Well it went through the diffrent scenerio about Judus, Pilot, The high priest etc talking about what each of them were suposed to have said and done, discussed why each might have and might have done what is told that they did.
it was all prophicied. they did what they were supposed to do? I thought. what if Judas hadnt done his thing? would we all NOT be saved? would Jesus still be here, on earth all.. but? but? Im supposed to be back in heaven by now?
You are so right , Justine. The bible prophesy told the jews that a Messiah would come and die for them. It doesn't "negate free-will" Just means that Jesus died willingly for us. The whole thing is far too interesting and complicated to be sorted out on this forum. I don't know why people gewt in such a tizzy over other people's opinions. Sheesh !!!!
You're late (Q) The OP is at work, and we ran it all down. It is about a History Channel program of the same name. No real debate.
Ironically, later down the page you will find we came to the decision world hunger is a more reasonable subject for debate. As one of your two hubs is on that subject perhaps we are all on the same page after all.
I didn't see the programme, Who framed Jesus? but I can read.! There's no room for doubt in the gospels that the Pharisees and other religious leaders framed him for blasphemy. Heck, they even tried to kill Lazarus after Jesus had resurrected him .!!!! Worst case of trying to destroy the evidence I've ever read.
the point that stuck out in my mind was how the three stories in the Gospels progressively exalt the inocence of the Roman Governments involvment. According to the storyline in the show this was not likely. The Rome Empire was COMPLETELY inocent according to the scripture that the Roman Catholic Church chose to put in their cannon. This was my take on the story. I believe in the God of Abraham though I have doubts as to the accuracy of the NT.
You hit the nail on the head there Jerami. The church gives us what we have of these letters that were over time copied by monks, scribes.
The reality is, and many argue, The Christ (whichever incarnation you choose to believe him to be, Horus, Mithra, All the rest) Was predicted to die, so he had to die. The stories all hold one common thread, he told Judas to "do what you must do"
That being said, the story should be that he had himself betrayed because without his death there would be no resurrection, no fulfillment of prophecy, he betrayed himself.
Ha Faybe leave the computer and as soon as ya bo someons says ha... The show was intresting giving diffrent views as to what is written on diffrent things. The non I mentioned above realy stuck out for me. And the Judus thing also. Jesus said" Go do what you must do" Like a command.
John from 19:12 and Luke 23:20 thru 24 seeming to say that Pilot wanted to let him go but the Jews insisted. I was thinking that the Jews said that they accept any blame but I'm not sure if it is actually written in the bible.
You don't have to find it. It's already know how and why Jesus had to die. The question is how many people know the truth and can actually take from the bible what's need and vacate the mythology of most of it's parts?
Usually, it is done by ministers, scholars and the educated elite, per se.
The average person is left to figure it out for themselves, so much of the translation or understanding of the bible itself and it's significance is misleading.
It's unfortunate, but does happen when people are corrupted.
The bible is exactly as stated- a historical book with mythology mixed in. The Bible is NOT "inspired writing" of any stretch of the imagination. There are plenty of things that are inspired works by many different people. The bible is part of religion.
Religion is a business based on a specific code of ethics(reinforced by a certain philosophy), and it's bound to a higher cause(GOD) other than self.
It's a billion dollar a year business that allows cheaters to usurp power, wealth and influence over the masses who follow it.
Sorry to bother, and not seriously wishing any debate with you my friend. When I say inspired, it is with the meaning that no work, whether it word or deed is ever done without inspiration. Some inspiration is not pretty, like the inspiration it took to cause you to spar with me.
Writing, painting drawing dancing all are arts. War and hatred, are arts, math is an art. Medicine is an art, science is an art. Without inspiration there is no art. Love is an art, sex is an art, without these arts Cagsil, you would not exist. Art is inspiration, to the point of creation, even destruction is inspired, inspired to express the feelings within.
Tell me again, this book is not inspired, then it does not exist, nor do you or I or Hub Pages, or this debate.
Sorry, I am Irish. Look up inspired. it is related to Aspired, I aspired to end a debate with you, and you inspired me to continue.
Dear Faybebay, The bible DOES blame the jews for killing Jesus, just not All of them Many jews became Jesus' followers. But if you check out John chapter 11 from verse 44 onwards, you'll see how some of the jews who'd witnessed the resurrection of Lazarus went straight to the Pharisees, (also jews) verse 53 "Therefore from that day on they took counsel to kill him"
Yes and As I said, this thread was started about the history channel show "Who framed Jesus." Pharisees are priests of a sect, so are sadducees, but who had the greatest to gain by killing him? The royalty, they just didn't want his blood on their hands. The church and state were co-existent. The Temples doubled as banks. Lending sacrifices for later pay. They did not want this to end, and the King did not want a revolution. The Leaders conspired, and then "moved the crowd" to ask for Barrabas and crucify Christ.
Now that I have defended that point of view, if you read down the page you will see the question is really why did Rome want to make everyone believe that it was the Jewish Multitude who crucified Jesus?
Debate has ended, Jerami is at work, and his wounds have been eased.
Actually it does. Acts 4: 10 specifically names the Israelites as Jesus's crucifiers. But Paul's accusation was also an accusation to ALL non-believers, in effect. He's telling all the people that Jesus died for them, and testifying to the fact that it's because of Jesus that he himself (Paul) is standing before them. And I will add that it's not so much a "blame-placing" (since Jesus willingly gave up His life) as it is that Paul is trying to get them to understand the magnitude of what had happened----that Jesus was the ONE who died to save them from their sins.
Here, try this Matthew 27 :15-26 It is the priests in every case, who are angered. and in each scenario "move the people" to request the release of Barrabbas. Another reason I do not follow "religions". I each gospel if you back up a few verses, it is the priests, not the Jewish people.
I went to a few churches for a while a couple of times. Quit going when I noticed that no one liked my asking the tough questions. Wasn't trying to be a trouble maker just wanted an answer and when they wouldn't answer I had to tell um what I thought the answer must be. And I was going to keep that concept till they could give me a better one. Like I said They don't like me no matter how much they said they loved me.
You have already seen what I believe Jerami, I told you, you are mathematically advanced of me. That being said, I will discuss further with you the sins of the father.
It is this. The sins are not "Paid for" by the children, They are not "suffered for" by the children. It means that children see what their fathers do, and mimic that. It takes ten generations for a child to finally say "Hey, my daddy was wrong and so was his daddy and his before him... This is right."
I could not agree more. Was just sayin what this verse says. I don't believe they said it. There are old testament verses concerning that issue about the children not taking on the sins of the father concerning redemption that agrees with you. There are other verses about the sins being carried on for a number of generations. I think those are refering to the results of the sins of the father being carried through generations. I can't remember where these verses are . As Earnist will testify..I cain't find my car keys with out Gods help.
The issue of sacrifice has to be totally understood, we should ask what was the essence of His death to mankind? We ought to understand spiritually why His blood was sacrificed for reconciliation of man with God. In fact Jesus was framed by God's Word to fulfill this great purpose. It's beyond the comprehension of self, religion and science.
Reminds me of a scene from "Asterix The Gaul!" The pirates' ship has been smashed to smithereens and each of them is hanging on to a piece of wood from the debris which helps them to stay afloat. The leader exclaims, "We've been framed, by Jericho!"
An asterisk at the end of that statement points to an explanatory note at the bottom which says, "Jericho - An ancient Gaulish artist."
I rote a comment the other day about getting up early one morning, knowing that it had snowed all night, I got up went rabit hunting in the new snow. Followed the rabit tracks for hours never to see that little rascle Wabbit. Even though I never saw it, I am sure that it exists.
Found out later that at first light them little rascles will run in circles many times to cover it's scent before it returns to its burrow. Probably watched me all along...getting ready to catch it.
At the time of Jesus, the Religious Educated Elite were in rule. This was associated with "religious teachings", which Jesus refused to teach.
With Jesus' refusal, it was him signing his own death warrant. The religious leaders found him a threat to their religious teachings and had him executed for NO CRIME at all.
It wasn't blasphemy, because Jesus was speaking the truth. The Truth was that Religion's "GOD" didn't exist and accused their actions as being evil.
The only damn reason people even think about 'sin' is because of Religious teachings, for which, you are not suppose to follow, under any circumstances. Religion's "GOD" and it's "Will" is nothing but a hoax.
Hidden away in Religious teachings is Jesus' work, only because after his execution....to incorporate the masses, they add his work, and came up with Christianity.
After all this time, why are people still pointing fingers and trying to find someone to blame? Didn't Jesus preach forgiveness? If He was OK with the result, why aren't we? Let it go, whether you believe it or not.
I just think that the way in which the story is told was told the way that it was for political purposes. I think that the basic story as told is true. But the spin doctors edited the new testament. And There was much more that should have been included.
Hey Rochelle, it goes back to why "people" think the Jews killed Jesus. It is just the age old debate, but now this History channel thing brought up some of the conclusions. Jerami, wants to know if it was a political/religious assassination of the Jews.
Every one is correct with what they said above . In truth it was not the Jewish people, their priests, nor the blame of Judas.
My question is why does scripture tell the story the way it does. Why does it place the blame every place but The Roman Government. For over 250 years the Romans attempted to do away with Christianity and could not do it. If christianity could not be destroyed they had to at least get a handle on it. When Constantine established the Universal Church, He was the supreme authority over this Church. History was re written at that time The books that were included in the canon was stratigicly selected and called the inspired of God. From that day forward Christianity started going a diffrent path. It seems we see the facts that we want to see. And understand them the way we want to. Close our eyes to that that we do not want to see.
I understand your frustration Jerami. It is an age old debate. People have spent more time working out what should or should not be in the Bible, and what it is all supposed to mean, than they have on solving the problem of poverty.
Imagine, taking the number of scholars it has taken over the years, to compile, translate and print this compilation of ancient writings; add to that the work and rework done each time it has been translated into other languages; add to this the number of translations in the English language alone. Now, count the names and the years and imagine those same numbers working out a solution to world hunger and poverty.
Words written and translated thousands of years ago, and people are still starving in our world. How many hours, Jerami, will you agonize over something that happened before any of us were born.
This is why I do not debate words written by people I never met. It is not productive.
You are a brilliant writer, you have a gift I could never hope to achieve myself, interpretation and math, together in one mind. Use your brilliance, let go of the past mistakes of people we never met.
I am humbled by your words.. And you are correct that we should live in the present and take care of our problems of today.
Before I go to fix a hole in somebody elses sheetrock. (gotta make a living) I want to share some of grandpas wisdom. If ya want to fix what is wrong in your life ya gotta figure out what ya did wrong ta get ya to where you'r at. Stop doing whatever that is and life will soon get back like it is suposed to be. Religion in my opinion took a wrong turn someplace. Or it wouldn't be in the condition it is in. Instead of fighting about where we are and the stuff that is going on; we should figure out how to get back to where we are suposed to be.
Any way .. sigh,.. Yaul have a great day .. while I go slaveing around the neighborhood.
Good luck Jerami, and yes we have much to fix. But it has to be started one on one, a single person at a time. Taking on a system never works. History will show I am right. In every revolution the purpose was lost. One person at a time will work globally. I am looking for some quotes, have a great day at work.
Hockey Paradox warning. How can something be prophecy and man have free will. To say it is prophecy is to say it is destined. That negates free will.
To answer the question ... It's kinda like getting on a cruse ship.. Ya might say that it is propesied that you are going to Jamica You have free will... play shuffelboard, poker at the bar, swim in the pool chase girls , whatever ya want to;... You have free will... BUT you'r goin to Jamica.
If we realy think about it ??? Ya stop and think about if political propiganda entered into the New testament concerning this issue I ask myself What does this mean? How ? and why? And how deep did this go? All kind of questions come to mind.
My computer is running slower than molasses in January. And kicking me off of HP . Bet it needs to be hospitalized. Lost sp ck a couple of days ago. can ya tell? Goinna shut down and reboot. That is about all I know how to do. cleared cookies yeaterday. Maybe it's mad.
There were hundreds if not thousands of writtings that were written after the crucifixion and before the establishment of the Universal church in 326 AD. I find it intresting that those writtings that were accepted into the canon were mostly favorable to Rome? The persicution of Christians biblicaly speaking were mostly carried out by the Jewish religious leaders.
It is through other historical records that we understand the extent of Roman persicution towards Christians .
Most people forget that for almost 300 years the Roman Empire attemped to exterminate Christians. And then all of a sudden a Roman Emperor desides to gather all the Church leaders together and gets them to agree with a particular doctrine having him (Constantine) as the ultimate authority over the Universal Church. No wonder that the selection of writtings selected as scripture will show Rome in the most favorable light as ispossible.
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