Neo-platonists, Kabbalists & many Mysticists often refer to a faith system where the concept of spirit, soul & its relationship with God plays major part. Concepts such as Nirvana, Reincarnation & Karma often depict God as light, as the source of every creation & state the divine nature of Soul.
The importance of soul can be seen almost in every religion. Abrahamic religions which don’t believe in Reincarnation or Nirvana, still conforms to the importance & everlasting nature of soul. According to their faith system, its like:
Now since science has blessed us with the ability to Clone Humans, we can easily doubt & find out the validity of the above mentioned faiths & believes. For instance, we can present our religious friends with new puzzles :
If there is an eternal divine soul inside everyone then what is inside of a newly cloned human being? Are we just cloning the human body or are we cloning the soul at the same time?
That’s not all, here comes the intriguing part: Everyone is well aware of the second coming of Jesus. Now when Jesus comes, what if we take a sample DNA from him and clone him? (Most Kabbalists, Jews & Christians would find it offending for sure, but I think even if Jesus comes back, he would be a very open minded man & will support the scientific cause).
Now just for the sake of the argument, we can assume that when we are cloning a person we are just cloning the body, not the soul. May be the same soul gets multiplied each time when we clone someone. Thus we are not creating any divine soul & giving our religious friends a break. However, since Jesus has a God spirit or since his soul has reached the level of God, his clones will have the same quality souls. Therefore, when we clone him, his clones are probably going to possess same divine souls as he has.
Doesn't that mean we can create multiple sons of God??
Or more precisely: Can we create Gods by ourselves?? Clone Gods??
Ahh, Im just waiting for his second coming. Good times ahead. Just think of the future marketing campaign of Cloning institutes. Just imagine a paper ad or TV ad of the future:
- Clone Gods, Anybody? & During off seasons...
- Buy one God & Get one free!
Finally, Everyone Can Have a Savior of Their Own...
<URL snipped - no self-promotion in the Forums>
Excerpt from the hub: Buy One God & Get One Free!
It's not a matter of whether we could do this or that or not;
it's a matter of if we should or not.
I could get falling down drunk just to start a fight with my wife
and anyone else......but should i.
What God have done,and what humankind attemp to do,
can not fit in the same mole nor will have the same outcome.
This is a great discussion topic for all to read. I believe man was formed from the dust of the ground. So if scientists want to impress someone, they need to make their OWN dust, form a man, and then breathe into his nostrils the breath of LIFE!
U mean cloning doesnt impress u dat much?
I guess they will get around to it sometime. But if you are of a religious nature then this is a serious question - if we clone a person (we know it can be done) then does that clone have a soul and will all your duplicate copies have a place in your heaven, or if they do bad s**t then a place in your hell?
I guess Human Cloning will be a significant threat for the existence of souls in the upcoming cults
It certainly creates a question bud !
As we know that we can create clones of ourselves that would mean that we would also have created a soul - bit of a dilemma there for our religious friends I think.
is there any respect for god left in anyone, i mean really is there?
Wasnt looking for this type of response...not exactly like dis
Two issues here - most people no longer believe in any god, but we still have a hankering for some outside force that defines good and evil. Mainly (in my view) because most people are terminally confused and look for some kind of lead. The busting of the god myth unfortunately leaves the door wide open for occultists, magic-ists, and a whole panoply of other self seeking fraudsters.
The second issue is that many religious people promote the whole thing in a self seeking way that further alienates people's respect.
my response, you mean,, i thought this was a debate, what response did you want. Buy one get one free, to me is a disrespectful title, but i am living in the past so i am told,,,,
i do not know that most people do not believe in god any more. Maybe they call god a higher power.
Personally i believe in the bible, i feel it was inspired by god........ and it warns against seeking magic practicers etc,so i personally have avoided it, and am not taken in by anything with psychic powers etc, though do not deny their existence,
Humility is the most inspiring quality in anyone, i try to copy Jesus' humility in my life, and admire others who do., Don't get it right of course, but strive for it.
Rishy Rich... I guess Human Cloning will be a significant threat for the existence of souls in the upcoming cults
It certainly creates a question bud !
As we know that we can create clones of ourselves that would mean that we would also have created a soul - bit of a dilemma there for our religious friends I think.
Just a thought ???
I can "build" a car by using the parts that the manufacturer has already created.
It is my understanding that cloning requires an egg and sperm that has been selectively chosen and manipulated ?????
When science can produce a sperm and an egg I will certainly be impressed.
As far as a soul is conserned I would think that a Cloned person would have the same kind of soul as anyone else.
I think there is a verse in scripture someplace; about the "power" (could this have been translated "soul" ?) is in the sperm.
That's what ... "I be thinking".. any way.
the sperm is exactly what is missing - a single cell is inserted into an egg and it behaves exactly as the egg would and grows the body - to the best of my sketchy knowledge this is about right- but definately no sperm involved. This is how it makes an exact copy of the cell donor, you !
and I forgot. the cells in the clone are all grown from you - so it is essentially another you in every way.
so this is the question, do you have half a soul each ?
That sounds about right. Pardon my ignorance.
Now I really need to go do something productive, fix one of the many things that are broken around the house.
A very interesting topic, Rishy Rich. I've replied already at the hub where this topic/article is already published.
I hope I wasn't too sarcastic - I meant to make light of things a bit in my response to the notion of our each cloning our own deity.
The reason I did try to make light of things and, perhaps, gave a less serious response on the hub is because I envision that many people wouldn't take the responsibility of cloning all that serious if it were to become possible for the purposes mentioned in this topic. Some but not all, would likely end up with a clone-friend just because it's possible. Therefore, a lot of clones would be out and about without having, first, been thought carefully about as to their whole purpose of being, etc...
I'm sorry if I've offended...but visions of strange movies I've seen on cloning came to mind when I read this topic, some of which aren't serious movies...so perhaps I haven't been serious-minded enough. I'll wait to see more commenting, but I wanted to say I appreciate the creativity of the ideas presented for a topic discussion.
Science fiction has spent decades toying with this notion, and it's definately interesting to think about. One story that I read back in the eighties suggested that God is the one who makes cloning work. Other stories depict them as souless, and then there are stories that have them earning souls, sort of like the Tin Man gets a heart from the Wizard of Oz only to discover he already had one (that story is really about "robots" or "clones" getting parts of "souls" and learning that they actually have them, or at least an argumente can be made that they do). Part of the tension in the Battle Star Galactica series is the existence of a soul or not in the Cylons (not clones, but robots serve similar function for this debate in sci-fi - think Data in the Star Trek the Next Generation series too, etc.). It's a great and compelling and confounding thing to think about. Another unprovable idea wrapped around God, the original unprovable idea. You either have to pick a side and just put your foot down and say, "This side is right" (feel free to use a dart if you'd like), or keep your mind open and accept that we just haven't figured it all out yet.
Very well put.
It definitely poses an interesting question. And what makes it even better is that it's the type of question that raises more queries (personally, my favorite kind). If we create new life, does the soul automatically insert itself? If so, would a person who is genetically identical to another living being possess the same soul or a different soul? How would this affect them? Would they truly be the same person? Or would there be a subtle difference, one we can't see. Hmmm. Like I said, an interesting question.
Exactly! but the first thing that came to my mind is whether there are really anything like souls or are we just one type of machine built by nature...
If being obbjective...
We have to know what a soul is?
Do we know that every physical body has a soul?
Do all souls have a common sourse?
There are references to The sons of God and the sons of Satan.
Could these souls actually have two different sourses?
Are God and Satan willing to adopt the children of the other?
I don't buy into this as a belief, Just a question that comes to mind.
Maybe "soul" is just the word we invented to describe the homeostatic nature of intelligence that is self-aware and creative, mobile, communicative, and perhaps impacted biological or even mechanical imperatives. That was sort of the lesson of The Wizard of Oz, wasn't it?
hmm...u just gave me the topic of my next hub Our science is on the verge of creating AI's which will be self-aware, creative, mobile & communicative. Will they have souls too?
I guess theres not a single person who can provide answer in this paradigm. I mean, if u blv in an eternal soul then just think what happens to it when u clone someone?
Cloning is not something new but of old. Dna and genetics have been messed with from since the begining.
Your assumption that Jesus would come again in flesh and bones is a flawed one, for the "cloning" is already occurring but not as you would like to believe.
Your scientist may explain the "cloning" of the body, but who is going to explain to you the "cloning" of the Soul?
All flesh and bones body dies, including clones.
nobody is assuming anything as far as I can see.
Cloning has not been achieved before
Cross breeding etc is a different issue that is just assisting a natural process go the way the breeder wants.
It is a simple question - if we clone you personally, does your exact copy have a soul ?
Have you read any of the old "tachyon ray" sci-fi of the 80's and 90's? Four Lords of the Diamond or The Saga of Cuckooo as random examples of many, many?
I haven't read any of those although I was an avid sci-fi reader for a long time until I seemed to get bored with it for some reason. There were quite a few that I read maybe in the sixties that were also about this same issue. The point is that the argument is like spending your life working out the wingspan of an angel - it exposes the fault in the original idea. There is no argument because either there is no soul - or it is just a concept, a symbol, and has no reality that can be there or not or split etc.
There is soul to begin with kess ? Without proof this looks more like some biblical story.
After all is said and done, you would see that those who ask question truly are not looking for answers.
If they were truly try to find answers, then there are certain prerequisites they would have covered.
For example is there a soul?
What does it comprise of and what are it's functions.
So when the first question is answered in the negative which is the ignorant position, there is actually on reason to go any further to even begin asking questions directly pertaining to the existence of soul.
If men truly want truthful answers, there are more than enough evidence familiar to all in this world that can guide.
But who wants to know....?
It looks like our soul expert friends are either not getting the idea or intentionally avoiding this post. One of them just mentioned that we should have covered the per-requisites first i.e. Is there any soul or what are the functions of souls?
Although all religious friends would agree on an eternal soul concept. however, its functions would vary from religion to religion.
For the sake of simplicity, Im presenting the following paradigm to them:
Q1. When we clone someone, are we creating new souls?
If ur answer is YES, then I would say we have reached the level of GOD because we are capable of creating divine everlasting souls.
If ur answer is NO, then we have to assume its the existing souls that gets multiplied in a divine way each time we clone a person. In such scenario I would present the case of Jesus Christ's Cloning. Which indicates the cloning of Christ would create multiple divine beings (since his divine soul is getting split or multiplied). Such cloning would create multiple Sons of God or to be precise multiple clone Gods.
Thus the Concept of cloning is projecting intense doubt in the divine nature of Jesus christ, Budhdha & even in the existence of an eternal soul.
There...the Paradigm (Q1)is presented in its simplest form, now can we get some answers please...
Oh - a multi functional god - like one of those swiss army knives but really for EVERYTHING ! cool !
Q1. When we clone someone, are we creating new souls?
I've only had one cup of coffee this AM and am thinking out loud when I attempt to answer. So who knows
I would think that if the answer was YES; We would have to re examine the way that we precieve the soul.
My soul would then have to be no more than an extenction of my parents soul and on and on up the family tree.
That would then imply that the base of the family tree would be gaining in size and strength as the "Soul" continues to expand.
"Go forth and subdue" the face of the earth
Who is to say that I was born with a "New" soul but only a piece or extenction of an eternal soul. Is it possible that the soul is an entity that is in a continual state of growth and becoming.
This soul that I "Think" is me. is but the tip of an iceburg.
This physical body means nothing to my soul except for being a tool with which my soul accomplishes those things that needs accomplishing.
My conciousness is but a fragment of that which came before me.
And when this body dies the "soul" continues on its journey, or returns home when it has achieved its purpose or captured the prize it was sent out for.
If science wants to produce another tool or vehichle for a soul to inhabit? Why not?
Just thinking out loud. This concept makes sence to me as I was just now constructing (thinking it). I'm Goina give this some more thought.
Thanks for making me think about it.
A soul is only a concept to answer questions about why a person is alive one second and dead the next when the only difference is movement. Your idea sounds like a mobile colonizing brain tumour !
Maybe? all life forms have that trait in common.
From our perseption we can never see all that there is to see; even those things that are within ourselves.
I think that everything is more than our perception is capable of being aware of.
After reading ur reply, I think u can agree that u have messed up the concept of Soul..ryt?
I may have misunderstood the question?
I thought that was the intention
Does the act of cloning redefine the concept of both physical body and soul?
Not exactly, I think it creates significant doubt abt souls existence as well as it points finger to concepts like enlightenment, Holy spirit & human- god concepts...
The definition of soul is nothing but few assumptions. However, these assumptions are held for long time by mankind. It would be wise to stick with these assumptions for the time being. If u continue to redefine it again nd again with the hope of fitting it in my God-Clone Paradigm, then u will be making fun of urself nd fun of souls as well
Why is it that the questioners are always knowledgeable about the subject area they question the most...
mostly because the people who claim to know have never thought it through - they can recite random verse but have no idea of meaning and so cannot answer the questions.
The way of the naught (0) is this to begin at a point then get busy busy busy but end at the same point.
When you turn around ... There it goes again...
If it's ever changes it will become something other than a Naught.
But the naught cannot change, so don't be like him
It would appear that you believe that the concept of there being a soul is already messed up. I will not mess it up any more than it already is.
I wonder how many concepts of soul there are?
Either there is no such thing as a soul;
OR ..one of these concepts is correct,
OR ..we need to discover a new concept that is correct?
OR .. there is no need for it to be discovered.
Whenever science comes to a place that all of the pieces of a puzzle does not fit within the accepted boundaries , does it not keep juggeling the concepts and extending those boundaries until all of the pieces fit within those boundaries.
Should we not develope our belief systems along those same rules of engagement?
Sure...ur always welcomed to develop new religions & soul theories. im absolutely ok with dat but I dont think religious groups would be very happy to see such things...
I can guarantee that they wouldn't cause they already don't and never did.
Some of us/they do not want to examine closely the ones that us/they are swearing by.
hmm...I dont think we r talking about the same religious group The things u said applies to the philosophers, not to religious people. Religion is about seeking permanence to its existing doctrines. Its not science that u can always come up with a new theory & modify the previous one. If u do dat, u will end up in a new religion.Besides, I think u r not aware of the words like FANATIC, EXTREMIST & TERRORISTS. They r highly religious too ...and i dont think they r looking for new doctrines Jeremi.
Sure, u can always give it a try... but I think in the end u will make fun of urself in front of science & u will loose religious support too
Rishy Rich said Sure, u can always give it a try... but I think in the end u will make fun of urself in front of science & u will loose religious support too
I can testify; You got dat rit.
Been there done that. And look at me now.
But I'm goina keep tellin them to read the book not the interprretations.
I think that it is about time to get off of what ever mission that I thought that I might have been on.
I may have thought that I was on one? caus I forgot what King Solomon said.... "All is vanity" eat drink and be merry.
I still gott be me.
I still think that all of the misunderstandings concerning the bibble can be discovered, when the parralell can be measured between the prophetic time lines and the earthly timelines and are understood.
Religion teaches that this is a mystery that we were to never understand. I say that if that were the case? these comparisons would not have been written in scripture in the first place.
In 538 BC Gabriel said that in 62 weeks that they were going to kill the messiah. Don't interpret anything. What does this mean? Even if the church is correct (not) that the commandment did not go forth until 80 years later when they "Resumed" the construction of Jerusalem. A week would = something between
(Their verson)a week = 7 years and (my verson)9.1 to 9.3 years
I feel that this truly is an issue worth exploring.
Jerami said, "In 538 BC Gabriel...9.3 Years...I feel that this truly is an issue worth exploring."
Most of the major religions possess similar issues worth exploring. Even if u successfully explore this one, u will be just successful enough to solve one puzzle among many. You will still be left with thousands of puzzles from completely different dogmas which perceive the world & creation from an absolutely different perspective. Thus solving puzzles from biased historical sources whose authenticity is fairly objectionable & irrational, is not going to lead u to any successful conclusion...
I was not searching for any answers about creation.
I was simply wanting to understand the prophesy.
In my opinion about 80 % of the bible is talking about both short term and long term prophesy and how they had come to fulfillment.
The books of Daniel and Revelation are not but about half of the prophesy written in scripture.
When this timeline comparison (Prophetic vs earthly) is applied to prophesy "every" time that a span of time is mentioned in prophesy,(Not sometimes but everytime) we will see that these prophesy are happening in a lateral construct. Prophesy is imposible to understand when we treat them as if they have to be contained within a perimeter such as a Jig Saw puzzle. The pieces do not fit when we attempt to fit them within a 12x 12 square. This puzzle fits together nicely when connected and seen as a ROPE having diffrent strands of twine tightly wraped together. This "Rope" reaches from 606 BC until soon in our future.
After we have put together all of the pieces of this puzzle we will find that we are about to the end of our ROPE.
In every single civilization, in every single age, in every single race, humanity has faced war, injustice, oppression, famine, torture & every single deed that is considered Sin ... And in every single of those moments, mankind thought the end is near...
In every ancient religions, religions that dont exist anymore, thought the end is near! The Greeks thought the end is near when Romans began their triumph, the Romans thought the end has come when Hannibal slaughtered roman legionaries, Persians thought its all over when Alexander conquered the known world, The Chinese thought the end time has come when Genghis Kahn beheaded thousands.
This so-called prophecy of the end was there thousands of year before the advent of jesus/moses/muhammad/bible/quran...It was there in the time of sumer, It was there in the time of Olmec & it was even there in the time of Pharaohs...BUT WE ARE STILL HERE, AREN'T WE?...
& trust me we are going to be here for many more years. If anything is going to end; its going to be the irrational believe that you are possessing.
Oh and don't forget Bible has more unfulfilled prophecies than fulfilled ones...
That depends upon if you believe in interpretations.
I do not think that the world will end as many people interpret "THE END" to be. I am not sure in what manner the two remaining Judgments (7th trumpet and 7th bowl) are going to unfold.
I'm just saying that (in my opinion)99% of prophesy has been fulfilled.
All through out scripture, time lines have been stated for a reason. Because theologians have chosen to calculate a diffrent equation when working out the Math and finding no answers does not indicate that there is not an intended purpose for them. These timeline comparisons were included in scripture for a reason.What could they have been given for if not to eventually be figured out?
1.Jerami said..."I'm just saying that (in my opinion)99% of prophesy has been fulfilled."
- u should recheck ur opinion
2. Jerami said "...These timeline comparisons were included in scripture for a reason.What could they have been given for if not to eventually be figured out?"
- As I told u b4, there are other scriptures too & they have their time line too. If ur logic is right then most of them were given for a reason & then the world should have already been ended 100 times & will end another 1000 times in the future!
How long have people been roaming the earth? And when did the hebrew god appear on the scene? And do you think any of the BIG 3 will still be around in a thousand years?
A drop in the bucket, baby, just a drop in the bucket.
Rishy Rich said
As I told u b4, there are other scriptures too & they have their time line too. If ur logic is right then most of them were given for a reason & then the world should have already been ended 100 times & will end another 1000 times in the future!
Which other verses are you thinking of?
There may be a perfectly logical explination as to why you believe that there is a contradiction where I do not.
Interesting thread by the way. My answer predictably enough is no, we will not create new souls or split old souls, if you consider the soul as defined here a divinely given and eternal thing.
If you define soul as the thoughts and experiences of a person then yes, we will be creating new souls, because you may clone a physical body, but I do not believe you can replicate their brains files, if ya know what I mean.
The clone will no doubt share some personality tendencies with its ...contributor, the natural, but not the developed personality that comes through experience, the nurtured.
That is the smartest thing that I have heard for a long time.
Unless somebody interprets what they think that you were realy thinking when you said that.
And then "IF" I If believe it?
In which case I might disagree with ya
Ya know what I mean??
Nature vs nurture is not applicable to soul since we don't define soul as our mental ability, experience or brain files.If we do that then we will be defining soul in a materialistic sense & soul would loose its divine features.
On the contrary, If we consider soul to be divine & eternal then the developed personality has nothing to do with it. For example, take the case of Jesus Christ, from a Religious perspective he was a born God (Son of God to be precise) & not a wise man who developed spiritual or religious leadership skills over time. From a believers point of view, His lifetime experience didn't play a major role because he was Destined to be the messiah, savior or God. Thus this divine spirit or soul was within him from the very beginning of his life & had nothing to do with Nurture. Moreover, cloning of Jesus creates a Paradox of Divine Clones which will provide unacceptable outcomes from all ends & creates significant amount of doubt in the existence of souls as we know it today.
For More Details, u can visit my hub: Buy One God & Get One Free
Thanks for ur opinion by the way
Buy One God & Get One Free!
Our friend Rishy Rich has not even one with him; and there are no two; there cannot be ever two.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
OK, let's take a look at your errors:
First a Kabbalist does not believe what you assume they do.
We are nothing like Christians in belief or practice. Thank you very much.
Second, there are only three types of cloning
1. Therapeutic. This is cloning cells in adults for research and medicine. Like reproducing organs for people whose organs are failing
2. Reproductive. This is cloning humans, which by the way, not only has it never been done but it is illegal in a lot of places
3. Replacement cloning, which is only a theory and has only been studied and not done. This is where they take someone's brain and put it in another body or grow another one, like when someone has cancer or they are crippled.
And the soul is connected to the mind.
1. DS said "First a Kabbalist does not believe what you assume they do.We are nothing like Christians in belief or practice."
It doesnt make u any different than christians anyway. Above & below, Tops & bottoms, spirit, soul & its relationship with God... it doesnt make u better, it doesnt make u different...If u believe in spirit or soul its gud enough to fall for my Paradox.
2. DS said, "Second, there are only three types...1,2,3,...connected to the mind."
Are you out of ur freaking mind! U should not talk on subjects that u dont understand... Since Dolly, researchers have cloned a number of large and small animals including sheep, goats, cows, mice, pigs, cats and rabbits. Some institutes even claimed to have cloned human babies too. But they didnt revealed the details to public, bcoz I think most publics r like u & they r not ready to handle the truth. Even if we assume that no one has ever cloned a human, dat doesnt negates nor reduces the possibility of human cloning. In fact, most scientists are highly confident about human cloning & exerted no doubt on it so far.
& WHAT ERRORS u were talking about?
Hey, I dont like the male jesus...so can u make a female version for me
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