Why do Christians have a problem with Homosexuals?
Maybe between all of you, we can do away with the whole book! Nice!
In your dreams Earnest, you can live in hope, but don't hold your breath, you would discover the secrets of the universe before the Book fades away or is diminished by those who would seek to do that.
From the outset I would like you all to know that I am not a homosexual, but I am an atheist and believe that everyone has a choice to be with who they want regardless of sex. Although, the New Testament does not refer to homosexuality you must take into account that it is not meant to be a book on the law, as was Leviticus in the Old Testament.
The O.T. makes several references to homosexuality and calls it an abomination before God. Jesus said that he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets but rather to fulfill the law. So some aspects of the law still remain relevant to Christians today, especially those laws dealing with moral issues. Some argue that homosexuality is not natural: God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.
I personally could care less what you do in your own bedroom nor with whom you do it with as long as it is not illegal. And it does not harm anyone such as a child,animal, or if you forcefully rape someone.
Today's Christians in my opinion are all about judging everyone outside of their ranks. And the bible although it condemns this at the same time advocates that they separate themselves from the rest of us.- Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago
0John 15:26
When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.
John 16:12-15
And Y`shua said: when the Teacher comes, HE will lead you into ALL Truth.
ALL of Romans 8!
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. I just wish people would just follow their own beliefs and not force them on anyone else. It is not for you to judge how others live their lives...
Worry about your own eternal salvation or damnation not another's.Excactly UW...
They, the Homonazi agenda pushers on the left, need to stop forcing it into our education systems and teaching it as normal behavour to kids.
If they grow up and decide to behave that way... then that is thier choice.
Untill then it should not be pushed on every lil kid in school in this country as a great thing to do to pass the day with your friends.
Damn... I knew we could agree on something.*************************
Who is forcing anything?
T.O.D. is challenging and I am responding. He is slandering me and calling me a liar. and I am responding.
Is it Okay with you?Yes... good point, deb.
They don't have to force it.
They, the left, own the education system in America. They just impliment it into thier lil curriculli.
Thank you, for correcting me.**********************
When did I correct you? That was to uninvited writer who comes and reads and don't want to read what we say!??
Why do you always assume that any criticism is aimed at you?
This was an overall statement, not aimed at you...You posted after my statements and T.O.D. and I were posting different views. That's why
And I always assume?Yes, I often see you over react to the innocent words of others.
Right. You mean after they follow me from thread to thread calling me a sorceress and saying I am a liar.?
Yes that is innocent.
Show me one of those posts.they? I am one person. my issue is not if you are a sorcerer or not -but based on the publications you have here, and your websites, it makes me lean in that direction.
But, back to the case.
Where and whom disputed Paul -meaning the Twelve and Y`shua, using Paul's name or a direct reference to him. That is proof, evidence.
- Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago0
Here is my last bit.
you remember when Y`shua says: If I cast out devils by the power of the devil, the house will not stand. Like saying why would i be against myself, right? Here is what happened with Paul:
Act 13.8-12 - Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago0
this is where you copied it from:
http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/
http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/paul_ … ceiver.htm
http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/paulthe.htm
the information in those three links is found in your hubs. Deny it and I'll report it to HubPages.
Nothing Paul said goes with what Yahshua said:
-strange because all Paul ever talked about was Y`shua.
BTW, PAUL called himself and Apostle to the gentiles.
The 12 were Apostles only to the Hebrews. read the books again, love.
but I am still waiting for proof he didn't.....*********************
You already posted those. I looked and they just agree with me.
I posted more links to the sites of those that agree.
Your point? What I posted is in the Bible. I copied that.
I invite all to read my hubs and those you posted.
You say you don't read the Bible, so read it.
Or ask your Spirit to read it to you.
Prove it yourself. Read it and understand or not. I don't care.
If you're not meant to understand, you're not meantI have read the bible darling. so ha ha to you.
Again, the bible sounds bites you gave do not show the twelve disputing pauls position. BTW, Paul only called himself an Apostle to the Gentiles. The 12 were Apostles to the Hebrews.
Read the books again, love.
And if the Spirit was in you, you would not practice magic arts -tarot, self-enlightening divination or rituals, astrology, etc.
That is what I told you before regarding ba`al worship. You fit the mold perfectly.
Was fun, and engaging. But I have to go now. Enjoy the weekend!***************************
The Bible says the only way you can be an Apostle. 1. If you walked with and was taught by Yahshua 2.Was with them, from the time of the Baptism till the same day Yahshua was taken from them.
After Yahshua ascended there could be no other person taught directly by Yahshua or see his resurrection and ascension
You only read the titles of my hubs.
Apostle is a student of Yahshua, Paul was not and was not an Apostle.*********************************
You're wrong about the teachings of Baal. Explain them
Where have I practiced magic? You are saying that because Cecil did
You're so not smart or versed. You prove it everything you post
Bites of scripture? Was I suppose to post the whole Bible in my hubs and on the forums?.
I gave connecting scripture so people can read the rest for themselves.
You haven't posted any proof.again, YOU are the one claiming Paul is the anti-christ (btw, that is going to p-off millions of believers and churches, cuz they are still waiting for him to manifest and call fire down from heaven).
But, never mind that.
It is the duty and burden of the one accusing -in this case you accusing Paul- of the crimes. The aggressor/speaker/prosecutor must prove -beyond a reasonable doubt, using evidence -not circumstantial evidence or opinion- and eye witness testimony (love that word) the claim they are making is true. Where by, the person judging those facts and evidences can make an honest and right decision. So, get to it and let's see it, else I will discount everything you have rambled and semi-copied published as opinion and more cause to confuse and harm the children of the Most High.
ps, the question should have been asked, when have you not practiced those items mentioned.Read Romans 7
I do not have to prove anything.
You are challenging me
Paul is dead.
I already proved Paul. I told you where to read.
Prove your challenges of me.I am only defending. So, it is my job to cross examine your statements/claims to his falseness. I don't have to prove him right only that your statements are false based on the information you are spewing.
I find it funny you are using revelations which also states many characters of the beast -none of which you have proven relates to paul especially regarding certain signs and wonders. In addition, you have provided ANY proof or eyewitness testimony of the Twelve or Y`shua against paul.
That makes your doctrine/accusation false.
Case dismissed?
***********************************************
I wrote this about the meaning of 666 7 months ago
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/44370?p … ost1033427
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/44370?p … ost1033459
I show the meaning of the number here but you guys don't see.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/44370?p … ost1033469
Same as I wrote on my hubthat is incorrect.
In the Hebrew it is not TRSV or U it is TRSI.
שאול התרסי or שאול מטרסוס : Šaul HaTarsi not HaTarsu.
so with this little thing, you build the entire thing -making it all false.Tarsu. The Vav at the end of a word is U
The Yod is not in Tarsus
They called it Tarsu look it up
You are copying someone that is wrong.
Besides it is the 666 that brings us to Tarsu
Tau=400, Resh=200, Samekh=60, Vav=6
Not the spelling that brings us to the 666
Don't act like you know Hebrew and it's meaningJust because the city of Tarsus sounds like it doesn't mean it is.
And millions of people came from Tarsus. Paul only gained his "passport" from there because of his daddy -who bought his papers to make him a roman citizen. Paul lived most of his college years + in Jerusalem.
Don't act like you do either. :LOL: Just because you married into a jewish family speaking greek doesn't make you a jew. And the websites you use to proliferate your "hebrew intellect" are the same for everyone. There is no Hebrew for Deborah's in Barnes Nobles.
(michifus, i am not a christian. but hi!)tau resh? no, it is final mem 600 + 60 + 6 not 400 + 200....
****************************
That is modern Hebrew.
The numbering system did not go past Tau=400 in those times.
You have to count it as it was in that day.
The modern numbering of mem as 600 has no real value to it.
It is used now in modern Hebrew just as a faster way in counting only.
You think you are so smart, but you're not
Mem is still 40Actually, your whole speal has no real value.
you have tried every which way to dispute Paul and it didn't work. That makes you deceived and falsely instructed -even as an "ordained" minister. Might want to read revelation again before you use it to make claims.*******************************
Stay away from me. You're certainly not like Yahshua.
You say you have the Holy Spirit. LOL
Your B.S. is growing tiresome, so are you.
Study for yourself.
If you can't understand Matthew you will never understand revelations
GOODBYE
I found the whole Christian baiting on Hubpages rather strange at first, as my experience of Christians was that they were a pretty tolerant lot. (Not The Lot of course, who was not really the most tolerant of people it must be said)
Then I realised that a lot of American Christians really do take the bible as gospel (forgive the pun), and that every word, including the old testament, tends to be taken as read, rather than being accepted that it was written by man,and is at best symbolism, and at worst, utter bollocks.
I digress.
Homosexuality, no matter what religion, is kind of arse over tit (so to speak). It goes against the natural order of procreation and all that.
Quite why people have such a problem with it is beyond me. I personally don't understand what the big deal is, or why it makes people feel so sick to the stomach. Probably some deep repressed desire for the same sex I suppose. Whilst I do not advocate embracing it in the same way as the Catholics, Who does it harm? Seriously, what's the big deal?
I'm hetero, if anyone was wondering, and the cat is a eunuch, so I feel that we are two thirds qualified to answer this, and I'm sure those who have defected to the brown side of The Force will back me up, which surely makes us 100% correct on this
Live and let live. Or live and let live in the knowledge that those who do not tow the line will burn in hell. In the meantime, enjoy the partay!Paul mentions other disciples in some of the writings said to have been written by him.
I was wondering if any of the disciples mentions Paul in any of their writings?
Other than his own writings are there any other documentation, scriptural or otherwise, of Pails existence?
Not to be argumentative ; honest curiosityso do i look like i care wait you cant see me ha,ha,ah,ha,ha,
From the book of the homophobic sky fairy.
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
This seems clear enough! The biblical god is a homophobe.
lucieanne I almost agree with you.
I've been saying almost the same thing EXCEPT that the bible says that all of this is going to happen.
A religious organization is said to rise up to power.
It will agree with just enough of the "Beliefs" of the day yet perverted just enough that it is said to be Blasphemous.
It was given 42 (prophetic) months to perform its Blasphemous teachings.
It twisted the teachings "JUST" enough to pervert the teachings of Christ. But not too much that it might fool even the very elect.
42 prophetic months is approx. 1260 prophetic days.
Even according to the church this would be at least 1260 of our years.
The Catholic Church was assembled 1685 years ago.
The timeline comparison of a day equals a year was introduced by the church???
In fact in Daniel 9:26 ; 62 weeks is described as being 568 years. Do the math. A prophetic day equals approx 1.3 of our years.
At the very least this statement is something to ponder.I was always crap at maths Jerami. Does this tie in with the 2012 theories by any chance? I find it really difficult to believe in this prophecy malarchy, my rational mind won't let me.
There are two possibilities as to when the 42 months began.
Either in 359 AD when one of the "HEADS" (Popes/bishops) returned to Rome after being expelled from his position and sent into exile by the Emperor. And recovered in 359.
Or in 380 when the Catholic church was officially proclaimed to be the only religion in the Roman Empire. the time span could range anywhere between Approx.2000 and 2036
My best estaments using the date of Pope Liberius returned to his former position; the end of the 42 months would be between approx 2012 and 2015.
I am not saying that this will be the end of the world!
I'm just saying that the 42 months will have been fulfilled.
I do not want to over state what I see as being actually written in scripture.I just dont get it at all. I've recently written a hub about the Mayan calendar-if it can be believed etc. It seems like even though these races were on the planet roughly around the same time, the tribes in the East lived to be really old, yet the ones over in the Americas were only living about 40-50 years. I just think it's all a bit Chinese whisper-ish. The bible was translated from hebrew into barely decipherable King James English. I'm sure Jesus didn't really say the words 'Verily I say unto thee' I think things have been lost in translation and the bits they didn't understand they made up - same as the Maya
You could be absolutely correct.
It has always been my opinion that if we can not believe the things that are written as quotes that Jesus is said to have said, A Christian might as well throw the whole thing away.
If there are discrepencies between things that Jesus is said to have said and those things that any of the disciples said?... I'm going to believe those of Jesus.
If I can not believe what Jesus said then I won't believe what the disciples said either.
But that is just my way of thinking.I was given a bible that a close friend of mine was given by his friend that he and others translated the same ancient text as the ones that KJs' people used.(copies of I would think) This book is almost exactly the same as the new KJV. It was translated in the 60s.
Yes, I agree that Christian's leaders does down homosexuals. These tend to be older, but the young Christian leads have chilled on the subject because they are more educated about homosexuals. I personally feel that homosexuality should not be seen in a positive light. I agree with Bill Clinton's policy of don't ask, don't tell not only for the military, but for all social norms.
A homosexual can hit on me once, but after I say I am strictly straight, I expect no further advances. I have in the pass continued to party and associate with the known homosexual. Many of my friends are homosexuals.
Love should be extended to homosexuals, not rejection; God loves them also.Apparently god doesn't love homosexuals.
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
As I have said before, the biblical god is a psychopath.But the Biblical God was described by Man, who always manipulates anything to suit his own Beliefs.
So if the man had been Homosexual maybe, we would have seen another story. Who knows. All these Christians on here sem so hostile.Religion is pretty hostile in itself. A quick dig in the quoran or bible tells the story.
True, Most Wars are based around some religion, you on't get much more hostile than that.
Both the bible and quoran describe an equally psychotic entity as the object of fear.
I understand it working on the masses then, but now? Incredible!
Ignorance by choice!
Why do Christians have a problem with Homosexuals?
Why do christians break traffic laws, like speeding etc.?
Why do christians make babies?
Why do christians get fat when we eat too much icecream?
Why do christians use sunblock when at the beach?
I gues we can also ask
Why are Christians greedy
Why are christiand liers
Why are Christians theaves.
Fact is these are all problems of humanity.
But; I admitt that these things look much worse when worn by self professing Christian.I hope everyone got their religious BS out of their system. Let's talk plain human relations. Homosexuality is an Abomination to straight people. Hetorosexuality is an Abomination to gay people. Stay on your side of the line and mind your own GD business and we should all be fine. People of of any sexual preference that hurt children should be shot. Animal lovers, and murderers, and rapist have no place in the conversation at all.
Abomination is a religious term. So much for removing the BS, eh Bacall...
Bacallsaid...
Homosexuality is an Abomination to straight people. Hetorosexuality is an Abomination to gay people.
..... Stay on your side of the line and mind your own GD business and we should all be fine.
But we do need to recogonize basic facts
Jerami said
That at least is getting closer to the truth than blameing everything on Religion, I'm not suggesting segragation either.
We can accept each others behaveior without having to act like we aprove of it.
This goes for everything from the way someone wears their hair or their pants down half way to their knees,,
sexual preference and the way people talk to their Moma.
Everyone just needs to learn where their side of the fence begins and the other side ends.Can we get rid of the double talk too? No balancing acts please. Live and let live! Dont imply that homosexuals influence your life in anyway, but for the fact that you might know who they want to have sex with. When the real deal could be you only get off with a women's big toe stuck in your.....
Follow the Golden Rule, and mind your business.You sound like I've said something to offend you when I don't see that I have. I was agreenin with what ya said.
We are saying something similar but you are angry I'm not.
I agree that everybody in the world are at least a little bit different.
And we have people on both ends of the spectrum.
Everybody has a right to BE.
But no one can expect everyone to agree with them.
And that works just fine until people start looking for conflict. Conflict can be found any where, any time.
Cause everyone has free will to make it be so.
Too bad that many people that are hunting comflict wears "Religion" as their form of camofalogue.Amen my Brother! I think you're a great guy. You try to be fair. The world is not perfect and people that force their will on others for "Righteous Sake" are the worst. People need to accept their hate as their own. I ask or expect nothing more than that. Don't blame your hate on God or Homosexuals.
Not you Jerami!Or fat people or skinney people; short or tall. People with bald heads or poney tails. Oh yea they call um MULLETS now" days.
I don't have a mullet! I got a poney tail half way down my back. Go figure????
All I'm sayin is don't judge a book by its cover.
Don't judge at all cause I think every judgment that we dispence upon others, in this life; we goina haft ta carry every one of um when we get to the other side.
That don't mean I caint, in a unjudgmental way, "Knock" ya back a coupla steps if ya start hitting me on the head.
Not all sex is beautiful.
And I believe the presmise to the question is flawed... or bait.
Christians do not have a problem witrh Homosexuals... they have a problem with act of Homosexuality.
There is a difference.All you leant leftist Liberal Socailist Progressives can do is snipe... that is actually what under-cuts your arguments you know, and calls into question whether you really know what you speak of, or not.
But hey... have at it UW.I've notice people evade addressing a comment with a disection of the statement, instead of the answer to the statement. If sex is bad for you, or you make it bad for your partner, stop doing it! Your sexual performance or lack of it has nothing to do with the rest of us. Mind your business and try to make it better.
I have a problem with a woman sticking her big toe in her man's butt. I'm sure I should be allowed to hang them on a fence, or beat them to death with a bat. All with Gods' blessing of course.
I don't see anybody picketing or pushing for the right to do that gross act. Do you?
But I do see lotsa people pushing for the "right" to shove the homosexual agenda into everyone's face, both privately and publicly.
Ergo, your comparison is invalid, totally.I'm sorry...
It's just that everytime I see a wedding, or some couple holding hands and kissing; I think about the disgusting lapping the man might do and the vacuming action the woman might do, and it disgusts me. I don't think they should be allowed to flaunt such disgusting intentions in public or around children. IT'S AN ABOMINATION!Obviously you're trying to be funny-sarcastic, but what you're really doing is showing your aversion to normal sexuality.
You are absolutely right! I think love and sex are the greatest gifts God gave human beings. All of Gods children are loved in his eyes. That's why when he was finish with his creation; he said "this is good".
Unless you think someone else has the power to create man. Or you think God didn't know he created homosexuals.Adam and Eve.
not...well, you know!
Sheesh! When will people stop twisting God's word?
I guess never.Members of a certain English divorce cult certainly do. Repeatedly. They even have the audacity to call themselves Christian, while violating most of what Jesus Christ commanded his followers to do. But, then again, Jesus Christ doesn't really matter; they pray to two English kings instead.
God defends His word, livelonger.
If the King James version was erroneous, He would've stricken it from society before now.
And if the words in the Bible concerning homosexuality were wrong, He would've had it written in no-uncertain terms Himself.
Try as you wish to re-write both God's Laws and man's laws, but it will not succeed. Because even if literally you were to see success, His Law is written upon the hearts of His followers. Plus, it's written in the consciences of everyone including unbelievers like you. You simply choose to ignore it.
Plus, your constant attempts at deflecting from the subject of threads where the wrongs of homosexuality is adhered to by some people is......akin to breaking your own Staff rules of thread hijacking, Jason.
Why don't you make a thread belittling the forgiven divorced man or divorcee? At least that would be honest of you. Oh wait---that might be construed as a personal attack. Oh well. You can get by with it! You're on Staff, not a peon like me.A neverending source of amusement.
Suffice it to say that similar forms of bigotry were vigorously defended by the religious fringe in the past, and their views eventually became unpopular, too. Even self-identified Christians are become more and more tolerant of gays and lesbians. I know you are an exception, but you maybe represent your cohort more than what younger people and future generations believe.
The arc of history is long, but bends towards justice.I don't care how many "self-identified Christians" become tolerant of the homosexual agenda. I'm not here to be popular. I'm here to exercise my freedom of speech just like anyone else. This IS a "writer's" site, after all.
And you're thinking too short-term. The "arc of history" may bend toward lawlessness for a while, but in the long run it straightens out. Neither of us may be physically living when it happens, because the life span of each human is limited, but eventually there will be a time of justice, eternal justice.
Think out of the box you're in, Jason.Suffice it to say that I disagree with you. You can continue to hope that 'eternal justice' means punishment of people who don't believe the same things you do.
Fortunately, fewer and fewer people think the same way you do, which is why, I believe, humanity as a whole proceeds to become more godly as time goes on.Then I am pleased to be in the minority.
Because that "god" you refer to is not the same as mine.
Especially you continue to leave out the fact that God is a God of forgiveness, redemption for all those who will lay it down at the feet of Jesus.Yes, I am Jewish, and my beliefs about God and morality have very little in common with yours.
I am pleased that you're in the minority, too. Like I said, in a different time, you would have been in the majority.I wasn't referring to the God of the Jews, because that is the same God. At least, same Father; even though many Jews do not yet recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
And I find it hard to believe that any devout Jew would defend the homosexual agenda.
I was referring to your "god" reference. You know, little "g", those "godly" ones who call right wrong and wrong right. Those "gods" are easily accessed but not easily extricated from the mindset of those who hold such liberal views.Like I said before, we'll have to agree to disagree, Brenda.
Brenda I just wanta ask ya this. Do you think that God is going to judge against ya if you do not tell sinners that they better quidit.
Do ya think that God might judge ya if you tell um to quiddit it in the wrong fashion?
I do think that when we stand before him; he is goina ask us how much unforgiveness we been carying all of our lives.
And then we are goina be judged accordingly.
Under those circumstances I'd rather be judged for not being condimming enough than to be found guilty of a heavy hand.I am subject to God's judgement no matter what, just as you are, just as everyone else is.
....."judge against me"? No, He's not gonna judge against me, because He knows I hold no unforgiveness in my heart, and I haven't told anyone to "quiddit" in the wrong fashion. I have many times told everyone here that I don't hate anyone, I don't hate homosexuals but I do hate the sin and the blatant attempts to get my Country to legalize that sin and the blatant attempts to insert that agenda into innocent minds via our Education system; and that I hate almost every policy of Barack Obama's, but do not hate his soul. I've prayed for his salvation (and, incidentally, gotten harrassed hugely for it before.) A Christian can pray for Godly Love for someone's soul if they need to. I've had to do that, in Barack's case and in the case of others who've falsely accused me.
There is a part of forgivenss that people often overlook-------repentance! God's Love is unconditional. His forgiveness is not. It's the same with His followers. If someone does me wrong, I call 'em on it. If they refuse to listen or repent, I forgive them in my heart, knowing that God will forgive them also if they repent. However, I don't have to associate with them or call them my friends, because they are not. My conscience is clear. But for THEM to obtain that forgiveness, they have to admit their sin/fault and ask forgiveness from the person they've wronged before they will be able to RECEIVE the forgiveness that's available for them.
The ultimate reasoning behind this whole concept is something else that people tend to forget or dismiss-----the eternal soul that everyone has.
So, yes, I'd rather be judged for being too fervent, too bold, than to be judged for NOT sounding the alarm loud enough.
Tolerance for evil isn't Love.
Showing someone, telling someone the error of their ways IS Love.
And you may ask why I do so as repeatedly as I do.
Take a look in your Bible, Jerami. How many times does God and do the prophets speak against sin, over and over? MANY. How many times did God warn the nation of Israel about backsliding? MULTIPLE times! Do we think we're so smart that one time should be enough? Maybe we are. But we're not wise. We're also so fallible that it takes many warnings sometimes before we "get it". And He Loves us so much that He warns us, time after time after time. One day He will decide enough is enough and put an end to all the controversy. Until then, we press on, the Right side standing firm on the Bible, the Left side staying afloat on the sinking sand by pulling at every straw that comes along.
The accusation that Christians are too judgemental is often based on that case of the prostitute and her condemners, where Jesus said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone."
What people conveniently leave out of that is this------her condemners didn't care if she was literally stoned and killed! They didn't care about her physical life nor her eternal soul!
Neither did they care about their own souls. Jesus appealed to their sense of right and wrong, their consciences, by what He said to them. Yet which of them stayed and repented? NOT ONE. Only the prostitute stayed long enough to hear "Go, and sin no more."
Christians DO care about sinners' souls as well as their physical lives. That's the whole reason for being "judgemental", as opposers call it.
Let me ask you this-----if you went to eternal punishment, who would you blame? the person who had told you over and over that you needed to repent, or the person who told you over and over that you were A-okay just as you were? Or perhaps yourself, for not listening to that person who told you over and over that you were doing wrong?
Ezekiel 33: 8:
"When I say unto the wicked, 'O wicked man, thou shalt surely die;' if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shlall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thine hand."
That means that I'm accountable for their souls being lost if I don't warn them.
And hereby I will warn you Jerami........you're seeking the favor of men, not of God, when you say it's A-okay for them to do whatever the heck they wanna do, and you do not warn them of eternal punishment.I agree with Brenda on this one Jerami. Stand by your convictions. Don't change your mind to be popular. Listen to what God is telling you in your heart. Because what ever you hear from Brenda or me, BY YOUR OWN BELIEF, SHALL YOU BE SAVED. I'll love you either way. And I'm almost positive GOD's spirit is in you.
"God defends His word, livelonger.
If the King James version was erroneous, He would've stricken it from society before now."
If the KJV is perfect, then why does God allow the continued existence of the various other English translations of the Bible? Or are they all perfect too? If so, why is the KJV your Bible of choice?
"Try as you wish to re-write both God's Laws and man's laws, but it will not succeed. Because even if literally you were to see success, His Law is written upon the hearts of His followers. Plus, it's written in the consciences of everyone including unbelievers like you. You simply choose to ignore it."
I don't think anybody is trying to re-write God's laws. I'm not, anyway. But at the same time, the laws of the US are for all of the US's citizens, and must protect all of them alike, whether they believe in God or don't.
Many of the things that God commands us not to do make no difference to anyone but God Himself.
When dealing with God's laws, well, God is the judge, jury, and executioner. What you say about the matter, or what I say about the matter, doesn't make a bit of difference to God.
But when dealing with Earthly laws, we cannot make each other comply with what we believe God's laws to be without infringing on each other's freedom to freely exercise our own faiths.
The 7th Day Adventists believe that Saturday is the day of rest, not Sunday. Nobody is forcing them to work on Saturday and rest on Sundy like everybody else. Why? Because they commit no Earthly crime by resting on Saturday instead of Sunday. They break nobody's arm, they pick nobody's pocket.
And if the commandment about homosexuality is still in force, it seems, logically speaking*, that the commandment about eating shellfish is also still in force. I don't see anybody agitating to criminalize the act of eating shellfish, and those shellfish-eating abominators are doing it right out in public! At the beach in full view of families and children! Some even feed shellfish to their innocent children, corrupting them in the eyes of the Lord! They must be stopped! Or at least, made to practice their abominable eating habits behind closed doors, instead of celebrating and engaging in their depraved desires in the public square! I think the truth of this should be obvious to everyone after witnessing the Hand of God inflicting His wrath upon the Gulf of Mexico! The Lord is smiting the US for its tolerance of shrimp eaters! You cannot deny the facts!
*I know, I know, logic doesn't really enter into discussions like these.
People are far too interested in other peoples sex lives and what they do in the bedroom. Worry about your own soul.
Maybe if they'd stop TELLING everyone else what they're doing in their bedrooms, and trying to FORCE us to condone it, they wouldn't run into so much opposition.
I for one don't WANT to know what disgusting things they do in private. But they should KEEP IT PRIVATE and take personal responsibility for it, instead of flashing everyone and trying to legalize the unconscienable.
Well, I guess it's time we ban all public celebration of all marriages since it's just throwing it in our face that these people have sex. No hand holding in public, no dancing together, no kissing in public.
Weddings should be celebrated in a dark, windowless basement lest they offend anyone. Children should be hidden from view as they are proof these people had sex.You wish to equate marriage with homosexual actions.
What nonsense.Again, you missed the point.
Marriages and the public celebration of them are publicizing the fact that these people are heterosexual. Much in the way that Gay pride parades or the fact of gay marriages publicize people are gay.I didn't miss the point at all.
The two things are not parallel.
One is right. One is just plain wrong."One is right. One is just plain wrong."
Why?
Didn't WC Fields have that same idea or was it the Puritans?
Jerami, I have to say you are one of the few people that use the Bible for the purpose it was intended for. All the love in the world to you, my brother!
- Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago0
I feel I should add this---
There's a difference if someone admits that homosexuality is wrong and are struggling with the temptation, and are either wanting to deal with it themselves or else would like help, through prayer or Godly fellowship or whatever means of honest help they can obtain. The first step toward forgiveness is admitting it's wrong. - Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago0
He does not judge unbelievers by righteousness, they are judged by the law. Nor does He judge the believing by the law, they are judged by righteousness.
Thank you for the kind reply.
Sometimes I get a little too full of my self.
I quite often find my self saying something that I think is all Ssooo right …and yet at the same time being totally wrong,
I am wrong a lot, so I’ll be wrong some more with this statement.
It is my understanding that anything that separates us from our relationship with god is a sin. That just about sums it up. ….
Jacob was a liar and trickster and had a relationship with God, so in that case being a liar and trickster must not be so bad. But it could be.
Jesus accepts us while we are still in our sin… I know that he did me.
So when we see someone that is broken, we have to realize that can’t fix them, We can love them and help them if they want help but we can’t fix them.
God does his best work with broken stuff in such a way as he gets the all the credit.
All that he wants us to do is to let the love of god shine in us and let that be the attraction that leads the people to him.
God, Jesus and the holy ghost are the teachers and judges.
We are supposed to be the ushers. And maybe the shinning light above the door.
When people are looking for their god we are to show then the way.
I could be wrong but I think this is the approach he wants us to use.That sounds good.
But try the spirit and see if it's right.
I dunno. I'm asking you.
And maybe that is how He wants to work through you Jerami or through other believers, through our personalities and our talents......because He does use us according to our abilities.
One person may not have the ability to be a Pastor or a singer or a missionary, etc., while another person is well fitted to those things. Some have the fortitude to be martyrs like Stephen, who spoke to the people who came into the meeting, while others have the boldness of John the Baptist, etc., who came carrying the message directly to Ceasar, and both were martyred after they preached the repentance message. Either way, they were martyred.
Were there people in the Bible who spoke only of God's Love and not His judgement? ......I'd like to look that up...
How does one be a shining light for the God who is both Love and Judge, if they only spread the Love message? How can anyone get fixed by God unless they're aware they're broken? And too, they must be "broken" in spirit; they must have a contrite spirit. How can we show them the Way unless we tell them the Truth about the Way (that Jesus is the Way and that Jesus is ultimately gonna Judge them?!)
I'm asking. I'm pretty sleepy myself right now, so my thoughts are limited. Maybe we can discuss it further later...
You've opened up a subject of interesting discussion when you mentioned Jacob's trickery.
Jacob had a huge desire for the blessing of God, while Esau took it for granted and didn't consider it as precious as Jacob did. Didn't make it right what Jacob did, but God knew that Jacob had a fervency that He could use to further His kingdom.
Jacob later wrestled with an angel of God too, he wanted the Blessing so badly! (Twenty One brought that up a few days back, good subject!) And Jacob did repent later for his subterfuge, and repented to his brother; but it was, yes, Esau who was the most humble and easily-forgiving (at least that's my take on it). God is a jealous God; the Bible names that (Jealous) as one of His names. God Loved Jacob's desire for His blessing.
This also reminds me of the two criminals on the crosses on either side of Jesus as they were all crucified. One was on the right and one on the left (Luke 23: 33). I dunno if it's ever said which was on which side.....hey that's another interesting question....but anyway, one of them mocked Jesus, dismissing His power, not recognizing Him for Who He was, and the other one did recognize Him and asked Jesus to remember him when He "comest into thy kingdom. (Luke 23: 42). So, the one (in the right, even if not literally at the right hand of Jesus) was fervently desirous of His blessing! That one got saved!
When people dismiss the power of God, His power to save them and keep them from falling, they're denying Him, they don't Love Him; and remember He is Jealous.
Really, I mostly view that concept of being "ushers" and "shining lights above the door" that you mentioned as....false humility that seeks to point toward one's self, instead of being the watchmen and warriors we're called to be, not afraid to dirty our hands, not afraid to be called hypocrites, not afraid to be mocked....
Hmm....I'm very sleepy. Thank you for this discussion, and for treating me kindly, Jerami. Maybe we can talk later more in-depth....?Brenda wrote:
"So, the one (in the right, even if not literally at the right hand of Jesus) was fervently desirous of His blessing! That one got saved!"
Brenda
This is a very disturbing comment. Do you remember why Jesus was up there on that cross. He died to save all of us. We are all saved. There is nothing you or I have to do to GET SAVED! Do you really think Jesus suffered Crucifixtion for you, and Joe, and Bob? He died to save us all and we will all be at his right hand in Paradise! There's nothing required from us. He did all the work. You shoud be thanking him for his sacrifice instead of looking at your Brothers and Sisters and trying to condemn them like you have some power to do so.I have a problem when reading scripture.
When I read them I do not see the same way everyone else sees them. Not just this one but most of them.
This statement that Jesus made while on the cross does not say that the other person goes to hell and it does not say that he goes to heaven. And yet everyone assumes that he is going to hell.
I think that the key word in this sentence is "This"...
"This" day you will be with me in paradise.
The other guy may go to paradise upon the resurrection but not "this" day? He may go to hell?
That verse does not say
There are several possible possibilities.
The only thing that the verse says is that the one man is going to be with Christ in paradise "THIS" day.
We often assume too much into what is written.I'm surprised your poor head hasn't exploded by now.(HA) Don't overthink one or two comments. How could the other theif go to hell then go to paradise? In my opinion, when he said you, he meant all of us. I think that's the reason he suffered and died. Also remember he said "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do. Why didn't he name the few that he wanted to save? We are all going to be dancing side by side in Heaven. Even Brenda! I think a simple poem I put on the forums many times would calm your nerves and give you a little peace. It's called "ST PETER AT THE GATE" by Joseph Bert Smiley
I'm not saying that you are not correct. That is another topic.
In my opiniop what Jesus said in THIS verse is that "THIS DAY YOU ... will be with me in paradise."
We need to digest this before we expand upon the other implications. Such as ...
Where/what is paradise Jesus went to paradise "that day" yet he didn't rise up out of the tomb till a couple of days later??
But that is another issue.
When he said; "Forgive them for they know not what they do"
I think that he was talking about the Roman soldiers that actually carried out his crucifixion, those mocking him, and probably the Pharisees' that set the whole thing in motion.
Again I think that we need to digest this before we expand upon what he was saying.
I think that we should do this and understand the whole message before we attempt to fill in the gaps with our interpretations.
Otherwise it is like when other people finish what they think that you GOING to say. Finishing your sentences for ya.
Sometimes they may be right, sometimes NOT.Ok, I may be assuming I know what Jesus was saying up on the Cross. But you cant argue the fact that it rained heavily right after the death of Jesus Christ and we all ended up washed in the Blood of Jesus. I just dont believe he came to this earth and suffered and died to save a few of us.
I agree completely with this point of view. I'm just saying that he may not have been referring to that issue in that statement.
taking this statement at face value the least that he had to have been implying. was ??
This day YOU Paradixe.
When we use that basis process with everything that he said first and then expand upon what he said filling in the blanks.
When we expand upon every statement as we come upon them can lead us off target as to what he was saying.
I sure do hope we ARE all gonna be dancing in Heaven! I hope I see you there and that we'll dance on that golden street!
But the Bible says you must be born again.
And I think you DO know what you're doing.
The ones who Jesus asked the Father to forgive for they "know not what they do" didn't believe Jesus was the Son of God. They hadn't yet seen Him resurrect!
Now we have the Bible, we have the witness of the Prophets and others who saw Jesus transfigured, saw Him die and then saw Him after He resurrected; we have the witness of those like Paul and Stephen and John; we have the witness of all Christians since then of how the Holy Spirit leads them. We have been told!
So we are inexcusable! We cannot claim that we "know not what we do". Each person must repent and turn from their wicked ways in order to be saved.
Ah...Universalism, huh?
Or just kicking at the Word?
Jesus died to draw all mankind toward Him, to give us the offer of salvation. Not everyone accepts that offer.
If He wasn't going to give us a choice, there would've been no reason to die on that Cross; God would've just saved everyone no matter what and been done with it long before Jesus was even born. Matter of fact, there would've been no need for Jesus to even BE born! God woulda just said hey there are no rules, just do as you wish.
Your idea doesn't wash, and you know it."Jesus died to draw all mankind toward Him, to give us the offer of salvation. Not everyone accepts that offer."
And none of us have the power to discern if another person has truly accepted that offer or not.
Likewise, none of us, imo, should presume to speculate on whether others are going to heaven or not.
" Each person must repent and turn from their wicked ways in order to be saved."
Wait, I though all we had to do was believe in Jesus to be saved?
Which is it? Belief? Or good works? Or some combination thereof? Your theology seems inconsistent. Please help me reconcile.Scripture says that there will be many that profess that,
"BUT .. I cast out deamons in your name." And Jesus sent them over on the side with the goats.
I think that the key word here is "Truely" believe.
If you truley believe that I am smart you will believe me when I say that the ice out on the lake is too thin for you to go out and play on. That you will fall through the ice if you.
do.
I might get tired of going out there and pulling you out of the water. I may think that it is time for you to learn your lesson? And tell you to not go out there any more.
I might even tell ya that this is the last time that I am going to pull you out. Please believe me when I tell ya that the ice won't hold your weight.
Look at me! I'm walking over the hill now, I can't see ya if you fall through the ice. If You truly believe me you will not walk on the ice!
But on the other hand you "Might" be able to play on the ice without falling through by staying close to the shore line where the ice is thicker.
So .... It doesen't mean that if you play on the ice you are going "certainly" going to drown. You might and might not?You WILL if you go too far. How far is too far?
Humanity likes to test our boundaries. Just like our little children do.Let me put it this way----even the devil believes in Christ. He surely witnessed the fact that Jesus rose again!
But is he saved? Has he given his allegiance to Christ? Duh...NO.
Jesus died to draw all mankind toward Him, to give us the offer of salvation. Not everyone accepts that offer.
NO NO NO!!!
You know better than anyone that Jesus came here to save us. I admit I'm not sure what was meant by the statement "you must be born again" I didnt read that part. I feel in my heart that Jesus came here and saw for hisself all the evil we possess and all Goodness and love mankind has. I think that is why he asked God to forgive us, for we know not what we do. That's how it was when he died, and that's the way it is now. We dont know what we're doing. You act like you're very sure of yourself, but you know you don't know what you're doing any more than the rest of us.
I just noticed Calvary in your eye. Very Good.......
Why don't you know what you're doing? You have a conscience. And you've apparently heard about Jesus. His history and the story of His sacrifice has been known for generations now. How is it that you think you're excuseable?
John 3 tells about being born again. Jesus explained it to a Pharisee, a man who knew the Old Testament Laws and was, basically, stuck in the ritualistic letter of the Law. Nicodemus recognized Jesus as being Godly, but he didn't recognize Him as the Savior that He was. He meant that a person must believe upon and walk in the Spirit of God instead of in good deeds which cannot save you. It's a new beginning; you become a "new creature in Christ" when you repent and accept Him as your Savior.What's troubling about your way of reasoning is that you stick to the very strict teachings of the Old Testament when it suits you, while applying practical ignorance of very explicit commandments in the New Testament when you'd rather just ignore them.
You yourself have not repented in a way that is meaningful according to the Bible (i.e. you're still in your second marriage), yet you're very, very anxious to threaten everyone else who live in a state of sin that you find distasteful with eternal damnation.
This is the reason your way of thinking is going the way of the dinosaur, Brenda. Your attitude is literally dying off, because it's patently hypocritical. All of your hosannas and hellfire-and-damnation threats are being viewed within the context in which they're being delivered, from someone who has no moral authority to make them.Still you refuse to understand.
What's wrong, livelonger?
Are you afraid of becoming a "new creature in Christ"?
The "way of the dinosaurs"? ...
I enjoy being around old wisdom. He is the "Ancient of days" and He never changes.I will never understand your logic. But, as I made clear earlier, I won't have to, and, fortunately, fewer and fewer people in the younger generations will have to, either.
There were people like you who argued that the Eternal One supported segregation and racism, too. Wonder what happened to them?So, instead of searching your mind, heart, and conscience for the deep Truths that we all need,
you enjoy mimicking people like Obama who's leading young people astray by calling their parents' and grandparents' ideas "old" and "worn-out". Do I have that right?
Have you had any parent or grandparent or elder person of some type that tried to teach you about the Lord? Have you ever been to a Christian-based church? I'm just curious....You don't know the values of the people who brought me up. Suffice it to say they have nothing in common with you except that they're old.
Let me ask you a question: was your first husband gay? Is that why you left him and why you have a particular axe to grind against gay people? Or is it just that you are living in mortal fear of your own indelible sins, and gays are just an easy target to project on?
And I know your particular perversion of Christianity has never had anything but contempt for Jews, but don't question my beliefs, and don't bother trying to convert me to yours.
I truly believe that prophesy concerning all things about Jesus were fulfilled exactly as he said that they were going to be. When we believe this, our understanding of scripture take on a different light.
The disciples were told to go out and deliver this message. These verses always seemed to sound urgent having a lot of hurry up to them. They only had about 100 years to finish their work.
All of the Old Testament prophets were sent to that Hebrew nation.
That Hebrew Nation that ceased to exist around 135- 138 AD
It makes sense to me that all of the prophesy concerning them would be fulfilled before that Hebrew Nation ceased to exist.
I agree with the teachings of the church that the spirit of these things, the lessons to be learned by them do transcend the centuries, but the content of the message was to THAT group of people.
Believing this causes me to understand all of scripture a little differently than I did before.
The four BEASTS that are described in Daniels' visions were doing Gods will. So I do not see the "BEASTS" as being an evil thing the way the word implies to most Christians.
The BEAST described in Rev. 13 also is doing Gods will.
It will appear to be so legitimate that it may fool even the Elect if that is possible.
It will/did caused much confusion in the word of God." Didn't make it right what Jacob did, but God knew that Jacob had a fervency that He could use to further His kingdom. "
And so, for God, the ends justify the means?
That's an interesting interpretation of scripture.God is God and can do whatever He wants to.
He also knew Jacob's heart, knew that Jacob would serve Him.So God approves of lying cheats? As long as they're lying and cheating in His name? I'm not buying any rationalization today, thanks.
No, God doesn't approve of lying cheats.
You're ignoring the intent of the heart.
King David was also a man who did wrongs. Yet God called him "a man after God's own heart". David backslid a few times, but later repented. Repentance, from the heart, is the ticket."No, God doesn't approve of lying cheats.
You're ignoring the intent of the heart."
So Jacob didn't intend to lie and cheat his way into his brother's birthright?
I do not believe homosexuals have a problem with most Christians, only it seems the ones who have a problem with them. That's why there are so many homosexuals out there who ARE Christians, and have no problem with Christianity in general.
And also, I think most Christians in general do not ave a problem with homosexuals, as many are accepting and loving for exactly who they are.Aww that sounds sooooo nice.
Very tempting.
Just like your Tom Cruise avatar.....very tempting 'cause I admire his talent so much and his face is awesome, but he has a very anti-Christian religion, so I have to close my eyes and remember that there's a wolf in sheep's clothing there.Hi all.
I'm back to add my two-pennyworth again. Like I said the other day, I had a Christian up-bringing. I went to church and sang the hymns along with everyone else and I even BELIEVED what the bible said. that is until I grew up spiritually and learned to think for myself, instead of being brainwashed with what I consider to be B.S. Come on Brenda.... Did a whale REALLY swallow Jonah and three days later spit him out alive? Is that physically possible? If someone was to tell that story today who would believe it? Everyone would say he's been hit with the doolalley stick and he was making it up. Why do you believe it just because it happened 2000+ years ago? Its the same with the virgin birth. In the last book of the bible 'A revelation by John' How old was John when he wrote that? If a man of his age wrote something like that today we'd say he had dementia. A lot of the bible is good, I'll give you that. We'd be a pretty messed up lot without it, but I really believe that a lot of it has been lost in translation- Hebrew to Greek to 'olde English'- all this 'thee' and 'thaa' and 'verily' etc. Jesus never said that, so why do people quote it? MY God gave me common sense, and the ability to rationalise. I've tried on many occasions to find the Jesus you worship, but all I can think is my soul must be lost to the dark side, He don't want to know me!
My view on this homosexuality thing is whose fault is it if they are gay? who made them? Are we not all God's children? God loves us all, unconditionally, just like we love our own offspring unconditionally. What I can't stand is the hypocricy, ie the Catholic church, with their laws on divorce, contraception, homosexuality. These so-called 'Men of God' bugger little boys, yet condemn someone who is trying to control the size of their family. Would God be happy to see young boys' lives destroyed by these perverts? Would God be happy to see a woman stay with a man who beats her to within an inch of her life? Homosexuality might not be normal (as in sex to procreate) and I can't personally understand it, but if one of my sons were to come to me and tell me he was gay I certainly wouldn't turn my back on him. If God is the loving father we all believe him to be, he wouldn't turn his back either.Who said anything about anyone turning their back on anyone?
Teaching someone the facts of life and the facts of the Bible is guiding them, not turning your back on them. Rebuking a child or someone else you care about when they're headed for hell IS Love.
And yes I believe the big fish really did swallow Jonah.
And no we're not all God's children until we're born again by accepting the Son of God as our Savior.
No I'm not Catholic, and am not trying to uphold the pedophilia of SOME or ANY priests. Those occurrences are just as bad as any other perversion.
I'm sorry you think your "soul is lost to the dark side", but you do know there's a Way out of that, right?Brenda - whilst I respect your beliefs (you are entitled to them) My common sense tells me that a 'big fish' cannot swallow someone whole and spit him out alive. A woman cannot have a baby without human sperm. Have you not stopped to think that someone, somewhere way back in time, found herself pregnant, unmarried, and to stop herself getting stoned to death (for her sins) made up this story of 'God' giving her his holy seed? It's a lot more logical and feasible in the reality of things. The bible is a book. So is Aesop's fables.
"And no we're not all God's children until we're born again by accepting the Son of God as our Savior."
A few years ago I was driving a Preacher and his wife to the airport. As we were riding down Brooklyns' Ocean Parkway; a beautiful 12 lane tree lined highway; we saw a large number of Hasidic Jews walking and sitting on the benches in the mediums on both sides of the highway. Alot of them were coming from temple or markets or what ever they do on a saturday afternoon. They were dressed up and smiling and pushing strollers and their other children were running ahead of them laughing and playing.
I don't remember the conversation I was having with the Preacher and his wife, I just know it had to be a very pleasent conversation because I really liked the Preacher and his wife, and I was taking them to the airport where they would board a plane to Barbados for a vacation. As we were riding and talking and laughing and looking at all the Hasidics dress up and the men walking proudly down the Parkway with their beautiful fur trim hats on, and their children playing and laughing around them; the preachers' wife said "they're all going to hell" with a wave of her hand back and forth as we rode past these people. "They'er not saved, they're all going to hell" with another callous wave of her hand. I remember looking out the window at an old lady walking behind her family. She looked like your grandmother or my grandmother and I felt such horror at the preachers' wife statement, I asked her "what about that old lady there? She looks like she never hurt anyone in her life." The preachers wife said it doesn't matter, they are all going to hell. They killed Jesus Christ.
I can say that day and that conversation changed me. I would never again look at a Christian the same way since that conversation. I guess I was born again in my own way....wow! that must have hurt...I've come to realize now that I really never know anyone anymore...just me...
Like I said, I really liked the preacher and his wife. But after that statement I started asking the preacher and other members of the church hard questions. They gave basically the same answer. I was wrong in my thinking and there was something I had to do to make myself better instead of them having to rethink any of their positions in any way. I didn't keep my custodian job much longer after I started asking questions.
Of course a better approach would have been to have asked you to stop the car so that she could speak with those people, but it looks like you had a denomination in the car, rather than a pastor.
Folk in religion can actually miss the point, and look inward rather than out ward.
The body of Christ is the ONLY group of people who exist for their non members!
I hope your walk with Christ was not damaged by your experience with those Pharisees...
Stay Blessed,
JohnI like what you said here. Why dont people like like you preach to the preachers a little more. I dont think they realize how much they hurt their cause. Like you said, they are chasing more people away from Jesus then they are bringing to him.
Problem is, when people like me preach to the preachers, they throw us out, just as they did Christ.
Christ said, Will I find faith in the world when I return, it was a rhetorical question, He knew that He would NOT find HIS kind of faith here.
Not all preachers are bad, but it is a high risk profession, where you can get bogged down in being a good pastor, rather than being a good believer.
But no problem, Christ has hidden His disciples in amongst the followers and 'tares' of churchianity, and will separate the sheep form the goats when the time comes to do so.
Thanks for posting!
John
LOL
Those Pharisees have it wrong. Right John? The only genuinely unforgivable sin is to speak against the Holy Spirit, and atheists are "afraid to speak against the Holy Spirit":
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/25714
Still - if you can follow them to their hub and provoke them into doing so:
http://hubpages.com/hub/creation-v-evolution
You will be able to "allow other believers to see where you are at eternally"
Which is important. So - just to clear this up - Jews - not going to hell for killing Jesus - unbelievers who speak against the Holy spirit - going to hell. LOLOL
John is a genuine loving Christian.
No morals. None.
Mark, you missed a few links to the body of my work here, but thanks for the free plugs.
I cannot help the fact that you are obsessed with recanting the same old tripe that you post all over the forums, and I will not be bothered by it.
But thanks for the reply, whenever you attack me my readings go up, keep up the good work, you drive folk to my pages.
JohnMy pleasure John. Here is a quote from your "work."
"My God (the God that PREDESTINED me to salvation ) is only a BRUTAL MONSTER to those who disagree (with my doctrine of predestination)."
Interesting - only those who disagree with you huh?
Did you get the friendly homosexual to change his sinful ways yet?I've changed my evil ways...I dont kill spiders anymore, I try not to lie Cheat Steal Murder. So I think that about covers whatever sins I might be guilty of.
Mark.You forgot to add a link, so I have no idea where you took this from, but you ADDED to whatever I said I would warrant, seems you will do anything you can to try and look like MR BIG....
Pathetic.That quote was taken from one of your rants about how upsetting it is for you that some people do not believe in your god - where you agree that your god is a brutal monster unless one suspends disbelief and adopts your doctrine of selectively predestined salvation. Taken from your "work" here, John. A direct quote from one of your hubs in fact.
Sorry if me quoting your words seems to make me look like MR BIG, but I did not add anything. I am sure you can find where you said this.
"My God (the God that PREDESTINED me to salvation ) is only a BRUTAL MONSTER to those who disagree (with my doctrine of predestination)."Mark, there is nothing wrong with the quote you edited to suit your own conception of why God is a brute, you simply reinforce the article.... ergo.... you consider God a brute because YOU disagree with what He states.
My 8 year old daughter has behaved the same, when her mother refuses her permission to do something that she should not do, she will come into the room and shout "I DON'T LIKE MUMMY, I HATE HER" and at the time she probably really means it.
I have to correct her also, or she would become a spoilt child who always threw a tantrum when she was not allowed to get her own way.
Who corrects you Mark?You certainly do not have the authority to do so, John. Nor do you speak for any god. Attempting to go about correcting me is exactly why we come onto conflict, John. You have no authority here. None.
Speaking to me as though I am a naughty 8-year-old is why we clash so much. You have no authority. You John, you. I am speaking to you. You. You do not speak for a god.
And I would appreciate it if you stopped bearing false witness against me also. I really don't appreciate being lied about. I wouldn't say I am outraged, but this behavior on your part is clearly an attempt to provoke me.
That quote "My God (the God that PREDESTINED me to salvation ) is only a BRUTAL MONSTER to those who disagree (with my doctrine of predestination)." is taken exactly word for word with no editing by me. Here is a snapshot of the page in question.
Please stop lying about me and please do not speak to me as though I was a child. I am not your child and you have no authority here. You are not speaking for a god. God does not exist. I am speaking to you John - you.
Thank you.Mark,
Here is the WHOLE section of what you quoted, for like many folk you have taken ONE section that suited YOUR opinion and presented it out of context:
The problem with PREDESTINATION has always been that the opponents of this doctrine always insist that IF there is such a thing, then it makes God into a brutal and unfair God.
But what if PREDESTINATION is completely reconciled with God's utter fairness?
What if God, FOR GOOD (justifiable ) REASONS predestined some to salvation while not predestining others ?
The opposers say that I am (by preaching predestination) making God into a brutal monster - but I am not calling God a brutal monster - THEY ARE.
Predestination does not make God into brutal monster to me!
My God (the God that PREDESTINED me to salvation ) is only a BRUTAL MONSTER to those who disagree (with my doctrine of predestination).
They call my God a brutal monster , and then they accuse me of making God Himself into a brutal monster.
They are actually (therefore ) accusing me of making THEIR GOD into a brutal monster, and that is why they are so outraged.
For some reason or other, they innately conclude that if the saved are PREDESTINED to salvation..... they either might be or must be LEFT OUT , and thus, they are outraged (not just in disagreement - have you noticed? ).
I don't know about their god, whether he is brutal monster or not.
If THEIR GOD is not a brutal monster, then they have nothing to worry about, for certainly a "fair God " will gladly receive and affirm such piously disposed persons as themselves, who have Both WILLED and RAN with ALL THEIR MIGHT.
So, there is nothing to worry about for either of us........... right?
I'll get my salvation as a "gift " and they'll get their's as a reward for how hard they tried.
Does that make more sense now all those others who may have read your (out of context) quote?
As you read the article (and I am delighted that you did, if only to find fault where you could envision it)you will also know that this is not MY writing, but a dear friends in the States, a published author and a believer for 35 years.
I obviously agree with his content though, to have hubbed it.
So I will ask again.....
WHO DOES HAVE THE RIGHT TO CORRECT YOU?
JohnYou do not John. You are not speaking for an invisible super Daddy. You have no authority.
Cannot apologize for accusing me of adding to your text huh?
Now I didn't add - I took it out of context because I did not include the entire rant. Which in no way changed the meaning.
Dear me.You are right Mark, you did not add, you subtracted, and what you subtracted was designed to mislead and leave one with an incomplete knowledge of what was actually stated.
I call that setting out to deceive.
Now please answer the question:
WHO DOES HAVE THE RIGHT TO CORRECT YOU?
You keep telling me who doesn't, but WHO DOES?
Answer that one question Mark....
It will tell the world who you are.You do not John. You have no authority. You do not have any right to correct me at all, and seem to not understand that - when you attempt to do so - you cause conflict.
Your god does not exist - so that cannot correct me. Nor you apparently by the way you behave.
I did not set out to deceive and the meaning of your words is the same when taken with the rest of your rant or not.
What was stated is clear. Your god is a monster - unless you suspend disbelief and accept your doctrine of selective, predestined salvation.
Still cannot apologize huh? Even though you clearly accused me of adding words that you did not write?
Dear me.....and you still have not answered my question...
You keep stating who does not have the right, but please tell me...
WHO DOES HAVE THE RIGHT TO CORRECT YOU?Dear me. Do you think shouting the question in red ink will make me answer this leading, assumptive question? Ask a reasonable question and I will answer.
No one has the "right" to correct me. Plenty have the power to punish me.
The same as you, John. If you park your car where it is not "allowed," you will have a tax levied on you as punishment. The same as me.
- Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago0
I believe God created the heaven and earth.
I believe God formed Adam from the dust of the earth.
I believe the fish swallowed Jonah.
I believe Moses parted the sea.
I believe Noah saved his life and 7 other lives from the Great Flood.
I believe God destroyed Sodom.
I believe God made Balaam's donkey talk.
I believe Jesus was born of the virgin Mary.
I believe He grew up and died on the Cross for your sins and mine.
I believe He rose again! Hallelujah and Praise God!!!
I believe He has chosen the "foolish things of the world to confound the 'wise'".
I believe!!
'There are none so blind as those who will not see'
I believe a divine entity created the universe and everything in it.
I call this divine entity 'God'
I believe Jesus was a good 'human' man who walked on this Earth 2000 years ago.
I believe Jesus had a vision of a better world for us all to live in
I believe the books of the 'New testament' were written by the followers of Jesus.
I believe in the power of love
I believe that we should treat others how we ourselves want to be treated.
I believe in tolerance and forgiveness
I belive in a personal relationship with my creator
I belive religion is the root of ALL EVIL
AMENI believe you are confused and confounded. ha
As are we all..
God aint goina let any of us know everythingI believe you are blind Brenda. Maybe you havent yet 'found yourself' and that's why you put so much faith in an old book. Lots of things in life are hard to deal with, but the majority of rational thinking adults don't rely on old myths to see them through their life. I have my own beliefs and my own personal relationship with MY God. I thank him every day for the blessings he bestows on me my family. I don't blame him when things go wrong in my life.
I'm not saying you're wrong to have your faith - we are all entitled to believe what we want, and if it helps you that's fine. Over the past two millennia, millions of human beings have been brutally killed in the name of Christianity. Do you believe that that is what Jesus or God wanted? The Spanish slaughtered millions in central America - in the name of Christianity, they did it all across the world. Who gave them the right to do that? God? Isn't murder a sin? So much for 'let him without sin cast the first stone' You say you're a Christian but you're not a catholic - what's the difference? Aren't catholics Christians then? King Henry 8th of England reformed the churches during his reign, abolishing the Catholic teachings just so that he could get divorced from his wife. What do you think God thought about that? Some mortal being upsetting the equilibrium of Christianity? But its been allowed to continue as it is. But by saying you're not a catholic means you are condoning King Henry. People follow like sheep. People are brainwashed into fear because they feel that if they dare to have their own thoughts about God, or stop believing in the bible, they will burn in hell for eternity. The whole thing is a sham. Twisted and perverted to suit the needs of the infuential immorals of the world. It's a far cry from the original teachings of Jesus.And you may be right. Or she may be. We don't know either way.
Belief /= knowledge.
- Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago0
The difference is that I'm simply a Christian, a follower of Christ who believes the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New. I'm not interested in following the Catholic Church or any man-made church, or any denomination, really. Although I do believe the teachings of the Baptist Churches are about as close as any denomination can get to true Christianity.
Yes, I go to church sometimes. It's good to fellowship with other Believers. I love to see souls saved. But both those things can be found outside church too, and I don't think a person has to go to church to be saved or to stay on the right path, because the true Church is in the hearts/souls of all Christians. But church is usually where one will find the teachings and encouragement and Love and yes Judgement that is needed in order to grow Spiritually.
I believe there are Christians in the Catholic Church, but I don't believe the Church itself is necessarily Christian; I don't believe in the set-up of that Church nor its Catechisms.
And it's becoming increasingly hard to find a Protestant Church that follows Biblical Truths without compromising something.
These days, I'm rarely able to go to church because of personal circumstances. But anyway, I miss going! Being in a church congregation has a renewing, edifying effect on a Christian, when the Spirit is there, and when we take the Spirit in with us!
I've been to churches that preach wrong things, so I never went back. I've been to churches that really do the best they can.
I suppose there is no perfect one.
I'm actually still a member on the roster of a certain church. But the authority figures in that church weren't transparent on some subjects like I believe it should be.....
Sorry Friendlyword; I ment to say welcome back ... before I closed last post
I don't go to church Brenda. I used to, but I don't agree with all the hypocricy that goes on. there are some things in the bible that insult my intelligence as a rational adult. and if 'all scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching' then I'm sorry but I'm going to have to give it a miss. I have faith and I believe in a creator, and I try to live my life respecting others, but all this Christian fellowship stuff is not for me. I have a brother who lives in Canada who is a Mormon and there's a lot of stuff they do that I don't agree with. They call themselves Christians but don't follow the teachings of Jesus. The Jehovah's witnesses are the same. They would rather let a child die then let it have a blood transfusion, just because they follow some misconstrued quote from the scriptures. It's madness. I don't know how people can allow themselves to be brainwashed like that, and its my belief that this is the work of the evil forces.
No, not just Christians but any right thinking person will think homosexuality is unnatural. A hole is a hole is a hole but there would not have been an arsehole if you did not have to defecate. There would not have been a vagina if you did not have to procreate. Sex is for pleasure no doubt and any hole, even a makeshift hole with your hands cupped would do the job admirably. but the pleasure is for egging you on to procreate. If no procreation is involved in it, no sexual urge would have been there in the first place.
However, while I defend with my life your right to be a homosexual, I must also be given the same right by you to express opinion about not accepting it!Damn right. Nothing in the bible about accepting other people's behavior is there? You tell them what you think. That will not cause any fights will it?
What a loving, caring belief system you have. Dear Mark, as always, Christian-baiting and it is his prerogative/privilege to do so. There may come a day when he will realize that he is indulging in futile exercises and doesn't really have to to it.
In this present topic, I have not said anything about Christian beliefs but he had to go find some excuse to read something which is not there and to react to it.
Don't I love him!Odd - this is the topic:
"Why do Christians have a problem with Homosexuals?"yea the topic is as you say but my reply that you have quoted doesn't say anything about Christian beliefs. I would have thought you were replying specifically to my observation.
Sorry - Your profile states: "I love Jesus, my wife and the world in that order" and the topic is "Why do Christians have a problem with Homosexuals?"
I just jumped to the conclusion that you were speaking as a Christian and answering the question, when it appears you were just speaking as a "right thinking person," and your irrational beliefs have nothing to do with it.
My mistake. I apologize.Good Lord, Mark
I never thought I could elicit an apology from you. I am honored . Really!
Lets be friends, ok?
The bottom line is that:
a) Homosexuals are naughty shameful people!!
b) Lesbians however, are simply WONDERFUL!Ha Ha
I don't think the Bible says anything about getting a bit of lesbo action, so it must be ok.It also says a LOT about divorce. Many times it's explicitly condemned, and divorcees are instructed to return to their first spouse in order to repent.
Why do Christians NOT have a problem with divorce?We do have a problem with it.
I've explained this before. You so conveniently forget. And you refuse to even contemplate the subject of forgiveness, for both homosexuality and for divorce and other sins. Because you have an agenda, an agenda to call what is right wrong and what is wrong, right.
I've dared you to make a thread about divorce, yet you don't. Wonder why that is? Maybe because you're not interested in really discussing it, but are only focused on shouting out about the current fad. And indeed how many people will visit the thread? Several! But probably only those who, like you, want to trash my views.
This discussion here keeps going on and on and on, have you noticed? It's all about that "healthy debate", ya know, those "teachable moments" that your dear Obama keeps pointing toward, while he continues to prove to be totally unteachable himself. THIS topic sells, doesn't it, livelonger? All the airtime it gets only serves to further Obama's agenda.
When you and Mark get that petition up to outlaw divorce, I'll sign it. But again, remember, if we're cleaning house, your homosexual advocacy will be swept away too.Laws banning gay marriage already exist in the majority of state constitutions and there is a federal law against it. There is NO law against divorce.
Too bad there are way too many Christian hypocrites for you to be ever called on your bluff to support a ban on divorce. Of course, looking at your own personal history demonstrates that you would never want to ban divorce - if you had, you'd be back in your first husband's arms, wouldn't you? You very much support divorce, and you fully expect the laws of this country, your church, and all of your family to embrace you as a divorcee. You don't feel that gay people should be afforded the same.
Divorce, despite being condemned in the Christian Bible 5 times, is treated like a "mild" sin, certainly legal and sanctioned by the English churches, like swearing or saying a white lie. Meanwhile, homosexuality, while never mentioned once by Jesus Christ, is considered a paramount sin, deserving of massive social and legal opprobrium from old Christians.
Starting a thread on divorce is pointless; the Dominionists would avoid it like all the subjects that they're uncomfortable with because of their own complicity. They're far more comfortable bashing other people's sins, which is why the mere mention of homosexuality brings them flocking in droves.
I couldn't help but notice you didn't answer my question of a couple of days ago: was your first husband gay?No my first husband wasn't gay, as far as I know and from all evidence.
No I don't have a bone to pick with some homosexual who abused me, or anything like that.
I simply know that homosexuality is abominable at the core. And I do not want it legalized in my country, mostly for the sake of innocent minds who are being force-fed the concepts of "diversity" and "tolerance" by people who continue to call right wrong and wrong right.
Christians in America are voters too, or at least have the right to vote just like anyone else. And speak out. And hold Office. And all the rights.
Homosexuality is wrong at the core; so, actually, paralleling it to divorce isn't even right.
And anyone, including other Christians, who say a Christian should have no influence or say in politics is full of it. This nation has set a standard in the world for right and wrong, and we're quickly becoming sub-standard in our laws since the likes of Obama got in office, and Kevin Jennings, and Arne Duncan, and Pelosi, etc.
There ARE people who've shown the right way for any person to deal with homosexual temptations. A woman recently here had a thread about it. And even she got either blasted or ignored, and the thread is gone, apparently, shoved down under the blatancy of threads like this one, powered by the energizer bunny of the homosexual agenda.
You don't want acceptance as a person, livelonger.
You want Nation-wide legal sanction for your sins.
Instead of looking to the only One who can help you with that.Your first statement is one of the reasons why religions of any kind should not have influence in politics.
Claiming to "simply know" isn't valid in politics.Bull.
Everyone has a conscience.
We ALL "simply know" the facts of life.
Trying to legalize sodomy isn't gonna change that; it can only temporarily hide it.Once again, making the claim of having a conscience and knowing the facts of life doesn't cut it in politics. I would suspect the same could be said about a divorced Christian, too. Does that require a conscience?
You do realize heterosexuals can also engage in sodomy right?
Does your hatred extend to them as well?Gee Ron, is that true?
I wasn't born yesterday; I do know the facts of life and human behavior.
Yeah, the laxness of many people has led to this, the laxness of divorce laws too; and allowance of the porn industry in our society.
But that doesn't mean I'm gonna just lie down and let the whole machine keep rollin' over me and over my country.
I, for one, am not under Obama's "guilt trip" thumb.No, the guilt you feel seems to stem from the fact that you know that divorce is a condemnable sin in Christianity, yet you got one anyway. You console yourself with the belief that you've atoned for your divorce, but deep down inside you know you can read, and the Bible says the only way you can repent is to return to your first husband.
Trying to distract attention from that by focusing on gays and lesbians is classical projection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projectionI'm not a Christian. I don't feel any guilt for violating Christian principles regarding homosexuality. I am completely comfortable with my sexual orientation and the validity of my long-term relationship, and my religion fully sanctions it, too.
You *are* Christian. You *are* aware of Christian principles regarding divorce, no matter how much you try to obfuscate or ignore it here. You *are* aware that you are unwilling to do the only thing sanctioned by your religion to repent for this sin. You *are* aware of what your religion says are the consequences of not doing that.
Who needs to project?Wow - I see Brenda is still pushing her pro-divorce agenda. Any fool can see that divorce has been the downfall of America and here she is flaunting her divorced state once again.
Maybe that explains her envy toward her moral superior - The happily married family man in the White House.
Wait, envy is a sin.
Aaaaaaaaargh!Yes, she was just on here a couple of months ago shoving down our throats that she and her second husband were "celebrating" 10 years together! And then she actively courted praise from everyone.
No wonder America is ruined.
This pro-adultery agenda has gone far enough I think. I told Brenda what my great grandmother would have done to a divorced woman preacher in her village and Brenda got very upset.
My Great Grandmother was a real Christian and would never in a hundred years have allowed a divorced woman preacher to stay around.Haha, true. Although your great-grandmother, I have to say, sounds like a frightening woman.
Ah...and there you go with the argument that secular people aren't responsible for their behavior, while Christians are held to a higher standard.
Sorry, livelonger, but that doesn't wash. I'm a Christian, but I'm also a taxpaying citizen of the United States, and as such, am perfectly within my rights to engage in the battle for moral laws in my Nation.
So, as said before, if you or anyone makes an agenda and succeeds in outlawing divorce and making those laws retroactive, then I might have to go to "divorce prison" or something. LOL
And what prison would you have to go to, livelonger?
As far as my spiritual state, that's between me and God.
You yourself said YOU have no responsibility in that respect, since you don't even claim to be a Believer. I'm not runnin' around advocating to make divorce into a beautiful "diverse" "tolerant" thing. I have no agenda to sanction immorality.If this country were to turn into a Christian theocracy, I'd hightail it out of here. The only person that would be out of here quicker than me would be you and the rest of the divorced Dominionists.
I am not secular, as I've said before, but I do support secular laws and the clear separation of church and state. Religion should be a personal, private matter.
But, I do take issue with your last statement. You do flaunt your immoral (technically adulterous, according to fundamentalist Christianity) relationship. You happily touted that you had been married for 10 years to your second husband, and then expected everyone to congratulate you for it.
So, yet again, you are guilty of exactly those sins you project onto others.
Ummmmmmm, you have personal knowledge of Mr. and Mrs. Obama's sexual preferences?
Do tell.
It's just kind of difficult to keep up on who you are directing your holy rath toward. Is it people who engage in sodomy or people who want to live in committed long term legally-
sanctioned relationships who happen to have a natural attraction to members of the same sex?
The number of people living within your moral circle seems to be incredibly small.I dunno Ron.
You'd have to ask people like Larry Sinclair and the gay guys in Jeremiah Wright's "church" about Obama's sexual preferences.....
oh wait....the main one is....gulp.....dead by unknown perpetrator/s....
Very convenient that nobody will transparently clarify Obama's past in so many areas.....hmmm...Or I could ask the openly bi-sexual (or Sodomite if you prefer)
King James.
Yes, that King James.Nice try. I don't buy it, Ron.
And even if King James was bisexual or homosexual or whatever, at least he had the courage to approve a Bible that speaks against it. According to you, he must've had the power to have the written word changed....right? Then why didn't he strike out all the verses that speak against homosexuality?
It doesn't wash, Ron.But that is the basis of your religion Brenda and it makes total sense.
"Do as I say - not as I do."Sin in his mind was only sin when practiced by others. Hypocricy is a necessary step in accepting many dogmatic beliefs.
obviously there are christians who are homosexuals. we could start with the world's largest religion. people choose to believe what they want to believe.
http://www.soulforce.org/article/homose … -christianVery true. It's safe to say that those Christians who have a major problem with homosexuality are better classified as Dominionists, rather than Christians. Their two favorite obsessions: gays and Obama.
ha, I love new words. I'll have to remember this one.
I find these threads funny at times. I can't understand how the hypocrisy is not clearly evident. christians aren't supposed to judge, I think everyone knows that verse, judge not lest ye be judged.
of course someone will come along and say that's not what it really means...
the 'plank in their eye' is skewing their perception.
Twisted.
And let that group explain the murderer John Wayne Gacy.
And others.I didn't read the whole thing. but that's my point, Brenda. people believe what they want to believe. religions make the bible say what they want it to say. why does it really matter how someone else lives?
That's up to them!
But when someone tries to make it a law that I (and other conservatives) HAVE TO SANCTION immorality by recognizing gay "marriage" that takes away people's rights, as well as is an attempt to impose immorality directly into the institution of traditional marriage.
But it doesn't matter. If they can't invade traditional marriage, they'll accept "civil unions" for a while, until everyone is worn out by their blatant assaults on everyone's sensibilities and give up. Many "Christians" have already fallen down and let 'em run over 'em without even a fight.Brenda, nobody is trying to make you go to a gay wedding and wish the couple well.
You're still free to condemn it all you want; fee speech and all that.
Nobody's going to be "invading" your marriage, or mine, or anybody else's.
You're not going to wake up one morning and find your marriage bed infested with sodomites.
Nobody is trying to make you like gay marriage, or even approve of it.
All that the pro-gay-marriage folks want is to be able to live their lives and be treated as equal citizens under the law, whether you or I like it, hate it, or don't give a darn about it. It's none of your business if two strangers want to get married, and it's none of their business if you want to get divorced. In the one case, it's between them and their God, and in your case, it's between you and yours (they may or may not be the same God; we don't know).
You don't have to approve of gay marriage. Nobody wants you to.
All they want is to take away your power to stop gay marriage, that is, to impose your interpretation of scripture (or your morals, or your idea of what's okay and what's icky) on them.
If two men get married, who goes to Hell? You?I'd like to second that giant green checkmark!
- Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago0
This thread would be better titled
Why do many homosexuals have a problem with forgiven Christians?
Maybe I should resurrect the heterophobia thread.....
At least there, round two (or three, or four) would have a proper forum....what is forgiven christians?..i have heard about Catholics , protestantism .
Just simply born again Christians.
It's a small group, apparently.
One that often has to defend itself against both religious people and secular people.oh okie..i got that..but why you need to defend it from religious people..i didn't get that?
Religious people aren't always Christians.
Many of them are politically correct drones who go with the flow of every fad that comes along, even if it's totally against what the Bible says.No, she does not engage in auto-ear-otic activities.
LOL
You're actually quite good at sarcastic humor; that one really is kinda funny!
At least it gave me a well-needed laugh, after perusing the internet and seeing how wide-spread the homosexual agenda is in America's schools. I about vomited.
I would much rather be the butt of your jokes and anyone else's, than to see vivid illustrations of what crap our children are being seduced into.
Time's a'comin' to take a more firm stand, and that's my goal.
This place here is over-run with mindless conscience-less droning from the far Left. Sorry if the truth offends your non-sensibilities, but whatever; because if it weren't for those circumstances, I'd really enjoy chatting with you!Good for you, Brenda. Maybe you can band up with the segregationists, witch-burners, anti-Semites and other groups that have similarly used religion and 'think about the children!' as a pretext and create a real movement!
Does it even enter the socio-pathic brain that other socio-paths will read their dribble and go out and kill a homosexual? Beside feeling fulfilled they get to feel more like apart of the heterosexual world that most likely wants nothing to do with him. I dont know why the people here on hubpages allow people to print calls to commit murder. I guess most people are to smart and cowardly to outright murder people themselves; so they sit by and watch the true believer call for murder. God and crazy people are such convenient tools for clever cowards to use. And the rest of you sit by and let it happen because you're relieved the insanity is not directed at you. I'm gonna speak up whenever I see it. I hope most of you will never have to face the possibility of being murdered by sanctioned killers. But then again you never know who will be the next target of a maniacs hate.
Where do you see anybody suggesting that folk need to kill anybody, homosexual or otherwise?
I have not seen that (though I have not read the entire thread, so correct me if I am wrong)I see folk concerned that their life choices are threatened by the homosexual political agenda, which seems to require that no disagreement with the homosexual agenda is permitted.
Everyone has the right in our secular society to do as they please within the law, so please lets allow that believers also have the right to speak out against things they find distasteful and immoral.
That's called freedom of thought and speech.
Tolerance needs to be a two way street.************************************
There is also a law called "Hate speech"
Why don't you guys let your "Light" shine instead of stating your dislikes.
If you really follow Yahshua (Jesus to you) He didn't go around saying mean things. He said things to only those who approached him.
God gave us the law of liberty. The Will, choicesTell that to somebody who needs to hear it.
Like Friendlyword, whose insinuating hate speech is appalling to anyone with eyes to see. Unlike you apparently, since you ignored his hogwash and tag-teamed upon his victims.
No one has "called for murder" like he insinuates.
Jesus did indeed approach people with the word. So go back to your Bible 'cause you need to re-read it.
I personally will "state my dislikes" anytime I wish, and you can stop trying to take away that freedom any ol' time, okey dokey?"I personally will "state my dislikes" anytime I wish, and you can stop trying to take away that freedom any ol' time, okey dokey?"
Amen to that. I have never like the concept of "hate-speech," or "hate crimes." People do speak hatefully, no question, and do commit crimes with hatred as a motive, but words without action are just words, and crimes are crimes, no matter why they're committed.
If a guy kills me because he wants my wallet, I'm just as dead, and no deader, than if he killed me because he thought I was gay (or straight, depending on whom the killer hates).******************************
I know the word. Unfortunately you read the Book of Matthew that was first written in Hebrew in "The Gospel of Hebrews" translated to Latin and Greek, than English.
Yahshua only approached someone once. The money changers. That was because they defiled the Temple.
The other times He only set someone straight who approached and tested Him.
Where is the turning of the cheek?.
I know you can say what you want. BUT IT IS NOT like Yahshua.
Saying that you are of God and acting another way, is taking God's name in vain.
Oh that's right "Christians" can do or say what they want and still go to heaven. You can even worship the messenger instead of God.
You said I better read the Bible? Try it yourself sometimes.. Right, so, you're saying you know Him -because He IS the word, not the bible...
Secondly, are you saying you know Him better than Brenda? So, would He approve of you reading His fortune or aligning His Sefirot? Perhaps He gave you insight to His Ein Sof. Or better you believe He did those works through secret teachings of the Essenes? So, how "like" Him are you? Seems your plank is casting its shadow -yet again- on the Light.
PS.
Genuinely sorry to hear about your leg accident.
Regards to a full, healthy and speedy recovery.____________________________________
Brenda told me to read the Bible (she indicates she knows it more)
I said I know the word, meaning scripture
Because I know how to balance the opposing opposites of my mind does not mean I am someone God does not listen to. That's your judgment not His.
You exalt yourself to the throne of God by judging me and all because you lack understanding. And again, it's between us. You are always getting in the middle.
We have free will and choice. Let me live my life, you live yours.
Your being sorry about my leg is insincere. But know this. It is no big deal. It is a break in a slim bone, I'll heal.
Don't be too happy about it or it could happen to you.now you know me as well and my thoughts? how lovely.
--in spite of your ridiculous internet jabber, yes, yes, you definitely know the Word! Even set up your own sympathy forum on the internet. Well done. Such humility.
--as for the rhetoric:
Well if you can do it all, why do you need Him? His words say it is evil to do those things. He said it, not me, not paul.
You are judged by the words out of your own mouth. Remember, "...It is what comes out of a person that defiles them." -Y`shua. Yes, your life is yours, so choose your life wisely. Eternal Death and Eternal Life are in the words from your very mouth...
enjoy the ibuprofen
Where do you see anybody suggesting that folk need to kill anybody, homosexual or otherwise?
"Time's a'comin' to take a more firm stand, and that's my goal."
I HAVE HUNDREDS OF STATEMENT LIKE THESE FROM DEBRA.WHO IN THE WORLD ARE? I DONT KNOW YOU. I DONT KNOW WHAT YOU SAY.
THIS IS NOT A JOKE TO HOMOSEXUAL, ABORTION DOCTORS OR LITTLE BOYS. OUR LIVES IN DANGER BECAUSE OF CHRISTIANS AND PHYCHOS PLAYING CHRISTIAN.
There is a scripture that says that when a parent no longer loves a child they do not discipline the child. This is called indifference.
We can all agree that Brenda is not indifferent.
We should agree that we all have some issue in our lives that we would be better off without.
To believe that we don't .... is delusional.
I think that "everyone" needs a Brenda in their lives whether they like it or not.
I once heard a politician say ... If I'm not making someone angry; I am not doing my job.
If I'm not doing my job, I'm not making a difference.
Everyone should make a difference in their own way.
Most of us do, even when we don't know it. One way or another, good or bad depends upon which side of any issue we are standing on.The problem is that what Brenda thinks is immoral is hypocritical B.S.
If you were in an interracial marriage or were an adherent to a religion other than evangelical Christianity, would you want "a Brenda" to hector you?No I wouldn't want that. I "might" need to hear it though.
This is NOT intended as a comparison to Anyone !
Just a fact that comes to mind.
A reporter once asked Martin Luther King what he thought about the KKK being able to get a marching permit and be able to have their speeches televised.
Mr. King said that he loved it. Not exactly in those words but ?? He thought that all theologies should be exposed for their true message. The KKK speeches actually did more good to the civil rights movement that harm.
On the other hand; "HAD" the KKK theologies been true, they might have had a different effect.
In a democracy the most popular opinions, get the best seats in the house. Some may say that this is discrimination?
And it may be ? But to do otherwise wouldn't be fair to the popular opinion, what ever that may be.
Life will never be fair in everyone’s eyes!! When one group gains leverage ... Another looses leverage. That aint fair ?? But it’s true.
I am short. I didn’t want to be short. I was born this way.
It wasn't fair that no one wanted me on their basketball team. I want to play too.
And everyone has personality types that they do not want to hang out with.
Sexual preference has nothing to do with this.
A gay couple insisting upon a Church wedding, it is like me insisting they let me join the Girl scouts, because I like doing the things that they get to do.
And they don't let Hondas into a Harley club either … or vice-versa
I’m not prejudice … I just like what I like.Dee fendin' the faith at all costs I see.
No Gay
couple is insisting on a church wedding.
Lying for jesus is good tho - right?
You needed to hear that.A gay couple insisting on a church wedding is entirely besides the point. There is no law requiring a church to wed two people (even two straight people). I couldn't care less if a church doesn't allow gay people to get married.
The issue comes when we're talking about the law. You being short does not prevent you from enjoying any of the laws enjoyed by taller citizens. No one is saying that short people pose a threat to children or to the very fabric of our civilization, and that they should therefore be a 'special class' of citizenry which can not take part in certain legal rights.
And how do you construe that this means anyone should kill homosexuals?
A firm stand would be to speak the truth when you needed to, despite the fact that just for quoting scripture you could be arrested and charged with 'hate laws' - which are nothing more than censorship designed to placate the pink lobbyists.
You see persecution and hatred, when all that really exists is conviction of sin.
Whenever someone becomes convicted of a sin they wish to continue, they strike out at those whose words bring conviction.
Your claim is spurious.Yes, you do know that Brenda is a divorcee living in a second marriage, right?
I can bring up Henry VIII and his break from the Catholic Church on the matter of divorce if your history needs refreshing...Did you know that she's been forgiven for any sin that she has committed, that's why conviction of sin is such a good thing, if you don't try to self justify it away!
BTW Satan is the ACCUSER, so you can stop doing his job for him, unless you know that he's your boss, then I guess you need to do his work on his behalf.
Who do you serve?First of all, you Bible Beaters need to understand that not everyone who exposes your hypocrisy is an atheist. If you're inclined to believe you're an atheist unless you're a Born Again Baptist Evangelical Protestant, then I suggest you read some.
Second, either you haven't followed Brenda's longstanding behavior here or you're simply being disingenuous. She rails on about gay people week after week, month after month. If you think pointing out that the Bible makes it clear that her divorce is just as much a condemnable sin (and as unrepentant one as long as she stays in her second marriage) as a gay person in love with a person of the same sex, then I'd suggest you read your Bible more carefully. Please don't skip the parts that you find inconvenient.
And finally, there's no reason to call Brenda Satan or a follower of Satan just because she spends most of her time here accusing just about everyone else here of the most ridiculous things.1 Corinthians 7:14-16 (King James Version)
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
Do you know the circumstances of Brenda marriage breakup?
Mark 10:11-13 (King James Version)
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
Who 'put away' who?
Matthew 19:9 (King James Version)
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
That's a both ways opinion BTW.
...and what about this....
Matthew 5:27-29 (King James Version)
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Ever been guilty of that?
Just saying that before anyone rushes to judgement, they should judge themselves.
The words on divorce were never intended to make a deserted party stay in solitude.
IF they had married as unbelievers and then one partner came to faith, wherein the other stayed in unbelief, subsequently deserting the believing party, there are grounds for remarriage ONCE the unbelieving deserting partner has committed adultery/fornication with another, indeed there is scripture that forbids the deserted believer to take that adulterous fornicating partner back again.
I suggest that you stop trying to beat her up simply because she consistently draws attention to folks sin.
James 2:10 (Amplified Bible)
For whosoever keeps the Law [as a] whole but stumbles and offends in one [single instance] has become guilty of [breaking] all of it.
Whereas in Christ we are commanded to forgive sins:
Matthew 18:21-22 (King James Version)
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. (that's per day!)
Why not practise that?You've cherry-picked passages from the Bible that suit your viewpoint. As I said before, this is a common practice among Bible Beaters.
Since I don't have the time to do the same this morning, give me some time. I'll find plenty of passages that negate what you're arguing for, and present an entirely different viewpoint. I'll be sure to use New Testament passages, since Bible Beaters only seem to quote the Old Testament when it comes to condemning homosexuality or threatening unbelievers with violent retribution.I only use the old covenant verses when they have been reiterated in the new covenant.
I don't use any verse to beat up folk, it's not relevant or needed, the idea is never to beat up anybody, especially those who are content in their sin and happy to be sinners.
The overall concept is to TRY to find a small spark of conviction in a sinner, with a hope that they may decide to put their lives right with God, through the atonement of Christ.
This is not undertaken for our own gratification, we don't exactly get bonus's or commissions if we bring a sinner to repentance, but we do get penalised if we see sin and fail to try to correct the sinner.
.................
Thank you aguasilver!
You are one after God's own heart, I believe.
I've offered several times to explain the circumstances of my life to livelonger and Knowles and others, and have done so somewhat; but it doesn't matter to them because they're only trying to deflect from their own agenda.
So I will no longer explain to them; they're no longer on a need-to-know basis with me! ha.
What they need to know is what I now tell them-----they need salvation from the Lord. The same salvation that this previously-lost, erstwhile-backslidden, but forgiven child of God has today! I'm for sure no better than anyone else; matter of fact, I see myself as the chiefest of sinners, if it weren't for how God now sees me, because in His eyes I belong to Him. You understand this, because you're His too!
They can be, too, but they refuse to even attempt to understand it; they quench the Spirit before He gets near them.
In the meantime, I will continue to speak against their agenda that seeks to legalize blatant perversion in America.I agree it's pointless for us to discuss these things. All I can say is that I've noticed that most of the people that can't grasp what science tells us - that homosexuality is a natural variant and inborn - are fairly elderly, and I recall a quote by Max Planck:
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."What are you talking about? Homosexuality is NOT inborn.
“After many years of intense research, a genetic component to homosexual desires has not been discovered. Twin studies show that identical twins do not consistently have the same sexual orientation. In fact, genetics probably explains very little about homosexual desires. How would a homosexual “gene” be passed on? Homosexuals don’t pass on anything because they don’t reproduce.
Second, the “born-that-way” claim is an argument from design— “since God designed me with these desires, I ought to act on them.” But the people who say this overlook something more obvious— they were also born with a specific gender. This raises the question: Why are you following your desires but not your gender? After all, we’re not sure if your desires were designed or the result of your upbringing, but we are certain that your anatomy is designed. So why not follow your anatomy rather than your desires? Ignoring your desires may be uncomfortable, but ignoring the natural design of your body is often fatal.
Third, even if desires are not a choice, sexual behavior always is. So even if a person honestly believes that he’s been born with homosexual desires, he is certainly capable of controlling his sexual behavior. If you claim that he is not—that sexual behavior is somehow uncontrollable—then you have made the absurd contention that no one can be morally responsible for any sexual crime, including rape, incest, and child molestation.” Frank Turek
http://www.ejssb.org/resources/Lehrmane … 5B1$5D.pdf
http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html
I realize you have to create pity and outright lie to push your agenda, but I know your talking points, I know your lies, and I know your game.
Since there are people who LEAVE the homosexual lifestyle that's proof enough that homosexuality is not inborn.
An ex lesbian speak the truth and exposes your true agenda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2X8T0cyIdA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBc4fnJ9Huk
Now you go ahead and ignore the facts, leave logic behind and shout me down it still won't make you right.That's called political and societal engineering, you dumb down the populace generation by generation until they will accept anything that they are fed,it's like selective breeding in lab rats, or culling those who show signs of individuality (as Stalin, Pol Pot and many other social engineers did) and thie current generations are falling for it hook line and sinker.
Wake up, the 'older' generation you are talking about were the FIRST generation to question the status quo and challenge authoritarianism, so don't be too happy to see them die off, not discount their wisdom and experience that they offer you youngsters free of charge, cost's nothing except perhaps a mite of respect for your elders.
Yikes! I never thought I would be old enough to say that!
John
______________________________________
Of course you will.
You may have been forgiven for past sins, and some today if you asked
But it is not immunity.
None of us have salvation because to attain it, we have to endure till the end.
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved
Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
A fan of the "Left Behind" series, are you?
(Remember, though, that divorcees are most certainly "left behind" too)
I am a Christian who does not have a problem with homosexuals. My former roomate in college was Lesbian. Although I did not agree with her lifestyle, who am I to judge someone. Also I know a lot of people who are not Christians and they have a huge problem with homosexuals, so I think you need to address people in general and not just target the religious. Great question though, I can definately see where it comes from!
The reason many Christians have a problem with homosexuals is because it's easy to identify and attack. I am a christian, I am not gay. I do not consider a homosexual to be any better or worse sin wise than I am, it is not my place to judge. After all, all sin is the same in god's eyes.
When I say it's easy to attack what I mean is that as well as being an action (and for some a lifestyle) it has political movement as well. For example, homosexuals push for say, Gay marriage, Christians are against this and so the attack homosexuals.
This probably gives the impression that homosexuality is being signaled out and persecuted especially over other sins. However, there is no comparative political movement of other sexual sins, such as fornicators, rapists, or adulterers. The reason Christians "have a problem" with homosexuals because they have a problem with us.
I'm not saying they shouldn't fight for what they believe, but should I be denied that right as well?
As an aside, for those of you critical of eating pork I say:
“Not what enters into the mouth defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.” Matt 15:12 Or in other words all "eating" sins were rescinded by Jesus, because those things were made "illegal" for the purpose of keeping the early nation of Israel healthy at a time when evidence suggests there was rampant disease among swine.
So I can eat pork because it's irrelevant. It's no longer a rampantly diseased food.Why aren't you trying to ban divorce, then? It is a sin that was explicitly condemned by Jesus Christ 5 times in the Bible.
But He said earlier that he wasn't trying to abolish Mosaic law.
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Matthew 5:17
Kinda contradictory.
"Why aren't you trying to ban divorce, then?"
Because, divorce is hard to attack. Homosexuality is easy to attack, for the reasons that benjamin listed, but also for the reason that they're a really small minority and lots of people have a non-religious antipathy for gay people; that is, gay people gross out a lot of non-gay people.
It's easier to pick on something the majority thinks is icky (but doesn't actually hurt the majority) than it is to pick on something the majority seems to really enjoy, or at least, seems to do a lot of (like divorce). If you try to ban divorce, or make life miserable for divorcees, you'll have a lot more enemies and way fewer allies than if you try to make life miserable for gays.That sounds like you just admitted that it isn't Christians that have a problem with Gay people.
I was thinking the same thing earlier.
Everyone that isn't Gay must have a little bit of a problem with those being gay .. or they themselves would BE gay."That sounds like you just admitted that it isn't Christians that have a problem with Gay people."
It isn't only Christians, and it isn't all Christians. But Christians are definitely leading the charge against gays.
"Everyone that isn't Gay must have a little bit of a problem with those being gay .. or they themselves would BE gay."
No, I'm just not attracted to dudes, that's all. That's kinda like saying everyone who isn't a carpenter must have a problem with carpenters, or they themselves would be carpenters.I was just trying to be light hearted...
But I don't think the carpenter thing is quite the same. It's more like comparing sex to eating cookies.
Lets just say that everyone eats cookies.
Everyone doesn't wanta to eat the same kind of cookies.
Me ? I like them all (cookies) as long as they got sugar in um.
Back to the issue. If I was only attracted to chocolate chip cookies, I only ate this kind there must be something in my mind that I don't like about the rest, whether I am aware of what that is or not. I only eat chocolate chip cause these are the only ones that I am attracted to. There is something wrong (To my taste buds) with all other kinds cause they aren't chocolate chip.
An aversion to ... comes in many diffrent degrees.
from slight all the way to hougueThey can't understand that being gay is not a choice. They think that any straight person will suddenly become gay if they don't fight it off (because, you know, being gay benefits you in so, so many ways in our society). They also think that choosing to be gay means you loathe heterosexuals, or that if you support gay equality it means you want to strip heterosexuals of their rights.
It all boggles the mind. But this is what they believe, and they will continue to believe it in the face of all of the evidence and application of reason to the contrary.
Jeff, as usual, you are just far too logical in answering questions like these.
Why can't you just say that homosexuality is God's least favorite sin and by treating gay people as equals we are bringing on the wholesale destruction of our civilization?
Brenda Durham said ...Time's a'comin' to take a more firm stand,
==============================================================
Jerami says That is just it! The time is a comin and theirs nothing we can do about it. we caint stopit.I enjoy the forums and I appreciate having the ability to have so many viewpoints featured in any given debate, big or small. Most topics get a rise for a while then fade away once the topic becomes inactive for one reason or another. This topic, however, I see EVERY SINGLE DAY. Quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing it. This particular hot-button topic will never be settled satsifactorily as there are too many people with the epitime of polar opposite views and many are so staunch in their beliefs that they will argue it to their death. This horse has been beaten and it's as dead as it will get. There is no sense in getting yourselves hot under the collar and all worked up over this day in and day out. The bottom line for Christians should be that it is not for man to judge others, that is HIS job. Let him do it, leave everybody else alone, and just focus on living your life the way you feel you should. In other words LET IT GO already!
- Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago0
Yup, that's called the ism, dear. The oxymoron opposing opposites are equal, neutral.
____________________________________________
You lack so much understanding, it's almost funny. But really it's sad.___________________________________
Opposite can work together or oppose.
Here is why christians and other god botherers have a problem with homosexuals. It's in their hate filled book!
Look up Romans 1:24-32 (NLT)Funny, some threads in this discussion seem to be closed to replies...
Anyway, LiveLonger said,
"If you were in an interracial marriage or were an adherent to a religion other than evangelical Christianity, would you want "a Brenda" to hector you?"
For my money, if all Brenda was doing was 'hectoring' folks, that'd be fine. I regularly get evangelists from several churches knocking on my door. They're nice folks, trying to do good in the world.
Of course, they never say anything about me going to Hell because I don't share their particular heresy, so that may be why I think they're nice folks and not obnoxious jerks.
But hey, hector away. I'll stand up for Brenda's right to hector people. I think she's being rude (also not entirely truthful) when she tells someone that their commitment to their same sex partner is an affront to decent people everywhere, but hey, free speech. We also have the freedom not to listen.
But I don't think she should get the power to stop people from committing to their same-sex partner. Tell them she thinks they're doing wrong? Fine. Stop them from doing it? Nope.Yes, you're absolutely right.
As far as I'm concerned, when the "gay agenda" is over (i.e. gays are allowed to serve in the armed forces, and get married to the person they love - I believe those are the only instances in which straight and gay people are unequal under the law), it will be very easy to ignore people like Brenda. Until then, she's a reminder that bigotry hold sway over our laws, and therefore, for some of us, our livelihoods.Right on the money Jeff, we all have the right to do as we wish, and to speak for or against whatever we believe.
So why is she being attacked by the trolls?
All she is doing is expressing her God (and State) given rights to free speech and freedom of religion.
So what's the agenda for those atheist trolls?"So why is she being attacked by the trolls?"
Freedom of speech applies to all of us. If you don't like what someone says, argue against it. Or ignore it, as Brenda seems to be doing with me at the moment.
"So what's the agenda for those atheist trolls?"
Isn't it obvious?
All [they are] doing is expressing [their] God (and State) given rights to free speech and freedom of religion.
Mark Knowles said You needed to hear that.
=========
Maybe I did ? Do I know that I did ?
================================================================
@ livelonger I agree that EVERYone should have equal rights under the law.
People shouldn't care If a civil union is designed to afford every right that is contained as described by law that Married people have. I myself; do not care what you call it.
I'll call any gay couple husband and husband, or lesbian couple Wife and wife.
The definition of marriage "in my mind" is husband and wife. I don't care if ya change the definition in the dictionary; but leave my head alone.
And allow my children this same privilege.
But we all know that there will always be .. someone .. that will want to pick up the baton and carry it even farther.
Next we will have to make the bible politically correct and rewrite it. There has already been enough of that.
Some issues will never be resolved cause some one will always want to take it just one more step farther.If you want to consider two married gay people, or a married interracial couple, or *whatever* something other than "true" marriage, who cares? You can think whatever you want, say whatever you want, print whatever you want, and I don't think any of those have any threat of being curtailed under the law.
If I'm allowed to marry whom I love *under the law*, I will not care one whit what anyone else says negative about it.And this is the right attitude for you to have.
You can change the definition in the dictionary.
There may be many words in the dictionary that needs changing in my opinion.
That is an isue that should be worked out with Mr. Webster!Wouldn't it be much simpler to use a word as it is defined in the dictionary within the context of your communication? Further to that, wouldn't it also be much simpler to either use another word or create a new word that defines exactly what you wish to convey? All this and more already exist in a dictionary.
Too late Jerami. This is the definition according to Merriam Webster online:
1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage
Awww - too bad.And this is the definition that sticks in my head.
I could be wrong?? Is this not what the arguement is all about.
Some people want to change this definition and some do not??
A civil union with all of the legal rights as a married couple? Would that settle the dispute???
And wouldn't this be a good thing?
Keep cicil rights about cicil rights.
Leave religious definitions alone?
Sometimes it is hard to focus upon what the real issues are really about.What?
You said you go by the dictionary definition.
I point out that the dictionary definition included "same sex marriages."
You still argue.
Marriage is a government sanctioned institution. Not religious.
Gay men - in general - earn more money than straight men. When they die - their "partner" has no legal rights.
Guess where the money goes.
Still - what is really, really important is defending the faith - right?Except for the ... "Still - what is really, really important is defending the faith - right?" comment you always make... I don't understand what you are argueing about??
What did I say that you disagree with?
What definition do you think that we should go by.
You didn't make yourself clear except for the usual ...what is really, really important is defending the faith - right?"
what is really, really important is defending the faith - right?"
What is your opinin?
It's God that has "the problem" with gays because He says it is wrong. God made a man and woman to be brought together and when you think about it, we fit perfectly. We as Christians represent Christ, thus the word "Christ-ianity". So as a Christian, speaking for myself, if God's word says it is wrong than I believe Him. God loves and cares for gays and lesbians but He won't tolerate ungodliness because he is too Holy. I personally know a few gay people which I care about and like as people but disagree with their lifestyle, because my God says it should not be so.
So I can't understand why God bothered to make Homosexuals, just to inform them that their very essence is wrong. What kinda crap is that?
These people don't believe that gays are created, they believe it's a deliberate choice, despite all the evidence to the contrary. They obligate themselves to believe it's a choice, or even they would realize they're condemning people for something that's inborn.
That is what my bible says too.
And I'm going to let him work it out however he desides is best, when he desides to do so.
Your God is not going to make any decisions because he is imaginary, Jerami. IT IS BELIEVERS WHO WILL HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION--A decision to stop oppressing others based on the prejudices of hateful scripture writing psychopaths.
Scary!And if all of the worlds problems were suddenly solved; I have a feeling that some people would still find an issue to raise. There will always be something to create division over, with or without church or state.
Which side you going to be on?
Got a ph call; I gotta go away.You think "our God" is imaginary? So, you don't believe that there is a God? Are you willing to bet your soul of it? Are you willing to take that chance that God isn't real and ultimately end of in Hell because you rejected an "imaginary" God?
Tell you what, lovely, if I were a non-believer, that'd be about the worst way to convince me to become a believer.
If the guy doesn't believe in God, he's not going to be scared of Hell.
Plus, such a conversion wouldn't be based in love, it'd be based in fear. Do you really want to be an extortionist for Jesus?How a person relates to their religion often gives you major insight into their upbringing. Those with parents that threatened the hell (excuse the pun) out of them tend to do the same as adults.
I agree that admitting you're taking Pascal's Wager isn't a good enough reason for others to do the same. There are a lot of assumptions you have to make, any of which just might not be true.Jeff - God is not trying to scare you or force you into believing in Him, He simply wants a relationship with you because he loves you. We all are his dear children. Do you have children? God is our Heavenly Father and we, his children, so when our children disobey us or do something that is wrong, do we disown them and stop loving them? No. We stil love them and want them to have what is best for them.
What I was trying to get at was, God exists whether you believe Him or not and Hell is very real whether you believe it or not. When we are faced with our eternal sentence - either Heaven or Hell, not pergatory, then we will not have a chance to change our minds which master to serve. It will be too late.Am I to understand that to be "saved" I need to believe an invisible fairy made himself, them made the earth and humans which were made "evil" by another invisible fairy made by god, so god became his own son and then killed himself so that I could be forgiven for what god screwed up?
Sorry, my poor little brain can't quite grasp why anyone would buy a load of cobblers like that!You have a great undertsanding of the bible. Have you considered a career as a televangelist?
"God is not trying to scare you or force you into believing in Him..."
God's not, but you sure are.
"Hell is very real whether you believe it or not. When we are faced with our eternal sentence - either Heaven or Hell, not pergatory, then we will not have a chance to change our minds which master to serve. It will be too late."
You better believe in God or else you'll end up in Hell, which hurts? That's a crappy reason to believe in God.
That's kinda like saying, "You better give me a cut of your business or it will burn down."The Gospel is not fire insurance, Hell is the consequence that you knowingly choose now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhKtWzZ_4IQYeh like the 3 day old girl that just died somewhere. Straight to hell.
How dare she not believe exactly the same as you do! After all, she only has about 3,000 different versions of "the word" to choose from.Ah now the strawman version of the bible. The bible teaches of the age of accountability duh. A baby would be exempt, but you would not.
“3000 versions” huh that's a stretch. “Both the Old and New Testaments are strongly supported by manuscript evidence (the evidence of early hand written copies). The famous Dead Sea Scrolls are one example of the Old Testament evidence. These documents came from the “library” of a settlement founded at Qumran before 150 B.C. and abandoned about 68 A.D. Some of the manuscript copies were made during that period, and some were written earlier (third century BC) and brought to the settlement. Ignoring spelling-oriented (orthographic) changes and similar small differences, the Dead Sea Scrolls match the Hebrew text behind today’s Old Testament, in spite of the passage of over 2,000 years (where one would expect errors to creep in).
Over 20,000 known manuscripts document the New Testament text. This makes the New Testament the most reliable document of antiquity (a document written before the printing press). These manuscripts vary in size from a part of a page to an entire Bible (Old and New Testaments). The earliest New Testament manuscripts date from the second century (100-199) AD These manuscript copies were written in different languages by people of different nationalities, cultures, and backgrounds. In spite of all those differences between them, the New Testament texts all agree. (That is, those differences that we do observe between these hand written documents are occasional changes in the spelling of names or isolated cases of missing or changed words. Still, since we have so many copies, it is obvious to anyone but the hardened skeptic can that they all represent the same text.) Note: Those minor differences that do exist between the Old and New Testament manuscripts are interesting for academic reasons. Don’t forget, The Proof of Prophecy, The Messianic Prophecies, Fulfilled Prophecy Dealing With Nations, The Proof of Textual Evidence, The Proof of People Living at the Time of Christ, The Proof of Historians
Come on stardust you can do better than this. I hope.
Source: Clarifying Christianity"Over 20,000 known manuscripts document the New Testament text. This makes the New Testament the most reliable document of antiquity (a document written before the printing press)....[proof]."
Hang on...what exactly does this prove? Logically, that is.
It proves that the books in the Bible were carefully copied and carefully translated. Nothing else.
Faith is faith, Spiderpam. It's mysterious, it's unscientific, and "proof" doesn't enter into it. Either you believe, or you don't. Nobody ever proved to me that God exists or that Jesus died for my sins; I just believe it. It's unprovable, and anybody who tries to prove these things invariably ends up looking silly.
"the good news is that the wrath of God has been paid for us,Jesus is our passover Lamb,that passes over God's wrath over us so we can cross over from death to life.None of us deserve Heaven, that is what salvation is the FREE GIFT from God that he gave out of love and mercy.God bless you."
There is no hell anymore.You have to recieve the gift ie repent and trust. Isn't that why He came in the first place. If there is no longer a hell Why did Jesus speak so much about it even more than heaven?
Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Not only do unrepentant sinner go to hell those who approve of their sin go to hell too. Jesus called people wicked, serpents, and he even called Peter Satan. Jesus told the truth and never backed down and died for the truth that’s a true Christian.
"The Gospel is not fire insurance"
No, the Gospel is not fire insurance, but many evangelists sure do sound like insurance salesmen. Some even sound like they work for a protection racket.
Believe or else.
Love? Hardly.You made the mistake of assuming a God of love can’t be a God of Justice. If you love someone and see them ruining themselves(stealing, adultery, homosexuality, promiscuity) don’t you get concerned, worried maybe even angry, of course you do, not despite of your love, but because of your love for them. Anger isn’t the opposite of love, hate is, and the final form of hate is indifference(false compassion). So the most loving thing real Christians can do is warn homosexuals, thieves adulterers, liars, and ALL others sinners. Show them that they are sinners and are in need of a Saviour. In other words The Gospel.
"If you love someone and see them ruining themselves(stealing, adultery, homosexuality, promiscuity) don’t you get concerned,"
Stealing? Yes, the thief has taken what does not belong to him without permission. That violates the victim's property rights.
Adultery? Yes. The adulterer is breaking the promise he made to be faithful to his spouse. He's not only getting some, he's also lying and committing fraud.
Promiscuity? Yes. It's risky. The promiscuous person could catch a disease. But as long as the promiscuous person isn't lying to anybody, or saying he's being faithful when he's not, or forcing himself onto anyone, nobody's rights are being violated, it's not a crime, and the (earthly) law doesn't enter into it.
Homosexuality? Nope. Sorry, unless the homosexual person is forcing himself on someone, or lying about his fidelity, or cheating on a spouse to get some gay action on the side, he's not violating anybody's rights, he's not committing any (earthly) crime, and the (earthly) law doesn't enter into it.
Maybe the homosexual person will end up in Hell if they have gay sex. If you believe that, you should try to convince them to be celibate. But that's a question of faith, and as such, we can't outlaw something that breaks nobody's arm, picks nobody's pocket.
Preach all you want; that's your right, and I'll defend it to the last. But please let's not try to make a solely religious commandment into a secular law that does not preserve liberty, but curtails it.
Focus on their own self and do what they can to be more compassionate, loving, non judgemental and forgiving and keep their noses out of other people's business.Real “compassion ought to make us visit the prisoner, dry out the alcoholic, help the pregnant girl prepare for the baby, and encourage the young homosexual to live chastely. But how much easier it is to forget the prisoner; give the drunk a drink, send the girl to the abortionist, and tell the kid to just give in. False compassion is a great deal less work than true.”
Jay Budziszewski
Jesus Christ spoke more about hell than about heaven and said that the majority of people are heading there. In Matthew 7.13-14, He said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Not only do unrepentant sinner go to hell those who approve of their sin go to hell too. Jesus called people wicked, serpents, and he even called Peter Satan. Jesus told the truth and never backed down and died for the truth that’s a true Christian.
You made the mistake of assuming a God of love can’t be a God of Justice. If you love someone and see them ruining themselves(stealing, adultery, homosexuality, promiscuity) don’t you get concerned, worried maybe even angry, of course you do, not despite of your love, but because of your love for them. Anger isn’t the opposite of love, hate is and the final form of hate is indifference(false compassion). So the most loving thing real Christians can do is warn homosexuals, thieves adulterers, liars, and ALL others sinners. Show them that they are sinners and are in need of a Saviour.
I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.You clearly don't understand compassion - maybe you have never truly felt it?
Ad Hominem with emotive language reveals the weakness of your plight. If you a logical point please make it.
The point is that if you and all the other religionsists that spend their lives trying to control other people and make them do as you wish, spent as much time working on their own weaknesses the world would be a much better place. Fix yourself first!
Believers should, could, and would do as you suggested.
I wish we could.
We would do that here on the internett also, BUT Some people will not let that happen.No one can "FIX THEMSELVES" without outside sourses.
I think that evangelizing was intended for believers to inflict upon fellow believers for the purpose of fixing ourselves.
Ya caint pick flees off of your own back.
Believers should help each other fix themselves.
The internet would be a great platform to do this in.
You are correct in saying that we need to quit preaching to non believers. You don't like it. We are wasting our time that would be better spent "Fixing" ourselves. If we could do that as Jesus taught, We would be an example that more people would want to follow.
I think that we could do that without being outwardly or intentionally offensive ... until someone comes into the conversation with a loaded question knowing what the answer is going to be.
I haven't seen any of this happening on these forums.
Both sides are guilty of stirring up Hate.
And that is sadSorry - you are wrong. This is one of the reasons I find your religion so evil. You do have the power and tools to fix yourself but your religion teaches you that you need outside salvation. Utter nonsense. Sorry. Admittedly - sometimes that means asking some one for help. But - when I want help I tend to ask for it.
If the evangelizing was limited to believers - I could accept that. Knocking on doors is not.
Some times it is appropriate to ask for help. If it is asked for - that is another matter.
Yes. I have said many times that I have never met a real Christian. Just the sales team.
But - your beliefs are offensive. Your book has a list of things that I should not do that most so-called believers do not follow. And you believe there is an invisible super being in the sky who will punish me for not believing.
There used to be a fair amount of reasonable discussion. I Used to enjoy it. Then the evangelists showed up - And there ain't no takin' to them because they already have all the answers.
"religionists" nice buzz words to provoke a reaction, but it has no barring on your point.. Who am I trying to control? I simply tell the truth and they either will accept or reject only God can change peoples hearts. Where in the world do we find that NOT caring for others is best? We are all encouraged to care about others. That's why we have interventions, rehab, quit smoking hotlines and commercials. Do you give an alcoholic a drink? No. Do you tell a man to continue to cheat on his wife? No. Do you tell a teen to do drugs if it makes them happy? No. Do you let a sinner any sinner continue to live in their sin when you know it’s killing them physically and spiritually? No. You are a giver of false compassion, you’re the problem, not me. You might want to read the entire bible, not just the feel good parts.
But spider - what you are doing is causing conflict, ill will and hatred. How is this in any way positive?
Do you seriously expect anyone to listen to you when you clearly are not able to behave in anything close to a reasonable fashion?
What do you hope to achieve spreading this hatred? I mean really - you can barely grasp basic scientific facts - and you think you are qualified to tell a random stranger what they should be doing? And then are surprised when you get a negative reaction?
Religionist - a person addicted to religion or a religious zealot
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Religionist
I think the term "religionist," is a reasonable word to use when describing some one who behaves the way you do.
Don't you?
You do not have the Truth to share. All I see is your irrational prejudices and your seeming inability to accept responsibility for yourself before attacking others. And call it "love"? Dear me.
This is the problem with your religion. It prevents you from developing an ethical code, because you refuse to take responsibility for your own actions and blame it all on an invisible super being. This is why it causes so much conflict.Oh mark we‘ve been down this road so many times and you‘re still wrong. "what you are doing is causing conflict, ill will and hatred. How is this in any way positive?"
Would you tell an alcoholic he has a problem even if you know he will hate you simply telling the truth. Or you wait until he kills someone drunk driving?
If you love someone and see them ruining themselves(stealing, adultery, homosexuality, promiscuity) don’t you get concerned, worried maybe even angry, of course you do, not despite of your love, but because of your love for them. Anger isn’t the opposite of love, hate is and the final form of hate is indifference(false compassion). So it would be YOU who really hated others.
"What do you hope to achieve spreading this hatred? I mean really - you can barely grasp basic scientific facts - and you think you are qualified to tell a random stranger what they should be doing? And then are surprised when you get a negative reaction?"
What hatred? I hate no one. You can't grasp 0+0=0 and you expect to listen to you explain basic scientific facts
I'm not at all surprised darkness hates the light Jesus Christians would be hated.
Jesus is THE truth I just tell people about Him.
“All I see is your irrational prejudices and your seeming inability to accept responsibility for yourself before attacking others. And call it "love"?”
Of course that’s ALL you see you have secular evolutionary worldview, No matter what you see you have a rescue story that saves your worldview.
“This is the problem with your religion. It prevents you from developing an ethical code, because you refuse to take responsibility for your own actions and blame it all on an invisible super being. This is why it causes so much conflict.”
The very same can be said for your religion. Repentance is taking responsibility for your sins. You simply deny any wrongdoing and ignore the judge. That’s why your religion causes the most conflict mark. If you have anything new I’ll respond, but this dance is getting tired.The health risk alone should be enough NOT to endorse homosexuality.
"The homosexual lifestyle is an extremely dangerous one. According to numerous studies, many of which have been commissioned by homosexual publications; 20% of homosexuals report of participating in sadomasochism where their partner is hurt, scratched, bruised and/or bloodied. 41% of male homosexuals and 8% of lesbians report "fisting"; where the arm is inserted up the rectum of one's partner. Over 90% of male homosexuals participate in the insertion of the penis into the rectum of their sexual partner's.
This practice carries great risk for both participants. The rectum was not created to withstand this abuse. Fecal matter can inter through the urethra, and sperm breaks through the single layer of the columnar epithelium of the rectum, causing massive immunological disruptions in the blood system, making the person at much greater risk for infection. It's no wonder that homosexuals are 245% more apt to report 2 or more sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) at a time, than heterosexuals.
The consequences of this behavior is magnified when one looks at the number of partners the average homosexual has in his/her lifetime. Most homosexual sex is performed with strangers. 70% admitting to having sex only once with over half of their partners. The average Homosexual has had 300 to 500 partners during a lifetime. 28% have performed sodomy on over 1000 partners. Only 2% have had monogamous relationships, and those are defined as lasting anywhere between 9 and 60 months.
Of these monogamous relationships;
5% drank urine,
7% incorporated fisting,
33% ingested feces,
53% swallowed semen."
Let's not forget the 20 years off the persons lifespan
Sources: Karla Jay and Allen Young, two homosexual researchers, published in The Gay Report,
NARTH.com
The government allows homosexuality, but it doesn't and shouldn't promote such destructive behavior.I don't engage in any of those activities with my partner of 7 years, but I know plenty of heterosexuals do. Well, as we all know, evangelical "science" can often fabricate numbers out of thin air, since, without the rigors of peer review, there is no one to question them.
I'll take you seriously when you support my (gay) marriage and save your condemnation for all people who engage in esoteric sex practices, the majority of whom are probably heterosexual.
As for fixing myself, I can’t, God can. I have been saved from death, I'm not perfect by ANY means. The church is a hospital for sinners not a shrine for self righteous people who never make mistakes. I've been forgiven and granted grace and I am passing on this truth as I grow in Christ.
This is the crux of the problem. It's not gods job to fix you - it's yours.That's the crux of society today, when we leave God out we fall and fall bloody.
Sorry but I think you'll find it's the other way round if you look at it closely. The US, when led by Christian fundamentalist Bush, started two wars in 10 years - now that's bloody!
Anyway it's Pimms O' Clock.......going to do some self reflectionStalinm Pol Pot killed much much more trying to rid the world of God.
I should get going too, Have a good day ALL.
Club Hell will have to build a much larger gate, and maybe even turn some people away, given the masses who will endure any and all tortures just to get away from the proselytizers they've had to suffer in this world.
Fire and brimstone vs. the eternal proclamations of righteousness from hateful Christians?
Pretty easy choice.I'll assume you really don't want a response, you just want rant, rant away Ron.
You assume correctly. I've heard this B.S. so many times I could write your response for you. (Although with better grammar and spelling)
But since you have no sensible evidence of the existence of this God, or even if He ever said any of the prejudice statements in this horrible bible, how do you expect intelligent people, who are not blinded by fear, to concede.
It is pure delusion to us. And the people who believe and assert this nonsense are not taken seriously, but are laughed at--as psychotics.
Belief in imaginary beings is a serious psychosis. See below:
Delusion
A delusion is where you have an unshakeable belief in something that is implausible, bizarre or obviously untrue. There are two common types of psychotic delusion:
•paranoid delusion
•delusions of grandeur
These are described below.
Paranoid delusion
A person with psychosis will often believe that an individual or organisation is making plans to hurt or kill them. This can lead to unusual behaviour. For example, a person with psychosis may refuse to be in the same room as a mobile phone because they believe they are mind-control devices.
Delusions of grandeur
A person with psychosis may have delusions of grandeur where they believe that they have some imaginary power or authority. For example, they may think they are president of a country, or that they have the power to bring people back from the dead.
Since I'm not a slave to fear, your fear tactics have no affect upon me. Yes I'm willing to laugh in your face as you assert this abject nonsense about some imaginary entity. It is you who has a problem, not me. I truly wish childish believers would grow up, and stop threatening me with this imaginary place called "hell"
I laugh in your face, but I get really pissed off that you are that childish, but wish to be taken as a serious adult.Aren't you betting your soul that your god is the wrong god? What if one of the other gods is true and your god is not, what then?
don't expect everyone to share your ideas. or sign off on its practice
Atheist n. A person to be pitied in that he is unable to believe things for which there is no evidence, and who has thus deprived himself of a convenient means of feeling superior to others.
These people look like regular folk to me. I couldn't condemn any of them. Maybe it helps to put a name and a face on someone before judging them.
http://www.nycpride.org/march.htmlThat is inspirational Ron, I may do that!
My father taught us kids the truth.
He said "Remember kids, just say no to knowledge."
He woz wel edumacated was my dad!
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