For about 2,000 years, Jews have taken the rap for the crucifixion of Jesus. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment set aside for slaves, rebels and Jews. When Jerusalem was under Roman occupation, only the Roman government had the authority to put anyone to death. Pilate would have the last word on Jesus’ fate and according to Roman records (not the Bible), Pilate was nothing nice to the Jews. Pilate had a long history of controlling unruly Jewish gatherings by send in a Roman legion and have them all slaughtered. That was Pilate’s idea of crowd control, and by doing that got himself sent to the far end of the Empire to keep him out of the Emperor’s hair. So it was the Romans, now the Jews who executed Christ. The only thing the Romans get blamed for is poor driving skills!
The Jews were the ones shouting, "Crucify Him!" These are the same ones who were healed by Him.
aka said it right. No man could take His life. He couldn't die. Death had no power over Him at all. He gave His life as a ransom for all men.
The Jesus myth is one of fool-proof contradiction. A son of a god is a god, no matter how you look at it, and since he was the son of a god, he couldn't die.
Hence, his death was faked by him to fool everyone into believing he actually died.
Pretty good at faking a death. Hanging on a cross with a spear thrust into His side.
His death wasn't a Hollywood stunt as many may think. God can do anything. This just happened to be one of the most important things He did.
It doesn't matter what terrestrial pain and suffering you believed was caused, he was a god and could not die.
Then, by your own logic that "God can do anything" he can also fake his death.
You agree with me.
I do not agree with you but I do modify my statement. God can do anything but he cannot sin.
Of course, you don't agree. This wonderful little contradiction that YOU admit demonstrates the house of cards your faith is built.
Faking a death is not a sin.
I wonder if you have ever made a mistake in your life. Of course you don't have to answer because it might ruin your credibility. If you admit that you made a mistake, then you claim that you are not perfect. If you say that you have never made a mistake then you call yoruself a liar.
I made a mistake and corrected it. God didn't make the mistake.
Yes, we all make mistakes. I admit mine, and have done so here, in fact.
You can remain in denial your whole life as I'm sure you will, but the fact of the matter is that if a god exists, he cannot die. Period.
You and every Christian were duped by your own false logic.
And you can continue to twist and mangle everything that does not agree with your logic. You refuse to understand and that is fine with me. Why stand in the way of those who want to understand?
Because, it goes on to defy, all sane, rational and reasoning skills required to live life properly.
Who made you President of the "Stop Christianity club?"
I think that there is a call of God on your life because you sound like the Apostle Paul....He tried to eradicate Christianity and became one of the greatest Apostles of all time...........
No one is twisting anything, SirDent. Your own logic that god can do anything means he can also fake his death, a very simple act on his part.
You are in denial, that is a fact. And, since you cannot refute your own logic, you're forced to resort to deflection. Well done, once again.
Who were you duped by?....Whatever you believe was fed to you by someone....why do you believe what you were told?
The fact is that we will all be sure when we die.....
Everything you were fed was fed to you by someone else too? So, what's your point?
How are you? I think that I placed this comment in the wrong thread.... my response was to Q who said tht Christians were duped by false logic......
Anyway, the point is that faith is the foundation to every belief.....you have to believe the source of your information....so, we could all be duped ....
we deciide what we choose to believe and then we try and get others to accept our beliefs ....
One of the primary conditions of believing in myth and superstition is the capacity to accept that which follows those myths and superstitions without the capacity to think about it, to accept them uncritically and without question.
For example, when you make claim to the supernatural, you accept it without question as long as it suits your magical agenda.
However, when Newton claimed that force equals mass times acceleration, I can question it critically, I can do the math and run an experiment to verify the claim.
It is this process of understanding and verification that believers are unable to grasp and are under the delusion that everyone else simple believes what they are told.
You can test the supernatural claims also, but it needs faith, in either God or Satan, either will do, both have proved their existence to me and shown their ability to affect the physical realm.
But you don't have faith do you?
Just believe in what you can touch and taste.
Therefore you cannot test the supernatural. I suggest you look up the word "test" in a dictionary.
If it existed anywhere except in your head - you could show it to me without me having already decided to believe regardless.
The fact that you choose to go around anthropomorphizing your internal decision making process and pretend it is all some one else's fault is not really "testable," is it?
Not for you Mark, not for you, but to any believer who has received the Holy Spirit, the proof is in the eating (so to speak)
We see it daily!
So - it is not testable then. This is where the conflict comes from John. You say "it is testable" when what you really mean is "I believe in something that is not testable."
It would save a lot of fighting and arguments that you cause by saying this if you were just honest instead. Really. Less trouble and strife.
Oh - that is right - this is what Satan wants you to do - cause arguments and fights by spreading false doctrines and using semantics. 2,000 years of fights caused by your religion and still you do not get it - do you?
You should read your book. It is all in there.
Mark, we are being almost civilised, I like it!
If a believer experiences the Holy Spirit working in their life, or maybe in the life of someone they are praying for, then was that not a proven test?
I accept that for you a test is something conducted in a laboratory setting with full data tested against control groups, but I live in a simpler world, so when I see a supernatural event happen with my own eyes, I can accept it as it is.
Could it be reproduced, well yes, God can do whatever He wishes, but I doubt He would perform for a bunch of disbelieving scientists, why should He?
Right at the start sceptics asked Christ for a sign, and He replied:
"An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
His answer is still the same today, those who believe get confirmation, those who cannot believe cannot see it.
So why do you keep saying it is testable if it is not? I am well aware of the get-out clauses in the bible.
Still - I am really interested in this question - because I think it is at the root of the animosity between us. And I am using the generic "us".
You insist on using words like "test" "proof" evidence" etc - when what you really mean is, "faith."
Why can you not just say "I have faith."
Instead of causing an argument by saying "It is testable, but you cannot see the test because it is an invisible magic test that requires you to pretend it was a test instead of an actual test."
Why can't you just say you have faith instead of - well basically - lying.
It is not testable. You have to have faith. That is not the same thing.
Good point, and I agree, except about lying, but that's a debatable point in itself! Anyhow,not a deliberate lie, if there was one, it was due to our relative definitions of what 'test' constitutes.
We (generic 'we') can never satisfy each others requirements for proof so I will accept to call it faith, which is indeed what it is, and I see no lessening of it's validity (for me and other believers) by the fact that faith can never meet the requirements of secular tests.
See, that was simple wasn't it!
Well - you seem incapable of understanding that - your use of words that do not conform to the "secular" meaning when discussing things cause confusion and ill-feeling.
Why do you insist on purposely using words in this fashion when you know it will cause conflict?
When you say "I have proof" - you do not have proof - and you know full well non-believers are going to think to themselves - "Hmmmmm. He means faith, not proof. I wonder why he is lying to me? Does he really think I am that stupid?"
So - either you are:
1. Ignorant of the meaning of the words
2. Prepared to ignore them in favor of conflict and fights
3. Actively lying
4. Think that I am too stupid to know what these words actually mean
Clearly - you are aware than when you say "test" you know full well that I will not accept "blind faith" as a test and we are going to clash. And you know this before using the word.
So - why do it?
And as a matter if interest - exactly what word do you use to distinguish between things that are actually testable and your faith? Is there a special word for that?
I mean like - when you test the boiling point of water and measure it to be 100 degrees or something. What do you call that? Obviously you cannot use the word "test" as that applies to the blind faith you have. Or do you not bother distinguishing between the two?
"I have tested and found pink Unicorns in my garden and they speak to me. But you cannot see them unless you believe they are there."
Is the same as
"This child safety seat has been tested and found superior in protecting children in a car crash and here is the data for you to examine."
Would you trust your daughter's safety to a man who has talking pink unicorns in his garden that only he can see?
And I am genuinely interest in this question because I see this as one of the root causes of the current conflict between believers and non. All the time you guys insist on using words in ways that do not conform to accepted meanings - we are going to mis-communicate and therefore have conflict.
And this is the generic "you" so any other believers feel free to help me understand here.
I suspect you're probably lying about that to support your faith. Either that, or you've got mental health problems.
You have posed an interesting argument. Perhaps Christians could reply to it in their way. But, as a Hindu, I have attempted to reply to your arguments from Hinduism point of view.
Please see my latest Hub, "If Jesus is truly the son of God, how can he die?"
Actually C.V.Rajan, it might be best if you kept those two separate- Jesus was a Human being - GOD doesn't exist and is part of religion, for which, Jesus wasn't preaching or teaching religion.
Please try to keep your eye on the ball and the difference.
People in glass houses should not throw stones.
Perhaps you have lost sight of the ball.
You admit that Jesus did exist and was a very notable teacher
You even preach concerning what you say that he taught.
You are correct that Jesus did not teach religion.
Jesus did teach about the existence and sovereignty of God.
You can not separate the two.
Are you in the habit of making useless statements. I've not lost sight of the ball. So, get your facts straight BEFORE you open your mouth.
Are you dense or something? I don't preach. Preaching is for those of religious views, for which, I have none, because Jesus was not a religious teacher? So, again, before you open your mouth, understand what you're saying.
Really, are you sure about that? You cannot even read the text without getting confused. You talk like you have knowledge of this area, but you have nothing, because your unique individual interpretation is obviously out of whack. And, had you read my other thread or even the OTHER thread - about the Flood and the Ark? Then you would know already that, what I am talking about.
The only reason Jesus even used the word "GOD" was only a code, so he could show the Romans that he was teaching "religion's" type of message. It was easier for him to do his work.
Jesus wasn't preaching "GOD", GOD is part of religion, which he despised. Please get your thought about the subject straight.
Jesus coded his work, so as to not be detected by the Roman religious establishment. He knew that the "GOD" of religion was fake.
He claims in his own words, yet you cannot seem to differentiate anything of his work and religious text. Again, had you the understanding- religion existed before Jesus, then you would come to the same conclusion that he wasn't in support of religion, but completely against it, because he knew the people/religious leaders of his time, were corruptd and worshipping a false "GOD".
Plain and simple. I'm getting tired of repeating myself to you. Because you simply refuse to listen/read my words to gain the clarity you require by dismiss.
I try to be nice and polite as much as I can...BUT...
You seem to be guilty of everything that you are accusing others of being.
Are you in the habit of making useless statements.
Are you dense or something? I don't preach.
You cannot even read the text without getting confused.
You talk like you have knowledge of this area, but you have nothing,
(Jerami says .. And last but not least...)
(You said}... you simply refuse to listen/read my words
(jerami says) ...With all due respect ...
I'd have to say "right back atcha"
And - This is why a belief in an invisible super being called GOD will ALWAYS cause wars and conflicts. No room for compromise.
Jews, my friend Look after only Jews. Gentiles they treat badly. I have had enough of the way Jews are treated.
Let them look at their History. I mean Palestine isn't theirs. Doesn't stop them wanting it.
The nat'l guard that killed the student at Kent State were actually Hitler's storm troopers...ahhh...under jewish influence.
hmm, this seems to be informative, but I lack background information on the topic, can you make a hub on this topic, short and precise but with little background info, thanks.
I think you missed the point anyway!
Jesus Himself said that no man takes His life from Him. He followed on, by stating that He had the power (and authority) to "lay it down, and rise again".
That was His entire mission, to deal with the SIN problem.
The Romans (and Jews) were just the means/vehicle, by which death was "administered".
We can blame whoever we want, but the reality is, that each ONE OF US is guilty (or responsible) for His death. It was our SIN that neccessitated His appearing in the first place.
How am I guilty of Christ's death? Seriously. I've never understood the guilt-by-association type logic.
This not the place to explain it.
I, (and many others) have a Hub to do that.
Try searching "SIN" in Hubsearch, and read some of the Hubs that come up.
You are not.
This is the nonsensical "I have a personal relationship with god, but I get my instructions out of a badly mis-translated 2000-year-old book that I do not and can not understand, so please believe what I believe," argument that causes all the wars.
They do not understand this though.
Because they speak for GOD.
It is not that you are guilty of Christ's death because your uncle Fred took part in the crucifixtion.
The idea is that because Jesus took on the sin of the whole world and died to destroy the power of that sin over mankind we(all of mankind) are responsible for His having to come and die....does that explain it ny better?
His death was a love choice.....trust me, God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are not mad at you or anybody else....
The idea of dying to destroy the power of sin sounds great but wasn't it God who created sin? So why the need to manifest in human form to get rid of its power? Why wouldn't God just say, "Sin, you're outta here!" and *poof* no more sin?
And one other thing... Sin is still around, alive and well, so does that mean God couldn't destroy its power?
Well Stated and true, another one of those we didn't think this out very well, good thing we created the catch 22 of 'Thou shall not question the Church'...(those Roman Senators were nothing if not smart)
There were pretty good with lion acts, too.
I mean, unless you were a Christian.
Totally understand why they were fed to the lions.
and in response to your earlier statement of: "Oo Oo, I have done that and discoverd that it is all a fairy tale and does not make any sense."
God is a Paradox... that is why the God concept doesn't make sense. By it's nature, it's very definition, it is confusing. Which makes your statement true, The God concept doesn't make sense, and yet... it does.
Yeah, I don't get the guilt part either, since I was born a few years after he died.
Yeah, well, try telling that to an infinite being.
Try proving an infinite being exists? Before you go claiming one does or did exist.
Just a thought.
No one can prove that an infinite being exists except for that being Himself. He did that even before Jesus hung on the cross.
I recall seeing children putting their finger sin their ears to keep from hearing something a parent was telling them. They knew they were in trouble and did soemthing wrong. This is what I am reminded of in these threads.
Anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus don;t want to hear the truth. They simply want to do their own thing and they don't care what they say or who they say it to. They stand in the way of those who want to know Jesus.
Did you live at the time? How do you know? The Bible isn't a reputable source of information. And, you use it like it is a true story. You have be mystified by the one thing Jesus told you to stay away from.
I mean, come on, be serious. Why do YOU believe?
Nice comparison, but my mother is sitting in the other room and my father has already died.
So, please don't use a profoundness about parents, then compare them to your false "GOD", because one is real the other isn't.
You wouldn't know truth, if it bit you in the leg. There is NO truth in the words of the bible or religion.
There is a good reason for this.....it is called - CONSCIOUSNESS!
You might consider using your to understand your life. Life, has more meaning than you give it, because you claim a "GOD" created life on Earth, which is false and cannot be proven, by anyone, much less yourself.
Who says the Bible isn't a reputable source? Everyone talks about proof and evidence. I have seen it stated many times since I came here yet not one has shown any proof that is beyiond a doubt.
If everyone was so sure of themselves and what they believe or don't believe, they would have no problem showing the evidence.
Either way, you still refuse the truth.
Again, I say prove it.
CONSCIOUSNESS is a new age term. It is used in stating that one will rise up to the same spiritual vibration as Jesus and actually becaome the Christ.
You still have not shown the evidence.
Look outside your deceptive words of religion and you might actually find yourself, nevermind "GOD" of all things.
You call me deceptive when you have failed to even attempt to answer one of my questions to you. I used to walk the same path that you do. No good will come of it I assure you.
Again, you are not using your brain. There is NO PROOF of any "GOD" ever existed.
The BIBLE you use to refute other people's claims of understanding life is meaningless and nothing more than an ethics book, history book and mythology book.
Please do try and remember the KEY element to life- if you have to use your brain to imagine something, then it isn't real.
And, should you WANT to bring something that imagined into reality, then YOU must prove it existed beyond a shadow of doubt.
Which you cannot do.
I don't have to prove to you that "GOD" doesn't exist. Humankind has already determined that your imagination has absolutely nothing to do with reality in and of itself.
I'm sorry you cannot accept that, but it's the FACTUAL truth of life. You simply dismiss it, because of your supposed faith in whatever.
The PROOF is on YOU! Not non-believers. The Non-believers already know what's real. It is you who refuse to look at the facts of life.
Why do we need to prove it to non believers? There is no point in doing so. The biggest problem is non believers keep coming to the religion and christian forums and spreading their crap and causing dissension.
Who are the agressors? We can't even have one thread with only believers on it. Why is that? Isd real life so boring that you need to write something to make life more exciting for you?
Prove to me that with your own brain you can figure everything out. I also know thatg a popular syaing is that you cannot prove a negative. 3 - 5= -2. I just proved a negative.
Spreading their crap and causing dissension? So - what about the 1800 years of wars? LOL
There are lots of threads with just believers fighting with each other. Just remember - jesus was just another prophet - it is you guys screwed up his message.
None - in my present incarnation. Does that mean they did not happen? Or that it was all the fault of atheists?
So then you are attempting to start another war?
Do your tarot cards tell you which lives were yours before?
No pet - Tarot cards allow you to look inside and see yourself and all aspects of yourself.
As does your book............. if you understood it.
The book too huh? Because it says the same things...... Exactly the same.
When I read tarot cards they were certainly never giving me the same 'readings' as I receive from study of the bible.
Incidental, when I threw them onto a bonfire to destroy them, they exploded.
Then I understood where the power had come from.
Yes, tarot cards do contain a lot of power in them. However, I prefer to use their explosive power to destroy illusions and misconceptions rather let out it within a fire.
Notice that SirDent always, and I mean ALWAYS deflects away from the discussion that he is unable to support.
The reality of this is that no one can prove anything either way.
Science I guess will eventually break-through with the correct answer, then and only then can a theory of a Diety be proven or not.
We have learned so much, DNA was a remarkable breakthrough, in mapping the Blue Print for Life, that being said we still have much research to do, before we find out exactly what the answer is.
While I can understand the Atheists and Agnostics, inability to accept any theory until given Proof.
I kind of wonder about the Religious beings that say they have Proof, when they really do not.
The writings were by human beings and we all know how wrong people can get things.
So personally I do believe there was such a Man a Jesus, there is proof of his existence, but photographs did not exist, and the stories are accounts by mere Mortals.
None of these people on here have the Proof to convince either side, hence the towing and throwing that goes on in these religious Panels.
Everything stated above is true. Both groups were responsible. The Jewish heirarchy at the time were idol worshippers - primarily that of power. They did not seek inspiration but they did make a habit of seeking signs in various combinations of numbers as many do today.
Now, being a God Himself He needed to be the one to atone for the ills of the Earth including sin. Why Him? Because He was the chosen one over Lucifer in the existence prior to Earth. Without Him and the sacrifice mankind would have no potential to obtain the presence of the Father again and to continue into progression which is the mission and the glory of the Father and the Son.
How do we share responsibility? For the many of us who have taken upon ourselves the covenant to follow Him we are sharers of the graves He took upon Himself. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ we are "purchased" by the Savior. That is the price we also pay for the mere opportunity of the Father's presence once again. Especially for us in the covenant with Him we further put Him to shame upon our own cross when we opt into sinful paths.
In fact, He has said that if we will not repent we shall suffer even as He has. That too is part of the price we pay for being purchased. It is a wonderful service He put into action for us because He loves us. However, that also puts us at an immense responsibility to maintain our personal integrity and virtue to follow Him.
It was a price that had to be paid - and He paid it, but the gift is definitely not free.
And you cannot see how ridiculous the idea of a "gift" that you must pay for is?
Here is a new iPhone - You owe me $400..........
For personal salvation and eternal progression - yes, it's completely fair.
The 'gift' is eternal, the 'cost'is temporal and is actually only surrendering that which you think you own, in effect we give back what we thought to possess that was not ours to claim.
I had a pastor once who was baptising folk on the beach (which we still do today) and as he stood there watching the fun an old woman asked what they were doing, he explained that the folk were being baptised, she asked 'What does it cost' and he replied 'Everything you've got'.
'I though so? she said, and drifted off.
He was joking, she was confirming what she thought she knew.
Everyone is speaking of matters that cannot be understood by those who have never experienced them.
I might not be the popular one in these forums, but I like to think of us all as belonging to tribes... that our beginnings have bonds beyond the roman invasions.
I think that is important to understand and will help build bridges beyond religion. As war and religion seem to have seperated and been used to subvert and conquer. Seeing our earlier beliefs and understanding where we came from might put our religious differences aside alittle, help us understand our common histories and let the church return to its role as a place for spiritual being.
Sounds like a plan...but, the history of mankind begins with religion...so, there is no place to go to where we will not have differences in our serious beliefs....you might as well stop trying to remove religion or faith from the day to day realities of human existance....it just can't be done...might as well pick a side...
Choose ye this day life or death, blessings or curses..(if I had to choose, I would choose life)
I thought everyone knew that Jesus was an alien from outer space, and that he came here in a spacecraft - the 'star' followed by the three wise men.
Christianity is based on ET acivity.
He death was meaningless, devoid of any compassionate reason.
He was executed, for his defiance of religious/spiritual leaders of his time.
Him dying, had absolutely nothing to do with sin of the world of humanity. It had to do with greed of the Roman Leaders.
Again, if a "GOD" comes to Earth, YOU and EVERYONE else wouldn't know the difference, because you would listen to someone claiming to be "GOD" without proof.
He would tell you his living is proof enough, and you would tell him he is wrong and that you worship the only true "GOD" and his name is Jesus Christ.
And, at that point, I am of the understanding, your life would end shortly there after.
Just a thought?
WoW! You sound like a person who is true to his convictions and requires logical proof before you make a choice to believe anything....Now, don't get mad at me...I just want to know a few things, if that is alright with you...if not, that's O.K. too..
Why are you so adamant that it isn' like the Bible says it is? Why can't it be true? Are you afraid that if it is true that you would have to change?
Well, since you like to ask questions, I'll indulge you.
Why are you so admant that it isn't like the Bible says it is? Answer: Because SCIENCE has already deemed religion fake, some 40 years ago.
Why can't it be true? Because science has already figured out how the Earth came to be and how life came from the Evolution of Earth.
Are you afraid that if it is true that you would have to change? I fear nothing, including death. Change is what I already did, from being a believer....to a non-believer....to a complete rejectionist of all mystical faith based religions.
Get mad at you? For what, asking questions for which I already have answers for. Now, that wouldn't make any sense. Would it?
Does that satisfy your curious nature? Or do you have more questions?
Now, you already know that as long as I can read and write, I'll have a question or two...but, putting all banter aside, I do want to ask you a serious question, and that is, "What happened to you?". You wrote,
" Change is what I already did, from being a
believer....to a non-believer....to a complete
rejectionist of all mystical faith based religions.
My heart goes out when I read or hear about situations that have happened in peoples lives that have resulted in their turning from God... I will not try to convert you, I just want to know what the circumstances were.....please
Yeah - open your heart to this total stranger who has completely dismissed your lack of belief as "turning from god," and therefore wrong.
Gotta love the fake sympathy as well. Her "heart goes out" when she hears someone has made a rational decision not to believe in the nonsensical fairy tale she subscribes to. She pities you even.
What on earth happened to you that you need to pretend there is a magical life after death with jesus rather than accept the realities of life?
It must have been something pretty horrible to make you believe such utter nonsense.
You can share - you are among friends.
You are funnier than he is.... At least get your facts right before you bring our blade....I never said he was wrong, and,since the question was not posed to you, I wouldn't expect you to recognize or know the factual difference between compassion, sympathy, empathy or pity....so, let's not go there....
To oblige you and answer your question, as to what happened to me.... As you suggest, it was truly horrific, absolutely aweful........I found out that in all of my experiences,vast education, extensive travel, popularity and financial success somethng was missing from my life.
And, instead of getting angry and try to disprove, fight against and wonder about God, I was brave enough to simply ask in sincerity that He prove Himself to me.....
Ya gotta love it
So sorry you need to invent an invisible friend to fill the gap in your life. I pity you.
I wonder if you realize how condescending you come across as to others? I suspect not. People who need to fill the void in their life with imaginary invisible super beings tend to do that. At least you are not threatening me with burning at the stake unless I jump on your bandwagon, so things have moved forward a little. But the next time you are condescending and dismissive of others who do not share your irrational beliefs - I will ridicule you - just like it says in the bibel.
Clever dudes wrote that book.
"Go around being a condescending a-hole, ridiculing people who do not share your beliefs - and they will make fun of you. Don't worry about them - they are satan's minions and will get what is coming to them."
To invent and worship an "imaginary friend" is actually prohibited by Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
But otherwise, it's better to have the gap in your life filled with something imaginary that's better than anything the so-called "real world" has to offer.
(BTW, I believe a "real world" without God is imaginary.)
No - just imaginary friends that are not the same as their imaginary friend.
"No imaginary friends before me," or something.
You still haven't explained how the gap in my life is filled with something better than what your so-called "real world" can offer, and the gap in your life seems so full of bitterness and vileness.
Bitterness and vileness?
What is wrong with trying to stop abuse? Which is what your religion teaches and practices. Do not see how that is vile?
You know, you just might be right...When you are adamant about an issue, and believe that you are absolutely right, you just might sound condescending....(we could get real technical about the tone of these posts, but that isn't necessary)
But, let me assure, If my posts sound condscending I apologize because that is he last thing I want to do.....l truly an interested in why people truly reject Jesus, that is all....
Now, don't get confused, I am as polarized about what I say as you are about what you say. I am fully convinced and persuaded that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that He carried the sin of the world because He loves every person, that He forgives us before we mess up, that He paid the price for my inherited transgression, that His shed blood created a covenant between anyone who receives Him as there personal Lord and Savior and God almighty, that there is no sin or offense, (no matter how vile), that He doesn't forgive and forget, and finally, invisible or not He sho' is real!!! I'm telling you, you need to have the experience for yourself.....you will never be the same..... (Just like it says in the Bible
In sincerity, I don't mean to sound "better" than anyone, so, when I sound like that, if you keep reading my posts, please let me know....I'll listen
Oh and about your "threat" to ridicule me.... Oooooo, If I cared, I would be scared........but, I dont', so I'm not ......(now that is just a bit of ridicule for you) In fact I'll see your threat and raise you two.
See - the "love ya" is the real reason why I originally rejected your ridiculous religion.
You ridicule me and tell me you love me. You also apologize for being condescending and go on to do it again.
Clearly you do not actually love me. I suspect it is this hypocrisy that persuades many people not to believe the same rubbish that you do.
Obviously - you do not actually believe it - nor do you follow the teachings of the person you claim to be emulating.
Ergo - it is wrong. Simple really. I was not threatening you - just telling you what your bibel tells you. Behave in this fashion and you will be ridiculed. And I will be one of the one's pointing the finger. What is "threatening" about that?
So - I guess the simple answer to why people choose not to believe the garbage you believe - is you. And that is the generic "you" which includes the billions of believers who do not follow the teachings - and just preach them.
I am not interested in your love thanks. It is too painful and I have experienced it from other people who claim to have a personal relationship with jesus and demonstrate the fact that they do not. If you genuinely loved me - you would never phrase a question in such absolute terms as to completely dismiss my opinion. That is the problem with your belief system. No room for compromise or tolerance, My way or the high way. There is no possibility that your belief system is wrong - merely that some people choose to "reject" it for selfish reasons and are therefore agents of the devil who will pay a terrible price when the time comes. Come Soon Lord Jesus!
Pretty obnoxious if you think about it rationally - and this is where all the animosity comes from.
This Hurts like Hell to say but,
DAMN that was good!
I had to keep picking at you because I needed to hear how you had been hurt....I knew that if I kept pushing you, sooner or later you would say why you are so very angry about Christianity......that is all that I wanted to know....I do love you because Jesus loves you and I like you because you speak your mind....I hate that you have been hurt, believe or not...right now you and how you feel is more important than anything else ....
Chirstians have lied to you and dissappointed you and I wish that it could have been different, but it isn't.......
You are entitled to you opinons as am I,.....You'll hear no more sarcasm from me and certainly no more ridicule.....
The Lord Jesus loves and does not condemn you (John 3:16-19)
I apologize for those who have misrepresented His love to you.....
You have no need to fake apologize for anyone else. You should be apologizing for your own behavior.
You yourself have demonstrated exactly the same traits - and are doing so right now.
Thank you for reminding me why I do not subscribe.
You do not actually believe - and if you actually loved me - you would not accuse me of being angry when I answered a straight question with a straight answer.
Why do you hate me so much you choose to belittle me in this fashion?
I am against Christianity because it is a lie. The adherents do not understand it and have changed it to suit political and monetary needs.
I suggest you read your book again with an "open mind" but this time - actually open your mind.
Jesus is a myth. Simple really. Are you satisfied?
Then, as a son of a GOD, he couldn't die. You've been duped by a charlatan.
Unicorns and leprechauns are invisible, too.
You do and you won't.
You don't make any sense.....
So because he obviously wasn't human, he was a God and not an ailen?
He had to have been a pretty amazing man to have done the things he did, and to still be talked about 2000 years later.
He was not a God, imo, nor the son of God.
Amazing, none the less.
Would it be too difficult for you to accept, what was claimed to be seen, wasn't real accounts of his actions, but only images others had imagined to be so, so they wrote about them, instead of what happened?
That's okay, it was a shock to me too, when I studied religion, to only find out much of what during his time is misconstrued throughout all of religion, only because his followers would not follow religion.
Jesus' works was not added to religion or any part of any form of religion. He work was coded in the primitive language of his time, so he wouldn't be detected by the Romans. Thus, he would be able to practice his teachings and not be found out.
His execution came about, because he despised the religious leaders of his time, and they couldn't afford to let him continue teaching. Therefore, he was killed, as an example for those who go against religion.
Just a thought.
You know, I like you...you have studied the secular, historical and political aspects of the life and times of Christ...the only issue is that you are drawing from the information that others have written about Christ....what about what He says about Himself? Knowing that you are a seeker of truth, I challenge you to read the 4 Gospel writers accounts of the life of Christ....Read them with an open mind....you see, each one was written with an emphasis on a specfic group of people...Matthew was writen for the Jews, Mark was written for the Romans, Luke was written for the Gentiles and John is written for the person who doesn't believe....
You don't have to tell us what you discover...just do it for yourself
Oo Oo, I have done that and discoverd that it is all a fairy tale and does not make any sense.
I have also discovered that when believers use the term "open minded" what they really mean is "suspend disbelief."
What can we say about your "discoveries"......hmmmm.... Oh, I know....where is any proof outsde of yourself?
(And don't say Science.....because Science proves the facts of the Bible--did you know that?)
That Science proves the facts of the Bible....give me a week, I'll get you the secular references.....or maybe I'll write a hub about it....Either way I'll have post some info in about a week.....
Actually, if he did the things he did and said the things he said, but was not God the Son incarnate, that would make him a pretty amazing liar or a nutcase.
It seems that many will make every excuse possible to not believe. Some say Jesus was an alien. Some say He was just a man who was killed for His own actions. Others say he never existed. Many things have been said about this one person.
Debates have gone on for ages about Him. Even just that one fact in itself shows that there is something more to Him than the mind of man can even imagine.
The Bible was written by many different people during different times. It was wirtten by Kings, Shepherds, Fisherman etc. . . It cannot be understood by those who do not even believe God is real.
Now I ask those of you who do not believe. What is the real reason you do not believe?
How can your research be trusted? Did you interview Jesus? Did you ascend to heaven and interview God Himself?
My opinion is that you used the writings of a man named Gerald Massey for much of your research. Of course, that is only my opinion.
Pfft. Research is only as good as its sources.
Back to topic. Here's the Christian take on who is responsible for Christ's crucifixion. Note that the Bible never said that the "crowd" which clamored for crucifixion was made up entirely of Jews. It also says that Christ died for the sins of everyone in the world, past, present, and future. So it is un-Christian to assign blame to anyone other than one's own self.
What utter nonsense.
The reason it is talked about is the incessant bleating of people such as yourself. Fortunately - we no longer have to put up with your nonsense.
You have no proof - none. So - more to the point - Why do you believe when there is absolutely zero evidence. None.
Not only that - but it doesn't even make sense unless you already decide to believe even though it makes no sense.
For myself - I do not believe because -
1. It makes no sense
2. There is absolutely no evidence for and lots of evidence against
3. People like you
You do not understand. I have never seen one ounce of understanding from you. A blind belief in the un-understandable that you cannot even explain and are forced to say "if you believed you would understand," LOLOL - sure. Great.
What I believe is worse that you believing in a deck of cards?
I don't "believe," in a deck of cards. LOLOLO
Tarot cards - like any tool such as the bible - allow a look within. LOL Only religionists such as yourself think it applies outside of you.
But - well done - nice distraction. Jesus was god after all then. LOLOLOLOLOLO
I see more threads started here by non believers than I do believers. So the incessant bleating comes mostly from those. It is true you don't have to read or reply but yet you do for some unknown reason.
You say there is no proof, but there is lots of proof. You like to turn a blind eye to it but it is there.
Does everything have to make sense in order to be real?
It is undertsandable, but only if you are willing to understand. I go back to the child with fingers in it's ears.
Please do not call me a child and you are the parent with the answer. LOLOLOLO
And LOL - no proof. Sorry "Oh - a tree - proof!" does not cut it.
And yes - there are non believers who see your religion as evil and disgusting and want to put a stop to it.
You could shut us up as little as 100 years ago. No more Dent.
I will not shut up - sorry - just because I despise it and want it stopped does not mean I believe. And your message is pure hatred. Calling it "love" will not change that.
I am glad to see you admit to starting threads just to cause trouble between believers ans atheists.
No Dent. I admit to no such thing. But - I see you are a genuine christian after all. The trouble starts the moment you start telling me you have an answer and I am being childish by ignoring the truth you have - when you then behave like this. (see above) Lololololol
I don't recall saying that I have the answers. You admitted to starting threads just to cause trouble. Your quote: I will not shut up - sorry - just because I despise it and want it stopped does not mean I believe. And your message is pure hatred. Calling it "love" will not change that.
How does "I will not shut up - sorry - just because I despise it and want it stopped does not mean I believe." mean I "admitted to starting threads just to cause trouble"? LOLOLOLOLO
Oh yes - you are using "scripture to interpret scripture." to make it mean what you want. Just like you do with the good bok. How very christian of you.
Nice way of twisting things around. You are very good at it. You mentors must be proud.
Silly me, I forgot you are your own man. You have no mentors.
Knowles....you sound a little confused on that last post....maybe you should pray...
the real reason I don't believe is that I can't believe in anything that's not Real to me.
I can't see God. I don't believe.
I see myself. I believe.
My believe is ME.
And no. I don't believe some kind of God, made me.
I don't see any reason to believe Life has been created by a God.
At least you did give me an answer. That shows integrity in my book.
Love ya Pigfish....simple and to the point
Actually, if you look close enough, you can see the wind.
Jesus Christ was a New Concept in the evolution of human Awareness.Weather he existed as a person is not the point.
The evolutionary step forward(which was left with the Gnostic's)had to do with the components and integration of the human Psyche(Soul translates into Psyche in ancient Greek)from which "Believing"will actually manifest materially.
"It was the simplicity of what he taught that made them stumble".
Again and again the lesson was just BELIEVE and it would happen.
"IT" was left up to the individual!
The root word of "Holy" is Whole witch requires all components of experience.
Who did God say was a man after his own heart?
DAVID and that boy screwed up more than any one!
But he was great at NOT making the same mistake again(Repentance).
If you really want to understand the lessons advanced through the concept or symbol called Christ you should study the representative language used at the time.
Sorry I rambled on...
You know, the thread was started to address anti-Semitic misreadings of Scripture- NOT whether or not God exists, and not as a forum for Mark Knowles to once again spout off his own brand of hatred.
No - just pointing out why your ridiculous religion causes so much hatred. Starting with the anti semitism caused by the jews demanding the death of jesus.
Oh - that's right - you do not understand why your book was written.
You must be a christian..........
Again, the Bible never said it was just Jews demanding the death of Jesus, but holds us all accountable. Anything else is a misinterpretation.
And you're one to complain about spreading hatred, since you excel at doing just that yourself. Hypocrite.
No - I am honest about hating your religion. You are the one pretending it is "love."
Feel free to look up the meaning of the word "hypocrite".........
So then you are on a crusade to destroy Christianity? You do not have the power to do it.
Hatred of any religion is just as bad as hating a race, a gender, even a sexual orientation.
If you decry everyone else's hatred and prejudice, but think your hatred is perfectly fine, you are a hypocrite.
Nonsense, there is huge distinction between ideologies and people, or didn't you know that?
You just don't get it, do you? You're ideology is filled with hatred and prejudice, amongst other vile and despicable ideals. The rest of us are simply fed up with it being shoved down our throats and how its destroying mankind.
Q...if you are that "fed up" why are you in this forum and why are swallowing enough of our ideology to choke a horse ....and, then you get mad at us because you ate it?
The one thing that un-believers don't understand is that they can NEVER deter a believer.....NEVER.......that's why most of us who are confident in what we believe can continue in conversation with you.....we really love you and will answer any question that you ask.....
Now, if you answer this post, please don't call me any ugly names
According to Christianity, the Church is the people. You hate the Church, you hate a group of people.
Wow - you really are desperate to be like jesus.
No. I just don't fall for any mealymouth, hollow platitudes like "I don't hate the people- I just hate their beliefs (or fill in the blank with whatever makes these people different from you)."
I thought you had more sense than that, obviously not. Ideologies are not people, no matter how much you believe it.
So what are you saying Q...that you hate christian ideas or the christians/people?
Ideologies are a defining factor for some people. They are what make Christians Christian and what make atheists atheist.
Kowles, why are you calling folks names? You must be infuriated.....All people want is for you to be able to open your heart to the possibility that God's Word is true.....what if....????
You should really do your homework b4 u try to disclaim God.... The Bible is historically accurate and many scientists actually have proven most of it true already. Many of these scientists were not Christian b4 they found out what they know now. If you really believe that this world just came together through the big bang or that you grew from slime on a rock or evolved from a monkey... i love that i get to be the one to tell you that it takes more FAITH to believe that. By the way where can I send you flowers on your most sacred day?? I really would love to send you flowers. Of course you know that your day is April FOOLS day. And another thing I dont have to posts dumb posts to try and PROVE God exists... I already know He does. But you are so nervous about being proven WRONG that you felt compelled to write your comment. Its funny how the devil gets so argumentative when believers in Jesus are in the midst. Well never the less I will pray for you that God shows you that he is real. I hope you dont burst into flames as I commit the rest of my day holding you up in prayer to the one and ONLY TRUE LIVING GOD ALMIGHTY MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH. PRAISE BE TO GOD MY ROCK AND MY SALVATION AND YOUR CREATOR. btw I heard today that someone told a friend of mine that they believed in God but that He doesn't do miracles anymore. For you and that person... things dont happen because you wouldn't believe it anyway if it did. God bless you.
Are we in danger of bursting in flames ??
So what are you doing here ?
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
When FEAR cometh?
What am I suppose to fear?
Imaginary things cannot hurt real things, unless real things give in to the imaginary items/images.
Nice try tho.
I'm late to the party so forgive me if this has already been discussed 1000 times.
When you non-believers ask for proof, are you insisting that it is tangible?
If so, do you believe thoughts exist? Where is the tangible proof?
Again, if this has been asked and answered before, please just gently slap me up side the head and I'll stop.
Unfortunately, everything you just said, isn't proven to any extent, to justify belief in an imaginary being.
As for the beginning of the world? That doesn't start with religion, and never has.
Poor atheists, just rebels without a cause. We still love you.
Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
I'm curious here.I keep reading Sin is the problem but wonder what it is defined as.Does sin change in context with the period in which the writer lives?Are sins the same from society to society?What effect do sins have and upon what?
The Christian Gnostic's of the first century believed the Spirit was sent to earth to nurture a seed entrusted to them by God,they called the seed there souls.They considered anything that distracted them from maturing the seed a sin.The Gnostic's taught that sin was unavoidable in the physical world because it was necessary for the maintenance of the body,IE,thinking about eating,shelter,social order,etc.All were considered as being detractors from the task of the spirit which should be focused on growing the soul.So what is sin in today's world?
Sin by definition is 'missing the target' and is used in archery, in a biblical sense it is similar to the Gnostic concept, in that sin is anything that separates you from God, but obviously there are specific 'sins' that you would find in the bible.
When someone says they do not sin, they are lying, which is a sin in itself.
All have sinned. Period, punto!
If we sin enough, we get a hardened and 'seared' consciousness and fail to recognise sin as sin.
Just wanted to add that everyone was born into sin, some call it the original sin. Adam and Eve are the parents of all of mankind (color, race, etc...doesn't matter), their disobedience to the command of God thrust them and every person ever to be born into the world into a "state of sin"....Sin is passed on almost like a birth mark....It is from this sin that all other sin or resultant sin proceeds.....So, the issue is not the resultant sin, it is the primary sin. If we can clean up the primary sin from the individuals heart,than the individual will have the strength to deal with and resist the secondary sin......Jesus Christ, the only sinless man has eradicated the primary sin. The world is changed one person at a time.
Believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died for you ad that He was raised from the dead coupled with asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart and to become your Lord and Savior is what eradicates the primary sin.
What is Original Sin?Why did Adam Realize he was naked"After" eating from the tree?Is it possible that the story of the "Garden"was allegorical representing the birth of Self awareness in humans and Adam was the first person to experience this?Remember,God created humans on the sixth day..
The original Sin is the first act of disobedience to God....Adam realized that he had messed up a good thing....
I don't think that you can logically or by faith see the story as an allegory because there is not enough information ..
You surely confuse me....You deny the facts of the Bible, but then you turn around and declare that God created humans on the sixth day....What is your real question?
I mean no disrespect.
I just don't understand why Eating from the tree was a bad thing.
It seems knowledge of good and evil would help Adam avoid evil.
I am not denying the Bible,but I must be absolutely sure before I can in honesty commit to anything,especially something as important as this.
The Bottom line is that Jesus Christ, the creator of the universe loves you...If you were the only person on the earth, Jesus would have come and died to pay the price for your redemption....
See, Adam and Eve had dominion over all of the earth, but they were the second creation.....Prior to their creation, we had angels and other creatures who worshipped God. Satan (whose name was Lucifer before he messd up), was in charge of bringing worship from the earth to God in Heaven.
At that time the earth had other creatures, not man...(perhaps this is where the dinosaurs were), other types of beings were here...it doesn't matter what type of beings they were, but they had a praise for God....the book of Isaiah tells us that Satan got proud and lifted up and said that he would replace God and sit in his seat....that he would be like the most high God,
Then there was war in Heaven and Satan got kicked out and the world was covered in water....this is Genesis 1:1-2, It says, "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth, but the earth was without form and void.....The common understanding is that God cannot create something that is void and dark, so the question becomes, what happened between, "In the beginning God created".....and "..the earth was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep"
The supposition is that between these two events, Satan was kicked out of Heaven and landed on the earth thrusting it into darkness and emptiness.
In Genesis 1:3 we find God putting things back in order. It is during this time when God created man....The scriptures tell us that man was given the dominion that Satan had before he was kicked out of Heaven....He hates us because we gained from God what he lost....
This the reason that he tempted Eve....the kind of tree was not the issue it was the covenant that the devil was after....if he could get man to sin or disobey then he would cause man to loose fellowship with God, to loose our position. Man's fall would effectively limit God's ability to freely operate in the earth. Man's breech of contract turned the earth back over to Satan...Adam gave his autority to the devil.
God wasn't mad at man, but the stipulations of the covenant caused man to become seperated from God....hence the need for a savior....who could qualify to be a savior? Well, all of mankind originated from Adam and Eve and they were messed up, so there there was no man who could recoup the loss.
Jesus, stood up and said that He would make the sacrifice; and He did. he came in human flesh, was 100%man and 100% God. Because he was born without the benefit of human male sperm, he was born sinless...the only reason that He needed to be born and didn't just jump into the world is because God had to keep the terms ot he contract that He had written ....In order to be able to legally operate in the earth Jesus had to enter the world like every other human had to enter into the world...this made Him a legal sacrifice and able to operate in the earth according to the covenant.
Jesus isn't a punk nor was He a sadist...He took the punishment that we should have taken so that we wouldn't have to take it....we couldn't have made it.....The punishment is separation from the Father God....all of the other stuff, the beatings, the mockery, the death and pain wasn't the punishment.....that stuff is what is out there because of the devil.....Jesus had to suffer it so that He could kill it's power over us....The real punishment is the seperation from God.....
Jesus created a new contract or covenant because he defeated death, hell and the grave and rose from the dead....He tells us that His gift is eternal life, not damnation, He tells us that we are already damned because of Adam's sin and He came, He had to come to set us free....not bind us up.....
All that He requires is that we believe that He is the Son of God, that He came to earth to save mankind, that He voluntarily died to redeem us and that He rose from the dead.....If we believe this and ask Him to come into our heart...to be our personal Lord and Savior, we will be saved....
It is a free gift and the most vile person on earth can receive it.....God has forgiven us of all sin, past, present and futur. He did it through the shed blood of Jesue Chirst......it really is simple, but we try and make it hard....all you have to do is ask....Jesus loves you and is waiting for you to invite Him into your heart........
I am glad that you asked me that question.....I pray that the love of God touch your heart
Assuming the story is literal, eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an extremely dumb move. They already knew that obedience to God = good things keep happening to them, and breaking that one ridiculously easy rule set for them meant bad things would happen. Logically, they probably would have been able to figure out what good and evil were without eating any ill-gotten fruit.
It wasn't the honest desire for knowledge that was sinful, but lust for power and a failure to trust in their Creator that was their undoing.
absolutely.... vanity and lust for power will get ya' everytime....
...wait until you see with your eyes..Jesus and God and Holy Spirit...the most powerful Spirits for a far stretch of millions and millions of ion light years...then it's too late...then all this empty jabbering will seem so foolish...only when it's too late...do most of them jabbers result to SILENCE....
That's the spirit - ridicule anyone who does not believe in jeebus. Well done.
Wait until you stand in front of Allah and have to explain to him why you believed in lies. You'll know then the results of silence.
I could not care LESS for christianity or christ or christians for that fact.
You are a human being made from human parents. Plain and simple truth.
Naw...you care, because you hate it so much....venom just flows from you when you talk about it.......I tell you, "Cagsil, I challenge you to read the 4 gospels with an open mind...actually, you don't have to change anything about your feellings or thoughts...just read them through and tell us what happens when you get through......
Sorry, you're challenge is useless. Been there done that many years ago.
Why don't YOU try living what you preach? Put the doctrines to work...and I mean, just the FIRST 3 Doctrines and see how far you get.
Been there, done that. The realization you'll come to is that religion and everything that goes with it is FAKE or a HOAX if you like.
So, believe when I say, it's all juse a ruse for control.
Either way, you enjoy.
Wow, someone else told me that they were disenchanted with their past experiences in the Word....It's not like I don't understand but the issues that I had were with the people and their crazy ways....not with the Word....
I found that I needed to make a decision to believe what God said personally other than what man wanted me to believe....It took years before I could get free enough in my spirit to not be offended by folks......It ain't easy...but with the help of the living God, it is possible.......
Oh, I do try and live my doctrine, but I don't always succeed.....I know that I am not perfect, but my Savior is.....
So - you keep asking why people are not interested in subscribing to you ridiculous belief system. And when they tell you - you tell them their reasons are invalid and try and get them to read your book.
Open minded? LOLOLOLOL So very, very funny how little you "know yourself."
Any believers up for new questions?
If so, why did God sacrifice his son?
Briefly, it was to make up for the sins of the world and to show how much He loved people, right?
It was his destiny , many masters have been tortured and killed , abuse is very common.
Every human is the son or daughter of god and not only Jesus, he himself couldn't be more direct when he said "I tell ye you are all gods and the kingdom of god is within."
This is also Hindu philosophy . god is within every human.
All master do take on the karmic consequences of people but he didn't take up the sins for all of humanity, if he did we couldn't be seeing so much crime.
I don't uunderstand your type of religion.
I don't get How killing someone saves people.
I don't get How you say I know. Yet I don't ! Why is that?
Are you that much smarter than me, I don't believe so.
I think people of your kind are very arrogant, entitled to their opinions granted, but still very arrogant.
Why not admit, you know, no more than any of us. To disagree just makes a liar out of you.
To answer your question as a Believer....God sacrificed his son to pay for the sin of the world and to bring us back to Him....and above all to demonstrate His love for humanity.
Okay, that's pretty much what I thought.
But I don't understand why God chose that particular method to show his love for us. Again, it's cruel! Why not just give us all a big hug and a new car to show his love? That would have done it for me.
Besides, Jesus' death was not the worst or most painful death ever (not that it was fun) so how much of a sacrifice was it really?
How about the people who were drawn and quartered or burned alive for their religious beliefs? Or slowly starved to death? Or beaten and abused daily for years and years?
Plus, Jesus knew there was life after death so he had no fear. So really, how tough was it for him to suffer for a few hours? (That sounds bad but I don't know how else to phrase it.)
And I sure don't understand how sacrificing his son "paid" for the sins of the world. God's "paying" himself with his son (who is God too) and that makes up for our sins?
It kinda sounds like a bad movie plot...
Sara, just to keep things short, but ever been crucified lately? Even if I knew I would come out of that all right in the end, I'm sorry. I'm still going to very strongly dread having the skin flogged off my back, the humiliation, the uphill trek carrying a crossbeam, the nails being driven through my wrists and ankles, and the three hours hanging naked and bleeding by those nails. Jesus Himself did no less.
As for how death pays for sins- Christian teaching is that death is the ultimate consequence of sin.
Then if our sins have been paid for why are we still dying?
BTW, I acknowledged Jesus' death was no picnic. But mere mortals have suffered worse and what did they get out of it? Nothin' but dead.
Sara, nobody gets "nothin' but dead." Christianity teaches that depending on the choices we make in this life, we either go on to eternal happiness, or the spiritual death that results from permanent estrangement from God.
You completely missed the point.
And if this was directed at me, say so straight up: "You don't know squat about my religion, so don't tell me what it teaches."
Despite what you may think, I'm asking questions because world religions interest me. I question things that don't make sense to me; things that other people accept without bothering, or daring, to question.
You have no proof of your assertion, yet you are giving it as an answer to this important question, asked by Sara. Do you see what you are doing? How can you say that "nobody gets nothin' but dead." You are completely unqualified to assert that. I think at the end of life, we ARE nothing but dead, and the evidence support that. Where is yours?
I know of a group of people who believe that when you die "you are nothing but dead". but they only believe if for some of them . The also believe that a certain number of them will rise and be with God.....I would feel real insecure dealing with them 'cause i might not be is the special few......scarey.....
I want to be in the "going-up" group...
Your point is understood....but Jesus was not a mere mortal.....He was 100% man and 100% God. This is what qualified Him to take our place...
He was a man, but He was sinless, we are not. There two deaths, spiritual death and physical.....
You can't do anything about physical death (burial insurance is good to have) but, Jesus made it possible to do something about spiritual death. We are born into spiritual death and it takes a relatonship with Jesus Christ to give us spiritual life.......
What do you mean ?.....is my post in the wrong place....
Sometimes these things don't quite line up like I want them to
We can discuss it here or on the other thread, your choice. I can handle both threads, should you decide to stay here.
I do have another conversation going on in the other thread, but that's not a problem. It would be probably better if you and I stayed here to discuss it, so the other thread doesn't move to fast, where the conversation could get lost.
Jesus was a human being and NOTHING more.
Everyone is sinless. Sin is a religion term.
Of course not, death is the end of life.
No it doesn't. By the way, Jesus' last name wasn't Christ.
You never know!
Which reminds me of another question. Did Jesus have siblings?
I never heard a peep about any brothers or sisters when I attended parochial school (grades 1-8). But apparently other *Christian religions think he might have had a brother or two.
(*Some Christian religions don't consider Catholics to be "Christians".)
Actually, not that I know of, but as I've said before, which you might not be aware of, I have learned that NOT all of Jesus' work is included in religion, because some of it, has nothing to do with religion.
It cannot be written in religious text/scripture, because it's not related to religion. However, those things are under lock and key by Christianity, the true Christian religion, the one based on the Roman Catholic Church, which dominates the religious scripture. The Pope is Roman Catholic.
Oh, I completely agree!
Have you ever studied where Jesus was and what he was doing from his early teens until he started to teach during the final three years of his life?
Have you studied his travels to China and throughout Europe during that time period?
I find that extremely interesting!
The reason that Christ had to be sacrificed is simple, Christ was sinless, 100% totally innocent of all sin, so death had no hold on Him.
We on the other hand are full of sin, some more than others, but all sin is sin enough to warrant death, because death is the penalty and wages of sin.
To understand more needs faith, which I see little of from non believers (obviously)because faith is trust in things not seen and yet to happen.
Believers have faith, so they see the outworking of faith in their lives.
Non Believers obviously cannot see the outworking of faith in their lives, though they can obviously see the outworking of sin in their lives.
"In the garden there were two trees, that of good and evil, and the tree of life.
We were warned not to eat from the tree of good and evil, we ignored that command and in doing so we were separated from the tree of life.
God sent Christ to allow us a route back to Him and the tree of life.
Why would you still eat from the tree of good and evil?
Each tree has a root that will feed the fruit that the tree produces, and we are what we eat, so where we eat from is important and will be displayed in our lives.
The tree of good and evil has a root in PRIDE and produces selfish acts, it declares "I AM LORD" and it's fruits are well known and evident everywhere we look:
Selfishness,Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5 18:21)
The tree of life has a root in humility and unselfishness, it declares 'JESUS IS LORD' and it's fruits are to be desired and worked for, they will feed you well:
Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Who would wish to reject these and eat from the bitter tree of knowledge?"
From a hub I wrote yesterday.
Sara, you are correct. It is a badly written fiction. That's all the bible really is. I think JK Rowling can write much better plots.
As you choose to believe so be it......
Get a New Living Translation, it makes for easy reading....
Translation of what exactly?
I certainly hope you're not translating Jesus' work. Because, there is a high probability you're wrong in it's translation, like about 90% of the rest of world.
Translation of the Bible.......
It is true that the further away from the original language the more challenging it is to maintain the integrity of the original message.....
So, since I can't read Greek or Hebrew, I stand by the King James version....each of those words can be found in the lexicons which give us a pretty accurate understanding of the intent..
But when someone has difficulty with the King James, the New Living can help. Especially when it comes to some of the more technical accounts, ie, Chronicles which is a recout of the Israeli census.
Hi Sara, I
I want to respond point by point . You said, "But I don't understand why God chose that particular method to show his love for us. Again, it's cruel! Why not just give us all a big hug and a new car to show his love? That would have done it for me.
That’s kinda funny, but listen, the cruelty that He experienced was an expression of the cruelty and hate that exists outside of God’s presence.
You said, "Besides, Jesus' death was not the worst or most painful death ever (not that it was fun) so how much of a sacrifice was it really?"
Giving up your life for someone else is a sacrifice, no matter how you die. Would a more violent death prove any greater a sacrifice? I don't thik so and either way, I wouldn’t do it.
You said, "How about the people who were drawn and quartered or burned alive for their religious beliefs? Or slowly starved to death? Or beaten and abused daily for years and years? "
Again, dead is dead and none of them rose from the dead....it is the combination of Jesus death and resurrection that saved us....the reality is that dying wasn't the hard part because all men die....it was the getting up on Sunday morning that sealed the deal.
You said, "Plus, Jesus knew there was life after death so he had no fear. So really, how tough was it for him to suffer for a few hours? (That sounds bad but I don't know how else to phrase it.)
But, that is the point. He could be the sacrifice becasue of His faith. He knew He would rise from the dead.
You said, "And I sure don't understand how sacrificing his son "paid" for the sins of the world. God's "paying" himself with his son (who is God too) and that makes up for our sins? "
Yes. Jesus (God Himself) was the only sinless one – and the only one who could pay the price. Remember the sin that we are talking about is not smoking, murder theft and the like. The sin is separation from God. That separation is equal to death because God is life. The place reserved for those separated from God is Hell…….but the kicker is that Hell was not made for mankind; Hell was created for the devil and his angels.
When Adam sinned, he doomed all of mankind to eternal separation from God…hence Hell became our destiny….so, since that wasn’t the original plan of God, He had to have an alternative and that alternative was for Jesus (God Himself) to take the place of man and go through the destiny of man.
Once Jesus took the full punishment that man was supposed to take, He (Jesus) could squarely say that the punishment or the price had been paid and now any person who receives me (Jesus) as having paid the price for them can escape Hell and be reunited with God….no more separation.
You said, "Is soundls like a reallly bad movie plot."
That depends on what genre of film you like.....
If you haven't already seen it, you should see Mel Gibson's movie, "the Passion" - you can take a Bible and follow along with how it depicts Jesus' treatment.
Aliens have just landed in Brissie, one looks just like Spok!
Very jealous.. we have no aliens landing in Melbourne. Queensland gets all the good stuff!
Nope test doesn't have to be in lab. Just show the whole world that you experienced any angel or something, can you ? You can't as it can't get out of head to get approval of rest of the world, this requires delusion of similar person in order to get the agreement of that thought and this is where simple test fails let that lab test alone.
If you ever encounter Jesus in a real way, you won't need any external proof.
Anyone with a religious view?
Have an interesting read for you.
What translation would you like to use first?
You seem to be so bent on discussing the topic. Come on?
Remember, religion was around long be Jesus was even in existence. That should get your mind running in circle.
Also, remember, religion add Jesus' work to itself, after his execution.
I love the King James, although I have several other translations.....
A good way to study is to lay them all out and compare them.
Oh, anyone interested can go to blueletterbible.com and access many versions and guides; commentaries, audio, and video. I love that site.
Good, now discuss with me, what exactly you think you know about Jesus' teachings?
It's important you don't take away the wrong meaning of his words.
Thanks for the link. It looks like a great site!
Thank you for taking the time to explain things point by point.
I can't say I agree with you on everything but some things you said are definitely worth thinking about.
Oh, and thanks for being so polite. It's appreciated.
Some of us, just are not that way. Truth is truth, blunt or soft, it usually hurts.
You are welcome and thank you too....
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