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The Christian Religion Causes Conflicts and Division

  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

    It is my contention that the Christian religion (and specifically following Christ) is guaranteed to cause conflict, wars and ill will.

    As proof - I cite the last 1800 years - including the hubpages forums as evidence. Not only are these forums littered with arguments between atheists and believers, they are also littered with arguments between the various Christian factions, Muslims and Christians, tolerant Christians against evangelicals, Christians against pagans, wiccans and any other version of religion.

    No where do I see tolerance of other religions or viewpoints.

    In fact I do not think that is possible when you believe you have the word of god in your head and especially when you think you are saved and have the right to attack other viewpoints as being sinful/wrong/whatever.

    Which makes this a violent, aggressive, confrontational belief system - not loving.

    Prove me wrong.

    1. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "No where do I see tolerance of other religions or viewpoints". Do you include yourself in this behaviour Mark?

      You criticise christians for "attacking other viewpoints" yet in debates with Muslims on the right to draw cartoons of Muhamed, you insist you have the write to attack Islam, (and indeed any other belief system) as exercising your human rights to free speach.

      Your question is a valid one to pose, but I see the thread of double standards in your question.

    2. ilmdamaily profile image91
      ilmdamailyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      It's an interesting argument Mark - and I specifically reserve a similar level of hostility towards nationalism as an ideology, for essentially the same reason.

      I think where we'd diverge though, is in apportioning the blame.

      I blame the atrocities and wars in history on the people that commit the individual acts, as without people, ideologies don't exist. 

      The extent to which any ideology may be culpable in the commission of aggression is very much subjective, and depends entirely on the individual and the circumstance. Some people need a great deal of ideological support to take a human life - for instance, an (honest - ha!) police officer. Others require, and offer, none - for example, a hoodlum. 

      Therefore to seek to blame exclusively any one ideology as inherently violent or aggressive is to overlook the role of individuals and the responsibility they bear in their actions.

      Further, to use the last 1800 years as the "proof" of your argument is methodologically flawed. The validity of any belief goes well beyond a crude "tally" of deaths, as spiderpam shows. Are we to dictate the course of human belief by allowing only those beliefs which fall within the designated body count? Who decides how much blood is acceptable? It's a grotesque and oversimplified approach to understanding belief and the role it plays in the world.

      Moreover, on what basis do you assert that it is appropriate for any entity to interfere with the personal beliefs of anyone, regardless of their palatability?

      If you wish to condemn any ideology for its capacity for "evil" in the world, then you must also take into consideration its capacity for "good." And in this respect, nearly every single religious group in the world excels. There are vastly more orphanages, hospitals, aged care homes, schools, homeless shelters, women's shelters and special needs centres in the world run by religious institutions than there are any other entities.

      I admire humanism as a belief, and respect atheists their right to thier views - but their contribution, or lack thereof, in this respect is glaring.   

      Has religion been responsible for atrocities? Sure - there's been many a believer who's taken a life in the name of God. But to ignore the incaclulable level of good will that is generated globally by religious groupings every year is to live in ignorance.

      To attempt to eliminate ideology as the cause of all of the world's ills is to grab the wrong end of the stick. Is there intolerance and violence in the world? Abso-freaking-lutely. But, as the same 1800 years of history you cite also demonstrate - any ideologiy can be mobilised and manipulated for political ends.

      Lastly, I think we could all agree that forums - anywhere on the internet, not just hubpages - are a poor example harmony in the world. Certainly, if we are to accept that argument as valid, then atheism must be discredited along similar lines due to the manners or behaviour of some here who claim it as thier belief system. 

      If we look for tolerance and wish to find it, the best way is to embody it ourselves. Like the bumper stickers say: be the change you want to see in the world.

      1. Bacall profile image61
        Bacallposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        "Moreover, on what basis do you assert that it is appropriate for any entity to interfere with the personal beliefs of anyone, regardless of their palatability?"

        Your Post is great, but I have to address one of your comments.

        As a homosexual individual that has to hear threats to my life everyday in some "Christian's Sermon" I have the right to interfere in their belief. You see, alot of people that are drawn to the Christian religion are mental patients that are given a platform on which to speak openly about anything on their sometimes very unstable, dangerous minds.

        EXAMPLE:

        "Not only witnessing to the homosexual, but in many cases also being a witness to their children, grandchildren, and perhaps an advocate of the right way to mold the social and moral education of many innocent minds, to any of those who have (as is happening all over) the homosexual agenda blatantly shoved in front of several aspects of their innocent lives. Think about it. It's in our schools, it's shouted in the streets, it emanates from The White House in America, it's being perpetuated into our legal system.There are homosexuals who don't understand, yes. But there are many who DO indeed understand and just don't give a whit.I believe the church has to be careful what witness we show to impressionable children just as much as we should be careful in our witness to the person living in homosexuality"

        SHE CONTINUES:
        "I know two people who are at opposite ends of the spectrum on their reaction to the Word of God. One is convicted by the Spirit for his sin, and therefore has returned to the Lord, praise God!The other refuses to listen to his conscience and demands that his family fully accept his actions and condone them. He knows his family loves him and that God Loves him. Yet he refuses to be a part of either family (his, and God's) and says he will fight politically for the so-called "rights" of gays to be married to each other.If his family fully accepted his lifestyle, he would be bringing his gay lover to his parents' house to sleep with him; he would be saying things in the presence of little ears that should not be said; he would be allowed to further his agenda into a home/family that believes in Godly actions as much as possible.
        Love contains rebuke. Does not the Lord say that as many as He Loves, he chastens and rebukes? I believe so."

        You are right when you are referring to real Christians with Gods love in them, but just like the Muslim religion has to rid itself of the terrorist in their religion, so does the Christians of this world.

        1. ilmdamaily profile image91
          ilmdamailyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          That's a good point Bacall.

          In consideration of that, I would suggest that although in principle we should refrain from interefering in peoples personal beliefs, where those beliefs infringe on the same right of another individual - or their personal safety, then of course, we have an obligation to intervene to prevent harm.

    3. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I would attempt to, if you could provide data to support your claim. I mean 1800 (common Gregorian calendar) years is a long span of history. Could you collect perhaps a century by century summary of such historical events that I can dispute.

      I don't think "hearsay", "or that's just my opinion" fits the mold here, yes, Marcus?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Odd - I thought you were a fan of this.


        http://hubpages.com/forum/post/reply/1027228

        Not so much now huh? wink

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          ??? You are accusing the Christians from your OP, Marcus.
          Same rules apply to you.
          My position remains the same: if you are prosecuting the case against them, where is your evidence -not circumstantial- beyond a reasonable doubt? Present your case against them, through those means and then let the prosecution rest; equally allowing the defense to present their rebuttal. Cross examine vague responses and then let the Hub-jury make the judgment, yes?

          I am neutral so i volunteer for jury duty unless they want me to be their hub-attorney pro bono publico of course. big_smile

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Neutral? So - lying for jeebus is neutral? LOLOLOLOL



            Dear me.

            1. 0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              me? you know better. i am not a christian nor an atheist.
              even if i was, you are still prosecuting the claim/case against them. I have never seen a defendant provide evidence of his innocence -ever, in a court of law.

              so, let's see this case, yes?

          2. LeanMan profile image80
            LeanManposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Just let the children meet behind the bike sheds after school, they will black each others eyes and scream and cry... meanwhile we can go home, enjoy time with our families, eat good food, and enjoy our lives....... Maybe they will grow out of it!!!

            1. 0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              lol lol

            2. Randy Godwin profile image94
              Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              No! Please don't go!  I don't know if we can survive without your input!  LOL!

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Bailiff!

          3. Randy Godwin profile image94
            Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Is God going to testify?  Or is he going to take the fifth and appoint one of his mouthpieces to argue his case?  If he shows up, I think I can be impartial enough to hear the case!

    4. Misha profile image75
      Mishaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      LOL Yeah, but I think you are taking too narrow view. I would generalize that every monotheistic religion fits your description because of built-in intolerance, and many polytheistic religions probably, too...

    5. Jeff Berndt profile image89
      Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "Prove me wrong."

      I'll try....smile

      It's not the religion as a whole that's the problem. It's the behavior of certain followers of the religion.

      I've never gotten angry at someone for thinking that my personal heresy isn't correct according to their lights. When I get upset is when someone tries to tell me that my personal heresy is going to send me to hell and that I must change my beliefs to theirs or else.

      I've never even gotten angry at the folks who tell me that I'm an idiot for believing in Christ.  I recognize that my faith is, well, faith, and it isn't a rational thing. I'm okay with that. Likewise, I'd never try to logically argue that my faith is the right one. Such things don't lend themselves to logical discussions. Besides, my faith works for me, and that's enough. If someone asks, I'll tell them what I believe, and explain why as best I can, but what it all comes down to is faith.

      Does this prove you're wrong? Or do you require more evidence?

      1. 60
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Gosh Jeff, I'm so happy that you're okay with your irrational faith and that it works for you.

        1. Jewels profile image80
          Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Isn't it true that faith has never been rational, and will never be rational. I'm guessing that anyone who has faith in anything is irrational.  That's a given.

          1. 0
            sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            True in the same sense that love is rational.

          2. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            well put.
            I express the reason is simply faith needs no choice.
            Choosing is within the parameters of human consciousness.
            This is also why I express often the lack of need and an emphasis on Grace...

          3. Jeff Berndt profile image89
            Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            "Isn't it true that faith has never been rational, and will never be rational."
            I would agree with that assertion.

            "I'm guessing that anyone who has faith in anything is irrational."
            That's going a little far, I think. Certainly someone who has faith in something that can't be proven (or disproven) is irrational in in that faith, (and this includes me) but that doesn't make them incapable of rational thought in other areas.

            1. Jewels profile image80
              Jewelsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I've overstepped the language there.  People who have faith (at least generalizing here) are not irrational.  It's faith itself that is not rational.

              1. Sharen Hansen profile image60
                Sharen Hansenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Faith  is unrational to people who have no real idea  what it means to fully trust.  Trust takes away the boundaries  of what must be. Why  must people be given an inch only for them to take a mile. That is what I feel about people who judge and condem others,yet they are in the process of doing the same thing. I have recently returned to my Catholic Faith. I agree people are judgmental,because society as a whole has a big mouth. Religion is a form of conscious wrapped with our formative years. Just because people do not agree with homosexuality or cigarettes does that make them irrational?  Get over your self, stop feeling sorry for your self, be rational and accept your choices and others judging can not hurt you.  It is hard but this world is not about  any one person or any one group. I have not judged people for their life choices, but i can not feel sorry for them either.

            2. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
              Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I find this line of discussion fascinating and would never say that any of you should believe the way I do.  I believe that we all have faith in something or someone for meaning in life.  There are as many examples as there are humans.   The only ones without any faith are some who, sadly, commit suicide.  Other suicidal people have an extreme case of depression that they take their own lives.  I know, I had seven years of depression; I never had suicidal thoughts but can understand how some people become suicidal.

              A number of people are rationalists depending on their reasoning powers to arrive at their version of what they call the truth.  Other people depend on the scientific method or experts in one or another field of knowledge.  None of these people knows for absolutely certain that what they accept as the truth is reality.  Instead, they trust in their reasoning, which may be wrong.

              Some people limit the term "faith" to belief in the supernatural, but I think that faith as trust in one's perception of reality is always a leap of faith.  A lot of people depend on or trust in pleasure, work, money, prestige, power, material things, and other people to give them happiness.  Trusting in people for knowledge and security in life is what I would call humanism.   All of these endeavors can be termed faith in the objects of these people's trust.

              Now, to the point, yes, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, cult-leaders, and other spiritual leaders have abused their followers' trust and people whose lives and teachings disagree with them.  Shame on their conduct!   But let's examine the basis of religions rather than people's perversion of the tenets of those faiths.

              In dealing with the Christian faith specifically, there is nothing in the Bible's teachings that makes it intolerant or aggressive.  In fact, Jesus taught us to love our enemies and pray for them.  Paul called believers to keep from revenge.  I think that the anger that we were born with has been misused by some Christians.  Instead, we are to love the sinner but disapprove of sin in order to keep from doing it ourselves.  Jesus described his disciples as witnesses, not aggressive bullies.  Witnesses tell what they believe and have experienced.  They don't have to talk anyone into believing in the mysterious, 3-in-1 God.  The Holy Spirit will change people's hearts; Christians can't.

            3. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
              Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Whether faith is irrational or rational is not my concern.  I believe that everyone has faith or trust or reliance on oneself or others to get meaning out of life.  Some people trust that their reasoning is reliable, whereas their rational meanderings may be very imperfect.  Or they might have faith that the theories, hypotheses, and facts of science or philosophy can be the only reality; whereas they may be wrong about the absence of the supernatural.  Others base their faith on the Bible, which has abundant evidence that God reveals himself there.  All of these ideas are faith in something or someone. 

              I don't believe in dividing faith from non-faith.  A person's trust in his/her rationality may be irrational, because I don't believe that anyone's reasoning is perfect.  Would you folks ever claim that your trust in reason or science is infallible?  If you do, you are claiming to have perfect reasoning.  i am certainly far from perfect. 

              The problem I have with many comments on the forums is that people do not back up their assertions with good reasoning or experiences.  I have challenged many writers to back up and explain their responses, but I haven't seen many substantial replies.  If you see defects in my view of God, point them out with specific Bible passages and reasoning within the biblical arena, because that's where I get my information about Christianity.  I have no desire to talk you folks into accepting my beliefs.

    6. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The truth is to be found in your own statement.  We can not truthfully blame any one of the many different beliefs.

         It is the individuality of thinking that caused all of the pain and strife in the world.

        If you did not have a different belief then you would not protest.  If everyone would just believe as you do; then there wouldn't be any strife.  You have said as much yourself on many ocasions! 
        Until then there will be strive cause you will not quit. And every one has the same rights as you do.
         Diverse opinions seem to make the world go round and round whoop whoop, and over the hills we go.

      1. 60
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I was going to say that I was sorry you "thought" that way about our world, but of course, you have clearly pointed out that "thinking" is the cause of all pain and strife in the world, so I am rather puzzled as to how you came to that conclusion.

        Perhaps, you read it in a book. wink

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          No  ! ... I read it right here in the forums.

        2. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I do not believe that my individual thoughts are a problen.  I think that it is everyone elses including yours.  You can say that and everyone else in the world can say that;   
             And here we are????

      2. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
        Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think that individual thinking is the cause of strife.  I do think that unresolved anger is the cause of wars, religious or not.  I'm afraid that many Muslims have stored up their anger at the so-called "Christian" nations about the Crusades for a millenium.  I believe that we Christians can apologize to Muslims for the horrible travesty of attempts to conquer Palestine then.  However, that observation does in no way justify violent rage by Muslims against present-day Christians, because such rage is irrational.  Emotions are often uncontrolled by reason.  The result is often violence, which is never justified except in clear self-defense.  That's what I believe.

    7. aguasilver profile image86
      aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi Mark,

      Apologies for not replying earlier, but I have a busy schedule since I arrived in Penang and time is at a premium.

      I think the first aspect that needs to be covered is what exactly makes someone a Christian.

      You see there is a vast difference between Christianity i.e. those who accept that Christ is who He said He is, and obey His commandments..... and Churchianity, where folk have tended to develop their own belief systems based upon the tenets of Christ, adapted to suit their own concepts of what's right.

      I would agree with you that Churchianity has indeed been a divisive and contentious force in the world, indeed I recognized this fact after a short while after I came to faith, and separated myself from those who practice Churchianity.

      But what makes a Christian is the fact that they obey, or at least desire to obey, the words that Christ gave us as how we should live, think and behave in this life.

      Now to cover these tenets would probably be a whole hub, if covered in detail, and maybe I will put that hub up when I have the time, but here is a short list of attributes that should be found in Christians:

      Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you (Matt. 5:44).

      Resist not evil: if a man smite thee on one cheek, turn to him the other also (Matt. 5:30-40).

      Avenge not yourselves: rather give place unto wrath: and suffer yourselves to be defrauded (Rom. 12:18, 19).

      If a man take away thy goods, ask them not again (Luke 6:29, 30).

      Agree with your adversary quickly, submitting even to wrong for the sake of peace (Matt. 5:25; 1 Cor. 6:7).

      Labor not to be rich: be ready to every good work, give to those who ask; relieve the afflicted (1 Tim. 6:8; Rom. 12:13; Heb. 13:16; James 1:27).

      Do not your alms before men: Let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth (Matt. 6:1-4).

      Recompense to no man evil for evil: overcome evil with good (Rom. 12:17).

      Bless them that curse you; let no cursing come out of your mouth (Matt. 5:44; Rom. 12:14).

      Render not evil for evil, or railing for railing, but contrariwise, blessing (1 Pet. 3:9).

      Pray for them that despitefully use you and afflict you (Matt. 5:44).

      Grudge not: judge not: complain not: condemn not (James 5:9; Matt. 7:1).

      Put away anger, wrath, bitterness, and all evil speaking (Eph. 4:31; 1 Pet. 2:1).

      Confess your faults one to another (James 5:16).

      Be not conformed to this world: love not the world (Rom. 12:2; 1 John 2:15).

      Deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts. If thy right hand offend thee, cut it off (Titus 2:13; Matt. 5:30).

      Servants, be faithful, even to bad masters (Eph. 6:5-8).

      Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate (Rom. 12:16).

      Owe no man anything (Rom. 13:7,8).

      In case of sin (known or heard of) speak not of it to others, but tell the offending brother of the matter between thee and him alone, with a view to recovery (Matt. 18:15; Gal. 6:1).

      Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart (Matt. 22:37).

      Pray always; pray with brevity and simplicity; pray secretly (Luke 18:1; Matt. 6:7).

      In everything give thanks to God and recognize Him in all your ways (Eph. 5:20; Prov. 3:6).

      As you would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them (Matt. 7:12).

      Take Christ for an example and follow in his steps (1 Pet. 2:21).

      Let Christ dwell in your heart by faith (Eph. 3:17).

      Esteem Christ more highly than all earthly things; yea, than your own life (Luke 14:26).

      Confess Christ freely before men (Luke 12:8).

      Beware lest the cares of life or the allurements of pleasure weaken his hold on your heart (Matt. 24:44).

      Love thy neighbor as thyself (Matt. 22:39).

      Exercise lordship over no one (Matt. 23:11).

      Seek not your own welfare only, nor bear your own burdens merely, but have regard to those of others (Phil. 2:4; Gal. 6:2).

      Let your light shine before men: hold forth the word of life. Do good to all men as ye have opportunity (Matt. 5:16; Phil. 2:16; Gal. 6:10).

      Be blameless and harmless, as the sons of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation (Phil. 2:15).

      Be gentle, meek, kind-hearted, compassionate, merciful, forgiving (2 Tim. 2:24; Titus 2:2; Eph. 4:32).

      Be sober, grave, sincere, temperate (Phil. 4:5; 1 Pet. 1:13; 5:8).

      Speak the truth every man with his neighbor: put away all lying (Eph. 4:25).

      Whatsoever ye do, do it heartily as unto the Lord, and not unto men (Col. 3:23).

      Be watchful, vigilant, brave, joyful, courteous, and strong (1 Cor. 16:13; Phil. 4:4; 1 Thess. 5:6-10).

      Be clothed with humility; be patient toward all (Col. 3:12; Rom. 12:12).

      Follow peace with all men (Heb. 12:14).

      Sympathize in the joys and sorrows of others (Rom. 12:15).

      Follow after whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous, and praiseful (Phil. 4:8).

      Refrain utterly from adultery, fornication, uncleanness, drunkenness, covetousness, wrath, strife, sedition, hatred, emulation, boasting, vainglory, envy, jesting, and foolish talking (Eph. 5:3,4).

      Whatever you do, consider the effect of your action on the honor of God's name among men. Do all to the glory of God (1 Cor. 10:31; 3:17).

      Reckon yourselves dead to all manner of sin. Henceforth live not to yourselves, but to him who died for you, and rose again (Rom. 6-11; 2 Cor. 5:15).

      Be zealous of good works, always abounding in the work of the Lord, wearying not in well doing (Titus 2:14; Gal. 6:9).

      Speak evil of no man (Titus 3:2).

      Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly (Col. 3:16).

      Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt (Col. 3:8; 4:6).

      Obey rules; submit to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake (Titus 3:1).

      Be holy in all manner of conversation (1 Pet. 1:15, 16).

      Give no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully (1 Tim. 5:14).

      Now I make no claim that I or any other believer can or does keep ALL of these commandments, but our desire must be to do so, and I have found that bit by bit, a believer will find themselves empowered to resist stepping outside the lines listed, except by mistake or ignorance.

      i.e. Believers decide to stop breaking the commandments with deliberation or foreknowledge.

      Now logically anybody who starts a war, or deliberately set out to break Christs commands, cannot claim to represent Christ, or legitimately claim the name Christian.

      Would you agree?

      But you and others have stated that if there were a set of rules that would lead all men to unity, you would follow them.

      I put it to you that the above list would achieve that, if we all agreed to obey them and worked at doing so.

      I'm still working at it, but at least I've made a start.

      More as I have time.

      John

      1. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
        Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        John, that's a great "short list" :-)!  I agree with you that we need to practice them.  However, the only way we can even make a beginning is in Christ by the Spirit's power.  Otherwise, progress is unattainable. 

        On the other hand, as a retired pastor looking back at my seven church experiences, there were some Christians who used power unwisely; while in some of my churches, there was a sense of unified humility in serving the 3-in-1 God.  I wouldn't generalize about all churches as "Churchianity."  Some churches are controlled by power-hungry people, while others are not.  There are hypocrites in most churches, but I can't tell the difference.  God will judge.  God sent me to all of those churches as a biblical witness to call them to biblical belief in and practice of the goals that you quote.  God changed a couple of churches because of his Word proclaimed and his Holy Spirit. 

        My take on the church is that if you want to grow spiritually, find a church that is preaching, teaching, and attempting to practice those passages and others as our goals for life in God's power.  Such churches are out there by God's grace.  We grow spiritually together, not apart.

        I ask all of you who are down on the Christian church, what made you so angry at the church that you generalize your anger against the whole church?  I don't believe in generalizing about any group, because such a practice is unfair to sincere, faithful people within that group.

        1. aguasilver profile image86
          aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          HI Bruce,

          Thanks for posting, I personally had a great church that I attended when I lived in Spain, and obviously not ALL churches are involved in Churchianity, but I have visited and seen a few that do get into it, and it grieves the Spirit, whilst giving these forum trolls the ammunition they need to attack Christ.

          It's no matter, because God has hidden His remnant amongst the tares and goats to protect us from the end time warm up!

          Christ's church is literally hidden in mans church, hidden in plain sight.

          There are always Spirit filled believers in any church body, and they are to be considered no better than those who attend more as a social club, and keep a distance.

          I tend to relate to folk who are 'outside the gate' and recognize that many have been burnt by organised religion, but many have simply never been introduced to what Christ commanded, nor taught to obey Him out of their love for Him, not because their leadership and Pastor tells them to do so.

          Unfortunately many of our leaders are too busy running the church, to actually do Christs commandments and teach their flocks.

          But no matter, I read the end of the book, and God wins, and those who belong to Him will be at His side when the final page is turned.

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I agree with everything that you expressed in the post above.
            And it is very much applicable to my philosophy.

              I have never had any ambition to become a writer. I just want to simply expose what I believe is standing behind the fog.  Our beliefs that scripture is a mystery, where the truth will all be revealed at some time in the future is one of our biggest misconceptions.  The Revelation was given to Jesus to give to his servants. And Jesus did that. That means that the Revelation HAS BEEN Revealed. But we can not see it because our efforts to find what is not hidden with our own interpretations has hidden the obvious. 
              It is kinda like , if we drop a coin out in the woods we do not disturb where the leaves are laying until after we look around on top of the leaves for the coin. If we immediately begin looking under the leaves, we in fact burry the coin never to find it.
               Interpreting scripture when it is not necessary does the same thing. It buries the truth and it is never seen again.
                After the coin is buried we then have to take one leaf at a time removing it from the area. We will eventually find the coin if we do not tire from our labor.

                Un interpreting  scripture is the same process. We have to remove the multitudes of interpretations one at a time. And soon the truth will be revealed.
               But where do we start?

            1. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
              Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks, Jeremi.  I believe that we do the best interpretation of the Bible by letting it interpret itself.  We do that kind by interpreting each verse in its context:  chapter, book, and the whole Bible, since I believe that God gave us the whole Bible.  The meanings of words are not our own or the dictionary's but the way the Bible uses those words. 

              Many people, like the cult leader of the cult that I attended when I was a teenager, impose their own reasoning and meanings on the Bible in order to explain away the mysteries that don't stand to their reasoning powers.  However, trust in our reasoning abilities is just as much a leap of faith as trust in the God of the Bible to enable us to interpret the Bible according to the whole Bible. 

              For example, I suggest that you sometime sit down and read the whole Gospel of John in one sitting or a few sittings.  One scholar who did not accept the teaching that God inspired the Bible admitted that John believed that God is three Persons in one God. 

              On the other hand, all spiritual leaders outside of the Christian church, including those of the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as the Jews and Muslims, deny that mysterious truth revealed to John, who was raised as a faithful Jew.  Who could have dreamed or thought up such a God?  No one.  So where did that idea come from?  I believe that God revealed that he is 3-in-1.  No human source is possible, because human minds cannot solve such a unique belief that sets the Bible apart from all other sets of beliefs.

          2. Randy Godwin profile image94
            Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            So if someone disagrees with you they are trolls, huh?  This is about as accurate as anything else you have to say!

          3. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Lord Jesus Come Soon!

          4. 60
            (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Perhaps, all that means is that the earth will finally be left for the rest of us to enjoy while the Christians fly away to their dreamworld. I see that as a win-win.

            1. sooner than later profile image61
              sooner than laterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              how could you clean up your mess?

            2. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
              Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              The problem is, Q, that the Bible says that when Jesus comes again, God''s divine fire will burn off the present earth (2 Peter 3) so that he will create a new universe (Revelation 21:1-5).  Believers will be resurrected as the symbolic New Jerusalem to welcome Jesus back to the new earth, where believers will live forever with the 3-in-1 God.  Sadly, those who have rejected him will be banished from that perfect Paradise.  God doesn't relish that event but grieves over humanity's rebellion.

            3. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
              Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Q, i believe that the Bible says that believers will be given a new, perfect creation in which to live (Revelation 21:1--22:5), but I grieve the very sad teaching that unbelievers will be excluded because of God's right justice (Revelation 21:27), just as God grieved over humanity's unbelief (Genesis 6:5,6) before the flood.

          5. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
            Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Amen, Aquasilver!

    8. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You are guilting of slinging conflict all over also Mark. I cite this post as proof... and alot of your comments in the forums and hubs. You are the pot calling the kettle black.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes.

        Sorry - was that an argument that your religion does not cause conflict or something? I have never really understood the - "It is OK that Christianity causes conflict because some one else does," argument.

        Perhaps it is me? IDK - maybe you could explain how that justifies your hate mongering in the name of Jesus?

        Or even how it proves your religion does not cause conflict?

        1. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
          Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Jesus said for Christians to love their enemies--everyone--and those who don't will answer for their self-centered anger.  Always remember that all Christians are far from perfect, but the difference for true believers is God's grace to be forgiven and to make progress in loving our enemies.  Talk to you folks later.  This has been stimulating.

          1. Cagsil profile image82
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            And, I am sure you were the only one who got anything out of what you said. lol lol

            1. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
              Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I want to know what you didn't understand, Cagsil.  I'm curious.  See my post on "What is the meaning of grace?"

          2. 60
            (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Why then, would Jesus send those to hell who didn't love and worship him, even if he considers those who don't as his enemies? Isn't Jesus contradicting himself if he demands that and then sends others to hell?

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Now this is a good quality of a question worthy of consideration.  Wish I had a good answer ... I'd give it to ya right now.  BUT...  Just off the top of my head I'd say... cause we (Humans) are not supposed to judge any one,   Not our job.
                 
                Maybe Jesus isn't going to condemn any one to burn. He just knows a fire is coming and wants to give us a ride out of here.
                 I’m going to give this question a lot of thought. And get back to ya with something. I hope

              1. 60
                (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                That doesn't answer why Jesus contradicts himself.
                   
                 

                Read your scriptures, Jerami.

            2. 0
              SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              How many times have you read where I or another believer has told you it is by choice that you go to heaven or to hell. The choice is yours to make whether you want to make it or not or believe it or not.

              Just as the Jews wanted Barabbas released who was a thief and a murderer instead of Jesus who did nothing but good. Many choose tomrent over peace.

              1. Internetwriter62 profile image86
                Internetwriter62posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I agree.

              2. 60
                (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                It is a constant threat from believers, SirDent, we hear it all the time. Of course, believers don't understand the concept of a choice, that one must respect choices, not punish them, like your religion and your god does.



                No, they simply choose not to be part of your cult. That is their choice to make, not yours or your gods. That is why your cult only promotes hatred, not choices.

            3. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
              Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Q, I believe that the Bible shows that unbelievers' lack of trust in Jesus sends them to hell.  God never relishes but grieves about their unbelief.  As I said on another response, a perfectly just God cannot tolerate imperfection and must punish it.  He grieves about his creatures' willful rebellion against and alienation from him.  Jesus came, not to judge anyone but to satisfy his Father's justice that must punish humans' rebellion by way of Jesus' perfect life and his death as believers' substitute.  He took on himself God's justice against my many imperfections, because only perfect people will be welcomed into a perfect God's presence.  Then, the power of Jesus' resurrection empowers believers to make progress from imperfection toward perfection (Philippians 3), which they attain only after death.     

              As always, Q, you may believe what you want to believe.

    9. Andy Ramjohn profile image82
      Andy Ramjohnposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      All of this talk and discussion over a very simple answer.  The Christian religion does not cause wars and conflict, per-sae.  People misunderstanding and misinterpreting scripture, most times for their own agenda, cause wars, conflict and violence. Period.

      If you insist that the religion itself is the CAUSE of the misunderstandings and misinterpretations, well then you are trying to make it an impossible arguement..... but I find it hard to believe anyone could be that naive, without a personal agenda or bias of their own, that is wink

      Can you say "devil's advocate much?"

      PS, it is not unlike the Muslim religion as well.  I know many Muslim friends who are very peaceful and giving.  However, within that religion we have the 'extemists' - again, those who have misinterpreted its teachings to suit their own agenda. 

      It comes down to who is being truthful and honest - allowing teachings to change them for the good, rather than twisting the teachings to mean something it was never meant to be.

      Selah

      1. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Since you have no way of knowing if anything in your novel is true, or who wrote the contents, you are one of the people spreading false doctrine and judging others based on someone else's interpretation of the false writings.

        And you don't think this has caused plenty of strife over the centuries?  Who instructs you as to what the Bible really means?  Perhaps you are one of the many here who claim god himself talks to them and tells them the true way.

        Funny though, it seems he tells all of his confidantes a different story or slant on what is right and wrong.  I guess he gets confused sometimes like he did when he flooded the world.  I figure he should have known what would happen after the Eden debacle.  But no, he was sorry he made man even though he knew the end result.  Bullcookies!

        1. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
          Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Randy, you pose any interesting question, how to interpret the Bible.  Suppose for a moment that God guided all of the writers of the Bible to write what he wanted them to write.  If that happened, then the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the rest of the Bible interpret any one passage with the Bible's (God's) own meanings for words and concepts rather than imposing your own reasoning on any part of the Bible.  Churches have disagreed on minor matters of Bible interpretation, but most churches who claim to base their teachings on the Bible as revealing God agree on the basic beliefs.  They include God as three Persons in one God, the Bible as God's Word, Jesus' divine and human natures, and his rescue mission to enable believers to escape God's rightful justice as our Creator-Judge.  The Bible shows that the flood was the sad result of humanity's rebellion against their Creator-Rescuer.

      2. h.a.borcich profile image59
        h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this


          It does seem so simple.
          The NRA says guns don't kill people - people do. In the same rationale. Religion is the same - the people who choose to use religion as a weapon do.
          I was offline most of the weekend. Looks like I missed little.
          Holly

      3. Internetwriter62 profile image86
        Internetwriter62posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Andy you have an excellent point. I agree that is at the heart of the matter.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Defend your faith at all costs! Of course your ridiculous religion causes conflict. You are proving that right now.

          1. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
            Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Mark, how is this discussion conflict?  It seems to me that we are calmly exchanging ideas.  At least, I don't feel any anger toward you or anyone else on this forum.  I'm not defending Christian beliefs; I'm sharing why I believe them.  Take them or leave them; that's up to you.

    10. Andrew0208 profile image60
      Andrew0208posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This thread is a typical example of the same Mark, before you know it, personal attacks and conflicts will be much generated here. You must "Stop" this your unending attack on Christianity on forums! Believing is a choice.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I see - so rather than deal with my statement in some way - you prefer to tell me what I should be doing.

        Sounds familiar. wink

      2. 60
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Christians need to stop their unending attack on humanity, thinking, people, science, etc. etc., first.

        1. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
          Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Do you interpret my responses as attacks, Q?  Is any response an attack?  I share my reasons.  Do you see them as attacks?  You interpret reasons as angry attacks.  Is that so?  Why do you oppose Christian beliefs?  What experiences led you to be so angry?  i want to understand.

    11. sooner than later profile image61
      sooner than laterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I feel we bring people together. It is the underlying agenda of atheism and its religion 'evolution' to be militant and accepting of everything BUT Christianity. All works of the devil. Dawkins sums it up well for the later with his 'call of arms'

    12. ahostagesituation profile image78
      ahostagesituationposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Mark Knowles, you're right.  Christianity does seem to cause division, but it's not Christ's fault, any more than it would be the president's fault if his politics caused people to argue and fight in the street.  It's not the gun, it's the shooter, it's not Christ and what he taught, it's what a person does with it.

      1. Cagsil profile image82
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I would say it is a little bit more complicated than that. It would be helpful if those did practice religious views actually knew what they were talking about when they did open their mouth.

        Just a thought. wink

        1. ahostagesituation profile image78
          ahostagesituationposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Not a bad idea at all, Cagsil. Knowledge is important. Critical even.  But even so, there's a scripture in the new testament that says, "knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."  Certainly, to speak on any topic you should have knowledge, especially with something as important as where you will put your faith.  But this inability to have a general appreciation for each other  is not rooted in anything taught by Christ.  If the lesson is worthwhile, you certainly can't blame the teacher for the actions of the taught.   If the essence of the teaching is hostile then, yes, blame the teacher.

    13. Internetwriter62 profile image86
      Internetwriter62posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Mark, I am a Christian, and there is nothing I can say to prove you wrong or make you believe. I could write till there is no more room on the internet many words of persuasion and you still may choose to not believe despite my best arguments.
      I will give you a Biblical answer, it says in scripture in Matthew 10:34 "Do not think I came to bring peace on earth; I did not come to bring peace, but the sword." This verse means that their will be divisions between those who believe and those who don't believe.
      This brings me to my next point. Believing is not the work of some evangelist or another human being. It is the work of the Holy Spirit. If you are chosen, you will believe, if not, no human argument or persuasion will change your mind.
      Before becoming a Christian, I pretty much felt Christians believed in a lot of things to incredible to even take seriously. I was a very snide teenager and when I was seventeen, a Christian minister came to our school to explain Christianity. Being the snide, know it all I asked him in  a sarcastic tone, "Oh come on, you honestly don't believe in Adam and Eve do you?" The man showed incredible patience and  simply told me that he did.
      I, of course thought he was the idiot of the week, but could never forget his honesty. Confronted by someone like me, he answered humbly and honestly.
      That really made me think.  In college I had some friends who were Christians. One girl in particular often told me she was praying for me. Being a young woman with separated parents, I couldn't help but think. Why should she care about me, I'm just another statistic. You know what her caring enough to pray for me, made me think even more. It touched me.
      I still wasn't a believer, but then back in 1983, without anyone telling me anything, I got this incredible wanting to follow Christ. I soon joined a church and here you have someone who was once snide, doubting and cynical writing this to you, telling you that yes there is a God that goes beyond logic and beyond human argument.
      Who knows, if it is His will, maybe you will be a Christian to.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        And what did the evangelistic tell you about Adam and Eve?  I'm curious because I've yet to hear any believer give anything more than "it's in the Bible, God's inspired words."  And which of the other religions have you been exposed to in the same manner?

    14. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      no one wants to prove you wrong, buddy.
      they want you to prove them right.

      wink

    15. terced ojos profile image72
      terced ojosposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I don't see any double standards at all in what you've said Sir.

      I'm a Christian person and I'm well acquainted with the wayward murderous history of Christianity past, present and future.

      Worldwide Christianity has never been presented in the non-violent, wise as a serpent and as gentle as a dove way that Jesus preached.

      Anomaly's, corruption and willful misinterpretation of scripture abound.

      Any Christian who says different is a fanatic.

      America was founded on a Christian doctrine of manifest destiny and used every means necessary to commit genocide on the indigenous people here in this country.

      Many White Christians hold to this doctrine to this very day.

      You'd be surprised how ignorant most Christians are to their very ugly history and the many attempts to distance themselves from the obvious hypocrisy of the Christian church and all of the denominations that came out of the original church.

      1. Cagsil profile image82
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Most Christians do not live within doctrine, because had they actual and truly stepped through the path of doctrine, then they would understand that there is no god.

        Approximately, 99% of Christians do not understand Jesus, because his work was twisted when Christianity was formed, so that the religious establishment would be able to keep his followers of his work and those who come in the future as well.

        Just a thought. smile

        1. 68
          paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hi friend Cagsil

          I agree with you here.

          Thanks

          I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

    16. 61
      Sue Palmerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi, Mark.

      I won't prove you wrong, because Jesus Christ himself said you were right. In Luke 12:51-53, Jesus says, "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on, there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father; mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother in law." Clearly he understood that following Christ with one's whole heart would indeed cause division between his followers and other people, even members of their immediate family. The reason: the path of Christianity is a narrow one (Matthew 7:14), requiring of its adherents positions that frequently put it at odds with the rest of society. For example, the Bible is clear that homosexuality is a sin. This means a committed Christian is called upon to take that unpopular stance of intolerance toward homosexuality because the Bible declares it to be sin. This is also why committed Christians have zero tolerance for abortion. Abortion is the taking of a human life, in its most indefensible form no less; in any other stage of life it would be called murder. Those who say they have a right to choose when it comes to abortion would never say people have the right to choose to kill each other, once they are outside the womb. While a human being is inside the womb, it is easier to blind ourselves to the "inconvenient truth" (borrowing a phrase from global warming champion Al Gore) that it is still murder, whether we see the actual event or not. Beyond that, though, even more basic truths of Christianity, such as always telling the truth, can pit Christians against the rest of society fairly quickly. Consider what would happen if you always spoke the truth, however kindly, to a close friend rather than "white lying" to "keep the peace"? There are some friends who would regard your rebuke, however well-intentioned or kindly spoken, as "none of your business" and treading on their "rights".  Christianity will always be divisive. Jesus said it would. Living it out will always make it so. But called to live it out, despite the divisions it will always cause, is required of all who seek to walk fully as Christians in this world.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Wow. Thank you. An honest answer.

        Christians find their religion is more important than living in harmony with others and it will always cause wars, division and conflict. I totally agree.

        Disgusting religion. I agree with you 100%. No doubt it will eventually provoke the "final conflict" which many ant-abortionists seem to relish the prospect of. sad

        Quite beyond me why any one would choose to follow such a vile religion.

        But wait - there is another honest answer:



        Hence the contradiction and - as far as I am concerned - proof, yes - proof - that the Christian religion is total garbage and teaches liars. In fact - generations of liars who say they love you but want to tell you how to live your life. For your own good.

        Turn the other cheek but cause division.
        Do not judge but do judge.
        Fight abortion as all killing is wrong - except where it is righteous and necessary. lol

        Meaningless nonsense.

        I hope we get rid of this nonsense before the Christians do provoke that final conflict.

        And to all those arguing and arrogantly proclaiming themselves superior. Dear me.

        I don't care if these so-called "Christians" are following Jesus or not. That makes no difference.

        My point is that the Christian religion causes conflict.

        Pretty much proven I think.

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I am commenting only so I can come back and find this in a bit and to say that truth has been declared in these posts that are worthy of everyone’s consideration!!!   

             BUT....  religion may go a bit too far??,,, but scripture does not tell the Christian to go out into the world and kill sin !!!
             Scripture says to not get caught up in these things that scripture says not to get caught up in.
             Carrie Nation went into bars busting every whisky bottle in the place..  That is wrong.
             I'd like to see her go to a crack house and bust their pipes???  That girl would not have lived long enough to have affected the laws such as prohabition did.

            When we see "SIN"  no one told us to go kill it!   It just said to not get any of it on us.
           
              If Christians could live by this standards ????  More people might want to come join us for a BBQ and a cold bear and not worry about what other people are doing.????

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I agree - but they cannot.

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              THEY  is a mighty big word. 
              Ya realy can't judge a building by the first person coming out the front door.

                 But I do see your point.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Show me one that can. wink

                1. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  The problem today is the same problem that has always existed.  Everyone in this entire world is crazy except for me,     Don't matter who  "ME"  is.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Dodge the question again huh? Seriously - have you ever met a genuine christian?

    17. pilgrimboy profile image82
      pilgrimboyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Those people who caused conflict and division are not following Jesus.  He taught to love our enemy, turn the cheek, go the extra mile, and not to judge.  That is following Jesus.

      What you are using to invalidate the message of Jesus is people who used religion and religious people to bring about their will, not His will.

    18. 59
      exorterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      the meek shall inherit the earth, christians should not argue, what happened to turn the other cheek,  I believe it is in Proverbs, be quick to listen,slow to speek, and slow to wrath

    19. dominicanjoe27 profile image60
      dominicanjoe27posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Christianity is not violent but it does stand to speak God's word.  Paul confronted all types of people and almost was killed many times and the lord saved him.  God is truth and if you can't see that than you are playing for the other team who is on the losing end.  Yes you have to fight all that is evil with God's word that is why christians have to speak to pagans, wiccan and anyone else that practices lies of the devil the truth that Jesus is the only way.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        So - you agree with me then? Christianity is a violent, aggressive, confrontational belief system?

      2. Beelzedad profile image59
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        From the qualifiers of your post, you have contradicted yourself from the get go and have only confirmed true what you've claimed to be false. smile

    20. Adult Content profile image60
      Adult Contentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I tolerate it simply by generally not telling so many people how wrong they are!

    21. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I believe that it is not Christianity who is to blame for any of this. I stand and accuse Satan, the biggest liar, deceiver and murderer, the world has ever known. It is his sole purpose to try through any and all means to corrupt and destroy every Christian he possibly can.

      I refuse to be one of them.

      1. Beelzedad profile image59
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        LOL! Where do you think the concept of Satan came from?

        *hint*

        Christianity? smile

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Wow - I am impressed - he dun "called out" an invisible super being. wink

          I "call out" the christian god instead. Let us see if'n He is Man Enuf to stand here - instead of sending His minions............

      2. Beelzedad profile image59
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Murder statistics according to the bible:

        God = 32 million
        Satan = 8

        wink

    22. sarmack profile image60
      sarmackposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      It is not the Christian religion that causes hate and discontent.  It is the people who profess to be Christian who do not live the Christian life, and do not Follow the Example of Yeshua, who give Christianity a bad name.  Pastors, rabbis, ministers, reverends, priests and so on, who have been given a calling from men, but do not Know the Calling of God or His Son, give Christianity a bad name, also.  A pastor can be the nicest guy in town, but he fails if he has taken that job without the backing of the God whom he professes to Love.  There is no Leadership for him in that position if he was not called to it by God.  If a person has not experienced the Calling of God or Yeshua, and they are different Callings...  you only receive one of them... not "a little of both" as one pastor told me recently... anyway, if a person has not experienced that Calling, they cannot relate to the Christian who is Living and Walking the Christian life.  A major percentage of Christians have be falsely advised and misled to believe that they have been "saved" because they decided to be Christian.  That's not the Way it happens.  It is a combination of the Spiritual event of being Called and the process of transition to the Christian event of re-birth that makes you truly a Christian.  You are not re-born by doing an altar call...
      May God Bless us all with the Truth!

    23. Don W profile image83
      Don Wposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I agree. I also agree that belonging to any group can do the same and it doesn't matter what the group is or what it's about. Someone can be killed for wearing the wrong colour in a certain neighbourhood and therefore belonging to the wrong group. That's related to the nature of humanity as the blue eyed/brown eyed experiment demonstrates.

    24. 59
      exorterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      the true christian will not create conflict, just because some goes to church does not make them a christian

    25. 59
      exorterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      religion does not create conflict, people does

    26. Kimberly Bunch profile image60
      Kimberly Bunchposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You are 100% correct! Thank you for bringing this to the forefront. People need to face that fact!

  2. spiderpam profile image57
    spiderpamposted 6 years ago

    A little even handiness please. 

    Hitler(ardent evolutionist) killed 6 million Jews prior to and during the second World War. Joseph Stalin killed 20 million Soviet citizens between 1929 and 1939 because they were not politically correct. Mao Tse-tung killed 34 to 62 million Chinese during the Chinese civil war of the 1930s and 1940s. Pol Pot the leader of the Marxist regime in Cambodia, Kampuchea, in the 1970s killed over 1.7 million of his own people. These do not include all the people killed in "legitimate" wars. Many would object to this analysis since they could claim that these atrocities were perpetrated by only a few individuals. However, these individuals could not have done anything if they were not backed by others, who agreed with their "values." The vast majority of Germans willingly followed Adolph Hitler and gave their consent to his policy to get rid of the "Jewish problem."

    The atheist claim that religion is the cause of most wars is shown to be false. The history of human warfare shows that less than 7% of all wars have religious causes. If atheists are correct, the most religious industrial nation, the United States of America, should be involved in more religious wars than any other country. However, only the "War on Terror," among all 17 American wars, involves a religious component.


    Murders by Atheists
    Afghanistan 1978th Century–1992 -1,750,000
    Albania 1944–1985 100,000
    Angola 1975–2002 125,000
    Bulgaria 1944–1989 222,000
    China/PRC 1923–2007 76,702,000
    Cuba 1959–1992 73,000
    Czechoslovakia 1948–1968 65,000
    Ethiopia 1974–1991 1,343,610
    France 1793–1794 40,000
    Greece 1946–1949 20,000
    Hungary 1948–1989 27,000
    Kampuchea/Cambodia 1973–1991 2,627,000
    Laos 1975–2007 93,000
    Mongolia 1926–2007 100,000
    Mozambique 1975–1990 118,000
    North Korea 1948–2007 3,163,000
    Poland 1945–1948 1,607,000
    Romania 1948–1987 438,000
    Spain (Republic) 1936–1939 102,000
    U.S.S.R. 1917–1987 61,911,000
    Vietnam 1945–2007 1,670,000
    Yugoslavia 1944–1980 1,072,000

    All men are religious. Atheist/humanist have been shown to be the most violent.
    Your contention is wrong. You’re either willfully ignorant of these facts or are intentionally being deceitful. 

    Sources: The Irrational Atheist: Dissecting the Unholy Trinity of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens  by Vox Day.

    Have a good day. smile

    1. 60
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Did you know that Vox Day is really Theodore Beale, a game designer, science fiction writer and Southern Baptist Christian?

    2. 60
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      On the contrary, it is you who is being intentionally deceitful:

      "All men are religious. Atheist/humanist have been shown to be the most violent."

      1. 61
        Sue Palmerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hi, Q.

        The term "religious", while often thought of to refer to someone who believes in a deity, is more generally defined as an adherent to .any specific system of belief and worship, often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy. This is the sense in which spiderpam is using the term. So she is not being deceitful, merely using the term "religious" in its officially secondary meaning.

        1. 60
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          But, there are many people who do not have a system of belief and worship. Their ethics may have nothing to do with a particular philosophy and are self-administered. I also don't see that secondary meaning as defined by you either in any dictionary.

    3. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Top banana!! smile

      1. Judah's Daughter profile image88
        Judah's Daughterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree!! Top banana!!

    4. nikki1 profile image61
      nikki1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Correction- man is a sinner until they confess their short comings.
      However, its this type of thread that is the most conflict. Its not Christianity doing the destruction it as a whole. Its a mix of unfortunately idiots who doesn't think before their actions. Good Christians think before we act. We fix the mess, unfortunately. hmm

      Well said SpiderPam, though.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Wow - don't you have an extremely high opinion of yourself? LOLOLO

        That is the problem with your religion - you have no moral standards and think too highly of yourself. I see from your comment that you do not even understand your own bible.

        Did you actually go to school?

        1. 61
          Sue Palmerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hi, Mark.

          Just for information's sake, nikki 1 is merely paraphrasing what the Bible says regarding people being sinners, and is not making any reference to her own condition. She did misspeak in one part of her statement, however: Christians never cease to be sinners; they simply have the "wages" or punishment deserved for their sins already paid for by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. He took the capital punishment which our lives lived often in contrariness to what the Bible declares (aka sins) deserve.

          That said, rude commentary toward her position does not increase or bring honor to your own, and should be refrained from at all costs.

      2. 60
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Did you think before you acted here by calling us idiots?

    5. Judah's Daughter profile image88
      Judah's Daughterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You said it, sister!  Mark has no such list to validate his accusations.  He purposely comes to attack every Christian forum posted...yet hypocritically states that Christians start wars?  He's started more 'wars' on the forums than anyone.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you for proving my point, cousin. Never really understood the argument that it is OK wot Kristians dun kilt a lot a peeps, becoz Hitler did? Perhaps you could explain? Thanks.

        I have yet to see anyone make a reasonable argument that the Christian religion does not cause conflict and division.

        1. Judah's Daughter profile image88
          Judah's Daughterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          And you believe Hitler was a Christian?  Shows how 'knowless' you are.  The Bible says in Eph 6:12, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places."  You think Christians struggle with you in the flesh, Mark?  We know better ~ you have spiritual forces of darkness coming against the Light.  It's very clear to those who know the Light and walk in it.

          1. Beelzedad profile image59
            Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Hitler was baptized a Roman Catholic. He attended monastery school and was a cummunicant and alter boy in the Catholic Church, and was later confirmed a "Soldier of Christ" as a young man. He actually wanted to become a priest. All this and more in his book, "Mein Kampf"  smile

            1. 0
              Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              There illustrates the difference between being in or confirmed by a religion, and actually being a Christian.

              1. Beelzedad profile image59
                Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Hitler was confirmed to be a "Soldier of Christ". I think that is far more confirmation than most Christians here could offer. smile

                1. Judah's Daughter profile image88
                  Judah's Daughterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  2 Corinthians 11:14-15 "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.  Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds."

                  Hitler was no more a follower of Christ than Judas; and their ends were the same.

                  1. Beelzedad profile image59
                    Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    So, despite the fact that Hitler himself wrote that book and described his beliefs, YOU have ultimate knowledge of him? Seriously, folks. smile

  3. ediggity profile image59
    ediggityposted 6 years ago

    Everyone please pray for Mark.

    1. KeithTax profile image79
      KeithTaxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What if it works? Then what? More endless debate on God/god/gods? It would certainly be a sight to see Mark on the highest stump expounding drivel...ahhh...the good word.

      My question is this: Why does God or god need you to defend him/her/it? Is G/god/s so weak he needs the help of tiny, puny humans to do his work? Why doesn't god clear all these matters up and become a true leader?

      I am confused. If everyone is so right about G/god, how come the division. Shouldn't God have one simple church? Why Catholics and Protestants? Why not one church only in every town where resources can be pooled for the greatest good of all Gods creation?

      I'll make you a deal: When every Christian agrees on all matters of religion I'll join up. Bet Mark K will, too. You game, Mark? Your immortal soul, Mark, will be saved from eternal damnation if every Christian agrees 100% on all Christian matters?

      You can do the Lord's work by bringing another two souls to Him. All every Christian has to do is agree. Every church murges into one, in full agreement, church.

      I await conversion.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Count me in. smile

      2. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        A believer once asked me what miracle would make me believe in God.

        I told him "If all of the Christians agreed on one belief with the same sins and punishment, I would change my outlook on God.

                Should be simple if God's words are clear.  But no two Christians can seem to agree, so, good luck with that miracle!

      3. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
        Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You misunderstand Christians, KeithTax.  Christians are far from perfect; they are imperfect people like everyone else.  Professing Christians disagree mostly on minor practices and lesser points of Bible interpretation like future events.  All groups who base their beliefs on the Bible as God's Word agree on the basic beliefs that God is 3 Persons, Jesus is the God-man, God inspired the Bible to reveal himself as the Creator and Rescuer through Jesus by the Spirit, and Jesus' life, death, and resurrection as our way to be rescued from our imperfection to be accepted by God.  Therefore, since all professing Christian groups agree on the most important, foundational beliefs, I invite you to join us.

    2. nikki1 profile image61
      nikki1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "God grant Mark peace in his heart and better wisdom. And forgive him for he knows NOT what he is talking about"
      Amen

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Love the passive/aggressive insults - a christian specialty. You are pretty much proving my point. Thanks. lol

      2. 60
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I get the impression they are done with you, Mark, and have left it in the hands of their god to make you one of them.

        Biting? smile

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Not a snowball in hell's chance. lol I would rather poke my eyes out with a stick. I forgive then though - they probably never finished any sort of education program. I pity them. Especially the ones that have gotten desperate enough to pray for me to think the way they do. Like this one. smile

      3. ediggity profile image59
        ediggityposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you nikki.  That is all we can do.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes. I see you need to lie and hide behind a fake user name also.

          Odd that you feel comfortable doing this. Still - most Christians are liars so I suppose that is acceptable behavior. I am certain Jesus would be proud that you are so scared that you need to attack non believers from a fake user name.

          Good for you. Brave. Very brave. Well - for a christian anyway.

          Morals? No. Christians are responsible for so much hatred. sad

          1. ediggity profile image59
            ediggityposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            What are you talking about lie behind my fake user name?  Mark, I know it might be hard for you to believe, but not everyone is trying to pull one over on you.  This is the only user name I have, so i don't know what else to say.  I'm sorry if I offended you, and I hope I didn't make you feel bad.  I'm still praying for you dude.

            1. 68
              paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Hi friend  ediggity

              Please don't mind; our friend Mark is used to blame others for such things; maybe it has now become his second nature; perhaps he cannot change himself; so please fogive him being a good Christian.

              Thanks

              I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

  4. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

    Well - It seems people who believe in the Christian religion cannot understand a simple statement and request.

    I was not asking you for lies about Hitler

    "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

    And I do not see how atheists killing people in any way justifies Christians doing so.

    I made a reasonably simple statement and asked you to prove me wrong. Not show that other groups are just as violent and aggressive as Christians.

    Perhaps they are. Does that make it acceptable for Christians to cause wars and conflict? I don't think so. So - here is my original statement and request:



    Thanks.

    1. spiderpam profile image57
      spiderpamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Q-Definition of Religious-Scrupulously faithful or exact; strict, strong belief.
      I repeat:
      "All men are religious. Atheist/humanist have been shown to be the most violent."

      Mark- "We will wash off the Christian veneer and bring out a religion peculiar to our race" Adolf Hitler

      Hitler was a Roman Catholic and always hated the Jews. He then used the 5000 year old myth of evolution to justify said murderers.

      Before you claim anyone is a Christian ask yourself which teaching of Jesus Christ were they following.? You cry crocodile tears for those slain is the name of “religion” and completely ignore the atrocities of your own brand of religion. No one is justifying anyone, but be a little more evenhanded and use that "logic" you swear you have. Those atheist who killed did so to rid the world of God and Religion and in doing so destroyed themselves. God is NOT the problem sin is.

      1. KeithTax profile image79
        KeithTaxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        So you are saying every religion is wrong and violent?

        5000 year old myth of evolution? Darwin lived 5000 years ago? I thought he lived in the 19th Century. I could be wrong; that might have been Duck Dodgers.

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Not surprizingly, Darwinism has been divided within itself by its own believers. Guess there is something about religion -in any form, equation or sensation- that divides. All the more reason to cast off both and let humans breathe again. Be it 6k, 10k or 5m years ago. Seems humans did just fine before all of them came into play.

          Critical Thinking: Why not let humans, once more, be led by the universe or better be united in the universal direction -in sync with it- instead of trying to lead it and one another off the same cliff.


          PS, Marcus, am still waiting for that deposition of evidence so i can prepare to take on this case as defense attorney.

    2. TMMason profile image74
      TMMasonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Claiming to be a Christian and quoting scripture from the mount doesn't make you a Christian.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Really? What does make you a christian?

  5. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

    ilmdaily - Once again - I am not asking for arguments that other sectors cause wars and ill will. I accept that and agree that nationalism is second only to religion as a useful tool in firing up the unwashed hordes to murder their fellow man.

    My question is directly solely at the Christian religion as causing wars and ill will.

    Perhaps there is an argument that XYZ religion/atheism caused more deaths? I don't know. But - does that exonerate the Christian religion in some way?

    So - if your best argument is - "well - other people cause wars as well..." - what value the Christian religion? It causes wars and conflict as much as - if not more than - any other belief system.

    I guess I find it hard to be tolerant of a belief system that causes this much conflict.

    Or are you just defending it?

    1. Randy Godwin profile image94
      Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hello fellow "Satan Whisperer."  LOL!  Just wondering, is this the thread you started for the debate with Aquasilver?  It seems as if his "helpers" are getting a head start in getting you ready for him.  LOL!

      I don't expect much, though.  Take away their novel quotes and there's not much left to defend themselves with!

    2. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Christianity does not cause wars, but it is used by some as a rallying call, a banner to gather people under to fight wars. Those wars are generaly about taking someone's land or liberty, not about Christianity.

      And don't bother citing the centuries of anticts by the papacy, because you know that those followers of the inquistions for example were not following the teachings of Christ.

      If you had even made a cursory read of the New Testament, you would see that Christianity is a religion focused on edeeming mankind back to God, and is the antithesis of war.

      You have posed this queston in order to stir up controversy because you know that Christianity does not in itself cause war.

      However, if you want to see ill will, take a long hard look in the mirror Mark, because your continual insults of those who follow a religious system show the world something about who you are.

      1. 60
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Nope, Christian wars were most certainly all about Christianity.



        Oh, but they were following the teachings of Christ, and they would have burned you at the stake for saying otherwise.

      2. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        "You have posed this queston in order to stir up controversy because you know that Christianity does not in itself cause war."

        Wrong again DH!  Mark started this thread in agreement with Aquasilver.

      3. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well - that is not really helping.

        I don't see you making an argument that Christianity does not cause wars - I see you stating it, but that is it.

        Not really buying the "Catholicism is not real Christianity so it does not count how many they murdered" argument either.

        I was not aware I was insulting anyone either. Was I "maligning Christ" and  "attacking God" by asking this?

        I have a genuine criticism and request.



        I would appreciate it of you would address that in some way instead of accusing me of insulting you.

        Thanks.

        1. Disappearinghead profile image88
          Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Mark,
          Your history in the forums is what I'm refering to with regards to ill will and insults, so don't play the inocent.

          I restate my point. If you even made a cursory read of the NT, you would see Chrstianity does not cause war. You might well point to theQuran and quote chapter and verse about killing the infidel in Jihad, but you will not find such in the New Testament as this is in oppositon to Christ's teaching.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            So - no argument against my statement then?

            You agree your ridiculous religion causes nothing but conflict and the fact that you have behaved like a total wanker all over the forums is enough to make that point? But now you are pointing the finger at the Muslimsts as being just as bad as you guys?

            Fine with me. Sure - they are as bad as you.

            Not seeing any evidence against my opening statement. None.

            1. Disappearinghead profile image88
              Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              You liike to set yourself up as some superior moral authority, but there you go, personal name calling and insults - just the thing you acuse Christians of.

              Bye bye Mark, your argument is pointless.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                LOLOLOLOL Bye bye then. So - I should not follow your example then?

                ciao

          2. KeithTax profile image79
            KeithTaxposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Jesus said you must "hate" your parents, children and the rest of your family. I think that is in Luke 14.

            Jesus said he came to "divide", not unite.

            The NT is clear and so is Jesus, WAR is the answer to everything until the final days outlined in Revelation.

            Why does God demand this violence and then come to judge? If God is perfect, how could he/she/it create imperfection?

            1. ediggity profile image59
              ediggityposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              It's called free will.  God gives you free will to choose whatever you like.  Society is what forces you to conform.

      4. Internetwriter62 profile image86
        Internetwriter62posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Mark, if you look at scripture you will see that Jesus always taught mercy, right from the beginning. In scripture in Luke 9:51-56 "And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

        52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

        53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

        54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

        55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

        56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village. "

        This is a perfect example of the Jesus teaching the apostles to be merciful in their dealings.
        In the story they are entering the area of Samaria. Most historians know that the Jews and Samaritans had a great deal of enmity among themselves.
        In the story the disciples look for a place to stay in Samaria, but the Samaritans being enemies of the Jews and not knowing who Jesus was, only saw them as a group of Jews that they hated.
        The apostles are upset by their unwelcoming attitude and even want Jesus to punish the Samaritans, by calling fire from heaven.
        Jesus is appalled by their lack of mercy and even rebukes by telling them to be merciful.
        These Samaritans had not rejected Jesus, since they did not know him, they only thought he was another Jewish person.
        In fact when someone did reject Jesus, when he did come to teach and heal and still they wouldn't believe. Jesus would not advice those disciples to take revenge, but to simply shake the the dirt of their sandals and leave that house with a verbal warning, a very serious verbal warning of judgement from God. The warning is as follows:Luke 10:11-12

        11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: not withstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

        12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.

        This means that on judgement day, even places like Sodom and Gomorrah will have a lesser punishment than those who reject Christ.

        The reason Christianity has not brought peace and even Jesus, himself said it wouldn't, is because the world from the beginning has had enmity with those who are believers.

        Ask yourself, why did Cain kill Able? Able simply brought the correct sacrifice. Cain killed him without a cause. Throughout scripture their is example after example of believers being killed or suffering for their faith.

        Even Jesus stated "Blessed are the peace makers" in the Beatitudes.
        Do Christian start wars, I don't think so.

    3. ilmdamaily profile image91
      ilmdamailyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ok, we're getting to the crux of it.

      You are correct, the bad behaviour of one group does not exonerate the worse behaviour of another. I've committed a few logical fallacies here, as has almost everyone else.

      Getting to the absolute, white hot core of your argument:

      "It is my contention that the Christian religion (and specifically following Christ) is guaranteed to cause conflict, wars and ill will."

      Then technically and logically, yes - you are correct. As long as one act of conflict, war, or ill will has been committed in the name of Christianity, then this statement is true. Just as it will be true should we substitute the word Christianity for Islam, Atheism, etc.

      We don't need to scour history to find examples - i'm sure there'll be one.

      However, in conceding that, I do also point out that your statement seems so tightly, and narrowly focused as to be completely hollow in the point that it makes. To attempt to draw some sort of moral parallell out of a criteria so ludicrously fine-tuned seems trite.

      Yes, the "Christian religion (and specifically following Christ) is guaranteed to cause conflict, wars and ill will."...but by this critera, so what?

      Logically, to satisfy your argument an event as simple as a man beating his wife based on some biblical reference is enough to satisfy the criteria you've set.

      My question then, is what moral parallell can you draw from such an argument. Should Christianity be condemned wholesale because one chap was a bit of a c*ck one time?

      Seems a little extreme - I think even the most belligerent anti-religionist would balk at using that as a lgocial basis to terminate an ideology.

      If you wish to draw a sufficiently profound moral parallell out of this argument, then you'll have to expand the critera by which you wish to condemn Christianity.

      Without expanding the scope of your criteria, the point seems to be meaningless, and the implications heavily laboured.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well. I guess the point that I am really making is that Christianity is no better or worse than any other point  of view.

        "It is my contention that the Christian religion (and specifically following Christ) is guaranteed to cause conflict, wars and ill will.

        Then technically and logically, yes - you are correct."

        OK - we agree on this. Christianity is guaranteed to cause conflict, wars and ill will. As is almost any other ideology that does not allow for an alternative viewpoint. So - it ain't the word of a god and it ain't any better than any other belief system.

        Good - On that basis - how do we develop a moral code/ethical guideline/system of government that will not cause this conflict? Because we both agree Christianity does not work.

        1. ilmdamaily profile image91
          ilmdamailyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          "Well. I guess the point that I am really making is that Christianity is no better or worse than any other point  of view."

          We can agree on that:-)

          However, although I concede that the point you make is technically and logically correct, I would not go so far as to say that "Christianity does not work."

          Modern democracies draw thier heritage from a strong Christian influence. Taking as positive the current state of the first world, I would say that - at least in some capacity - Christianity works.

          My problem is that the argument you are basing this assertion on has a truth condition that is calibrated too low. To trigger the proof of your statement requires the existence of a single act of hostility, divorced from scale or importance.

          This is problematic, for to be logically consistent we must also apply a similarly calibrated criteria to every other belief system. Additionally, if we wish to design an ideal system to replace Christianity, it would have to follow this same criteria.

          Now, if we use that as our standard then yes, I am with you 100% - if we can create  moral system that values life as highly as that, then you can sign me up immediately.

          But I am skeptical of our ability to create a moral system as perfect as that.

          Are we on the same page?

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            But - you are arguing against yourself to a certain extent. You have agreed that Christianity is no better or worse than any other ideology;, and then go on to dispute that it "does not work".

            You then agree that most modern democracies draw their heritage from a strong Christian influence, and - I agree - But I am not aware of a period in recent history where they were not embroiled in a war of some kind.

            My own countries (UK and USA) are both involved in wars today, and have been for some time.

            Thus - I put it to you that - Christianity does not work- and only by discarding this can we begin to develop a system that does.

            You up for it?

            1. ilmdamaily profile image91
              ilmdamailyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Hmm, that is interesting.

              I am arguing against myself slightly. I'll gladly concede to being a conflicted individual. Consistency is overrated, anyway:-)

              I admire the drive for something better than what we have now. While i'd still debate the idea of Christianity not being a force for good in the world, I will concede that I think we can do better.

              The fact that much of the first world is embroiled in wars supports this idea, as you highlight. 

              I guess I am to a degree emotionally invested in the idea of Christianity. There are things about it I love: compassion, mercy, charity and hope. But there are also things I dislike: original sin, truckloads of guilt, and the institutionalisation of spirituality.

              My own feelings towards Christianity are sentimentally derived. But, i'm not a Christian - so for me, the attachment is easier to let go of. Though in accepting that we can do better, I do reserve the right to work towards a system which builds in the strengths of Christianity, while omitting the weaknesses.

              So in that sense, let's rock and roll;-)

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                All right - what do you see as the strengths that outweigh the weaknesses?

              2. Disappearinghead profile image88
                Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                So a better moral system than Christianity then. Well you could sit around for years in some sort of United Nations committee to come up with one, but in the end your new moral system will not deal with the fundamental human condition - that of selfishness and looking out for oneself.

                Under your new system, the West will still want the oil of the Middle East, so will go to war or prop up oppresive governments to get it. You will still want your cheap manufactured goods so will turn a blind eye to child labour and Far Eastern sweat shops. You will still want your cucumbers, so will import them from Africa wih no regards to the environmental impacts. You will still want your American Dream, and shout at your president for the termerity to suggest that your poor and disadvantaged should have free health care.

                No your new morality won't work, because it will leave you fundamentally unchanged. Christ said, love your enemies; do to others as you would have them do to you; give to anyone who asks of you; if a man slaps you on the right cheek, offer up the other one as well; etc, etc. Top those humanists and you might have something worth looking at.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Aww - see - I ask a simple question - and you prove you do not follow your ridiculous religion.

                  The day I see you turning the other cheek and loving your enemies is the day I sign up. LOL You are too ignorant to realize - I am doing unto you.

              3. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
                Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I learned by living in two supposedly-Christian nations (USA and Canada) that no system created by humans is perfect--far from it.  We call western nations Christian as some Muslims do, but our human-devised politics and practices are often far from being based squarely on the Bible, which true Christians attempt to do.  I believe that any system that people devise without the God of the Bible will fail in the long run because of total human imperfection that leads invariably to selfishness. 

                Capitalism often leads to greed that loses in the long run; facism and communism often lead to power-grabbing.  Socialism like that in Canada often leads to mediocre services and unrest (many strikes). 

                A system built on the Bible and the God of the Bible, however, is the only one that lasts; I believe that that one will be instituted in a perfect universe some day when Jesus returns.  You folks can believe what you want, but I eagerly await that event.

                1. Cagsil profile image82
                  Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  You'll die before you think it will occur. Reason being- Jesus has died over 2000 years ago and regardless of whether or not you believe he is god or whatever, you're reading too much into the bible.

                  That is your mistake. Jesus' time has already come and gone. wink

                2. 60
                  (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Gods system is one of a murderous despot reign. If you don't love, obey and worship him, you'll die a horrible death and burn for an eternity. And, this is supposed to be a perfect system?



                  Yet, Christians are ultimately selfish, only caring for their own cult members and demonizing everyone else to be sent to hell.   



                  That is exactly one of the reasons why Christianity is so dangerous to humanity and our future. You talk about a system that will end in an Armageddon and you eagerly await it.

        2. NightEmpress profile image59
          NightEmpressposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          With this thread it is proven that Christianism causes conflicts.
          And that's because their strong believe of having heard  God's words and of believing they are the only ones that will be saved. I never understood of what  are they saved. Maybe of themselves ?

          1. Bruce_Leiter profile image60
            Bruce_Leiterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Exactly, NightEmpress!  Christians believe that there is a "viral" disease called sin, which is really human self-centeredness inside of all humans.  We believe that Jesus came from God the Father to rescue humans from their self-made, selfish mess.  Often, people who claim to be Christians cause conflict because all Christians still have that "viral" self-centeredness in them, but God has put a new, loving nature in true believers to wrestle with the selfish nature.  To make that observation is not to excuse Christians' use of anger to attack others but to understand it.  Such conduct is clearly wrong, according to Christians' own book, the Bible.  You can take it for my opinion, but my advice is to judge Christianity by its inspired Book and those who are sincerely trying to put the Bible's principles of love into practice.  Then, you won't condemn all of Christianity.  Like every other group, there is a variety of people who claim to Christians.

    4. brotheryochanan profile image61
      brotheryochananposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The only problem i see here is you and a few others like you. We christians love to debate within ourselves and we invite not one of you raging, angry instigators into the religion forums. Never once did i ever see an invite. Your aggression and lack of proof and lack of niceness is the only agro energy i view.
      If you want to go back 1800 yrs then please do so but leave us to our discussions and keep your anger in your back pocket. The hub you started now is totally hate oriented. You did not prove any of what you said, another blanket statement by mark, yahoo. sad
      Was world war 2 or vietnam about religion? I think not. world war one.. the persian gulf war, nope, the iraq war, nope.. so it would seem to me, an innocent christian just trying to get people saved by the word of god, that the tides or pushes behind the wars are not religion oriented anymore. I know about the catholic crap as do many but in fact they sent their religion with them while actually many of the wars was about money and land aquisitions.

      Your idea of conflict is: Chrtistians start a thread you walk in and say something totally irrelevant and snide. Some of us are pushed to respond then you insult, deflect or twist it somehow and when you are stuck you move on to another thread. I watch your hubbery and nowhere have you ever said one positive word about god and yet you troll the christian forums. What for? You seeking knowledge.. this post doesn't display that. You want to get the christians riled up.. then you are part of this post lol, trying to cause a war. You are indeed a kettle black.

      I am brother john a peaceful christian who has never started a war. Please don't blame me for the oil spill in the gulf, okay mark.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Catholic crap?

        Once again - thank you for proving my point, cousin John.

        1. brotheryochanan profile image61
          brotheryochananposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          hahaha that was so lame mark hahahahaha. You really skunk away fast when beaten huh. lol. When did i become your cousin?? I find that offensive actually, but have a nice day anyway and god bless you smile Hows that for starting a war lol. i noticed you were antagonistic again as usual. give it up you lose this one.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Why is it offensive to call you cousin, cousin? You are certainly not my brother, but I would think we are related some where seeing as we are both human and cousin seems an accurate description - perhaps several times removed, but still......

            Thanks for proving my point - again. wink

            1. brotheryochanan profile image61
              brotheryochananposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              if you said cousin in person i would have laughed but to just proclaim that we are cousins in writing to all the people who read this, I can't with an honest heart allow people to be deceived by this false lineage, and in compliance with telling the truth, sometimes i have to say things that hurt, reprove, and even convict people of their sins, but, honestly why you would call me cousin? i have no idea unless you are subscribing to the adam and eve thing, which it would be hypocritical of you to do so, so i can next surmise you are trying to be pleasant? Although i do not see that in your character at least in the christian forums so my last deduction, is that you are being sarcastic with a touch of deflective. I see lots of sarcasm in your posts!
              thanks for proving my point. i have in no way proven any points of yours.
              My original post stands intact and firm and in your face.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You call yourself brother. You are not my brother - but we certainly are cousins. A whale is my cousin - admittedly further removed than you - but "cousin" is a reasonable term to use.

                Still - "in your face" pretty much sums up your belief system and adequately makes my point.

                Again.

                1. brotheryochanan profile image61
                  brotheryochananposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I will never make your points. You don't actually have any point that you are making. I know so much more about any christian topic than you, you are like a babe in a manger. Now that i see how you define things, be it known, i would never have equated a whale with being your cousin. In fact i do not know what belief would endorse such a statement. If you are going to play silly with me, which you are, then i am done with this post and my original post remains untainted by you inspite of what you say, Christians do not make war, the unsaved, ungodly sinners of this world make war.
                  You prove my point every time.
                  Sorry, if you find one word to try to 'trip out on' but that is some peoples style of discussion. These posts are rich with information but do tell me i typed a word wrong and how could my god have let me do that.
                  I can be emailed if you want a proper discussion without the added worry of 'saving your face' as the Chinese say.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Evolution, cousin. Not interested in a "proper" discussion, thanks. LOL

  6. thisisoli profile image65
    thisisoliposted 6 years ago

    Afghanistan 1978th Century–1992 -1,750,000 - American political wars, not based on religion, though the bush family did like to claim it was backed by God.

    Albania 1944–1985 100,000 - Civil War

    Angola 1975–2002 125,000 - Civil War
    Bulgaria 1944–1989 222,000 - Bulgaria civil war
    China/PRC 1923–2007 76,702,000 - Civil/Independence wars against china (Not religious or atheist)
    Cuba 1959–1992 73,000 Were they not fighting against the US influence here, not religious.
    Czechoslovakia 1948–1968 65,000 - War for Independence
    Ethiopia 1974–1991 1,343,610 - Ethiopian Civil War
    France 1793–1794 40,000 - French Revolution I think - The starving poor against the arrogant rich, who were there by, the grace of god apparently.  At least that is what they used to say before they lost their heads..
    Greece 1946–1949 20,000 - Greek Civil War
    Hungary 1948–1989 27,000 - Civil Wars and numerous Wars for independence from internal states.
    Kampuchea/Cambodia 1973–1991 2,627,000 - Civil War
    Laos 1975–2007 93,000 - Civil War and attempts to remove the communism which had destroyed their economy

    Mongolia 1926–2007 100,000 - Civil war for independence

    Mozambique 1975–1990 118,000 - Civil war, actually had around 900,000 casualties

    North Korea 1948–2007 3,163,000 - Again, big date range here, and again, no Atheist influence based influence.

    Poland 1945–1948 1,607,000 - USSR Expansion, not based on religion.

    Romania 1948–1987 438,000  - Communism based wars - not based on atheist expansion or religious

    Spain (Republic) 1936–1939 102 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              1936–1939 102      end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              1936–1939 102      end_of_the_skype_highlighting,000 - Civil war- no religious or Atheist connotations.

    U.S.S.R. 1917–1987 61,911,000 - Atheist verses Religious (One of the few examples of a country taking action against religion happened in the beginning of 1917, after this however it was Expansion of the Country, not Expansion of Atheism which caused a lot of these deaths, also please remember that there were some pretty big, global, wars during this time (including the end of WW1 and the entirety of WW2, which had losses of between 500,000 and 2,000,000 lives a day during some periods)


    Vietnam 1945–2007 1,670,000 Why the big date range here? Again no religious or atheist reasoning.

    Yugoslavia 1944–1980 1,072,000 again, World War 2 started Yugoslavian conflict in WW2, no religious/atheist involvement.

    While you claim that atheists caused these deaths, the truth is that a lot of these had no religious or atheist factors. Whereas a lot of wars are attributed to Christianity because of their attacks on other religions, atheism was not the cause of civil unrest.

    I guess my point is that just a war, civil or otherwise, is not based on Religion, does not instantly make it an 'atheist' war. indeed the Russian anti-religious campaign is the only real example of Atheists persecuting the religious types, during which there was very little actual death involved compared to the number quoted.

    You are also including a lot of dates which come just after world war 2, Where Hitler (A Christian, despite the churches best attempts to dissuade the fact) managed to cause a whole lot of turmoil and border conflicts. These border conflicts were territorial, not religious or atheist.

    Again, WW2 was not a christian war, however there was no holding back in the persecution of Non Christian denominations.

    To Re-iterate - Religion has caused a lot of conflict because of religious expansion, there has also beena lot of non religious, political expansion, however there have been very few wars based on the spread of Atheism.

    1. spiderpam profile image57
      spiderpamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You can't be serious. You've provided no sources or facts. You’ve  just spouted rescue stories and you hope will stick. They don't.

      Atheist regines of the 20th century included 

      U.S.S.R. 1917-87 killed 61,911,000 
      China (PRC) 1949-87 killed 35,236,000 
      China (Mao Soviets)3 1923-49 killed3,466,000
      Cambodia 1975-79 killed 2,035,000
      Vietnam 1945-87 killed1,670,000 
      Poland 1945-48 killed1,585,000
      Yugoslavia (Tito) 1944-87 killed1,072,000 
      North Korea 1948-87 killed1,663,000
      Russia 1900-17 killed1,066,000

      "What percentage of this democide was due to religious conflict? It turns out that religious democide doesn't even make the top 20 (although I am sure there is some in the "lesser murderers" category. Still, the total religious killings is less than 2%. In fact, the top two killers were specifically atheistic states (which had never existed before in human history). Should atheism be blamed for more than 50% of the atrocities committed during the 20th century? The answer of course is No! If one examines the nature of the regimes that committed these atrocities (even the religious ones), the key factor is absolute power. According to Professor R.J. Rummel, in the 1816-2005 period there were 205 wars between non-democracies, 166 wars between non-democracies and democracies, and 0 wars between democracies"

      If you want to check my sources Here they are.
      STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE.. Calculated from the 20th century democide rate and the population for each century since 30 B.C.
      godandsciencedottorg/ apologetics /atrocities .html

      Read the communist manifesto which was the root of all the wars mentioned in the twentieth century.
      Hitler was a raised a roman catholic who left the church at the after he was rejected from art school. He hated the Jewish people and used evolution to justify his 6 million plus murders. I find it amazing how little you know about history. btw before you call Hitler a Christian ask yourself "What teaching of Jesus Christ was he following?"

      To learn more refer to my hub: Where Godlessness Leads: Evolutionism>Atheism>Humanism>Communism>Dead End

      Get informed, denial does not count as contrary evidence.

      1. Cagsil profile image82
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        roll

      2. 60
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You provided numbers killed and claimed they are due to atheism. That is entirely wrong. You are falsifying information.




        Getting informed does not meaning creating lies.

  7. LeanMan profile image80
    LeanManposted 6 years ago

    People are tribal, they will "hate" anyone not of their tribe.. The tribe can be their country, religion, school, football team, it does not matter... when one tribe confronts another there can be "war".. How many times did kids from your school fight with the kids from the other schools in town??

    Other sad people like to fuel these problems, and start the wars, then sidestep and say it is all down to you.. Hence the postings in the forums.. The more that is written to defend a point of view the more holes that can be picked in it and the bigger the argument becomes...

    However... Just remember one thing here... If you fight with the fool you will be just like him and no one will tell the difference between you..

    So to all the fools out there; enjoy your argument, the rest of us will have fun posting in the fun threads and sleep happy tonight, not frustrated and angry because someone else will not accept our point of view!

  8. Hunting Videos profile image60
    Hunting Videosposted 6 years ago

    Not all that claim to be Christian are Christians when you look at their beliefs and the ways they live.

    What Christ said in the Scriptures is that there is no other way to heaven except through Him. As a Chistian I believe this and discuss this with other when they want to have a discussion on religion.

    In regards to other religions, I may not agree with what they beleive, however, all people need to be treated with respect and love no matter what their religion or belief is.

    1. 60
      (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Too bad religions don't teach that sort of thing. In fact, they frown upon those who don't believe as they do and sometimes are taught to go to great lengths in their pursuit of converting them, perhaps even having to kill them. Their gods go so far as to threaten them with eternal damnation and hellfire.

      Sorry, what was that you said about respecting others beliefs?

    2. USMCwifey09 profile image74
      USMCwifey09posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Well put. Not every one is going to believe the same thing, even so, that certainly doesn't mean that the other person is less intelligent or with out morals simply because they disagree. Respect is key.

      1. 60
        (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        But, what if the religion itself does not respect others and their beliefs? What then?

        1. Hunting Videos profile image60
          Hunting Videosposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          A religion doesn't have to agree with another religions beliefs. It is important not to put down the other person for what they believe.

          Some want everyone to accept all religions and be happy for what they believe. I would want others believing in my beliefs, however, if they choose not to, that is their free will.

          1. 60
            (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Unless of course, the religion itself puts down the beliefs of others and teaches that to it's followers.



            It is their free will to do so, but it is also such that if the belief is rejected, that person is clearly evil and will be sent to an eternity of hellfire.

            It is also such that the religion teaches that it's scriptures are the ultimate word of god and must be obeyed with strict obedience, and those who don't will suffer eternal damnation.

            The religion then teaches it's followers to spread the religion and convert others to the same belief, all the while preaching and threatening eternal hellfire if the sinners don't repent and convert.

            When religions and their followers stop teaching and carrying out these and other hateful acts, then perhaps I might begin to see your point of view.

            1. Hunting Videos profile image60
              Hunting Videosposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              God created all things, therefore, He has the right to Judge and not man. If I beleive the bible is the truth and the inspired word of God, then I believe in all what it says and not the parts that suit my life.
              If I'm wrong about the Bible, then I will be the one accountable when I die as God will judge me.

              1. 60
                (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Come now, you don't honestly think anyone is going to believe you follow the bible to the word. Every believer cherry picks their scriptures to suit their beliefs.



                Just like if you're wrong about Islam, you'll stand in front of Allah and he will judge you, too. So will a rather lengthy lineup of jealous and vindictive gods behind them... and on and on it goes...

                1. Hunting Videos profile image60
                  Hunting Videosposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I didn't say I follow the bible to the word. I said I beleive the bible is the truth.

                  I try to follow the bible in my life, and I do fail many times, but God doesn't expect me to be perfect and that is why we ask for forgiveness when we do fail. How would you know every beleiver cherry picks their scriptures to suit their beliefs? Do you know personally millions upon millions of Christians. You certainly don't know me and others I know who beleive the Bible is the truth and try to follow it.

                  1. 60
                    (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Why don't you follow the bible if you believe it to be the truth? That's called cherry picking to suit your beliefs, something you said you didn't do.



                    Simple, there are verses in the bible that demand you kill your children, your parents, your neighbors and any other stranger that happens to walk by for infractions of gods laws.

                    This is the truth you speak about but don't follow.

  9. Enlydia Listener profile image60
    Enlydia Listenerposted 6 years ago

    Mark, your topic is exactly the reason why I have said in my one hub that I believe that bibles (eventually) will be banned and burned...the reason they will say it must be done is because the bible causes too much division.
    I think you are a very educated person...and it will be caused by educated (and good) people such as yourself....

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I would never advocate burning or banning a book. Any book.

      Education is the answer. Teaching people that religion is divisive nonsense and acknowledging the past would be a good start. But - this is basically what the Christians want. They want conflict; they want to have the bible burned and banned; they want to be just like Jesus and nailed to a cross for being divisive. It i snot good enough that Jesus saved them. They need to be martyred just like him. I will paraphrase the bible:

      1. Go around preaching god's word and telling people what to do
      2. People hate it when you go around spreading god's word telling them what to do (especially when you don't follow it)
      3. People will hate you and there will be conflict

      Bingo! Self fulfilling prophecy, bought to you by the Word of God.

      It is a foul belief system that will bring on the ultimate conflict if it is not careful. (Will it be with the Muslims or will it be with some one else?)

      Burning the bible is not the answer. Rational education and a code of ethics we develop and follow because we believe in them and want to instead of this childish threat that no one really believes is the answer.

  10. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    If all the hate fear and human physical and emotional abuses attributed to the biblical god was a video game, the wowsers who spout this bronze aged nonsense would be first in line to have it banned.

    You and Mark are right. The psychotic entity has been outed by several hubbers here, myself included. ("The biblical god is a psychopath")
    The Quoran and bible are almost identical in spouting hate and fear, they should both be banned! smile

    1. 0
      philip carey 61posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Why can't people just come to their senses and see everything Earnest's way? He's an incorrigible but entertaining nullifidian!

      1. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I don't know about that!  He may possibly be corrigible!  He's a furriner, ya know!

  11. Williamjordan profile image59
    Williamjordanposted 6 years ago

    yes to your question their are conflicts assiocated with christianity,but it takes two too fight.And belfe,faith,love and hatered will all be found and a conflict.You might be correct but why is it allways the christian who's at fault is it because we all want to be right. It seem that you are saying christian have no right to defend their faith,if that be the case do you have the right to defen your point of veiw?

  12. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

    @John,

    So- you think churchianity causes conflicts and then spout churchianity at me. I think that rather makes my point - don't you?

    You cannot have a civil conversation with me because you are too busy quoting scripture and and telling me what I should be doing. I mean - you have not addressed my question in any way. You have listed a bunch of rules from the bible and argued that if we all signed up and became genuine Christians there would be no conflict - which I think is not practical. This causes conflict and persuades me that all you really want to do is spread your religion.

    I do agree that if we followed selected verses in the bible - there would be no conflict. But - and this is an enormous but - there is a way of getting people to do things without conflict - spouting rules and then behaving in ways that do not conform to said rules is not it.

    I have never ever once seen you - or any of the other religionists:



    This thread being a perfect example.

    So - because none of you self proclaimed Christians actually follow your rules - spouting them at me is utterly useless and is guaranteed to cause conflict.

    I mean - how funny is it that on this thread - one of the tenets you claim to live by is "agree with your adversary quickly"? lol

    So - by your own words - "logically anybody who .....  deliberately set out to break Christs commands, cannot claim to represent Christ, or legitimately claim the name Christian," you are not a christian either.

    But - clearly - christianity causes conflicts because - once again - a self professed christian (you) is laying down the law and not following it.

    I tell you John - if I saw self proclaimed christians wandering around loving their enemies and agreeing with them for the sake of peace - I could be persuaded the Christian religion is the best thing ever.

    So - what is the problem? How is this a good thing if you cannot even follow a simple command like this? wink

    You think a stated desire to follow the rules which you then do not follow combined with an even bigger desire to tell other people to follow them is a good religion?

    Because I am not getting it.

    Personally - I think the problem is the god thing. None of you genuinely believe in it - so the whole thing falls down. If you really feared God's judgment - you would follow your rules. But - you do not. In fact - you do not even make the effort.

    I think I can reasonably conclude that none of you actually believe - you just like telling other people what they should be doing. wink

    1. aguasilver profile image86
      aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Where have I 'spouted churchianity' to you, my response (not reaction you will note) was to outline what Christ actually tells us is the way we should behave.

      It has been apparent to me from the first time I entered the forums, that you and certain others have a real phobia about accepting what Christ commands, mainly I suspect because it challenges your desire to maintain self rule.



      I have not told you what I think you should be doing, I have told you what Christ suggests we ALL do if we wish to end division and conflict, and if you read the commands He gave us, there are NONE that would allow those who obeyed them to cause division and conflict.

      Conflict would only occur amongst those who chose to ignore His commands.



      Why not? can you find anything in what Christ tells us, from the list I posted, that is not practical?

      I agree that all folk, believers or not, will not be able to stay 100% in obedience, for we are all human and flawed in that respect, but deciding to obey Christ will gradually reduce our disobedience and lead us to become more 'Christlike' - i.e. better able to resist the pressures and laxity that causes us to disobey.

      I suspect that for most folk, the problem with accepting Christ is the fact that obedience is required, to be desired by the follower and striven to achieve.

      Day by day (pick up your cross daily) we are required to review our thoughts, deeds, words and actions, and where we have been disobedient, to confess those faults to God and ask forgiveness, in order that we may stand firmer the next time we are tested by the world.

      It's a slow process, especially for someone like me who was a very disobedient person before I came to faith, and is only slowly managing to submit more of my life daily to obedience in Christ.

      My son on the other hand, who came to faith at 19, had a lot less disobedience to work out of his system, and can walk a straighter walk than I can after only two years in faith.




      Not true, I cannot spread any religion, only the Holy Spirit is used to draw folk out of disobedience into relationship and obedience to Christ's commands.

      I can (and do) make observations which may convict people of their error, and sometimes that process will cause conflict with the recipient, because it draws their attention to their own incongruities and disobedience.

      When a man has made himself his own god, it's always difficult for him to have his sovereignty challenged, so no wonder that he will see any challenge as conflict, because that challenge does conflict with his own concept of godhood and self determination.



      Let me know if you ever manage to get any group of non believers to even attempt, let alone agree to follow even selected commands from Christ, and even there, you want to cherry pick which commands you will attempt to follow.

      There is your conflict, you recognize that what Christ tells us is correct, but decline to accept His whole teaching, wanting to exclude any which you find onerous.

      That's why the world hates Christ, it's the fact that He is stating clearly that we need to at least wish to obey God 100%, with no self justification about why we ignore the whole in favour of the parts we like.



      Mark, we are in a forum, it's hardly a playground, and debate is what we do here.

      I do leave the field when the opposition gets too foolish, or when I see no possible hope that others will see what to believers is obvious.

      I doubt very much that Christ meant that I needed to submit to forum puppets that call God a 'non existent invisible friend' - do you really think I should just say, 'You're right, the main relationship in my life is as you say' in order to placate those who use such verbiage, when I know from personal experience that they are not only being flippant, but totally mistaken?

      Let me state that we believers have no desire to even communicate with those who have rejected Christ, and we do NOT go seeking you out, it's the reverse, unbelievers constantly harass any believer that posts in the:

      Religion & Beliefs - Christianity - Christian Living forum

      What reason would there be for that, if not to seek conflict and division?

      If you guys all hate what we believe so much, why do you seek to disrupt any thread that we start, and send posse's of non believers in unison to make inane remarks?

      I imagine you have a non believers forum section somewhere, but would never seek to enter that arena to challenge your non belief.

      Why do you not simply ignore our section?



      I am surprised that you would try to say that; because we believers are not perfect, you would refuse to show us how it should be done, then blame us for your continued harassment in some vain attempt to excuse your own disobedience and lack of desire to even start obeying those rules, which we seem to agree would lead to no conflict IF folk WOULD obey them!

      You are not my adversary, I do not consider you an enemy, purely someone who seeks to goad believers whenever he can, and a man who has a fine command of English, which assists you in your derogation.

      I would wager that should we find ourselves having a drink together, we would get on well and hold a perfectly civil conversation.

      Your one on one with Holly told me the probable reason why you reject God, and I can understand why one would if they lost a loved one, for in that situation everyone either gets closer to God, or rejects Him.

      I am sorry that you suffered such a loss, and rejected God, our mutual enemy is Satan, who does seek to cause conflict and division.

      I wish that you had chosen God instead or rejecting Him, you would be a powerful man of God if you had.

      ...and you may have been able to show us weaker believers how it should be done!




      Mark, the key word there is 'deliberately' and I assure you that I do not deliberately set out to disobey Christ, in fact I deliberately seek to obey Him, but like I have said, I'm in no way perfect, but I do know that MOST of the time my actions, thoughts, deeds and words are guided by His commands, and at least I'm trying.

      There is also the fact that when believers recognize their errors and disobedience, they confess them 'one to another' and ask God to take authority in those areas of disobedience, which normally means that bit by bit, the errors get less frequent.

      Christ is NOT the accuser of the brethren, that is Satan's job and indeed his title.



      I'm pleased to hear that, (I could be persuaded the Christian religion is the best thing ever) because maybe having 'spoken' that authority, you will be more reachable to the Holy Spirit, I will certainly pray that you are.

      You have picked on ONE command out of 41 with which to try to prove that all Christians are in error.

      I would say that even if one is not capable of applying ALL the commands to our lives, it's better to suggest that other, perhaps more capable, should also have at least an attempt at obeying them.

      I don't tell people to obey my rules, I point them towards the commands that Christ told us, each individual must decide for themselves whether that will even start trying to solve problems by obeying Christ.



      Wrong, most believers do make an effort, they just fail on occasion, but like I said, less often with time and obedience.

      As to not really fearing Gods judgement, well what can I say, we escaped His judgement over our errors, when we recognized our rebellion against Him and accepted His intercession on ALL humanities behalf at Golgotha.

      We will be judged, but not in the way you suggest, the judgement you refer to is where one has rejected Gods grace and mercy and deliberately continued in disobedience to His commands in preference to your own self will.

      The only thing believers should be telling other folk, is that God has provided a way for them to find peace and redemption, however when someone has no idea that they can find peace, nor that they need redemption, it will obviously cause them to enter into conflict with believers.

      When I left the UK to live in Spain, having sold my central London estate agency to a public company, most of my secular friends (I was a secular non believer myself then) distanced themselves from me because, in their eyes, I was 'escaping' what they were stuck with.

      In many ways it is the same with believers and non believers, for non believers seem to hate the fact that we believers have escaped this worlds clutches, and have the temerity to be happy about it, and recommend that others follow.

      One thing I can assure you, I know that I have 100% belief in Christ and God, and my relationship with Him, and if that offends you, I am sorry, but no amount of heel biting will change that.

  13. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    blame blame blame blame blame....yeah. accountability anyone?

  14. Enlydia Listener profile image60
    Enlydia Listenerposted 6 years ago

    Earnest....thank you for supposedly agreeing with me...actually I was not saying that I believe that the Bible should be banned....but rather that I sense it will be banned and burned....and the people who will do it, will be people such as yourself...I wrote this in my "Thoughts on the Future"...if you want you can come over and ridicule me...you will probably find many of my other hubs just as offensive.

  15. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    Gotta blame it on something
    Gotta blame it on something

    Blame it on the rain,yeah
    Blame it on the stars that shines at night

    Blame it on the rain yeah yeah
    whatever you do, don't put the blame on you.

    Blame it on the rain, yeah yeah.

    You can blame it on the rain because the rain don't mind

    Gotta blame it on something

  16. aka-dj profile image79
    aka-djposted 6 years ago

    Pardon my bluntness (or not, I don't care). but this is a stupid and provacative thread (see title).

    Remove "Christian Religion" (hypothetically) from human history, and you WILL NOT have removed conflict, hatred, ill will nor wars.

    What our illustrious and learned OP friend keeps missing/ignoring is the simple fact that it is the (wicked) human condition that is at fault. He/she can use religion, greed, jealousy, fear, revenge etc (ad infinitum) as a motivating force or justification tocarry out any of the said troubles. Be it wars, killing or whatever.

    Just by posting the thread shows up the selfsame human condition that he so vehemently rejects (more conflict...verbal, that is). Don't like the "religion forum", STAY OUT. But oh no, we will keep coming back for more.

    I guess the attention it gets feeds the ego.hmm

  17. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

    Thank you for proving my point John.

    You do not know me, nor my reasons for rejecting your ridiculous beliefs. I do not welcome your condescending assumption either.

    You yourself have proclaimed that I am your adversary - many times. You call me "Satan whisperer."

    Yet you cannot follow a simple command from Jesus - can you? wink

    "Conflict would only occur amongst those who chose to ignore His commands."

    This pretty much sums it up. As I tried to explain - Commanding me to follow whilst not doing so yourself is not going to work, and causes conflict.

    Thanks for validating everything I said.

    I mean - you have once aging not addressed my statement- merely tried to persuade me that you are better than I and convince me that the conflict is being caused by me not doing as you tell me I should be doing. Dear me.

    You also broke our agreement. You promised I was going to be speaking to you - now you are telling me that you are just passing on the message and are actually speaking for someone else.



    Sorry John. I cannot have a civil conversation with you if you are not prepared to admit I am speaking to you and you are speaking for yourself - not an invisible friend.

    I have tried to explain that you are being offensive when you do this and say things like:


    I am not heel biting. I am expressing an opinion - which you have just validated.

    1. aguasilver profile image86
      aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You are of course entitled to your opinion, sorry that you cannot continue our discussion.

      For the record, you have also not addressed any of my points.

      Anyhow, back to ignoring your remarks and only bothering to reply to believers..

      Have fun....

      John

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I have addressed your point John.

        You have only really made one point. And - as I keep telling you - instructing me as to how I should be behaving while not doing so yourself is guaranteed to cause conflict. Yes - I get that you want to tell me how to behave. I understand that - that is not in question. And some of the rules you tell me I should follow are good.

        My point is - that this behavior (religion) causes conflict and all you have done is argue that the rules you propose are good ones and the conflicts come from me not following them.

        1. aguasilver profile image86
          aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          That is precisely my point, not that you personally are responsible for conflict, but that secular humanity not following the commands of Christ is responsible.

          How you choose to live your life is NONE of anyone else's business, and I don't presume that you should follow the commands of Christ, nor tell you that you should, but please don't attempt to say that it's Christians who are invading your Atheist forum areas causing conflict, because it's not true.

          I would hazard a guess that most believers would be quite content if you never posted another taunt at what we discuss, it's a bit like me entering a cookery forum and discussing motor mechanics.

          Off to bed now, another 5am start.

          john

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Please do not speak to me as though I am an idiot, John. This has nothing to do with you invading atheist forums. This is a public forum to discuss beliefs.

            And here you are again, proving my point. First you tell me that the problem is secular humanity (me) not following what you tell me.

            Then you tell me you are not telling me what I should do. wink

            Sweet dreams.

            1. aguasilver profile image86
              aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              "This is a public forum to discuss beliefs."

              Beliefs,what are your beliefs, certainly not Christian, so why post in a Christian forum, apart from a desire to stifle Christian discussion?

              Correction "...you tell me that the problem is secular humanity (me) not following what you tell me."

              Not what I tell you, what Christ tells us... BTW what parts of what Christ tells us do you consider wrong to follow?

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                John - I don't appreciate you lying about me. We agreed we would discuss this matter here and I posted the thread to do that.

                I see you have reverted to not accepting responsibility and saying it is some one else that you are speaking for. As I told you - I find this frustrating and do not feel able to have a civil conversation with you if you will not accept responsibility for your words and actions. I am not speaking to Jesus - if he existed - he is long dead. I am speaking to you.

                1. aguasilver profile image86
                  aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Here is what I initially told you were my 'guidelines' and I assume I am as entitled as you to lay guidelines for discussion.

                  "Mark,

                  I don't pretend that God is telling me to say things, but when I crossed over I dropped divination and it was replaced with discernment and words of knowledge.

                  That may have no essential meaning to you, but I understand it, and so would any Holy Spirit filled believer.

                  But for the purposes of any discussion we have, I accept that you wish to believe that I am only speaking my own words, so we can agree that.

                  I can also agree that you are speaking solely to me, but I do know that our discussion is also comprehended by spiritual forces that you deny exist.

                  As you deny their existence, it's a moot point, for you cannot object to what you deny exists hearing what we discuss, as obviously in your opinion they would not be able to hear or interject in the discussion.

                  "I would love to discuss how divisive and conflict inducing your religion is."

                  No problem with that discussion, though obviously, as it would involve me using scripture to present my point, you may have a problem with it."


                  It appears you did have a problem with it.

                  It appears that our problem is Christ, an integral part of my life, a suspected never to exist part of yours.

                  I cannot see how those factors can be resolved, as I cannot pretend He does not exist (Yes He did die on the cross, Yes He still lives today, go figure) and you cannot accept that He does.

                  John

  18. donotfear profile image90
    donotfearposted 6 years ago

    "Stop bickering....this instant!"

    http://thevinylvillage.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/church_lady.jpg

    1. Internetwriter62 profile image86
      Internetwriter62posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Good one donotfear, I like the photo, it's hilarious.

  19. deepthinker76 profile image59
    deepthinker76posted 6 years ago

    Im new here so Im not sure that this is posted in the right place.

         I can see where you can get that idea about Christianity but you make no mention of the other religions that became a religion because of killing and making people follow it. Do you know your religious histories or did you choose Christianity to blast on? Some religions were made religions because the people of an area needed protecing from neighboring countries so they said "we will follow your religion if you kill these people and protect us (in a nutshell)" lol.... And just because a person says that he or she is a christian, well that dont make them one. Right? I mean if I say I am a purple butterfly ...does that make me one? I say NO!

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      How is that relevant? I am not talking about Christians - I am talking about the Christian religion. What difference does it make if other religions are violent? Does that excuse your religion? But - If you can show me a few members of a competing religion that has not been wiped out by you guys and is just as violent - I will level the same criticism at them.

      One irrational belief system is much like another as far as I am concerned, so I could as easily aimed it at any of the other ones.

  20. Daniel Carter profile image91
    Daniel Carterposted 6 years ago

    Our thinking is most often the cause of our suffering. I'm learning the more I examine my own belief systems of the "shoulds" and "should nots" the more I understand that 20 years of constant abuse was just 20 years. The other remaining 34 years of my life were my thoughts and reliving it. That's incredibly sick. My belief that people should not be abused, that we should love wasn't real. My belief that abuse should stop was a lie because I continued to re-abuse myself with my thoughts about it for an additional 34 years.

    Now take that scenario and apply it however you want in your life--religion, no religion--whatever you want, and you begin the examination process of finding truth. When you are willing to really look at your truth fearlessly, you liberate yourself from your suffering, and therefore, cause no suffering in others.

    Applying this to religious beliefs and non-religious beliefs has the same power of understanding peace. When and if we become willing to examine our belief systems, regardless of what they are, we are willing to find our truth. That is the only peace that there is, and until we are willing to fearlessly examine our beliefs and find truth, the world will remain in unrest, blame, denial, war, and far worse.

    1. h.a.borcich profile image59
      h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago in reply to this



      I am sorry that you have been through so much.
      I could not agree with you more on personal truth! It takes courage to really sift through life experiences, beliefs and suffering to honestly face your own personal truths. Only when we get naked and comfortable with that truth will we find inner peace. I did smile

  21. 59
    Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago

    What do you mean by 'prove'? Mark, you use this term as if its possible to prove anything subjective in nature. No one can prove or disprove any opinion that has been posted here. However, one may provide arguments that support an alternate conclusion. I feel this is an important issue, this notion of proof, that needs some thought.
      While I am an athiest, I would never use such terms as 'prove me wrong' in a debate about religion. This seems to insist that one can be proven right. Now if you can be proven right why dont you present the case that would surely do so and eliminate religion alltogether?
      On the issue at hand, I cannot prove you wrong, however, that is how I feel. Christianity, as all monotheistic religions, fosters a certain intolerance toward other beliefs. This most can agree on, even believers - if they dont, they dont understand their own religion well. However, there exists a disparity in wealth and well being in the world, and it is in favor of those of us who have been born in a christian nation. Simply look at the other nation and compare to their quality of life. What would have been in store for us had those evil christians not taken over the Roman Empire? What would your life be like, Mark, if you had been born in a muslim country? What, comparing christianity with islam? Well yes I am.
       Afterall, these are the only monotheistic religions with hundreds of millions of followers. While I understand that you have a problem when people compare christianity to other religions, however, there is a valid point to be made here. You imply the christain religion can only foster conflict, the counter to this is that it may redeem itself by causing less harm than an inevitable aternative outcome. Europe was going to be overrun by one faith or another, this we must accept, I would argue that christianitys victory in europe has provided for a much better world, at least for me. This is due to the major difference between christianity and islam. The difference is that Jesus himself proclaimed that one should render under Ceasar what is Ceasars and render unto God what is Gods. This establishes a general separation of church and state that Islam would never allow. Surely this separation has been maintained, albeit loosley, for 1800 years. Now I know that the Catholic church didnt comply with this much, but the truth is that the political leaders of Europe did as they willed and only used the church when it suited them. The church was indeed powerful from the 5th to the 16th centuries, however it did not dictate what the rulers ultimatley did. This being said christianity itself has inspired much bloodshed. But the faith has been evloving since its conception due to this acceptance that the state and the church are not doctrinally married, as in islam. The dark age is blamed on christianity, perhaps rightly, however, the Enlightenment could only have happened in the christian world. This has been due to the separation of what is Gods and what is Ceasars. Christianity has evloved into what we have today.
       Surely we can agree on the improvements in civilization in the christian world over the last two centuries. Democracy, equality and toleration. The christians acceptance of the secular is what has made these possible. It is Islams rejection of the secular that has kept the muslim world virtually in the dark ages in the area of human rights. christianity, with all of its superstitious faults, at least leaves open the door for improvement. This is its one redeeming quality. For we must recognise Mark that if not for christianity, Islam with its doctrinal demand for blood would have taken over Europe.
      There are those cosmopolitans out ther would say they see no problem with this. I urge you to go to a Muslim country and spend some time, real time, and imagine that kind of existance for you- away from those christians. Islam is no more irrational than christianity , but it lacks this one redeeming factor. This may not 'prove' you wrong Mark, however you must admit that living in a christian world is more agreeable than what would have been they only alternative. In this respect christianity may have done more good than harm, and that is a good enough counter to your argument for me to accept all that comes with the faith and its believers. If you disagree, well honestly I will pay for you to move to Iran for the rest of your days - anyone.

  22. Rudra profile image59
    Rudraposted 6 years ago

    There should only be one religion. Making money.

  23. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    Myth is not a lie, it's a metaphor.

    A metaphor for something that cannot be expressed in ordinary language because it is not understood by the senses. Myth is the language of human consciousness and emotion.

    To see myth as history is folly. Magical characters do not exist in the external world. They exist in the mind. But then, does that mean it's not real? It's real. It is very real. As a matter of fact, it is so real it is affecting the external world as we speak.

    myth is true but it is not fact.

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ceci, you know you are banging against the dull, right?
      Just suppose for a moment, they actually 'got' your meaning. Unequivocally, their rebuttals will be nothing more than mortium, all-inclusive vacancies, which pretend but refill an otherwise debunk existence. They cannot 'help' themselves but regurgitate the futile silence of their experience, fore or against the volumes upon volumes of notions they themselves handpicked out of their own sniffling, nostril-like consciousness.

      It is fairly safe to establish the limited use of their own designed condition, but even more so is a lack of respect for that condition they themselves designed and attempt to prevail in. Let's not justify any more than they want you to, for now.
      The zoo has to close from time to time.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image94
        Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Wow, 21!  Why are you wasting your time here on this little site when you are obviously overqualified to be dealing with us "dull" "zoo residents"?  We cant reed ur big wurds an r 2 stoopid 2 unnerstand ur grate wizdumb.  LOL!

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          trust me, it is not about that. no superiority complex is going on. its about knowing when to just allow people to not get it.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image94
            Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            But first you have to be able to know they don't "get it" to begin with!  LOL!

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I always find it really, really funny that the religionists and woo woo lala think that if you do not agree with their nonsense - you must not understand what they said.

              This is why the Christian religion always causes conflict. You don't agree? Then you are just too stupid and close minded to understand. wink

              Thankfully they have stopped burning people at the stake.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, but they still remember it fondly!

              2. ceciliabeltran profile image86
                ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                calling established scientific theories and biological fact woowoolala and nonsense is a definite cue that someone does not get it.

                the program does not exist. cannot read mac software.

            2. ceciliabeltran profile image86
              ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              you can not get it and not be inferior. case in point, mark knowles. he does not get it, will never get it, don't expect him to get it. yeah. do i think he's inferior. no. different programs.

              1. Randy Godwin profile image94
                Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                How was your soup, myth Beltran?

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  it was too salty
                  http://www.flixxy.com/zhang-ziyi-visa.htm

                  this is how asian women deal with bad cooks. wink

                  1. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    lol lol I am rolling. great video.

              2. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Actually - I get it just fine. In fact - I used to subscribe, but your data is faulty and being interfered with by that extra brain you think works any different to the rest of them, but does not. If you ever get around to actually connecting to them you will discover that.

                And I am multi-platform but conflicted. wink

                Sorry, woo woo.

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  no need to apologize PC. you're hilarious. you seriously think you get it. you don't. the dendrites are not connecting...too much alcohol is swimming in your glial cells.

                  go back to yer basic math.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Sorry woo woo. I am sure it bothers you - but - let me know when you have actually connected and we will talk. For now it is all woo woo lala supposition that you got from some where else.

      2. ceciliabeltran profile image86
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        lol

        i have no illusions about convincing anyone. smile I am merely using the forum to observe my own perspective. It's like thinking aloud.

  24. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

    @ Juror no 8,

    As it seems you joined solely to add that, I will make this not too long. Your argument seems to be that Christianity is at least better than Islam and if you are going to be forcibly converted - a better alternative. To which I say - now - yes - in the 1200s - not so sure. A few other points:

    "Prove me wrong" is an attempt at humor aimed at all the religionists who state, "There is a god, it is up to you to disprove that."

    The Christian religion is the Roman Empire.

    There were many, many peaceful religions wiped out by the Christians including the Cathars. 

    You are seemingly ignoring the fact that most of the advancements that you speak of were despite the protests of the Christian Churches of the day.

    I put it to you that Christianity is no more or less tolerant than the Muslim religion - it has just had its power eroded - as all empires do when they stop expanding and sit back and relax to enjoy the fruits of their labor.

    Does your offer of free travel apply to Japan or The Czech Republic by any chance?

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      are you going to Prague? I lived there for a few years near the Castle a few minutes from the old town square where the non-religious government executed the townsfolk.

      Human violence always finds an excuse. It is a consequence of fear. The thing that you blame of Christianity is actually caused by fear.
      There was a lot of mongering in Christianity. But when it began, it was to rise above the fear mongering of Judaism and the Roman Empire.  Fear is your enemy. Not Christianity.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        No - fear is not my enemy. Frightened people are. Silly girl - I am trying to teach them they do not need to fear.

        Hopefully I am going to Tokyo if juror no 8 is good as his word to pay for me to go to a non Christian country. lol

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
          ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          (I wish you luck. loved Shibuya. The sushi there is worth the atrocious cost of the cab ride)

          Frightened people are scary indeed. I try not to push their buttons.

  25. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    my point is people change depending on their state of fear. you can show them there is nothing to fear but fear, without invalidating what they hold dear. these things that people latch on to is the opposite of fear. They fear losing their source of peace...hence they fight for their religion. It is always a good idea to go to the source. peace comes from a more essential source, oftentimes you get there through meditation of religious metaphors, sometimes you get there by simply seeking it in your own way.

    If people see religions as paths to essence and not ends in themselves, they will be less scared of losing the foundations of their source of peace because it will be founded solely on the strength of their own self knowledge and certainty.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Individually - perhaps. En masse - not so much. It must have escaped your attention how strong a grip this fear of death has on people. I also think you are mistaken that the Christian religion gives peace. Once again - perhaps individually - but certainly not en masse and the church is far, far more important than the individual. Despite all the religionists who claim to have a personal relationship. If they did - they would not need to spread the word.

      Sorry woo woo. wink

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        all religions are offering peace. That is why people buy the stuff it offers(as in peace be with you, nameste so on and so forth). prayer beads, novenas...etc etch all designed to quiet the chaotic and fearful mind

        some leaders and religious interpretations are good at promoting it while others make the problem worse. just like presidents. you win some, you lose some.

        it is not religion, it is not any specific religion. its basic human failings projected on to neutral things. anything will be good or evil depending on application and end-user.

        But its hard to upgrade. I understand if you cannot read advanced user-friendly programs. smile

        1. 60
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          And, they offer eternal hellfire to those who won't join their particular cult.



          I'm sorry your mind is chaotic and fearful, but those trinkets are just by-products of snakeoil salesmen making a fast buck on the gullibility of believers.

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
            ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            mirrors, q. the world is gigantic mirror of yourself.

  26. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    Being able to transcend pettiness in the spirit of honest exchange of ideas is a program that requires a lot of self-honesty and accountability.

    If you're reactive...consider yourself a victim of ism for life.

  27. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    ehem

  28. 59
    Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago

    Poor, poor Mark, I should have known that you would never tire of your very specific brand of reasoning. I made the claim that christianity allows for a secular government - that my friend is how christian societies improved, I never said the christian themselves advanced society. You use the same old tired fallacies to make yourself look more accomplished than you really are. If you were even up to the challenge then you would have understood that in the context of my post I was offering a lifetime emmigration to a Muslim country to contrast our Christian one. Unfortunatley you only skim over people's posts enough to make an ass of yourself. You speak of the christians overcoming other religions, true yes, but you  ignore my point that in reality the only other alternative for europe was indedd Islam. If you fail to understand this than you are as hopeless with history as you are with logic.

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Mark has a purpose. Anti-heroes make heroes.

    2. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I see - so - the offer of a trip to a non-christian country was only to a more backwards religion that xtianity? Sure - Islam was not a reaction to Christianity. They came first LOLOLOL

      OK - how about Egypt?

      Wow - you religionists and the level of deception you will stoop to never ceases to amaze me. Oh - sorry - LOL you are a atheist LOLOL

      1. 59
        Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Im somewhat perplexed by your statement that 'they came first'. By this exactly what do you mean? Islam was developed soley from the mind of Muhammad, who was srongly influenced by Manichaeism this came about in 628 A.D. You should know this since your an expert. LOL your self. What a fucking idiot.
        ." Level of deception", I reject that, however I would rather be the worlds greatest liar than its biggest fool. Do you want to go to Egypt? If thats the case the deal is you do not get to come back here no matter what the worlds politics turn into for the rest of your life. I dont think you want that.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          LOL Dear me. Deception. Look it up. You signed up just to attack me. Sure - send me a first class ticket to Egypt and enough money to live for the next 40 years. I am gone.

          Sorry your ability to understand plain English and read history seems to have been badly compromised by your need to defend xtianity. lol

          You atheist you. LOLOLOLOL

          1. 59
            Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Sounds great now all you have to do is give me your personal information so I can arrange to  'see you off' !
            No need to pack much kido.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Ah - threats. Definitely a Christian. LOLOLOL

              1. Greek One profile image80
                Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Don't worry Mark, I'll get ya into Heaven...

                just share with me your SEO secrets

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
                  ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  lol that's perspective alright.

              2. 59
                Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Ah - needlessly defensive. Definately a 'victom'. Thats right your a victom and your always looking for an agressor. I have not defended christianity I have simply responded to a post where you implied christianity can onlu foster conflict. You howver play this game of ignoring the content of the discussion and rambling on and on and on. Jesus fucking christ, someone must have raped you as a child.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh - my mistake. LOL


                  Content? Oh yes - Muslims are worse that Christians and if I don't think so you will pay me to go to a Muslim country.

                  Sure - I pick Egypt or Thailand. Still waiting on the money. wink

                  Oh - and I never said religion is the cause of man's violence, I said the Christian religion causes conflict.

                  What do you think? Proven?

                  1. 59
                    Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    No not muslims are worse than christians only that christianity lends itself to secular government, and this is its redeemable quality. AS IN - IT NOT ONLY CAUSES CONFLICT.


                    SURE- still waiting on the money, Im still waiting on the personal information, i have to make sure the money is actally spent on the emmigration you know how that goes. cant trust anyone these days LOL

                    OH - and iey neeeveeer ssayed thaaat religion is the cause....thats just it you never Say a goddamned thing. (a steve Erkel voice comes to mind here)

            2. 0
              SirDentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Your two previous posts have been reported as personal attacks. I also suggest you try thishttp://www.mochadad.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/soap-on-a-rope.jpg and keep it with you for the next time you need it. This is not MSN Group forums you know.

  29. qwark profile image61
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    I'm chuckling at the obvious dirth of education and understanding in responses to Marks question.
    Let me clear it up for you with a simplistic, but factual answer.
    Homo/sapienssapiens is a genetically programmed PREDACEOUS beast!
    He has been gifted, by the processes of natural selection, with an anomaly which makes him unique amongst all evolved life i.e. "consciousness."
    If religion were erased from his psyche, he'd replace it with another reason and purpose to "kill."
    I'll ask the same question Marks does:
    "PROVE me wrong."

    1. 59
      Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Your a blithering idiot. Mark pretends to be anti religious zealot, he focuses way too much on the religion of his home country to have any real authority. If Mark were anti religious he would dismiss it altogether. Your point is that humans are dangerous animals that are inherently violent, I couldnt agree with you mor, however, you have missed the boat with this post though. Mark is blaiming religion for humanities violence. Now I know he will come on here to say in his mamsy pansy way that he never said exactly that. We all know that this is his mission in life though. You actually believe that you and Mark are on the same page. As I said IDIOT.

      1. qwark profile image61
        qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Juror:
        Wow!...lol
        I don't think I agreed with Mark that religion is the cause of man's violence. How in the world did you come to that conclusion?
        I think you'd better begin to read with understanding before you make inane, incorrect decisions about what we "blithering idiots" offer for your consideration.
        Your response is based, I feel, on passion, not logic or reason.
        It sure doesn't make you out to be a credible forum hubber.
        Did you read and thoughtfully consider my next response?
        Evidently not.
        Now calm down. Get rid of the childish, passion driven thoughts you offer and type a well thought out, logical response to us "blithering idiots." ..ok?
        TY....:-)

        1. 59
          Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Obviously you didnt agree with him. as I pointed that out in the pos!!!. Your aligning yourself with him, quite simply by 'asking the same question.... prove me wrong'. which of course isnt even a question. LOL . you pionted out 'dirth of education and understanding.... Marks question'.  I stand by my reply. Credibilty doesnt seem to be a criteria for this blog, at least for some.

  30. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    blame it on the rain, yeah yeah
    blame it on the stars that shine at night.
    whatever you do, don't put the blame on you...

  31. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    there are many ways to the core self, if the beads get you there then its worth the dollar.

  32. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    some people prefer that over stimulants. the goal is to get the endorphins pumping so you're more empowered to face the challenges of the day.

  33. qwark profile image61
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    Specifically?
    Monotheism has, historically, fragmented humanity to the point that man will never come together, in concert, to guarantee his viability as a species.
    It continues on today.
    The result will be a massive diminution of human life.
    Who ever indicated that Hitler was an "atheist" (by the way there are no atheists) should read "Mein Kampff."
    Why people make such ludicrously ignorant comments, is hard to understand.

    1. mrpopo profile image86
      mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What do you mean by, there are no atheists?

      Not that I am one, I'm just curious.

      1. qwark profile image61
        qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Popo:
        I must presume that you know the definition of "atheist" i.e. "denies the existence of god/s?
        How can one deny the existence of that which can only be imagined?
        There is no definitive definition of this god thing in any monotheistic scripture. Ergo, "it" has to be conceived in the imagination of the one who wishes to consider "it." right?
        I can deny the "concept" of this god thing..but that's all.
        There's no factual "god" to deny.
        So there are no atheists....just wanabees. The same goes for christians. There are only wanabees.

        1. 59
          Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Your semantics leave alot to be desired.

        2. mrpopo profile image86
          mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Ah ok, that makes more sense. I assumed though, that atheists just deny the belief, not whether that belief is factual or imagined. Thanks for clearing things up smile

          1. 59
            Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            If what he said makes sense...... well how would you like to invest some money into a great business opportunity, no worry you will be rich by next month. I only need $25,000.00. cash please. lol

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              You are going to need more than that to send me to Thailand for 40 years. wink

              I have expensive tastes..............

            2. mrpopo profile image86
              mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Unfortunately I'm not made of money smile

            3. Randy Godwin profile image94
              Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              No problem, give me your name and address!

          2. qwark profile image61
            qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Hi Popo:
            YW
            The Miram-Webster dictionary def is: "One who denies the existence of god."
            "Belief" is not mentioned.

            1. mrpopo profile image86
              mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              The Wikipedia definition of Atheism is "the rejection of belief in the existence of deities".

              Don't take definitions so seriously or literally. They are not perfect, and always change wink

  34. LeanMan profile image80
    LeanManposted 6 years ago

    In my school it was always conkers that led to conflict...

  35. 59
    Juror no. 8posted 6 years ago

    I know that I may seem rather hateful. Actually I am quite hateful. I am, after all, a human. We tend to be rather agressive animals you know as some have pointed out here. No one came actually blame me for being a biligerent here you know. As Mark has claimed he never "said" religion causes conflict. Therefore i am resolved to be as agressive as need be to serve my anamalistic instincts. those of you who act all civilized and communal are full of... well you know what your full of.

  36. qwark profile image61
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    Big smile:...:-)
    Does anyone here agree with me that Juror 8 is probably an uneducated, impassioned adolescent which is offering comments to the best of "its" immature ability?
    I wanna see the "ayes" in print...lol
    I pat him on the head and say: Relax! One day you'll have an epiphany and it will all be revealed! Now go outside and play with the kids....:-)

    1. Randy Godwin profile image94
      Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Aye Aye!  What a load!

      1. qwark profile image61
        qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        TY Randy...:-)

  37. Mark Knowles profile image61
    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

    aye. big_smile

    1. Cagsil profile image82
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      AYE! smile

    2. qwark profile image61
      qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      TY Mark

  38. qwark profile image61
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    The "ayes" have it!
    I'm gonna relegate juror 8 to my list of those who do not deserve consideration, certainly not a response.
    My list is growing....:-)

  39. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    See the thing that causes conflicts and division is not Christianity or any religion. It's people. People like to identify with certain ideas. They wear it like clothes to cover fears, feelings of inadequacies, insecurities.  Or they wear it to stand for something that empowers them, that gives them a voice, a way to look at the world.

    Any idea can be destructive or constructive. It is who wears it that determines its color. It is who interprets it that give it power over their own lives.

    Religions are metaphors of the activities of the human mind and its unconscious and subconscious drama and histories. Blaming the ills of this world to religion is a failure to get to the heart of the problem. It is our ignorance of our own nature that is the problem.We cannot see past the clothes we wear. The garments are just garments we hide our true selves in.

  40. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    The persecution of specific ideas and focusing on the ideas is like catching someone's coat. The perpetrator escapes only to wear another coat...at this point, he would have already done the damage before you realize its the same thing in another coat.

  41. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    the enemy is anger that masks fear, its the illusion of superiority that masks the fear of inferiority.

    Abolish religion, or Christianity and these human conditions will erupt once again in another form.

    allow diversity but know your own mind.

  42. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    that said, i'm officially convinced i need to stop automating and be mindful of more important things...like meetings.lol

    1. brianzen profile image60
      brianzenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I am 100% behind that line of thinking.

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
        ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        tell me about it

  43. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    droid . has . it
    big_smile

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image86
      ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      droid may have it, but nobody wants to use it.

  44. ceciliabeltran profile image86
    ceciliabeltranposted 6 years ago

    goodnight night owls. Need to sleep and get organized. hopefully i won't see you guys again for a while.

  45. 68
    paarsurreyposted 6 years ago

    Hi friends

    Jesus came with Word of Revelation from the Creator-God Allah YHWH to unite the Jews; it was not for the Gentiles.

    Paul is the founder of present "Christianity"- a misnomer; Jesus had got nothing to do with it.

    Thanks

    I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

    1. Disappearinghead profile image88
      Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      We've told you before, we're not telling you again - lest Mr. Knowles think we're being all warlike and spreading ill will. smile

    2. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What does this war mongering nonsense have to do with the discussion at hand? Are you trying to show that Islam is just as divisive and conflict causing as Christianity?

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think he is trying to show it, I think it is just a part of being a religionist that can't be disguised. smile

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          They don't think so. Apparently - the problem is us heathens not doing as they tell us we should be doing. They accept no responsibility in this matter. They are just passing on Christ's message. (or in ps's case - some other ridiculous nonsense) LOLOLOLOL

          I mean - did you see one of the credos that aguasilver claims to live by?


          'Cause I see them doing this aaaaaall the time. lol  They cannot seem to grasp that the problem is that they do not do as they tell everyone else to do. They did that - I would have no problem with them.

          http://skeptisys.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/protest.jpg

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Wow! Sick! Is this pic taken in America?

          2. Precious Pearl profile image82
            Precious Pearlposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I have to say something about this photo ... first, it is divisive, vile and offensive.  It is not a true representation of the Body of Christ that I know and walk with every single day.  We hate the sin not the sinner and those that do this are not walking in the love of God but hatred.  And no one in their right mind is glad about AIDS.

            Now that said, this picture being posted speaks to the heart of the person that posts it ...why would you want to?

            I won't be responding ... just had to say something.

            1. thisisoli profile image65
              thisisoliposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              If the problem is the Sin not the Sinner why has the Christian religion (among others) spent so much time persecuting sinners?

            2. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Are you sure it does not speak to the heart of the people with the placards?

            3. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Are you sure it does not speak to the heart of the people with the placards?

              The truth hurts - you that calls your self precious. wink

              1. Precious Pearl profile image82
                Precious Pearlposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Obviously, it speaks to the heart of those in picture ... and yes, I am precious and so are you, Mark Knowles.

                Sorry, I just had to respond one last time.  Done now though ... this could go on forever ...

      2. Andrew0208 profile image60
        Andrew0208posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Mark, the rocket fighter! lol

        1. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          No answer then?

          1. Cagsil profile image82
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Hey Mark,

            Having fun I see. lol

          2. Andrew0208 profile image60
            Andrew0208posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You enjoy it(fighting) a lot Mark...A pleasant weekend!

  46. Cagsil profile image82
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    Human spirituality is only found through love and compassion.

    It is unfortunate, religion(man-made) system of control has people in conflict, with not only themselves but with others as well.

    It's a damn shame. hmm

    1. SpiritMom profile image60
      SpiritMomposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. Cagsil profile image82
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        New account? 5 hours old? One hub?

        And, do I know you?

        Just asking, because of your (statement). hmm

      2. Disappearinghead profile image88
        Disappearingheadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Insightfull smile

    2. Ellyja profile image60
      Ellyjaposted 6 years ago

      Religion is our individual belief system we possess as individuals, to do something religiously means we do it in a disciplined manner at a regular interval. I shave religiously once a week.  To blame conflict and division on something I do regularly seems like a stretch.  I believe conflict and debate is caused by the absence of peace, which I believed happened at the release of the second horseman, the Church would be the one to blame for causing division by misleading the masses away from the true reason for Jesus, and I don't believe he taught his followers that conflict is a productive method to spread brotherhood and peace.

    3. Kori Lee F.P. profile image80
      Kori Lee F.P.posted 6 years ago

      I agree with your statement.  And Casil point of view. We are humans evolving and expanding at all moments.  The Bible, with respect, was written by men who had certain intentions that do match our values or life today.  My step-daughter is a modern woman, who is quite beautiful, but she believes in something that was written by men who have alterior motives.  It is sad, and I respectfully let her do her thing.  If your religion denies you feeling of compassion and love because you think your friend is going to hell, what is the point in the end.  Peace be with You all!!

    4. theirishobserver. profile image60
      theirishobserver.posted 6 years ago

      Religion is the invention of men and is about control - control means trouble as we all know - faith - thats your own business - religion - dont like it - men in skirts could never be right

      1. nikki1 profile image61
        nikki1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Satan controls. God doesn't. He gives us options. He loves us all.
        Satan tried to take CONTROL over our world and LOST! Thank goodness. God banished him. Way to go.

        1. 60
          (Q)posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Film at eleven? wink

    5. sooner than later profile image61
      sooner than laterposted 6 years ago

      All this has been said before though. Every now and again while I'm watching young children play in a jungle fortified field behind my church in Costa Rica I see their smiling faces and wonder why Mark chooses to live in an unchanging, miserable state of Christian bashing mindset. Living in front of a computer? Then I quickly shake me head and enjoy all that the Lord has provided for me and my familly and am reminded to pray for the lost at heart.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        How is that going by the way? I know you prefer uneducated peasants to share the "love of the Lord whether they like it or not" with.

        Do they call you Daddy? Or Papa?

     
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