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Questions about"Salvation"

  1. qwark profile image61
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    Just curious,
    Didn't jesus alledgedly say: "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" [John 3:3]"
    What happens to all the millions of good folks who lived thousands of years before jesus and those who exist today who never heard of him and his alledged purpose?
    What about illiterates who can't read?
    What about the mentally challenged who can't understand such things? ...on and on and on.

    1. Mikel G Roberts profile image88
      Mikel G Robertsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      They have to ride the 'Star Goat'...

    2. kess profile image60
      kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Being born again is finding that Spirit of Christ.
      As oppose to boasting about Jesus and bible.

      That Spirit is available to all with logical mind who can discern good from evil.

      That also means that since the begining of time The Spirit has been around, infact that is by the same Spirit who cause each and every person to have a consciousness of themselves.

      As long as one abide by this Spirit he is born again, all outward  religious patterns of baptism, confession, church going, good deeds are useless and irrelevant unless that Spirit is present.

      To some that Spirit is very tangible and easy to follow for that SPIRIT is Truth,  others may not have that tangibility but their conscience keep them abreast.

      I tell you the truth though, the large portion of those who boast in being born again have no clue as to the true nature of salvation for they are steeped in the false religion of christianity.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Kess, how is everything?

        - I could not agree with you more.

    3. TheGlassSpider profile image80
      TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The explanation is simple.

      Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is going to heaven, nor does everyone want to. That is for a particular group of people who truly want to become God-like, more than human.

      "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away..." Revelation 21, 1.

      Remember, Jesus also spoke about a multitude of people who would "inherit the earth." He is speaking of the "new earth." That's MOST people, and Jesus' death (trading himself for Adam, the originator of sin) has ALREADY paid for everyone's second chance (the resurrections). It's already a done deal, and you don't have to do anything now to be a part of the gift. You don't even have to believe it now. When the time comes to complete creation (b/c it's still in the process of being made) "every eye shall see him."

      The people who become totally spiritual creatures, who follow completely in Jesus' footsteps are the ones who are going to heaven to rule (we only need so many governors, and they need people to govern). The meek, the peacemakers...etc. other people who do not do the work to become part of the heavenly class will live upon the perfected earth.

      Also Jesus and God understand people as they are; His judgment is righteous he can understand someone's inner "works." Reading the book, joining a church, knowing "Jesus'" name (that's not even REALLY his name, anyway) makes no difference. Proverbs tells us that "wisdom crieth from the streets." Therefore, people are capable of knowing God's laws without ever having entered a Western-style church (indeed, IMO, they'd do better to stay away from them).

      God's laws are good in and of themselves, not because He said so...Thus, they are discernible and understandable without the Bible.

      1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
        TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this
      2. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        excellent translation of Revelations.
        i just did a 'class' on it with some friends.

        someone yesterday mentioned churches, bibles, verses, etc and His name, which i think he got offended when i refused to call myself a christian or evoke 'Jesus' over and over. since He has a name only he knows above all names...

        1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
          TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hey, thanks smile We are of the same opinion in that respect.

      3. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree

        1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
          TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks, Deb smile

          I wish more people (esp. Christians) could understand this instead of being exclusionary and condemning people to punishment. I think if more people could see this message, there'd be a lot less to fight about.

    4. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Interesting questions. However, I am of the understanding that people wouldn't want to really know. lol lol They rather assume their entitled, for whatever reason. lol lol

      But, I give you props on the question. lol lol

      I hope you find your answer. smile

    5. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Man has gained enlightenment long before Jesus spoke these words, the prophets come to re iterate the truth in the language of their times.

      Its is in the literal sense of dying and reborn that one know god or the light or the kingdom of god.


      Many illiterates with simple thinking have had this experience.take the master Muahmmad , Kabir they didnt have book knowledge.

    6. 0
      cosetteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      i always say if the Bible really was a holy book written by God he wouldn't have needed earthly humans to transcribe it or distribute it. the Word would have just materialized on every doorstep on earth in whatever language of the prevailing country and its pages would be made of some material that couldn't be torn or fade and it would have moving pictures and sound in it, then people would know God made it.





      roll

      if we laughed at Science we'd still be in the dark ages.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        as if! ....we are not in the `dark age` still...

      2. Valerie F profile image60
        Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        And your idea of a perfect God is an overindulgent parent who gives everything to us on a silver platter and doesn't expect us to work for anything or figure anything out on our own.

      3. Don W profile image83
        Don Wposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        "the Word would have just materialized on every doorstep on earth in whatever language of the prevailing country and its pages would be made of some material that couldn't be torn or fade and it would have moving pictures and sound in it, then people would know God made it."

        Sounds like an iPad

        1. 0
          cosetteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          well you know what this means don't you?

          Steve Jobs is God wink

    7. goldenpath profile image80
      goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Even the dead shall be taught.  All shall be judged according to their deeds but live according to the spirit.  In other words the only true mercy and justice of God would be for all to be judged by their own works in conjunction with the common knowledge of the Spirit.  Some are taught in life.  Many more are now being taught and will yet be taught in the realm of spirits.  We don't just sit and rot in this realm.  There is much work performed there as there is here in life.  This truth of doctrine, to me, is the miracle of the universal mercy and justice of God.  He is not a respector of persons but looks upon the heart and mind of all with common love.

      1. 61
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        So, how does that work for starving children? What deeds can they be judged other than looking for some food to eat? Why would a god judge them anyways after watching them starve to death? Shouldn't the god be judged for cruelty?

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Children are not judged by laws, Q. Don't be silly.
          Those who had a paycheck or even one last coin and withhold it when another human, child or not, is hungry shall be judged.

          God cannot be judged because of man Free Will action or inaction.
          Can I judge you as a murderer if your son chooses to kill another man? Are you at fault or is he for his action?

        2. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Q,
          I'm requesting a hub from you.  I wanna know what's behind your persistent focus on the plight of poverty while ignoring the other truths.  It's obviously something that consumes your thoughts.  Will you be so kind as to write one?  I find your focus very interesting.

          1. goldenpath profile image80
            goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Mam, you are very kind and polite and if it is your sincere request for me to do so I will have one published by the end of the week.  I have a deep belief in these things.  There are doctrines of life and death that cannot be briefly explained on a post.  I do thoroughly believe that all life is equal for we are all different and have accepted different missions.  Yet, for me, the great miracle is that with all the differences we all are promised the same glories and potentials.  When we cannot see beyond the injustices of this world we dim our sights on eternal perspectives.  It is these perspectives that matter beyond that which we see everyday.  The power is ours to change our little world.  It is the gift of agency that He has given us.

            If it is requested I will gladly publish a hub according to your request.

            1. goldenpath profile image80
              goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              My bad Brenda, your request was for Q.  Sorry for the misunderstanding.  This format can be confusing. smile

              1. 0
                Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                ...

                No need to apologize, goldenpath!  Yes this forum and format can be confusing!

                I'm only mad at you 'cause you called me "mam" in your other post.  That makes me feel old and it was TOTALLY un-called-for!

                Teehee I'm TEASING!  I'm no Barbara Boxer wink who takes offense at stuff like that; matter of fact, being called "mam" is a word of respect in my book.   Thank you for being nice and kind.  Just wanted to get ya goin' there with that response.   Hey I'd be willing to read a hub of yours; might do that here soon too.

          2. 61
            (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Brenda, if you haven't figured out the rationale yet, no amount of hubs written on my part will ever get through to you.

             

            The focus is on the hypocrisy of Christians. Haven't I made that clear, yet?

            1. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Indeed you have.

              And I will ask you this-----Why do you allow your assessment of others to cause you yourself to miss out on eternal Life?

              1. 61
                (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Because eternal life is a myth. Simple, really.

        3. goldenpath profile image80
          goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          It is entirely possible that they were among the most valiant of souls in the pre-existence as were the infants who die in this world.  If that's the case their salvation is all but asured them.  They only needed to gain a physical body in this life and their mortal mission was probably primarily for purpose of the rest of us.  For them the journey is long while starving in this life.  I agree.  However, in death they now have a recollection of their valiance and mission and given that knowledge their mortal journey seems as quick as a twinkle in the eye.

          This is part of what makes it all fair.  In most cases it is the rest of us of "normal" society and condition who have to prove themselves and not so much the dying infants or starving men, women and children with little knowledge or means.

          1. 61
            (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            While I got sick to my stomach and threw up reading that, I wonder if you actually have any compassion for people other than yourself. Clearly, religion has twisted your mind to the point of you justifying and insulting the dying and the dead who starved while you remained fat and joyous.



            It is this type of mindset that will see the destruction of all mankind. If an evil exists on this planet, you encapsulate it all, sir.

            1. h.a.borcich profile image60
              h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Somebody woke up crabby smile

              1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                lol, lol, lol too funny....

              2. 61
                (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You know, I got banned for saying much less. Why do you insist on insulting people and then complain when they engage you?

                1. h.a.borcich profile image60
                  h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I stated the obvious. You just told a kind man his post made you throw up and started harping about his twisted mind encapsulating all that is evil....Maybe you woke up happy?

                  1. 61
                    (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    A kind man? He is sick and twisted and is pure evil. His sick and twisted religion made him that way. He actually has the nerve to justify those deaths.

        4. 0
          SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I see you still haven't sold your computer to feed a few starving children. I wonder why you preach so much about them but yet do nothing that is in your power to help the situation.

          1. 61
            (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I see Jesus is still allowing thousands of children to starve to death every day while he attends to your every whim. You must really love that guy for all he does for you.



            Shouldn't praying to Jesus solve the problem? If not, why not?

            1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
              LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Q,

              Our praying to Jesus about starving children is the very reason you are so adamant about the plight of those children....you just aren't listening deeply enough to what He is calling you to do....anytime something is as heavy on your heart as this issue is on yours, you can rest assured that God has anointed you to do something about it....

              You are angry at Jesus because you say He isn't doing anything about it; but He is doing something. He is tugging on your heart and trying to use you to be His hands and feet of compassion....

              Trust me....You are called to the mission field.....God wants to use you.....smile

              1. 61
                (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                No, I'm aghast at Christians who believe Jesus does things for them and ignores starving children. I think I've explained that about a thousand times now, but many still ignore that simple concept.



                Please don't direct your mythical nonsense at me. I don't accept the superstitions of the Bronze age as you do.

                1. Precious Pearl profile image83
                  Precious Pearlposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Q, you are completely disregarding the fact that there are hundreds of Christian ministries that daily go into the field to do something about the starving children around the world.  The only reason that they do so is because of the Jesus' call on their lives to meet a need that is only growing in thie world because of man's selfishness.  If every person in the world gave or got involved with as much energy as they expend on complaining about nobody doing anything ... we wouldn't have a problem.

                  1. Cagsil profile image83
                    Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Hey Precious Pearl, believe it or not, people don't go out in that field, because of Jesus' teachings, they go out in that field for selfish reasons, which are tied to their belief of Jesus' work.

                    If these people didn't believe in Jesus' work would they still do what they do? Probably not. big_smile

                    Just a thought. smile

                  2. 61
                    (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    We wouldn't have a problem if your Jesus stopped paying so much attention to you Christians asinine prayers and got off his bony butt and did something about the starving children, yes?

            2. 0
              SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              You have freedom of choice. You choose to crow about starving children while refusing to do anything about it. Doesn't this make you a hypocrite?

              1. 61
                (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                What makes people hypocrites is when they make claims to their gods doing things for them while those same gods do nothing for others and allow them to suffer horribly and then die.

                That is a hypocrite, my friend.

            3. 0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Q, why would YOU pray TO 'Jesus'. One must believe there is someone there to answer if one prays. Asking such questions shows -in some manner, you DO believe in Him, despite your conjecture & contradictory tone.

              Leslie is correct, you are running from your calling.

          2. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
            LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Good one....SirDent big_smile lol

      2. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        spot on, brother, spot on!

    8. vox vocis profile image93
      vox vocisposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Do you question the mysterious ways of God our Saviour? It's impossible to us but not to Him...
      Abraham lived before Jesus yet Jesus mentioned him living so many times (because of his faith) and concerning the others you mentioned, don't be so narrow, just accept some things remain unknown to people (that doesn't mean they don't happen)...

    9. goldenpath profile image80
      goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The Father and the Son knew these conditions would exist and made plans for such.  Through vicarious work, which is taking place now, the ordinance of baptism is extended to even the dead to accept or reject upon their agency to choose.

    10. IntimatEvolution profile image82
      IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      qwark, just one small thing here.  In Timothy, it talks about how Christ went down to hell and releases all the faithful before him.  And, how they were sent to heaven accordingly.  Just a side note to one of your questions about what happened to the ones before him.

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That is what I been trying to talk about since I been on here.   Old Testament prophesy was for and to that Hebrew Nation that those prophets were talking to.  That Nation ceased to exist around 138 AD.
           We been living during the time of the New testament prophesy ever since.   It aint in the future. It has been fulfilling itself ever since that Nation ceased to be.

        1. IntimatEvolution profile image82
          IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I think we are on the same wave length, still however, I am literally speaking of a scripture in the bible that tell us Christ released all those who can before him, from the pits of hell.  It is one of the few times, that hell is actually referred to as an actually place of existence. 

          Do we still coincide? I mean, I don't know.  I just wanted Qwark to know that the answer to that particular question, was answered in the bible.

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I think that many questions that we ask can be answered in the bible after we dig through three feet of false interpretations that have been piled up on top of them.
               The rest of the answere were not included in the cannon.

            1. IntimatEvolution profile image82
              IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Oh yes, I am the first to agree with that sentiment.  In it's entirety. I also believe that many of our religious questions, have already been answered- just in another voice or religious belief. 

              So much can be learned by combining other faiths, and what we know of them.

              1. goldenpath profile image80
                goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I agree.  I've always exhorted over the pulpit to always seek the good in all people and faiths for many faiths have pieces of the puzzle.  Through the spirit, discernment and sound judgement we are to utilize our agency to choose those points for ourselves according to what feels right.

                1. IntimatEvolution profile image82
                  IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I glad that is the word you preach.

                  1. goldenpath profile image80
                    goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Only pride prompts one to say "I have all answers and you have nothing".  It is wrong and inconsistent with tolerance and understanding.  We should be at least open to other views and ideas even at least for the sake of gaining knowledge of other points of views in the world.  Only through knowledge can we correctly discern answers for ourselves.  Also, we should always frame up against those answers future points of views and discoveries that we may come across.

                    The renting of pride frees us from living inside a box with only mirrors for our company.  Strive to "see" and understand beyond those walls.

              2. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I remember when I first found out that there was a such thing as a computer. About a 1/2 a century ago that somebody needs to develop a system to program all the info about theism into the program and see what the commonalities were.
                  1/2 a century later nobody has done it yet that I know about.

                1. IntimatEvolution profile image82
                  IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Well that would be interesting.

                  1. Jerami profile image78
                    Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    From my earliest years; as long as I can remember I have known that there is some kind of intelligent force that has influenced my life.  Church gave it a name, said it was "GOD"
                       OK...   They taught me (John 3:16)  And the song "Jesus loves the little children .. all the children of the world...."
                       I agree with all of that but the rest didn't ever all up.
                       I believe in Jesus and the Father ...  but I don't know ??
                    I may be buddhist, Hindu, and maybe a little Islam.
                        Mainly the God of Abraham...  Maybe the Buddhist and Hindu don't know about the Abraham part, don't mean that One father don't have more children than I know about.
                        For the Jewish people and the covenant such as it was... Jesus is the only way to the father???
                        I remember as a grade school er...  some kids got to skip a few grades  I had to go a diffrent path???
                        The only thing that I know is those things that I have felt and experienced my whole life. Everything else is the best educated guess that I can figure with I got to figure with.

                2. Obscurely Diverse profile image61
                  Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  You're an idiot?  An imbecile? A doltish being?  Hey, it is never too late to turn it around.  Just think, I'm totally mentally challenged and have made it this far; you can do it, Jerami!  Ha-ha!

                  1. qwark profile image61
                    qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Obscurely:
                    lolol hell, I'll accept "nice words" about me from anyone who posts em.
                    Ty...:-)

          2. TheGlassSpider profile image80
            TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Consider that the word "hell" comes from the Hebrew word for "the grave." I suspect when it says he releases those before Him that it means he releases them from death (the pit of the grave)--in other words, they died before Him but will live again. smile

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I agree

      2. qwark profile image61
        qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Intimat:
        Have ya studied the history of the OT?
        It doesn't seem to me that ya have.
        You read it and quote it as tho it's credible.
        Both the OT and the NT have undergone so many interpretations and re-interpretations in oh so many languages....and...during the 1000 yrs of the dark ages the Roman catholics burned almost all books and parchments that they disagreed with that there's really nothing to believe in in it..
        Then in 1611 King James and his chosen ecclesiastics decided, hell, why don't we write it to suit our needs.
        So ya see, Intimat, if ya study the history of the 3 major contemporary monotheisms, the only logical conclusion is that people who believe in "bull shit"...haven't done their homework and are just easily led followers...it's as simple as that.  :-)
        Thanks tho for the reply..:-)

        1. Obscurely Diverse profile image61
          Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yeah, bi-atch!

          1. IntimatEvolution profile image82
            IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I'm sorry.  Did you just call me a bitch??? 

            See to me, it appears that you just did.

            1. Obscurely Diverse profile image61
              Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Nope, it is "snoop dog" slang in America; a compliment, if you will.

              1. IntimatEvolution profile image82
                IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                K. 

                I live in Missouri.  However, little old for Snoop.  Thanks for clarifying however.  Cheers.

                1. Obscurely Diverse profile image61
                  Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Okay, yo, chick/gal/babe:  Holla-holla!  How's that for contemporary speech?

                2. goldenpath profile image80
                  goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Greetings!  Finally, someone in my neighborhood.  I'm in southwest Iowa. smile  Although, Iowa is still Iowa...

                  1. IntimatEvolution profile image82
                    IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I use to live in Ames, and worked in West Des Moines. 

                    Hi!

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I wouldn't consider that a compliment. But that's just me.

                1. Obscurely Diverse profile image61
                  Obscurely Diverseposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I forgot to ask you.  Can I...at least call you Deb?  Miss Astutely Observant, perhaps?  LOL!

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    No, you can't call me Deb or any other demeaning name.
                    My name is Deborah.

    11. Haunty profile image83
      Hauntyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This maxim does not belong to Jesus or to Christianity. It does not even belong to religion, because it's part of the teaching of a primordial tradition that had come to be well before there were religions. Look up the word 'palingenesis'.

  2. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    if i may.

    1. the one's before: he descended into the 'Pit' and proclaimed the Word to them. all from Adam to Moses, Moses to Christ heard. Those who believed took part in the 1st resurrection.

    2. reading is irrelevant. The book only is an inspiration and profitable for knowledge, wisdom, etc to be used via spirit for understanding. so whether or not they could read does not make a difference. most people were in fact illiterate.

    3. those who cannot understand the truth or have never been told of Him, salvation cannot be held accountable. (i.e. if you fell into a hole that you never knew was there, you cannot be blamed for it).

    sidebar note: 'born-again' does NOT mean you joined the church or a religion. the confession or social proof of your belief in Him was displayed by water baptism.

    the first is water: when you are born of your mother you are born of water. second is spirit: when you are born of spirit, the anointing, Grace/Spirit of Him is re-ignited in you and by walking with the Spirit you are led into all truth. You are no longer judged by sin, but by the works of faith. You are considered to be in 'right standing' / righteous in His eyes and once again.

    in addition, salvation has been given to everyone -believer or not. they must either accept the gift freely or reject it freely.

    1. qwark profile image61
      qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      21:
      Do you dare challenge the words of your jesus?

      ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).

      Regardless of your opinions regarding that which you just offered, your "savior" jesus christ, alledgedly made a very affirmative statment.
      You can tapdance around the barn and try to intepret scripture to fit your needs, but to one who understands english, his alledged words represent an absolute.
      Is it no wonder that worldwide there exist close to 40k differing protestant sects, each interpreting scripture to suit it's needs.
      You are just following suit..:-)

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        your spelling and grammar st!nk quark.
        it is an absolute. born of water & spirit.
        YOU might want to read the whole passage.

        apparently, the folks of old were not the only illiterate it seems

        1. Hokey profile image59
          Hokeyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          WOW! Very judgmental!!!!Not being very Christian.

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this
            1. earnestshub profile image87
              earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              ...and included a typo! lol lol

      2. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I do not recall Jesus defining "Born again" Except for saying "to be born again of the spirit".
             If you have a biblical answer to that I would appreciate hearing it.

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          the passage states:

          you must be born again.
          the man asked him how is this possible to be born if i am already born. Y`shua said -emphatically- I tell you the truth, unless you are born of water AND spirit you cannot enter.

          the first birth is human, the second is spirit
          where is the need for further characterization? It is a statement of fact.

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                That is what I was thinking.
              Just wanted to hear someone else say it.

      3. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
        LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Qwark;
        Your thinking is hysterical to me...why are you beating around the bush? You should just say,"Christians, I don't care what you say or how you explain the answers that you offer for my questions. I am still going to believe what I believe."

        You know the only reason that you asked the questions that you did is so you could get into an argument and flaunt your anger....

        The most interesting thing is how self-deceived you are...Do you really think that you can cause a believer to renounce Christ based on your "hear say" explanations....that ain't happening...


        Just keep on....you are giving believers a lot to pray about...your name is in every saved Hubbers prayer basket.  It won't be long beforeyou will cry out "Abba Father big_smile

      4. Wealthmadehealthy profile image59
        Wealthmadehealthyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Amen to that.....

    2. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Has it been given to the starving children rather than food? I'm sure they appreciate it as their bodies rot on the streets.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        here, you forgot your paycheck, Q. might want to erase the hypocrite label off the front, its very noticeable.

      2. Tom Cornett profile image58
        Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        If all religions and atheists alike would share a little instead of stuffing themselves...there wouldn't be any starving children.

        1. 61
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I'm surprised Christians haven't solved this problem already, they seem to believe Jesus can do anything if you pray. I suppose they just pray for their own personal salvation and to hell with the children.

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            sure blame the other guy, helps you sleep at night, that quaalude called absolution. 'wasn't my personal responsibility, it was the one armed christian'. yeah right.

            1. 61
              (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              There isn't anyone else to blame. Show me your god and I'll slap him upside the head if you want. Clearly, he can't lift a finger in his own defense or do anything to solve problems. He's worthless and needs to know that.

              I'll be the first in line to tell him. smile

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                well, neither can you.
                now go cash that paycheck and give it to the poor, eh?
                -no stopping at the pub on the way...

                1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                  LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  lol, lol, lol

              2. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Q,

                Go right ahead and tell Him Q, that won't change one ounce of love that He has for you....You don't get it.....you cannot make God dislike you, or "do" something to you......He loves you......

                I'm telling you.....you are running from the call of  God on your life.....yep, that's it.

                1. 61
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  The gullible will often turn their delusions upon others as they are blissfully unaware that others aren't as gullible as them.

            2. Tom Cornett profile image58
              Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              An Atheist may feed a hungry child with no expectation of reward. A Christian may feed a hungry child with expectation of reward.  Who do you think is closer to God?

              1. 61
                (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Well said, Tom.

              2. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                neither. they both should do that anyway.

              3. Valerie F profile image60
                Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Who says atheists don't feed poor children with no expectation of award? Do you know all their motivations? Maybe they do it to gain social recognition. Maybe they do it because they feel guilty about having more. Maybe they do it so they can brag about their moral superiority. Maybe they do it for the tax deductions. Or maybe they do it for honest reasons like it's simply the right thing to do.

                Similarly, you really have no basis for judging a Christian's motivation for doing good. The only difference is that we have an authority higher than humanity that encourages us to do so.

              4. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Tom,

                I thought the point was to feed the hungry...not to trip over who does or who doesn't want a reward.....

                Who do you think is closer to God....How smug we can be...."I don't want a reward for my good deeds. God loves me more...na,na,na, na, na, na." 

                Are you serious????

                1. Tom Cornett profile image58
                  Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Ever read the Good Samaritan?  If you ever jump off of that christian pedestal...you might want to invest in a parachute.  smile

          2. Tom Cornett profile image58
            Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              (Q)...very true.  Feeding and caring for the children was then and is now the number one priority according to the teachings of Jesus.  Religion says he meant to feed them the gospel because most of them are too selfish and lazy to actually do something that Jesus specifically told them to do.....he meant FEED as in FOOD...beans...corn...etc!

            1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
              LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Hi Tom.....

              I think if you research it you will find multitudes of Christian organizations feeding people around the world ...and in the United States

              James Robinson,
              Operation Blessing
              Samartian's Purse
              Rod Parsley
              Fred Price
              World Vision
              Feed the Children
              Christian Mission Aid Relief
              Feed My Starving Children
              Organization of Christian Ministries
              Project Genesis
              Children's Cup

              And a whole bunch more....do you give to them or volunteer to help them? What about the folks in your neighborhood? Your local charities or feeding centers...do you help them out?

              1. Tom Cornett profile image58
                Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Nope..I'm totally selfish...I steal candy from toddlers... I have horns too!  Isn't Parsley the guy who doesn't touch door knobs and claims he is a descendant of Jesus?
                Check the paychecks dear....feed the kids after the preacher's cut....A lot more kids could be fed...ya know.  smile

    3. cheaptrick profile image59
      cheaptrickposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Very well put"the Spiritual man judges All things but he Himself is Not Subject to judgment".That's a Gnostic Flag in the Orthodox Church's New Testament.
      Being"Reborn"is the realization of our Spiritual Origin.
      Salvation Comes threw Understanding the"Narrow Path"that Leads us Back to where we Came from in the first place.
      IMO
      Dean

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        hey buddy. how are things?!

        1. cheaptrick profile image59
          cheaptrickposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry it took so long to reply TWC.I have to steal time for HP from Work or I get Jumped for it[which is kinda weird cause I'm the owner]by my coworkers so I'm in and out.
          Getting Nomad ready for my annual adventure into the great unknown takes every spare minute but she is my only love so I don't mind lol.
          Thanks for stopping by my Hub on C G.
          How are things with you?

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            been hella busy.

            trying to get a new network marketing training company up and running. the web work is exhausting.

            else, enjoying the 'table tennis' matches here on HP.

  3. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Twenty One Days,
    very well explained.
    Amen.

  4. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    Hello Brenda, how have you been?!

    and thank you.

    James.

  5. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    I'm Blessed and stressed at the same time;  but isn't everyone?!thank you for asking!
    Hope you're doing well also?
    I was just skimming over some of your hubs;  time's scarce for me right now;  but already I find them interesting.

  6. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    qwark,
    To be born again means to become a "new creature" in Christ.
    A spiritual transformation.

    1. qwark profile image61
      qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Brenda:
      I respect your OPINION. :-)
      Of course you know they sell for about a dime-a-dozen..:-)

      1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
        LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Qwark,

        I heard yours were on sale.... big_smile

        (I couldn't resist - I really mean it in a humorous fashion....You just left yourself wide open)

        Love ya

    2. Rochelle Frank profile image89
      Rochelle Frankposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Elaborate, please?

        1. Rochelle Frank profile image89
          Rochelle Frankposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          My personal experience. The experience is personal to each believer.

  7. 0
    sneakorocksolidposted 6 years ago

    It's good to see all the good teaching and discussion done in the name of our Savior Jesus Christ. We were given Free-Agency and we must use our choice wisely.smile

  8. qwark profile image61
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    21:
    Adhominems? I kind've expected that tho.
    You justmade my point perfectly!Thank you for that.
    As I said, "Is it no wonder that worldwide there exist close to 40k differing protestant sects, each interpreting scripture to suit it's needs.
    You are just following suit..:-)

  9. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Paul defined it in 2Corinthians 5: 14-21.

  10. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    whatever.
    you asked a question we answered.
    if that answer doesn't suit your motive, so be it.

    as for interpreting. that is the literal.
    what is it precisely you are looking to achieve/prove?

  11. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Ah, but the right opinion/interpretation is priceless, qwark.

  12. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    it is that Spirit that hovered over the waters of creation, that same Spirit that raised Y`shua from the dead and that Spirit which lives in you who believe.

    again, i am paraphrasing...

  13. kess profile image60
    kessposted 6 years ago

    Hello twenty one and that "unnamed you know who you are"

    Good to see you all posting the wisdom from the Spirit.

    1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
      TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Kess! Wonderful to see you as well. I apologize for not getting back to you sooner...Things have been pretty busy around here.

      I hope you are well.

  14. Tom Cornett profile image58
    Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago

    Even a tiny light can be seen within a great darkness. The Kingdom of Heaven is a state of existence....the bliss of love and joy....likened to a child....not a carnal place.
    I enter the Kingdom of Heaven often...when another human being hugs me and says,"I love you."  Sin cannot enter because the Kingdom is of true innocence...a good will and kindness if you like?
    What does salvation require?  A bathing of the soul by the spirit.

    1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ye must be born-again....

      1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
        TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Is that directed to anyone in particular?

      2. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Amen!

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Well I'm in then! smile

  15. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    There is one thing I think is being left out of this conversation,  especially of course from kess (who I've been given to believe doesn't believe Christ is divine....right, kess?)


    ...If we're born again,  we will Love Jesus (who was the Son of God and God in the flesh).  And we must believe that fact.

    ...We cannot be spiritually made new unless we love the Lord.
    It's one of His commandments,  and it's simply a "given", a requirement;  salvation isn't an emotionally sterile, robotic thing;  it's about Love, and recognizing the Love that God has for us.

    1. kess profile image60
      kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You either have not been reading or mis reading my post.

      I say I am divine, and you can be too, that is the inheritance of The sons of God.

      Another thing, Jesus clearly said and it is written, who re ever speaks against him Jesus will be forgiven, but not any who Speaks against The Spirit.

      Can you say you understand that  Jesus himself placed The Spirit above Himself?

      Do you understand Why he did?

      I would love to explain but I know you are not able to recieve it.

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes I understand why He did it,  and like you, I would love to explain it but I doubt you would receive it!

        I like discussing this, and wish I had the time to continue tonight.
        I will say this and then I literally gotta run (back another time, God willing)...


        ---We humans are not divine and never will be!----

        Only God/Christ is that!


        Joint heirs with Christ means we inherit the Kingdom by Spiritual adoption.
        It does not mean we inherit divinity.
        WE will never be God.

        1. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The kingdom of god is within you , I tell ye you are all gods, this is the basics of Jesus teachings.

          1. 61
            (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            And, when everyone is a god, no one is a god. wink

            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              God is omnipresent, all is god. smile

              1. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
                LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                God is omnipresent.....but, all is not God, God is not in everything and God is not the bad guy in this scenario.

                I am beginning to think that you guys are trying to get Believers to have an all out Bible Study....hmmmm, not a bad idea. big_smile big_smile

                1. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Omnipresent means in all things.

          2. 0
            Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            My (Deborah's) statement "I agree
            Brenda's statement here:Is so wrong..."

            ************************************************************
            Brenda Durham wrote:

            ---We humans are not divine and never will be!----

            Only God/Christ is that!
            Joint heirs with Christ means we inherit the Kingdom by Spiritual adoption.
            It does not mean we inherit divinity.
            WE will never be God.


            ***********************************************
            Me (Deborah) again here
            "Man is divine. As long as we doubt that fact we can never know God.

            What do you think Christ taught?
            Scripture says to think it not robbery to make ourselves equal to God. "

            1. Disappearinghead profile image89
              Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Hi Deborah,
              I haven'te read what Brenda wrote, this forum is getting a bit lengthy now.

              However, I must agree with her stateemtnes that man is not devine. He is nothing but a created being who though in the image of God is only so by dint of sharing some of his characteristics such as: intelligence, wisdom, self awareness, creativity, love, etc, etc.

              Only Christ is divine:
              Philippians 2:5-7 (New International Version)
              5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
              6Who, being in very nature God,
                    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
              7but made himself nothing,
                    taking the very nature of a servant,
                    being made in human likeness.

              1. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I included what Brenda wrote. She said man is not divine, not me.

              2. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                That bible you are quoting is a very bad interpretation of what was really said. Your bible is in error.

                1. 0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  cha-ching!
                  right again.

                  "the Bible" is nothing compared to Talmud -especially the spoken portion (Mishnah).

                  Talmud never places man as divine apart from Y`weh, never.
                  So it is IN HIM we ARE divine. Do deny this is to deny the Spirit. The Spirit IS divine and dwells in us and MAKES US divine.

                  We ARE the offspring of Divine, the seed of divine therefore we are the same, divine.

                2. Disappearinghead profile image89
                  Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I have an interlinear literal greek translation which includes the best available greek texts gong back 1900 years. It says the same thing. I'd be interested in what bible you have that says something different.

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    The Hebrew and Greek. However I read Greek and understand it.

                  2. cheaptrick profile image59
                    cheaptrickposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Your Greek Bible Was A translation Of the Hebrew and Coptic.
                    Translation Always reduces Content.Jesus Spoke Aramaic.Find a Bible in Ancient Aramaic and you've got something.
                    We all struggle for Enlightenment not knowing that it's already there.Christ had everything we have,He just didn't have Anything More.Arguing about what the Bible means just adds to the humanness that blocks our Light from Shining.Understand this...Christ taught the way he did so Each could understand through There ability to Comprehend.That is why he is the Light of the World and not the few.

              3. 0
                Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Philippians 2:5-6 KJV

                Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
                Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

                If we are to have the same mind as Yah Shua and he thought it not robbery to be equal with God, we are to think that way too.

                The KINGDOM of God is within a MAN. Realm, domain, territory, zone.

                We are the TEMPLE of GOD.The dwelling place of God

                1. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  The very purpose of life to understand your god self., your divinity.

                  1. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Those who can't get this or think it's blasphemy will never know God.

                    Know you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me?

                2. Disappearinghead profile image89
                  Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  The KJV has had 20,000 corrections to it since first written. I don't think it should be taken as reliable.

                  1. Disappearinghead profile image89
                    Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    BTW, the point of this pssage is not to tell us we are divine, but to emphasise that we ae to folow Christ by being servants of others.

  16. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Twenty One Days,

    I personally refuse to ever be ashamed to apply the term "Christian" to myself, and will never be ashamed of the name of Jesus the Christ.

    Mark 8: 38.

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      i mean no offense nor ashamed to call Him my Lord.
      but the title was given by pagans to believers, much like the title Jew was given to the Hebrews by the Egyptians and again by the Romans -both slanders/slave titles.

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I see what you mean.
        I've heard that explanation before.
        Still doesn't stop me from loudly proclaiming His name.
        Let every man be a liar, but God be true!

    2. TheGlassSpider profile image80
      TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I do NOT call myself a "Christian," and neither did the Savior. Since it's the powerful, earthly "Christian" institutions who have whored themselves with the governments of the world and who are blaspheming His original teachings, who have perverted His words, and hidden the works of many of His people. They teach with fear, and they spread the first lie ever told, "You will not surely die."

      "Jesus" is not even the name of the person/entity to whom Christians refer; "Christ" is not a name at all, and the 25th of Dec. is not His birth date. Nor is "God" the name of the entity about whom they claim to speak.

      I would be ashamed to share a title with any group of people who dare accuse the Creator of the Universe of torturing His children forever, who make it okay to condemn other of God's creations, in direct opposition to the purpose of the sacrifice of His Son.

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        There's a couple things wrong with that...

        Firstly,  God doesn't torture His children, especially "forever".
        Not all humans are His children, because not everyone chooses to follow Him....

        1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
          TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I am aware that God doesn't torture His children. My statement should have made that obvious. But the man-made churches who teach that the condemned burn in hell forever think so, and they teach that (i.e. they teach fear, as I said). If you don't believe that, good for you.

          Every person who is and ever has been are the children of God, by virtue of the fact that He is our Creator, our Ultimate Parent; it's a pretty simple concept--according to the Bible we are ALL the children of Adam, believers and non-believers alike. Jesus paid with his life so that ALL of Adam's children could have the chance to see and accept him during the resurrections.

          If you and a man had a child and wanted that child to take over the family business, that child would be no less yours because he chose a different route. The exclusivity found in man-made "Christian" churches is sick and blasphemous.

  17. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    Brenda, I believe most truly do love him.
    But I also think they see him more as the Son of Man than the Son of God. Even He told us not to worship him, but instead the Father.

    He is clearly savior, first born from among the dead;
    As He said -i call you brothers, friends, as i am so are you in this world.

    and at his return to the Father, kept his promise of sending the Spirit to us, to lead and guide us into all truth...

  18. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Does that mean you don't believe in the Godhead?

    And do you know that the Holy Ghost was around even in the Old Testament?

    The Triune God is a totally unique, awesome Being.  Three manifestations which are inseparable, though they performed distinctly different purposes at given times....

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      smile you go girl!

    2. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      no, no. He is the fullness of the 'godhead' in physical form.
      rhema, imrah & logos.

      funny, because when i tried to explain this concerning consciousness i got a lot of static back. He was/is living proof of who we are to be and how we are seen by the Father. This was Adam. Christ being the second Adam.

  19. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    paraphrasing:

    see, we fed the poor, made medicine to heal the sick, build temples for them to pray, we even cast out darkness in your Name"

    He replied, "Get lost, I don't even know you."

    1. Tom Cornett profile image58
      Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes...he was talking to Christians.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        au contrare.

        he was talking to everyone. there is no such thing as christian to Him. wink

        1. Tom Cornett profile image58
          Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Uh...they did it in his name...never heard an Atheist say.."Here's a ham on rye in the name of Jesus."  smile

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            never heard a christian, muslim or hebrew say that either, what's your point. stereotyping?

            1. Tom Cornett profile image58
              Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Muslims and Jews don't worship Jesus. To do something in the name of Jesus...I would think one would know who he is?

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                dunno, you tell me.

                1. Tom Cornett profile image58
                  Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Tell you what?

                  1. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    see above...

        2. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Good point twenty one days he was talking to everyone.

  20. qwark profile image61
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    I love to post these kinds questions and read with interest the, in the main, passionate responses of believers who have nothing to base their religious zeal upon but fantasy, conjecture and opinion.
    This god that moses created is a young concept. It's only about 3400 yrs old.
    So many god/s existed prior to this one. They all had their day and disappeared in the rapidly advancing maze of human progress.
    This god thing too, will pass. It is but a "fad" that will be replaced in time by education and understanding.
    That is if it's fanatical followers don't bring the self-fullfilling prophecy of armageddon to pass and end the reign of "man" prematurely.
    At the moment tho, sadly, that is the most probable scenario.

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      you almost seem concerned, quark.
      ps, there is no Armageddon, just so you know.

      1. qwark profile image61
        qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        21:
        I'm sure, the likes of you will create one..:-)

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          "the likes of me". Yup, stereotyping.

          1. qwark profile image61
            qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            21: What's yer problem with sterotyping?
            Personally? I think it's a damned good way to identify the essence of anything.
            You stereotype me as an "illiterate." I stereotype you as a primitive who represents the lesser evolved of humanity.
            I have to give you credit. You do it well and with zeal..:-)

            1. 0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              i'm flattered quark. you use a lot more words to stereo me than i needed to stereo you. Guess the amplitude helps ya, eh?

              ps, try not to steal my lines, directly from my hubs while i am in the 'room' it is kind of, rude.

              1. qwark profile image61
                qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                21:
                Hahaha...damned straight!
                This is fun..:-)
                Where would you like to go from here?
                it is seldom that I get to play like this.
                Lets see...hmmmmm..ok I have it: " Pls provide me with scripture in any monotheistic writing that defines this god thing..FACTUALLY. No opinion or conjecture will be accepted.
                Can ya do that for me? If you can, I'll take you seriously.
                If you can't, golly, I'll have to presume that you are not a credible "hubber" in ref to this god thing and just chuckle at your obvious absurd bigotry..ok?
                Go for it!  :-)

                1. Doom Jr6 profile image61
                  Doom Jr6posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Man qwark you never seem to let me down smile I love these kind of conversations get me more cunfused then i need to be. gosh i hope you guys know what it is like to be a teen and hearing this. you know what i think I think that qwark is doing this for couristy and for entertain meant i would do the same. And am catholic so don't you dare try to convert me to cristianity all I wan't to be is a good person and satisfy my couristy for philsphy, science, and books like the good old J.R.R. tolkian would have read all before I go to heavon are in thte earth were my body gets recycled into other being on this soon to be barran planet. good cristions don't convert other peaple they should be with there family, are practicing worshiping a practicer is better than a preacher so don't degrade your self so stop pearching and practice as your "god" would have you do.

                  1. Doom Jr6 profile image61
                    Doom Jr6posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Darn I have spelled some errors sorry, (skip meant added a T in the) and try to be in the middle you guys don't segergate yourselves.

                  2. Tom Cornett profile image58
                    Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Well said....doing is better than arguing. "stop preaching and practice as your "god" would have you do." Beats all the stuff I said.  smile

                2. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Science is building huge particle accelerators , spending billions in order to find the god particle,you should laugh at science.

                3. 0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  lol really? okay, actually read your request:

                  provide a scripture
                  in any "monotheistic" writing

                  There is no such thing as a "monotheistic" scripture.
                  In all seriousness, there is no mono-theism at all.

                  next...

    2. TheGlassSpider profile image80
      TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol Okay. At least some people have the guts the proclaim what they believe rather than asking questions only to have the chance to attempt to poke fun at the people who answer them.

      Anyway, a study of history, cultures, religions, and philosophy will reveal that most religions believe(d) in a Creator God, though they may assign Him different names. Further study will reveal that according to many of those religions the point of existence is the same: To Love.

      Regardless of the beliefs involved; there's more going on that's ready to cause Armageddon than believers and their "self-fulfilling prophecy." And we're all contributing to it, believers and non-believers alike.

  21. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    its odd really,

    atheist have only questions, no answers, full of deniability.
    science has only questions, no answers, full of deniability.
    religion has only questions, no answers, full of deniability.

    seems no one knows.
    it all comes back to the Need To Know.

    1. 61
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, it is odd that one would remain in denial.

      btw, 'deniability' is not a word. smile

  22. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    oh before i sign off for the day, Quark, did you ever take my advice and read the "Tao of Physics". Seriously a good read, as is Zen & the A of MM. might shed some light on your new age thinking.

  23. qwark profile image61
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    In reading the inane comments regarding my question about "salvation," it came to me that, WE, being ANIMALS having evolved the anomaly of "consciousness," consider ourselves to be 'worthy" of gaining immortality after our death.
    No other "animal" considers its death, ergo there is no fear involved.
    The man animal, consciously considers death and understands the concept: eternity.
    Wouldn't it be logical to imagine and create a method to alleviate the fear of the consequence of death? To engender a pathway to "salvation?"
    For "heavens" sake, an epiphany!
    Isn't god great?....:-)

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You are closer to the Truth than realize typing that, Quark. Consciousness is THE sin/shortcoming/blindeness of mankind.

      for the 1st time since we began dialoguing, i salute you.


      pump up the volume, pump up the volume, pump up the volume, dance, dance...

    2. LeslieAdrienne profile image82
      LeslieAdrienneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I am not an animal....a mammal yes, an animal no.....smile

  24. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    ...hence why the Savior came. Everyone is saved.
    some are getting into the kingdom, some in the outer court.

    jewels or ashes.

    as for those non-human beings, there is no salvation, thus eternal torment.

  25. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Now I see how you're interpreting it.....I think....

    But to me, that makes no Biblical sense.

    If, for instance, I thought there was no real hell, I probably wouldn't even try to follow Christ!  Because there would be no challenge, no call to "choose ye this day whom ye will serve".....

    Who would want to have "second best"?   The "outer court" isn't a good goal to strive for, IMO.  Who would want to be there when they are promised something better----to be able to finally, belong totally to God, to be in His very presence...?

  26. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    i agree. outer court is not the best.
    But accordingly, His will is that none would perish, but all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Send Y`shua to be the testimony of that will and fulfill it.
    Promised to pour out His spirit upon all humans so that none could say -oops, i didn't know.

    Thus all are saved -by Him. Which is that Great Grace.
    Now the choice to believe is theirs.

    i do believe that those who do blaspheme the Spirit -that is to say there is no Creator- having that spirit poured on them- will be destroyed, yes. It is the only unforgivable sin.

  27. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    How do you reconcile that view with your definition of being born again (which equals to being saved)?

  28. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    easy.
    i chose to serve Him as His, believing on Him who died and now gives me Abundant life/Eternal life here and now.
    his Spirit born in me, a new creation.

    He now judges me by works of faith, not laws of moral consciousness (sin). When I am before Him and He judges my deeds, I will either have a pile of jewels or a pile of ash.

    saved -not as in 'needing salvation'
    saved is 'being salvation', accepting the truth of Y`shua, accepting the free gift, accepting the fullness of the Spirit -the gift: love and all things that pertain to Eternal Life and godliness.

  29. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    You're a universalist?

    Again, what good is the challenge to serve Him or not,  if everyone is gonna be saved anyway?  Lazy people would live like "hell" here and still inherit the "outer court".....


    ...I interpret the reference to jewels as saved people becoming His jewels.

    I know other people who, like you, believe that God wouldn't let anyone go to hell.   But where is the authority of His judgement in that interpretation?

  30. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    sin and death [hell] have been swallowed up by salvation.
    so, where would they go?

    the only place is the lake of fire, with the fallen angels.


    no offense, again with titles. Universalism is a new age concept, so no i would not be one.

    smile

    1. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry if I offended you.  It was in the form of a question; thanks for answering.

      Well....that still doesn't answer the question of hell.

      The Bible does mention everlasting torment, etc.  in reference to nonbelievers, not just the fallen angels...
      I'm gonna refresh my memory by looking up some of those passages.

      See ya later hopefully.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        indeed. if not today, tomorrow then.
        enjoy the day!

        1. 0
          Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          ........



          Revelation 21: 7 and 8:

          "He that overcometh shall inherit all things;  and I will be his God,  and he shall be my son.
          BUT the fearful, and unbelieving,  and the abominable,  and murderers, and whoremongers,  and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone;  which is the second death."

          This is the same "lake" of "fire" which Scripture says is everlasting.   Matthew 25: 46 also tells us that "these shall go away into everlasting punishment;...."  (He's talking about, coincidentally, the subject that Q keeps bringing up, about neglecting to minister to the needy, with the second meaning also of those who don't minister to the Lord), so there's a couple of answers to both your views and Q's..)


          The first quote also shows the division God makes between sinners and His children.

          So....tell me, Twenty One Days,  how is it that you don't believe in hell (or, eternal punishment in the lake of fire anyway)?
          Those Scriptures are very clear, at least to me.

          ...Is there some supposition that the sinner's "part" in the lake of fire is temporal?  That God will send a sinner there and then rescue him later and let him reside in "the outer court"?
          I don't see it.

          1. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            First, many thanks on the ch.ve.

            First things first the Matthew reference, which is before the resurrection:
            -in reference to the lake of fire, Y`shua states that those before the Sacrifice for that salvation offered to all man, those from Adam to He would face not only the first death but also the second along with Lucifer and the angelic beings who sided with him. At the descending, all souls where told the Truth. Those who believed were lifted up, this is the first resurrection & those who did not receive, because they lived/died under the law -yet refused to accept the gift of salvation, cannot be reborn to receive that salvation (born of water/spirit). So they are cast into the lake with those angels.
            In the Revealing of Y`shua Moschiach ("the book of revelation"; rev 1:1), John sees this with much clarity.

            There is no mention of Hell/Hades as a place of reckoning under the New Covenant. For such a place was controlled by Lucifer, who is no more, for -forgive my paraphrasing- Y`shua has "swallowed up death and Hell"; "I have the keys of hell and of death." (Rev 1:18) "Behold I make all things new (rev 21). "All things have passed away, all things have become new"; "I give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven" ;

            Paul also says this. So if Paul -who was after Him- says all things are new and John, who before Him, with Him and there at His death/resurrection/ascension, as well as, after Him says all things are new. And Y`shua Himself fulfilled ALL LAW AND PROPHECY, this vision of John is to prove the works of Christ.

            It should also be noted that when the spirit came at "pentecost" the Spirit now dwells with man (rev 21).
            Thus, Hell is no more. All have been given the gift of salvation. All men saved by Him and Him alone, lest any man should boast in himself and say he has saved himself and is equal to God.

            For this is the unforgivable sin: blasphemy against the Spirit.

            i think that about covers it.

  31. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    This is crazy talk! If I was born in some poor country because that is where my parents were born what possible religious explanation would make sense.
    If little ones are born in the wrong country they suffer. Got nothing to do with their beliefs!
    Being "saved" seems to be a matter of being lucky enough to be literate and have a full belly.
    What a disgusting pile! lol

    1. Valerie F profile image60
      Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      It is, Earnest. The problem is that this "disgusting pile" is not Scriptural and not Christian.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Valerie. I know you do not like to see quotes from the old testament, but this is the sort of crud that is in the bible. Is this not scripture?

           Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD's judgment has come.  The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners.  "On that day of judgment," says the LORD, "I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs.  Yes, I will punish those who participate in pagan worship ceremonies, and those who steal and kill to fill their masters' homes with loot.  "On that day," says the LORD, "a cry of alarm will come from the Fish Gate and echo throughout the newer Mishneh section of the city. And a great crashing sound will come from the surrounding hills.  Wail in sorrow, all you who live in the market area, for all who buy and sell there will die.  "I will search with lanterns in Jerusalem's darkest corners to find and punish those who sit contented in their sins, indifferent to the LORD, thinking he will do nothing at all to them.  They are the very ones whose property will be plundered by the enemy, whose homes will be ransacked.  They will never have a chance to live in the new homes they have built.  They will never drink wine from the vineyards they have planted.  "That terrible day of the LORD is near.  Swiftly it comes – a day when strong men will cry bitterly.  It is a day when the LORD's anger will be poured out.  It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness, trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements!  "Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path.  Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground."  Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD's anger.  For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy.  He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth.   (Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT)

        1. Valerie F profile image60
          Valerie Fposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          People who never heard of God cannot be justly accused of being, and I'm quoting here, "content in their sins, indifferent to the Lord, thinking He will do nothing at all to them."

          Scripture is useless if people like you keep quoting it out of context.

          1. 61
            (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            It is useless if it can be so easily taken out of context. Of course, you'd have to explain why there are so many Christian sects to support that argument, as well.

  32. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    The best advice that I could give any believer that reads their bible is to read a KJV of the bible open to the 9th chapter of the book of Daniel....  And try to read it like you have never before even heard about "THE  BIBLE". 
        And remember that the year described in the first verse is declaring this to be 506 BC that this story begins.

       And the best advice that any Believer could  TAKE  is to read and understand this Chapter.

        And may God Bless You All..
         I

  33. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    Just thinkin out loud again...   What if there is a dozen people on the beach front.   You can see two Islands out there in tha distance. No make that three islands....
       There are three boats pull up to the dock. Everyone can go to whichever island they want to.
       Which ever One I get on, I'm goina tell myself that it is going to heaven.  And it will be for,..  me....   
                It's what I'm goina make it be.
       You will be much happier on the other one cause you like loud music and stuff ; more than we do on our island.
        Now you go over there   ....  to hell.
        ...........
       And you can be thinking the same thing;  back at me.

       Wouldn't that be nice....
       Wish it was.  ??
       Could it  ??

    1. Tom Cornett profile image58
      Tom Cornettposted 6 years ago in reply to this
      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

           Don't know if it is..........   
          but that is the one I'd like to go to.

    2. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Impossible.
      Because, you see, Christians care very much about which boat others are on.  The Christian would be tryin' to haul the other boats back with a lasso or whatever they could use to GET THOSE SINNERS pointed toward Salvation!

      Plus, God doesn't "trick us". 
      He gives us each a conscience and enough knowledge to know the score, to not be duped into thinking we're saved if we're not.

  34. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Confusing.
    I know of no Christian who'd think he had saved himself.....
    I know of Christians including myself who know we have a clear choice to either accept or refuse the gift of Salvation.


    The subject of Salvation is simple and clear.
    The Way is narrow but clear, and Jesus clearly defined it.
    We are back to the original subject of this thread.
    Ye must be born again.  Ye must Love Christ and recognize Him as the Son of God and the God that He is.

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "not of works, lest any man should boast"

      "we healed in your name, fed the hungry, made the blind see...he replied, i don't know you go away" (paraphrasing).

    2. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      born of water AND spirit. any man who denies the Spirit cannot enter the kingdon of Heaven -which is in your heart.

      Loving Christ : it is not the anointing we should love. For what is the command: love your neighbor as yourself. For if He dwells in you, you dwell in Him and the fullness of the Spirit rests upon you. Thus, you love your neighbor without fear, as you love yourself -Him dwelling in you. For if any hates his neighbor, the love -dwelling of the Spirit- is not in him. So then, this man is not known to God, for He dwells with spirit. Therefore, this man cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.

      For i tell you a secret, we shall not all die...for that Spirit who was with Enoch, a man of faith and Elijah, a prophet of God, dwells in the hearts OF ALL who will receive Him freely. Even as freely as the Son of Man laid down his life for all men. Even still, should we sleep, we know that He who holds the power of life and death shall always be with us. For the hard-of-heart, the unbelieving, this is their burning conscious all day long. Knowing that He gave his life, yet they refuse Him. For the believer, this is their great grace and fullness of joy.

  35. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    sidebar notation:

    it is also mentioned in rev (4:10) that the 24 elders were before the throne of the Lamb. Who are these 24? They are BOTH the tribes of Isra`El and the 12 Disciples (figuratively).

    additionally, there is NO mention of a 'great tribulation' going to happen post Ascension which 99% of believers are told is going to happen. If you find it in Revelations, i will eat my hat.

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

         I'll match that hat; and rase two more saying that you are absolutely correct.

  36. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    The challenge is ON.
    Buy yourselves lotsa alka-seltzer.
    haha

  37. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    I'm half-teasing.
    Still, interesting.
    We'll see...

  38. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    If ya want to read Revelations you also will not find anything about The temple in Jerusalem being rebuilt again.

       There lots of misconceptions such as these.

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      3 hats in!
      I'm with you.

      it escapes me how easily the multitudes are swayed.
      even the elect of heaven.
      na`mean?

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I know what ya mean.

          kinda like listened to the hounds run a fox at night?

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            If anyone has ever listened to the hounds run at night would know that this was is not an insult.
               They would know what I mean.

            1. 0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              i know. they are noisy little buggers -especially at night!

  39. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Ah, but those days shall be shortened so that the elect will not be deceived.

    And that's another whole subject of discussion and cause of debate as to who the elect are.   I see it in simple terms, but have often argued with friends about "the elect".

    hmmm
    as much as I'd like to see you two guys eat your hats TONIGHT,  I've got to go.   I'll give it my best shot another time.  big_smile

    1. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      We are not suppose to take away or add to the word to prove a point. You don't even give scripture book.

      That's not what it says. It says those DAYS shall be shortened for the elects SAKE. It does not say those days will be shortened for the elect.  The Days will be shortened. PERIOD. meaning the days of tribulation will be shortened and over with.
      Matthew 24:22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
      And what about this one?
      Matthew 24:29,31
      IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
      And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

      And to be smug the way you are being..do you have a hat?

  40. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    Will do, love.
    enjoy the day!

  41. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    Fox  Hounds     I went on a couple a trips when I was young; living up in the foot hills. (Around 1964) Some of the neighbors had a couple of fox hounds.
    He would turn them loose, and when they get on a trail that old farmer would get in his truck; driving maybe fifty miles before the night was over. The sounds of the chase would move too far to hear, so he would drive around to tha other side and wait for them to come around, and he would just listen to them run.
      By midnight he would know which fox the hounds were chaseing, and already know where he was going to be parked about 4:00AM.listening for them to come over that last hill before he would drive back home.
        A long night and a bottle of wiskey to keep him warm.

          He often said that this was his church. 
    Who am I to say what he was feeling and thinking?

  42. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Twenty One Days and Jerami,

    You guys are saved saved, saved, I tell ya, saved from the horror of eating your hats! wink
    It isn't that I give up totally;  just that I'm too tired and haven't had the opportunity to research Revelation about the question.
    Plus, Revelation to me has always been a dream-like sequence, a "movie", if you will, of events that are mostly Spiritual.  I see about 90% of Revelation as symbolic.   For instance, Jesus supposedly returns on a horse.   I say what need would God have for riding a horse?  and etc and etc.     And indeed all the "scholarly" people and apologists that I've had occasion to listen to, cannot themselves agree on much of Revelation.

    I must at this time keep it very simple, as I usually do.   
    The main thing is something Jesus said (and He changes not!) and I'll stick to the pure simplicity of it----

    Ye must be born again!

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Sorry it has taken so long to respond... been a lota stuff goin on.  Hope all is well with you all. 
         There are many things that people believe are biblical but is not. 
        Revelation is impossible to understand until we realize that it is the sequel to the book of Daniel.
         After many years of attempting to "Uninterpreted" these prophesy...I believe that The book of Daniel is prophesy that 99% of; covers events that happened from 605 BC until around 138 AD.
         The book of Revelation is visions that overlaps some of the prophesy as stated in Daniel and prophesy for things that must come soon,, for the time is at hand ..
        The prophesy as stated in the book of Revelation began unfolding in 96 AD, when John received these prophesy and have been unfolding ever since.
         People mistakenly combine these two books. Mixing them together and stirring vigorously.They are two independent stories.
         All of prophesy has been fulfilled except for the sounding of the seventh seal and the pouring out of the seventh vial judgment.

  43. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    Like me! smile

  44. 0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Like you what, earnest?

    Don't tease me now.

    Please elaborate.

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      A born again Christian of course!

      1. 0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You mean in the past?

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes. smile

          1. 0
            Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You know I was hoping you'd say you'd recently come back to your first Love (the Lord)....

            anyway, good night earnest.  It's way past this old gal's bedtime.

            1. earnestshub profile image87
              earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Goodnight Brenda. Have a peaceful rest. smile

          2. Hokey profile image59
            Hokeyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I'm Buddhist. I've been "born again many, many, many, many times. So maybe he has too.

            1. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              lol
              I'm so glad I'm sleepy.
              I don't even wanna get started responding to that.

              1. Hokey profile image59
                Hokeyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Goodnight Brenda. Namaste

    2. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

      Thanks earnest.

    3. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

      Just saw this, Jerami.
      Thanks;  interesting....

    4. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago

      Hay Brenda; how are you today?  Fine I hope.
        I think I should have said in that previous post that this is only an opinion cause it is mine.
        I do firmly believe that these two books of prophesy are two entirely diffrent sets of prophesy. And to see them as such will clear up a lot of misconceptions.

    5. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago

      From The KJV Christian Bible:
      1. Not everyone has to repent. Mark 2:17."When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

      2. We have to think differently..we have to renew the mind.
      Romans 12
      2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
      1-21..The rest of this chapter tells us how we should think and treat others. With Love (Love is the Law)

      3. We are suppose to think like YahShua (Christ)and he thought it wasn't robbery to make himself equal to God..he knew he was divine and we are suppose to know this about ourselves
      Philippians 2
      5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
      6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

      4. We are to stop condemning ourselves and others for what we/they do. We are to have faith that we are OK.
      Romans 14:2-23
      For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
      Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
      One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
      For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
      Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
      And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin


      5. It says to be baptized in water..is to be emerged in water as an outward rite showing we see ourselves as clean.
      Matthew 3
      6. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
      8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
      11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
      13. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him
      14. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
      15. And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

    6. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

      Deborah,
      The Word also says there's none righteous and that all have sinned.   Look at verses 19 and 20 of that chapter in Mark you quoted.    Jesus was explaining that the "children of the bridegroom" were in the presence of the Lord (Himself) while He was literally living with them, walking beside them, so in effect they were covered by that fact.   Look at the later verse where it says they will fast after He's gone.....
      So, to say that not everyone has to repent is a fallacy.

      I agree with you on your point #4, and the passages about water baptism being an outward symbol of salvation.

      1. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That's because of the wrong transliteration. Death and hell will be done away with.

      2. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Brenda..that has to do with his disciples fasting and has nothing to do with repentance. It was a whole new subject.

      3. 0
        Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Brenda..that has to do with his disciples fasting and has nothing to do with repentance. It was a whole new subject.


        The part where you say none is righteous. .this is for those who thought because they had the word of God, they had it all and was better than others and did not need faith. .  If NONE were righteous. .that would mean Jesus and all the prophets of old weren't. It describes people as righteous in the old and new testament. Simply it means all flesh needs God. Taking a few words can really distort the meaning. You have to look at it as a whole.

        In Romans 3 Paul first addresses the possible false interpretation of what he just said, making it clear that we are not to think we can sin so that God can show his righteousness. Paul makes it clear that man's evil deeds are worthy of punishment and do not cancel His right to judge the world. He gives himself as an example (verse 7) of someone who faces God's judgment due to his own sin.

        Paul was accused of teaching against Torah - a charge he vehemently denied both here and in Acts 21:21-27. (Our background material discussed Paul's faithful Torah observance as a rabbi and Pharisee.) Although Peter warned that Paul's teachings were at such a high level that many would misunderstand what he was saying (2 Peter 3:16), there is also a probability here that these were men opposed to Paul, who were lying and speaking evil of him. Paul will bring up the subject of Torah and sin again, in verses 5:20-6:1.

        Romans 3:9 is one of the more blatant cases of poor Scripture translation found in the Bible. First of all, the question is not if the Jews are "better" than gentiles (as the King James translation would have you think), but if they have "an advantage" in some way (see verse 9 below). More importantly, the answer to Paul's question, "No, in no wise," is an incorrect translation of the Greek ou pantos, which means, "not entirely."

        Paul makes it clear that if the Jews whom the Torah "speaks to" (those that do and hear) are facing judgment, then those who do not share this benefit (the rest of the world), are no better off, hence, every mouth is stopped (shut up).


        Although the Jews have the real advantage of the Torah, both they and gentiles sin and face judgment (as Paul showed in chapters 1 and 2). Judgment however, comes to the Jew first and then to the gentile as they are judged at different levels. (To whom much is given, much is expected.)
        God's Torah is Holy, and its commandments are to be followed, as it is the path He has given us to learn of Him and to salvation. Scripture paints a beautiful pattern:

    7. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

      For Twenty One Days and Jerami and anyone else who said no one will go to eternal punishment.....


      Revelation 20: 15.

      1. TheGlassSpider profile image80
        TheGlassSpiderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Learn Hebrew and Greek...read the book in its original languages...let go of the blasphemy you've been taught...then get back to us on that verse.

      2. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I do not recall saying that there would not be an eternal punishment or that there would be.  I would have to question the definition of what exactly that punishment would be.
           As I mentioned in another thread earlier I believe that Good and Evil made a compromise in 326 at the council of Nicaea when universal Religion was born.
           There is much truth in the bible as we know it, but it takes but a little untruth, and exclusion of pertinent scripture to derail the intended message.

        1. qwark profile image61
          qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Jerami:
          Truth defined is: "...the "real" (not artificial; genuine)state of things.
          Pls tell me how you know: "There is much truth in the bible?"
          Clear this up for me will ya? Thanks.
          oh, and while yer at that, pls offer the scripture that defines this god thing factually. Not in terms of opinion or conjecture..ok? deal?
          Thanks...:-)

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I must say that the following is only an opinion..

              You know that there is no way for me to convince you that there is proof of anything that you do not want to believe.
             
            In reality you are unable to prove to me that I truly exist.
              There is no proof that You are not the center of your own universe and I am but figment of your imagination.
               Any and all proof that you may present would also be a creation of your imagination as I am.
               So.. Is there any absolute proof that Proof actually ever existed?

               I confess that you caught me not adding a disclaimer to my earlier post. Does everyone actually have to say that this is only an opinion every time they express an opinion.? Because after all most every post is but an opinion.
               In my opinion there is much truth in the bible but it has been contaminated with omissions, a few mistranslations, and obliterated by too many misinterpretations.

               Sorry...I know I didn't answer your question... cause I know that would be imposible.

            1. qwark profile image61
              qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Jerami:
              Thanks for being honest.
              I don't ask for proofs of this god thing. That would be folly. I don't know what this "god" thing is. Nor do you or any other living creature.
              No scripture in any of the 3 major monotheisms factually defines this god thing. "It" is mentioned but never defined in any other than forms of "opinion."
              "It" is therefore existing only in the imaginations of those who HOPE "it" is.
              That is why WE who don't know, can only deny the concept of this thing you refer to as "god."
              Until "it" can be factually defined, we have no other choice.

              1. mohitmisra profile image60
                mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                God is mentioned as a divine light by the scriptures.

     
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