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The crossroads of religion and psychosis

  1. WizardOfOz profile image60
    WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago

    I do believe the policy is no links in forums?

    Anyhow, I googled religion and psychosis for the sake of it.  Interesting results..  Just a starter.

    1. Obscure Divine profile image56
      Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      If you're speaking about organized religions versus psychosis, are you implying that they are synonyms?  LOL!

      1. WizardOfOz profile image60
        WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        research supports that suggestion.

        1. Obscure Divine profile image56
          Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I figured that...  Ya know, I wish some of those psychos would give me some of their damn money instead of always throwing it in the divine "offering plate!"  Ha-ha!

          1. tantrum profile image61
            tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Start your own religion. Not difficult, by the way some people use their minds . LOL

            1. Obscure Divine profile image56
              Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I wish us the best of luck then.  Hmm..., what are you going to name yours?  LOL!  big_smile

              1. tantrum profile image61
                tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Just like Prince, it's going to be only a Sign ! big_smile

                1. Obscure Divine profile image56
                  Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Symbolic gestures are awesome, but lack the "awe" when used inappropriately - like most organized religions.  Praise be "freedom of thought" without the organization, hence forth individuality.  big_smile

        2. Mikel G Roberts profile image87
          Mikel G Robertsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Got Proof?

          1. WizardOfOz profile image60
            WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I supplied the proof already.  Start at the beginning of the thread and find the reference.

        3. Allan Bogle profile image80
          Allan Bogleposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          No it doesn't. Try again.

      2. ruanz3 profile image62
        ruanz3posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        'If you're speaking about organized religions versus psychosis, are you implying that they are synonyms?  LOL!'

        You just won yourself a follower.

    2. profile image0
      Justine76posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      uh, I personaly know SEVERAL people, not with physchosis exactly, but some serious problems, directly resulting from religion.

      1. WizardOfOz profile image60
        WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        can't say i am suprised.

        1. profile image0
          Justine76posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          smile

      2. Daniel Carter profile image88
        Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I know anti-religious people who are pretty warped, too. They seem to have venom and pushiness in common.

      3. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        religion is just a cultural expression of our collective internal world. what you blame on religion is actually the external forces that you allow to invade your personal choice in order to purchase 1.approval 2. love 3. acceptance.

        what is making people crazy is not religion, it is fear.

        1. earnestshub profile image88
          earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Which religion spends it's efforts creating. smile

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
            ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            religion is a mechanized version of a process that was meant to be individual. please read my banana post.

            (it's five a.m. but I gotta say this before I actually get the work I was supposed to be doing done.)

            G-d is a metaphor for a person's feelings of empowerment. Does a god exist, yes. Because a person can rise above the illusions of chaos and make himself god of his own universe. Your attitude towards G-d is a mirror of your own internal power. The paradox is this, Gd is man's madness that enables him to find a fixed point of sanity in the seemingly chaotic churning of his existence.

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I can handle hearing more about this when you have time. smile

          2. ceciliabeltran profile image80
            ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            that would be the consequence of people's underlying fears. fear tactics don't work on those who are not afraid to begin with.

            1. earnestshub profile image88
              earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I've noticed that! smile

            2. profile image0
              Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              you are pre-plagiarizing my notes before i finish writing the book?
              big_smile

              So funny how 'logical sensation' becomes the absolute asset, to the existing conscious engagement. Many swing on the pendulum of extreme pre-ism and then post-ism only to end up in the same place they began. But either side of the pitch is still the Ism.

              To consider any sensation, consciously, can only limit one to that sensation. Madness is just another guise of conscious limitation. Mashed Potatoes of thought. Still thought now buttered up with sense and salted with regret. Crazy stuff.

              1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Ey twenty one. geez, same page as always? please do not tell me we are writing the same book! (no fair, I've been working on mine for years) i'm going to have to re-read what you just wrote, because i think i missed something.

                1. Obscure Divine profile image56
                  Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I hope he doesn't "quote" others as much in his book, as you will, though...  LOL!
                  big_smile

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                    ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    quotes are cool.

                2. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                  ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I know the limitation is inevitable. something so large in scope must pass through the narrow lenses of human words and logic. But it is like unfolding a quilt the size of the entire mantel of the earth from a table napkin.

                  hence "it has not been tainted by the human tongue". it is virtually impossible to communicate its scope, yet it is so elegantly simple. Language cheapens it. Without language however it is nothing but madness.

                  i'll send you an email soon!

                  1. Obscure Divine profile image56
                    Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Yeah, it is called "pattern recognition."  Plain & simple...

  2. tantrum profile image61
    tantrumposted 7 years ago

    I'm waiting for the desert ! tongue

  3. WizardOfOz profile image60
    WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago

    "Religious beliefs and delusions alike can arise from neurologic lesions"

             Joseph M. Pierre MD, Faith or Delusion? At the Crossroads of Religion and Psychosis (Journal of Psychiatric Practice)

    1. tantrum profile image61
      tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Well, you have to have your brain damaged to believe in a God that doesn't exist !

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        gods are metaphors for states of consciousness (but personified). they do exist in another level of experience.  Those who are angry at the concept of gods are actually disillusioned by their own power to influence their destiny.

    2. Valerie F profile image60
      Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Doesn't account for the very many CT scans and MRI's of religious people that show no neurological damage.

      1. WizardOfOz profile image60
        WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I dunno Val, I am not the Medical Doctor who ran the research.  Care to share with us any reference to these very many scans and mris

        1. Valerie F profile image60
          Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Nobody has actually done any serious study testing any hypothetical link between religion and psychosis because the very idea defies common sense, but I can reference a case in which a devoutly religious young man was scanned for suspected hydrocephaly. CT scan showed nothing wrong, just a large cranial capacity.

          Most religious people are mentally sound and likely have sustained no neurological damage. Some have mental illness or have sustained some neurological damage. Most atheists are mentally sound and possessing undamaged brains as well. Some aren't.

          Linking belief or lack thereof with brain damage not only flies in the face of common sense, it is bigoted and insulting. It is also grossly insensitive to the mentally ill, because it comes across as suggesting that any position you happen to not like must somehow result from their mental illness rather than honest, thought out disagreement.

          1. WizardOfOz profile image60
            WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            hey look lady, I will gladly tell you i suffer from a diagnosed mental illness myself.

            The point remains, I started a thread, you joined in on the conversation.  I referenced a scholarly article in which a Medical Doctor, in a Psychiatric Journal has done SERIOUS STUDY TESTING on this very issue.  Furthermore, there has been more than one study on the subject.  As opposed to my referenced and THOUGHT OUT contribution what have you provided?

            I have been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, I have been under forced treatment and I have an IQ you probably couldn't dream of.  I got very good marks at university studying philosophy and that was without trying too hard and with an addiction to Class A drugs. 

            You have shown your own ignorance.  Mental illness has nothing to do with intelligence.  However, it does relate to physical brain disturbances.  I never made any sweeping generalisations.  I leave that to amateurs like yourself.

            1. Daniel Carter profile image88
              Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Having a great deal of personal experience with family and friends who have various forms of mental illness, I can verify that some of the brightest minds of all time have also suffered from a form of mental illness.

              The world would be an incredibly boring place without them. (Maybe that should be "us". I think we are all on the edge at times...)

              So favored Wiz, I got yer back.
              wink

            2. aguasilver profile image88
              aguasilverposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              It shows.... smile

              1. WizardOfOz profile image60
                WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                About what I expect from you, nothing intelligent.

            3. Rajab Nsubuga profile image61
              Rajab Nsubugaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Well said, Wizard, but you still have a problem!

            4. Valerie F profile image60
              Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Medical doctors have been wrong before, too, and serious scholarship does not draw conclusions based on one study.

  4. WizardOfOz profile image60
    WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago

    wink

  5. WizardOfOz profile image60
    WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago

    I strongly considered being a church pastor.  Still not ruled it out smile

    Easy money if you can swallow that pride.

    1. profile image0
      SirDentposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      If God has not called you to Pastor, how can you become a Pastor?

      Just so you know, most denominations check out PAstors before they allow them to Pastor. Some denominations require a written test to be taken by those who desire to pastor or preach. They do this to make sure the person knows the Bible well enough to do the job.

      1. tantrum profile image61
        tantrumposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        And all those TV pastors loaded as Hell? Did they pass the exam ? I wonder ! LOL
        I know the Bible better than most of them !

        1. Rajab Nsubuga profile image61
          Rajab Nsubugaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          You just have to put on enough clothes before theTV show, tantrum!

      2. WizardOfOz profile image60
        WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I study the bible regularly.  I have also quizzed long standing pastors and priests to test my knowledge.  The results were extremely satisfying.

      3. Rajab Nsubuga profile image61
        Rajab Nsubugaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I do fancy that Wiz would pass that test with an "A!"

    2. Daniel Carter profile image88
      Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, historically speaking, I believe you have to have a LOT of pride and an over abundance of arrogance in order to do well as an evangelist preacher. Their "charisma" is more about being daring and arrogance than it is good sense. People are somehow attracted to that like moths to a blowtorch.

  6. profile image0
    SirDentposted 7 years ago

    One might suggest that psychology itself is psychotic. Is it real or is it a delusion or an illusion?

    Religion, in it's simplest form, is following a certain set of rules and regulations. I am fairly certain that nearly everyone, if not everyone, follows certain rules in some form or another.

    1. WizardOfOz profile image60
      WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      psychology is not a fixed system.

      1. WizardOfOz profile image60
        WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        If 'one might suggest that psychology itself is psychotic' would one like to suggest how that conclusion might be drawn?

        nb.  psychiatry is not psychology.

    2. Obscure Divine profile image56
      Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yeah, but ya know, there is people out there that think our entire existence is an illusion.
      Yep, most people have guidelines to what they think is right or wrong; most of it stems from individual conscience.  But, why is it not left up to the individual?  Most, if not all, organized religions seem to cross over that line and tell you what is right or wrong without ever living in your shoes and/or seeing it from your side of the fence.  Is that right?

      1. WizardOfOz profile image60
        WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Religion is a machine of politics.

      2. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        religion is popcorn transcendental meditation. You know, some really cool dude get it, (hey bananas can grow everywhere if you plant to darn things!)they get banana nirvana! they get high, they share it to the rest of the jungle animals, the monkeys hear it, then they ape it(not really getting the whole concept of everybody can plant their own banana stalks and grow their own banana tree). cool dude dies, then, top monkey brings it back to down to jungle loop of "this is holy banana tree of cool dude, now line up and I give you banana, you there...line up and show me some respect you little stupid monkey, bow before holy banana tree to get banana!"

        1. Obscure Divine profile image56
          Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, that's where the phrase "going bananas" came from.  Hmm, I thought it related to people going bonkers.  wink

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
            ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            precisely, hence the bananas

            1. Obscure Divine profile image56
              Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I know; nice choice of fruit...  Ha-ha!

              1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                well it is about psychosis, no?

                1. Obscure Divine profile image56
                  Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  No sense of humor today, no?

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                    ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    i don't know how to do the emoticons, to tell you the truth. I can only do smile

    3. getitrite profile image79
      getitriteposted 7 years ago in reply to this



      Yes everyone lives by a certain set of rules and regulations, but religious rules require one to believe in superstition, magic, and things that are just against common sense.

      1. Valerie F profile image60
        Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Funny thing is that many religions actually prohibit superstition and magic.

        1. Daniel Carter profile image88
          Daniel Carterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Although they fail to see their own brands of superstition and magic for what they are. Without being disrespectful, transubstantiation comes to mind. There doesn't seem to be any real evidence that it's more than hearsay.

          1. WizardOfOz profile image60
            WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            we are all by nature superstitious, psych 101 Dan.  Psychosis and religion are both a little more extreme that superstition.  Magic... that's not even worth talking about.

          2. Valerie F profile image60
            Valerie Fposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            There is a difference bertween miracles and magic.

        2. WizardOfOz profile image60
          WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          That is rather awkward.  Religion is superstition so I will assume you are referring to Other superstitions?  Out of interest, seeing the thread is regarding religion and psychosis, are you either religious or psychotic or both?

          1. Obscure Divine profile image56
            Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Now that's funny!  LOL!  big_smile

        3. Obscure Divine profile image56
          Obscure Divineposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I mean, you're funny!  Ha-ha! big_smile

        4. ceciliabeltran profile image80
          ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          in my country there is a song that goes " the coconut nut is giant nut, if you eat too much you get very fat. the coconut nut is a giant nut but the coconut nut is not a nut, it's a coco fruit from a coco tree from the coco plant family"

          names names...i believe crazy people get lost in their unconscious reality. their insanity represents an internal struggle to unify a fragmentation of the self, where the self ceases to find its way back to being whole. the unconscious GPS is taking it around in a route using a different language. So the mind gets lost in the symbolism and fail to see how they translate in "real" life.

          In a way, religion founders (or inspirations, not necessarily founders) attempt to unify the fragmented truths but it is too submerged in the madness of man to successfully lift our awareness such that we will see why and where and when we have gone mad.

          The repair is exactly like slow process of self-therapy. Because there is no therapist, the crazy person has to make sense of his own madness. This is where we are now, we are trying to achieve some level of sanity by questioning what is sane. "what is reality?" sort of questions mirrors this.

    4. profile image68
      paarsurreyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Hi friend SirDent

      I agree with you. Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Zoroaster and Socrates were all normal persons doing day to day work better than others.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

    5. Beelzedad profile image59
      Beelzedadposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, but they don't include being sent to a lake of fire for all eternity to roast if I refuse to love the rule maker. smile

  7. profile image0
    sneakorocksolidposted 7 years ago

    Another"look at the stupid religious peoples" thread.

    Ha ha ha ain't they just the dumbest people! They believe in trying to be good and for what? You can't buy beer or cigaretes with any of that! Our commune has outlawed religion when we take our peyote we talk to aliens! And anyone who matters prefers aliens to God, he so not in, and the rules, are you serious! I'm going to do what ever I want to and nobody is going to tell me how to behave!

    Oh brother!

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      So - are you telling me that you genuinely think that religious people are "good" compared to nonreligious people?

      Better even?

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        No one is as fascinating as you Mark.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Your inability to say anything meaningful is duly noted. wink

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
            ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            yes it is true that there is nothing meaningful about your being fascinating.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Case in point. Sorry it bothers you that I am so fantastic. This is perhaps not the best place to work through your self esteem issues though.

              A "safe" place would probably be more rewarding. If you tell me where you are I am sure I can recommend some one. I have a lot of friends in that business.

              1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I think your awesome! What are you talking about? There is no rhyme or reason for you being fascinating and yet I can claim it, tell everyone in the room...hey mark is great and fascinating....why? Who cares, why? all these other guys are stupid! You're just great, and awesome and everyone here or in the planet, pales in comparison to your awesomeness.

                Who needs a shrink, when I can read your posts and beliefs and then I'm all better. You are such an inspirational character...

                OH, don't forget to define the correct definition of consciousness, please. (hanging on to what you'll say *sigh* and new recipes)

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Like I said - sorry it bothers you so much. And I am sure the sarcasm is good therapy for you. A lot of people use me for that - and that is OK with me.

                  You missed my point about the definition of "consciousness". There is no "correct definition," but it is important for the purposes of a meaningful discussion to agree to one that means something and differentiates consciousness from lack of consciousness. Otherwise one ends up having conversations such as the one you and marine were having. Woo Woo Word Salad.

                  How about "aware of one's individual mortality," as a good starting point?

                  1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
                    ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    well established definitions of consciousness are:

                    1. consciousness is a model of reality (Matthews take on Penrose and Hamerhoff)
                    2. consciousness is thinking (Hofstadter, to some extent Decartes)
                    3. consciousness is being aware (Farthing)

                    We asserted in previous forums that the definition is number 1. which leads to number 2 and finally at its most complex stage number 3.

                    We are not redefining consciousness, at least I was not. We were working on established definitions. Now I want to understand what why you got the impression that we (I believe in another forum) redefined it to the point that it is beyond you.

                    Going back to madness and religion, which is the topic of this forum. The thing which you perceive to be madness (namely mine or, maybe the mass hysteria that you accuse religion to be) is merely how those who are not aware of fractals perceive the jagged edges of the mountain ranges or the randomness of the trees in the forest are chaos, without rhyme or reason. The reality is, mathematically speaking, there is rhyme and reason for these forms and manifestations.

                    Fractals has various applications that includes the simulated explosions on Avatar or the breath of fresh air you will take ten years from now. It may even save you from a heart attack so you can brood about the mortality of your body. Fact is you are already participating in immortality by talking to people here. The interface is entering the meme machine. SO when you die, your words, this exchange will live on somewhere in the human collective consciousness.

                    You cannot understand the point because your model of reality is limited to your model of reality.  As for awesomeness...you are awesome, make no mistake. There is no sarcasm there. 99 score with thousands of fans is NOT nothing. it is something. BUT, that does not help your case against the existence of G-d or the validity of religion as an integral part of the evolution of our awareness.

                    Implying that other people are stupid from one forum to the next just because they have a different perspective is not an argument, it is a sign of somebody who is in the habit of self-persecution. You are awesome, mark.

  8. earnestshub profile image88
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    What I fail to comprehend is how a person could prefer to believe in an archetype as a real entity and confuse the two. smile

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
      ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      my dear, the archetype is a reality, but not a physical one. the underlying reality is non-physical, it is well waves and forces. they are movements and dynamics of essentially nothing. so does that make it less real? no. the physical world is a product of this reality that we personify as archetypes. as campbell puts it "it has not been soiled by the human tongue"

  9. RNMSN profile image89
    RNMSNposted 7 years ago

    just wish I too had some of their ill gotten gains instead of my own self created from pararnoid low self esteem and quillty psychosis caused majorly by so called christianity

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
      ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      he he...i wonder

  10. RNMSN profile image89
    RNMSNposted 7 years ago

    cool run on sentence though eh?

    1. earnestshub profile image88
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I thought it was cool, but I do a lot of my sentences that way, with several thoughts crammed in, sometimes even opposing other thoughts in the same sentence! lol

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        run on is my bad, always. need a forum editor.

      2. ceciliabeltran profile image80
        ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        myth by definition : metaphor. what its not: john runs like a deer. what it is: john is the deer. G-d is a metaphor for the elementary idea of man.It is a projection of the evolved man, so that evolution will follow that trajectory. as in buddha, jesus etc. religion is the crude map towards it.

        Madness that attempts to make sense of madness.

  11. profile image0
    Justine76posted 7 years ago

    I think this thread is causing psychosis....my eye is twitching after reading it..

 
working