How the people who do not think there is God get so uppity when talking to/about the believers. The lofty all-knowing position they take never ceases to amuse me. I mean, do be vehement in your non-belief but why do you have to rub it in with words that hurt?
Accusing people of being "uppity" "lofty" and "all knowing" when they disagree with you probably has something to do with it. Provoking them by starting threads like this may also have some bearing.
Your lofty, all knowing, uppity, certain knowledge without knowing anything does not amuse me per se. Generally believers seem intent on causing a fight, which is not very amusing. See your original post.
I hope none of the words I have used will hurt your feelings. Perhaps if you got Jesus to shield you from this unwarranted, unprovoked persecution? IDK - It is not as though you started this thread to attack non-believers or anything - is it?
Well, I have just described the attitude taken by people. In fact I deliberately refrained from not using the words.believe me. I Have not made them up my self.
Sorry - your English did not make sense. Please repeat your self and try to be more clear. Thanks.
Well, I did not invent the words. They have always been there and precisely describe the attitude taken by non-believers towards the hapless believers. Why can't we be a little more amicable, is all I ask
I see. And you think starting a thread asking why non believers are so "uppity" "lofty" and "all knowing" when speaking to "hapless" believers is a good way to go about that?
I honestly thought that it was a good way to start..
Interesting. This is actually the root cause of conflicts started by people like yourself. This passive aggressive way of starting a conversation is guaranteed to put people on the defensive. But - this is how your religion teaches you to behave. Perhaps - with a conversation - we could start to unlearn this way of doing things? Lets try.
Do you think it is reasonable that I get defensive at your opening statement? Or are you happy that you were just being honest - I mean - after all this is just how you see non believers - and any conflict is all down to me not taking on board your perfectly valid criticism?
Um, really. Do you often start pleasant conversations by making derogatory comments?
Not to intrude, but this thread was doomed from the start. One already knew that such comments would escalate to some kind of controversy. Just eludes to how people of such stature really are, there always has to be a contest of who is the most obnoxious. And who really wins or even cares for that matter?
Being Bi-Polar allows me to examine both sides of most issues and the existence of God is certainly been a subject of interest. It is my belief that there has to be more to life than what we experience every single day otherwise what's the point. For the so called lofty, and I have met a few, there belief is no more no less than my belief though you can pick up some thought that you may have over looked. The lofty as you describe are meerly fearful. I believe I read, to be fearful of God; and some people are over compensating. I do hope they make make into Gods kingdom, some of them can be annoying. Annoying to the point that you have to get away from them. Tell them let me think about this and talk about something else of mutual interest.
This looks like a an easy question to understand.
I hope that you were truly asking a question???
You have already gotten a couple of honest answers from the object of the question.
I wish that "Beleivers" could talk about their different prospectives of scriptures without waving a red flag. I'm starting to think that will never happen.
I've seen a few "clean" conversations such as suggested above ... And they were hijacked any way.
I've also seen nonbelievers staying out of this section not interupting and traffic dies. So maybe the conflict is keeping it alive?
I'm starting to wonder if there are any answers?
I'm starting to wonder what the question IS that needs answered ?
Maybe the one origionally posted is as good as any?
Now lets listen, "realy" listen to the answers.
"O" if we only lived in a perfect world.
There should be no problem. Believers need only remind themselves that their gods will have their way with those irritating non-believers when he casts them into a fiery pit to burn for an eternity.
You can cheer for your god, now. It should help you get over the hurt.
You know, there is really no place called hell. No one is going to fry you there till eternity. God is not that cruel.
Anyway, I started this thread to express my anguish/amusement at the hostile position taken by non-believers at the drop of a hat. Their defensive reaction only shows that they are sensitive beyond reason which is not really necessary. I meant to ask why they do that. Why do they always have to wave a red cloth as if to a bull? Come one, we are not bulls.
Can some one who believes in Jesus be a bull?
We are as tame as your koala bear. Yes, we are.
In fact, we love non-believers just like we love anybody else, believe me. We only want them to understand this.
Yes, gods are cruel, any holy book will show that. If you want to argue about whether hell exists or not, you're probably best to do with believers.
Would that drop of a hat be believers telling us how to live our lives, and if we don't live it that way, we'll be sent to an eternity of hellfire?
So, it's perfectly acceptable for believers to tell us how to live but it's not acceptable for us to be defensive towards this zeal?
Simple, we don't believe in myths and superstitions and don't want to be told how to live our lives based on those myths and superstitions.
Trying to convince us of one thing while doing another isn't going to help us understand that position.
It is amusing. They do get uppity. But unlike you I do believe there's a hell, and I think that the uppity ones will probably go there for being uppity.
because your belief is salt in raw nerve...you hurt them by believing.
I'd say it is exactly the opposite. It seems to me that it is the theists who say they know all answers - and the answer to anything that science hasn't figured out yet is always the same, isn't it?
As an atheist, I don't claim to know everything and I'm quite happy with that. Psychologists sometimes guess that most people are religious because their brains strongly desire explanations for everything.
Perhaps that is true, but it is yet another thing I do not know. I'm curious as to why some of us are theists and some are not, but I don't need to make up an answer.
I don't think I am "uppity". If you don't force your beliefs on me, I'm quite happy for you to have them. Perhaps the beliefs help you; I hope that they do. They wouldn't help me :-)
I have seen my share of lofty all-knowing believers too that have attitudes; not just Christians either.
I think that most of us have tripped over that stone from time to time.
It is important that we don't get confortable standing on that high place.
Believers should help each other to not do that.
And remember to not spank our neighbors children.
The harder any person disagrees, provokes, attacks, etc., any other person only seems to expose the deep unrest and trouble that person is trying to rid himself/herself of. Justifying an idea that doesn't work or make sense is crazy-making. Defending it means there is fear of losing part of one's self. Forcing at all costs to make it work, somehow when it doesn't. It seems to apply to believers and non-believers.
Fear God, they say. Fear covers anger in most cases. That anger seems to be alive and well among believers and nonbelievers. So it would seem that fear rules most attacks, most vehement, nonpeaceful disagreements.
I really don't know that any of what I'm saying is true in all cases. I only know my own experience, and when I get worked up over someone else and what they did or said, I usually come to the realization that it says more about me (and the reaction it caused in me) than it does about the other person. If I'm at peace with myself, I usually don't feel provoked or a need to fight back. I see their words/actions as theirs, and it becomes their issue/drama.
What "uppity" means? Is it beyond pity or above it?
Sorry I am just a dumb immigrant. Hopefully I will go to the fiery pit in winter. It's so cold in Canada in winter! Not in July, please. In my apartment in July you feel like you are in hell already. Yesterday my cat tried to climb the fan.
Atheists make up only 2 percent of the population of the United States. What I don't understand is why they have to be so angry all the time. They say that religion is being shoved down their throats, but I don't see it. No one is telling, anyone to go to church against their will, or you have to believe in God against their will. I mean you can believe or not believe whatever you want, why degrade people who believe something different than yourself. I'm just saying I don't understand. If you don't believe in God, why participate in threads that clearly are not what you believe, If not to try to shove it down a believers throat.
When you do see it, you'll understand, then.
I think that stat is off.
Then obvious you only look in one direction and see what you choose to pay attention to and only understand what you choose to learn.
You are missing the point, because you see nothing wrong with your own actions. Believers(I was one) love to talk about "god", for which, they themselves cannot prove exists. There is no talking about delusions or myths or superstitions, as if they're real. There is a huge difference.
There is a difference in belief, because of a lack of knowledge and understanding between the two people who are talking. Should a believer choose to believe in a delusion, and tries to pass that same delusion to others(but others see through it), then it is being forced.
It's about getting things straight, and to get rid of delusions affecting a great number of people. It is important that logic, sanity and reason is to remain a primary dominate roll in our life. No delusions, no myths and no superstitions are necessary to live.
Just a thought.
Problems with this. Your conclusion that theistic belief is a 'delusion' is based on your assumption that theistic belief is untrue. That's an assumption because you can't satisfy any evidentialist criterion of knowledge for it. Indeed that's exactly the same issue that theists have with theistic belief.
You may feel your assumption is more likely to be true, or more probable, but it's an assumption none the less. In epistemological terms therefore your argument is no more correct or incorrect than that of the theist.
Unfortunately people (theists and non) tend to forget, or simply don't realise that their beliefs are essentially assumptions that they've come to believe are true for various reasons (including historical, socio-political, cultural and psychological reasons).
People then go on to form world views based on their assumptions and label everyone who holds a different assumption as 'delusional', 'stupid', 'ill', 'evil', 'damned', 'sinful' etc. They then set about trying to convince those others of their delusional or sinful state.
Ultimately we don't like being told that our fundamental beliefs (the assumptions we live our lives by) are incorrect. The result? Theists and non-theists being 'uppity'.
It's the epistemological equivalent of two children in a playground arguing over who has the best marbles, not realising that in essence their marbles are identical.
You assume too much yourself Don. The first assumption is that you know or understand me. I'm not a theist or an atheist.
But, you are more than welcome to you opinion. So, do enjoy yourself.
Not possible that some of us intentionally do this to make a point?
I don't even own any marbles - but - once again you compare the one with the invisible super powerful marble that knows what you should be doing as being exactly the same as the one saying "I see no marble, therefore there ain't no marble, please stop telling me there is."
Exactly the same. Not possible that the one saying "there ain't no marble," would never say this in the first place.
No buildings built in honor of the marble? No wars fought over which color the marble is?
No new guys saying their marble is bigger than anyone else's marble and persuading their women to cover their faces becoz the marble sed so?
OK - I have absolutely no need to laugh at the guys with the invisible marbles.
Not even here.
Using your analogy, which is slightly different from mine, in saying "I see no marble, therefore there ain't no marble", you are in fact saying "my approach to knowledge is based on the criteria of what I can see, hear, taste, smell and touch. I see no marble, therefore according to the criteria used in my approach to knowledge, there is no marble"
So your 'knowledge' that 'there is no marble' is the application of a set of criteria formed around another assumption: that knowledge of what we refer to as reality, arises through sense experience (including sensory augmentations of scientific instruments etc). There is nothing intrinsically valid or invalid about this belief. It's merely a supposition that may or may not be true.
The fact that someone believes in a type of marble that does not meet the criteria for your approach to knowledge could indeed mean that it doesn't exist. On the other hand it could equally mean that the assumption at the heart of your approach to knowledge is incorrect. Which is it? I don't know, and that's the point, we can only surmise. So that's what we do.
What determines which way we go? I think it's all those social, cultural, historical factors etc. Whichever way we guess, everyone would like to claim that what they 'know' is in fact the truth. In reality one guess is as good as another.
On the contrary, There is a great deal of archeological, biological, astronomical and cosmological evidence that does place some of the beliefs in question and doubt, perhaps even refutes some of the doctrine altogether.
If so, don't you think a book that touts the word of a god be dead accurate and not have such issues?
For as much evidence that science has provided to date which casts doubt over scriptures, what have theists provided as evidence?
How is this the same?
I think Mark put this point well into perspective already. Invisible super marbles, indeed.
well christian bible belting is primitive, I agree. But when you read it in heirogylphs, that's when it starts to sound like something physicists would agree on. Kabbalists (the real ones) have an understanding of the cosmological value of the basis for the bible, the Torah. So I wouldn't do a second burning session just yet.
Okay, how about this you believe what you want, I will believe what I want, and neither of us will try to convince the other otherwise.
I don't have to convince them, I just decide for myself what I believe and anyone else who do not agree, that's their problem. End of Story. Anyone who what's to arue the point will be arguing with themselves, at least if it is aimed at me.
Fair enough. Unfortunately, there are still billions of believers who would have us live as they decide how we should live and will tell us what to believe and what god to obey.
It's very nice that you seem to not be volatile as so many appear to be. Thanks for that.
A general comment, not directed at anyone: I think this life is hell enough. It's up to us to make it otherwise. If we do make it otherwise, we will most likely keep that understanding with us.
sorry my typing sucks sometimes, I just meant if a person wants to argue with me will only end up argueing with themselves, I won't participate.
Yes I know those people are out there, ready to pounce no doubt. I know I have grown up in churches all my life and even when I was in church I still got lectures, etc. But I learned not to let them get to me. People who are trying to convince you of something, make me wonder what they are selling. Now don't get me wrong I still believe in God but I don't believe in the person. I think sometimes they are that way because of problems in their own lives. I just choose to say to radical religious folks as well as atheists, I believe how I want to believe,(that's the beauty of America)and I will not try to convince you otherwise. And hope you will afford me the same respect. If not you will be shut out. Period.
So, that means, you are willing to shut off your own ability to learn from others. Good to know for future communications.
No problem. Here's the kicker.
You are free to believe in gods, but the question is one of honesty to oneself, not to others. If you can convince yourself you are being honest about your beliefs, then you will gain the respect you deserve. If there is a shred of doubt in your beliefs, then perhaps you're not being honest with yourself, hence the respect will disintegrate. And of course, there is plenty of doubt with religions.
Your right there is plenty of doubt, on both sides in my opinion, I mean really God has not come to me in an audible voice and said Here I am, Nor has anyone come back from the dead and said there nothing after death, and so on. I mean noone really knows anything for absolute certainty if they say they do they are lying. So doubt is always there. Respect for one another has nothing to do with doubt in my opinion at least. I respect you in your beliefs whatever they are, I think it is actually working against God to argue the point. At least I hope you understand that not all Christians(in my case) are trying to shove anything down your throat. It is what it is, and I hope we can respect each other enough to agree to disagree.
I would agree with you there, but you can see there are many who make those claims, not just Christians. All there is really to go on is a book which has been changed several times over the centuries, a book written by men who claim exactly the same thing you say are lies.
It's interesting that most believers cannot fathom a world without their gods, while the rest of us can easily fathom a world without gods, we just look out our windows.
Yes I see your point, that is why we call it faith, beleiving in something that might not show itself in a tangeable way. Yes the Bible has been translated so many times that it is hard to know what is true or not, as well as there were from what I understand religious groups who actually made it a point to edit the Bible in some degree. And yes the bible was written by man, by devine inspiration, so they said. But it is more than just a religious book, it is also a history book. Many things that are in the bible, after some research have in fact shown to be true, I'm talking about certain events, places and such. So yes it is hard to fathom a world with no God for me, but I also think that God is not as magical as some would have us believe, things that happen, happen naturally.
I'm not saying that what they say from the Bible are lies, I say that if they believe it without a shadow of a doubt, thats a lie. Because noone has real irrfutible proof.
Uh, actually the bible has been shown to be quite wrong regarding a number of claims it makes. Those claims that have been shown to be wrong cast doubt on other claims in the bible.
They did believe without a shadow of a doubt when they wrote the bible. They did believe god spoke to them. If you say these are lies, then you would admit the bible is built on lies.
Okay I see where this is going. Thanks for the correspondance and exchanging different views is always enlightening, but I think it is time for me to go. Good Luck to you it was a very nice exchange.Hope all goes well.
It is amazing that the non-believers shove their views down the throats of those who think that there is some kind of God or there is some semblance. It is only incidental that it is Christianity that automatically bears the cross of their biased view. Would they say the same thing about Hinduism or Buddhism? Or, even the fanatic ( for all PRACTICAL purposes) Islam?
Why don't they accept that Christians are peace-loving and want to be as amiable with them as possible?
It does seem more focused on Christianity. They do seem a bigoted bunch. Some of them wax lyrical about other shamanistic stuff, so it's not that they hate all religion. Their main hatred seems to be Christianity. I figure since it's the most populous religion, it's the biggest target.
A lot of them seem to have a bad experience with Christianity and therefore think the whole things is a big conspiracy. Meanwhile they go on to a true modern conspiracy, Climate Change!!!
"non-believers shove their views down the throats". Is it the non-believers that have fought tooth and nail to promote PUBLIC prayer in schools and political functions? Why can't they simply talk to their sky fairy in the privacy of their own homes instead of shoving it down the throats of gullible children and making other folk wait while they perform their nonsense?
Who is it promoting the concept of the sky fairy creating everything and demanding that their mythology be taught in schools as a valid scientific theory?
Who is it denying people the right to marry because they are sinners and can't follow the edicts and demands of the myth?
Who insisted that our national pledge suddenly include language promoting the sky fairy to reality?
Who insists that we have their religious symbols on PUBLIC land (land that I am a co-owner of)?
I have never had a non-believer (or hindu or moslem or anyone but christians) banging on my door while demanding that I convert.
Who gets all the tax breaks for their personal clubs (called churches) instead of helping support the country like all the others?
The list goes on and on. I agree there seems to be a lot "pushing down throats" but it isn't done by the non-believers. Just maybe they have a real reason to be irritated by all the pushing.
If you mean that those other religions have equal credibility as Christianity, that would be correct.
We've read the bible, too.
I don't defend all believers, but to us believers that love God and follow His Son's examples of love want to tell others the good news. My attitude is man, you can't miss this! Those Two will win in the end every time.
But do you recognise there is a time and place for this (like when/where people are actually interested), and desist when requested to? Or do you do the equivalent of running into a vegatrian restaurant and telling everyone they need to eat steak until you are thrown out?
Yes - You refuse to respect other people and that is why your ridiculous religious always has and always will cause conflict.
My attitude is - "Rubbish - please keep this nonsense to yourself."
But - that will not stop you will it? Because you love me so much - you will totally ignore what I say because you know what is best for me.
If the rest of us have already read the bible, what would be the point of telling us what we already know?
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