusalem. They will always remain outside and even out of sight of the New City. Anything that defiles will, not be allowed to enter in.

    Recalling the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham told the rich man that there is a great gulf betweem them that no man can cross. Those on one side cannot get to the other side.

    I realize this is a sort of short answer and I do need to pray and study it more. It is what I have so far.

    1. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks for your  opinion. I have a few thoughts but haven't really come to any conclusion that I'd bet a dollar on .yet
          Am intrested in hearing as many thoughts as possible.
      I just thought that all those that were going to be cast into the fire had already been at this point. But I don't know?

  5. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 7 years ago

    I will add to my post that I DO believe some things in Revelation are literal.
    But most are symbolic.

  6. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago

    a sidebar note:

    my own belief is again that the KoH/KoG is not a specific location but within each of us who believe. So as a believer if one lies, misuses the power/gifts of the Spirit, etc they cannot enter the Kingdom. He said that the Kingdom of Heaven was reserved for those of the child-like faith, meaning a pure heart, good consciousness, sincerity.

    again -my interpretation


    In the literal sense, we know the 12 gates rep the 12 apostles.
    So it is a certainty that John is describing is what transpired before, during and after Y`shua ascended.

    The Law, The False prophet & Lucifer as well as those who had died before He came and refused Him when He went down into the Pit are the ones thrown into the fire.

  7. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Thanks 21days and Brenda.  I can't disagree with anything either of you have said. I try to see the commonalities in statements rather than diffrences. Sometimes we have to take a little of one idea and mix a little of another to come up with one of our own.

  8. 0
    SirDentposted 7 years ago

    I have a little more to add to this question.

    In this present world we have to deal with all these things. We battle them on a daily basis. It is part of who we are as men and women of flesh. Those who have not repented in this life will not be alowed to live in the new world but will be in the lake of fire.

    In  essence, all those who lie, cheat, steal, kill, rape, etc. . .  will already be taken care of. They cannot bother believers anymore and believers will not be tempted by these sins.

  9. kess profile image60
    kessposted 7 years ago

    I follow Him you know not.

    If you truly believed that Christ, then you would know whom/what I follow, for my fruits are in every post and the Christ  said of his disciples that they would

    "Know All things".
     
    I always point men to where the truth lies, and as long as you think that it is in a book, you will continue to speak the lies of the liar. 

    The truth of God is where it has always been from the begining, hidden within you.

    And one must walk in the light to know this light and the light is truth.

    It is good for men to walk in the light of inner truth and believe.

    But when in unbelief they make this truth into a lie, that too is good, for all things are for good even the wicked.

    The things that you seek to know are nothing but the elementary things of the Spirit, but since you seek to know through fleshly methods, you will never see them.

    The writers did not neither will explain except through a parable.

    And the truth is it has been already explained.

    1. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      kess,

      thanks for answering....I think!

      But I'm gonna TRY to not question you anymore, because you persist in speaking in riddles you've made up to avoid answering the questions directly.

      I have the Holy Bible and will stick to that, for it is the word of God.

      And I have Jesus, who IS the Word of God which was made flesh and dwelt among mankind.

  10. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    @ kess said
      The writers did not neither will explain except through a parable.
       Jerami asks...  Then would there not be some truth in these parables for the wise to find truth?
       In the parable that Jesus spoke of the sower, did he not sow sees also into the infertile soil as well as upon the rocks.
    I think that there is truth to be found almost every where.

       All that is necessary is, to see with an open mind.
    kess  said...  And the truth is it has been already explained.

      Jerami thinks ...that the truth will continue to be expressed
    in many ways as long as there is someone looking for it.

      As you say;  Once he has been found we no longer need the directions as to how to find him. For those that have not found him the truth that is hidden in scripture has purpose.
      Just my opinion which also holds some truth as does yours.

  11. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Good  Mornin    @Mohitsmira 
      That sounds like a similarity that should not be overlooked. I either need to Google it , or , hear more ?

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Jerami. smile

      This age called Kali Yuga supposedly started roughly 3000 BC when Krishna was killed with an arrow.A hunter mistakenly shot him while hunting.
      He is now expected again with this age of Aquarius a Vishnu avatar
      and he will herald in this new age of truth a golden age where all will become very spiritual.

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I like the sound of that! And is it contradictory with written scripture?  Maybe not so much?

          I have to run off and take one friend of mine to meet another friend of mine to get a water pump and install and repair broken water lines in his house etc. etc.
          looking forward to finishing this conversation later.

        1. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Scriptures are god taking through man and guide humanity, see you later.

  12. kess profile image60
    kessposted 7 years ago

    There are billions who trust their salvation to a written record of a man 2000 years ago, their faith is in the carnal objects and therefore they are Idols.

    Anything perceive through the carnal senses are nothing, for they are subject to death.

    There is an invisible Spirit that speaks to men in the quietness of their heart. That Spirit is called truth or Christ.

    No man should rest until they know that spirit, and it is his voice which gives up the assurance of Salvation.

    That is my simple message Jerami and Brenda.

    1. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

         kess...  I wish that you could see that I am agreeing with you more than you can see.  BUT  life is kinda like a treasure hunt.  The thuth that you speak of is written in the scripture as the prophets delivered them. It is too bad that Satan's interpretations of those scripture prevail over and above the written text,
          As soon as everyone learns to read scripture disregarding the influences of false interpretations; everyone will see those things that were standing before them all along.

      1. kess profile image60
        kessposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Trust me Jerami, when I say we are eternity apart in our understanding of things.

        You are compelled to agree in theory and not reality, because you cannot speak against the scriptures.

        The reality of the spiritual mind is still foreign to you, and therefore you settle for the substitute "interpretation of scripture".

        Within the Spiritual mind all scriptures are already interpreted in just a matter of walking in their light as the need arises.

        That is why Jesus said he is the fulfilment of the all Scripture, that means both of negatively and positively.

        I am also the fulfillment of the all Scripture and therefore I see all when it becomes necessary.

        When you can say the same of yourself then we agree totally.

        But for now we are antagonist.

        I do hope you can see it is so for the good.
        If then you see it as for the good, your eyes will soon be opened.

  13. Paul Wingert profile image78
    Paul Wingertposted 7 years ago

    99% of the Holy Bible, Hebrew Bible, or the Koran doesn’t fit into my thinking if it is all to be taken literally. These stories were meant to be symbolic and offer answers to life's questions, not to be a history book. If God is the creator of all the heavens, the world and all living things, why didn't he obliterate Satan a long time ago?

    1. Jerami profile image77
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

         The multitudes of interpretations that have been created from scripture does not fit together in anyones mind.

    2. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You are god and you are playing this game, this joke  with yourself its called the cosmic joke.

  14. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    @ kess  There is a narrow path that leads through the gate.
    You "may" be on that path.
      I happen to think that the Lord has provided many smaller trails that can lead to that path.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Narrow path means one pointed concentration or meditation , when they eye be single. smile

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Good morning Mohitmisra.
        and I forgot to say good morning to you also kess.
          A double minded person accomplishes little.
          It is difficult to run in two directions.

          And I will have to travel in a big circle today in order to avoid doing just that. 
          I have to go to work shortly. Going down town to get a part in order to finish what I started yesterday.
           Sometimes nothing goes the way we expect.
           will try to check back in later.
          I always appreciate both of yauls comments.

        1. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Jerami, keep going all paths lead to god. smile

      2. kess profile image60
        kessposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Mohit, it take two eyes to make a clear single three dimensional image and can accurately judge speed and distance.

        When the spiritual eyes take good and evil (two) and make it one Good, then that one is complete in his realization of His salvation.

        He sees himself and God as one.
        His mortality is swallowed up in immortality, that mean he dies no more.
        He knows all
        He can do all
        He is God and son of the most high.

        All this will be achieved by some while still in the flesh.

        This will fulfill the words of Jesus "who so ever lives and believes shall never die" do you believe this?

        1. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          True most of it, omniscience or all knowledge doesnt come with enlightenment. "Why have you forsaken me" Jesus the greatest of prophets do not have all knowledge.
          He knows what god is , and understand that god is his real or inner self but as long as he is in the body he is restricted.
          Yes he overcomes death and understands his immortality.

          In Hindu philosophy there is samadhi and maha samadhi which explains this better.Samadhi is fusing with god the Light and coming back to fulfill a purpose.Maha smadhi is when one doesnt come back merges with god for eternity unless he comes back for a divine purpose.

          1. kess profile image60
            kessposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            All knowledge is the completion of the work of the Christ and at that time the singleness of eye is complete and the whole body is full of light as the Christ said.

            This speaks of us as a single person, and us as the body of Christ.
            When all are filled with the knowledge of God and none need to teach the other.

            Samadhi and maha samadhi concept is referenced by the life of Enoch and Elijah. 

            The end of this age will be completed with a similarity of this concept.

            1. mohitmisra profile image61
              mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I agree gaining god knowledge is the pinnacle of knowledge but is not omniscience.Who can be sure what end of  this age  will be about,it is just the beginning.This is supposedly the end of kali yug and the beginning of satya yug.Then this cycle is supposed to repeat itself.

    2. kess profile image60
      kessposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      The gate is ONE the path is ONE, the trails are many,
      only those on the ONE path on going to the ONE gate,
      can point the way to those on the trails.

      There are many endlessly following smaller trails ignoring the ONE narrow path (looks like another trail).

      But Jerami have you considered that truth could have told you I would respond this way before you posted?

  15. kess profile image60
    kessposted 7 years ago

    There are somethings that one must know by revelation of the Christ only.
    So therefore I will not offer any explanation except  one which we are all familiar.

    The seed of a fruit represents an entire tree. When it abides in the darkness of the earth, there is matured to overcome the earth and bear fruits of it's kind.

    We men are seed of light which represents and entire tree once we overcome our earth (flesh) and fold it away and establish ourselves upon and within it.

    So the flesh ( can referred to as nothing) which God has given to us, represent the all that God had and just As He did overcome to establish himself and His Kingdom.
    The same Way the children of God will overcome nothing.

    God is not Stingy He is very generous to His sons, for it is His pleasure to give us all of His Kingdom. And He did that By giving us Nothing.

    Mohit, The Spirit of Truth can give you the finer details.

    But I do agree while of are still in the flesh we will not realise all of this for we have not yet overcome all.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Kess I am a knower of the Light and understand my limitations.

 
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