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You say religious believers are illogical?

  1. profile image0
    crmhaskeposted 7 years ago

    The illogic is not in the choice of belief, the illogic is the insistence that one is right.  Some atheists are guilty of this same crime.

    Given the infinite amount of possibilities in this world, to insist one has the final answer after only having explored an infinitesimal number of these possibilities is arrogant and narcissistic.

    Our brains are me-centred.  It is simply how we process information - even our world's languages exhibit this fact.  Distances, people, events - the words we have to wield depend on explaining these things in relation to the speaker.

    At our core, we are narcissistic, and as such, it is often the case that our beliefs are equally so.

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
      ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Yes, i agree with this. It is the shoving down of personal opinion into other people's throat that is in question here.

      Why do you need to shove it down people's throat? Do you need other people to agree with you so that you'll believe it too?

      1. schoolgirlforreal profile image74
        schoolgirlforrealposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        no, I just like a good "discussion" or debate!!!

    2. luvpassion profile image61
      luvpassionposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree also, I have discovered one atheist on here that considers all those who believe in an afterlife, (Whatever it might be,) to be fools and cowards.

      Curious as I have some atheist friends and showed them his post. They simply laughed it off.

      1. Beelzedad profile image57
        Beelzedadposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        I got exactly the same reaction when I showed some of your posts on science to scientists.

        1. luvpassion profile image61
          luvpassionposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Touche'  but then I am very young and still have alot to learn. I have an open mind.

          Thanks
          Teri

          1. Beelzedad profile image57
            Beelzedadposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            If it regards something about science, and you don't really know, ask the question and you'll get an answer. Happy to oblige. smile

            1. luvpassion profile image61
              luvpassionposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Very well do you consider Dark Matter feasible?

              1. Beelzedad profile image57
                Beelzedadposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Sure, why not? Dark matter is only matter that does not emit electromagnetic radiation like stars do. smile

                1. luvpassion profile image61
                  luvpassionposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  But its presence is only inferred indirectly.

                  1. Beelzedad profile image57
                    Beelzedadposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    No, there are direct measurable effects in the form of a gravitational field. There MUST be matter there if a gravitational field is present, but it is matter that we just can't see because it does not emit electromagnetic radiation.

                    Our moon also does not emit ER. smile

                  2. LiamBean profile image90
                    LiamBeanposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    So far...

          2. profile image55
            fallenangel666posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Don't ever allow others to diminish your openmindedness, the thing you will learn in life is that most people are extremely narrow minded, they will attempt to steal your eclective cognition like intellectual paedophiles, always question what everyone tells you, even constantly questioning what you believe yourself. Never assume that someone else knows evrything, no matter how famous they are.

    3. profile image0
      Will Bensonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      IMO, the OP summed things up nicely.

      Beliefs are not facts; facts are backed up by proof that is acceptable to anyone capable of thinking logically. Here's a few things that are NOT proofs:

      - "The universe is so intricate, there must be a supreme intelligence in charge." Not a proof.
      - "Science has unraveled many of the universe's secrets, so a supreme intelligence cannot exist." Not a proof.

      - "The statements in my holy book are true because very holy people who believed in God wrote them." Not a proof.
      - "The statements in my science book are true because very smart people who believed in Quantum Theory wrote them." Not a proof.

      This could (and does) go on and on. Gee - if only we could come up with a 1-sentence proof of the existence or nonexistence of a supreme intelligence, that would simplify things. Then myself and many others, like the OP (i.e. those who admit we "don't know") WOULD know whether to go to church or to play golf on Sunday AM.

      Proof and belief are not interchangeable terms...even when you "know" you're right.

      Sorry if I sound all preachy. My thoughts.

      1. WizardOfOz profile image60
        WizardOfOzposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Burden of proof.  End of story.

      2. wilmiers77 profile image59
        wilmiers77posted 7 years ago in reply to this

        God is in the big picture and inter workings of the minute which can not be seen. Us humans are wavering in between, straining to ignore their immortality; concealing their frailness; overly concerned about their nose to nose interactions. Lets face it, we all idolize something bigger than ourselves. Why not keep God in the equation?

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Because it is a ridiculous pile of old cobblers perhaps? smile

        2. Beelzedad profile image57
          Beelzedadposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          No, we don't all idolize something bigger than ourselves. Keeping gods in the equation only adds mass confusion, hypocrisy and contradiction to our world, let alone the conflicts. smile

    4. iantoPF profile image88
      iantoPFposted 7 years ago in reply to this


      To get back to the poiht;
      I mostly agree with this first post. The problems of logic and illogic happen when believers and unbelievers mix the words "Truth" and "Reality" with science. Truth and reality are theological words they are not scientific words. Science is only concerned with what works. For instance; we use Euclidian geometry for building a house but must use a very different system for measuring the globe that is the Earth. In the same way a scientist may use the Evolutionary hypothesis as a convenient method of categorizing plants and animals while personally believing deeply in divine creation. That isn't illogical it's simply being functional.
      The illogical and for many of us, the offensive part, is when believers insist that we will be the victims of a vengeful god if we do not bend the knee. What is even more distasteful is the notion that unless we profess faith in god we have no morals. These are the notions that cause anger and animosity.

    5. nightwork4 profile image61
      nightwork4posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      whether a person believes in god or not should never be relevant . how a person uses their beliefs is what matters to me. I'm an athiest but i don't hate p[eople who believe in god. what does bother me is when someones beliefs cause them to be ignorant to others who differ or when a person uses their beliefs as a tool to get what they want from others. In my life i have found that fear is why lots of people say they believe in god but that's not always the case. i'm alive and i will one day die. what happens after that is impossible for anyone to know and that is a fact i believe.

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
        ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        see, this guy has different priorities. He doesn't care to be god or goddess in mount Olympus causing havoc on the poor mortals who dare think they are better. He just allows his nature to fulfill his cycles .

    6. profile image0
      brotheryochananposted 7 years ago in reply to this
    7. schoolgirlforreal profile image74
      schoolgirlforrealposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      If you believe something is true.....and you have proof be it faith or personal experience--you would want to "help others" it's just a natural thing for humans.

      But the question was are religious people illogical. Answer is no.  Believing in God is not illogical in fact man has always believed in some "god" since early humans so to try and say it's illogical is trickery.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        That does not make it logical. wink

        Believing in something in which there is absolutely no evidence is indeed illogical, irrational and in fact - dangerous.

        Perhaps you could provide some rational or logical argument in favor that does not involve "men have always believed" or " I can't imagine how there is not a god"?

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image74
          schoolgirlforrealposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          what about love? It's invisible yet exists!

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            So - emotions are exactly the same as invisible super beings huh? Love exist, but you cannot see it, therefore - logically - an invisible super being exists, coz you cannot see that either? See how that is not working?

            In that case - The Invisible Pink Unicorn told me that love exists. wink

            Seriously - that is the best you can do to justify your illogical, irrational beliefs? sad

    8. www.lookseenow profile image62
      www.lookseenowposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      “Some folks believe in something that will probably never happen.  There’s no way!”

           “Oh, Yeah!  My belief is neither blind nor illogical.  It’s based on expectation of what my Creator has demonstrated with realities, though not yet beheld.”

           “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for—the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.”  (Heb 11:1)

           “I have faith that God will fulfill his promises.  That’s my guarantee that I will receive what I hope for.  He produces evidence that grantees what you consider to be lacking as demonstration to support what he has promised.  It’s impossible for God to lie, and so it’s impossible for God not to keep his promises.  If I lacked that faith, it would be impossible for me to please him well, because of that disbelief that he is and that he becomes my rewarder because I believe in him.”

      Some folks claim that the Bible is man’s book written by men.  That’s true, but it is not a result of human wisdom.  The true God used men to do Bible writing, but they wrote God’s thoughts not their own.  No prophecy of scripture springs from private interpretation, men spoke from God as they were born along by holy spirit.

      1. Beelzedad profile image57
        Beelzedadposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        You can't possibly know that for a fact, it is something you can only believe to be true. All we do know for a fact is that scriptures were written by men. End of story. smile

    9. wilmiers77 profile image59
      wilmiers77posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Christians are in some cases illogical and non-logical because it is impossible to please God without faith. Furthermore, the fruits of the Spirit in faith is very logical; it's God honoring His Word.

      Christians should stand boldly in their faith. Strong believers is actually observing and experiencing the truth of the Spirit; so, their attitude to no surprise is "you can't miss this!".

    10. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 7 years ago in reply to this




      Who is the judge? How do you base your statement, on what proof? Is this in general?

    11. schoolgirlforreal profile image74
      schoolgirlforrealposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      yea but you insist you are right so you are crazy

    12. Merlin Fraser profile image73
      Merlin Fraserposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Go Read http://hubpages.com/hub/Yep-Im-definately-a-Pagan

         Then come back and challenge my logic on the subject.

  2. getitrite profile image79
    getitriteposted 7 years ago

    I exploit you, still you love me
    I tell you one and one makes three
    I'm the Cult of Personality,

    Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi
    I'm the Cult of Personality
    Cult of Personality
    Cult of Personality
                        Living Colour

  3. TMMason profile image65
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    There are more scientists who believe in God, than not.

    http://www.uncommondescent.com/

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
      ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      For these people G-d is an entirely different matter from science. G-d is a personal need for a psyche to project on to. I sometimes find myself saying Dear G-d, help me please, help me. even I know ultimately I have to take action. It helps. It helps to pray and project that need outward. Because I am able to unburden myself. Does that mean I expect some miracle to happen. No. But sometimes actually it all works out and it wasn't as deadly as I thought it was. The prayer got me through. It got me through. And that is the function of it. The existence of G-d in the human psyche is born out of a need for the human to pray outwardly for support. For some additional dose of energy.


      But if you ask me, do I believe there's a G-d? I would give you a roundabout answer composed of facts and proofs and equations that would be tantamount to saying "I really hope so, I really do."

      1. mohitmisra profile image54
        mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The existence of G-d in the human psyche is born out of a need for the human to pray outwardly for support. For some additional dose of energy.

        No this is a deep knowing that a superior intelligence or god does exist. If one is a hundred percent sure god doesn't exist he will not even pray in his times of need.

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
          ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I can see there's a higher order that can be intelligence at work in the cosmos and within us.

          what i don't know is it all up to me and the elevation of my consciousness...seems yes. Somehow I hope that it is not.I long to be favored without effort and blessed without asking. But that I suppose is more of a parental issue and not G-d one (as all G-d notions are)

    2. LiamBean profile image90
      LiamBeanposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That may be true, but what do scientists envision g_d to be? I think the IMPORTANT consideration here is concept, not simply belief.

  4. profile image0
    crmhaskeposted 7 years ago

    Personally I'd rather not know.  The unknown is what makes life worth living.

    1. profile image0
      Will Bensonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree - and I don't think there's any danger of someone proving their case to the other side.

      As I see it we either beat enormous odds to exist in a totally random chance universe or else we exist due to some unknowable super intelligence. Win-Win to me.

    2. TruthDebater profile image54
      TruthDebaterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Crm, I agree! It is the unknown that urges us to explore and expand our minds.

      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        exploration without satisfaction is either the romantic or classic relief, the Ism.

        1. profile image55
          fallenangel666posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          21 days is a good example of how religious people are not neccasarily narrow minded, pity the same can't be said about the rest of you, you need to reconsider how you view the world and the people who share it with you.

          1. profile image0
            Brenda Durhamposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Sure thing!    tongue
              I'll get right on that, like...immediately!  Your screen name convinced me via much much logic that you're the one to listen to, especially with that well-rounded number 666 in it!   How easy was that!??  (is that a nice shiny red apple I see in your hand?)  LOLOL

            1. profile image55
              fallenangel666posted 7 years ago in reply to this

              It sounds like you could do to eat an apple from the tree of knowledge

              1. profile image0
                Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                bad idea, actually. the tree of the knowledge is what seems to have gotten humans into the state they are -slaves to their own minds and every moment reminding themselves of their own nakedness. Perhaps it would be better if they drink from the river of life (not sit and sing kumbaya as it passes them by -because they were too busy being busy; too busy reading about it and then forgetting to do what it says; to busy re-inventing themselves as self creators while they neglect the simple unity with Creator).


                Ba`al + Judaism or Islam or Christianity (*) = Babylon

                *variations obviously included

                1. profile image55
                  fallenangel666posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Sorry 21 days I was wrong about your openmindedness, obviously you are the sort of person who would have had the rest of us burnt at the stake, exactly why we should fight to the death to prevent non secular governments ever ruling our societies again.

                  1. profile image0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    glad to hear you apologizing for yourself.
                    the open mindedness I prefer, is not based on perverted necessity of historical information -for the sake of satisfying the equation or sensation. Seems you prefer to dwell of the equation side of a very old and tired house called Duality. Sadly, that is not even remotely close to critical thinking. I prefer to watch the house from a distance. What is in it, doesn't interest me as much as who is in it. Neither side can ever rest until they are both removed, by violence or peace. Either way, they will end at some point.

                    In the meantime, they will pull metals and plants from the earth, fashion them into buildings, clothes to wear, places to shop and screw. The equation will design better potions that the sensationalist will swallow like "holy wafers" on a Sunday morning. They'll join together and build new temples, new idols and keep alive their worship of ba`al, leaving behind a trench of half rotting corpses, overdosed with chemicals. They'll hang both man and animal on their "museum" (church and laboratory) walls for all of creation to see; Call upon the 'gods' of their ancestors -the great potion makers and mystics of Darwin, Dawkins, Daniel and even Diana if they could.

                    They'll lay on their beds at night relishing their darkest desires until they have just one breath left. And in that breath the ones who say they loved the Creator will deny and curse his name. The one's who said they hate Him or did not exist, will cry out to him...

        2. profile image0
          crmhaskeposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          When it comes to exploration if you find yourself satisfied you really aren't a very good explorer.  Exploration is about the insatiable thirst for knowledge and understanding.  It is something you do until your last breath.  Or at least for me, that is really living.

      2. profile image0
        crmhaskeposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Absolutely!  What would be the point of life if we had all of the answers?  Our species is very good at two things: creating/destroying, and discovery.  We are not a species designed for stagnation whatsoever.  I said that arrogance was innate in humans, but so is curiosity.

        And TruthDebater, you are freaking me out.  This agreeing with me and stuff, cut it out tongue

    3. mohitmisra profile image54
      mohitmisraposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      You are a seeker of enlightenment crmhaske, life is richer and fuller after enlightenment.One really lives only after that.

  5. Jerami profile image75
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    You say religious believers are illogical?



    Really ???
    I think everything that I don't understand ot believe is illogical.

    Don't everyone ?

    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      precisely. either by scientific methods or sensation methods -logic is subjected, unfortunately. Anything of the logic or illogic is only within the human condition. On both ends of the parallel, understanding surpasses. This is why science and theology have a set system of practices they use to comprehend their 'discoveries' -which are nothing more than thoughts surfacing or dominating their consciousness at that moment.

      Sadly both sides taunt the other, gaining no moral or social value -actually the opposite. When they abandon both, something all together unique occurs and fulfills the quest they both seem relentless on.

      1. Jerami profile image75
        Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        hear!  hear!  Twenty One Days  and Joy56

          I'm a believer that is caught someplace between the ditches....  Religiousity is one ditch and Atheism is the other.

           When they said the path was narrow  they didn't say it was far right or far left so streight up the middle is where I be trying to go.

        1. Joy56 profile image61
          Joy56posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          you can be religious, and a believer in god, without being a menace.   it sounds like staying in the middle even though the path may be narrow is a good idea.

          1. Jerami profile image75
            Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I've been in too many discussions as to the definition of what religious is.  Unless I am aware of other peoples definition, I choose to not committ.   If we are talking about being religious about Church, I decline. Church may be alright but; I am not religious about "IT".

            1. Joy56 profile image61
              Joy56posted 7 years ago in reply to this

              i know what you mean.   I just like the bible and believe it's content.  I think it has a message of good news for us,  so i keep reading, and learning more about it, simple as that really,

              1. Jerami profile image75
                Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I wish it were that simple in my head.
                I believe that there is a truth in scripture.
                I'm just a little skeptical as to wether the new testament ( "CANON" ) stayed on the narrow path.

                1. Joy56 profile image61
                  Joy56posted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  not always easy to make the right decisions.  I believe if we pray for the answers we get them, and just take the time to keep looking.  Not exactly simple, but positive.

                  1. Jerami profile image75
                    Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    I think that the answers are in the prophesy.

                      When we lay them out chronoligically as they explain themselves to be, and not as interpretations have been explaining them; A different story is told.

                  2. profile image0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    joy, choice is the sin itself. Oddly, many don't see it. Like Adam, they give way to choice -choosing to know good/evil instead of just acting on the seed of pure faith given them. When acted upon, faith becomes more than words in books and pretty preachers, it becomes the manifest desire of the Father -free will. The free will is the visible evidence of Grace. Not just the mercy of forgiveness, but the power/anointing of covenant unity between you and He.
                    This is why the law, the prophets, the manna and staff were sealed in the ark. They were sealed beneath the mercy seat. Above the mercy seat rests the glory of the Father. You are that glory!
                    smile

                  3. ceciliabeltran profile image79
                    ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    what a cool pic!

  6. Joy56 profile image61
    Joy56posted 7 years ago

    i am a religious believer.  I am not illogical though, i do not think i am though.  I was just brought up to believe, and have found nothing better,so have stuck with my beliefs.

  7. getitrite profile image79
    getitriteposted 7 years ago

    "Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple."  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded.  "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!"  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

    1. Joy56 profile image61
      Joy56posted 7 years ago in reply to this

      oh right thanks for that.

      1. getitrite profile image79
        getitriteposted 7 years ago in reply to this



        Just wanted to share the message of good news. lol!!!

        1. Joy56 profile image61
          Joy56posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          brilliant, well done, it was lovely.

        2. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Your idea of 'good news' is based on Hebrew tribal law, called Torah. You and Earnest seem to have a common thread, neither understanding the purpose. Even a non religious scientist can grasp the concept: and the violent take by force. One force in particular are those easily forgotten atomic explosions -which killed more people in a single second than ALL the Hebrew conquests to date.

          Still want to 'preach'?

          1. getitrite profile image79
            getitriteposted 7 years ago in reply to this



            Lordy Lordy!  Of course.  Allegory!  It's all Allegory!  Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

            1. profile image0
              Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              you know "Marcus", the man behind the curtain is the one who pushed the button. Not Moses, Elijah or Creator. It was a scientist -and a reluctant one at that. But, clinging to antagonism or cryptic apathy will eventually give way to one of two things: death by absolution or death be necessity. Both are caverns deep. Seems you do have choices after all. Go figure.

              1. getitrite profile image79
                getitriteposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                The most frightening thing is that we can't save ourselves from ourselves.

                1. profile image0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Its not frightening, it is reality. Understanding you cannot is all the more reason to explore what can be -the infinite possibilities. Why limit yourself to Duality -of equation or sensation- neither can satisfy the condition since both are the manifestations of it. Why not attempt -by any measure small or grand- to supersede it and see liberation, not as a tool or weapon but something far more applicable -yes applicable- free will. Tools and weapons are the things of slaves. How many humans have used them both to destroy themselves and one another for centuries...

                  1. getitrite profile image79
                    getitriteposted 7 years ago in reply to this



                    You seem to think of free will as the magic bestowed by a creator for our sake.

              2. ceciliabeltran profile image79
                ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Hi James!

                1. profile image0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  Hi Cecilia!

    2. Jerami profile image75
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      That was not an actual event.
      This was a vision (prophesy) that was fulfilled by three diffrent factions of Judism in Jerusalem during the last couple of years before the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. 

         This was foreseen about mans evil upon man.

      1. getitrite profile image79
        getitriteposted 7 years ago in reply to this



        Of course!

        1. Jerami profile image75
          Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          I gotta get off the computer for a little while  back later.

          1. Joy56 profile image61
            Joy56posted 7 years ago in reply to this

            speak soon

  8. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    Not only is there no god, but try getting a plumber on weekends. — Woody Allen

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
      ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name in a Swiss bank.
          Woody Allen

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        lol I think Woody still has a couple of shekles left! lol
        I like his mind, I find him to be a bit lateral. smile

        1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
          ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          He is not bad at all.

  9. profile image0
    AKA Winstonposted 7 years ago

    (The illogic is not in the choice of belief, the illogic is the insistence that one is right.  Some atheists are guilty of this same crime.)

    It is not really illogical to insist one is right - the illogic comes with the form of evidence used.  An atheist may point to the books of Richard Dawkins as proofs; that is no better proof than a theist who points to the Bible.  Both are guilty of a logical fallacy of appealing to authority.  At the same time, if I can make a sound logical argument then I have every right to insist the conclusion is valid.  Problem is, logical arguments can never prove or disprove existence.  It that sense it is foolhardy to argue the existence or non-existence of God through logics.

    I see a lot of words tossed around in these pages without a lot of thought behind them as to what they actually mean: morality, proof, truth, fact.  It is both lazy and sloppy to toss these terms around without a consistent definition as to their meanings - the common language understanding simply will not suffice if one is interested in precise understandings.  Common language is the lazy approach used in order to make unwarranted claims that have no real meaning.

    Here is a sample: nothing can be true in and of itself.  It is not true that the moon orbits the earth.  Truth is always proved.  It follows then that proof must be subjective, as accepting the proof requires an observer and a decision.  Systems of logic solve the dichotomy of true/false.  Truth, then, is that which has been shown to be a logical necessity by a system of logic.

    That is my definition of truth.  It is consistent and concise and when we use the word in a debate everyone will understand exactly what is meant. 

    Instead of tossing out meaningless truth claims, how much more crisp would be the meaning in these pages if concrete definitions like this were required?

  10. dgicre profile image82
    dgicreposted 7 years ago

    The very nature of religion is based on faith. The definition of faith is complete trust and confidence in someone or something. Pretty hard to argue with someone when there whole basis of belief is based on this one principle.

    1. profile image0
      AKA Winstonposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      @dgicre,

      This is a good observation, more so when one realizes that this religious belief to be of value must be a total belief, even to the point of eliminating or ignoring any contradictory information.  Doubt is antithesis to belief.

      How, indeed, can one hold a rational discussion with someone whose faith requires them to ignore anything that might cause doubt?

      Religious faith, then, is a belief in an ultimate authority.  Reason, logic, and rationality are not factors to consider.  Only blind obedience matters.

      1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
        ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        doubt is not the antithesis of belief.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Of course it is. Like the new avatar - where did you get that idea? big_smile

          1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
            ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            It is not. disbelief is the antithesis of belief.

            belief is acceptance of a thought without proof or reason.
            disbelief is nonacceptance of a thought despite proof and reason.

            doubt is a gradient of belief.

    2. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Faith came before religion or science and it not an entity.
      I agree it is challenging to commit to an argument, since both sides -equation or sensation proclaim infallibility or supremacy.
      good thing faith needs neither to exist.

      and again, people are assuming that people of faith -not a particular faith- are ignorant, irrational -since most antagonists do not understand simple critical thinking, nor do the sensationalists comprehend scientific hypothesis. Logic is simple or complex human expression of their own perception of consciousness.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Merely inventing new meanings for terms that already have accepted meanings is not very helpful. Faith is a state of mind.

        Faith - "firm belief in something for which there is no proof."

        http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/faith

        And the very fact that you are attempting to argue your point proves you are wrong. wink

        A scientific hypothesis is a proposed explanation of an observable phenomena. You are missing the critical "observable" phase.

        Speaking of critical. Critical thinking also requires an observable phenomena, or at least some evidence.

        Esoteric knowledge was, is, and always will be the start of the church and the cause of the conflict/oppression. Fortunately - you are not terribly convincing, thanks to the condescending claims to a superior intellect, and use of needlessly complex, invented definitions of words. I see you are claiming "compassion" as your motivation also. Sounds familiar. lol

        1. Joy56 profile image61
          Joy56posted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Mark just dry up, no one ever takes any notice of you anyway, you are sad.

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            On the contrary, Mark is one of only a handful of people who offer any useful argument on these threads. The rest are here-say from one silly book full of contradictions and lies. smile
            Caps, and the fitting thereof. smile

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              It really bothers them to hear an argument against their religion. This one even admits to never having read the bible, but believing it in any case. And she certainly doesn't understand what 21 days is saying about her religion. lol

              1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
                ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                The trouble with James is that he refuses ( and I say this with all love for you James) to go down the monkey bar of words. As if he says climb up here in this level, you can well try harder. It's like you're talking to an alien sometimes. But when someone does, you actually see

                "the heavens unfasten" Neruda

                1. profile image0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  I appreciate the love, Cecilia. I used to run up-down that ladder and decided one day enough was enough. People cannot be pulled up from the tar if they only want to be tarred, feathered and set themselves on fire. But if they want to understand, then there is such a place -beyond silly little antics, scribbles of their own consciousness forced upon every human being as infallible knowledge- biblical or botany, which (as I have said many times) is simply a lack of actual, genuine understanding of faith and grace (free will). Seems choice provides the platform for them to justify the lack of -- and justify the primitive worship of their minds, buildings, libraries, laboratories, temples, relics -- their gods. People like Marcus & Earnest v Brenda & The Priestess only further confirm it...

                  Am actually going to publish some articles this month, since the contest is nearly over for food.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    LOLOLO You have obviously never asked me my opinion of scientists and most so-called "science," have you? wink

                    GM? Fighting it in person here in France. Want to genetically manipulate DNA to create a Mosquito that does not carry malaria?

                    Convince me you fully understand the place a Mosquito has in the eco system first...... wink

                    Ahhhh, Assumptions...... big_smile

        2. ceciliabeltran profile image79
          ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          esoteric knowledge was the only knowledge and the father of modern science as alchemy and astrology were the fathers of chemistry and astronomy.

          1. rizwan_isria profile image60
            rizwan_isriaposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Believe What You see and Judge What you see

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
              ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              hmmm...you have no idea.

          2. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I am wondering if we are using this word in the same way. Perhaps you could give me your definition of "esoteric?"

            1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
              ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Are you talking about this:

              Main Entry: es·o·ter·ic
              Pronunciation: \ˌe-sə-ˈter-ik, -ˈte-rik\
              Function: adjective
              Etymology: Late Latin esotericus, from Greek esōterikos, from esōterō, comparative of eisō, esō within, from eis into; akin to Greek en in — more at in
              Date: circa 1660

              1 a : designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone <a body of esoteric legal doctrine — B. N. Cardozo> b : requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to a small group <esoteric terminology>; broadly : difficult to understand <esoteric subjects>
              2 a : limited to a small circle <engaging in esoteric pursuits> b : private, confidential <an esoteric purpose>
              3 : of special, rare, or unusual interest <esoteric building materials>

              — es·o·ter·i·cal·ly \-i-k(ə-)lē\ adverb \


              OR this:

              Western esotericism or Hermeticism  (also Western Hermetic Tradition, Western mysticism, Western Inner Tradition, Western occult tradition, and Western mystery tradition) is a broad spectrum of spiritual  traditions found in Western society, or refers to the collection of the mystical, esoteric knowledge of the Western world. This includes, but is not limited to, alchemy, theosophy, herbalism, occult tarot, astrology, Rosicrucianism and Western forms of ritual magic. The tradition has no one source or unifying text, nor does it hold any specific dogma, instead placing emphasis on "inner knowledge" or Gnosis.


              or this:

              Esotericism

              “Truth is everywhere you turn. If you can let go of it with your mind and surround it with your heart, it will live inside of you forever.” Lao-Tzu

              A tradition of hidden or esoteric knowledge has been preserved within almost all cultures and religions. In its popular forms, esoteric knowledge is rumored to give eternal youth, transmute lead into gold, describe the inner workings of man, and give us a clue to his fate.

              ?

              which definition are you familiar with?

              1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                I am "familiar," with all of them.

                Can you answer the question - or is it all about showing how clever you are? wink

                1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
                  ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                  what is with the fixation with my cleverness? get over it and discuss your case.

                  obviously I refer to all esoteric thought as the esoteric tradition is all about knowledge of the hidden aspect of reality, the forces around us. The language just changes and are replaced with equally difficult to grasp words. But the mission is the same. to penetrate the hidden order of the universe.

                  You're always saying I have a low opinion of you, wow, you understand. Demonstrate your own cleverness so you do not bother so much with what you imagine to be mine.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                    Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                    Dear me. How very clever you are. LOLOLOLOL lol lol

        3. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Now, if you want the brownie button, Marcus, you have to be a good listener, a good school boy. Compassion was a query, not a statement. Even still, compassion is not held in the grip of dictionary references -your apparent god that provides trivial human word bites designed by your own necessity and condition of mental slavery- which you are highly accustomed to injecting. As for knowledge, how quaint, shallow, but pretty that the only two words you regurgitate are semantic and esoteric. Neither of which applies to critique. You want it to, and that's OK. It satisfies your (plural) continued needy child behavior. Your use of selfism lacks on primal thing- an evolutionary thing even -purity. The greatest compassion -as the word itself suggests- is to point you in the right direction.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Yes - I know that is what you think of yourself. I LOLed when I saw what a very, high opinion you have of yourself. lol

  11. TruthDebater profile image54
    TruthDebaterposted 7 years ago

    Logical belief is one without contradictions. Every single person has at least 1 contradiction in their beliefs whether they recognize it or not. So everyone can be considered illogical. Some have less contradictions than others giving them a hint of being more logical.

    1. Jerami profile image75
      Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I wound agree with what you said   except   I think that you were being too kind about the number of contradictions.

        The average people that I have meet have many contradictions in their concious mind.  And that is the tip of the iceburg that reaches deep into the subconcious.
        The subconcious mind is a greater motivator tham most realize.

      1. TruthDebater profile image54
        TruthDebaterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Yes the subconscious does store the contradictions, but it is the conscious mind and self awareness that can recognize and correct them. Both have equal or balanced power in a sense.

        1. Jerami profile image75
          Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Absolutely correct.  But there are people that go through life unaware of this fact.  Unaware of the arsenal that the unconscious mind is carrying. Then it is not an equal balance.

              It is the conscious mind that makes the decisions.
          Sometimes the conscious mind blindly goes along with what their subconscious mind wants to do.

            Seldom is there found a perfect balance of logic and emotion

          1. TruthDebater profile image54
            TruthDebaterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            I agree on everything you wrote except for the term unconscious. I think unaware is a better term without unconscious, I think unconscious as the mind being dead.

            1. Jerami profile image75
              Jeramiposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              Right again..  The effects of my first cut of coffey hasn't kicked in yet. 

                  I just love it, that the air is so full of excuses.
              Right there for the picking any time we need one.

              Yes! unaware would have been a better choice of words,

              1. TruthDebater profile image54
                TruthDebaterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

                Thank You. But it is good you wrote unconscious. Our definitions and society expose how little we know about consciousness. None of us know the origin of consciousness. Many of us use or used the word unconscious in the past which is incorrect for describing someone still having a level of subconsciousness. I don't know how we keep the wrong definition for so long considering unconscious is a contradiction to subconscious. Maybe because we are unaware. lol

  12. Jerami profile image75
    Jeramiposted 7 years ago

    Though it is not correct to use the word unconcious,,,

      Being consious and yet obliverous to some things can be seen in the same light as UNconcious. 

       I know that I have found my self in this position.

      I get to go make a few dollars today..   YEA   
      Business has been slow.. 
      I don't know why when people have a choice between paying for home repairs or Food  they usually choose FOOD. 

     
    Any way I gotta go make some money for food my self.
    My new tires are goina have to wait.


    Later.

    1. TruthDebater profile image54
      TruthDebaterposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I agree they can be seen that way, but it is because we are unaware of them, not unconscious of them. If we are unconscious, we don't see anything.

  13. Randy Godwin profile image93
    Randy Godwinposted 7 years ago

    Now Mark, we should be glad these great minds deign to come to a site with so many of us ignorant participants and try to educate us.  Especially when they should be making millions elsewhere with their superior mental abilities.  Have you no gratitude?  LOL!

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
      ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      superiority equals millions of money?

  14. ceciliabeltran profile image79
    ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago

    everybody has the capacity to use the outer brain and the medial prefrontal cortex sadly, the reptilian brain is just too old too set in its ways that it won't let go of control.

    So sometimes you are talking medial prefrontal and reptilian answers. Its a different language, different paradigm.

    Everybody has the capacity to understand and do understand. The trouble is the reptilian brain is too afraid that if it allows the larger self to learn, it will be powerless and disposable.

    The reptilian brain needs to trust the outer brain. The nanosnake needs to accept it is from and part of the amino acid soup it swims in.

  15. profile image0
    AKA Winstonposted 7 years ago

    @ceciliabeltran,

    Antithesis is from the Greek, meaning setting opposite.  Doubt, of course, sets opposite to belief.  Doubt is antithesis to belief.
    Disbelief is the negation of belief.

    Thanks for playing.

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
      ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I rarely disagree. But I do now.
      Doubt means there is some belief, but you are making reservations.
      the antithesis of belief is you do not believe.

      An anti-thesis is a negation just like antimatter is a negation of matter. -1 + 1=0. simple.

      belief (1) + disbelief (-1) = 0 (dunno)

      doubt = 1 belief - 1/2 disbelief

      if you doubt it means you are suspending belief, you are questioning. Disbelief means it's totally absurd and you don't entertain the idea. Period.

      You can argue it to the high heavens but my position is the antithesis of agree.  meaning I disagree.

  16. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    That is one slippery cat! lol

    1. ceciliabeltran profile image79
      ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      ha- ha lol did you pause for effect in your mind?

  17. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    I just looked at the eyes. That cat is blissed out!!!!!! lol

  18. earnestshub profile image87
    earnestshubposted 7 years ago

    I love rats! My son had two as pets when a teenager. As you say, they are clean and really great pets. We have an Eclectus parrot who is a character too. smile

    1. lxxy profile image60
      lxxyposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Agreed! I never knew. All I knew was I was tired of getting bitten by hamsters.

      Parrots..I'm not sure of the Eclectus type, but the few I've known are often quite full of personality. They just tend to hate me for some reason.

      I've always kinda wanted a budgie, but I don't like keeping birds personally. Though, that's my thing, and to each their own. smile They are groovy animals.

      1. earnestshub profile image87
        earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Eric has a great sense humour! He chats away, and if he wants a particular food he sure lets you know.

        The dogs and cats are terrified of Eric, he is one very pushy person. smile
        My son works in animal husbandry, and has for many years had all sorts of animals at home. His wife runs a dog grooming business and loves it.
        All animal lovers here! smile

        1. Eric Graudins profile image62
          Eric Graudinsposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, that's very unfair of you Earnest!
          I'm only  pushy to SOME  people cool

          And I'll have some prawns wrapped in bacon please! lol

          cheers,
          Eric G.

          (Its amazing what you find when you click on the "latest posts thing !)

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            G'day Eric! I tried to stir your possum on another thread, but no bites! Hope all is well in the apple isle. smile
            Prawns in bacon..... yummmmm!

  19. lxxy profile image60
    lxxyposted 7 years ago

    Must go for now guys! Off to watch Virtuosity! wink

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Catch you later Ixxy. smile

  20. ceciliabeltran profile image79
    ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago

    Example :

    If Mary was a Virgin Mother, then Joseph and Mary did not have sex because Angel Gabriel was first? TO have sex with Mary? NO silly. She is the Virgin Mother. They did not have sex, he just announced that G-d put Jesus in Mary's womb. How? He is G-d! He can do anything He wants!

    All logical.

    However this is illogical to the religious.

    The Virgin Mother is an allusion to Pagan stages of femininity representing Innocence and Nurturance/Life giving.

    The Angel Gabriel represents the aspect of of Heroic consciousness and when he visited Mary...it means she took on courage to fulfill a mission to keep her child alive despite the persecution she faces. She saw the challenge as a blessing and a mission.

  21. ceciliabeltran profile image79
    ceciliabeltranposted 7 years ago

    okay I can take a hint the thread is dead.

    1. schoolgirlforreal profile image74
      schoolgirlforrealposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      I "hate" atheists!!!!! LOL
      Just kIdding
      I do disagree
      and thhis is all about agreeing or disagreeing-----
      as JOY56 put it (with the purple hair)
      SHE IS A BELIEVER BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE HER AN ILLOGICAL THINKER.
      Obviously some non-belivers may SAY she is illogical in beliveing, but what is that---NONE OF THIER BUSINESS.
      BELIEVE IF YOU WANT............AND IF YOU DON'T DON'T.
      Just don't go around saying someone is crazy or illogical if they don't agree with YOU!!!!
      [Am I heard??] Am I??!!

      1. schoolgirlforreal profile image74
        schoolgirlforrealposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Oh......please read my hub on I refuse to deny Christ!

        Thank you all for participating.......or was it someone else who started this thread??
        Well, I know it started w/ my Words.

      2. Randy Godwin profile image93
        Randy Godwinposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        The judges in the Salem Witch trials, most highly respected by believers, decided god wanted them to kill the witches.  They murdered innocent citizens and jailed small children because they thought they were doing god's work.  And we are just supposed to say nothing against this same "logic" being spewed by today's chosen believers?  Not a chance!

        1. earnestshub profile image87
          earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          What is even harder to comprehend emotionally is that they are still killing children because they think they are witches in Africa as we write!

  22. profile image70
    paarsurreyposted 7 years ago

    You say religious believers are illogical?

    crmhaske wrote:
    "Some atheists are guilty of this same crime."

    Paarsurrey says:

    Most of the Atheists Agnostics are illogical; that is why they resort to ridicule and become abusive as soon as or most of the time they engage in a discussion. They just cannot live without that; having no ethical, moral or spiritual code to follow; most illogical persons.

    Thanks

    I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

    1. earnestshub profile image87
      earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      Most atheists and Agnostics do no such thing!

      Most live moral and decent lives instead of trying to scare people into believing in fairys! smile
      You caste moral aspersions because that's what you do. ... moralize.

      I would rather just get on with my life rather than waste it trying to convince others of my god because I don't believe in it myself! Hypocrisy! smile

    2. Beelzedad profile image57
      Beelzedadposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      My, my, my, we can look back through your post history quite easily to see the ridicule and abuse you have bestowed on us all in almost every thread and every post made. How very sad it is to see your words now. sad

  23. IntimatEvolution profile image79
    IntimatEvolutionposted 7 years ago

    Well we have a couple of people on hubpages, who think you have to be "born again."  They are rude about it, cruel about it, and blinded by Christian racism and hate.

    To me, they are illogical.

    1. schoolgirlforreal profile image74
      schoolgirlforrealposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      everybody's illogical if they don't do or believe as you want.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image60
        Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Sorry you do not know what "logical" means. Did you even go to school?
        lol

        Religionists...........................................

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image74
          schoolgirlforrealposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Of course! I went to college and acquired my associates.  I can also speak French and follow Latin fluently.

          Are you always so of good cheer and full of compliments?

          Perhaps you have a bit of a Scrooge in you, eh?  (I guess that means you'll be needing Absolution and Communion (as a result of Transubstansation--do you know what that is??)  Hmmm.  Or maybe an exorcism??
          Either way, I pray for you.

          Dear Lord,
          Please help this man, Mark Knowles
          to see your light and Truth and have mercy on his soul.
          Amen.

          Good day to you Sir.  I pray the demons stop possessing you...

          1. earnestshub profile image87
            earnestshubposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            Funny how demons possess people who don't agree with you.
            You certainly know your stuff!
            lol lol lol

          2. Mark Knowles profile image60
            Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

            LOL

            How logical is that? Someone disagrees with you - therefore they are possessed by demons. Not only that - but you think there is a Invisible Super Being you can ask to intervene to stop the demons.

            I am not possessed by demons - The Invisible Super Being must have stopped it - therefore your beliefs are valid. That how that is gonna work? wink

            1. Stump Parrish profile image61
              Stump Parrishposted 7 years ago in reply to this

              I understood every word you posrtd therefore I must be possessed by demons. Thanks, I was looking forward to a productive day. Now I gotta swing by the church for a demon deep cleaning and spritual waxing.

  24. wilmiers77 profile image59
    wilmiers77posted 7 years ago

    Randy, you are looking at the wrong so-called Christians; look at Christ Jesus. At one time or another, every authority in the world has claimed that they represent the will of God. WRONG!

    1. schoolgirlforreal profile image74
      schoolgirlforrealposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      you know this is going no where, right? haha oh well.

      Halleluiah......Halleluiah Halleluiah Hallelu---u--u----aih!
      Leonard cohen
      K.D. Lang
      Sheryl Crow

      all sing this song :]

  25. aka-dj profile image79
    aka-djposted 7 years ago

    The truth is not about "I'm right and your wrong".

    It's about knowing what the truth is. Then declaring that.

    Jesus said (about Himself) "I Am the way, the TRUTH and THE life..." I have discovered that, and declare it. Not complicated. The question then remains, do YOU believe that? Have YOU discovered that?

    The apostle John states it like this "That which we have seen, and heard, ...we declare to you" 1 John 1:3

    Either this statement is true, or it is false. I made my choice. You need to also.

    If we disagree, then it stands to reason we can't both be right. I would have thought this is logic in it's simplest form. hmm

  26. aguasilver profile image89
    aguasilverposted 7 years ago

    I think her statement was based upon observation rather than logic, but I guess with one eye stuck to a camera, you probably cannot see the obvious.

    I know it took me a fair while to realise who used to pull my strings, when I did what you do.... try to decry God and goad believers.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

      LOL Sure it is. Some one doesn't like liars - they are automatically labeled as being possessed by demons. Makes perfect sense really. Well - it would do if we were back in the dark ages when "believers" were burning witches for not believing (hating god) or disagreeing with you (possessed by demons). lol

      Thank goodness we have moved on from people like you having any power at all. God does not exist. You speak for you. No one else. You have no authority. None.

      1. aguasilver profile image89
        aguasilverposted 7 years ago in reply to this

        Keep repeating your mantra Mark, if you prattle on with it long enough, even you will believe it.

        Going to try and find some intelligent conversation now.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 7 years ago in reply to this

          Another personal attack? Odd that you never ever address my statements other than to attack me. Oh well - that is what your "moral code" dictates I suppose. Dear me. sad

          Thank goodness your religion is dying out and you and your ilk have no authority at all any more. 2000 years of people behaving the way you do is more than enough.

 
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