Eternal security is the Bible confidence that every born again believer has a perfect,complete salvation in Jesus Christ.As soon as sinners recieved Christ,he posseses,full,unending salvation.To have Christ have a secure position before God.Though the Bible does not use the term "security to describe the beklievers relationship in Christ its have no doubt that the child of GOD IS ETERNALLY SAFE IN Christ. Eternal security refers only to those who are born again through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.It does not refer to hypocrites or to those who are merely dabbling in the things of Christ.Those who permanently fall away have never born again.How can we know and sure the true Christian are eternally secure?1.because of the term Salvation eternal life,john 3:16,1john5:11,12,13full assurANCE 2.BECAUSE OF WHAT WE ARE,THIS IS THE PRESENT CONDITION OF EACH TRUE BELIEVER 1.FORGIVEN romans4:7 2.justified romans5:1,9 3.child of God forever rom8:15 second:because of whAT we have1.Eternal life john3:16 2.peace with gOD ROM 5:1 3rd what is past 1.condemnation john5:242.death and wrath col.3:3 4rth because of promises 1.never perishjohn10:27,28 2.never die john11:26 3.saved from wrath rom:5:5,9 4.not appoineted to wrath but unto salvation 1thessalonians5:9
Born again means getting enlightened and Christ here stands for god and and the human.
So you feel saved ?
Now I wonder...
Saved from what ?
I have not checked these verses that are posted above. BUT
I bet ya a nickle that not a single one of them use the word " only" such as only whosoever bleieveth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
I once told my boys and their cousins that who ever helped me to do this chore would get lunch at Mc Donalds.
Half of them helped me. I asked those that did help me if they minded (and they didn't) if the other kids came with us.
I did not say "only" those that helped would bet a hamburger, so I didn't lie by taking whoom ever I pleased for hamburgers.
Jesus told a similar story about a farmer who went out looking for laborors. He paid all of them the same amount regardless of how long they worked!!! as HE "CHOOSE".
Or something like that
The way I understand scripture; it is not quite as exclusive as some people think. The way that it is written (uninterpreted) It is as inclusive as God wants for it to be.
But I'm crazzy ... and nobody has got to believe me.
the bible open says john 3:16 whosoever bieliveth have everlsting life,only those who believede shall be save,but not all will believe HIM.
Actually, Jesus does say that salvation is exclusive to those who choose him.
Many are fond of quoting John 3:16 which says:
'For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.'
But not so many continue to follow what Jesus says in the next four verses:
'For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
'And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.'
What Jesus is saying is that damnation is mankind's default position from which only faith in him can free us.
The reason is that only Jesus lived a sinless life and died for our sins, which means that while all our sins were imputed to him, all of his righteousness was imputed to us.
That means that Salvation is a judicial mechanism by which God satisfied the law's just requirement for blood by pouring out his wrath on his own Son in our stead.
God does not, nor ever has nor ever will, forgiven sin. He forgives sinners, when they place their faith in his Son who paid the penalty for sin that they deserved.
God's part in this transaction is called grace (unearned, undeserved and unmertited favour). Our part is faith. Which is why the Bible says we are saved by grace through faith. Both are necessary, and even then both are provided by God, because even our faith is a gift of grace.
So, we err when we fear that we can lose our salvation. What we should guard against is hardening our heart to the extent that our faith dwindles away. If that happens lose the meas by which we are able to approporiate God's grace.
There are two I's.
The first i denotes the human.
The second I denotes god.
Here Jesus is peaking from the point of view of god similarly to how Krishna spoke.
JONH3:16 JESUS said whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life...he did not come to the good but to the sinners...
Why is it that you do not know the origins of these stories. I guess you don't want to challenge your beliefs, so it is easier to just believe the "good book."
No credibility in that.
Either refute the older stories that came before, or stop spouting rubbish would be my cut on it.
the true story we found only in the bible,,,
That is a flat statement without any supporting argument. What does it mean? NOTHING at all, because you don't even know what came before do you? What and where is your argument? There is no proof for your bible, but there is proof of the Egyptian gods this all came from!
Posts got crossed on that one Jerami, it was aimed at the OP.
I know was just tickiling at your foot a bit
was expecting ya to answer wasn't talking to me BUT if the shoe fits or something like that.
Any way Howdy to ya I am goina go fall down on the bed again good night.
is not scary because it is GODs word,and that what i believed....
Eternal security?? More like security for eternity.
If it's anything, it's "Eternal Liberty".
Eternal L I F E ! !
Eternal Security is the free gift that God gave us when His Son Jesus Christ died on the cross. When we accept this gift we will have eternal life. It is a gift that can not be bought or earned, it is received by faith when we believe. Many can not understand how simple it is to accept this gift.
I know it's hard for many to understand this but it is for real. God loves us with an agape love (unconditional). He is not harsh or stern, He is so loving, patient and kind. He loves everyone and wants everyone to accept this gift.
One of the key things that you will notice when one is born again is the love they will have for one another, even those who do not like them.
The only eternal security your "agape" god has in store for me is a lake of fire. I don't wish to accept this loving gift from him. Is that okay?
Yes, you are absolutely right, because that is precisely what Jesus said in John 3:17-18 -
'For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through him. He who believes on him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.'
Jesus didn't come to make bad people good, he came to make dead people alive.
This planet has seen many enlightened ones and not only Jesus.
He said" I tell ye you are all gods" Jesus, This passage from John is a corrupted version of what Jesus said
Every human is the son of god" the kingdom of god is within" Jesus
no,not every one are become the child of GOD,ONLY THOSE WHO ACCEPT CHRIST IN THEIR HEAR....JOHN1:12
the bible never corrupt ,mans word always lie those who said bible is corrupt. God will corrupt his or her soul in hell
why not accept the free gift for you ?its free,its from GOD!So you can have christ in your heart..
Sorry, but Allah and a host of other gods are all lined up for you and I to provide an answer as to why we didn't worship them. You'll burn in Islamic hell if you can't convince Allah. Why don't you just accept Allah?
and because your god is allah,somedays you will be shouting in the place hell that God prepared for satan and his angels because your god is ALLAH NOT GOD WHO MADE ALL THINGS..
And, as usual, I deeply respect that you and your god will send me to hell. Deeply.
I'M not GOD to send you to hell,GOd is the owner of our life so GOD can only do that....
Your "god" was around thousands of years before the bible or any other sky fairy mentioned in the religious tomes written by a bunch of controlling sexist old men.
These stories are repeats of stories already told! The only difference is who you worship. Any entity that requires worship is psychotic.
My God is the Ist and the Last,He is no ending and everlasting...
A religionists statement. No proof, no facts, no investigation in to what has been said about the rubbish in the bible that came from other stories thousands of years before. You are wasting my time, I'm outta here!
If you have enough guts to find out, you can trace these beliefs back to thousands of years before your books. All this religious crap was written thousands of years before you read it in your tomes.
Another suggestion is to balance your serotonin levels and then get back to me about your "god!"
Never saw a single religionist keep there beliefs with balanced brain chemistry.
The fear which retains your belief becomes apparent immediately after onset and you will laugh at the incredible crap you swallowed to avoid an irrational fear. All religion is simply insanity driven by deep sub-conscious terror. Once confronted this fear dissipates leaving no reason to continue ruining your life trying to ram this crud down other peoples throats to ward off the terror felt within.
Looks like you went off the deep end and on a tangent posting Earnest - apparently your assumption on whose brain chemicals are imbalanced is askew
Don't know anything about brain chemistry h.a.borcich?
Never mind, I can recommend some good scientific studies if you like.
Or you can take the challenge.
Like I said. get back to me when you find out that your beliefs are just inner terror.
If you believe in the God of the Bible, there's no option but to be scared LOL
Just so! don't worship me? You die a horrible death! More like hitler than any sort of intelligent entity!
Yeh right! The sky fairy will get ya! What an incredibly naive pile of crud this stuff is!
Your god could crawl under the carpet with a high hat on and not leave a bump!
My God does not terrify me You are just playing a game claiming to know what and why I believe what I do!
Do you really think it looks sane for anyone to post numerous insults and inflamitory remarks to people he is calling chemically unbalanced?
I think it is sad but funny that you think you are the sane one !!!
Sad eh? Now that is funny!
You would like all religionists be more likely to tell me I am going to rot in hell because I don't believe in your sky fairy. Now that would be a fine definition of insanity!
Everything you post in christianity threads is vulgar Earnest and you are proud of it. Then you brazenly call christians chemically imbalanced and full of hate...I am suspecting you fulfill your description of a christian!
Somehow I think your next move will either be to demand proof or spout scripture. Either way I think the hate you have will be evident through out your post. It isn't debate, discussion or anything civil - just insults you are throwing out there. Has it occurred to you such behavior on your part looks like insanity? But you keep doing that - I am 100% sure the christians aren't about to abandond their bibles over it, and I am optomistic that most nonbelievers are unimpressed as well.
Have a great day!
I love this! "Vulgar, full of hate", etc etc, followed by have a nice day! typical!
As I have said before, I don't do hate, I leave that to your god.
Here is some scripture so you can deny it, say it is out of context, or that you reckon it is OK to be a psychopathic invisible entity.
"Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! "But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' "You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD Almighty, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not shrivel before they are ripe," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 3:8-11 NLT)
(Doesn't it seem really stupid that an all-powerful God claims he can bring food and grapes to the masses but he can't even feed himself?)
No insanity here! .... much
God canno't feed himself because He is a perfect GOD....
People can't cheat GOD...cause God is everywhere...
This statement makes absolutely no sense. Do you even think about what you write here? Could you explain what you mean? But don't use scripture, please.
Explain about God but don't use scripture???
Maybe ask a baker to make a cake without flour - makes as much sense wouldn't you say?
Your analogy doesn't make sense. I fail to see the comparison.
TY for so poignantly proving my point!
Your responses are the same trite attempts to "dance-around-the-barn" inanely ranting adhominem attacks about how those who challenge you are intolerant and taunting....instead of being honest and admitting that you can't accept my challenge because I am right!
Your belief is based, totally, on "hope" and that there is no scripture in any monotheistic tome that defines this god thing in any form other than opinion. So this god thing is but a figment of your imagination and that of your ilk.
Your inability to respond in a manner other than "emotionally" speaks volumes in ref. to your lack of intellectual prowess.
I tell it as I see it. No insult intended.
I have now added you to my list of those whom I consider not worthy of a response.....:-)
i need to use scRiptures because i base on the word of GOD
I'm gonna offer you the same challenge I offer all believers in this biblical god thing.
It's a challenge you, as a zealous believer in fairytale divinities, should be able to win...but can't.
Here it is: Pls provide, for all of us, scripture in the bible, torah, or qur'an that "defines" (not proves) this god thing in any other form than "opinion."
If you cannot do that (and you can't) then you base your belief in this god thing on nothing but "opinion" which is based soley upon "hope."
To guide ones beliefs, life and actions on naught but "hope" is insane.
You know you can't win this challenge, so you, just like all other easily led followers of supernatural divinities, won't accept the challenge.
Remember, I said: "DEFINE" this god thing in scripture in other than "opinion."
And this "challenge" would prove what?
You call me a "zealous believer in fairytale divinities", say things like "this god thing", "hope" , "easily led followers of supernatural divinities" and think I consider your insults a debate? LMAO
This "challenge" would at least give you an opportunity to refute these statements.
I have read the bible. It says the garbage the OP says that it says.
Believe or die.
You claim to be a bible-believing Christian. Presumably you either agree with this - or you have decided to re-write the bible to mean whatever it is you want it to mean - like all the other Xtians.
Yet you cannot even define this invisible god you claim to worship.
How is "followers of super natural divinities" an insult? It is a statement of fact.
You are easily led because you have been offered the nonsensical prize of eternal life, Only If You Believe ; your god is super natural, he is a divinity and you do follow it. And - you want to fight about it.
Thank you. It is people like you who taught me that this is utter nonsense. If you were a genuine christian - what would you be doing here defending this super natural divinity that you follow?
But - I am genuinely interested to hear your definition of this god thing. I have spent 45 years asking believers to define it and all I ever get is "you would not understand because you don't believe. I am special and I understand it but I cannot define it, and you need to do as I say because I know what it wants," or alternatively, contradictory gobbledegook like our self-proclaimed condescending gnostics offer which means, "Everything is god and I know something you don't know. Nya nya ne nya nya!"
Which is funny - because when I did believe - the answer was "don't ask to define the undefinable - just believe and you will have eternal life. Now shut up and do as I say because I know what it wants......."
So - no offense intended - I am genuinely interested in your definition of whatever it is that you worship.
And you assume I MUST accept this challenge? Your verbage is less rude than Earnest or any of the other atheistic zealots? What a joke Mark! I truly believe your bible bashing gang is chemically unbalanced AND DEAF!! Just because I believe something different than you does not mean I am shoving it down your throat but you surely claim it is true! OH, my, Mark has demanded I explain my faith to him blah, blah, blah! Like you really want my answers!!
Tell me this...Why are you and your herd constantly taunting in every christian and christian living thread? Do you think shoving your garbage around is going to change anything? Do you think being insulting will win FSM points? Is it an inability to be tolerant of anything that is not a ditto of you? Dogs and gangs trying to mark territory comes to mind.
In Pandoras thread about people afraid to enter the religion forums I answered what I believe and why. Maybe you were banned and missed it - but I posted there. And there was honest debating going on Mark! If the answer isn't up to your godless belief standard - whose problem is it? Not mine as I am just fine being who I am. If you were fine with what you believe - why would you bother wasting a keystroke in christian threads?
Just to be clear - I have not said what anyone else should believe - But I have been prepared to fight at how rude the nonbelievers have been on this thread. Are you and Earnest too dense to figure out insulting people you openly dispise only makes you bullies? Of course you do Enough of your gobbledegook - I am bored and tired of trying to explain kindergarten rules of respect with you guys. Good luck with that!
It is the way of the militant atheists. They simply do everything they can to get a reaction from you. It is called trolling for lulz.
Interesting that H.A. has decided to argue using chemical imbalance all of a sudden! Laughed my socks off!
Earnest, have you forgotten this insulting post of yours?
"If you have enough guts to find out, you can trace these beliefs back to thousands of years before your books. All this religious crap was written thousands of years before you read it in your tomes.
Another suggestion is to balance your serotonin levels and then get back to me about your "god!"
Never saw a single religionist keep there beliefs with balanced brain chemistry.
The fear which retains your belief becomes apparent immediately after onset and you will laugh at the incredible crap you swallowed to avoid an irrational fear. All religion is simply insanity driven by deep sub-conscious terror. Once confronted this fear dissipates leaving no reason to continue ruining your life trying to ram this crud down other peoples throats to ward off the terror felt within."
Posted 3 days agoreplypermalinkreport
All of a sudden, huh? Maybe you could use some ginko or something. I bet there is a hub on memory loss here somewhere.
I never demanded anything. Nor did I ask you to explain your faith to me. I never said anything other than pointed out the truth of quark's statement and told you I was genuinely interested in your definition of this god thing.
Honest debating? I asked you a genuine question and this tirade is honest debating? I am not taunting - but - did you even read the opening statement of this thread?
No - all you see is believer vs non believer - jump in on the believer's side. Hence my disdain for your religion. It is divisive and causes conflict.
Have you even read your bible? Your bible clearly tells me I should believe in the Christian god - for a number of reasons - most of which are punishment and/or withdrawal of rewards for not doing so.
This is the book you believe in - right? So - we are back to this - either you do believe what it says - or you have rewritten it to suit yourself. Which is it?
Anything there you can complain to hubpages about as being a personal attack?
It is pointless to attemp a discussion with you - everyone knows it! Words get changed, your insults, yadda, yadda, yadda.
All it boils down to is your inablility to tolerate a belief different than your own and be nice about it.
Yes, I can read I did respond to the OP - can't you flipping read? Of course you aren't taunting anyone - you are just insulting! Yes - I have called out people on BOTH sides for being rude but now I just don't care anymore. Now you ask if I have even read my Bible!!! What do you think Mark? hmm. Do you think I would believe in something without even reading the book? Oh yes - that goes with your messed up theory of "genuine xtians". Do I believe the bible or have I rewritten it? WHICH IS IT? ( <-- A demand maybe?) You think I should report you to hubpages? Oh, that must be another imagined taunt from you. Sheesh.
Now that was productive wasn't it? You do not listen to anything said to you, you claim things get shoved down your throat, yet deny your blatant behavior. Tired and bored, you have become a repetitive gong. Done with you.
You're very angry. Why? Just take the challenge, and negate Qwark's and Mark's claim. No insult from me, just a straight-forward request.
I see no essential difference between the fulminating Atheist and the most irritating fundamentalist. Both are coming from a position of insecurity.
They're usually going for an "I sure showed him or her!", kind of thing. They tend to put up a 5-year-old's understanding of a particular faith, and then attack THAT. Read something by Augustine of Hippo and learn about not taking scripture as literal. Read about the School of Alexandria and Origen for an even fuller treatment of that. For something really intellectual, read something by Rudloph Bultmann to understand the Kerygma and his 'demythologizing the Bible" theory. Or google any of these great thinkers and take the time to understand them, if even at an introductory level.
To attack Christian faith on the basis of a literal, simplistic interpretation of scripture is to argue based on an incomplete understanding, and it is no different than someone attacking the Theory of Evolution by concluding that it says men evolved from apes--which it clearly does not say.
A little bit of knowledge is good, but you have to drink deeply.
Does this apply to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc? And, really, why would God write a book that needs to be interpreted by another mortal? Something reeks here.
Yes, it applies to all the Abrahamic faiths, in my view--and the Atheist faith also (it's a faith, after all. It's faith in the primacy of human understanding and the efficacy of the scientific method to reveal truth). Faith is not verifiable in the academic sense, but instead, depends on your having had the same or similar subjective experience. It is like the concept of Love. I find that I cannot explain it in rational terms and give someone any meaningful understanding of that truth. You had to be there, so to speak. Think of Wine. Can I really impart what it tastes like to someone who has not tasted it? This is what Christians say when they often assert that you "get it or you don't". And it's important to emphasize that this is not, in my view anyway, a value judgement. It may be that I have a disorder that you don't. But nevertheless, I can't deny my subjective reality. Think of it this way. Could you believe, even if you wanted to? Most people cannot 'choose" to believe by force of will. Similarly, some people "cannot not" believe. Some Christian theologies call that "irresistible grace"--but that's another story.
God didn't "write" a book in the literal sense. Not in my view, nor the view of many other Christian theologians. That's the dumbed-down interpretation of Christianity. And, well, all phenomenon require interpretation to understand them better.
The Hindu saint Ramakrishna used to say that, when understanding the many apparent contradictions between religions, it was like many blind people touching the same elephant. One says it's a tail, the next says it's like a smooth, large surface, and a third says it's like a trunk, etc. They're all talking about the same reality from different vantage points. Neither is wrong. But neither is complete, of itself. And I would add that the Atheist, too, is "touching the elephant", which is why i do not say they are wrong, but just not complete in their understanding.
Much of this difficulty goes back to our either/or Newtonian worldview. This is in opposition to a both/and worldview. You know, a particle can be in two places at the same time, Heidegger's Cat, Heisenberg, quantum physics and all that. But the word "choose" implies a binary reality. This is the paradox and the mysterious burden of the human soul, I think. At the end of the day, I seem forced to choose, because I must act. And yet, I feel two things at once: that I did not choose, and that I did choose.
Now, for me at least, given this perplexing situation, the best source for life's meaning is Christianity. It's like a programming language that lets me get to where I need to be. "I believe in order to understand", as Augustine said. It's not the only language, but it seems to me to be the most useful one. It's not a doctrine of science, just as science isn't a doctrine of value or meaning. They reside in separate domains, or are touching 'different parts of the elephant', to extend Ramakrishina's metaphor a little further. This is also the whole idea of Non-overlaping Magisteria of Stephen J. Gould (a good read, by the way).
But I do go on. I doubt anyone has read this far...LOL.
Amazing and fantastic analysis of the believers propensity to believe despite overwhelming contradictions. No insult intended, but this analysis fits the definition of delusional.
Well - I have read it, and you are - as you must do to go this route - making a rather large assumption that not only does life have "meaning," but that Christianity has effectively captured this meaning and transmitted it to you.
I read and studied the same book as you and came to a rather different viewpoint. So perhaps you could tell me what the meaning of life is?
I don't need to believe to understand - and the rather sorry state us humans find ourselves in is - as far as I am concerned - perpetuated by the bible rather than corrected by it. Which is I think - the original intention (correction, not perpetuation.)
And I think the mistake made was to invent God. Take a god out of the picture and we must necessarily become self reliant, and must also develop our own morals. Which - as another recent thread discussed are fluid in any case - but we always ascribe this to some outside force.
Religion in general and Christianity in particular is holding us back I think.
And if you cannot easily explain the meaning of life in a forum post - perhaps you could tell me two things that you have learned from Christianity that you could not have leaned from a secular source?
A good response, Mark. I do understand where you're coming from. There are times when I feel no meaning whatsoever, and times when Christianity seems absurd and all the things I have heard others say on here. And yet, there are other times, when I makes sense, on some level, for reasons I do not understand. I do not pretend to have some inside truth or scoop on all this.
It has something to do with Love, and the pain of this life. It has something to do with hope, and meaning, and life in the context of something larger. It has something to do with the absolute. Yes, one can have all those things without religion.
I am not a literalist. I think religion and secularism can coexist and be complimentary.
I disagree. There is no room for compromise in the bible. It is the perfect word of God and will always - always - be used by some one for personal abuse of the masses.
It say so right there in the bible.
And the real problem is your response. "something to do with Love, and the pain of this life. It has something to do with hope, and meaning, and life in the context of something larger. It has something to do with the absolute."
A little vague I am sure you will agree. But - these are normal thoughts once we become aware of our own mortality. Christianity claims to have the answer. But does not.
I will take you at your word that you have studied the deeper meanings of the bible - and the best you can come up with is "something to do with".
Don't get me wrong - I am far more accepting of that answer than I am of someone who claims to be certain.
But - 99% of the self-proclaimed Christians are certain they have an answer when they do not. Deep down they know this as well. If they genuinely believed and had learned how to escape the human condition - we would be living in utopia - instead - they bicker and argue and fight to defend the faith and are money grubbing back-biting hypocrites just like the rest of us.
Mark, you stated an absolute right here. That 99% of the "self proclaimed" Christians, do not. But really Mark, how do YOU know that? It is something that you believe to be true? Or is it something rather, that you know? How can you be so sure what YOU believe is correct? (concerning Christians that is).
Here again, you make it absolute in stating that deep down we know this is true. So in essence you are saying that, you know the hearts and minds of believers? That you being educated by man so much so and to the extent of that you can affirm so boldly that what you believe, what you have been taught, what you have been conditioned to know, is true and not only true, but the only truth? So the condition of the world we live in is brought on by believers, not truly believing? You might have a point there to some extent, but not entirely accurate. The utopia you speak of here is only found in God. The bickering, arguing, hatred, malice etc. is found in the hearts of man- this is true. Man is fallible, man sought the knowledge of good AND evil. We are by definition then, both. Can a Christian, argue? Yes. Can a Christian, step out of the will of God and lie, cheat, steal and do other things contrary to the word of God, as do a lot of humans? Yes. That's our free will. God does not zap us all into perfectness when we accept him. The reason? He wants us to choose to do the right thing. To make the right choices. Do we fail? Absolutely. And that right there Mark, is the only absolute we can be sure of. Do some believers fail at doing Gods will most of the time, I would have to say yes. There are some that do. Do ALL? No. Some try to live according to Gods word and will, most of the time. So it's really up to the individual. Do those choices affect the people around us? Sometimes. Does that make this world a less than perfect place? Yes and No. Yes in that, if people choose to do the wwrong thing, go against the will of God, we will at times end up hurting the people around us and society in general as we contribute to the negatives. But no in that, if ALL people were to live in Gods Will, then we would have a perfect society. How can you go wrong or make bad choices if everyone lived their lives, loving all, sinning not, and applying God's Word? But his would have to be ALL people doing this. And that is nearly impossible when you have so many who do not believe and others who do and choose to fail.
But let me put it to you this way:
If all of us believers suddenly decided that no matter what we were going to live our lives completely sin free. We not only said this, but actually did it, would the world then suddenly be this utopia you speak of? would there no wars, famine, murder, lying, adultery etc.? No. Because you would still have those who would choose to do those things. You can escape human condition Mark. It is possible. But the world, is so conditioned not to that we have what we have and do what we do.
As I said - the bible and Christianity does not have an answer. You agree it seems.
No one can live according to god's word because 1, there is no such thing, 2, unless everyone agrees and follows the same god's word, there will be conflict, and 3, none of you believers can agree on what it says.
Good. Time to get rid of this ridiculous notion - because it is stopping us from moving forwards. Maybe then we could work together and find something that does not result in artificial rationing of the resources and does not causes these fights.
What say you believer? Are you prepared to do the right thing and live in harmony with the rest of us instead of claiming to have an answer when you do not?
Let me guess - you are a believer? Sorry - I attack the Christan faith based on a full understanding of it, an in depth study of the history behind it and a study of the historical implications and wars caused by it.
How anyone can read the bible and come to the conclusion there is a god is beyond me. And - lest we forget - the fundamentalist Christians are the ones I have the most argument with. Or shall we pretend they do not exist?
Fantasy land where all religion is good and not needing to be argued against because the last 2000 years of conflict never happened. Look at the paintings.......
But I want the last word Holly. Pointless to attempt to discuss with me? If by that you mean I will not accept your god - I guess so - yes. Doesn't stop you verbally abusing me though.
But - at least we agree that this belief causes conflict and fights.
That is the thing Mark ---- I never once asked you to accept my God! You operate on that assumed premise, not I. I say we can each believe what we want and for whatever reasons we want. You are not so tolerant. How convienient you cannot recall how abusive you are on these threads! The conflict is a result of your repeated and relentless antagonism. Own up would you.
So - you are saying that the bible does not say the things it says? In which case - you - like all the other xtians - have rewritten it to suit yourself. How convenient for you.
Come on - how are the last 2000 years of wars anything to do with me? Be hones - accept your war mongering bible for what it is.
I accept that I am antagonistic to your religion. Why? Nothing antagonistic in the bible - and you are not being antagonistic now.
Own up to the fact that the wars cause by your religion are the reason I am antagonistic towards it. And you are perpetuating a fight to defend it right now.
The fact that you still have no takers seems to me a confirmation of your assertions. Fear seems to be in the drivers seat, and believers are merely riding shotgun.
Getitrite, over the two years I have been posting here I have never seen a religionist reply sensibly to, or even address these issues. they just avoid it or quote from the "good book" They never confront what is written in their tomes, never answer any scientific assertions, or follow links that may threaten their beliefs.
I feel confident that they avoid doing so as they may have to learn something new that disagrees with them and provides reasonable proof.
So many of us have tried, we have all failed.
In 2000 years not a sign of proof. Not one prayer answered that has any proof despite millions of prayers daily, not one dot of proof for their beliefs, and no capacity to see the stupidity of a "god" who has to be worshipped on threat of death!
It is simply irrational fear of death that drives this nonsense!
What about them pristine virgins that are the reward for the sacrificed Muslims? Does that count for any damn thing? Ha-ha!
Yep! Gotta consider that! The Muslim terrorists who blow themselves and others to bits do it for the virgins apparently.
I dunno what use the virgins would be to a body that is spread over a couple of acres!
Quoting scripture and in denial about hating Insanity for sure. Predictable !
H.A Why don't you and other religionists just address the issues raised in your book of hate?
That would be the sane thing to do. What you think of me in none of my business.
This has been addressed many times over the months. You do not see because you either can't see it, or you don't want to see it.
Of course then you start the insults talking about sky fairies and such, when you alreay know without a doubt who God really is.
So tell me, where is all the love you propose that you have?
I didn't think you had read any of my hubs!
Decreased activity in the brain's parietal lobe is one of the causes of religiosity by the way. I may do a complete hub on brain chemistry.
I find religion to be an insult to thinking.
Dopamine uptake when disproportionate and unbalances causes belief in all sorts of bullsh*t phenomena such as religion, and lessens the capacity to be rational.
Without knowing anything about it, you just keep spouting this stuff in a vain attempt to persuade others because the sub-conscious already knows it is rubbish.. That is what drives religionists to ram this crap down others throats.
Of course none of you will ever do a thorough investigation of this, as you would then have to look at yourselves.
I wonder where you will get yopur info from to write that hub. I believe psychology to be bad myself. Freud was an atheist who hated Jews. It seems to me that he had an agenda.
Freud was a bit loopy wasn't he? He got some very important things right though, although his basic dislike of religion was poorly based. Modern psychology (Jungian and post Jungian)is another matter altogether.
Jung created enough empirical evidence of his beliefs over forty odd years to sink a ship, and denial of much of it would be drawing a very long bow indeed, and would not stand the light of day. I have enough knowledge of brain chemistry to walk in doing 10 hubs on it. Peer reviewed, double blind studies I have about 20 meg of it. I like to read. I have all of Jung, most of Hillman, all of Von Franz and ten years worth of brain chemistry data to call on.
I also know the bible and quoran from cover to cover, and would bet you do not have the same depth of knowledge of brain chemistry and psychology as I have of your beliefs. SirDent.
If you know anything about mechanical things you can check to see if I tell the truth or not about what I say I know very easily.
If Freud ewas so loopy, what makes you think he actually got some things right and how do you know what is and what isn't right?
So could you please tell me what it is that we can't see. It's not that I don't want to see it, I can't see it.
Before I try and explain anything I need to ask this question. Didn't you used to believe and go to church?
I really don't like it when there is a post and people get into debates that are in no way connected to the subject. Or they are led off the actual subject and create a debate. Twenty years ago we as Christians did not have to set proof of the everlasting God. Now we do, it is truly sad. The fool in his heart will say there is no God. I love my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! If that makes me imbalanced then so be it. He died for my sin, a debt of sin I could not repay. Jesus said if these did not praise me the rocks would cry out. I sometimes wish for one day we as Christians could all be quiet, let nature cry out to their creator. But Jesus has commissioned believers to go out and compel them to come in, He told us to teach of His love. So therefore, I must go out, I must teach. Not as some brainwashed fool, but because of grace. Unmerited free grace. A pardon of sin that costs me nothing but my Jesus His earthly life. I don't understand it, in my 50 years of life it still amazes me how much Christ loves me. To see and feel His hand at work, to know the peace that only He can give, it all still amazes me.
It's great how you can testify how great and loving this psychopath God of yours is, while he tells you to call us FOOLS! Very small for a God.
And yes, it is sad(for you) that intelligent people are demanding accountability for the lies religion has gotten away with for centuries. We are progressing!-something that strikes fear into the heart of religion.
I'm not religious. Religion is nothing more than man's own way of recognizing God. Whether that be in worship or in disbelief. I for one have accepted Christ as my Saviour, as the one who paid my debt of sin. God did not tell us to say those who say there is no God are fools, God said it. I find it interesting people will believe happenings from thousands of years ago but refute the Bible. Say there is no God. I find it disheartening that we as Christians will take those same people and spew hatred towards them instead of falling upon our needs and praying for them. I do not hate those that disagree with me. I do have the compassion to remember them and pray for them.
So a loving God is insulting me, by calling me a fool? Doesn't make Him look that smart either, since He made me. Why would He go and make fools, when He could have just made us all wise...you know-like you!
I would like to know what you call religious then.
Where did you get your belief system from, a weeties packet?
The only sources of this tripe is religious tomes. I find it highly amusing when a religious believer says "I'm not religious"
Hi Earnest - be careful, the last time insults were mentioned a little tribe turned up to get others banned
GOD said those who said there no God that is atheist and he or she are atheist,is fool.Not all people are wise by Gods word,you can be wise by world wisdom,but not accepted by GOD....
A Modest Proposal:
Let us, as post-modern, enlightened people (at least the 15% of the planet who are atheists (that number subject to further study)) move to ban all religion on the basis of it being a psychological condition.
All religious activities will be forcibly stopped. This includes the most egregious ones: wars, skirmishes, televangelism, etc. Charity work shall also stop. Let's face it, good works done on the basis of a myth are misguided and must not be tolerated. We will call this new initiative the "Atheist Inquisition". it will involve torturing suspected Theists and monitoring their responses. Confessions such as "God damn, that hurts!" are clear evidence of hidden belief. The punishment shall be death. Better to lose the body in the name of the truth than to let it continue on the basis of a lie.
The world will be such an improved place. Better to die feeling alone and abandoned than at peace and deluded. No more pesky religious people showing up at the door with good intentions. No more foolish attempts at alleviating suffering in the name of "God". Let's take charge of our own destiny people! We, as the ultimate understanders of reality, have no need for a fictional entity. Such thinking is a relic from the past and must be discarded.
Bibles shall be banned. They will be replaced with books about natural science and mathematics. Only those things that are objectively verifiable shall be printed. Families will gather around books on science and math. The concept of love is suspicious, but not as odious as the God Concept. Let's face it, love is subjective, and can only be proven on the basis of compared subjective experience. As such, it must be regarded as questionable. Poetry too contains silly, unrealistic expressions. It should be stopped for that reason.
Much art, because it does not depict the 'real' in an accurate manner must also cease. What kind of idiot would look at an abstract sculpture and get anything worthwhile from the experience? In fact, let's ban all metaphor and allegory. They are clearly dangerous and signs of weak thinking.
The point isn't that these things are useful. The point is that they are not strictly scientific or reflective of rational thinking. So let's ban together and eliminate the flawed thinking that plagues 3/4 of humanity. Who's with me?
All these comments & answers make me remember when I was in prep school
By the way H.A.Borich, the original post was not even directed at you! You took it on as if you were the only person here. Check it out.
Then you tell me I have problems in a smart a*sed way and laugh at the brain chemistry comment. Next thing I see you using my argument against Mark!
"What a joke Mark! I truly believe your bible bashing gang is chemically unbalanced AND DEAF!!"
Your words I believe!
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