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How do you know God exists ....?

  1. Thom Carnes profile image59
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    A few weeks ago I asked what I thought was quite a serious, searching question about the existence of God, and was rather disappointed when it got a very limited response. (This could have been because we were all wrestling this other equally important issues at the time.)

    Peter Lopez made a valiant attempt at a reply but (as I'm sure Peter will be the first to admit) didn't really resove the matter.

    The question is this:

    If God is outside of space and time (because He created space and time); if He is outside of nature and natural law (because He created nature and natural law); if He is invisible and intangible and cannot, it would appear, be experienced in any sensory way whatsoever - then how exactly does His existence manifest itself?

    In other words, how is His being here any different to His not being here?

    If He didn't exist, or if He ceased to exist, how would you know? How would you recognise the difference between His existence and His non-existence?

    As I say, I think this is quite an important question, as it raises all sorts of issues about the way we "know" that something (anything!) exists. It is particularly important, I think, when it comes to the existence of non-physical, non-material entities.

    I would be most interested to hear your replies ....

    1. SparklingJewel profile image65
      SparklingJewelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I say that God is time and space because God created them; and God is nature and natural law because God created them; but  God is not invisible and can be experienced in many sensory ways, manifesting "as" "within" everything. There is nothing that is not God, because God is the energy that all is of, including evil. Evil is God misused, subverted, perverted, ignorantly or purposefully. It is by humankinds free will, power of consciousness, that evil is mis-created

      I experience God daily because there are different levels of consciousness that can be heightened to do so, and everyone has those capabilites, they just may be dormant within until awakened through desire to know God...the soul wakes up/uncovers herself to know God.

      I am going type an excerpt that says a lot. But it will take some time ( I wish I had a scanner!)

    2. Kelley Eidem profile image80
      Kelley Eidemposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      The question as asked about God's existence falls into the category of the mental realm: "If this...then that, or not that."

      The mental realm is run by what I would call "the mind machine." Which brings up the question, "Who made the mind machine?" Was it made from nothing? If so, then who took the nothing and made the something?

      PS. The mind machine has the unending ability to ask "If this...then that, or not that" questions. That ability helps to keep us from getting run over by a bus, along with many other advantages.

      It is not necessarily so good at discerning the Creator. That shortcoming can result in posing questions that the mind machine can't answer. By way of analogy, computers can store and spit out a recipe for the finest tasting tira misu known to mankind. But it cannot taste the tira misu.

      Likewise, it is impossible to taste the Creator with the mind machine.

      The Creator is within, and it has to be experienced. The experience cannot be transferred from one person to another. The best that can be done in that regard is to say, "I've experienced it, and you can too, but you must do it yourself."

      The tools for experiencing the Creator are love, joy, forgiveness and gratitude. Please, note that none of those tools come from the mind machine.

      Most often, we experience the Creator all the time but discount the experience, just like we don't notice the trees as we drive by them, but they are there still. I have driven by many trees. And I've experienced God in a tree I'd driven by many times before. (No, God is not a tree. God is the experience within us that lets us experience the Creator in all things.)

      The best to you.

      Kelley Eidem

    3. Silent Assassin profile image60
      Silent Assassinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I believe that I read somewhere that God is the alpha and the omega ( the beginning and the end) so I would be assuming here; but it seems likely that god is supposed to be omnipresent. (anywhere and everywhere) As cheap as it sounds everything that you sense is god. It's trying to figure out the plan behind bad things that has me and a lot of other people stumped

    4. RFox profile image81
      RFoxposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      If God is outside the realm of existence then He cannot manifest Himself here on Earth.

      I have a very different way of looking at the whole thing. Of course I believe that the Buddha was the one who transcended the cycle of existence and achieved Nirvana (which is not existence nor non-existence.) However, once the Buddha did that he could no longer have any influence over our realm of existence.
      This basic principle is why the Dalai Lama had to take a solemn vow to not achieve enlightenment until all sentient beings achieved enlightenment. In order to be in this world and have influence over existence you must still be in the realm of existence.

      To put it in other words: In science there is the theory of multiple dimensions. Say 'existence' is one dimension and 'outside of existence' is another dimension. It is theoretically possible to move between dimensions but not to be in both dimensions at the same time. If you exist you are in 'existence', if you are enlightened you are 'outside of existence'.

      So if God is 'outside of existence' He cannot have influence over our world.

      Of course I don't believe Gods or heavenly beings are 'outside of existence'. I believe Heaven is just another transitory state of existence that we all move through during the cycle of birth and death. As such Divine Beings can exert some influence over our world. However, they did not create it nor do they choose where my life may take me. That is purely determined by my actions. I believe they do intervene on some occasions because they choose to and that's where 'miracles' come from.

      But I would like to put a little perspective on my belief.

      Say I was walking through the woods one day and saw a creek overflowing. A small stream branched off and was heading straight for an ant hill. I saw the ants and felt overwhelming compassion for them and didn't want to see them harmed so I dug a trench around one side of their hill to divert the water. In doing so I saved all the ants lives.

      I was able to do that because on my level of existence I have the power to save ants and avert disaster in their 'world'. To them I may have been a miracle or a God...but am I? No.
      I did not create the ants or their 'world'. I simply have the power to influence it in some pretty dramatic ways.

      This is exactly how I see Divine Beings. From their perspective, from their level of existence they have the ability to affect our 'world' but they did not create us. In fact they were us, as we all move through these levels of existence at one point or another. As such they are still bound by the physics of the universe.

      Once you make the decision to leave the cycle of existence and achieve enlightenment you can no longer exert influence over this world.

      Therefore God as an omnipotent being who created the universe but is outside of the universe cannot possibly exist or non-exist. wink

      That is my belief. Sorry for the long post! big_smile

    5. stevemark122000 profile image83
      stevemark122000posted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Man has a spirit which also is also intangible, this is where we commune with God. This is how we experience God and know He is real.

    6. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      In India we call this Shiva and Shakti.
      Shiva outside of space and time the source the light.
      Shakti-this manifestation this world you,me,everything.

      You have created this universe with your thoughts,you are God the creator playing a game with yourself what is called the cosmic joke.
      Represented by the Laughing Buddha.

      God is love tissue supremely intelligent and permeates all.Your very essence.

      The Shivaling represents this.The column or pillar being Shiva and the circle outside being Shakti.
      When all humans get Enlightened then this existence would seaze but God never can as he is beyond time, timeless.Time exists in this dimension and not in the dimension of God.

      I like what Guru Nanak says everyone is a master or to be master Enlightenment is inevitable for all.A ll rivers lead to the ocean each finding his own way.

      God is nature.

      it is impossible to rationalise god as we are talking about a different dimension .This dimension is One .We are in a dimension of duality-eg,love-hate,male-female.
      In meditation one dies and becomes one with god or the light and even after that the human does not have all knowledge. Knowledge gets revealed to you by the universe as and when it deams fit.
      We call this Samadhi and Mahasamadhi.
      Samadhi- Enlightenment when you come back.
      Mahasamadhi-when you merge forever with the light-do not come back.
      Warm regards
      Poet Mohit.K..Misra

      1. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this
    7. mightyone profile image60
      mightyoneposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      There is no real way to know He exist except through faith.  If you're smart enough to think wow; how did everything get here.  Then find books on every person or being that claimed to be God or eternal and read all of the writings.

      Read up on the ones that claimed to have founded the world; how they did it and see if that can really happen.  Run them down and make them prove it in their writings.  Who ever proves it best; find out what He wants and do it.  Other than that; there is no real way to know God exist.

      Truth be told; we're all gods; but we are dying like men - and have fallen like one of the princes.

      1. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        There is way and its called revelation or enlightenment.Truth be told; we're all gods is also correct.

    8. the2ndflood profile image77
      the2ndfloodposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      People get confused. God and Religion are 2 totally different things. The Earth has been here for billions of years. This Universe is even more billions of years old. And if String theory is correct, there is even more older Universes out there beyond our own. Religion on the other hand is a few thousand years old. It is mankind's way of justifying everything. So is there a God? Most likely. How else did we get here? Can God be classified into "A" God? No, because we just have no idea. Our minds don't have that type of understanding. Does Religion explain God? No. How I explain Religion, it is like trying to explain the plot of a 11 billion page book with just 3 words. That is how you know it has nothing to do with God and everything to do with man. But Religion can do some very good things for people when they truly follow the love parts of it. So even though I know Religion is a lie, that doesn't mean it hasn't helped a lot of people live better lives.

      So yes, I think there is a God. But no, I don't think Religion has anything to do with God.

      1. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Every religion will tell you to take out the time everyday and meditate.Focus on getting enlightened-becoming one with god and not on the behavioral pattern that will change automaticallly after enlightenment.Religion has everything to do with God.They are the teachings of the Prophets-the enlightened ones-the God-man.Like I said before dont blame the religion,its man who is to blame.smile

        1. mightyone profile image60
          mightyoneposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          It is man to blame; God works through man.  A man has to bring God's message.  So if the man is a liar - you won't get God's message.

          1. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            So if the man is a liar -they(man) spoil the name of religion ,everyone is not a liar.You have good men and bad men.The good man will not lie.

            1. mohitmisra profile image61
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              All religions reiterate the fact that God exists and one can become one with God,the purpose of life which is a state of bliss nothing else on earth compares with or comes close to.The teachings of religions ara good. eg.Zaratushtra -Parsis-Good thoughts,good words and good deeds.Now someone wants to warp its meaning he is to blame and not the religion.

              1. SparklingJewel profile image65
                SparklingJewelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                But its not like people lie about God's Word on purpose...most anyway. Hearing the Word of God correctly, not being deceived by one's own consciousness...there is almost always the human component getting in the way of relaying God's Word that they heard from "within". There are many tricks of the ego, the human psychology, that can "distort" the message from God as it comes through a human.

                1. mohitmisra profile image61
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Well said, it is the question of recieving and interpreting the message the signs.

      2. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        All religions are about knowing god.Spirituality ,religion and god all the same thing. smile

    9. tkindred profile image59
      tkindredposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      First. The statement "if He is invisible and intangible and cannot, it would appear, be experienced in any sensory way whatsoever - then how exactly does His existence manifest itself?"  assumes that we humans can not experience God in a sensory way.  How do you know this?  Perhaps there are those who can perceive God in this way.  Or perhaps we have not developed our senses to the point of truly perceiving Gods existence. It could even be possible to "visually" see God as a single entity or in everything he embodies if we developed this awareness.

      Who claims that God is invisible and intangible? Perhaps to that person he is intangible but for some he may be or it is possible but we have not acquired this ability because we have not focused on developing it. 

      Also I think the difficulty with this question is assuming that there is some importance to the human perception.  Just because something is invisible, operates outside of "natural law", and is not recognizable to any of "our" sensory perceptions does not mean it does or does not exist. It just means we can not perceive it on this level.  Electricity and current was all that you described above and we would not have perceived it was there or not there because he merely have not discovered it yet. 

      It also states in the original question that "If God is outside of space and time (because He created space and time); "  Hmm, I can make a house and put myself in it.  And if God can do just about anything can't he create space and time and place himself within its fabric?

      Actually, one could argue that God is ALSO  inside of space and time because he created it and it is part of his essence. Or he can just simply be there too. Can he not be everywhere at anytime? So part of his energy is in and part of it is out.  Why not?  He is God.

      Hmm, still thinking.  In the question it says     

      "If God is outside of space and time (because He created space and time); if He is outside of nature and natural law (because He created nature and natural law); "

      What exactly is "space and time", "natural law" anyway?  They could be concepts concocted by man to explain what is going on around him and have absolutely no relevance to God anyway. So to take this idea further, perhaps God did  not create space and time, etc, because they do not exists and they are just fabrications created by the human imagination.

      1. 0
        Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        People who claim that their God is something that is not accessible to the five senses and yet claims that they can "feel him in their heart" are lying.  They very much perceive god with their senses, just not external ones.  If I feel "God" in my "heart" that means that the limbic region of my brain is engaged in the sensory perception of "God".  People who claim that they can "hear God" I would say likewise to.

        What I do not get is why this "God" needs prophets and revelations just like the man made "Gods" of 3,000 years ago, instead we are all supposed to be "feeling him in our hearts"

        I can falsify God easily.

        If everyone everywhere all of a sudden had psychic access to a "God" that could communicate with us "psychically" and drop us into instantaneously created worlds like a computer server drops the packets that make up the "Player" into a game server, then I think it would be fair to say I could believe in said "God" even though technically this would not be insurmountable proof of his attributes as attributed to him, by say, X-tianity.  If this "God" then proceeded to heal amputees I would seal the deal by furthering my conviction and believing in him 100%.

        Sadly, I doubt there is a "God" who is even capable of doing any of the above.

        I have said this before, the human race did not get the sign of jonah necessarily.  What we have been "given" (if you want to call it that) is oral and written testimony of the sign of jonah.

        Christ allegedly came and said that no sign would be given other than the sign of Jonah, and all we have 2,000 years later is a book and a bunch of politically power hungry people (at least in the USA) who tell us of this "Sign of Jonah".  The real sign, we never got on any timetable that would make it believable in the here and now.

        Supposedly God can die on a cross and get his butt kicked by the Romans, yet he cannot even so much as just give the sign of Jonah to those that request it legitimately.  Just the sign of Jonah itself would be possibly enough to turn me from being a doubting thomas, but I shall not even get that.

        Some God indeed.

        1. tkindred profile image59
          tkindredposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I must ask you how you can claim you know what other feels and where these sensations originate without being those people?  Do you truly believe there are only 5 senses? Isn't there a possibility there are more?

          You reference history written by people.  Is it possible that God has nothing to do with the Bible and its writings? Just as Christians reference the Bible to support the existence of God you reference to refute it. But isn't it obviously written by men?  I think we can both agree on that.  So therefore God may not have any relation to the writings in the Bible. If this is the case we can not refute God's existence by  finding faults within literature (Bible)  written by men.

          You also mention God healing the injured.  Who says that is a concern of God?  I guess we need to clarify which form of "God" we are referring to. There are many versions :-).  The Christian God seems to be the one you are referring to. Even again, perhaps even this form of God does not want a perfect world for reasons beyond our understanding.

          Finally, to claim that God does not exist because you have no "human" type reference (senses, etc.)  that he does may not qualify as proof.

    10. pink lingerie profile image60
      pink lingerieposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      How do you know God Exists? Read the bible and you'll know.. or ask those who have near death experience, I'm sure they know the answer.

      1. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Each needs to find his or her own proof.
        I never believed Krishna or Zaratushtra or Jesus till I came across God for myself. smile

        1. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA profile image60
          VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Dear Mohitmisra, You came across God yourself...?  Please explain it so that I can clear my remaining doubts and follow your way, if it suits me.

          1. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I was practising one pointed concentration while sailing in the merchant navy.Was trying to improve my concentration powers when I entered into a state of samadhi or got enlightened in the middle of the Atlantic ocean.
            One merges with the light or god which is a state of absolute bliss.Now I am a poet/philosopher with abook called "Ponder Awhile" in which I share my story.Have al ook
            http://www.amazon.com/Ponder-Awhile-Moh … 1419646729
            smile

            1. mohitmisra profile image61
              mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Dear VENUGOPAL SIVAGNA- according to Patanjali -the founder or father of Yoga meaning union with God-seven breaths of one pointed concentration will get you enlightened. smile

      2. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Interesting. It was reading the bible that made me understand that god is a man-made idea. big_smile

        1. AEvans profile image72
          AEvansposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          oh Mark  you know that many of us believe that to us God Exists , why do you try to discredit those who are young in the word of God and choose to believe? Be nice as they are only trying to make their point known.smile

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Discredit?

            If you want to believe whatever it is you believe, that is entirely your choice.

            Not sure what you mean by "young in the word of god" though. Perhaps you could explain?

            And how was I not nice exactly?

    11. usmanali81 profile image59
      usmanali81posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Only the Creator who created you can give the valid explaination just as the creator of a calculator gave an instruction manual with it. Similarly, the Creator:ONE God-ALLAH has given you the instruction manual in the form of Qur'an so that you may run the creations effectively and positively. In addition to that Allah also gives you the answer of your question in this last and final instruction manual; Qur'an.

      The following 4 verses deals with the basic definition of God

      Qur'an, Ch 112-The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah, V 1-4

      1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
      2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
      3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
      4. And there is none like unto Him.

      Now this following verse deals with some of the basic attributes of God

      Qur'an,Ch 2-The Cow, V 255

      255. "Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living,
      the Self-subsisting,
      Eternal.
      No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.
      His are all things in the heavens and on earth.
      Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth?
      He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them.
      Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth.
      His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth,
      and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory)."

      Therefore, according to the definition and explaination by God himself, He does not ceases to exit. It's only we who can not see Him but we can judge him via different kinds of signs.

      1. earnestshub profile image86
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Or we can recognise that god is a man made entity.

  2. Inspirepub profile image87
    Inspirepubposted 8 years ago

    I believe that "I" am "God", and my material self is an illusion, and if "God" ceased to exist, "I" would cease to exist. And all material reality would cease to exist, of course, since there would be no consciousness to imagine it.

    It would be a noticeable occurrence, except, of course, that there would be no consciousness to notice it.

    1. Thom Carnes profile image59
      Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      It might take me a few minutes (or hours!) to get my head around that one, Jenny.

      But doesn't it beg the question? Whoever or whatever you believe God is, how does His (Her? Its? Your?) existence manifest itself?

      1. Inspirepub profile image87
        Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I use the word "God" (when I am forced to by others who use it) to refer to that huge, powerful, peaceful, joyous Something which lies within me, changeless beneath the mundane thoughts and emotional clouds which pass by on the surface, and seem so absorbing when I forget who I really am.

        "God" never stops manifesting - but sometimes I forget to notice, which is when I start to feel small and separate and powerless.

      2. 61
        simple linkposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        HI  ... well that is an interesting question ...but first of all i`d like to clear somethings just so we can understand each other ... when u said that god created the time and law of nature ..

        there is not doubt that time dont affect god .. he doesnt get older or dies  like all other things he created ... but  nature doesnt have laws ... wat do you mean by nature  the sky the earth the sea the moon the sun ... all these he created them ... there is no drop of rain comes to earth without his will  ...  he almighty controls everything   and  he control it with his knoweldge there is angels who do jobs .. angel of rain .. angel of wind .. ect

        but he can do anything with no ones help ...


        well the question now how to find out god ... if he is above all . 

        what i believe is that god first of all gave us a brain  to find him ... or to feel him ...
        when you look to the sea all the fishes living different color . different shapes  you know god is not palying with our creation everything in the world planet is desinged perfectly ... even timing
        sun  moon  so we have 24 hours  and a year  ... rain comes  plants grow ... a lot of things to feel the wisdome of god  ... the power of god .. the knowledge of god .. the mercy of god .. also the punishment of god ..even in  individuals .. what ever you do you will get pay for it ...
        there is nothing god forgets  ... what ever nations do ... the animals ... how their wild life is organized .... god is everywhere   even in our bodies ... if he didnt give you nails  you wont be able to scratch itchy places in your body .... god is everywhere    just  we need to open our hearts  not eyes   .... hearts get  blind  not eyes .

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          All clear now. Thanks for that. big_smile

          1. Kitchy Wytch profile image60
            Kitchy Wytchposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            LOL.  Clear as rose colored crystal. tongue

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              More like mud big_smile

  3. SparklingJewel profile image65
    SparklingJewelposted 8 years ago

    "In a universe of absolute goodwill and perfection, it must be recognized that the freedom to choose, known as free will, has permitted mankind to depart from the perfection of God and to act as a creator in his own domain. Hence, there have sprung into manifestation, along with the good will men are wont to do, myriad forms and concepts which utilize divine evergy to spawn a shadowed veil of substance and thought which is distinctly antichrist in nature.

    As the warning sounded forth of old to beware of the antichrist, so mankind in this hour of trial must understand that the earth has a very old residue comprising the energy records of past history. These have been sustained largely through custom, and they exist as a temporary force of evil until challenged by the power of Light-for evilhas no permeanent reality except in the continuous misqualification by mankind of the pure energies of God released to all daily.

    The reactivation and revitalizing of ancient foci of evil is accomplished, then, by contemporary man in most cases inadvertently, but in accord with the scheme perpetrated by the hordes of shadow, who have to the present hour refused to bend the knee and acknowledge the power of Light in their own beings or to confess the divinity of the Christ radiance as the divine mediator between God and man."

    1. Paraglider profile image90
      Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      jings wink

      But to be serious for a sec, did anyone postulate an antichrist before christ? An ante-christ, if we can pun about it?

      What's an 'energy record'?
      What history is not 'past history'?

      Let's at least try to make sense.

      And god said unto Moses - Come forth! - but he came fifth and was disqualified.

      1. 0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        LOL, too funny.  You crack me up!!!!

        Humor for a second, to think of anti-christ, being in a sense the anti-body, that cures the virus of what Christains have done.  It would make the anti-christ the cure.  LOL.

      2. SparklingJewel profile image65
        SparklingJewelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        energy record:  study akasha (wikipedia has a start) in a few years if you still need to ask, do so
        past history: assuming there is no time and space, yet what we conceive of, and that there are multiple dimensions, history can be the future we in time and space have not experienced yet, but it is always there

        because people perpetuate the same mistakes, the same records are layered from repetition, covering up the Truth

      3. SparklingJewel profile image65
        SparklingJewelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I need to learn to cut out what I want to reply (any tips)?

        postulate antichrist before christ.   From what I have gleaned from years of study in the realms that I have limited my self to; before it was known as the antichrist, before there had been  Christ in a person to base a new name of evil on, it was the concept of the original sin story.

        The version I have taken to heart is that this story of original sin was allegory for an entire race that allowed forces of evil to usurp the Soul that was One with God/Infinite Intelligence, etc...the mind was just the vessel that implemented the flow of energy/Light of God to the body to live, the pure Soul was in charge of that connection, but together the mind and Soul lived in the body in direct connection with the Source/God/Energy.

        Once the Soul was confronted and confused into believing she would not die if she partook of the knowledge of good and evil, she withdrew from the mind and fell into a lower state of consciousness, separated from the mind. So the evil was able to take over the mind. and the round of being lost, separated from God/Oneness began.

        So Infinite Intelligence/God continued to give information to this race that was scattered, and the other races that came to earth, through the sages, prophets and such from all areas of the world, to guide them back to Oneness. This is where the religions, philosophies, etc came from. But as the information of Truth came into and through the minds of these wise people, whose minds had already had been manipulated for however long, the message was partially unclear as to Truth, and they were unaware that it came out so and/or realized that doubting would make it even more unclear, so just had to believe they were prophesing correctly. Their power of faith was imperative for the greatest clarity coming through. And then of course, you have groups of people that get together and want to all believe it is a partiular way, and the power of their consciousnesses together creates momentum to draw others in...and you know the rest of the story.

        So Jesus, lived through many lifetimes, having been one of the original race that fell, and eventually evolved back to the state of pure Soul that became in charge of his own mind again and came to see complete Truth as the Mind of Christ. And so he became the one to show the way to overcome the world that the minds manipulated by evil  had produced...to get back to that Oneness with God.

        This is a very simplified version. all this could be mapped out in scripture, but I haven't done it. and the time and space thing, as far as how long and such is said by some, but it hasn't been one of my big concerns as yet to remember to pass along.

  4. knolyourself profile image62
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    If one assumes that God is outside all, and invisible to the senses, then the concept of God can only be an intellectual creation and sustainment and exist in the mind only. This is what I call religion. On the other hand, if it is said that God is space and time, and all that exists, then the sensory experience is the experience of God. This I would call spirituality.

  5. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Thom, you sly devil you (and I use that term in a way you will no doubt not interpret as a belief in god) - You already know the answer to this question smile

    He doesn't exist. And never did other than as a word used to attempt to describe the absence of understanding of the universe.

    As humans, we only understand what we can control. Before we learned to control fire, it was considered  a god.

    As our understanding of the physical universe grows, this word can only become more and more useless.

    But - It makes no difference if He is there or not. None. If the only proof in god is faith, as the christians profess, how can it make any difference if He is there or not. You can still have faith regardless.

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      But - It makes no difference if He is there or not. None. If the only proof in god is faith, as the christians profess, how can it make any difference if He is there or not. You can still have faith regardless.




      What would be the purpose of faith if you have no doubt that God does not exist.  Isn't it a bit of a misnomer? 

      My interpretation of faith, is believing in something you don't fully understand.  So would this mean you have faith in evolution or the Universe, or Life etc?   Or faith that, if you are wrong about the existence of God, that you will undoubtably be Ok?

      smile

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Faith is believing in something that cannot be proven. If god is proven, that means that there is no need for faith. Without faith, god is nothing. You can still have faith - whether god is there or not.  (see the other thread for arguments against evolution, which proves that their version is not true. )

        Are you starting to see the circularity of it?

        I believe I am alive. I believe that evolution happens. I believe that the universe exists. But I can see it, feel it, smell it, taste it.

        I believe that the sun will come up tomorrow - but only because I have watched it come up every day for the last 46 years smile

        Paraglider - too right

        1. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          But this is subjective right?  What is proof of God's existence...if it is what Yourself can see. 
          I have no need for faith. 

          I know the Universe exist because I can see it.  I can not:
          touch it, feel it, move it, taste it, or hear it or change it.

          I know that evolution happens because I can see it.  I can not:
          touch it, feel it, move it, taste it, or hear it or change it.

          I know that WE exist because I can see it, touch it, feel it, taste it, move it, use it, hear it, change it and love it etc.
          But I can not:
          Physically feel what you feel, what you taste, touch, hear, see, etc. that belongs only to yourself, can not be transferred not matter you do. I can't feel love the way you feel love.

          I know that God exist because, I can see it, hear it, and feel it, taste it, use it, and love it.
          but I can not:
          change it, or transfer it to you as in to make you know what I know. 

          So since I have  seen and heard God.  God does exist.  But what exist to me, is mine and mine alone.  You can not see what I see, hear what I hear, know what I know, love what I love the way that I love it, feel what I feel etc. 

          What is funny is that you believe in what you can see because everyone else can (theoretically) see it as well.  So I wonder what the bigger illusion is:  What you think you see, or what you think you can't see?  smile



          It is more logical to me to believe in something I can feel. 

          No one can see God for what it actually is. 

          Can you actually see evolution for what it actually is???

        2. Inspirepub profile image87
          Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Cannot be proven? Or has not yet been proven?



          And inductive inference is not conclusive, unless you use mathematical induction, which can't be applied to such things as the sun coming up.

          You know full well that observing something and expecting it to keep happening is illogical, yet you expect the sun to come up because it has in the past.

          When a light globe blows, and you watched it blow, the next time you come into the room at night you will hit the switch anyway, even when you know full well you haven't got the ladder out and changed the bulb yet.

          Many jokes rely on setting up an expectation with just two instances of something, then confounding the expectation with a left-field variation.

          We are wired to anticipate things when there is no logical basis for doing so.

          Jenny

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Cannot be proven. As I understand the meaning of god (or at least the christian, do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do-version) proof discounts faith. Therefore faith in the christian god must logically be un-proven. This is what they themselves preach. The minute it is proven, faith is destroyed. Whoever thought this one up was a god-like genius. No amount of logic or understanding will make it not TRUE.



            It is fair to say there are other reasons that I believe the sun will come up tomorrow. But one of the main reasons I expect it to is the fact that I have personally watched it do so for my entire life.

            I also believe the light bulb will come on when I hit the switch. If it blows often enough (as is happening in my house at the moment) I am ambivalent. It is probably going to come on, but I fully expect it to blow at some point.

            I also have a box of spare ones handy in case that happens. big_smile

            1. Inspirepub profile image87
              Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I think it's a bit of a "straw man" argument if you take an obviously moronic and self-serving distortion of the word "faith" and then want all the other people who use the word (who also think that usage is moronic) to agree with you that's what they mean by the word.

              They don't.

              I have faith in all sorts of things that have not yet been proven, but could be proven one day.

              I have faith that cancer can be prevented, cured, or both, for example.

              My faith in that does not depend in its inability to be proven. if anything, my faith in it depends on its ABILITY to be proven, but it hasn't been proven yet. There is an absence of evidence, at this point in time, to justify my faith.

              Yet, I have faith.

              That form of faith is not so easily pooh poohed.

              Stop kicking the straw man, we're all bored with that one. Why don't you engage with the dictionary definition of the word instead?

              Jenny

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                LOL

                Can't I have some fun too?

                This is the dictionary definition of the word faith (or one dictionary any way) as it applies to this conversation:

                "The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.

                Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

                So I have faith that I am sticking to that definition. Also, I "believe," that the christian god relies on faith without proof and the mere fact of asking for proof is enough to destroy that faith.

                Apart from that - once proven, the matter no longer rests on faith.

                And we are specifically talking about faith in god. Not faith in other things. If you choose to believe that we will eventually prevent or cure cancer that is your prerogative. I disagree.

                Science is no more the be-all and end-all than religion is. I don't see what this has to do with this discussion and merely serves as a distraction, but I will go along with you.

                Here are a few probable causes of cancer:

                Working at night
                Teflon
                Asbestos
                Benzene
                Close proximity to certain radio transmissions
                Electrical fields
                Dumping toxic waste in the sea and rivers

                We already know these things cause cancer. Why are we continuing to use them? And why do you have faith that we will stop using them? No more or less a blind faith that the christian religion.

                I personally am aware of cancer causing chemicals being dumped in a place I used to live. After banging my head against the wall along with many other people, the company that was doing the dumping was eventually folded and re-appeared in a new guise with the same board of directors. Completely absolved from any and all responsibility from the previous company's actions.

                Your faith is as mis-guided also. You genuinely believe that the pharmaceutical companies are interested in giving up one of their major cash cows?

                You are more naive than I thought.

                1. Inspirepub profile image87
                  Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  I don't see anything in the theological definition which says that one can only have faith in something which cannot be proven.



                  The dictionary doesn't say that, which is why I am referring to it as a straw man.



                  Of course. But that's not what we are discussing. We are discussing a period of time BEFORE something has been proven, but during which time it is not theoretically impossible to prove, just practically not possible at the time due to lack of technology or similar constraints.



                  Well, I am not a believer in anything which is theoretically impossible to prove.

                  I do believe there is a genuine phenomenon occurring, which can be generally labelled "spiritual experience", and I believe that phenomenon is natural and will eventually be fully explained.

                  It hasn't been yet, though, so that particular belief of mine is based on faith.



                  You are missing my point.

                  I don't really care about the ins and outs of the current state of cancer research.

                  I used that as a EXAMPLE of something I consider to be an article of faith.

                  By cataloguing the lack of evidence for this belief you merely highlight my point that it is an article of faith to believe this at this juncture in history.

                  My point is that my article of faith is not unprovABLE, merely unprovEN.

                  Unprovability is not a requirement for faith.

                  Those who say it is deserve the mockery that Douglas Adams sent their way.



                  I don't think the buggy-whip manufacturers were interested in giving up their major cash cows, nor the coopers, nor the masons, nor the purveyors of snake oil for that matter ...

                  Conspiracy theories are naiive. smile

                  Jenny

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    LOL

                    No - but the buggy manufacturers and road building companies and government were quite happy to shift their focus from making buggies to making cars - regardless of the impact on the whip manufacturers and coopers. You are just looking too far down the food chain.

                    Didn't want to make an enormous quote quote big_smile

                    And a conspiracy theory ceases to become a theory when the evidence proves otherwise. See injecting American servicemen with various disease and exploding nuclear bombs with people deliberately placed to be able to measure the effects, Erin Brockovic, deliberately sacrificing troops and civilians in the hope of starting wars, etc, etc, etc.

                    I have first hand watched several conspiracy theories turn into facts.

                    Refusing to accept the way things are is naiiive. big_smile

      2. 0
        Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Based on this definition of faith, you could truly say that you know nothing at all, as all experiences would rely on believing in something you don't fully understand. 

        Give me one example of something you fully understand and I will cede the point that you have at least some knowledge whatsoever.  Seeing as how humans by definition with their limited capacities cannot full understand anything, then by your definition you know nothing at all as knowledge requires at least the basic belief that you are competent to comprehend the thing at hand you are examining.

        If "fully" understand means the glass is "9/10th's" full and not 10/10th's full or some such concept then I can at the least say your statement is substantially incoherent because you have not mathematically quantified what "full" is.

        If "full" is defined as an expert understanding then I could rightly say that any one person knows very little about most things.

        However, this still would not mean to be what in the english language we mean when we say "fully understand" all arrogance aside.

        To me to claim a full understanding of anything is the very definition of arrogance, as an understanding that claims to be full has no room for learning more.

        1. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          based on the circumstances of life all together, no one knows anything at all,  the only things we know or think we know are measured by what they produce as long as the results are somewhat consistant. 

          Math at some point is only good for measuring how long the day last or how many days you lived, but when you die, what difference did it make?  Lifes is the joke.  smile  Everything we have or think we know is just a means to pass time away cause what else would we do?

    2. Raven Emrys profile image86
      Raven Emrysposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Greetings,

      I must disagree with you on several points Mark, the first being the point you made when you claimed that early humans considered fire to be "a god". As a Pagan who has studied the Epipaleolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic ages, from an ethnological and anthropological point of view for close to 30 years now, it would appear that early humans would have considered fire to have Divine Origins, but not to be a Deity in and of itself. Fire was seen as a gift and revered for its power - but was not considered to be a “God” that was to be actually worshiped. There is absolutely no evidence to support your claim of this whatsoever.

      Also in this same statement, you also claimed that: “As humans, we only understand what we can control.” Well I know for a fact that is not true. For example, I know for certain that I can not personally “control” a lightning storm, or a hurricane. But I do understand how they are formed and how they function within nature. So are you saying that I do not “understand” them simply because I can not control them?

      You also state that: "If the only proof in god is faith, as the christians profess..." - Well where did you ever hear that “faith” is the one and only form of proof that God exists? As a Pagan, I have experienced many forms of “proof” regarding The Divine Creators’ Existence. And these experiences are not based upon Faith, but upon actual physical experiences, manifestations, and miracles. And while Faith can be one way of “knowing” The Divine - it is by no means the only one.

      Thank you,
      Raven


      “The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.” - Pierre Abelard

      1. Thom Carnes profile image59
        Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        “The beginning of wisdom is found in doubting; by doubting we come to the question, and by seeking we may come upon the truth.” - Pierre Abelard


        And just look what happened to him ....

        1. Raven Emrys profile image86
          Raven Emrysposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Ah yes Thom, let us look at what happened to him throughout his life - shall we? 

          Pierre Abelard was a man of renowned genus, who as a boy studied the liberal arts and excelled at the art of dialectic (a branch of philosophy) which at that time consisted chiefly of the logic of Aristotle transmitted through Latin channels.

          As a teen, he traveled to Paris - to the great cathedral school of Notre-Dame, where he was taught for a while by William of Champeaux, the disciple of Anselm of Laon (not to be confused with Saint Anselm) a leading proponent of Realism. It was during this time that he changed his surname to "Abelard", sometimes written "Abailard" or "Abaelardus". He was soon able to defeat the master in argument, resulting in a long duel that ended in the downfall of the philosophic theory of Realism, till then dominant in the early Middle Ages (to be replaced by Abelard's Conceptualism, or by Nominalism, the principal rival of Realism prior to Abelard). First, against opposition from the metropolitan teacher, while yet only twenty-two, Abelard set up a school of his own at Melun, then, for more direct competition, he moved to Corbeil, nearer Paris.

          The success of his teaching was notable, though for a time he had to give it up, the strain proving too great for his constitution. On his return, after 1108, he found William lecturing at Saint-Victor, just outside the Ile-de-la-cite, and there they once again became rivals. Abelard was once more victorious, and now stood supreme. William was only temporarily able to prevent him from lecturing in Paris. From Melun, where he had resumed teaching, Abelard went on to the capital, and set up his school on the heights of Montagne Sainte-Geneviève, overlooking Notre-Dame. From his success in dialectic, he next turned to theology and attended the lectures of Anselm at Laon. His triumph was complete; the pupil was able to give lectures, without previous training or special study, which were acknowledged superior to those of the master. Abelard was now at the height of his fame. He stepped into the chair at Notre-Dame, being also nominated canon, about the year 1115.

          Distinguished in figure and manners, Abelard was seen surrounded by crowds, it is said thousands of students, drawn from all countries by the fame of his teaching. Enriched by the offerings of his pupils, and entertained with universal admiration, he came, as he says, to think himself the only undefeated philosopher in the world.

          The general importance of Abelard lies in his having fixed more decisively than anyone before him the scholastic manner of philosophizing, with its object of giving a formally rational expression to the received ecclesiastical doctrine.

          Outside of his dialectic, it was in ethics that Abelard showed greatest activity of philosophical thought; laying very particular stress upon the subjective intention as determining, if not the moral character, at least the moral value, of human action. His thought in this direction, wherein he anticipated something of modern speculation, is the more remarkable because his scholastic successors accomplished least in the field of morals, hardly venturing to bring the principles and rules of conduct under pure philosophical discussion, even after the great ethical inquiries of Aristotle became fully known to them.

          On top of all of this, he was also a gifted poet and musician.

          Yep. Pretty impressive life he led.

          Quite safe to say that he was a fairly wise fellow.

          Thank you for bringing that to everyone's attention.

          Merci Beaucoup!
          Raven

  6. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Sandra -

    I was talking about me - not you.

    What I see, feel taste, etc has no bearing on you. I see the universe. Every time I eat something, I taste the universe. Every time i hear something, I hear the universe.

    Also, it is unlikely that I will see/feel/hear/smell/taste something that is invisible to you and you cannot see/feel/hear/smell/taste it along with me.

    I can show you a fruit and you will more than likely see that fruit.

    I do not believe I am tasting something because some one else is tasting it also.

    This is the dictionary definition of faith as it applies to this conversation:

    "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

    But if you see/hear/feel/taste god - then god exists for you. Show him/her/it to me and I will change my tune.

    Yes, I can see evolution for what it actually is.

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Ok, then we are on the same page as far as what exist to what our own individual selfs know.

      But how can you actually see evolution for what it actually is? 
      If seeing it is only through what it produces, then that is an illusion to what evolution actually is.

      As I said before, I don't have any need for faith.  wink

    2. Kelley Eidem profile image80
      Kelley Eidemposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Showing God to you... that is, experiencing God... is YOUR job, and no one else's. It is not a mental exercise. No one else can do it for you any more than anyone else can walk for you.

      The tools for experiencing God are joy, love, forgiveness and gratitude. My experience is that God is more real than any other thing one might point to. If someone else could do it for you, it isn't God.

      The best to you.

      Kelley Eidem

      PS. God doesn't exist for me...I exist for God...and so do you.

      1. 0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I think God and I co-exist or cease to exist.

      2. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Actually. No. You don't and neither do I.

        The best to you also.

        1. Kelley Eidem profile image80
          Kelley Eidemposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Your answer would have been more accurate if you had said that you haven't EXPERIENCED the existence of God. Since I have experienced God's existence, you can't accurately say that I don't "exist for God" because you have no basis for knowing my inner experience.

          As I've explained before, the experience of God is not transferable, nor does it come from exercising the "mind machine."

          The keys for the experience of God come from exercising love, joy, forgiveness and gratitude. God rides in on that. Yes, exercising. In other words, practicing those traits.

          The best to you.

          Kelley Eidem

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Well we can keep this up as long as you like.

            No. You have no idea what I have or have not EXPERIENCED.

            Why do you pretend-religious people insist on shouting at everyone and TELLING THEM HOW IT IS?

            Please do not wish me the best again. It doesn't really work when it's a standard "have a nice day." Version.

            And the fact that I am convinced there is not a god means that I can accurately say that you do not exist for god. Because there is no god. Simple huh? If you just think about it.

            i.e that you are wrong. It will all become clear. And the keys to not being a condescending so and so come from an awareness of this also. Keep on trying - you will see the LIGHT. (There's even a song about it.)


            May you get all you deserve in this life. smile

            Misha - the 70's. big_smile

            1. Kelley Eidem profile image80
              Kelley Eidemposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Mark Knowles wrote:



              Well we can keep this up as long as you like.

              No. You have no idea what I have or have not EXPERIENCED.

              Why do you pretend-religious people insist on shouting at everyone and TELLING THEM HOW IT IS?

              Please do not wish me the best again. It doesn't really work when it's a standard "have a nice day." Version.

              And the fact that I am convinced there is not a god means that I can accurately say that you do not exist for god. Because there is no god. Simple huh? If you just think about it.

              i.e that you are wrong. It will all become clear. And the keys to not being a condescending so and so come from an awareness of this also. Keep on trying - you will see the LIGHT. (There's even a song about it.)


              May you get all you deserve in this life. smile

              Misha - the 70's. big_smile[/quote

              Mark, if you had experienced God, then you wouldn't be telling us there was no God. Therefore, it was a safe bet to say you had not experienced God.

              Nor have I told you "how it is" to use your words. It's impossible for me to tell you how it is...I told you it's not transferable, you can only experience it.

              As for wishing you the best, I would not deign to tell you what to write or what not to write. I choose that for myself as well.

              As for your convictions about the non-existence of God, a member of an isolated tribe in South America might be "convinced" that there is no city called Chicago. That belief by the tribal member, who has never experienced Chicago, doesn't make his erroneous belief true.

              You call my clarity condescending. And you call me a "so and so." Maybe the South American tribal member would consider you a condescending so and so for insisting that Chicago exists.

              You've asked for evidence of the existence of God while at the same time insisting there is no God. If you didn't want an answer to your question, and were merely posing a rhetorical question, you should have said so. Otherwise, please don't complain when the answer is given to you.

              I've provided you with the method for discovering the evidence yourself.

              To make that discovery, you have to use the right tools, i.e., you can't weigh yourself with a tape measure. Likewise, you can't prove or disprove the existence of God with the mind. The proper tools are joy, love, forgiveness and gratitude.

              The best to you.

              Kelley Eidem

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Kelley Eidem wrote:


                Mark, if you had experienced God, then you wouldn't be telling us there was no God. Therefore, it was a safe bet to say you had not experienced God.



                There are many options here. These are a few:

                1. I have experienced god - but learned a different lesson than you and I was told by god to do this
                2. There is no such thing as god, so I cannot experience him and neither can you, which calls the whole statement inti question
                3. I have experienced what you call god and we both experienced a different version - in my version, it turns out not to have been god
                4. You cannot know what I have or have not experienced, but decide that you can because that's the only option you have

                Quite apart from that - you told me I hadn't EXPERIENCED god - I hate being shouted at.


                That is telling me how it is.



                A simple request.


                I can put this person on a plane to Chicago. What I won't be doing is telling him he needs to believe it without having seen it.


                That's the difference. I would put him on a plane to Chicago. Not insist he believes it because  I said it is so.



                No - I didn't. And that wasn't even the original question. Which some one else asked. And you haven't answered either question to anyone's satisfaction.


                No - you haven't. And it would appear you cannot even honor a simple request from me.  You love me so much you will not even do a little thing like not saying "The best to you," when you do not mean it.

                May you get all you deserve in this life and the next.

                1. Kelley Eidem profile image80
                  Kelley Eidemposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Mark Knowles wrote:

                  Kelley Eidem wrote:


                  Mark, if you had experienced God, then you wouldn't be telling us there was no God. Therefore, it was a safe bet to say you had not experienced God.


                  If you experienced God but now deny his existence, then you would be lying here on this thread. I doubt that you've lied about your experience in that area.

                  As or #2, my experience differs from yours.

                  #3  Is an attempt to guess what my experience has been based on your own experience and are attempting to define mine as yours.

                  #4 I haven't attempted to say what your experience is. I've chosen to believe that you are telling us accurately that you haven't experienced God. Either you have or you haven't. if you have, then every defense for God's non-existence would be a lie on your part, wouldn't it? I take you at your word that you are not lying.

                  Now let me note that lists are the domain of the mind machine. The mind machine is a master of making lists. It has other positive attributes as well. Your list demonstrates once again that you're using a tape measure (your mind machine) to weigh yourself in your attempt to determine the existence of God. It does not work.

                  As for capitalizing the word "experience," I was merely emphasizing it. I could have bolded it instead. Please accept my apologies to you since you took it as shouting.

                  Your request is denied. :-) The fact is I really do wish you the best. Also, you are not the only person reading this public forum. It's important when relying on the written word to try to let all the readers know the tone of the thoughts.

                  The plane ride you're being offered in this case is the vibrational "plane" of love, joy, forgiveness and gratitude. So there is indeed a way to fly to Chicago (experience God.) You just have to get on that "plane." if you want to experience God. I'm not telling you that you have to...it's your choice. You can choose to stay in the mind machine for as long as you'd like.

                  The question was "How do you know God exists?" I've provided the answer, "through my experience." it is an experience unlike any other.

                  I make no attempt to prove it to you, but offer the tools for getting the experience for yourself, if you choose to do it. If you're not interested in having the experience, no one can make you. Likewise, I might offer you a cup of coffee, but you don't have to say yes to it either.

                  I'm not worried about your getting it. You'll have infinite opportunities to do so. There is no rush whatsoever. When that day comes, you'll be in my role and some other bloke will probably be in yours.

                  By the way, when you're doing the joy, love, forgiveness and gratitude schtick, you don't even have to be "looking" for God to experience God. So you can stop looking. And stop looking for proof. You will be the prover without even trying.

                  The best to you.

                  Kelley

  7. knolyourself profile image62
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    Hard to evaluate what stays the same. Course if it is said to change, then
    can be compared to the difference, better or worse.

  8. 2patricias profile image60
    2patriciasposted 8 years ago

    Hey, this is all really complicated stuff here. I just look a tree, a flower, a sunset, a child, my hand & see design. I think it takes more faith not to believe in God than to believe as to not believe is for me declaring that everything in the world and universe happened by chance, rather than by design. I'd find that impossible to believe as the odds on everything obeying laws of physics etc. would be incredible. Also our brains are only so big, think of ants in an anthill. Their understanding is restricted by the size & capability of their brains & their environment. I think it's just impossible for us to reduce God to something we can comprehend but we can look around us and be amazed by the pattern in the world. Ok so not an academic reply but it makes sense to me.

    1. Silent Assassin profile image60
      Silent Assassinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I think that you are onto something there, If we have to break down everything we experience into a world that makes sense, then there must be somethings that are outside that ability to evaluate.  It would be like going back in time and trying to convince early civilizations that the earth was round, when it obviously looked flat to them.
      I think that there will always be things that humans just aren't capable of understanding without "unlearning" what you think to be true and pursuing the true knowledge

  9. Thom Carnes profile image59
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    Well, this is all compelling stuff - as I was sure it would be. Many thanks for all your wonderfully varied responses

    You are (mostly) providing some truly fascinating  insights into your own pysches and neuroses - but still seem to be evading the central issue.

    Whether you believe God is an energy field, the power of Light, infinite Intelligence, alpha and omega, a great joyous Something or the redeemer of universal anthills, I feel the question still needs to be answered:

    If this God that you believe in so strongly and so vehemently and so unquestioningly suddenly ceased to exist, how would you know?

    (And could we PLEASE not start on evolution again!)

    1. Silent Assassin profile image60
      Silent Assassinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      If I was to believe so strongly and so vehemently and so unquestioningly that god existed then I would also believe that his / her / its non existance is not possible. But if that eventuality was to occur then I believe that the universe would plunge into infinate chaos, and that is how you would know.

      Or maybe nobody would answer my prayers.....smile

    2. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Ok, I was reading a hub from commentonthis7.  He said that Adam was created by God,and Eve was created from Adams rib.  He said they didn't have belly buttons. 

      I said however, if they didn't have belly bottons, then we were not created in God's image.

      He said that our belly bottons were made after Adam and Eve having children.  So I do say,  it was a process of evolution. 

      So another tasty tid bit woud be to say, we are still evolving into God's image. 


      Hmmmmm.....LOL.  smile

    3. Inspirepub profile image87
      Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Everything would cease to exist.

      1. 0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        So non existence is an illogical term.

        1. 2patricias profile image60
          2patriciasposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Thom, If you believe so strongly that you have all the answers, then why pose a question? I'm not sure of the point of creating these discussions unless you're really just a tiny bit challenged by the idea of  God. After all, there's no point in spending your time opposing something that doesn't exist.

          1. 0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            tasty questions make tasty threads. LOL.

          2. Thom Carnes profile image59
            Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I certainly don't believe I have all the answers. I don't necessarily believe I have ANY answers. But most my life I have been fascinated by people who *do* believe they have the answers, and I'm  interested in exploring the rational processes that inform such beliefs (if indeed there are any).

            I am not challenged in the slightest by the idea of God - but I am certainly challenged (or perhaps "intrigued" would be a better word) by people's belief in such an idea.

            And I am not "opposing" anything whatsoever - just curious, that's all.

  10. knolyourself profile image62
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    No pleasin' U Thom. Maybe U should just right 2 yourself.

  11. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    So check it out Thom.

    Mark says that God does not exist.
    I say God does exist.

    Mark says "        " does not exist.  Because "       " is nothing, doesn't exist.

    I say that "       " does exist because "        ", that doesn't exist, still exist in it's space.  That
    "         " is still something. 

    I said that you can not actually see evolution for what it actually is.  You can only see it through what it produces.  What evolution produces is consistancy.

    So I am pretty sure that we are actually thinking the same thing.  What Mark has is nothing and I have something.  ( not in a biblical sort of way)

    Radically,  even though we are speaking in exact opposition of the outcome.  We are actually talking about the same thing.  But neither of us can define what it actually is.  So then it is the Alpha and Omega. 

    It's almost like Mark and I are playing Alpha and Omega. 

    Of course this may not make sense to anyone but  Mark,  so it really is funny. LOLOL. 

    The only thing my mind can not comprehend is nothing because even nothing is something.  That is God to me. 

    You know plus other stuff, that everyone is capable of doing whether believing or not believing. 


    Or as I like to say, there is no such thing as nothing, so I think in Marks terms, he is also saying there is no such thing as nothing.  But this nothing is what I call God which is always something.  smile

  12. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    It is funny. And that's the point LOL

    big_smile

    Doesn't help Thom's question though. If it was gone - would you notice ?

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I think the better question is...if I was gone, would I notice. LOL smile

  13. 0
    Graceful Guardianposted 8 years ago

    Isiah 42: 14
    says ,"I have kept silent from of old,I have been still and held Myself back.Like a woman in labour I now cry out."

    He sits in silence waiting for his words to be fulfilled,He said "A word has gone out of my mouth and shall not return until It has acommplished all I have sent it out to do."

  14. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Or, If you were the only one that noticed, would that still count?

    And if you didn't notice, how would you know?

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      LOL, not sure.  If I was the only one to notice, then I would be God.  If I didn't notice, then someone else would. 

      Keep um coming. Too fun.

  15. 2patricias profile image60
    2patriciasposted 8 years ago

    If I thought your question was a genuine enquiry I could give a more personal reply but as you are a convinced atheist could you have other motives? If you really want answers for yourself why not try reading a gospel (maybe Matthew or John) with an open mind? Anyone else's experience of God in their life would be difficult to comprehend as it would be so remote from your own experience & understanding & I think you might be tempted to pour scorn or psycho-analyse! Hopefully I'm wrong on that last bit.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      The question is not whether god exists, but whether, if She does, her absence would be noticeable, given the facts that Thom originally stated.

      I heartily suggest opening your mind before opening your book. And perhaps reading a few others that may shed some light on the matter. Or are you just a tiny bit challenged by this question?

      1. 2patricias profile image60
        2patriciasposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Have read widely, even studied the Sociology of Religion at college/university. Concluded God is real after trying not to. Small problem of experiencing God in my life.

  16. LisaG profile image60
    LisaGposted 8 years ago

    Nature alone would show that God exists.  Can something just evolve from nothing?  It must have somebody to make it all happen.  Just the way the human body operates alone would tell you that there was some thought to the design into putting us together.  Could that just happen by the way?

    1. Inspirepub profile image87
      Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Please refer to the "Atheism Rules!" thread for a COMPREHENSIVE exploration of evolution vs creationism.

      1. Silent Assassin profile image60
        Silent Assassinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I think that forum just spilled on to this one....

        1. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I know,  were gonna write all the same things here that we wrote there. LOL.  smile

  17. Thom Carnes profile image59
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    Jenny - I know we have discussed previously this notion of yours that "spiritual experience" will (may?) eventually be explained rationally.

    But are you talking about spiritual experience in general (which, of course, can include all sorts of weird and wonderful things) - or do you have some specific instances in mind?

    And how exactly do you differentiate between them?

    1. Inspirepub profile image87
      Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I am not talking about weird and wonderful things. You can find fruit loops and whackos claiming all sorts of things and calling it "spiritual".

      I am talking about the consistent experience reported by people of ages, languages, cultures and religions. The sense of contacting something infinitely vast and powerful within oneself, and an associated constellation of emotions. The thing all religions have in common, basically, the ones that last beyond the lifetime of single charismatic founder.

      1. Thom Carnes profile image59
        Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        ....except, of course, that one person's "weird and wonderful" thing can be another person's "infinitely vast and powerful" thing, can't it?

        I just wondered what criteria one uses to tell them apart .....

  18. stanton profile image60
    stantonposted 8 years ago

    To me it is more than a question of you either believe it or you dont, I grew up in a pentecostal home, but it was only when I was confronted with certain problems that God became real in my life, I knew about religion, I knew the Bible, but I didnt Know God, as to what led me to that realisation, is another story, the answer to the question YES I BELIEVE HE IS REAL.

    1. Thom Carnes profile image59
      Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      But that isn't the question.

      The question isn't about understanding WHAT you believe - the question is about understanding WHY you believe it.

      Most believers seem to have very little problem explaining/ describing what they believe: they are more than capable of writing pages and pages about it - and more often than not in pretty incomprehensible language.

      The problem seems to arrive when they are asked to explain the *basis* for those beliefs, or the *process* which lead them to those beliefs.

      And an even bigger problem arises when they are asked to explain those things clearly and concisely, using language which other people can understand.

      1. Inspirepub profile image87
        Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        See, I am just the wrong person to ask, because I don't "believe" anything.

        Other than that there is an actual experience that people have, I guess. I believe they are NOT all making things up and NOT all randomly making up very similar things by some cosmic accident.

        I believe there is a measurable basis to the experience, just as there is for normal waking consiousness and for sleep, and that it will be better defined and explained in years to come.

        For want of a more concise label, and to enable communication with others about this experience, I am willing to use the label any other person chooses to use for it - God, Brahma, Nirvana, Higher Self, Divinity, Goddess, Universal Energy, Atman, Allah, etc.

        This does not mean I subscribe to any embellishments that otherwise might go with the label, just that I am willing to use it.

        This thing of which I speak could not disappear without me (and in all likelihood the rest of the universe) disappearing at the same time.

        If you want to use the word God to refer to something which could potentially disappear without its disappearance being noticed, then you are no longer talking about anything spiritual for which I have a referent at all.

        I have answered your question and explained how I define the word "God" when I answer it - this clearly differs from the definition of God you used in formulating the question.

        I suspect that taking the definition of God you used when asking the question would render your question rhetorical, actually.

  19. 2patricias profile image60
    2patriciasposted 8 years ago

    Totally agree. Absolutely nothing can change your conviction once you have  experieced  God in your life  but it's personal so people have to go on their own journey. The Gospels are a pretty good place to start exploring. You have to make up your mind whether they are true or not.

  20. Thom Carnes profile image59
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    Jenny - I think your "spiritual" beliefs are perhaps a little more sophisticated (if that's the right word) and in a different category to most people's on this forum. (This is a simple observation, not a value-judgment).

    What I am seeking to understand here are the ordinary "religious" beliefs that most religious believers subscribe to: a creator, a personal deity, an object of prayer and worship, etc...

    I do not question the validity of such religious experiences. I don't think that's the pertinent question. The pertininent question is not whether people have such experiences, but *where* such experiences come from and on what basis they are maintained.

    The question I originally asked may indeed be a rhetorical one from your point of view (and  from mine, too, in all probability) - but ought to be a very "real" and meaningful one as far as the more traditional theists are concerned.

    Or am I just asking - and expecting - too much?

  21. Peter M. Lopez profile image92
    Peter M. Lopezposted 8 years ago

    Excellent.  Another fascinating thread.  I have been away from my computer for a few days (preparing the house, nursery, etc. for the arrival of the next generation of believers big_smile ).



    Thank you.


    I would respectfully disagree with the premise that God cannot be experienced in any sensory way whatsoever.  I believe He can.  If by sensory you mean seeing, hearing, touching, etc.  I can give examples of hearing and feeling Him.  I must admit, I have not seen Him yet, but it's only a matter of time.  Whether these examples satisfy the asker or not is another matter.  I will give a few if you want...


    If God ceased to exist, so would we and everything else.  In my opinion, nothing exists apart from Him.  I don't know if we would know, we just wouldn't be.

    1. Thom Carnes profile image59
      Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Hi, Peter! Nice to have you back here again!

      I have no doubt that you can provide evidence of God's existence - but can you provide evidence which isn't based on anecdote and hearsay?

      Personal testimony is all very well - but it's difficult to persuade other people who don't share your beliefs that it is "happening" anywhere other than inside your own head.

      That's the problem, I think.

      1. Peter M. Lopez profile image92
        Peter M. Lopezposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, that is the problem, especially across thousands of miles and over telephone wires.  However, just to clarify: the manifestations of the Holy Spirit do not happen inside your head.  Actually, your head gets in the way more than anything else.  I have probably talked myself out of more encounters with God than I have actually allowed myself to be used in...the whole "fear of man" thing.

        1. 0
          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I second that.  The Holy Spirit does not happen inside your head.  Actually, your head gets in the way. 

          That is true.  wink

  22. stanton profile image60
    stantonposted 8 years ago

    In order for me to tell why I believe, I would have to tell you the circumstances surrounding the events that led me to it. How much time do you have, I would at least need 350 to 400 words and even then, it only touches on it.

    1. Thom Carnes profile image59
      Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      You can use as many words as you like - but it would certainly help your "case" ( and encourage others to read those words) if they don't consist *solely* of Biblical quotations and personal (or even second-hand) testimony.

      Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with those things - they're just not very effective when it comes to persuading/ convincing other people.

      (Please see my reply to Peter Lopez above).

  23. Misha profile image74
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    LOL Thom, is it your response to Mark's Atheism Rules! thread? You have quite a lot to catch up with - his thread is approaching 1000 posts fast big_smile

    I have not read your thread anyway, so I'm heading to the first page now - to see if I can add something meaningful by chance smile

  24. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    1=0=1   God   absolute 0,  nothing is only definable by something else.  Without zero the number 10 is impossible.

  25. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Welcome back Misha. How was your weekend? I only saw that post too late LOL

    They tell me it only hurts the first time - that right?

    big_smile big_smile

  26. Misha profile image74
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    Thanks Mark big_smile

    It did not hurt even the first time. smile Some interesting experience - I think I'll post something on this later...

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Glad to hear it. I narrowly avoided the same thing a few years ago. 120mph in a 55 in Loooziana. 1 in the am. The cop looked at my paper English drivers license and said, "What's that then boy?"

      After I explained that this was indeed an English driver's licence I could see the cogs whirring and he finally came to the conclusion that it would be too much paperwork. he handed it back and told me to slow down. Whew !

      I wasn't so lucky in the wilds of Virginia. $650 fine for 95 in a 55. big_smile

  27. stanton profile image60
    stantonposted 8 years ago

    Do you believe in the Law of attraction,  "The Secret" Lucid Dreaming, the fact that it works for people who believe in it cant be disputed. Just as I cant speak scientifically, I am a high school drop out, I dont care if you've got the whole alaphabet behind your name; I only know what I know, and I know that I know it, and how do I know it? It happened to me thats why, God meets you at YOUR point of need, not Johnny down the road, but you personally so how do I tell you without being personal, how a drug addict and a compulsive gambler turned around? Impersonal believe in God is theology, abstract, it isnt a way of life. Just theory thaty is it.

    Are you are prepared to put your action where your mouth is; forget your ability and start doing what you read in the Bible. Read the Bible for 90 days implement it, Believing in God as being real isnt just a belief it is a way of life, like everything else in life you undertake, You need to be sold out 100%, otherwise you are playing games and being pedantic, and you dont want an answer, the reason you dont want an answer is because it will be admitting you are not omnipotent or omniescient.

    Whether you believe or not is up to you, only when your relationship with God becomes personal, a one on one with you and God does it become a way of life and not religion.

    By the way the manifestation isnt in my head, I can tell you all about things in the head believe you me.

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      so what happened?  What did God say to you?

  28. stanton profile image60
    stantonposted 8 years ago

    This is leading nowhere, believe what you want to believe cos you going to anyway, I might be  stupid but I recognise sarcasim when I read it.

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      it wasn't sarcasm,  obviously I am in the same number as you.  I just want to know what happened.  I wonder because you are talking exactly like I was talking just a few months ago. 

      I am your friend if you can believe that.  smile

  29. stanton profile image60
    stantonposted 8 years ago

    I had not only gambled everything I owned but also gambled someone elses house, a family member deep into debt, bombed out of my mind on uppers and downers, and acid coctail. I gave God an ultimatum show me you are real or I call it quits; Well nothing happened, I went and locked myself in a a room took 50 phenobarb ten valium and a couple of others for good measure.

    My sister told me they had honestly thought I wasnt at home, my niece who was only two at that time asked me to open the door; only after shed had asked me to open the door did I open it, at that time she was the most important person in my life, her voice penetrated right into my unconciousness to open the door, the doctors at the hospital didnt give me much hope.

    My niece is twenty five, I have never taken drugs since then, gamble holds no appeal for me at all;

    I didnt go to the street corner and start preaching, I started reading the Bible, and started following the principles. two years later after hitchhiking, I was dropped off in a rough area in Cape Town, I had been reading the Bible before I was picked up, I had tucked in the front of my pants, when I got in the car, guys came up and mugged me, one stabbed me, he saw me smiling and telling him Jesus loved him. I still have that Bible, and I still read it. Lets say for arguments sake there is no God, and when I die and find there is no God, the life I have lived since believing there is a God is of a higher quality, more rewarding, having worked with drug addicts, homless unemployed, and the blessings that come from tithing.

    God speaks to me through His word, through inspired thoughts, because my abilities are very limited, like my writing.

    Disregard it because its not scientific, but dont knock it till yopu have lived it.

  30. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    I like that.  It really is this way huh?  When you meet God, things happen.  Makes this so called life seem surreal.  Makes you heart beat in a different way.  The adreneilen moves your life.  it's exciting, almost too exciting, or in other words, when someone takes it into exstreme depression of the illusion,  becoming aware in what is real, takes your existence to a whole new level. 

    It is a bit scary to know the roots of life.  It's not scary meeting God or scary in all these things being preached, what is scary is how real it is.  I question everything I have ever learned and remembering something better. 

    I am not sure what this life means.  But for whatever reason it is special.  I don't know why though. 

    It's hard to bring into existence something from nothing.

  31. Thom Carnes profile image59
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    stanton - Thank you for that very moving personal testimony. I certainly don't want to say one word to deny or try to belittle what you have said. You have obviously been through a great deal and deserve the respect and admiration of all of us on this forum.

    Thank you once again for sharing it with us.

  32. Misha profile image74
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    Guys,

    You both intrigued me. I'm dying to learn how that happens. Could you share? Just one example, pleaaaaase.. smile

  33. Inspirepub profile image87
    Inspirepubposted 8 years ago

    Have you read Eckhardt Tolle's "The Power of Now"?

    I can turn that on and off at will these days.

    1. Misha profile image74
      Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Looks like I have to put it on the top of my list "to read", even above Plato big_smile

      And as soon as I start reading again, I'll get to it. Or do you think it alone is worth starting to read?

  34. Thom Carnes profile image59
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    Peter, Sandra - Yes, I share this confusion.

    If it doesn't happen inside your head, where exactly does it happen?

  35. stanton profile image60
    stantonposted 8 years ago

    When you fall in love where does that happen? Can rationalize it, if you cant do you believe in love or do you throw the bath water out with the baby in it.

    Picture this if you can, forgive me for relating from a personal experience, a guy sitting in a coffee bar, well dressed, from all outer appearances looking very successful, my clothes were old, neat but old bit thread bare; I had finished my coffee paid for it and was leaving, as I passed this guy, I had a strong feeling I had to stop and talk to him as well as pray for him. I dont have a problem strangers, I sold door to door and trained others, If I had stopped to rationalise what I was thinking I wouldnt have acted, I wouldnt have had the guts. The result is that which I had to pray for with him was spot on. If I told you I had ESP you would believe me, so why is it so hard to believe when I say I was led by the Holy Spirit.

    There is only one way you can experience it for your self and that is to pray and wait on Him, and if you dont believe in Him, you can tell Him; that is why you were given a free will; forget formulas for praying say whats on your mind, and wait the answer will come and you will know it when it comes.

  36. VioletSun profile image68
    VioletSunposted 8 years ago

    titlef this God that you believe in so strongly and so vehemently and so unquestioningly suddenly ceased to exist, how would you know? >>>

    The question implies we are separate from God, which is what many religions teach; that God is somewhere above, and we are in this planet (below), hence the separation that humanity experiences.  I believe we are all God; every part of creation IS God. If God ceased to exist, we will all cease to exist as well, and never know.  At least this is what I believe. cool
    (like this cool shades smiley, LOL)

  37. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Thom – I disagree with Peter and Sandra – of course LOL

    What they and every other religious person is attempting to describe is an awareness of and connection to everything around us that is deeper than the usual five senses. Not a god. No greater purpose. Or porpoise. Or rules that must be followed. No requirement for you to pray for some one else.

    We no longer feel this connection on a daily basis, having spent an awful lot of time physically cutting ourselves off from the world we inhabit. (see ipods, air-conditioned cars, heated offices etc etc etc)

    This is not a connection to god. And if this is the name Peter and Sandra have given this connection, then in their words, it is not possible to exist without this. It just is. I don’t know what would happen if you took this away, but the only way I can see it not existing is if everything ceased to exist at the same time. I guess this is what they mean by saying that if god stopped existing, they would also.

    But in my understanding of it, there is no need for rules, no need or requirement to preach, no need to give it a name, no frustration that others cannot see what I see. No need to help other people find it. No rules!

    This woman, Judith Anodea has some stuff worth reading:

    http://www.sacredcenters.com/index.html

    If you ignore the flowery, new-agey, health and healing of the planet stuff it is palatable and interesting. The “Wheels of Life,” is a good place to start. I have not read the book Jenny mentions, so I can’t comment on that one, but I would suspect the goal is the same, even if the method and explanation differs.

    What needs to happen is for a person to experience this connection themselves. And to the extent that no-one else can feel it for you or with you, it happens in your head. Even if you and I sit and look at something – I cannot see what you are seeing, or feel what you are feeling. (Well, I can sometimes, but that’s a whole different discussion.)

    It seems to me you are similar in outlook and experiences to me, so I will try and explain it in ways I understand it. Might help - might not LOL

    What needs to happen is an alteration of your consciousness. There are lots of ways to achieve this, but many of the old ways involve a degree of physical discomfort or repeated behaviour. Many religions have rituals to help you achieve this. Mantras that you repeat over and over and over. Chanting. Wearing a hair shirt and whipping yourself. The Latin Mass. Sweat lodges. And on and on. They are all striving for the same thing. The Christians call it a connection to god, the American Indians call it walking in the spirit world, the Yogics call it Kundalini rising. On and on. The Martial artists call it Chi development (And this particular connection is quite different to the others) Not quite all the same, but similar.

    It doesn’t require faith, although a determination that it cannot happen will certainly get in the way – In that, I agree with Peter and Sandra – if that’s what they mean?

    Sometimes, this connection also happens by mistake and it can freak you out LOL Also, it is possible to be in the presence of some one else who can “Turn it on,” for you. Sometimes unbeknownst to them.

    It requires some effort on your part usually. Some people spend years practicing yoga and never make the connection. Although, as I understand it, just attempting is also beneficial.

    Jenny believes that this will some day be measurably by the god, “Science.” But I am not so sure. For me it is not necessary to measure it, or give it a name and convince any one else of it. You either feel it or you don’t. And you can choose not to. And, like Peter’s and Sandra’s god – it is there whether you are aware of it or not.

    I won’t bother sharing any anecdotal evidence with you – But I will say that you can make the same connection in plenty of other ways. A good bottle of Tequila and too long in a hot tub on a starry night can do it LOL

    I myself found it from a combination of years of Martial arts practice, years as a massage therapist and an openness to whatever was out there. There are easier ways if you are looking for it. I wasn’t.

    It’s hard to explain something you cannot sense using the usual senses. But, have you ever had the feeing that some one was watching you when there was no one around? Or become anxious for no reason? Or had the hairs stand up on the back of your neck without knowing why? Our sympathetic nervous system is more closely locked into this awareness than our parasympathetic one. (Of course Jenny will probably beat up my rudimentary scientific explanation lol)

    But this is the defense mechanism part of this connection. I think much of our day to day stress comes from the fact that we rarely use our sympathetic nervous system. And when we do, it is often at an inappropriate time when we are not actually threatened. Most of the traditional ways of making this connection play into the parasympathetic nervous system, but using this one makes a very strong connection.

    So, long answer short – no one can explain this to you. You must experience it for yourself. No faith needed. LOL And you may need to explore a few avenues of approach before you find the right one.

    And it doesn’t matter if you don’t. You are certainly not going to hell if you don't lol. big_smile

  38. Thom Carnes profile image59
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    Mark - that's certainly the most lucid and accessible explanation I've yet encountered for the "cosmic awareness" / "universal connection" point of view.

    I'll be completely honest with you: I really struggle with this sort of thing. Whether it's a question of individual temperament, or simply that my own personal mental/ intellectual development has been via Western philosophy and literature rather than the mystical/ metaphysical path, I'm not really sure.

    But I certainly struggle to get my head around the sort of thing you describe. And I can't help wondering: What's the desired outcome? What is it all supposed to achieve? Enlightenment? Nirvana? Oneness with the Eternal Godhead?

    I guess I just have an innate distrust of the vague, the mystical, the "other-worldly".

    I suppose the closest I can relate to this sort of thing is in the act of falling in love.

    And I still believe that that happens inside our heads - although, of course, rapidly spreading to other parts of our anatomy ....

    1. Inspirepub profile image87
      Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Why does there have to be a purpose? Or an outcome? Or an achievement?

      What if all THOSE things exist only in your mind, and are not real?



      There is nothing other-worldly about this experience. In fact, for me, the quickest road in is physical, sensory, sensual awareness. It is all about being fully present.

      I think you would probably get a lot from reading Eckhardt Tolle's book, because he was an academic, studying for his PhD, when he snapped into this state of being one day. He describes the experience very thoroughly and with all the clarity that academic training can bring.



      I would have to disagree with this comparison. Falling in love is not analogous because the brain processes involved in that distort your perceptions and make you LESS in touch with reality, not more in touch. Falling in love is a form of temporary insanity where you literally become addicted to the sight and sound of another human being (all the same brain pathways, motivational rather than emotional brain centres, etc.)

      Being fully present FEELS AS GOOD as you feel when you are in love, except that the thing which makes you feel so good is REAL. It is life itself, not an idealised image you hold in your motivational brain centre and refuse to reality check.

      Sometimes, more or less by accident, we fall in love with someone compatible. Yay for those of us to whom that happens, but we can't really take credit for what is essentially winning at roulette.

      This state I am talking about is ALWAYS avaliable, reliably joyous, and completely trustworthy. Unlike any other human being.

      I am not dissing relationships, or falling in love - they have their pluses. But they are not comparable with spiritual experience, IMHO.

      Jenny

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        None of this. This is all stuff that has been added by the person doing the experiencing. My personal thinking  (I hesitate to use the word "belief,") is that this is a straight-out throwback to a time when we were able to sense predators, prey and were more in tune with our environment than we are now. It just is. Watch a cat stalking something. No matter how silent, the something somehow becomes aware of the cat - sometimes smile



        Me too. This is all just added stuff. Nothing mystical about this connection. And it is very much a this-worldy connection.




        If you mean thinking the same thing as your partner, or both deciding at the same time that you want spaghetti bolognese for dinner. Or finishing each other's sentences - Maybe. smile

        Jenny made some good points too. I certainly feel better having made the connection, but I do not feel the need to give it a greater purpose or ascribe it to a "creator," or make up terms that  are meaningless by themselves.

        The book I suggested is written in a way that appeals to the western mind. Try it - all you will have wasted is a few quid. smile

        But there are definitely things you can do to make this connection if you want to. No blind faith, no needing to listen to some one preach about what you should or shouldn't do.

        And even if you make the connection it is real easy to fight it or allow yourself to be distracted away from it. The Christians will tell me I am denying God and some of them will tell me I am going to hell when I do this. But if they had a genuine connection - they wouldn't be saying these things. Jesus - if he even existed - probably had a strong connection. I think he is a made up construct/amalgam to try and explain this and give the church some degree of power over you when you feel this. But I am aggressively antagonistic towards the church and am prepared to accept that I might be overdoing this smile

        I personally choose to turn it off most of the time because it is so strong for me and I am so aware of the "invisible," connections that I am almost unable to function on a day to day basis. Instead I channel the energy in other directions. Such as writing prolifically on the internet LOL

        1. stanton profile image60
          stantonposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Mr Knowles Sir would you mind showing me your invisible connection, or show me that it exists?

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            LOL

            Cannot. Don't need to. Don't want to. Not important. smile

            Neither will I be telling you what you should be doing. Nor asking you for any money, tithes etc.

            Nor telling you that this connection in any way shape or form has told me how you should live your life - or even how I should live mine. smile

            Don't care if you believe it or anyone else believes it. Won't be going to war over it or burning anyone at the stake who doesn't believe it.

            Are we seeing the difference yet?

            1. stanton profile image60
              stantonposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I have always followed Frederick S Perls axiom:
              You do your thing I will do mine, I am not in this world to live up to your expectation, nor are you here to live up to mine; if we should happen to meet each other along the way, beautifull if not just to bad.

              Having said that, you either missed the point of my question, or you chose to cop out.

              The question was asked within the paremeters that you set for somone to define the basis of what and why they believed something.

              That basis is the ground upon which you stand; in which you are rooted and grounded; very often that very same premise cannot be defined in simple cliched platitudes; It those very same principles that that motivate our actions and reactions they are not dependant on us understanding them; which brings me to another principle of tithing, I dont perscribe to anybody to tithe or not to tithe, I do becauise I love God. Before I started reading the Bible I still gave ten% of what I earned to charity, again I dont perscribe to anybody to do it or not to do it, I did it because I believed in putting something back into the community where I was living at the time.

              Your cop out gave me an answer.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                LOL - Cop out. I think I explained myself very clearly. This is what a tithe is:

                A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.

                That is different to giving to charity. You used the word tithe first.

                If you had said, "Give 10% of my earnings to charity," I would not have mentioned the word. smile

              2. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                LOL - Cop out. I think I explained myself very clearly. This is what a tithe is:

                A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.

                That is different to giving to charity. You used the word tithe first.

                If you had said, "Give 10% of my earnings to charity," I would not have mentioned the word. smile

                1. stanton profile image60
                  stantonposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  etymologically speaking tithe is the old english for tenth, nothing to do with clergy, it was the only word they had to translate the Hebrew which was also a tenth. as matter of interest

        2. Peter M. Lopez profile image92
          Peter M. Lopezposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Didn't I tell you that you saw things others didn't see?  You are a prophet waiting to happen.  I knew it.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            And you know what happens to prophets? big_smile

            1. Peter M. Lopez profile image92
              Peter M. Lopezposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              You're thinking of Old Testament prophets.  New Testament prophets have a whole new role, one which you would be great for.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Still formulating the correct response. smile

                Mental institution? Jail?

                1. Peter M. Lopez profile image92
                  Peter M. Lopezposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  ...edification of the church.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    LOL

                    I don't want to end up nailed to two pieces of wood. big_smile

                    I have no Father to resurrect me.

                  2. Inspirepub profile image87
                    Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Any church is by definition unedifiable.

      2. 0
        Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Sounds to me like you have reached a very deep, peaceful, joyous and continous trance state to me  and that you are practicing carefully to sustain this state of mind.tongue

        Chances are if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck but isnt a white duck it might be the ugly duckling instead!

        Interesting that you promote this Eckhardt guy, sounds like a cult leader to me hmmmm.

        But I digress w/e floats ur boat.

        Imo the kind of meditation you are practicing and studying does not raise traditional intellectual cognition (that related to IQ concepts) at all, only bodily and emotional cognition, and I would like to add at the cost of the intellectual cognition if it is not done in moderation!

        1. Inspirepub profile image87
          Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Well, it comes and goes, I have to say. The problem is remembering that it is possible, and noticing that I have fallen out of it.



          I am not quite sure which duck you are watching, here.



          Is this based on having read his books, or just on the conversation in this thread?

          I have never met the man personally, but what he writes is very useful to someone who wants to approach spirituality without religious baggage.





          Yes, we have noted that fact. One needs to maintain a certain level of cognition in order to do things like, ooh, eating ....

          Jenny

      3. 0
        Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        "This state I am talking about is ALWAYS available, reliably joyous, and completely trustworthy.  Unlike any other human being"

        I found this interesting as I was digging.

        What you have just described here is a mere altered state of consciousness which I have experienced many times, before and after I was "religiously" inclined.  Except that now I interpret it as a feeling that is deeply satisfying and connects me to other things/people and not as some sort of objective "spiritual" force outside of my own mind or experience.

        Surely if there is any evidence that this exists outside of my own mind other than the fact that we are all part of the universe, then I will heed the facts and take them to heart.

        My understanding of "spirituality" is completely subjective, e.g. I feel it exists but I know it is more of a "self contained" experience.

        Dr. Persinger I think his name is, does tests on "spiritual" experiences that are quite interesting.  I have found him to be a source of good information.

        Perhaps the mistake people make is taking this experience to be dogmatically true in one form or another and then persecuting people who do not adhere to "spiritual information" that was "discerned" while in this trance.  For me, this is the true definition of madness, joy experienced and "lessons" learned that get translated into misery for other people who do not believe similarly.

        I am willing to bet that if the human organism could be genetically modified in such a manner that this trance state was unattainable, there would be no "God" talk possible except by those who were still unmodified.  That would suck though, because then one could not experience the joy that is inherent for being in this state for hours or even days at a time.

        I definitely would not call this state "true being" or "permanent".  Most people who practice trained forms of dissociation that I have heard or read about suffer from withdrawals if they become psychologically and or physiologically dependent on the trance state for emotional and psychological ability and/or daily functioning.  I have read about people who practiced this state suffering from migraines when they could not get their "daily meditation" in, after years of practicing and seeking it as much as possible.

        Just like anything else, moderation is key.  Nature is such an exacting taskmaster when the human organism does too much of any one thing.  People delude themselves by "thinking" otherwise, but the human organism can become dependent on just about anything, and indeed is dependent on several things just to continue to exist on a day by day or week by week basis.

        Would this spiritual experience be considered "necessary" for the human organism to psychologically survive the harsh realities of life?  I think there is a very good case that could be made that it is necessary, as some of the best ways of dealing with stress and finding emotional joy include going into the exact state your describing Jenny.

        I have been there many times and will be there many more, supposing I don't get hit by a steaming mad 800 pound gorilla.

        tongue

        smile

        P.S.

        I usually have three rules of thumb that I stick with when examining the frequency with which I attain or try to attain any one thing:

        Balance through moderation
        Asserting will when balance is lost by spiting myself and abstaining from the thing in question
        Doing the contrary action if it is not harmful so as to promote balance.

        For me balance is key in all areas of life. 

        Doing this enables me to try to avoid egregious transgressions that will result in my own nature taking me to task for what I have done to unbalance one part of my whole body (the mind being but one part of the body and not separate).

        When I find it is too difficult to restore balance, I at least admit I feel that way about it and do not attempt to rationalize my actions (such as smoking).


        This is my own view of things and I think it is safe to say in the "religion" forum that this "obviously has no more weight than you want to assign it".

        /me grins mischievously

        smile

  39. Inspirepub profile image87
    Inspirepubposted 8 years ago

    Jill Bolte Tayor (a neuroanatomist who had a stroke shut down her left brain and lived to describe the experience) talks about this (totally connected) experience, and suggests that we need the left brain (not connected, separate) function in order to remember, plan, and make things happen.

    Fascinating video online here:

    http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/1 … -a-stroke/

    In other words, as Mark has suggested, living fully in this state all the time is not very practical. In my case I think it would result in starvation unless someone else brought me food.

    It feels great, but the other thought process aids survival.

    I would also add that you need the other thought process to co-create. In pure connection, you are purely receptive, and have no separate "mental space" in which to construct something that does not yet exist - therefore, you cannot bring into being anything new. You can only appreciate what is.

    An intermediate state is really good for productive creativity - painting, drawing, etc. It's a useful state for developing story concepts, but you have to come fairly far up into the verbal world again to actually write anything down.

  40. Misha profile image74
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    Well guys,

    You finally got to the core of it. smile And it appears Mark is pretty much as "religious" as Sandy or Peter - just calling his experience different names. I strongly suspected this before, but I think this is the first time Mark stated his experience so clear and unambiguously.

    And looks like Thom and myself are the only real "atheists" around - i.e. those who did not have such an experience as you guys describe. I don't know about Thom, but I kinda feel jealous and disappointed - why it is you guys are already there - and I can't, despite many years of working of it? What I am doing wrong? IDK, and this frustrates me a lot sad

    1. Kitchy Wytch profile image60
      Kitchy Wytchposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think it should frustrate you, Misha.  Each of us are what we are.  We see the world/universe/life/religion all differently.  I'm a pagan living with an atheist husband and raising agnostic children! LOL

      In my opinion, an atheist is one who thinks along tangible and proven terms.  A fundamentalist is one who think solely along the lines of faith.  Then there are those of us in the middle.  I'm an evolutionist and have a great love of Anthropology and Biology.  I'm also a person who sees the Earth itself as a living entity and has faith in a "Source" with his aspects being the gods and goddesses that I worship.  I have learned to divide the lines between science and faith and  love them separately. 

      But then again, I'm not the type of person who requires proof for my own beliefs.  They just are.  THATS the difference between me and my husband - and between you and others who have had religious experience.

      I don't think you should be, in any way, disappointed or jealous. I think one of the atheist's core philosophies is beautiful.  Atheists tend to believe that this life is it.  From the second we born to the second we die is all we have - and that life should be celebrated and lived to the utmost!  If you aren't religious, you just ARENT.  Enjoy your life and live it without regret. cool

      1. Thom Carnes profile image59
        Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Welcome to the Forum! It's nice to have another "freethinker" on board.

        I agree broadly with what you say - certainly that this life is the only one we will ever have.

        But I don't think fundamentalism is the monopoly of the religious: an atheist can be a fundamentalist, too, I think. (Stalin?)

        Fundamentalism is a deadly danger in *any* belief system: philosophical, religious, political. That's why the greatest danger of all is probably not religion itself, but fundamentaism in all its varied and various guises.

        1. Kitchy Wytch profile image60
          Kitchy Wytchposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Oh yes, you're absolutely right.  I should have included a tag like "religious fundamentalists" which is what I was referring to.

          I agree that atheism has it's more "aggressive" proponents, however, I see most atheists with a Richard Dawkins type philosophy.  Intelligent, caring, and good people.  It's a shame that others can't look past an atheists lack of faith and see who they really are.  Same can be said for us pagans in the wider community as people cannot get over the term "pagan", "witch", or "witchcraft" and accept us as good, law abiding humans with a valid belief system.

          Thanks for the welcome! smile

      2. Misha profile image74
        Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks KW (do you have a name btw? I prefer to call people by their names smile)

        I do appreciate what you say - and I pretty much agree to you. I wasn't clear enough in my post, though, and was using words religious and atheist outside of their commonly accepted meanings - which probably confused you. smile

        I am not frustrated about being what I am - but I am frustrated with my failure to experience this feeling of connectedness that guys are talking about. I want to experience it, and I'm working on it for quite some time already - and I still can't get there. This is what is causing frustration... If I understand this correctly, all people are capable of getting there. If I'm not there, I'm doing something that prevents me from getting there - and I don't understand what it is I'm doing or not doing that interferes with the desired output.

        Is it any clearer?

        1. Kitchy Wytch profile image60
          Kitchy Wytchposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Misha wrote:

          Kitchy Wytch wrote:



          My name is Stacy. smile

          Actually you were quite clear to begin with.  I understand your frustration at the lack of experience.  However, I think that experiencing something you don't believe in at your core is a moot exercise.  One has to have faith in order to experience a faith-based phenomena, IMO.  If you don't agree with this, then perhaps the answer is not to try so hard.  Just let things happen.  Join a local paranormal group as a "skeptic" and go on paranormal investigations, etc.  Learning to listen with ALL your senses and not just with your logic will help.

          In my spiritual Path, the connectedness I feel with the universe is inherent, almost.  It all has to do with my world view and how I perceive nature, people, the cosmos, and the spiritual plane.  I believe that to be true with all faiths or belief systems.  It's all about how you see the world and everything in it.

          1. Misha profile image74
            Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Nice to meet you, Stacy smile

            So, basically what you are implying is that in order to get there I should stop trying, right?

            1. Kitchy Wytch profile image60
              Kitchy Wytchposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Well no, not *stop* trying - but not try so hard!  Just try your best to keep an open mind to whatever experiences come your way rather than trying to seek them out.  Try to put your logical reasoning on a back burner and see how your senses perceive things.

              Have you ever attempted guided meditation?

              1. Misha profile image74
                Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                No, never guided meditation. There was a period in my life when I meditated quite regularly for long periods - but this was all by myself. And I don't really do this anymore.

                As for an open mind - I'm definitely trying. I can't say I'm always open-minded - but hey, nobody's perfect smile

                Just take this last weekend - spending it in jail - first day in the crowded room with lots of sensory information - second day practically locked alone in the room, pretty quiet and undisturbed. Does it seem like a very contrasting experience that could possibly trigger something? Well, it didn't... May be because I was expecting it to?

                1. Kitchy Wytch profile image60
                  Kitchy Wytchposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, if you have the ability to meditate for long periods, it could be worth a try to experience a guided meditation.  You can buy CD's for that purpose... or even download them from the internet into an mp3 player.

                  No, I don't think the weekend's experience would necessarily trigger anything.  Nor should you ever *expect* anything.  I can use the old "dating analogy".. you date and date and search and search but never find the one who is right for you.  You decide to just basically throw in the towel.. and before you know it, the right one comes along.

                  Expect nothing - then when something finally happens, it will be more rewarding.

    2. Thom Carnes profile image59
      Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Misha!

      No, I don't personally feel particularly jealous or disappointed - just curious and a trifle befuddled!

      So .... no change there, then!

    3. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Not so Misha. smile

      I tried to explain what atheism is in the other thread and this is an excerpt.

      Atheism is a critique and a denial of the central metaphysical beliefs of systems of salvation involving a belief in God or spiritual beings, but a sophisticated atheist does not simply claim that all such cosmological claims are false but takes it that some are so problematic that, while purporting to be factual, they actually do not succeed in making a coherent factual claim. The claims, in an important sense, do not make sense, and, while believers are under the illusion that there is something intelligible to be believed in, in reality there is not. These seemingly grand cosmological claims are in reality best understood as myths or ideological claims reflecting a confused understanding of their utterers' situation.

      But please don't accuse me of having a religion. smile

      1. Misha profile image74
        Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I can accuse you of being "spiritual" instead, if that suites your beliefs better tongue

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          LOL

          Slightly better smile But still not accurate. big_smile

  41. dojimonster profile image60
    dojimonsterposted 8 years ago

    I know God exist from His creation (the Earth, the moon etc).

    The more one has knowledge, the more one will find God.

    He will find God when he is studying the complicated blood system in a human body.

    He will find God when he figures out that all the planets will collide into each other without a "strange yet powerful power" that dictates the planets to run on their designated course.

    He will also find God when he realizes that there is no way he can created a living thing, even a speck of cell.

    And he will find God when the day comes smile

    1. Kitchy Wytch profile image60
      Kitchy Wytchposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Well, gravity is what causes stars and planets to collide as well as what keeps them on their courses.

      Evolution creates life.

      The human body can be understood with science.  Look at the eye.  Might I suggest reading "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins - or watching the documentary of the same name.

      The fact is, God is easily explained away with logic.  In faith only can one find their own interpretations of the one Source, the entity in the universe that is somehow, someway more powerful and conscious than we.

  42. Thom Carnes profile image59
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    Jenny, Mark - I have been diligently re-reading your previous posts, and trying to get to grips with what you are both (in slightly different ways) talking about.

    Alas, I am still struggling!

    If this elusive, indefinible "connection" you both speak of is outside of sensory experience ....an alteration of consciousness .... something no one can explain to you .... a state of being that you can suddenly "snap into" ...."feels great" .... etc.....etc.... -  then how essentially does it differ from the "faith" of the religious believer?

    And, more to the point perhaps, where's the evidence that this "connection" exists at all???

    If you simply point me towards your (and other people's) personal experiences, how does this differ in substance to what Peter and Sandra and WeddingConsultant (to say nothing of our old chum SprinklerMan) have been repeatedly saying?

    As Misha has already suggested, isn't it just religious faith without the designer/ creator / personal redeemer element?

    OK, I'm sure it isn't - but from my perspective it's not all that easy to spot the difference.

    Still floundering, I'm afraid ....

    1. Kitchy Wytch profile image60
      Kitchy Wytchposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      The question wasn't directed at me, but if you don't mind, I'll give my 2 cents!

      The fact is it isn't, Thom (in my opinion).  My connectedness is based purely on my worldview as I stated in a previous post.  It's entirely possible for one to alter their consciousness.  I meditate and travel to the astral plane, but it is a faith based exercise.  If I didn't believe in it, would I be able to accomplish it?  Doubtfully.

      For instance, I was raised Baptist.  I believed in a 7-day creation myth and believed that the only way to believe was Christianity - especially Baptist.  Why don't I believe THAT anymore?  Well, because I reprogrammed myself.  I reprogrammed how I view the mysteries of life, science, and the universe.  It wasn't, by any means, an easy task.  I could've reprogrammed myself to atheism because I see it's validity.  However, for me, I *need* to believe in something else.

      There is no evidence of outside universal consciousness.  To many of us, it just IS - without evidence.  It is faith and nothing more.    I can't take a phenomena that is scantly understood by science and say - "That's proof!".  No, because one day science will have the information to explain it.

      I enjoy studying Quantum Physics and the mysteries therein.  I find a lot of validity there, though others find none.  It's all about perception!

      1. Misha profile image74
        Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        LOL I was talking about connection between quantum physics and religion on these forums already big_smile Nice to know that I'm not alone in this wink

    2. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I can't answer that Thom. And I can see how it appears the same. Both to you and Misha.  Because of the proliferation of "religions," who have the TRUTH and the ANSWER. Anyone with something to offer is limited. Both by vocabulary and association.

      The connection I feel to the world around me is a more basic, animalistic view. And I have avoided giving you anecdotal evidence. Why? Because it means nothing. I have suggested a book to read. As has Jenny. Not because either of the books (and I have not read the one Jenny suggested) will give you any answers. But they might help you find the correct question.

      And the answer is - 42. LOL

      Which is why I love Douglas Adams.

      If you don't understand the question - the answer means nothing.

    3. Inspirepub profile image87
      Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      No, it's not outside of sensory experience. If anything it is the one time in life when we are 100% present to our sensory experience.



      Well, there are definite measurable physical correlates of being in this state, in terms of brain wave patterns, skin conductivity, breathing and heart rates, etc.



      I'm not pointing you anywhere. You asked a question, which I have answered to the best of my ability.

      In a sense, it is like trying to describe the color blue to someone who has never learned how to open their eyes. Or like trying to describe the phenomenal shift in perspective which occurs when you become a parent, to someone who has never had kids.

      Or even trying to describe what the first six weeks of the baby's life are like - even if it were possible to render it accurately in words, nobody would believe you when you did. You have to live through it to understand what it is like.

      But just because the experience can't readily be transmitted in words, doesn't mean that the experience doesn't occur. Put parents of babies in a room, and they communicate in shorthand - "oh, don't you hate being woken for the third time in an hour ..." "oh, yeah, when you are just dropping off to sleep, how horrible ..." "and then she smiles ..." "I know, you can't stay mad at them can you ..."

      And so on.

      Non-parents can't get it, and will never get it. Unless they become parents.

      Does that mean the experience of parenting is somehow "not real", because it can't be conveyed in words to those who haven't experienced it?

  43. knolyourself profile image62
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    Maybe you need another identity as perspective of the world, not that replaces your race car driver and whatever, cause you love that, but an added one that maybe asks questions and does not answer, but waits for experience that relates.

    1. Thom Carnes profile image59
      Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Eh?

    2. Misha profile image74
      Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Knol, based on the cars mentioned I guess you are talking to me - and this leaves Thom kinda completely confused big_smile
      Not to say it does not leave me confused, too. I appreciate you trying to help, I can't understand what you are suggesting, though... What is about this another identity? Sorry, could you try to re-phrase?

  44. Misha profile image74
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    LOL Mark, you reminded me of SparklingJewel. You both like to use traditional words in not-so-traditional meanings - and then expect everybody to accept and assume this meaning by default. As much as I admire you both - this is just not going to happen smile

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      LOL

      You really need to go back and read what I wrote to Thom smile

    2. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      There is a difference between wordly knowledge and Godly knowledge.  What lives forever is Godly knowledge, and all the knowledge you need to know about God is in your heart. 

      If Mark was trying to tear down the church I would understand and stand with him, but he isn't, instead he is trying to convince people that there is no God with worldly knowledge because it's easy and pleasing and you get instant results in much the same way as christians believe that the sheer acceptance of Jesus as thier savior will instantly qualify them for heaven. 

      There aren't any short cuts when it comes to God, these short cuts heed disasters. 
      Don't like what I said, that's your choice, your life and your understanding.  God isn't easy, but God is easy to Love and when you really love God, God loves you right back. 

      Being able to love something you can't see looks stupid to the person watching on the outside because wordly knowledge that is in the mind says, I can't see it, so she must be crazy, and the ones who see God look right back with Godly knowledge and say, if you only knew.  wink

      1. Mark Knowles profile image59
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Sorry Sandra - The whole notion of God is wrong. God doesn't love me because there is not a God. And loving something you can't see and don't understand is "crazy."

        This is the world. You live in it. I live in it. We all live in it. By all means love the world - or the universe, but don't get confused by what is and what is not.

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          sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          That's funny because I am asking you the same thing.  I fell in love with the world a long time ago, then I fell in love with God.  The difference is that I have seen God, and you haven't.   I never asked to see God, never desired evidence, never gave it a second thought, but God approahed me anyways, why because I didn't need to have to see Him to believe Him. 

          This is your world, not mine.  I just live hear serving people and get nothing in return.  I don't want anything that man can offer me but a smile and a kind word.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I didn't ask anything of you. And I don't recall you asking anything of me. At least not here.

            If you have seen god - you have nothing to fear. No confusion. Everything is clear to you. Yes?

            And, whether you like it or not - we both share the same world big_smile

            1. 0
              sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              nope, I have seen God and have everything to fear.  And just because I am here doesn't make it my world.  We may take up some space in the world together, but we do not share the same world.  God gave us everything freely what man did with it is another story, including God. 

              You think you also have all the answers.  You are no better than anyone else who claims to have the answers.  Which actually makes you very much like a Christain.  No one is going to lift the veil of deception from your eyes, but you are throwing more fuel to the fire. 

              You said yourself there is a better way, but I don't see you doing it.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Sorry - You have lost me. I don't think I have all the answers. The questions - Maybe smile I don't recall ever trying to give anyone an answer other than as I see things. Which does not include a god.

                The only thing I am sure of is you are angry. And if changing the direction of that anger from the bible or the church to me helps - go right ahead. Not sure I have done anything to deserve it but knock yourself out.

                Didn't get the whole veil/fuel thing - sorry. smile

      2. Misha profile image74
        Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Sandy,
        I long suspected Mark speaks out of what you call "godly" knowledge. And now I'm pretty much sure about it. His knowledge differs from yours though - but I don't think this classifies his knowledge as "wordly". You often struggle with words trying to get your message across, too. This is all because you guys are talking about subjects that don't have words associated with them, and you have no choice but to use metaphors...

        My knowledge is definitely "wordly", and that's why among you guys I prefer to listen and ask mostly smile

  45. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Correct. But traditionally - and co-incidentally. This tenth was given to the church or the clergy.

    Usually as a tenth of the produce you could grow.

    As far as I am aware, it has never been used in any other context. I am open to correction though.

  46. Misha profile image74
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    *waiting for Jenny to chime in and put everything in order* big_smile

  47. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    She certainly has a way with words. smile

  48. Kitchy Wytch profile image60
    Kitchy Wytchposted 8 years ago

    I'll just keep saying this:

    It's about perspective.  Period.  No two individuals have the same perspective.  The difference is that some tolerate and ACCEPT others perspectives without having to qualify them.  That's the bottom line.

  49. Misha profile image74
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    Sandy,

    Don't you see you are doing exactly the thing you are accusing Mark of?

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      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Ok, Misha.  But I would never tell anyone that God does not exist.  So if you never see God, don't knock on God's door demanding something from Him that you are already not willing to accept.  There really is no God for one who already believes there is no God.  smile

      1. Misha profile image74
        Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        That's the problem when you talk to Mark. God on his book is a fellow on the cloud deciding whether you go to hell or heaven. Like them picture him in churches. Don't tell me you are going to argue THIS god exists yikes

        What you call God, Mark calls something else - and this is the whole point of your current disagreement with him. smile

        EDIT: Well, I think it is - he thinks differently - see below smile I only want to tell you guys that I love you both, and it hurts me when you are arguing like this. It really is not worth it - on my books smile

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          I don't think so, Misha. Current disagreement based on something else. smile Not sure what exactly, but that's OK smile

    2. SparklingJewel profile image65
      SparklingJewelposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      sandra rinck wrote:
              That's funny because I am asking you the same thing.  I fell in love with the world a long time ago, then I fell in love with God.  The difference is that I have seen God, and you haven't.   I never asked to see God, never desired evidence, never gave it a second thought, but God approahed me anyways, why because I didn't need to have to see Him to believe Him.

              This is your world, not mine.  I just live hear serving people and get nothing in return.  I don't want anything that man can offer me but a smile and a kind word. 

            Mark Knowles wrote:
        I didn't ask anything of you. And I don't recall you asking anything of me. At least not here.

          If you have seen god - you have nothing to fear. No confusion. Everything is clear to you. Yes?

          And, whether you like it or not - we both share the same world big_smile

      sandy wrote:

      nope, I have seen God and have everything to fear.  And just because I am here doesn't make it my world.  We may take up some space in the world together, but we do not share the same world.  God gave us everything freely what man did with it is another story, including God.

      You think you also have all the answers.  You are no better than anyone else who claims to have the answers.  Which actually makes you very much like a Christain.  No one is going to lift the veil of deception from your eyes, but you are throwing more fuel to the fire.

      You said yourself there is a better way, but I don't see you doing it.





      That is the whole point ! big_smile They are at a crossroad, meeting, pausing, consulting, before deciding which way to go, or for Mark, even just to move on.

      IMHO, except Sandy is moving on because she knows there is more to know, she knows wrestling with "demons" within and without,  is a next step.

      Mark seems to like being where he is, likes to feel he knows enough and theres nothing more important to learn. I recognize his deep core fear, but its his choice staying where he is.

      I have hit plateaus, too. I found that pausing too long at that crossroad sets up the human ego for the stagnation and even the fall, again. I have had to retrace  acquired attainment many times. eventually I learned.

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        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        true Jewels.  It is very hard for a person to live in the Spiritual world because it is scary at times.  I think it has to do with the unknown becoming known and when that happens, some chose to ignore it because it is easier to live in the material world and be just like everyone else. 
        The Spirit is only frightening because you don't know how it did it, where it came from, why it came and where it went, and then the hole question about what happens next after death leaves so much more to explore.  In which case I believe that for some it is much easier to say, nothing happens after death, that you become a blank slate.
        I suppose that is why humans developed sacrificial rituals and prayers and such to apeas the God etc...however it seems that this Spirit, or God, or whatever you want to call it has said the same thing since the begining, which is LOVE.

  50. waynet profile image48
    waynetposted 8 years ago

    Because I've seen him, every time I look in a mirror....!?

 
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