Didn't jesus alledgedly say: "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’" [John 3:3]"
What happens to all the millions of good folks who lived thousands of years before jesus and those who exist today who never heard of him and his alledged purpose?
What about illiterates who can't read?
What about the mentally challenged who can't understand such things? ...on and on and on.
They have to ride the 'Star Goat'...
Being born again is finding that Spirit of Christ.
As oppose to boasting about Jesus and bible.
That Spirit is available to all with logical mind who can discern good from evil.
That also means that since the begining of time The Spirit has been around, infact that is by the same Spirit who cause each and every person to have a consciousness of themselves.
As long as one abide by this Spirit he is born again, all outward religious patterns of baptism, confession, church going, good deeds are useless and irrelevant unless that Spirit is present.
To some that Spirit is very tangible and easy to follow for that SPIRIT is Truth, others may not have that tangibility but their conscience keep them abreast.
I tell you the truth though, the large portion of those who boast in being born again have no clue as to the true nature of salvation for they are steeped in the false religion of christianity.
The explanation is simple.
Contrary to popular belief, not everyone is going to heaven, nor does everyone want to. That is for a particular group of people who truly want to become God-like, more than human.
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away..." Revelation 21, 1.
Remember, Jesus also spoke about a multitude of people who would "inherit the earth." He is speaking of the "new earth." That's MOST people, and Jesus' death (trading himself for Adam, the originator of sin) has ALREADY paid for everyone's second chance (the resurrections). It's already a done deal, and you don't have to do anything now to be a part of the gift. You don't even have to believe it now. When the time comes to complete creation (b/c it's still in the process of being made) "every eye shall see him."
The people who become totally spiritual creatures, who follow completely in Jesus' footsteps are the ones who are going to heaven to rule (we only need so many governors, and they need people to govern). The meek, the peacemakers...etc. other people who do not do the work to become part of the heavenly class will live upon the perfected earth.
Also Jesus and God understand people as they are; His judgment is righteous he can understand someone's inner "works." Reading the book, joining a church, knowing "Jesus'" name (that's not even REALLY his name, anyway) makes no difference. Proverbs tells us that "wisdom crieth from the streets." Therefore, people are capable of knowing God's laws without ever having entered a Western-style church (indeed, IMO, they'd do better to stay away from them).
God's laws are good in and of themselves, not because He said so...Thus, they are discernible and understandable without the Bible.
excellent translation of Revelations.
i just did a 'class' on it with some friends.
someone yesterday mentioned churches, bibles, verses, etc and His name, which i think he got offended when i refused to call myself a christian or evoke 'Jesus' over and over. since He has a name only he knows above all names...
Interesting questions. However, I am of the understanding that people wouldn't want to really know. They rather assume their entitled, for whatever reason.
But, I give you props on the question.
I hope you find your answer.
Man has gained enlightenment long before Jesus spoke these words, the prophets come to re iterate the truth in the language of their times.
Its is in the literal sense of dying and reborn that one know god or the light or the kingdom of god.
Many illiterates with simple thinking have had this experience.take the master Muahmmad , Kabir they didnt have book knowledge.
i always say if the Bible really was a holy book written by God he wouldn't have needed earthly humans to transcribe it or distribute it. the Word would have just materialized on every doorstep on earth in whatever language of the prevailing country and its pages would be made of some material that couldn't be torn or fade and it would have moving pictures and sound in it, then people would know God made it.
if we laughed at Science we'd still be in the dark ages.
as if! ....we are not in the `dark age` still...
And your idea of a perfect God is an overindulgent parent who gives everything to us on a silver platter and doesn't expect us to work for anything or figure anything out on our own.
"the Word would have just materialized on every doorstep on earth in whatever language of the prevailing country and its pages would be made of some material that couldn't be torn or fade and it would have moving pictures and sound in it, then people would know God made it."
Sounds like an iPad
Even the dead shall be taught. All shall be judged according to their deeds but live according to the spirit. In other words the only true mercy and justice of God would be for all to be judged by their own works in conjunction with the common knowledge of the Spirit. Some are taught in life. Many more are now being taught and will yet be taught in the realm of spirits. We don't just sit and rot in this realm. There is much work performed there as there is here in life. This truth of doctrine, to me, is the miracle of the universal mercy and justice of God. He is not a respector of persons but looks upon the heart and mind of all with common love.
So, how does that work for starving children? What deeds can they be judged other than looking for some food to eat? Why would a god judge them anyways after watching them starve to death? Shouldn't the god be judged for cruelty?
Children are not judged by laws, Q. Don't be silly.
Those who had a paycheck or even one last coin and withhold it when another human, child or not, is hungry shall be judged.
God cannot be judged because of man Free Will action or inaction.
Can I judge you as a murderer if your son chooses to kill another man? Are you at fault or is he for his action?
I'm requesting a hub from you. I wanna know what's behind your persistent focus on the plight of poverty while ignoring the other truths. It's obviously something that consumes your thoughts. Will you be so kind as to write one? I find your focus very interesting.
Mam, you are very kind and polite and if it is your sincere request for me to do so I will have one published by the end of the week. I have a deep belief in these things. There are doctrines of life and death that cannot be briefly explained on a post. I do thoroughly believe that all life is equal for we are all different and have accepted different missions. Yet, for me, the great miracle is that with all the differences we all are promised the same glories and potentials. When we cannot see beyond the injustices of this world we dim our sights on eternal perspectives. It is these perspectives that matter beyond that which we see everyday. The power is ours to change our little world. It is the gift of agency that He has given us.
If it is requested I will gladly publish a hub according to your request.
My bad Brenda, your request was for Q. Sorry for the misunderstanding. This format can be confusing.
No need to apologize, goldenpath! Yes this forum and format can be confusing!
I'm only mad at you 'cause you called me "mam" in your other post. That makes me feel old and it was TOTALLY un-called-for!
Teehee I'm TEASING! I'm no Barbara Boxer who takes offense at stuff like that; matter of fact, being called "mam" is a word of respect in my book. Thank you for being nice and kind. Just wanted to get ya goin' there with that response. Hey I'd be willing to read a hub of yours; might do that here soon too.
Brenda, if you haven't figured out the rationale yet, no amount of hubs written on my part will ever get through to you.
The focus is on the hypocrisy of Christians. Haven't I made that clear, yet?
It is entirely possible that they were among the most valiant of souls in the pre-existence as were the infants who die in this world. If that's the case their salvation is all but asured them. They only needed to gain a physical body in this life and their mortal mission was probably primarily for purpose of the rest of us. For them the journey is long while starving in this life. I agree. However, in death they now have a recollection of their valiance and mission and given that knowledge their mortal journey seems as quick as a twinkle in the eye.
This is part of what makes it all fair. In most cases it is the rest of us of "normal" society and condition who have to prove themselves and not so much the dying infants or starving men, women and children with little knowledge or means.
While I got sick to my stomach and threw up reading that, I wonder if you actually have any compassion for people other than yourself. Clearly, religion has twisted your mind to the point of you justifying and insulting the dying and the dead who starved while you remained fat and joyous.
It is this type of mindset that will see the destruction of all mankind. If an evil exists on this planet, you encapsulate it all, sir.
You know, I got banned for saying much less. Why do you insist on insulting people and then complain when they engage you?
I stated the obvious. You just told a kind man his post made you throw up and started harping about his twisted mind encapsulating all that is evil....Maybe you woke up happy?
I see you still haven't sold your computer to feed a few starving children. I wonder why you preach so much about them but yet do nothing that is in your power to help the situation.
I see Jesus is still allowing thousands of children to starve to death every day while he attends to your every whim. You must really love that guy for all he does for you.
Shouldn't praying to Jesus solve the problem? If not, why not?
Our praying to Jesus about starving children is the very reason you are so adamant about the plight of those children....you just aren't listening deeply enough to what He is calling you to do....anytime something is as heavy on your heart as this issue is on yours, you can rest assured that God has anointed you to do something about it....
You are angry at Jesus because you say He isn't doing anything about it; but He is doing something. He is tugging on your heart and trying to use you to be His hands and feet of compassion....
Trust me....You are called to the mission field.....God wants to use you.....
No, I'm aghast at Christians who believe Jesus does things for them and ignores starving children. I think I've explained that about a thousand times now, but many still ignore that simple concept.
Please don't direct your mythical nonsense at me. I don't accept the superstitions of the Bronze age as you do.
Q, you are completely disregarding the fact that there are hundreds of Christian ministries that daily go into the field to do something about the starving children around the world. The only reason that they do so is because of the Jesus' call on their lives to meet a need that is only growing in thie world because of man's selfishness. If every person in the world gave or got involved with as much energy as they expend on complaining about nobody doing anything ... we wouldn't have a problem.
Hey Precious Pearl, believe it or not, people don't go out in that field, because of Jesus' teachings, they go out in that field for selfish reasons, which are tied to their belief of Jesus' work.
If these people didn't believe in Jesus' work would they still do what they do? Probably not.
Just a thought.
No offense, you have a knack for telling people what other people do or do not do/should or should not do.
So...Why not put that energy to good use and show/explain/teach them Y`shua true teaching. Makes more sense, would end much quarreling and remove the stumbling block of 'organized theology', as well as 'rhetorical scientific methods'.
just a consideration, my friend...
Ok... no offense but that is ridiculous ... you are saying that people that go into ministry and serve the hungry, starving children do it out of selfishness?
We are His hands and feet in the earth. If you took away the ministries that are out there doing something about the starving children ... more starving children would die ...
You can't have it both ways .. either we are accomplishing much or as you believe nothing.
And I would ask, what are you doing to help the starving children? You sure seem to waste a lot of time condemning those who are doing something.
Hi Precious, nice to 'meet you'.
Ministry is specifically for the poor, widow, orphan.
but collectively, yes, its all about the donations & pride of saying 'look we did it'. There is no silent humility.
The 1st century believers shared ALL THINGS in common, therefore removing this obstacle and showing unity. Slowly that changed over time. Even today it is challenging to find a ministry or single person of a ministry who would literally give away their house, money, processions without hesitation to fulfill the need of another. so I sympathize with his belief. It doesn't excuse his selfishness either...
Nice to meet you as well ... Please understand that I am not ignorant to the fact that even among those that call themselves Christians there are those that do things out of selfishness but we must not negate the fact that there are also those that sacrifice every day ... selling all that they have and going into the field for no other reason than the call of Jesus. They gain nothing ... and often are told that they are crazy to sell all that they have to serve in such a manner. Does it happen as often as it should, probably not ... but it still does happen ... and Yes, it should happen even more but as we all know ... we live in a society of narcissistic, self-absorbed, selfish people ...Christians, Atheist, Agnostic ... whatever you call yourself ... we all have our flaws.
Then, why doesn't Jesus feed them?
The condemned are those who pretend their Jesus helps them while others starve to death. When will your Jesus hear the pleas of those who will starve to death today, tomorrow...
We wouldn't have a problem if your Jesus stopped paying so much attention to you Christians asinine prayers and got off his bony butt and did something about the starving children, yes?
You have freedom of choice. You choose to crow about starving children while refusing to do anything about it. Doesn't this make you a hypocrite?
Q, why would YOU pray TO 'Jesus'. One must believe there is someone there to answer if one prays. Asking such questions shows -in some manner, you DO believe in Him, despite your conjecture & contradictory tone.
Leslie is correct, you are running from your calling.
Do you question the mysterious ways of God our Saviour? It's impossible to us but not to Him...
Abraham lived before Jesus yet Jesus mentioned him living so many times (because of his faith) and concerning the others you mentioned, don't be so narrow, just accept some things remain unknown to people (that doesn't mean they don't happen)...
The Father and the Son knew these conditions would exist and made plans for such. Through vicarious work, which is taking place now, the ordinance of baptism is extended to even the dead to accept or reject upon their agency to choose.
qwark, just one small thing here. In Timothy, it talks about how Christ went down to hell and releases all the faithful before him. And, how they were sent to heaven accordingly. Just a side note to one of your questions about what happened to the ones before him.
That is what I been trying to talk about since I been on here. Old Testament prophesy was for and to that Hebrew Nation that those prophets were talking to. That Nation ceased to exist around 138 AD.
We been living during the time of the New testament prophesy ever since. It aint in the future. It has been fulfilling itself ever since that Nation ceased to be.
I think we are on the same wave length, still however, I am literally speaking of a scripture in the bible that tell us Christ released all those who can before him, from the pits of hell. It is one of the few times, that hell is actually referred to as an actually place of existence.
Do we still coincide? I mean, I don't know. I just wanted Qwark to know that the answer to that particular question, was answered in the bible.
I think that many questions that we ask can be answered in the bible after we dig through three feet of false interpretations that have been piled up on top of them.
The rest of the answere were not included in the cannon.
Oh yes, I am the first to agree with that sentiment. In it's entirety. I also believe that many of our religious questions, have already been answered- just in another voice or religious belief.
So much can be learned by combining other faiths, and what we know of them.
I agree. I've always exhorted over the pulpit to always seek the good in all people and faiths for many faiths have pieces of the puzzle. Through the spirit, discernment and sound judgement we are to utilize our agency to choose those points for ourselves according to what feels right.
I glad that is the word you preach.
Only pride prompts one to say "I have all answers and you have nothing". It is wrong and inconsistent with tolerance and understanding. We should be at least open to other views and ideas even at least for the sake of gaining knowledge of other points of views in the world. Only through knowledge can we correctly discern answers for ourselves. Also, we should always frame up against those answers future points of views and discoveries that we may come across.
The renting of pride frees us from living inside a box with only mirrors for our company. Strive to "see" and understand beyond those walls.
I remember when I first found out that there was a such thing as a computer. About a 1/2 a century ago that somebody needs to develop a system to program all the info about theism into the program and see what the commonalities were.
1/2 a century later nobody has done it yet that I know about.
From my earliest years; as long as I can remember I have known that there is some kind of intelligent force that has influenced my life. Church gave it a name, said it was "GOD"
OK... They taught me (John 3:16) And the song "Jesus loves the little children .. all the children of the world...."
I agree with all of that but the rest didn't ever all up.
I believe in Jesus and the Father ... but I don't know ??
I may be buddhist, Hindu, and maybe a little Islam.
Mainly the God of Abraham... Maybe the Buddhist and Hindu don't know about the Abraham part, don't mean that One father don't have more children than I know about.
For the Jewish people and the covenant such as it was... Jesus is the only way to the father???
I remember as a grade school er... some kids got to skip a few grades I had to go a diffrent path???
The only thing that I know is those things that I have felt and experienced my whole life. Everything else is the best educated guess that I can figure with I got to figure with.
You're an idiot? An imbecile? A doltish being? Hey, it is never too late to turn it around. Just think, I'm totally mentally challenged and have made it this far; you can do it, Jerami! Ha-ha!
Consider that the word "hell" comes from the Hebrew word for "the grave." I suspect when it says he releases those before Him that it means he releases them from death (the pit of the grave)--in other words, they died before Him but will live again.
Have ya studied the history of the OT?
It doesn't seem to me that ya have.
You read it and quote it as tho it's credible.
Both the OT and the NT have undergone so many interpretations and re-interpretations in oh so many languages....and...during the 1000 yrs of the dark ages the Roman catholics burned almost all books and parchments that they disagreed with that there's really nothing to believe in in it..
Then in 1611 King James and his chosen ecclesiastics decided, hell, why don't we write it to suit our needs.
So ya see, Intimat, if ya study the history of the 3 major contemporary monotheisms, the only logical conclusion is that people who believe in "bull shit"...haven't done their homework and are just easily led followers...it's as simple as that. :-)
Thanks tho for the reply..:-)
I'm sorry. Did you just call me a bitch???
See to me, it appears that you just did.
Nope, it is "snoop dog" slang in America; a compliment, if you will.
I live in Missouri. However, little old for Snoop. Thanks for clarifying however. Cheers.
Okay, yo, chick/gal/babe: Holla-holla! How's that for contemporary speech?
Greetings! Finally, someone in my neighborhood. I'm in southwest Iowa. Although, Iowa is still Iowa...
I wouldn't consider that a compliment. But that's just me.
This maxim does not belong to Jesus or to Christianity. It does not even belong to religion, because it's part of the teaching of a primordial tradition that had come to be well before there were religions. Look up the word 'palingenesis'.
if i may.
1. the one's before: he descended into the 'Pit' and proclaimed the Word to them. all from Adam to Moses, Moses to Christ heard. Those who believed took part in the 1st resurrection.
2. reading is irrelevant. The book only is an inspiration and profitable for knowledge, wisdom, etc to be used via spirit for understanding. so whether or not they could read does not make a difference. most people were in fact illiterate.
3. those who cannot understand the truth or have never been told of Him, salvation cannot be held accountable. (i.e. if you fell into a hole that you never knew was there, you cannot be blamed for it).
sidebar note: 'born-again' does NOT mean you joined the church or a religion. the confession or social proof of your belief in Him was displayed by water baptism.
the first is water: when you are born of your mother you are born of water. second is spirit: when you are born of spirit, the anointing, Grace/Spirit of Him is re-ignited in you and by walking with the Spirit you are led into all truth. You are no longer judged by sin, but by the works of faith. You are considered to be in 'right standing' / righteous in His eyes and once again.
in addition, salvation has been given to everyone -believer or not. they must either accept the gift freely or reject it freely.
Do you dare challenge the words of your jesus?
‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Regardless of your opinions regarding that which you just offered, your "savior" jesus christ, alledgedly made a very affirmative statment.
You can tapdance around the barn and try to intepret scripture to fit your needs, but to one who understands english, his alledged words represent an absolute.
Is it no wonder that worldwide there exist close to 40k differing protestant sects, each interpreting scripture to suit it's needs.
You are just following suit..:-)
your spelling and grammar st!nk quark.
it is an absolute. born of water & spirit.
YOU might want to read the whole passage.
apparently, the folks of old were not the only illiterate it seems
I do not recall Jesus defining "Born again" Except for saying "to be born again of the spirit".
If you have a biblical answer to that I would appreciate hearing it.
the passage states:
you must be born again.
the man asked him how is this possible to be born if i am already born. Y`shua said -emphatically- I tell you the truth, unless you are born of water AND spirit you cannot enter.
the first birth is human, the second is spirit
where is the need for further characterization? It is a statement of fact.
Your thinking is hysterical to me...why are you beating around the bush? You should just say,"Christians, I don't care what you say or how you explain the answers that you offer for my questions. I am still going to believe what I believe."
You know the only reason that you asked the questions that you did is so you could get into an argument and flaunt your anger....
The most interesting thing is how self-deceived you are...Do you really think that you can cause a believer to renounce Christ based on your "hear say" explanations....that ain't happening...
Just keep on....you are giving believers a lot to pray about...your name is in every saved Hubbers prayer basket. It won't be long beforeyou will cry out "Abba Father
Has it been given to the starving children rather than food? I'm sure they appreciate it as their bodies rot on the streets.
here, you forgot your paycheck, Q. might want to erase the hypocrite label off the front, its very noticeable.
If all religions and atheists alike would share a little instead of stuffing themselves...there wouldn't be any starving children.
I'm surprised Christians haven't solved this problem already, they seem to believe Jesus can do anything if you pray. I suppose they just pray for their own personal salvation and to hell with the children.
sure blame the other guy, helps you sleep at night, that quaalude called absolution. 'wasn't my personal responsibility, it was the one armed christian'. yeah right.
There isn't anyone else to blame. Show me your god and I'll slap him upside the head if you want. Clearly, he can't lift a finger in his own defense or do anything to solve problems. He's worthless and needs to know that.
I'll be the first in line to tell him.
well, neither can you.
now go cash that paycheck and give it to the poor, eh?
-no stopping at the pub on the way...
Go right ahead and tell Him Q, that won't change one ounce of love that He has for you....You don't get it.....you cannot make God dislike you, or "do" something to you......He loves you......
I'm telling you.....you are running from the call of God on your life.....yep, that's it.
An Atheist may feed a hungry child with no expectation of reward. A Christian may feed a hungry child with expectation of reward. Who do you think is closer to God?
neither. they both should do that anyway.
Who says atheists don't feed poor children with no expectation of award? Do you know all their motivations? Maybe they do it to gain social recognition. Maybe they do it because they feel guilty about having more. Maybe they do it so they can brag about their moral superiority. Maybe they do it for the tax deductions. Or maybe they do it for honest reasons like it's simply the right thing to do.
Similarly, you really have no basis for judging a Christian's motivation for doing good. The only difference is that we have an authority higher than humanity that encourages us to do so.
I thought the point was to feed the hungry...not to trip over who does or who doesn't want a reward.....
Who do you think is closer to God....How smug we can be...."I don't want a reward for my good deeds. God loves me more...na,na,na, na, na, na."
Are you serious????
(Q)...very true. Feeding and caring for the children was then and is now the number one priority according to the teachings of Jesus. Religion says he meant to feed them the gospel because most of them are too selfish and lazy to actually do something that Jesus specifically told them to do.....he meant FEED as in FOOD...beans...corn...etc!
I think if you research it you will find multitudes of Christian organizations feeding people around the world ...and in the United States
Feed the Children
Christian Mission Aid Relief
Feed My Starving Children
Organization of Christian Ministries
And a whole bunch more....do you give to them or volunteer to help them? What about the folks in your neighborhood? Your local charities or feeding centers...do you help them out?
Nope..I'm totally selfish...I steal candy from toddlers... I have horns too! Isn't Parsley the guy who doesn't touch door knobs and claims he is a descendant of Jesus?
Check the paychecks dear....feed the kids after the preacher's cut....A lot more kids could be fed...ya know.
Very well put"the Spiritual man judges All things but he Himself is Not Subject to judgment".That's a Gnostic Flag in the Orthodox Church's New Testament.
Being"Reborn"is the realization of our Spiritual Origin.
Salvation Comes threw Understanding the"Narrow Path"that Leads us Back to where we Came from in the first place.
Sorry it took so long to reply TWC.I have to steal time for HP from Work or I get Jumped for it[which is kinda weird cause I'm the owner]by my coworkers so I'm in and out.
Getting Nomad ready for my annual adventure into the great unknown takes every spare minute but she is my only love so I don't mind lol.
Thanks for stopping by my Hub on C G.
How are things with you?
Hello Brenda, how have you been?!
and thank you.
I'm Blessed and stressed at the same time; but isn't everyone?!thank you for asking!
Hope you're doing well also?
I was just skimming over some of your hubs; time's scarce for me right now; but already I find them interesting.
To be born again means to become a "new creature" in Christ.
A spiritual transformation.
I respect your OPINION. :-)
Of course you know they sell for about a dime-a-dozen..:-)
It's good to see all the good teaching and discussion done in the name of our Savior Jesus Christ. We were given Free-Agency and we must use our choice wisely.
Adhominems? I kind've expected that tho.
You justmade my point perfectly!Thank you for that.
As I said, "Is it no wonder that worldwide there exist close to 40k differing protestant sects, each interpreting scripture to suit it's needs.
You are just following suit..:-)
you asked a question we answered.
if that answer doesn't suit your motive, so be it.
as for interpreting. that is the literal.
what is it precisely you are looking to achieve/prove?
Ah, but the right opinion/interpretation is priceless, qwark.
it is that Spirit that hovered over the waters of creation, that same Spirit that raised Y`shua from the dead and that Spirit which lives in you who believe.
again, i am paraphrasing...
Hello twenty one and that "unnamed you know who you are"
Good to see you all posting the wisdom from the Spirit.
Even a tiny light can be seen within a great darkness. The Kingdom of Heaven is a state of existence....the bliss of love and joy....likened to a child....not a carnal place.
I enter the Kingdom of Heaven often...when another human being hugs me and says,"I love you." Sin cannot enter because the Kingdom is of true innocence...a good will and kindness if you like?
What does salvation require? A bathing of the soul by the spirit.
There is one thing I think is being left out of this conversation, especially of course from kess (who I've been given to believe doesn't believe Christ is divine....right, kess?)
...If we're born again, we will Love Jesus (who was the Son of God and God in the flesh). And we must believe that fact.
...We cannot be spiritually made new unless we love the Lord.
It's one of His commandments, and it's simply a "given", a requirement; salvation isn't an emotionally sterile, robotic thing; it's about Love, and recognizing the Love that God has for us.
You either have not been reading or mis reading my post.
I say I am divine, and you can be too, that is the inheritance of The sons of God.
Another thing, Jesus clearly said and it is written, who re ever speaks against him Jesus will be forgiven, but not any who Speaks against The Spirit.
Can you say you understand that Jesus himself placed The Spirit above Himself?
Do you understand Why he did?
I would love to explain but I know you are not able to recieve it.
Yes I understand why He did it, and like you, I would love to explain it but I doubt you would receive it!
I like discussing this, and wish I had the time to continue tonight.
I will say this and then I literally gotta run (back another time, God willing)...
---We humans are not divine and never will be!----
Only God/Christ is that!
Joint heirs with Christ means we inherit the Kingdom by Spiritual adoption.
It does not mean we inherit divinity.
WE will never be God.
The kingdom of god is within you , I tell ye you are all gods, this is the basics of Jesus teachings.
God is omnipresent.....but, all is not God, God is not in everything and God is not the bad guy in this scenario.
I am beginning to think that you guys are trying to get Believers to have an all out Bible Study....hmmmm, not a bad idea.
My (Deborah's) statement "I agree
Brenda's statement here:Is so wrong..."
Brenda Durham wrote:
---We humans are not divine and never will be!----
Only God/Christ is that!
Joint heirs with Christ means we inherit the Kingdom by Spiritual adoption.
It does not mean we inherit divinity.
WE will never be God.
Me (Deborah) again here
"Man is divine. As long as we doubt that fact we can never know God.
What do you think Christ taught?
Scripture says to think it not robbery to make ourselves equal to God. "
I haven'te read what Brenda wrote, this forum is getting a bit lengthy now.
However, I must agree with her stateemtnes that man is not devine. He is nothing but a created being who though in the image of God is only so by dint of sharing some of his characteristics such as: intelligence, wisdom, self awareness, creativity, love, etc, etc.
Only Christ is divine:
Philippians 2:5-7 (New International Version)
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
I included what Brenda wrote. She said man is not divine, not me.
That bible you are quoting is a very bad interpretation of what was really said. Your bible is in error.
"the Bible" is nothing compared to Talmud -especially the spoken portion (Mishnah).
Talmud never places man as divine apart from Y`weh, never.
So it is IN HIM we ARE divine. Do deny this is to deny the Spirit. The Spirit IS divine and dwells in us and MAKES US divine.
We ARE the offspring of Divine, the seed of divine therefore we are the same, divine.
I have an interlinear literal greek translation which includes the best available greek texts gong back 1900 years. It says the same thing. I'd be interested in what bible you have that says something different.
The Hebrew and Greek. However I read Greek and understand it.
If you read and understand Greek, then could you please give me your understanding of whether αίώνιος is correctly translated as eternal, and whether αίώνας τών αίώνας, translated as ages of the ages is correct, and should this mean forever and ever?
Not a trick question, I just need to get this sorted i my own head as I'm caught between two conflicting viewpoints.
Great, Ican copy and paste in Greek, but hubpages can't understanding it on publishing. Strongs #166 aionios and #165 aion rspectively.
Several people here know I speak Greek and Hebrew
I don't have to prove I do.
By The way, it doesn't say age after age nor forever and ever, though it could allude to either
I guess you need to understand a language first before trying to prove someone else doesn't
Since you know Greek so well, why don't you write it in English the way Sufi and I did.
Please write the above in English letters.
And you were trying to trick me (which you can't) so please don't fib to me.
No I'm not trying to trick you. I posted in the Greek because you said you read Greek. However, I have provide you with the two Strong's references.
I happen to suspect that even Strong's has a biased view on the translatins of these words and terms. So when you claimed to read and understand Greek, I thought you might be able to shed some light here.
I did above. The N.T. was written mostly in Greek, in ancient Greek.
What you wrote is closer to Ages than Forever..Like 100 years and 100 years.
I don't claim to speak Greek, I do.
Why do I have to find what I wrote? Why couldn't you. When you ask a question you have to read the answer.
Here is my first answer.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/34860?p … post815748
Here's the reason ask because I think you are suspicious of where I'm coming from.
I've been looking into the subject of Universal Salvation of late, and whilst this argument puts forward a number of scriptures as evidence for their position, I only see scriptures that could alude to that position. I'd love this doctrine to be true, but thus far I'm not convinced.
What I see it boils down to is a transalation of aionios into eternity, and aions of the aions, being translated as forever and ever. Their argument is that aions of the aions should not be forever and ever as per orthodoxy, but that ages of the ages describes a long time of indeterminant length, but finite nonetheless. Likewise aionios is the adjective form of aion - age, so therefore cannot mean eternal, but it describes something having the property of lasting ages.
At the end of the day, if the Univeralist case can be proven then we have a situation that after judgement, there isstill hope of redemption after some period of time for those whoend up in the Lake of Fire (whch by the way I think is allegorical and not literal) The whole argument hinges on these two Greek translations. I not being a Greek reader, was looking for someone who is.
It's more like Centuries (100 yrs) and Centuries (100 yrs) so though a long time, it's not forever and forever.
By the way, are you self taught or did you attend some course? How does learning Kione Greek compare to say German or French?
I grew up with Greeks and learned through listening and observation. I also have two brothers in law that are Greek. I took courses at the Greek Orthodox church years ago.
I can't compare Greek to French or German because I have never studied those two.
My brother in law speaks many languages. He said English was the hardest for him because of all the same sounding words meaning different things. Like to, too, two.
Your Greek Bible Was A translation Of the Hebrew and Coptic.
Translation Always reduces Content.Jesus Spoke Aramaic.Find a Bible in Ancient Aramaic and you've got something.
We all struggle for Enlightenment not knowing that it's already there.Christ had everything we have,He just didn't have Anything More.Arguing about what the Bible means just adds to the humanness that blocks our Light from Shining.Understand this...Christ taught the way he did so Each could understand through There ability to Comprehend.That is why he is the Light of the World and not the few.
Aramaic is a lost language.
No one knows what this jesus said or did.
Stories were passed on thru the generations that were corrupted so badly by time and interpretation that by the time the NT was ready for promulgation, which was amost 300 yrs after jesus was alledgedly crucified, there is nothing credible to be found in it.
All you have is guess and opinion to base your comments on. :-)
While I understand where you're coming from on this...it is still possible to learn Aramaic and get Aramaic translations of ancient documents. There are still people (in the Middle East) who speak Aramaic as their first language. It is RARE, but not dead or lost.
"Aramaic is a lost Language"
That's the Point!However!
"Some men read"War and Peace"and think they read an Adventure Novel.Some men can read a Chewing Gum wrapper and Unlock the Secrets of the Universe".
We all have our own Chewing gum Wrappers!
Hopefully those you mention who read "chewing gum wrappers" and "unlock the secrets of the universe" have been institutionalized....although the pope and jimmy swaggert are still draggin' 'em in!
The human animal is WEIRD! :-)
Jimmy is a right religious peace of work! I loved his comeback! Oh and his missus.
The last time I saw more makeup on a human it was a clown at the circus!
I've seen a few of Swaggert's shows since his "comeback"....I do like his son's or grandson's preaching (can't remember which it was)....haven't seen his wife...is she that bad? kinda like Tammy Faye Baker, I take it??
Anyhoo, if Swaggert has repented and renewed his relationship with Christ, I say Amen to that.
The point is
Where we find understanding is not as important as the Ability to Discern!
I was asked if I believed the Bible was Inspired by God once.My answere was and still is Yes!I believe that every human expression is Inspired ultimately by God.
That said,allow me to clarify my Gnostic understanding of God.
God is the Singularity from which all things sprang.
The term"God"has been completely corrupted over time but to Gnostic's"God"is ineffable,far beyond any description let alone gender and personality.the Debate over weather there was a beginning or we exist in Infinity has raged on from the dawn of language.I choose to believe there was a Beginning,that beginning to me falls under the Original definition of the word"God".
The Aramaic Christ spoke is the Root of that which is spoken today.The language has evolved as all languages do.The Nuances have evolved as well.That is not to say Christs Meaning is lost.It is still a matter of Internal Gnosis to find the conviction of what those teachings are.
Philippians 2:5-6 KJV
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
If we are to have the same mind as Yah Shua and he thought it not robbery to be equal with God, we are to think that way too.
The KINGDOM of God is within a MAN. Realm, domain, territory, zone.
We are the TEMPLE of GOD.The dwelling place of God
The very purpose of life to understand your god self., your divinity.
Those who can't get this or think it's blasphemy will never know God.
Know you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me?
True they behave like they are very holy by saying so and so is the greatest and prophet and religion ,they are just fooling themselves and have very little god knowledge.
That's because Jesus is divine, we are not. When He gives us His spirit such that the Kingdom of God is within us, it goes not in itself make us divine. All we are is a pile of dust into which He has breathed to give us life. When we die, there is just oblivion until a future resurection.
OK if you believe that so be it. I'm not arguing.
"I tel ye you are all gods" Jesus he couldn't be clearer.
"You can sit next to me in the kingdom of god" Jesus
I am going to do that if you want you are welcome to join us.
The KJV has had 20,000 corrections to it since first written. I don't think it should be taken as reliable.
BTW, the point of this pssage is not to tell us we are divine, but to emphasise that we ae to folow Christ by being servants of others.
However you interpret it is fine with me. That's between you and God.
I think "Sexton" meant: "imagined" god.
She and "Disappearing" can offer only opinion and conjecture in ref. to what this "god" thing is....ergo,"it" is imagined.
Ok well, that's between disappearing head and me.
And..my name is Deborah not Sexton. Show some respect.
You think wrong qwark.
She has earned my respect you haven't qwark.
Maybe you are the ignorant one.
I'd like to Join that List!
Deborah!You are Brilliant!
I follow the Christian Gnostic tradition because It's comfortable for me BUT,I absolutely Agree with what you say!Your sources are much Broader than mine and include excellent affirmation of Gnostic Understanding.Keep up the good fight and ignore the poor manners of detractors!
Why do some of you folks feel you must make Personal sarcastic comments?Anyone who has studied the Rules of Debate knows the #1 rule is No Personal Attacks!They only serve to Diminish your own point of View!
Thank you for the compliment. I am Gnostic and happy to hear you are too. I've been Gnostic for many years.(Christ's teachings) The longer you are in it, the more you learn the way of life.
You are right, there is a lot of sarcasm and personal attacks here. I've never been on a forum such as this one before.
Thanks again especially for the brilliant part.
I see all of religion as a personal attack! .... on sanity!
Of course telling people they will suffer because they don't believe in the sky fairy is not a personal attack is it? At least it isn't if you are a god-botherer!
Twenty One Days,
I personally refuse to ever be ashamed to apply the term "Christian" to myself, and will never be ashamed of the name of Jesus the Christ.
Mark 8: 38.
i mean no offense nor ashamed to call Him my Lord.
but the title was given by pagans to believers, much like the title Jew was given to the Hebrews by the Egyptians and again by the Romans -both slanders/slave titles.
I do NOT call myself a "Christian," and neither did the Savior. Since it's the powerful, earthly "Christian" institutions who have whored themselves with the governments of the world and who are blaspheming His original teachings, who have perverted His words, and hidden the works of many of His people. They teach with fear, and they spread the first lie ever told, "You will not surely die."
"Jesus" is not even the name of the person/entity to whom Christians refer; "Christ" is not a name at all, and the 25th of Dec. is not His birth date. Nor is "God" the name of the entity about whom they claim to speak.
I would be ashamed to share a title with any group of people who dare accuse the Creator of the Universe of torturing His children forever, who make it okay to condemn other of God's creations, in direct opposition to the purpose of the sacrifice of His Son.
There's a couple things wrong with that...
Firstly, God doesn't torture His children, especially "forever".
Not all humans are His children, because not everyone chooses to follow Him....
I am aware that God doesn't torture His children. My statement should have made that obvious. But the man-made churches who teach that the condemned burn in hell forever think so, and they teach that (i.e. they teach fear, as I said). If you don't believe that, good for you.
Every person who is and ever has been are the children of God, by virtue of the fact that He is our Creator, our Ultimate Parent; it's a pretty simple concept--according to the Bible we are ALL the children of Adam, believers and non-believers alike. Jesus paid with his life so that ALL of Adam's children could have the chance to see and accept him during the resurrections.
If you and a man had a child and wanted that child to take over the family business, that child would be no less yours because he chose a different route. The exclusivity found in man-made "Christian" churches is sick and blasphemous.
Brenda, I believe most truly do love him.
But I also think they see him more as the Son of Man than the Son of God. Even He told us not to worship him, but instead the Father.
He is clearly savior, first born from among the dead;
As He said -i call you brothers, friends, as i am so are you in this world.
and at his return to the Father, kept his promise of sending the Spirit to us, to lead and guide us into all truth...
Does that mean you don't believe in the Godhead?
And do you know that the Holy Ghost was around even in the Old Testament?
The Triune God is a totally unique, awesome Being. Three manifestations which are inseparable, though they performed distinctly different purposes at given times....
no, no. He is the fullness of the 'godhead' in physical form.
rhema, imrah & logos.
funny, because when i tried to explain this concerning consciousness i got a lot of static back. He was/is living proof of who we are to be and how we are seen by the Father. This was Adam. Christ being the second Adam.
see, we fed the poor, made medicine to heal the sick, build temples for them to pray, we even cast out darkness in your Name"
He replied, "Get lost, I don't even know you."
he was talking to everyone. there is no such thing as christian to Him.
Uh...they did it in his name...never heard an Atheist say.."Here's a ham on rye in the name of Jesus."
never heard a christian, muslim or hebrew say that either, what's your point. stereotyping?
Muslims and Jews don't worship Jesus. To do something in the name of Jesus...I would think one would know who he is?
He is...Faith is just a word but the word is faith. I know how to fry an egg...I have faith that is will taste good. (Snap!)
I have that kind of faith...lol...it will produce something tangible.
Ah, but religious faith is based on naught but "hope."
To guide ones life on the subject "hope," would be insane.
I'm sure yer not insane..right?
I do believe in God but then again..the God that I believe in has little to do with religion. Religion has a loaf of bread in one hand and a brick in the other...they eat the damn brick...over and over!
I guide my life through what I know (knowledge or knowing... such as egg + heat+ salt tastes good) and have faith it will be tasty because of prior evidence.
God is not tangible...not evidence..God is in my mind...not like the egg....except maybe once in the 70s.
Jesus along with many other murdered prophets tried to explain faith to the populous. He gave them bread...they eventually threw it down and ate bricks.
It is kind of like believing that a woman really loves you and having faith that she won't run off with the mail man.
God is spiritual (as in love for another human being) and life is carnal.
Religion sees God on a throne.
I see God in a chair...waiting for me to fry his egg.
hmm, oddly i never mention telling me what faith is. you injected that. quite interesting.
second, why does He need an egg? (snap!? -cool return of the eighties, i'm down with that)
You asked"who is he?" I answered."word" the foundation of word is faith.
Egg = sustenance for the physical body. Egg represents love = sustenance for the soul. I prepare egg to eat because of hunger. I prepare love to eat...spiritual hunger.
Am I wrong to look at it all with such simplicity...could be?
Good point twenty one days he was talking to everyone.
I love to post these kinds questions and read with interest the, in the main, passionate responses of believers who have nothing to base their religious zeal upon but fantasy, conjecture and opinion.
This god that moses created is a young concept. It's only about 3400 yrs old.
So many god/s existed prior to this one. They all had their day and disappeared in the rapidly advancing maze of human progress.
This god thing too, will pass. It is but a "fad" that will be replaced in time by education and understanding.
That is if it's fanatical followers don't bring the self-fullfilling prophecy of armageddon to pass and end the reign of "man" prematurely.
At the moment tho, sadly, that is the most probable scenario.
you almost seem concerned, quark.
ps, there is no Armageddon, just so you know.
I'm sure, the likes of you will create one..:-)
"the likes of me". Yup, stereotyping.
21: What's yer problem with sterotyping?
Personally? I think it's a damned good way to identify the essence of anything.
You stereotype me as an "illiterate." I stereotype you as a primitive who represents the lesser evolved of humanity.
I have to give you credit. You do it well and with zeal..:-)
i'm flattered quark. you use a lot more words to stereo me than i needed to stereo you. Guess the amplitude helps ya, eh?
ps, try not to steal my lines, directly from my hubs while i am in the 'room' it is kind of, rude.
This is fun..:-)
Where would you like to go from here?
it is seldom that I get to play like this.
Lets see...hmmmmm..ok I have it: " Pls provide me with scripture in any monotheistic writing that defines this god thing..FACTUALLY. No opinion or conjecture will be accepted.
Can ya do that for me? If you can, I'll take you seriously.
If you can't, golly, I'll have to presume that you are not a credible "hubber" in ref to this god thing and just chuckle at your obvious absurd bigotry..ok?
Go for it! :-)
Man qwark you never seem to let me down I love these kind of conversations get me more cunfused then i need to be. gosh i hope you guys know what it is like to be a teen and hearing this. you know what i think I think that qwark is doing this for couristy and for entertain meant i would do the same. And am catholic so don't you dare try to convert me to cristianity all I wan't to be is a good person and satisfy my couristy for philsphy, science, and books like the good old J.R.R. tolkian would have read all before I go to heavon are in thte earth were my body gets recycled into other being on this soon to be barran planet. good cristions don't convert other peaple they should be with there family, are practicing worshiping a practicer is better than a preacher so don't degrade your self so stop pearching and practice as your "god" would have you do.
Darn I have spelled some errors sorry, (skip meant added a T in the) and try to be in the middle you guys don't segergate yourselves.
Well said....doing is better than arguing. "stop preaching and practice as your "god" would have you do." Beats all the stuff I said.
Science is building huge particle accelerators , spending billions in order to find the god particle,you should laugh at science.
really? okay, actually read your request:
provide a scripture
in any "monotheistic" writing
There is no such thing as a "monotheistic" scripture.
In all seriousness, there is no mono-theism at all.
Okay. At least some people have the guts the proclaim what they believe rather than asking questions only to have the chance to attempt to poke fun at the people who answer them.
Anyway, a study of history, cultures, religions, and philosophy will reveal that most religions believe(d) in a Creator God, though they may assign Him different names. Further study will reveal that according to many of those religions the point of existence is the same: To Love.
Regardless of the beliefs involved; there's more going on that's ready to cause Armageddon than believers and their "self-fulfilling prophecy." And we're all contributing to it, believers and non-believers alike.
its odd really,
atheist have only questions, no answers, full of deniability.
science has only questions, no answers, full of deniability.
religion has only questions, no answers, full of deniability.
seems no one knows.
it all comes back to the Need To Know.
oh before i sign off for the day, Quark, did you ever take my advice and read the "Tao of Physics". Seriously a good read, as is Zen & the A of MM. might shed some light on your new age thinking.
In reading the inane comments regarding my question about "salvation," it came to me that, WE, being ANIMALS having evolved the anomaly of "consciousness," consider ourselves to be 'worthy" of gaining immortality after our death.
No other "animal" considers its death, ergo there is no fear involved.
The man animal, consciously considers death and understands the concept: eternity.
Wouldn't it be logical to imagine and create a method to alleviate the fear of the consequence of death? To engender a pathway to "salvation?"
For "heavens" sake, an epiphany!
Isn't god great?....:-)
You are closer to the Truth than realize typing that, Quark. Consciousness is THE sin/shortcoming/blindeness of mankind.
for the 1st time since we began dialoguing, i salute you.
pump up the volume, pump up the volume, pump up the volume, dance, dance...
I am not an animal....a mammal yes, an animal no.....
...hence why the Savior came. Everyone is saved.
some are getting into the kingdom, some in the outer court.
jewels or ashes.
as for those non-human beings, there is no salvation, thus eternal torment.
Now I see how you're interpreting it.....I think....
But to me, that makes no Biblical sense.
If, for instance, I thought there was no real hell, I probably wouldn't even try to follow Christ! Because there would be no challenge, no call to "choose ye this day whom ye will serve".....
Who would want to have "second best"? The "outer court" isn't a good goal to strive for, IMO. Who would want to be there when they are promised something better----to be able to finally, belong totally to God, to be in His very presence...?
i agree. outer court is not the best.
But accordingly, His will is that none would perish, but all be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
Send Y`shua to be the testimony of that will and fulfill it.
Promised to pour out His spirit upon all humans so that none could say -oops, i didn't know.
Thus all are saved -by Him. Which is that Great Grace.
Now the choice to believe is theirs.
i do believe that those who do blaspheme the Spirit -that is to say there is no Creator- having that spirit poured on them- will be destroyed, yes. It is the only unforgivable sin.
How do you reconcile that view with your definition of being born again (which equals to being saved)?
i chose to serve Him as His, believing on Him who died and now gives me Abundant life/Eternal life here and now.
his Spirit born in me, a new creation.
He now judges me by works of faith, not laws of moral consciousness (sin). When I am before Him and He judges my deeds, I will either have a pile of jewels or a pile of ash.
saved -not as in 'needing salvation'
saved is 'being salvation', accepting the truth of Y`shua, accepting the free gift, accepting the fullness of the Spirit -the gift: love and all things that pertain to Eternal Life and godliness.
You're a universalist?
Again, what good is the challenge to serve Him or not, if everyone is gonna be saved anyway? Lazy people would live like "hell" here and still inherit the "outer court".....
...I interpret the reference to jewels as saved people becoming His jewels.
I know other people who, like you, believe that God wouldn't let anyone go to hell. But where is the authority of His judgement in that interpretation?
sin and death [hell] have been swallowed up by salvation.
so, where would they go?
the only place is the lake of fire, with the fallen angels.
no offense, again with titles. Universalism is a new age concept, so no i would not be one.
Sorry if I offended you. It was in the form of a question; thanks for answering.
Well....that still doesn't answer the question of hell.
The Bible does mention everlasting torment, etc. in reference to nonbelievers, not just the fallen angels...
I'm gonna refresh my memory by looking up some of those passages.
See ya later hopefully.
indeed. if not today, tomorrow then.
enjoy the day!
Revelation 21: 7 and 8:
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
BUT the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death."
This is the same "lake" of "fire" which Scripture says is everlasting. Matthew 25: 46 also tells us that "these shall go away into everlasting punishment;...." (He's talking about, coincidentally, the subject that Q keeps bringing up, about neglecting to minister to the needy, with the second meaning also of those who don't minister to the Lord), so there's a couple of answers to both your views and Q's..)
The first quote also shows the division God makes between sinners and His children.
So....tell me, Twenty One Days, how is it that you don't believe in hell (or, eternal punishment in the lake of fire anyway)?
Those Scriptures are very clear, at least to me.
...Is there some supposition that the sinner's "part" in the lake of fire is temporal? That God will send a sinner there and then rescue him later and let him reside in "the outer court"?
I don't see it.
First, many thanks on the ch.ve.
First things first the Matthew reference, which is before the resurrection:
-in reference to the lake of fire, Y`shua states that those before the Sacrifice for that salvation offered to all man, those from Adam to He would face not only the first death but also the second along with Lucifer and the angelic beings who sided with him. At the descending, all souls where told the Truth. Those who believed were lifted up, this is the first resurrection & those who did not receive, because they lived/died under the law -yet refused to accept the gift of salvation, cannot be reborn to receive that salvation (born of water/spirit). So they are cast into the lake with those angels.
In the Revealing of Y`shua Moschiach ("the book of revelation"; rev 1:1), John sees this with much clarity.
There is no mention of Hell/Hades as a place of reckoning under the New Covenant. For such a place was controlled by Lucifer, who is no more, for -forgive my paraphrasing- Y`shua has "swallowed up death and Hell"; "I have the keys of hell and of death." (Rev 1:18) "Behold I make all things new (rev 21). "All things have passed away, all things have become new"; "I give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven" ;
Paul also says this. So if Paul -who was after Him- says all things are new and John, who before Him, with Him and there at His death/resurrection/ascension, as well as, after Him says all things are new. And Y`shua Himself fulfilled ALL LAW AND PROPHECY, this vision of John is to prove the works of Christ.
It should also be noted that when the spirit came at "pentecost" the Spirit now dwells with man (rev 21).
Thus, Hell is no more. All have been given the gift of salvation. All men saved by Him and Him alone, lest any man should boast in himself and say he has saved himself and is equal to God.
For this is the unforgivable sin: blasphemy against the Spirit.
i think that about covers it.
This is crazy talk! If I was born in some poor country because that is where my parents were born what possible religious explanation would make sense.
If little ones are born in the wrong country they suffer. Got nothing to do with their beliefs!
Being "saved" seems to be a matter of being lucky enough to be literate and have a full belly.
What a disgusting pile!
It is, Earnest. The problem is that this "disgusting pile" is not Scriptural and not Christian.
Hi Valerie. I know you do not like to see quotes from the old testament, but this is the sort of crud that is in the bible. Is this not scripture?
Stand in silence in the presence of the Sovereign LORD, for the awesome day of the LORD's judgment has come. The LORD has prepared his people for a great slaughter and has chosen their executioners. "On that day of judgment," says the LORD, "I will punish the leaders and princes of Judah and all those following pagan customs. Yes, I will punish those who participate in pagan worship ceremonies, and those who steal and kill to fill their masters' homes with loot. "On that day," says the LORD, "a cry of alarm will come from the Fish Gate and echo throughout the newer Mishneh section of the city. And a great crashing sound will come from the surrounding hills. Wail in sorrow, all you who live in the market area, for all who buy and sell there will die. "I will search with lanterns in Jerusalem's darkest corners to find and punish those who sit contented in their sins, indifferent to the LORD, thinking he will do nothing at all to them. They are the very ones whose property will be plundered by the enemy, whose homes will be ransacked. They will never have a chance to live in the new homes they have built. They will never drink wine from the vineyards they have planted. "That terrible day of the LORD is near. Swiftly it comes – a day when strong men will cry bitterly. It is a day when the LORD's anger will be poured out. It is a day of terrible distress and anguish, a day of ruin and desolation, a day of darkness and gloom, of clouds, blackness, trumpet calls, and battle cries. Down go the walled cities and strongest battlements! "Because you have sinned against the LORD, I will make you as helpless as a blind man searching for a path. Your blood will be poured out into the dust, and your bodies will lie there rotting on the ground." Your silver and gold will be of no use to you on that day of the LORD's anger. For the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy. He will make a terrifying end of all the people on earth. (Zephaniah 1:7:18 NLT)
People who never heard of God cannot be justly accused of being, and I'm quoting here, "content in their sins, indifferent to the Lord, thinking He will do nothing at all to them."
Scripture is useless if people like you keep quoting it out of context.
The best advice that I could give any believer that reads their bible is to read a KJV of the bible open to the 9th chapter of the book of Daniel.... And try to read it like you have never before even heard about "THE BIBLE".
And remember that the year described in the first verse is declaring this to be 506 BC that this story begins.
And the best advice that any Believer could TAKE is to read and understand this Chapter.
And may God Bless You All..
Just thinkin out loud again... What if there is a dozen people on the beach front. You can see two Islands out there in tha distance. No make that three islands....
There are three boats pull up to the dock. Everyone can go to whichever island they want to.
Which ever One I get on, I'm goina tell myself that it is going to heaven. And it will be for,.. me....
It's what I'm goina make it be.
You will be much happier on the other one cause you like loud music and stuff ; more than we do on our island.
Now you go over there .... to hell.
And you can be thinking the same thing; back at me.
Wouldn't that be nice....
Wish it was. ??
Could it ??
Because, you see, Christians care very much about which boat others are on. The Christian would be tryin' to haul the other boats back with a lasso or whatever they could use to GET THOSE SINNERS pointed toward Salvation!
Plus, God doesn't "trick us".
He gives us each a conscience and enough knowledge to know the score, to not be duped into thinking we're saved if we're not.
I know of no Christian who'd think he had saved himself.....
I know of Christians including myself who know we have a clear choice to either accept or refuse the gift of Salvation.
The subject of Salvation is simple and clear.
The Way is narrow but clear, and Jesus clearly defined it.
We are back to the original subject of this thread.
Ye must be born again. Ye must Love Christ and recognize Him as the Son of God and the God that He is.
"not of works, lest any man should boast"
"we healed in your name, fed the hungry, made the blind see...he replied, i don't know you go away" (paraphrasing).
born of water AND spirit. any man who denies the Spirit cannot enter the kingdon of Heaven -which is in your heart.
Loving Christ : it is not the anointing we should love. For what is the command: love your neighbor as yourself. For if He dwells in you, you dwell in Him and the fullness of the Spirit rests upon you. Thus, you love your neighbor without fear, as you love yourself -Him dwelling in you. For if any hates his neighbor, the love -dwelling of the Spirit- is not in him. So then, this man is not known to God, for He dwells with spirit. Therefore, this man cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.
For i tell you a secret, we shall not all die...for that Spirit who was with Enoch, a man of faith and Elijah, a prophet of God, dwells in the hearts OF ALL who will receive Him freely. Even as freely as the Son of Man laid down his life for all men. Even still, should we sleep, we know that He who holds the power of life and death shall always be with us. For the hard-of-heart, the unbelieving, this is their burning conscious all day long. Knowing that He gave his life, yet they refuse Him. For the believer, this is their great grace and fullness of joy.
it is also mentioned in rev (4:10) that the 24 elders were before the throne of the Lamb. Who are these 24? They are BOTH the tribes of Isra`El and the 12 Disciples (figuratively).
additionally, there is NO mention of a 'great tribulation' going to happen post Ascension which 99% of believers are told is going to happen. If you find it in Revelations, i will eat my hat.
The challenge is ON.
Buy yourselves lotsa alka-seltzer.
If ya want to read Revelations you also will not find anything about The temple in Jerusalem being rebuilt again.
There lots of misconceptions such as these.
3 hats in!
I'm with you.
it escapes me how easily the multitudes are swayed.
even the elect of heaven.
I know what ya mean.
kinda like listened to the hounds run a fox at night?
If anyone has ever listened to the hounds run at night would know that this was is not an insult.
They would know what I mean.
Ah, but those days shall be shortened so that the elect will not be deceived.
And that's another whole subject of discussion and cause of debate as to who the elect are. I see it in simple terms, but have often argued with friends about "the elect".
as much as I'd like to see you two guys eat your hats TONIGHT, I've got to go. I'll give it my best shot another time.
We are not suppose to take away or add to the word to prove a point. You don't even give scripture book.
That's not what it says. It says those DAYS shall be shortened for the elects SAKE. It does not say those days will be shortened for the elect. The Days will be shortened. PERIOD. meaning the days of tribulation will be shortened and over with.
Matthew 24:22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
And what about this one?
IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other
And to be smug the way you are being..do you have a hat?
Fox Hounds I went on a couple a trips when I was young; living up in the foot hills. (Around 1964) Some of the neighbors had a couple of fox hounds.
He would turn them loose, and when they get on a trail that old farmer would get in his truck; driving maybe fifty miles before the night was over. The sounds of the chase would move too far to hear, so he would drive around to tha other side and wait for them to come around, and he would just listen to them run.
By midnight he would know which fox the hounds were chaseing, and already know where he was going to be parked about 4:00AM.listening for them to come over that last hill before he would drive back home.
A long night and a bottle of wiskey to keep him warm.
He often said that this was his church.
Who am I to say what he was feeling and thinking?
Twenty One Days and Jerami,
You guys are saved saved, saved, I tell ya, saved from the horror of eating your hats!
It isn't that I give up totally; just that I'm too tired and haven't had the opportunity to research Revelation about the question.
Plus, Revelation to me has always been a dream-like sequence, a "movie", if you will, of events that are mostly Spiritual. I see about 90% of Revelation as symbolic. For instance, Jesus supposedly returns on a horse. I say what need would God have for riding a horse? and etc and etc. And indeed all the "scholarly" people and apologists that I've had occasion to listen to, cannot themselves agree on much of Revelation.
I must at this time keep it very simple, as I usually do.
The main thing is something Jesus said (and He changes not!) and I'll stick to the pure simplicity of it----
Ye must be born again!
Sorry it has taken so long to respond... been a lota stuff goin on. Hope all is well with you all.
There are many things that people believe are biblical but is not.
Revelation is impossible to understand until we realize that it is the sequel to the book of Daniel.
After many years of attempting to "Uninterpreted" these prophesy...I believe that The book of Daniel is prophesy that 99% of; covers events that happened from 605 BC until around 138 AD.
The book of Revelation is visions that overlaps some of the prophesy as stated in Daniel and prophesy for things that must come soon,, for the time is at hand ..
The prophesy as stated in the book of Revelation began unfolding in 96 AD, when John received these prophesy and have been unfolding ever since.
People mistakenly combine these two books. Mixing them together and stirring vigorously.They are two independent stories.
All of prophesy has been fulfilled except for the sounding of the seventh seal and the pouring out of the seventh vial judgment.
Like you what, earnest?
Don't tease me now.
You know I was hoping you'd say you'd recently come back to your first Love (the Lord)....
anyway, good night earnest. It's way past this old gal's bedtime.
I'm Buddhist. I've been "born again many, many, many, many times. So maybe he has too.
Hay Brenda; how are you today? Fine I hope.
I think I should have said in that previous post that this is only an opinion cause it is mine.
I do firmly believe that these two books of prophesy are two entirely diffrent sets of prophesy. And to see them as such will clear up a lot of misconceptions.
From The KJV Christian Bible:
1. Not everyone has to repent. Mark 2:17."When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
2. We have to think differently..we have to renew the mind.
2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1-21..The rest of this chapter tells us how we should think and treat others. With Love (Love is the Law)
3. We are suppose to think like YahShua (Christ)and he thought it wasn't robbery to make himself equal to God..he knew he was divine and we are suppose to know this about ourselves
5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
4. We are to stop condemning ourselves and others for what we/they do. We are to have faith that we are OK.
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin
5. It says to be baptized in water..is to be emerged in water as an outward rite showing we see ourselves as clean.
6. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
8. Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
11. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
13. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him
14. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15. And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
The Word also says there's none righteous and that all have sinned. Look at verses 19 and 20 of that chapter in Mark you quoted. Jesus was explaining that the "children of the bridegroom" were in the presence of the Lord (Himself) while He was literally living with them, walking beside them, so in effect they were covered by that fact. Look at the later verse where it says they will fast after He's gone.....
So, to say that not everyone has to repent is a fallacy.
I agree with you on your point #4, and the passages about water baptism being an outward symbol of salvation.
That's because of the wrong transliteration. Death and hell will be done away with.
Brenda..that has to do with his disciples fasting and has nothing to do with repentance. It was a whole new subject.
Brenda..that has to do with his disciples fasting and has nothing to do with repentance. It was a whole new subject.
The part where you say none is righteous. .this is for those who thought because they had the word of God, they had it all and was better than others and did not need faith. . If NONE were righteous. .that would mean Jesus and all the prophets of old weren't. It describes people as righteous in the old and new testament. Simply it means all flesh needs God. Taking a few words can really distort the meaning. You have to look at it as a whole.
In Romans 3 Paul first addresses the possible false interpretation of what he just said, making it clear that we are not to think we can sin so that God can show his righteousness. Paul makes it clear that man's evil deeds are worthy of punishment and do not cancel His right to judge the world. He gives himself as an example (verse 7) of someone who faces God's judgment due to his own sin.
Paul was accused of teaching against Torah - a charge he vehemently denied both here and in Acts 21:21-27. (Our background material discussed Paul's faithful Torah observance as a rabbi and Pharisee.) Although Peter warned that Paul's teachings were at such a high level that many would misunderstand what he was saying (2 Peter 3:16), there is also a probability here that these were men opposed to Paul, who were lying and speaking evil of him. Paul will bring up the subject of Torah and sin again, in verses 5:20-6:1.
Romans 3:9 is one of the more blatant cases of poor Scripture translation found in the Bible. First of all, the question is not if the Jews are "better" than gentiles (as the King James translation would have you think), but if they have "an advantage" in some way (see verse 9 below). More importantly, the answer to Paul's question, "No, in no wise," is an incorrect translation of the Greek ou pantos, which means, "not entirely."
Paul makes it clear that if the Jews whom the Torah "speaks to" (those that do and hear) are facing judgment, then those who do not share this benefit (the rest of the world), are no better off, hence, every mouth is stopped (shut up).
Although the Jews have the real advantage of the Torah, both they and gentiles sin and face judgment (as Paul showed in chapters 1 and 2). Judgment however, comes to the Jew first and then to the gentile as they are judged at different levels. (To whom much is given, much is expected.)
God's Torah is Holy, and its commandments are to be followed, as it is the path He has given us to learn of Him and to salvation. Scripture paints a beautiful pattern:
For Twenty One Days and Jerami and anyone else who said no one will go to eternal punishment.....
Revelation 20: 15.
Learn Hebrew and Greek...read the book in its original languages...let go of the blasphemy you've been taught...then get back to us on that verse.
I do not recall saying that there would not be an eternal punishment or that there would be. I would have to question the definition of what exactly that punishment would be.
As I mentioned in another thread earlier I believe that Good and Evil made a compromise in 326 at the council of Nicaea when universal Religion was born.
There is much truth in the bible as we know it, but it takes but a little untruth, and exclusion of pertinent scripture to derail the intended message.
Truth defined is: "...the "real" (not artificial; genuine)state of things.
Pls tell me how you know: "There is much truth in the bible?"
Clear this up for me will ya? Thanks.
oh, and while yer at that, pls offer the scripture that defines this god thing factually. Not in terms of opinion or conjecture..ok? deal?
I must say that the following is only an opinion..
You know that there is no way for me to convince you that there is proof of anything that you do not want to believe.
In reality you are unable to prove to me that I truly exist.
There is no proof that You are not the center of your own universe and I am but figment of your imagination.
Any and all proof that you may present would also be a creation of your imagination as I am.
So.. Is there any absolute proof that Proof actually ever existed?
I confess that you caught me not adding a disclaimer to my earlier post. Does everyone actually have to say that this is only an opinion every time they express an opinion.? Because after all most every post is but an opinion.
In my opinion there is much truth in the bible but it has been contaminated with omissions, a few mistranslations, and obliterated by too many misinterpretations.
Sorry...I know I didn't answer your question... cause I know that would be imposible.
Thanks for being honest.
I don't ask for proofs of this god thing. That would be folly. I don't know what this "god" thing is. Nor do you or any other living creature.
No scripture in any of the 3 major monotheisms factually defines this god thing. "It" is mentioned but never defined in any other than forms of "opinion."
"It" is therefore existing only in the imaginations of those who HOPE "it" is.
That is why WE who don't know, can only deny the concept of this thing you refer to as "god."
Until "it" can be factually defined, we have no other choice.
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