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2,000 Year Old Grudge

  1. Paul Wingert profile image79
    Paul Wingertposted 6 years ago

    For about 2,000 years, Jews have taken the rap for the crucifixion of Jesus. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment set aside for slaves, rebels and Jews. When Jerusalem was under Roman occupation, only the Roman government had the authority to put anyone to death. Pilate would have the last word on Jesus’ fate and according to Roman records (not the Bible), Pilate was nothing nice to the Jews. Pilate had a long history of controlling unruly Jewish gatherings by send in a Roman legion and have them all slaughtered. That was Pilate’s idea of crowd control, and by doing that got himself sent to the far end of the Empire to keep him out of the Emperor’s hair. So it was the Romans, now the Jews who executed Christ. The only thing the Romans get blamed for is poor driving skills!

    1. 0
      SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The Jews were the ones shouting, "Crucify Him!" These are the same ones who were healed by Him.

      aka said it right. No man could take His life. He couldn't die. Death had no power over Him at all. He gave His life as a ransom for all men.

      1. 61
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        The Jesus myth is one of fool-proof contradiction. A son of a god is a god, no matter how you look at it, and since he was the son of a god, he couldn't die.

        Hence, his death was faked by him to fool everyone into believing he actually died.

        1. 0
          SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Pretty good at faking a death. Hanging on a cross with a spear thrust into His side.

          His death wasn't a Hollywood stunt as many may think. God can do anything. This just happened to be one of the most important things He did.

          1. 61
            (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            It doesn't matter what terrestrial pain and suffering you believed was caused, he was a god and could not die.



            Then, by your own logic that "God can do anything" he can also fake his death.

            You agree with me.

            1. 0
              SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I do not agree with you but I do modify my statement. God can do anything but he cannot sin.

              1. 61
                (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Of course, you don't agree. This wonderful little contradiction that YOU admit demonstrates the house of cards your faith is built.

                Faking a death is not a sin. smile

                1. 0
                  SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I wonder if you have ever made a mistake in your life. Of course you don't have to answer because it might ruin your credibility. If you admit that you made a mistake, then you claim that you are not perfect. If you say that you have never made a mistake then you call yoruself a liar.

                  I made a mistake and corrected it. God didn't make the mistake.

                  1. 61
                    (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, we all make mistakes. I admit mine, and have done so here, in fact.



                    So what?



                    You can remain in denial your whole life as I'm sure you will, but the fact of the matter is that if a god exists, he cannot die. Period.

                    You and every Christian were duped by your own false logic.

    2. twuxedo profile image60
      twuxedoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Jews, my friend Look after only Jews. Gentiles they treat badly. I have had enough of the way Jews are treated.
      Let them look at their History. I mean Palestine isn't theirs. Doesn't stop them wanting it.

    3. pylos26 profile image75
      pylos26posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The nat'l guard that killed the student at Kent State were actually Hitler's storm troopers...ahhh...under jewish influence.

  2. khmohsin profile image60
    khmohsinposted 6 years ago

    hmm, this seems to be informative, but I lack background information on the topic, can you make a hub on this topic, short and precise but with little background info, thanks.

  3. aka-dj profile image78
    aka-djposted 6 years ago

    I think you missed the point anyway!

    Jesus Himself said that no man takes His life from Him. He followed on, by stating that He had the power (and authority) to "lay it down, and rise again".
    That was His entire mission, to deal with the SIN problem.
    The Romans (and Jews) were just the means/vehicle, by which death was "administered".

    We can blame whoever we want, but the reality is, that  each ONE OF US is guilty (or responsible) for His death. It was our SIN that neccessitated His appearing in the first place. cool

    1. Sara Tonyn profile image60
      Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this



      How am I guilty of Christ's death? Seriously. I've never understood the guilt-by-association type logic.

      1. aka-dj profile image78
        aka-djposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        This not the place to explain it.
        I, (and many others) have a Hub to do that.
        Try searching "SIN" in Hubsearch, and read some of the Hubs that come up. big_smile

      2. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You are not.

        This is the nonsensical "I have a personal relationship with god, but I get my instructions out of a badly mis-translated 2000-year-old book that I do not and can not understand, so please believe what I believe," argument that causes all the wars.

        They do not understand this though.

        Because they speak for GOD. lol lol lol

        1. aka-dj profile image78
          aka-djposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hello!Mark.
          The great deffender arrives on the scene just in the nick of time to stop another war.
          lol lol lol

        2. Sara Tonyn profile image60
          Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Whew. Okay then, that's that! big_smile

      3. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
        LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It is not that you are guilty of Christ's death because your uncle Fred took part in the crucifixtion.

        The idea is that because Jesus took on the sin of the whole world and died to destroy the power of that sin over mankind we(all of mankind) are responsible for His having to come and die....does that explain it ny better?

        His death was a love choice.....trust me, God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not mad at you or anybody else....

        1. goldenpath profile image82
          goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I second that! smile

        2. Sara Tonyn profile image60
          Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The idea of dying to destroy the power of sin sounds great but wasn't it God who created sin? So why the need to manifest in human form to get rid of its power? Why wouldn't God just say, "Sin, you're outta here!" and *poof* no more sin?

          And one other thing... Sin is still around, alive and well, so does that mean God couldn't destroy its power?

          1. Mikel G Roberts profile image90
            Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Nice...

            Well Stated and true, another one of those we didn't think this out very well, good thing we created the catch 22 of 'Thou shall not question the Church'...(those Roman Senators were nothing if not smart)

            1. Sara Tonyn profile image60
              Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              There were pretty good with lion acts, too.

              I mean, unless you were a Christian.

              1. Mikel G Roberts profile image90
                Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                lol....that's just wrong...lol

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Totally understand why they were fed to the lions. big_smile

                  1. Mikel G Roberts profile image90
                    Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    lol@Mark
                    and in response to your earlier statement of: "Oo Oo, I have done that and discoverd that it is all a fairy tale and does not make any sense."

                    God is a Paradox... that is why the God concept doesn't make sense. By it's nature, it's very definition, it is confusing. Which makes your statement true, The God concept doesn't make sense, and yet... it does.

      4. Jane@CM profile image59
        Jane@CMposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah, I don't get the guilt part either, since I was born a few years after he died.

    2. 61
      The Paulposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      That's not how time works.

      1. Valerie F profile image60
        Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah, well, try telling that to an infinite being.

        1. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Try proving an infinite being exists? Before you go claiming one does or did exist. smile

          Just a thought. smile

          1. 0
            SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            No one can prove that an infinite being exists except for that being Himself. He did that even before Jesus hung on the cross.

            I recall seeing children putting their finger sin their ears to keep from hearing something a parent was telling them. They knew they were in trouble and did soemthing wrong. This is what I am reminded of in these threads.

            Anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus don;t want to hear the truth. They simply want to do their own thing and they don't care what they say or who they say it to. They stand in the way of those who want to know Jesus.

            1. Cagsil profile image84
              Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Did you live at the time? How do you know? The Bible isn't a reputable source of information. And, you use it like it is a true story. You have be mystified by the one thing Jesus told you to stay away from.

              I mean, come on, be serious. Why do YOU believe?


              Nice comparison, but my mother is sitting in the other room and my father has already died.

              So, please don't use a profoundness about parents, then compare them to your false "GOD", because one is real the other isn't.

              You wouldn't know truth, if it bit you in the leg. There is NO truth in the words of the bible or religion.

              There is a good reason for this.....it is called - CONSCIOUSNESS!

              You might consider using your to understand your life. Life, has more meaning than you give it, because you claim a "GOD" created life on Earth, which is false and cannot be proven, by anyone, much less yourself.

              1. 0
                SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Who says the Bible isn't a reputable source? Everyone talks about proof and evidence. I have seen it stated many times since I came here yet not one has shown any proof that is beyiond a doubt.

                If everyone was so sure of themselves and what they believe or don't believe, they would have no problem showing the evidence.




                Either way, you still refuse the truth.



                Again, I say prove it.



                CONSCIOUSNESS is a new age term. It is used in stating that one will rise up to the same spiritual vibration as Jesus and actually becaome the Christ.

                You still have not shown the evidence.

                1. Cagsil profile image84
                  Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Look outside your deceptive words of religion and you might actually find yourself, nevermind "GOD" of all things. lol

                  1. 0
                    SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    You call me deceptive when you have failed to even attempt to answer one of my questions to you. I used to walk the same path that you do. No good will come of it I assure you.

                2. twuxedo profile image60
                  twuxedoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  The reality of this is that no one can prove anything either way.
                  Science I guess will eventually break-through with the correct answer, then and only then can a theory of a Diety be proven or not.
                  We have learned so much, DNA was a remarkable breakthrough, in mapping the Blue Print for Life, that being said we still have much research to do, before we find out exactly what the answer is.
                  While I can understand the Atheists and  Agnostics, inability to accept any theory until given Proof.
                  I kind of wonder about the Religious beings that say they have Proof, when they really do not.
                  The writings were by human beings and we all know how wrong people can get things.
                  So personally I do believe there was such a Man a Jesus, there is proof of his existence, but photographs did not exist, and the stories are accounts by mere Mortals.
                  None of these people on here have the Proof to convince either side, hence the towing and throwing that goes on in these religious Panels.

                  1. Sara Tonyn profile image60
                    Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Yep!  big_smile

                    But it'll never stop. lol

    3. goldenpath profile image82
      goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Everything stated above is true.  Both groups were responsible.  The Jewish heirarchy at the time were idol worshippers - primarily that of power.  They did not seek inspiration but they did make a habit of seeking signs in various combinations of numbers as many do today. 

      Now, being a God Himself He needed to be the one to atone for the ills of the Earth including sin.  Why Him?  Because He was the chosen one over Lucifer in the existence prior to Earth.  Without Him and the sacrifice mankind would have no potential to obtain the presence of the Father again and to continue into progression which is the mission and the glory of the Father and the Son.

      How do we share responsibility?  For the many of us who have taken upon ourselves the covenant to follow Him we are sharers of the graves He took upon Himself.  Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ we are "purchased" by the Savior.  That is the price we also pay for the mere opportunity of the Father's presence once again.  Especially for us in the covenant with Him we further put Him to shame upon our own cross when we opt into sinful paths. 

      In fact, He has said that if we will not repent we shall suffer even as He has.  That too is part of the price we pay for being purchased.  It is a wonderful service He put into action for us because He loves us.  However, that also puts us at an immense responsibility to maintain our personal integrity and virtue to follow Him.

      It was a price that had to be paid - and He paid it, but the gift is definitely not free.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        And you cannot see how ridiculous the idea of a "gift" that you must pay for is? lol

        Here is a new iPhone - You owe me $400..........

        1. goldenpath profile image82
          goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          For personal salvation and eternal progression - yes, it's completely fair.

        2. aguasilver profile image88
          aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The 'gift' is eternal, the 'cost'is temporal and is actually only surrendering that which you think you own, in effect we give back what we thought to possess that was not ours to claim.

          I had a pastor once who was baptising folk on the beach (which we still do today) and as he stood there watching the fun an old woman asked what they were doing, he explained that the folk were being baptised, she asked 'What does it cost' and he replied 'Everything you've got'.

          'I though so? she said, and drifted off.

          He was joking, she was confirming what she thought she knew.

          Everyone is speaking of matters that cannot be understood by those who have never experienced them.

  4. salt profile image65
    saltposted 6 years ago

    I might not be the popular one in these forums, but I like to think of us all as belonging to tribes... that our beginnings have bonds beyond the roman invasions.

    I think that is important to understand and will help build bridges beyond religion. As war and religion seem to have seperated and been used to subvert and conquer. Seeing our earlier beliefs and understanding where we came from might put our religious differences aside alittle, help us understand our common histories and let the church return to its role as a place for spiritual being.

    1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Sounds like a plan...but, the history of mankind begins with religion...so, there is no place to go to where we will not have differences in our serious beliefs....you might as well stop trying to remove religion or faith from the day to day realities of human existance....it just can't be done...might as well pick a side...

      Choose ye this day life or death, blessings or curses..(if I had to choose, I would choose life) wink

  5. Greg Cremia profile image59
    Greg Cremiaposted 6 years ago

    Haters will hate.

    1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      absolutely....but, those who love will continue to love cool

  6. IzzyM profile image85
    IzzyMposted 6 years ago

    I thought everyone knew that Jesus was an alien from outer space, and that he came here in a spacecraft - the 'star' followed by the three wise men.
    Christianity is based on ET acivity.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image90
      Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      hey you read my hub....wink

  7. Cagsil profile image84
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    He death was meaningless, devoid of any compassionate reason.

    He was executed, for his defiance of religious/spiritual leaders of his time.

    Him dying, had absolutely nothing to do with sin of the world of humanity. It had to do with greed of the Roman Leaders.

    Again, if a "GOD" comes to Earth, YOU and EVERYONE else wouldn't know the difference, because you would listen to someone claiming to be "GOD" without proof.

    He would tell you his living is proof enough, and you would tell him he is wrong and that you worship the only true "GOD" and his name is Jesus Christ.

    And, at that point, I am of the understanding, your life would end shortly there after.

    Just a thought? smile

    1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      WoW! You sound like a person who is true to his convictions and requires logical proof before you make a choice to believe anything....Now, don't get mad at me...I just want to know a few things, if that is alright with you...if not, that's O.K. too..
      Why are you so adamant that it isn' like the Bible says it is? Why can't it be true? Are you afraid that if it is true that you would have to change?

      Just asking....big_smile

      1. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well, since you like to ask questions, I'll indulge you.

        Why are you so admant that it isn't like the Bible says it is? Answer: Because SCIENCE has already deemed religion fake, some 40 years ago.

        Why can't it be true? Because science has already figured out how the Earth came to be and how life came from the Evolution of Earth.

        Are you afraid that if it is true that you would have to change? I fear nothing, including death. Change is what I already did, from being a believer....to a non-believer....to a complete rejectionist of all mystical faith based religions.

        Get mad at you? For what, asking questions for which I already have answers for. Now, that wouldn't make any sense. Would it?

        Does that satisfy your curious nature? Or do you have more questions?

        Just asking....?

        1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
          LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Now, you already know that as long as I can read and write, I'll have a question or two...but, putting all banter aside, I do want to ask you a serious question, and that is, "What happened to you?".    You wrote,
               
          " Change is what I already did, from being a
          believer....to a non-believer....to a complete
          rejectionist of   all mystical faith based religions.
          ."

          My heart goes out when I read or hear about situations that have happened in peoples lives that have resulted in their turning from God... I will not try to convert you, I just want to know what the circumstances were.....please

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yeah - open your heart to this total stranger who has completely dismissed your lack of belief as "turning from god," and therefore wrong.

            Gotta love the fake sympathy as well. Her "heart goes out" when  she hears someone has made a rational decision not to believe in the nonsensical fairy tale she subscribes to. She pities you even. big_smile

            So Leslie:

            What on earth happened to you that you need to pretend there is a magical life after death with jesus rather than accept the realities of life?

            It must have been something pretty horrible to make you believe such utter nonsense.

            You can share - you are among friends. wink

            1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
              LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              You are funnier than he is.... lol At least get your facts right before you bring our blade....I never said he was wrong, and,since the question was not posed to you, I wouldn't expect you to recognize or know the factual difference between compassion, sympathy, empathy or pity....so, let's not go there....

              To oblige you and answer your question, as to what happened to me.... As you suggest, it was truly horrific, absolutely aweful........I found out that in all of my experiences,vast education, extensive travel, popularity and financial success somethng was missing from my life.

              And, instead of getting angry and try to disprove, fight against and wonder about God, I was brave enough to simply ask in sincerity that He prove Himself to me.....

              Ya gotta love it cool

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                So sorry you need to invent an invisible friend to fill the gap in your life. I pity you.

                I wonder if you realize how condescending you come across as to others? I suspect not. People who need to fill the void in their life with imaginary invisible super beings tend to do that. At least you are not threatening me with burning at the stake unless I jump on your bandwagon, so things have moved forward a little. But  the next time you are condescending and dismissive of others who do not share your irrational beliefs - I will ridicule you - just like it says in the bibel. wink

                Clever dudes wrote that book.

                "Go around being a condescending a-hole, ridiculing people who do not share your beliefs - and they will make fun of you. Don't worry about them - they are satan's minions and will get what is coming to them."

                Mark 1:10 lol

                1. Valerie F profile image60
                  Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  To invent and worship an "imaginary friend" is actually prohibited by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

                  But otherwise, it's better to have the gap in your life filled with something imaginary that's better than anything the so-called "real world" has to offer.

                  (BTW, I believe a "real world" without God is imaginary.)

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    No - just imaginary friends that are not the same as their imaginary friend.

                    "No imaginary friends before me," or something. lol

                2. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                  LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  You know, you just might be right...When you are adamant about an issue, and believe that you are absolutely right, you just might sound condescending....(we could get real technical about the tone of these posts, but that isn't necessary)

                  But, let me assure, If my posts sound condscending I apologize because that is he last thing I want to do.....l truly an interested in why people truly reject Jesus, that is all....

                  Now, don't get confused, I am as polarized about what I say as you are about what you say. I am fully convinced and persuaded that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that He carried the sin of the world because He loves every person, that He forgives us before we mess up, that He paid the price for my inherited transgression, that His shed blood created a covenant between anyone who receives Him as there personal Lord and Savior and God almighty, that there is no sin or offense, (no matter how vile), that He doesn't forgive and forget, and finally, invisible or not He sho' is real!!!  cool I'm telling you, you need to have the experience for yourself.....you will never be the same.....big_smile (Just like it says in the Bible big_smile

                  In sincerity, I don't mean to sound "better" than anyone, so, when I sound like that, if you keep reading my posts, please let me know....I'll listen

                  Oh and about your "threat" to ridicule me....lol  Oooooo, If I cared, I would be scared........but, I dont', so I'm not ......(now that is just a bit of ridicule for you)  In fact I'll see your threat and raise you two.lol

                  Love ya....

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    See - the "love ya" is the real reason why I originally rejected your ridiculous religion.

                    You ridicule me and tell me you love me. You also apologize for being condescending and go on to do it again.

                    Clearly you do not actually love me. I suspect it is this hypocrisy that persuades many people not to believe the same rubbish that you do.

                    Obviously - you do not actually believe it - nor do you follow the teachings of the person you claim to be emulating.

                    Ergo - it is wrong. Simple really. I was not threatening you - just telling you what your bibel tells you. Behave in this fashion and you will be ridiculed. And I will be one of the one's pointing the finger. What is "threatening" about that?

                    So - I guess the simple answer to why people choose not to believe the garbage you believe - is you. And that is the generic "you" which includes the billions of believers who do not follow the teachings - and just preach them.

                    I am not interested in your love thanks. It is too painful and I have experienced it from other people who claim to have a personal relationship with jesus and demonstrate the fact that they do not. If you genuinely loved me - you would never phrase a question in such absolute terms as to completely dismiss my opinion. That is the problem with your belief system. No room for compromise or tolerance, My way or the high way. There is no possibility that your belief system is wrong - merely that some people choose to "reject" it for selfish reasons and are therefore agents of the devil who will pay a terrible price when the time comes. lol Come Soon Lord Jesus! lol

                    Pretty obnoxious if you think about it rationally - and this is where all the animosity comes from.

                    You asked.

                  2. 61
                    (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Jesus is a myth. Simple really. Are you satisfied?



                    Then, as a son of a GOD, he couldn't die. You've been duped by a charlatan.



                    Unicorns and leprechauns are invisible, too.



                    You do and you won't.

  8. IzzyM profile image85
    IzzyMposted 6 years ago

    So because he obviously wasn't human, he was a God and not an ailen?

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image90
      Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What If?  ......

    2. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      He was a human male. Nothing more. smile

      1. NewYorker profile image81
        NewYorkerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Who was?

  9. IzzyM profile image85
    IzzyMposted 6 years ago

    He had to have been a pretty amazing man to have done the things he did, and to still be talked about 2000 years later.
    He was not a God, imo, nor the son of God.
    Amazing, none the less.

    1. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Would it be too difficult for you to accept, what was claimed to be seen, wasn't real accounts of his actions, but only images others had imagined to be so, so they wrote about them, instead of what happened?

      That's okay, it was a shock to me too, when I studied religion, to only find out much of what during his time is misconstrued throughout all of religion, only because his followers would not follow religion.

      Jesus' works was not added to religion or any part of any form of religion. He work was coded in the primitive language of his time, so he wouldn't be detected by the Romans. Thus, he would be able to practice his teachings and not be found out.

      His execution came about, because he despised the religious leaders of his time, and they couldn't afford to let him continue teaching. Therefore, he was killed, as an example for those who go against religion. smile

      Just a thought. smile

      1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
        LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You know, I like you...you have studied the secular, historical and political aspects of the life and times of Christ...the only issue is that you are drawing from the information that others have written about Christ....what about what He says about Himself? Knowing that you are a seeker of truth, I challenge you to read the 4 Gospel writers accounts of the life of Christ....Read them with an open mind....you see, each one was written with an emphasis on a specfic group of people...Matthew was writen for the Jews, Mark was written for the Romans, Luke was written for the Gentiles and John is written for the person who doesn't believe....

        You don't have to tell us what you discover...just do it for yourself smile

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Oo Oo, I have done that and discoverd that it is all a fairy tale and does not make any sense.

          I have also discovered that when believers use the term "open minded" what they really mean is "suspend disbelief." wink

          1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
            LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            What can we say about your "discoveries"......hmmmm.... Oh, I know....where is any proof outsde of yourself?

            (And don't say Science.....because Science proves the facts of the Bible--did you know that?)

            wink

            1. 61
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              That would be a lie--did you know that?

              1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                That Science proves the facts of the Bible....give me a week, I'll get you the secular references.....or maybe I'll write a hub about it....Either way I'll have post some info in about a week.....

                1. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Take a million years if you want. The bible is a book of myths and superstitions.

    2. Valerie F profile image60
      Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, if he did the things he did and said the things he said, but was not God the Son incarnate, that would make him a pretty amazing liar or a nutcase.

  10. 0
    SirDentposted 6 years ago

    It seems that many will make every excuse possible to not believe. Some say Jesus was an alien. Some say He was just a man who was killed for His own actions. Others say he never existed. Many things have been said about this one person.

    Debates have gone on for ages about Him. Even just that one fact in itself shows that there is something more to Him than the mind of man can even imagine.

    The Bible was written by many different people during different times. It was wirtten by Kings, Shepherds, Fisherman etc. . . It cannot be understood by those who do not even believe God is real.

    Now I ask those of you who do not believe. What is the real reason you do not believe?

    1. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      My reason would be backed by research. smile

      1. 0
        SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        How can your research be trusted? Did you interview Jesus? Did you ascend to heaven and interview God Himself?

        My opinion is that you used the writings of a man named Gerald Massey for much of your research. Of course, that is only my opinion.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          DID YOU?!

      2. Valerie F profile image60
        Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Pfft. Research is only as good as its sources.

        Back to topic. Here's the Christian take on who is responsible for Christ's crucifixion. Note that the Bible never said that the "crowd" which clamored for crucifixion was made up entirely of Jews. It also says that Christ died for the sins of everyone in the world, past, present, and future. So it is un-Christian to assign blame to anyone other than one's own self.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Like the Bible, for example? wink

    2. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What utter nonsense.

      The reason it is talked about is the incessant bleating of people such as yourself. Fortunately - we no longer have to put up with your nonsense.

      You have no proof - none. So - more to the point - Why do you believe when there is absolutely zero evidence. None.

      Not only that - but it doesn't even make sense unless you already decide to believe even though it makes no sense.

      For myself - I do not believe because -

      1. It makes no sense
      2. There is absolutely no evidence for and  lots of evidence against
      3. People like you

      You do not understand. I have never seen one ounce of understanding from you. A blind belief in the un-understandable that you cannot even explain and are forced to say "if you believed you would understand," LOLOL - sure. Great. wink

      1. 0
        SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        What I believe is worse that you believing in a deck of cards?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I don't "believe," in a deck of cards. LOLOLO

          Tarot cards - like any tool such as the bible - allow a look within. LOL Only religionists such as yourself think it applies outside of you.

          But - well done - nice distraction. Jesus was god after all then. LOLOLOLOLOLO

      2. 0
        SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I see more threads started here by non believers than I do believers. So the incessant bleating comes mostly from those. It is true you don't have to read or reply but yet you do for some unknown reason.

        You say there is no proof, but there is lots of proof. You like to turn a blind eye to it but it is there.

        Does everything have to make sense in order to be real?

        It is undertsandable, but only if you are willing to understand. I go back to the child with fingers in it's ears.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          LOLOLOL

          Please do not call me a child and you are the parent with the answer. LOLOLOLO

          And LOL - no proof. Sorry "Oh - a tree - proof!" does not cut it.
          And yes - there are non believers who see your religion as evil and disgusting and want to put a stop to it.

          You could shut us up as little as 100 years ago. No more Dent.

          I will not shut up - sorry - just because I despise it and want it stopped does not mean I believe. And your message is pure hatred. Calling it "love" will not change that. wink

          1. 0
            SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I am glad to see you admit to starting threads just to cause trouble between believers ans atheists.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              No Dent. I admit to no such thing. But - I see you are a genuine christian after all. The trouble starts the moment you start telling me you have an answer and I am being childish by ignoring the truth you have - when you then behave like this. (see above) Lololololol

              1. 0
                SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I don't recall saying that I have the answers. You admitted to starting threads just to cause trouble. Your quote: I will not shut up - sorry - just because I despise it and want it stopped does not mean I believe. And your message is pure hatred. Calling it "love" will not change that. wink

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  LOLOLOL

                  How does "I will not shut up - sorry - just because I despise it and want it stopped does not mean I believe." mean I "admitted to starting threads just to cause trouble"? LOLOLOLOLO

                  Oh yes - you are using "scripture to interpret scripture." to make it mean what you want. Just like you do with the good bok. How very christian of you. wink

                  1. 0
                    SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Nice way of twisting things around. You are very good at it. You mentors must be proud.

                    Silly me, I forgot you are your own man. You have no mentors.

                  2. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                    LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Knowles....you sound a little confused on that last post....maybe you should pray...

    3. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      the real reason I don't believe is that I can't believe in anything that's not Real to me.
      I can't see God. I don't believe.
      I see myself. I believe.
      My believe is ME.
      And no. I don't believe some kind of God, made me.
      I don't see any reason to believe Life has been created by a God.

      1. 0
        SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        At least you did give me an answer. That shows integrity in my book. smile

      2. pigfish profile image74
        pigfishposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        you can't see the wind...and yet it's real

        1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
          LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Love ya Pigfish....simple and to the point

          1. Cagsil profile image84
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            To bad the point didn't matter, because it was false to begin with. smile

            1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
              LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Now, now,...don't get jealous, I was talking to Pigfish...

        2. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Actually, if you look close enough, you can see the wind. smile

    4. cheaptrick profile image69
      cheaptrickposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus Christ was a New Concept in the evolution of human Awareness.Weather he existed as a person is not the point.
      The evolutionary step forward(which was left with the Gnostic's)had to do with the components and integration of the human Psyche(Soul translates into Psyche in ancient Greek)from which "Believing"will actually manifest materially.
      "It was the simplicity of what he taught that made them stumble".
      Again and again the lesson was just BELIEVE and it would happen.
      "IT" was left up to the individual!
      The root word of "Holy" is Whole witch requires all components of experience.

      Who did God say was a man after his own heart?
      DAVID and that boy screwed up more than any one!
      But he was great at NOT making the same mistake again(Repentance).
      If you really want to understand the lessons advanced through the concept or symbol called Christ you should study the representative language used at the time.
      Sorry I rambled on...

  11. Valerie F profile image60
    Valerie Fposted 6 years ago

    You know, the thread was started to address anti-Semitic misreadings of Scripture- NOT whether or not God exists, and not as a forum for Mark Knowles to once again spout off his own brand of hatred.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      LOL

      No - just pointing out why your ridiculous religion causes so much hatred. Starting with the anti semitism caused by the jews demanding the death of jesus.

      Oh - that's right - you do not understand why your book was written. wink

      You must be a christian..........

      1. Valerie F profile image60
        Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Again, the Bible never said it was just Jews demanding the death of Jesus, but holds us all accountable. Anything else is a misinterpretation.

        And you're one to complain about spreading hatred, since you excel at doing just that yourself. Hypocrite.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          No - I am honest about hating your religion. You are the one pretending it is "love."

          Feel free to look up the meaning of the word "hypocrite".........

          1. 0
            SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            So then you are on a crusade to destroy Christianity? You do not have the power to do it.

          2. Valerie F profile image60
            Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Hatred of any religion is just as bad as hating a race, a gender, even a sexual orientation.

            If you decry everyone else's hatred and prejudice, but think your hatred is perfectly fine, you are a hypocrite.

            1. 61
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Nonsense, there is huge distinction between ideologies and people, or didn't you know that?



              You just don't get it, do you? You're ideology is filled with hatred and prejudice, amongst other vile and despicable ideals. The rest of us are simply fed up with it being shoved down our throats and how its destroying mankind.

              Understand now?

              1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Q...if you are that "fed up" why are you in this forum and why are swallowing enough of our ideology to choke a horse ....and, then you get mad at us because you ate it?

                The one thing that un-believers don't understand is that they can NEVER deter a believer.....NEVER.......that's why most of us who are confident in what we believe can continue in conversation with you.....we really love you and will answer any question that you ask.....

                Now, if you answer this post, please don't call me any ugly names big_smile

              2. Valerie F profile image60
                Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                According to Christianity, the Church is the people. You hate the Church, you hate a group of people.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Wow - you really are desperate to be like jesus.

                  A martyr. wink

                  1. Valerie F profile image60
                    Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    No. I just don't fall for any mealymouth, hollow platitudes like "I don't hate the people- I just hate their beliefs (or fill in the blank with whatever makes these people different from you)."

                2. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I thought you had more sense than that, obviously not. Ideologies are not people, no matter how much you believe it.

                  1. h.a.borcich profile image60
                    h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      So what are you saying Q...that you hate christian ideas or the christians/people?

                  2. Valerie F profile image60
                    Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Ideologies are a defining factor for some people. They are what make Christians Christian and what make atheists atheist.

          3. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
            LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Kowles, why are you calling folks names? You must be infuriated.....All people want is for you to be able to open your heart to the possibility that God's Word is true.....what if....????

  12. Kristi Jo Fleming profile image76
    Kristi Jo Flemingposted 6 years ago

    You should really do your homework b4 u try to disclaim God.... The Bible is historically accurate and many scientists actually have proven most of it true already. Many of these scientists were not Christian b4 they found out what they know now.  If you really believe that this world just came together through the big bang or that you grew from slime on a rock or evolved from a monkey... i love that i get to be the one to tell you that it takes more FAITH to believe that.  By the way where can I send you flowers on your most sacred day?? I really would love to send you flowers.  Of course you know that your day is April FOOLS day.  And another thing I dont have to  posts dumb posts to try and PROVE God exists... I already know He does.  But you are so nervous about being proven WRONG that you felt compelled to write your comment.  Its funny how the devil gets so argumentative when believers in Jesus are in the midst.  Well never the less I will pray for you that God shows you that he is real.  I hope you dont burst into flames as I commit the rest of my day holding you up in prayer to the one and ONLY TRUE LIVING GOD ALMIGHTY MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH.  PRAISE BE TO GOD MY ROCK AND MY SALVATION AND YOUR CREATOR.  btw I heard today that someone told a friend of mine that they believed in God but that He doesn't do miracles anymore.  For you and that person... things dont happen because you wouldn't believe it anyway if it did.  God bless you.

    1. tantrum profile image60
      tantrumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Are we in danger of bursting in flames ?? yikes

      So what are you doing here ?

      Run!!!
      lol

      1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
        LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You might not burst into flame...but you might slowly roast over an open fire...either way, it's not good tongue

  13. Mark Knowles profile image60
    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

    lol

    1. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol

      1. 0
        SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Pro 1:26  I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

        1. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          When FEAR cometh?

          What am I suppose to fear?

          Imaginary things cannot hurt real things, unless real things give in to the imaginary items/images.

          Nice try tho. smile

          1. 0
            lyricsingrayposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            define what is an imaginary thing and what is a real thing.

            1. Cagsil profile image84
              Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              An imaginary is an image/picture in your head.

              Real is real.

      2. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        'Tis the only sensible response. lol

  14. Sara Tonyn profile image60
    Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago

    I'm late to the party so forgive me if this has already been discussed 1000 times.

    When you non-believers ask for proof, are you insisting that it is tangible?

    If so, do you believe thoughts exist? Where is the tangible proof?

    Again, if this has been asked and answered before, please just gently slap me up side the head and I'll stop.

  15. Cagsil profile image84
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    Unfortunately, everything you just said, isn't proven to any extent, to justify belief in an imaginary being.

    As for the beginning of the world? That doesn't start with religion, and never has. smile

    1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Well, let us clarify our terms...religion is actually not the right word...the word should be woship

      From the beginning of the world, mankind has worshipped something or someone...you know it and so does everyone else...
      wink

  16. 0
    sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago

    Poor atheists, just rebels without a cause. We still love you.smile

    1. twuxedo profile image60
      twuxedoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think that this is the type of arrogant, comment that I havecome to expect from the so called Christians, "give me a Break"

  17. 0
    SirDentposted 6 years ago

    Pro 26:4  Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Pro 26:4  Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

  18. cheaptrick profile image69
    cheaptrickposted 6 years ago

    I'm curious here.I keep reading Sin is the problem but wonder what it is defined as.Does sin change in context with the period in which the writer lives?Are sins the same from society to society?What effect do sins have and upon what?
    The Christian Gnostic's of the first century believed the Spirit was sent to earth to nurture a seed entrusted to them by God,they called the seed there souls.They considered anything that distracted them from maturing the seed a sin.The Gnostic's taught that sin was unavoidable in the physical world because it was necessary for the maintenance of the body,IE,thinking about eating,shelter,social order,etc.All were considered as being detractors from the task of the spirit which should be focused on growing the soul.So what is sin in today's world?

    1. aguasilver profile image88
      aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Cheaptrick,

      Sin by definition is 'missing the target' and is used in archery, in a biblical sense it is similar to the Gnostic concept, in that sin is anything that separates you from God, but obviously there are specific 'sins' that you would find in the bible.

      When someone says they do not sin, they are lying, which is a sin in itself.

      All have sinned. Period, punto!

      If we sin enough, we get a hardened and 'seared' consciousness and fail to recognise sin as sin.

      Nice avatar! wink

      1. 0
        sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Nicely put! Great job!big_smile

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks, I knew you'd like it.

    2. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Cheaptrick,

      Just wanted to add that everyone was born into sin, some call it the original sin. Adam and Eve are the parents of all of mankind (color, race, etc...doesn't matter), their disobedience to the command of God thrust them and every person ever to be born into the world into a "state of sin"....Sin is passed on almost like a birth mark....It is from this sin that all other sin or resultant sin proceeds.....So, the issue is not the resultant sin, it is the primary sin.  If we can clean up the primary sin from the individuals heart,than the individual will have the strength to deal with and resist the secondary sin......Jesus Christ, the only sinless man has eradicated the primary sin. The world is changed one person at a time.

      Believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died for you ad that He was raised from the dead coupled with asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart and to become your Lord and Savior is what eradicates the primary sin.wink

      1. cheaptrick profile image69
        cheaptrickposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        What is Original Sin?Why did Adam Realize he was naked"After" eating from the tree?Is it possible that the story of the "Garden"was allegorical representing the birth of Self awareness in humans and Adam was the first person to experience this?Remember,God created humans on the sixth day..

        1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
          LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The original Sin is the first act of disobedience to God....Adam realized that he had messed up a good thing....

          I don't think that you can logically or by faith see the story as an allegory because there is not enough information ..

          You surely confuse me....You deny the facts of the Bible, but then you turn around and declare that God created humans on the sixth day....What is your real question?

          1. cheaptrick profile image69
            cheaptrickposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I mean no disrespect.
            I just don't understand why Eating from the tree was a bad thing.
            It seems knowledge of good and evil would help Adam avoid evil.
            I am not denying the Bible,but I must be absolutely sure before I can in honesty commit to anything,especially something as important as this.

            1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
              LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              The Bottom line is that Jesus Christ, the creator of the universe loves you...If you were the only person on the earth, Jesus would have come and died to pay the price for your redemption....

              See, Adam and Eve had dominion over all of the earth, but they were the second creation.....Prior to their creation, we had angels and other creatures who worshipped God. Satan (whose name was Lucifer before he messd up), was in charge of bringing worship from the earth to God in Heaven.

              At that time the earth had other creatures, not man...(perhaps this is where the dinosaurs were), other types of beings were here...it doesn't matter what type of beings they were, but they had a praise for God....the book of Isaiah tells us that Satan got proud and lifted up and said that he would replace God and sit in his seat....that he would be like the  most high God, 

              Then there was war in Heaven and Satan got kicked out and the world was covered in water....this is Genesis 1:1-2, It says, "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth, but the earth was without  form and void.....The common understanding is that God cannot create something that is void and dark, so the question becomes, what happened between, "In the beginning God created".....and "..the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep"

              The supposition is that  between these two events, Satan was kicked out of Heaven and landed on the earth thrusting it into darkness and emptiness.

              In Genesis 1:3  we find God putting things back in order. It is during this time when God created man....The scriptures tell us that man was given the dominion that Satan had before he was kicked out of Heaven....He hates us because we gained from God what he lost....

              This the reason that he tempted Eve....the kind of tree was not the issue it  was the covenant that the devil was after....if  he could get man to sin or disobey then he would cause man to loose fellowship with God, to loose our position. Man's fall would effectively limit God's ability to freely operate in the earth. Man's breech of contract turned the earth back over to Satan...Adam gave his autority to the devil. 

              God wasn't mad at man, but the stipulations of the covenant caused man to become seperated from God....hence the need for a savior....who could qualify to be a savior? Well, all of mankind originated from Adam and Eve and they were messed up, so there there was no man who could recoup the loss.

              Jesus, stood up and said that He would make the sacrifice; and He did. he came in human flesh, was 100%man and 100% God. Because he was born without the benefit of human male sperm, he was born sinless...the only reason that He needed to be born and didn't just jump into the world is because God had to keep the terms ot he contract that He had written ....In order to be able to legally operate in the earth Jesus had to enter the world like every other human had to enter into the world...this made Him a legal sacrifice and able to operate in the earth according to the covenant.

              Jesus isn't a punk nor was He a sadist...He took the punishment that we should have taken so that we wouldn't have to take it....we couldn't have made it.....The punishment is separation from the Father God....all of the other stuff, the beatings, the mockery, the death and pain wasn't the punishment.....that stuff is what is out there because of the devil.....Jesus had to suffer it so that He could kill it's power over us....The real punishment is the seperation from God.....

              Jesus created a new contract or covenant  because he defeated death, hell and the grave and rose from the dead....He tells us that His gift is eternal life, not damnation, He tells us that we are already damned because of Adam's sin and He came, He had to come to set us free....not bind us up.....

              All that He requires is that we believe that He is the Son of God, that He came to earth to save mankind, that He voluntarily died to redeem us and that He rose from the dead.....If we believe this and ask Him to come into our heart...to be our personal Lord and Savior, we will be saved....

              It is a free gift and the most vile person on earth can receive it.....God has forgiven us of all sin, past, present and futur.  He did it through the shed blood of Jesue Chirst......it really is simple, but we try and make it hard....all you have to do is ask....Jesus loves you and is waiting for you to invite Him into your heart........

              I am glad that you asked me that question.....I pray that the love of God touch your heart  smile

            2. Valerie F profile image60
              Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Assuming the story is literal, eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an extremely dumb move. They already knew that obedience to God = good things keep happening to them, and breaking that one ridiculously easy rule set for them meant bad things would happen. Logically, they probably would have been able to figure out what good and evil were without eating any ill-gotten fruit.

              It wasn't the honest desire for knowledge that was sinful, but lust for power and a failure to trust in their Creator that was their undoing.

              1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                absolutely.... vanity and lust for power will get ya' everytime....

                1. cheaptrick profile image69
                  cheaptrickposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Thank you Ladies for giving me so much food for thought.
                  I will try to absorb and find the conviction of weather what you say feels true to me.
                  At the very least you have opened my mind.
                  Dean.

  19. Marliza Gunter profile image83
    Marliza Gunterposted 6 years ago

    ...wait until you see with your eyes..Jesus and God and Holy Spirit...the most powerful Spirits for a far stretch of millions and millions of ion light years...then it's too late...then all this empty jabbering will seem so foolish...only when it's too late...do most of them jabbers result to SILENCE....

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      LOL

      That's the spirit - ridicule anyone who does not believe in jeebus. Well done. big_smile

    2. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Wait until you stand in front of Allah and have to explain to him why you believed in lies. You'll know then the results of silence.

      1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
        LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        At least you believe that we all will stand before someone....

        1. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          How do you figure that? roll

          1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
            LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Because he just said so.....

  20. Cagsil profile image84
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    Eradicate Christianity? roll

    I could not care LESS for christianity or christ or christians for that fact.

    You are a human being made from human parents. Plain and simple truth. smile

    1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Naw...you care, because you hate it so much....venom just flows from you when you talk about it.......I tell you, "Cagsil, I challenge you to read the 4 gospels with an open mind...actually, you don't have to change anything about your feellings or thoughts...just read them through and tell us what happens when you get through......smile

      1. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Sorry, you're challenge is useless. Been there done that many years ago.

        Why don't YOU try living what you preach? Put the doctrines to work...and I mean, just the FIRST 3 Doctrines and see how far you get.

        Been there, done that. The realization you'll come to is that religion and everything that goes with it is FAKE or a HOAX if you like.

        So, believe when I say, it's all juse a ruse for control.

        Either way, you enjoy. smile

        1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
          LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Wow, someone else told me that they were disenchanted with their past experiences in the Word....It's not like I don't understand but the issues that I had were with the people and their crazy ways....not with the Word....

          I found that I needed to make a decision to believe what God said personally other than what man wanted me to believe....It took years before I could get free enough in my spirit to not be offended by folks......It ain't easy...but with the help of the living God, it is possible.......smile

          Oh, I do try and live my doctrine, but I don't always succeed.....I know that I am not perfect, but my Savior is.....

      2. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        LOL

        So - you keep asking why people are not interested in subscribing to you ridiculous belief system. And when they tell you - you tell them their reasons are invalid and try and get them to read your book.

        Open minded? LOLOLOLOL So very, very funny how little you "know yourself." lol

        1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
          LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Mark  my freind, how are you?

          I love you....

  21. Sara Tonyn profile image60
    Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago

    Any believers up for new questions?

    If so, why did God sacrifice his son?

    Briefly, it was to make up for the sins of the world and to show how much He loved people, right?

    1. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      It was his destiny , many masters have been tortured and killed , abuse is very common.
      Every human is the son or daughter of god and not only Jesus, he himself couldn't be more direct when he said "I tell ye you are all gods and the kingdom of god is within."
      This is also Hindu philosophy . god is within every human.

      All master do take on the karmic consequences of people but he didn't take up the sins for all of humanity, if he did we couldn't be seeing so much crime.

    2. twuxedo profile image60
      twuxedoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I don't uunderstand your type of religion.
      I don't get How killing someone saves people.
      I don't get How you say I know. Yet I don't ! Why is that?
      Are you that much smarter than me, I don't believe so.
      I think people of your kind are very arrogant, entitled to their opinions granted, but still very arrogant.
      Why not admit, you know, no more than any of us. To disagree just makes a liar out of you.

    3. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Sara,

      To answer your question as a Believer....God sacrificed his son to pay for the sin of the world and to bring us back to Him....and above all to demonstrate His love for humanity.

      1. Sara Tonyn profile image60
        Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Okay, that's pretty much what I thought.

        But I don't understand why God chose that particular method to show his love for us. Again, it's cruel! Why not just give us all a big hug and a new car to show his love? That would have done it for me. smile

        Besides, Jesus' death was not the worst or most painful death ever (not that it was fun) so how much of a sacrifice was it really?

        How about the people who were drawn and quartered or burned alive for their religious beliefs? Or slowly starved to death? Or beaten and abused daily for years and years?

        Plus, Jesus knew there was life after death so he had no fear. So really, how tough was it for him to suffer for a few hours? (That sounds bad but I don't know how else to phrase it.)

        And I sure don't understand how sacrificing his son "paid" for the sins of the world. God's "paying" himself with his son (who is God too) and that makes up for our sins?

        It kinda sounds like a bad movie plot...

        1. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

        2. Valerie F profile image60
          Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Sara, just to keep things short, but ever been crucified lately? Even if I knew I would come out of that all right in the end, I'm sorry. I'm still going to very strongly dread having the skin flogged off my back, the humiliation, the uphill trek carrying a crossbeam, the nails being driven through my wrists and ankles, and the three hours hanging naked and bleeding by those nails. Jesus Himself did no less.

          As for how death pays for sins- Christian teaching is that death is the ultimate consequence of sin.

          1. Sara Tonyn profile image60
            Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Then if our sins have been paid for why are we still dying?

            BTW, I acknowledged Jesus' death was no picnic. But mere mortals have suffered worse and what did they get out of it? Nothin' but dead.

            1. Valerie F profile image60
              Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Sara, nobody gets "nothin' but dead." Christianity teaches that depending on the choices we make in this life, we either go on to eternal happiness, or the spiritual death that results from permanent estrangement from God.

              1. Sara Tonyn profile image60
                Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You completely missed the point. 

                And if this was directed at me, say so straight up: "You don't know squat about my religion, so don't tell me what it teaches."

                Despite what you may think, I'm asking questions because world religions interest me. I question things that don't make sense to me; things that other people accept without bothering, or daring, to question.

              2. getitrite profile image81
                getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                @Valerie

                You have no proof of your assertion, yet you are giving it as an answer to this important question, asked by Sara.  Do you see what you are doing?   How can you say that "nobody gets nothin' but dead."  You are completely unqualified to assert that.  I think at the end of life, we ARE nothing but dead, and the evidence support that.  Where is yours?

                1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                  LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Hi Getitrite,

                  I know of a group of people who believe that when you die  "you are nothing but dead". but they only believe if for some of them . The also believe that a certain number of them will rise and be with God.....I would feel real insecure dealing with them 'cause i might not be is the special few......scarey.....

                  I want to be in the "going-up" group...smile

                  1. Cagsil profile image84
                    Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    And, you won't be. smile

            2. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
              LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Sara,

              Your point is understood....but Jesus was not a mere mortal.....He was 100% man and 100% God. This is what qualified Him to take our place...

              He was a man, but He was sinless, we are not. There two deaths, spiritual death and physical.....

              You can't do anything about physical death (burial insurance is good to have) but, Jesus made it possible to do something about spiritual death.  We are born into spiritual death and it takes a relatonship with Jesus Christ to give us spiritual life.......wink

              1. Cagsil profile image84
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I think you have your messages crossed. smile

                1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                  LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  What do you mean ?.....is my post in the wrong place....smile
                  Sometimes these things don't quite line up like I want them to

                  1. Cagsil profile image84
                    Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    We can discuss it here or on the other thread, your choice. I can handle both threads, should you decide to stay here.

                    I do have another conversation going on in the other thread, but that's not a problem. It would be probably better if you and I stayed here to discuss it, so the other thread doesn't move to fast, where the conversation could get lost. smile

              2. Cagsil profile image84
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Jesus was a human being and NOTHING more.

                Everyone is sinless. Sin is a religion term.

                Of course not, death is the end of life.

                No it doesn't. By the way, Jesus' last name wasn't Christ. smile

                1. Sara Tonyn profile image60
                  Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Hmm. Is it Tonyn? lol

                  1. Cagsil profile image84
                    Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Hmmm...? Was he related? lol lol lol

        3. aguasilver profile image88
          aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The reason that Christ had to be sacrificed is simple, Christ was sinless, 100% totally innocent of all sin, so death had no hold on Him.

          We on the other hand are full of sin, some more than others, but all sin is sin enough to warrant death, because death is the penalty and wages of sin.

          To understand more needs faith, which I see little of from non believers (obviously)because faith is trust in things not seen and yet to happen.

          Believers have faith, so they see the outworking of faith in their lives.

          Non Believers obviously cannot see the outworking of faith in their lives, though they can obviously see the outworking of sin in their lives.

          "In the garden there were two trees, that of good and evil, and the tree of life.

          We were warned not to eat from the tree of good and evil, we ignored that command and in doing so we were separated from the tree of life.

          God sent Christ to allow us a route back to Him and the tree of life.

          Why would you still eat from the tree of good and evil?

          Each tree has a root that will feed the fruit that the tree produces, and we are what we eat, so where we eat from is important and will be displayed in our lives.

          The tree of good and evil has a root in PRIDE and produces selfish acts, it declares "I AM LORD" and it's fruits are well known and evident everywhere we look:

          Selfishness,Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5 18:21)

          The tree of life has a root in humility and unselfishness, it declares 'JESUS IS LORD' and it's fruits are to be desired and worked for, they will feed you well:

          Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

          Who would wish to reject these and eat from the bitter tree of knowledge?"

          From a hub I wrote yesterday.

          1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
            LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Excellent response Aguasilver... cool

        4. getitrite profile image81
          getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Sara, you are correct.  It is a badly written fiction.  That's all the bible really is.  I think JK Rowling can write much better plots.

          1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
            LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            As you choose to believe so be it...... smile

          2. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
            LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Get a New Living Translation, it makes for easy reading....smile

            1. Cagsil profile image84
              Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Translation of what exactly?

              I certainly hope you're not translating Jesus' work. Because, there is a high probability you're wrong in it's translation, like about 90% of the rest of world. smile

              1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Translation of the Bible.......

                It is true that the further away from the original language the more challenging it is to maintain the integrity of the original message.....

                So, since I can't read Greek or Hebrew, I stand by the King James version....each of those words can be found in the lexicons which give us a pretty accurate understanding of the intent..

                But when someone has difficulty with the King James, the New Living can help.  Especially when it comes to some of the more technical accounts, ie, Chronicles which is a recout of the Israeli census. smile

                1. Cagsil profile image84
                  Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  But, I want your understanding to be correct, I don't want to go research it, I've done that for over 20+ years already and learned it's wrong. ALL of it. smile

        5. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
          LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hi Sara, I

          I want to respond point by point . You said, "But I don't understand why God chose that particular method to show his love for us. Again, it's cruel! Why not just give us all a big hug and a new car to show his love? That would have done it for me.   

          That’s kinda funny, but listen, the cruelty that He experienced was an expression of the cruelty and hate that exists outside of God’s presence.

          You said, "Besides, Jesus' death was not the worst or most painful death ever (not that it was fun) so how much of a sacrifice was it really?"

          Giving up your life for someone else is a sacrifice, no matter how you die. Would a more violent death prove any greater a sacrifice? I don't thik so and either way, I wouldn’t do it.

          You said, "How about the people who were drawn and quartered or burned alive for their religious beliefs? Or slowly starved to death? Or beaten and abused daily for years and years? "

          Again, dead is dead  and none of them rose from the dead....it is the combination of Jesus death and resurrection that saved us....the reality is that dying wasn't the hard part because all men die....it was the getting up on Sunday morning that sealed the deal.

          You said, "Plus, Jesus knew there was life after death so he had no fear. So really, how tough was it for him to suffer for a few hours? (That sounds bad but I don't know how else to phrase it.)

          But, that is the point. He could be the sacrifice becasue  of His faith. He knew He would rise from the dead.

          You said, "And I sure don't understand how sacrificing his son "paid" for the sins of the world. God's "paying" himself with his son (who is God too) and that makes up for our sins? "

          Yes. Jesus (God Himself) was the only sinless one – and the only one who could pay the price. Remember the sin that we are talking about is not smoking, murder theft and the like.  The sin is separation from God. That separation is equal to death because God is life. The place reserved for those separated from God is Hell…….but the kicker is that Hell was not made for mankind; Hell was created for the devil and his angels.

          When Adam sinned, he doomed all of mankind to eternal separation from God…hence Hell became our destiny….so, since that wasn’t the original plan of God, He had to have an alternative and that alternative was for Jesus (God Himself)  to take the place of man and go through the destiny of man.   

          Once Jesus took the full punishment that man was supposed to take, He (Jesus) could squarely say that the punishment or the price had been paid and now any person who receives me (Jesus) as having paid the price for them can escape Hell and be reunited with God….no more separation. 

          You said, "Is soundls like a reallly bad movie plot."

          That depends on what genre of film you like.....  smile
          If you haven't already seen it, you should see Mel Gibson's movie, "the Passion" - you can take a Bible and follow along with how it depicts Jesus' treatment.

  22. 0
    lyricsingrayposted 6 years ago

    requires hijacking immediately.  Commence topic change.

  23. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    You called? lol

    1. twuxedo profile image60
      twuxedoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Aliens have just landed in Brissie, one looks just like Spok!

      1. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Very jealous.. we have no aliens landing in Melbourne. Queensland gets all the good stuff! lol

        1. twuxedo profile image60
          twuxedoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Afirst for Brissie, and all these Believers don't believe in Aliens, so they are probably thinking, pretty much what I am thinking about them.
          Show me a Photo.

  24. skyfire profile image74
    skyfireposted 6 years ago

    Nope test doesn't have to be in lab. Just show the whole world that you experienced any angel or something, can you ? You can't as it can't get out of head to get approval of rest of the world, this requires delusion of similar person in order to get the agreement of that thought and this is where simple test fails let that lab test alone.

    1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Skyfire,

      If you ever encounter Jesus in a real way, you won't need any external proof.   smile  smile

      1. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think you even know. smile No to sound offensive, but it appears as if you don't know Jesus at all. From the sounds of it.

        It seems like your brainwashed by religion.

        Discuss it with me? We'll see how deep your understanding goes. smile

  25. Cagsil profile image84
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    Anyone with a religious view?

    Have an interesting read for you. smile

    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/34520

  26. Cagsil profile image84
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    What translation would you like to use first?

    You seem to be so bent on discussing the topic. Come on?

    Remember, religion was around long be Jesus was even in existence. That should get your mind running in circle.

    Also, remember, religion add Jesus' work to itself, after his execution.

    1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I love the King James, although I have several other translations.....

      A good way to study is to lay them all out and compare them.

      Oh, anyone interested can go to blueletterbible.com and access many versions and guides; commentaries, audio, and video. I love that site.big_smile

      1. Cagsil profile image84
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Good, now discuss with me, what exactly you think you know about Jesus' teachings?

        It's important you don't take away the wrong meaning of his words. smile

      2. Sara Tonyn profile image60
        Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for the link. It looks like a great site! big_smile

  27. Sara Tonyn profile image60
    Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago

    LeslieAdrienne --

    Thank you for taking the time to explain things point by point. big_smile

    I can't say I agree with you on everything but some things you said are definitely worth thinking about.

    Oh, and thanks for being so polite. It's appreciated. smile

    1. Cagsil profile image84
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Some of us, just are not that way. Truth is truth, blunt or soft, it usually hurts. smile

      1. Sara Tonyn profile image60
        Sara Tonynposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Oh, I'm used to you; you don't offend me at all. You're just a big softy when it comes right down to it! lol

        1. Cagsil profile image84
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, Sara Tonyn, I love you too. You're included in humanity. lol lol

    2. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Sara;

      You are welcome and thank you too....smile

 
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