Some say the Bible can't be relied on to speak for God because it was written by man and It contaradicts itself.
Can anyone point out; a specific instance(s) or passage(s) in the Bible that is contadictory, to another passaage or instance(s)?
Yes, I foget what passage it is, but Jesus says, you can not trust a man.
Or in the old testament, Job says to the preist, who are you to tell me how I should speak to the Lord or what it is that I have sinned.
Or Timothy, who says go to your room and close the door and pray to the lord in seceret, and his father says, he is to be trusted.
or my particular favorite:
In Revelations 22:10, Don't seal the prophetic words of this book, because the time is near. Let the unrightous go on in unrightousness; let the filthy go on being made filthy; let the rightous go on in righteousness; and the holy go on being made holy.
So after the John was told not to seal the prophetic words of the book, he ends the book with.
Revelations 22;18- I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book. And if anyones takes away from the words of this prophetic book, God will take away his share of the tree of life and the holy city, written in this book. (So he sealed it anyways)
I think it all has to do with perception. a spiritual interaction with God is subjective...totally individual. Some people define words and phrases differently, because they have had different experiences in life. words can be symbolic, metaphorical and not always literal. and each person interprets words in any of these different ways at different times.
I recall many times I have read a passage when I wasn't in what I call my Christ Mind...and perceived it differently than the times I was.
For instance, when I perceive when I read what Jesus said about not trusting a man's words, I interpret that from my own experiences of study of spiritual/scriptual works....and interpret as...not being able to trust the human consciousness, but only trusting the Christ consciousness words through another...but how I define and recognize the difference, I have developed from my own experiences and can't define the way to anyone else...not completely anyway...sometimes I feel that connection with another person...where I know that person gets what I mean, or some portion at least, because we are connected at our Christ Mind level of consciousness.
Keep pursuing peace and peace will be yours, It will sustain you, it will open the door of wisdom to you, a door that will never be closed, and neither peace nor wisdom, will ever leave your side. For these things are gifts; that God gives to those who seek him in earnest, and having once found Him, share that understanding with others.
Perception and disernment, are also gifts, form God. Thanks for participating.
You are right in saying that many passages can be interpreted differently. However, choosing a particular interpretation that suits your beliefs is what many people tend to do, and that is WRONG interpretation. There is a proper interpretation, the intended meaning, and you need to take into account who is speaking, who is being spoken to, culture, events and circumstances surrounding the characters, and without this knowledge you will never truely comprehend scripture. The characters in the Bible were not Americans, they were Jews, ancient Jews, for the vast most part. If you do not take the time to learn about ancient Israel, their practices and customs, and studying the Old Testament, you will not truly comprehend scripture. For example, did you know, that the animal sacrificial system in the O.T. only had ONE sacrifice that covered INTENTIONAL sin?? It was a NATIONAL sacrifice, I.E: one sacrifice performed by the High Priest that covered a National sin the NATION of Israel was guilty of. (Usually following false gods.) But there was not any sacrifice that covered an individual's intentional sin. Not one. So how did they receive forgiveness for intentional sin? 1)Repentence
2)Punishment up to and sometimes including death.
So how did the Israelites know what to not do? THE LAW! The Law reveals sin- what God approves and disapproves of. It is OUR responsibility to avoid INTENTIONAL sin.
"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses Law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God under foot, counting the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the spirit of grace?" -Hebrews 10:26-29.
In other words, sinning intentionally is slapping Jesus in the face, and in other words STILL- Jesus' sacrifice DOES NOT COVER INTENTIONAL SIN. The contradiction- Paul says himself that if you try to keep the Law, you make out Christ's sacrifice to be in vain. DOOMED! Christians are so DOOMED!! Bible is so full of holes it is not even funny.
and your interpretation is more right then Jewels or mine or some guy down the street?
OK, Sandy you gave me a couple of easy ones, so here goes.
When Jesus speaks of trusting no man, he means that.
The Holy Scriptures are words written by man, but inspired by the Holy Spirit. Even Jesus refered to the scriptures while preaching, and in defense agains Satan.
When He/Jesus went into the wilderness after bing baptized and Santan, promised him all the kingdomes of the world, if he would perform an act of worship, to him. Jesus began his reply to Satan, with "It' is Written," referring to the Holy Scriptures.
Rev. 22:10 refers to the seals of the profecy, and that once the truth is open to all men, that it is not to be hidden again. That truth being God's purpose to let mankind live forever, and the destruction of this system of things.
Rev. 22:18, is God's way of warning; that any man that does tamper with the Scriptures, by adding or taking away form them; with the intent of sabotaging Gods message, will face consequences.
Might not clear it up for You completely but that's the gyst of it.
I consider this a lesson learned about Jesus. Especially when it comes to Revelations. You do make a lot of sense, its with the intent of sabataging Gods message.
How could people reconcile this dispute? I guess learn this "truth" when considering God as I am faithful only to God and what is true to me about life. I learned your side of God as the truth, now learn my side.
It's a good lesson today, thank you.
These are all valid points however all unbelievers must get one thing very clear in their minds: the Word of God is a living book and it does not promise to make it's meaning's clear to anyone who (from the heart) who refuses to first be open to God and trust Him. God is NOT obligated to give the clear meaning of His Word to those whom He already knows reject Him from their heart, that would be a waste.
1st Corinthians 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish [disbelieve] foolishness; but unto us which are saved [believers] it is the power of God.
1st Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man [unbeliever] receiveth not [does not comprehend] the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned [understood from a spiritual vantage point].
But you see unbelievers can not understand the Bible properly and believe they see "seeming contradictions" because in reality they can NOT see at all, they are wearing blinders on the eyes of their hearts (the only eyes they can see the Bible with).
2nd Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not..."
So you see unbelievers could not understand the Bible even if they tried their hardest. They only way they can see properly is if they first believe.
The world says, "seeing is believing" but God says "believe first and you'll see clearly what has been hidden from you by Satan".
But the question is are unbelievers like Sandra going to be willing to believe God and submit to His Son for salvation first so that then He will give them the understanding they need?
Or will they just continue to dismiss the Bible and relegate it to folklore because that path soothes their coscience that reminds them everytime they see a Bible that they will stand before a Holy and Righteous sin hating God and will give an account for their lives.
If they are not willing they are really not willing to see the Bible properly and they shouldn't make accusations about the Bible that it has contradictions all because their finite minds can't piece it together.
The truly sad thing is the carnal [unsaved] man can't know or understand this as long as he remains unsaved. Only by receiving Christ Jesus as your Savior can your knowledge of the things of God begin to be opened.
John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things...".
But here is the most important thing for us all:
Romans 5:8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.";
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
I pray that all of you [who do not know Christ] will perceive the truth and receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
The Bible was written under the inspiration of God by man. (2 Timothy 3:16)
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
There's something about the scriptures, it is supposed to be a history book by many. I have read, seen and heard many who don't even believe in it but strongly copy and refer to it, why? They are Spirit and Life (John 6:63) It is beyond the Logos (written letters). You see, God has given to every man, a "free will" to make choices and become all he can ever think of for Man is a Spirit and will only understand God's word, plan and purpose by His Spirit! (Job 32:8):
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
If you will see the way God sees, keep the play of religion and our human abilities aside, you will understand by His Spirit that the Scriptures do not contradict. Believe it in the next 2,000 years to come if the earth remains, this written word will ever be Spirit and Life to all generations. By the power of the Holy Spirit I do strongly restrain myself from disputing the Word of God but walking in Love daily with every man for this is one and only ultimate Law.
Thank you and God bless you all! I love you all!!!
Condratictions is the way of the mystics as both the ying and yang exist.Ex.Jesus says "I am the son of God" then he also says "me and my father(god) are one.Both are correct.Holy books are written by enlightened ones who are godmen,or by their disciples who have assimilated the truth.There is a chance of them deciphering the truth wrongly if they havent got enlightened themselves.Like the Guru Granth Sahib which is collection of poems from the Prophet Guru Nanak and the master poets like Kabir.For them the book is god talking to you.Open any page and it will have relevance to your life at that moment.It is only a master who can write a masterpiece and an ordinary man cannot as he doesnt possess the intelligence or the energy required to carry out such an ardous task.The Bible is similarly a masterpiece with many masters putting in their knowledge.Jesus never wrote the Bible.
Hi friends Jeromeo
5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed with a white robe: and they were astonished.
4 And it came to pass, as they were astonished in their mind at this, behold, two men stood by them, in shining apparel.
Mark mention one man; Maethew two.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
If you want the full list, try this site:
Here are a few from other sources:
"The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father..." -- Ezekiel 18:20
"I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation..." -- Exodus 20:5
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- James 1:13
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..." -- Genesis 22:1
"Honor thy father and thy mother..."-- Exodus 20:12
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. " -- Luke 14:26
As you're probably well aware, the Gospels contradict each other frequently on the details of Jesus' life and death. Personally I don't think that's a huge deal - as we all know, get four witnesses to a crime to make a statement, and you'll get four different recollections. The biggest contradictions are in the Old Testament.
Let no man bear the inequityof his father...the Bible makes the distinction, tht i nthe case of those Sons, who continue inthe ways of there fathers, stealing comiting adultry and idolotry, in those case they will inherit, their father's punishment, because they practice their father's trespasses against God.
But if they should break away and not commit the sinns of there fathers then they will not, be visited by the punishment.
I must confess that one was one I had a problem with too.
It was God that said Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother, that Thy days may be long upon this Earth. This is said to be the only commandment with a promise.
Any man come to me, and not [hate] in the bible hate can be taken to mean love less. This is Jesus saying that any man that think it more important to follow his Father sister or Mother, as opposed to following him is not worthy of him and is rejecting everlasting life by doing so.
Many people believe the same false religious doctrines that the fore fathers and fathers do. Many when introduced to the truth are dissuaded form practicing it by their family members, and these are the ones jesus is speaking of hating.
But once again the, the word hate in this instance means if you love them more than yu love me, so that you refuse to listen to me, and the life saving message I bring to you.
As for the rest Ms. Wright, I'll look into, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, for the other contradictions you spoke of.
So that none of you will think, that I just tossed this question out there, and then ran form the explosion; and hid under my bed. I will research each on of the instenses submitted and reply, in the mean time, please be patient.
I like the way Jewel pharsed her response. some times our preseption of what we read depends on our frame of mine and reference. And thanks for the home work.
Hey Jeromeo, I just got your book in the mail. I have two books ahead of it to read, but when I am finished with it, I will give you my review. Thanks again!
So true, So true, So very very true.
Which is why I don't enter your fantasy land or "Imagine...." anything you ask me to...
If you get in the right frame of mind you can literally imagine anything and contradictions will be lifted and dissapear.
Not just with the bible or spirituality but anything at all..
Jeromeo, I would have more confidence in your explanations if you quoted where in the BIble these explanations appear. If they are not explained in the Bible, then where did you get the explanation from? Who are you, or anyone else, to say, "Those words in the Bible don't really mean what they say, they mean something else"?
You can't have it both ways - if the words in the Bible have to be interpreted and explained instead of taken at their face value, then you can't take any of the words as literal truth.
Marisa, you have hit the nail on the head once again.
It is amazingly convenient to be able to interpret the Bible (or indeed, any religious text) in this way. One accepts the bits one likes and which suit ones current lifestyle, and promotes these as being the true word of God, and relegates the bits one is uncomfortable with, or which one cannot adequately explain, to the level of textual/historical aberrations which must not be taken at face value. Very convenient!
And isn't the biggest, most brazen and most bare-faced contradiction of all the one where God Himself issues the clear and unequivocal commandment that "Thou shalt not kill" and then proceeds to smash, smite and exterminate pretty well everyone and everything that gets in His way?
Or perhaps this shouldn't be taken at face value ....?
I was just clearifying the passages you referenced Marisa. Not trying to have it both ways. It does no one any good; to site a scriptue and taken it out of context, then prolcaim it to be
You may want ot look for the deeper meanig in the scriptures you read. If you are intent on finding fault with the Bible; nothing I say or show you will make the slightest bit of difference.
The Bible has a divine purpose, so I read with an understanding of the true purpose of the Bible, not with an eye to dispute the Bible's intent, so I can justify my disbelief, or lack of faith.
I am a person who has studied the Bible, and the Devine principles, upon which it is written; for the past 25 years.
I grew up with the same misguided understanding, that the Bible was written by man and contradicted itself, and believed that as long as it suited me and my heathen life style.
However the Bible didn't change when I changed my life style, I accepted the Bible for what it says and not what others whould have me believe it says; or what was convienent and comfortable for me.
You wrote that a contradiction appears when in James 1:13, says that God temps no man. Then you use Genesis 22:1, to try to show that God tempted Abraham.
God did not tempt Abraham, He tested, Abraham, test his faith and his willingnes to be obiedient, based on that faith. But if you understand neither the principle of faith or obiedience, then the continuity of the scriptures is lost to you.
If you look for reasos to reject the truth once it is presented then you choose to remain in the dark.
The point of objective discussion is to compare what you think you know with what you have yet to learn. But if you are motivated by the need to justify being wrong then you will remain, unenlightened. And I'm comfortable with that if you are.
Jeromeo, I am not comfortable with your explanations about the generational nature of iniquity and punishment.
I will not speak to the contradiction here, but i will point out that "the sins of the fathers will be visited upon the sons unto the seventh generation" is not a sentence pronounced in punishment but a description of what actually occurs.
A "sin" is a mistake.
Mistakes of the fathers (for example, abusing alcohol) AFFECT the sons. The multigenerational impact of co-dependence is well-documented.
I, myself, am in the fourth or fifth generation, depending where you start counting, from an alcoholic, and we are all still grappling with the patterns of codependence and resulting emotional issues, so I can attest to the truth of the observation that it takes seven generations to recover - assuming, of course, that none of those intervening generations add anything new to the mix ...
My Father, was a member of a bomber crew in the second world war, My grand Father use to use taking me to Sunday school as an excuse, to vist his girlfriend. as long as I purssued a course of a sinner I was subject to punsihmnet, by [CHOSE].
I engaged in behavior that was showed a hatred for God, when I change my ways I was no longer, subject to that punishment.
My Grandmother on my father's side was a full blooded Cherikee, indian. Native Americans, have a gene that prohibits, digestion,of alcohol. So as long as I drank I had issues and suffered the life of an alcoholic. When I stopped, drinking, I stopped suffering, same with my father, he stopped drinking and stopeed suffering form alcoholism.
I went thourgh rehab and counsling, and finally I gain understanding of my physical problem but before that I prayed to better my spiritual, understanding. When they both converged, I began to heal. The second generation saw the change. I become obiedient to bible principles.
The truth will set you free is not just a saying, but some of us become so use to being salves we reject true freedom because, we are affraid of the unknown.
The point is the trend is reversable. Because of Adam we, are all born in sin, but that is reversable if we repent and except Jesus Christ.
Not only that, but I am pretty sure he exhorts his Chosen People to kill every man, woman and child of an opposing tribe at one point.
The commandments that God issued, were a guide for the Isrealites, when dealing with each other. It did not extend to the Cannanites who inhabited the promise land, and whom God determind were expendable, in order to clear the way for the promised seed to come forth.
The Ten commandments by the way were rested when, Jesus gaave the surmon on the mount and ushered in a new convenent, not Just, for Jews but for any and all that would accept Jesus, as their saviour.
Once again the contradiction is in the understanding, not the Bible. Reminds me of CNN, framing a quote so they can generate more entertaiment interest. So far all I've read is scriptures taken out of context. And rejections of true understanding based on private and personal agendas.
That is exactly right. The Ten Commandments state, "Thou Shalt Not Kill." However, in the bible God commanded the Israelites to kill even the babies, women, and animals.
Well, if anyone is interested in a comprehensive list of bible contradictions:
A favorite site when I'm feeling down
You down? Mark I find that hard to believe
I paid a visit to, your Rec., center. I won't address all the supposed contraditions I read there but I saw one at he top that I will remark on.
I spoke of God residing in or out of temples. Or residing in the light. We read the Bible so we know when Solomon built the temple to God the Arc of the convenent was place in the Holy of Holys and that is where God resided. And that it was said to dark in there. Since only the high priest was allowed to enter, we have to take the Bible words for that.
We also know that God generates his own light of has a Glow about him. Intellectualism is a deterent to spirituality. Adopting a form of anti apiritualism to justify a totally, intellectual, mind set, does not prove the non existance of God. It just shows that,You have the free will that [God] gave you to make that chose.
In God's arrangement non believers have a purpose. They are examples to those who believe to help them to understand the difference.
Now don't get upset because Iam not judgeing you, or condeming you out of judgement. I am just accepting you for who you choose to be. With the understanding that you can change anytime you feel like it.
So I look forward to seeing you when the United Nations destroys organized religion. You're going to be really upset; when you find out how much time you waisted, believing a lie.
The easiest way to resolve "contradictions" is to just read the scripture in their contexts. That will resolve 90% of any perceived problems. It's easy to pluck sentences out from various parts of any written work and say they contradict, when there is really no contradiction.
Looking at the original languages helps a lot, too. There are plenty of online resources where you can get the Old and New Testaments in their respective Hebrew and Greek texts.
I do not think, though, that this question is all that different from the others that have been posed in this respect: if you are inclined to believe there are contradictions, then you will believe there are; if you are not, then you will not.
Jeremeo - I like the way you post now - very readable
But I was just having a little fun.
And if you think my lack of faith does not also extend to the United Nation, you are misjudging me badly
Peter- Seriously. I do not believe it is possible to read the bible in context. Unless you have lived as a jew or a christian under Roman rule 2,000 years ago. Which I don't think anyone here has done.
And as for reading it in it's original language. most people I know can barely speak English. I cannot imagine a bigger waste of time.
There are no "perceived problems." the bible clearly contradicts itself. Not just a question of reading the "original languages, which will just give you one person with an agenda's version of events.
The bible is now and always has been a political book, and the subsequent versions, subtly re-written to use a a tool of fear. Just look at jeremeo's fear of the UN.
This question is different-
There are so many different interpretations of the bible, I do not understand how an educated person can say there are no contradictions in it. These contradictions are self evident. Just look at all the different versions of christianity. No contradictions? If that is the case, why are there so mant interpretations?
And if you say, well, that is man's failing, I will have to say - 2,000 years of bloodshed and horrors - this book is evil
I didn't mean that kind of context, I simply meant in the context of the scripture itself. This is a very common problem, and Christians are the worst offenders about quoting scripture to suit needs rather than understanding it in its context.
You don't have to go off and learn Hebrew and Greek. Where there is a meaning in question, it is easy enough to find the word or phrase in dispute and study its meaning. In some instances you may need historical or cultural context, but not for the basic stuff.
But, when we get into these types of assertions ("the universe was made in 6 earth days" and "the Bible contradicts itself"), what's the practical difference between the "intelligent design camp" refusing to explore the science and the "the Bible is wrong camp" refusing to explore the real Biblical text?
I don't mean to be critical, only that we are falling into the same trap that we criticize others for falling into, aren't we?
I can't really disagree, but, you are correct, I would say that "politics" is a human condition, and God is no more to blame for my human actions than you are, not that there's not plenty of blame to go around...
Peter M. Lopez wrote:
I didn't mean that kind of context, I simply meant in the context of the scripture itself. This is a very common problem, and Christians are the worst offenders about quoting scripture to suit needs rather than understanding it in its context.
You don't have to go off and learn Hebrew and Greek. Where there is a meaning in question, it is easy enough to find the word or phrase in dispute and study its meaning. In some instances you may need historical or cultural context, but not for the basic stuff.
But, when we get into these types of assertions ("the universe was made in 6 earth days" and "the Bible contradicts itself"), what's the practical difference between the "intelligent design camp" refusing to explore the science and the "the Bible is wrong camp" refusing to explore the real Biblical text?
A day in the life of God is 1000 years, so the creation took at least 6000, years. I applaude your open mindedness and willness to perform Due Dilligence, as an honest effort to discover the truth.
Wise words as usual, Peter. Some Christians are so fond of distorting - sorry, I mean "interpreting" the Bible to suit themselves, it opens the door for others to drive a truck through!
What really needs to happen is for ALL churches to recognise that the Bible, as we know it today, is an imperfectly translated document. There's lots of scholarship now on what the translation should be, where we have the original texts - why can't the churches get together and produce a new ground-breaking version, just as the King James's version was groundbreaking in its day?
Actually I know the reason why they don't - because many of them base critical parts of their teaching on translations which have since been proven to be inaccurate!
Thanks for the complement Mark, I made sure it was close to right before I submited it, hoping for the [A,] Now that I have that. I have [never] underestimated you or your IQ-Mark.
You always bring a smile and your sense of humor, to the conversation.
No I am not affraid of the UN, it is; to be honest, irrelevent, to me. It will serve it's purpose in due time. In the mean time the admonition, is to get out of Babylon-The Great- before it is destroyed. I'm refering to our personal agreement. When you see it happen you will give [some thought] to switching sides.
Contradictions in the Bible are just like, Beauty in the eye of the Beholder, people see what they want to see.
And I will say this again Satan has the wool pulled over [just about] everybody's eyes, and thoes who can't see the truth have Stockholm, Syndrom.
But the good news; is always, God gave every body free will, so if a person want's to be excluded from pursuing Bible principles or just want's to believe the Bible is, a crock, he or she is free to do just that.
But if you're free to do as you please why trash the Bible; why not just do what you want and leave it at that. So, I say, in my opinion, people trash the Bible to justify their choice, whether it's to be agnostic, atheist, Buddist, whatever. It doesn't make them bad people. We aren't allowed to Judge each other anyway?
Like all these forum questions among us hubbers, it's just another excuse to get together and enjoy each other's company, over a hot topic.
This time the party was at my Hub, who's next. If it's about the Bible, you all ready know what I'm bringing; the TRUTH, AS I SEE IT.
Mark, you are as wise as you are compassionate. I think the most precious of understanding that came out of the Bible is in understand peoples differences. What else could there be to the truth other than, the self proclaimed false truths are also truths unto themselves.
Yes my dear friend, [S] but which of these truths has the power to set us free-from the sin that Adam-left us as our inheritance?
Or is God so cruel, that he would leave us, to suffer, from tht which we had no hand in creating? I choose to believe Not. [But that's just me.]
I think Mark is wise to, he just needs to get on the narrow road; [in my opinion.]
Thought I'd bring a little PC to the discussion, so as to offend no one.
What does a person have to do other than believe what works for himself? Nothing, right? You don't know, I don't know, now one knows.
Every veiw is just as silly as the next. Come on....really, I swear it that God loves you and me no matter what. What circumstances of life are there that God doesn't already know? Give me a break, if I can know it, then I am certain the God knows it, I think it should be the end of the discussion.
It will never really matter what you do, what you think you know or what you say. The outcome will be as it will be, what else is there to dispute?
Or as Jesus said, It was written. One person telling the next person what is right, wont change anything but the way we live together right now.
My friends very in thier beliefs but it never changes the way that I feel about them as people. My husbands an atheist, his father believes in aleins and Jesus, my brother believes he is God, and my mother believes just doesn't care what anyone believes, my youngest brother thinks God is a jerk, but says whateva, and my second to the youngest is a perfect deciple, my dad is gnostic and takes life as it comes and lives as happy as he wants to be, and his wife is a presbyterian, my bestfriend doesn't talk too much about what she thinks and her mother is a loving spirit.
Sparkling Jewel believes all things can be achieved through higher consciousness of the Christ mind and Mark doesn't believe in God whatso ever, but what I find in all of them, is that there good people, not so much set apart, but put together and all in thier own way trying to make a difference that is for the better not for the worste.
I don't believe any book will get you closer to God, I don't believe that baptism will clean your soul, I don't believe that a mear acceptance of Jesus Christ as your savior will save you, and I don't believe that a non belief in God makes a person worse or better than anyone else.
Misha...You make me smile in general.
woo hoo, life is a party!
A global party, could you imagine????
That would be one party I would not want to miss.
I could see it now....
Peter - I disagree about the whole context thing, but I see what you are saying. There are 2 different types of out-of-context here. You are talking about one and I another. I still do not believe it is possible to read the bible genuinely in-context. Ever. Languages and meanings change all the time. Just try reading Milton or even Shakespeare in the original English. Once you add the problem of translating from a foreign language you must lose the original intention of the words.
But, here are a few specific contradictions/inconsistencies that are not about context. I don't like to quote the bible because the believers think that means I believe too. Just because I have read it doesn't mean I take it as gospel (sic).
David slaying Goliath:
"So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David." Samuel 17:50
"Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled." Samuel 17:51
Which is it? No need to be in context. 2 different versions of the same "event."
Graven images. Good or Bad?
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." Exodus 20:4
"And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat." Exodus 25:18
I'll take the one about David and Goliath. David slew Goliath with a sling and a stone. He needed no sword. After Goliath fell David ran to him and climbed upon him taking his own sword (Goliath's sword) and cut off his head with it. Will have to study a little on the other about graven images.
Yes, that is how I have always understood this passage, and when I have heard it taught, I have heard it taught that way.
As for the graven images...again, context, keep reading Ex. 20:4-5 It explains what the thou shalt not re graven images means, i.e. making them to worship. The cherubim on the mercy seat were how God instructed the Israelites to decorate it, like the decorations on the other temple items like the lampstand, for symbolic purposes.
Now we are talking about one of the major bones of contention. Idolatry. (Not adultry sandra (awful close though)
What constitutes a graven image/worship of an idol or image? And when is that acceptable?
If you have the answer, I am listening.......
Let's see here words... adulatory, excessive praise, to fawn upon, excessive
adultery, intercourse with someone other than spouse
idolatory, excessive or blind adornation, religious worship of idols.
I would say, the "sin" is when it becomes excessive. Too many gods, too much praise for one thing to many people, using up all our resources, too much killing, basically too much is too much.
To me it seems that Christianity violates all the commandments and they can't figure it out because they are blinded by excessive praise and worship. The promise of Life, the temptation of the Devil maybe...
I figure that those missing Moses tablets with the 10 commandemts probabaly read adulatory, not adultery. You know cause if adutery was it's intended meaning then it wouldn't make much sense considering concubines and an awful lot of adulterous sex that God seemes to have approved of, which would lead me to believe that is why Jesus forgave the women who was caught cheating on her husband.
When it comes to the nifty little catch phrase, "don't babble like the idolators", Christains are the idolators. They are the ones that babble on all day long about Jesus and do it pretty blindly considering they really have no idea or are just ignore that they do it.
What's graven? I guess my superficial Sandy senses tell me it is something that is dead. lol. I think A dead man nailed to a cross pretty much qualifies as a graven image. I think it is gross and vein and a in violation of the commandments, which obviously Christains are some how exempt from. They are the blind leading the blind, but blind people don't know when a blind person follows.
I think that every comandment can be understood using the word excessive, or adulatory because all lead up to one thing...total destruction.
No matter how much a person tries to lift the veil of deception from a Christains eyes, it fails because they are too blinded by pride to see that humiliation is a rightous virtue but they would rather continue on the path to peace by the means of distruction rather then be humiliated by the errors in thier ways.
So, I still think that Christains are the Anti-Christ, and the true Anti-Christ is the healer, if you look at it in a form like, an antibody, it's the cure.
So in church they preach that the Anti-Christ will be apear as the nicest, most peacful person, who will make miracles who will raise the dead and stuff. Now come on...who does that sound like?
They say billions will be fooled by him, they talk about the mark on the forehead or the hand. Baptism anyone?
Hellz yeah Christains scare me. What's worse is that if any of it is true, they will all go to Hell and they are taking innocent people with them. So when you try to pull one of the sheep from the pen, they attack you like wolves.
Don't get me wrong though, I do like Jesus, but I have a very different view of him, if not different from everyone. He is not God. He may be an alpha and Omega, but to me alpha and omega, means the Good and the Bad. Hence, Jesus said, "why do you call me good, there is only one who is good, that is God."
But whatever, it really doesn't matter much, what will be will be, I gave up trying to "know" what is right and submitted my soul to the Creator. Whatever it is.
ps. who could be wiser than Daniel...Jesus???
pps. why contradictions??? The Good and the Bad. = Jesus
This was posted so long ago this probally wont even be seen, but I just felt I wanted to have a chance to reply, so many miss what sin is, Its not the "disobeying God" thant makes sin, sin. The sin in the world is that man has chosen to live according to their wisdom and understanding. That was the sin in the garden. They chose to live a life that was directed by what they understood, felt and desired to provide for themselves, when God wanted to be their provider. But they were tempted to live by pride and not faith. That is the sin in the earth today. concubines were, not woman who were permitted to have sex with others, they married, but they were not the first wife, and when we read we see where the lust that caused men to have other wifes, caused them problems. It was never a part of Gods plan for men to have other wifes, but man who lived by his desires okayed, it. You need to truly study the word, with out critism. Some think there is contradiction with the son, father and holyghost, being God... I dont know your life, but you are someones daughter, you are a woman, afriend, maybe a mother or a wife, a mate. Have you ever had someone one say I need you to be a friend not a mom? a wife not a mom? or maybe a friend not a boss. Have you ever had an argument with one emotion or desire against another. Yet you are still one person. Jesus is God the son, Jesus is God the Father, Jesus is the HolySpirit. Jesus is the fullness of the God head, 3 manifestations, one God. Its ok you dont believe in God, or the Jesus is God, that is your choice, I pray your right, I have nothing to loose if you are, but if the christians are right, what do you have to loose?
As far as what the teachings are about the anti christ, none will be exact, we can come close, but Revelations is prophetic, they are like signs on a road, giving some direction, but we wont know until it happens. When it happens, all will know what was meant. If the Holy Spirit isnt the one teaching or revealing we wont know. But we have this that when we hear the truth the truth will set us free. But for the believer there is a hope given, that there will be a day that Jesus will come and remove the believers from destruction. Like he did noah, lot, how we can only speculate, I personally think it will be a transformation. weither that is by the grave or a leap of faith called the rapture. I am confident, that life here does not stop here for anyone, we all have an eternity and where it is spent is not Gods choice but each individual. For the believer in Christ it will be with Him, if its another it will be with them, but there is only one true God, and His domain is upon the throne of heaven and he is the only God that declares He is the begining and the end, the first and the last.
I'll take the graven images, The chrubs on the arc of the conenent were placed there to as a decoration of worship to God himself, and not some heathen God.
A possible explanation
Isn't worshiping a dead man named Jesus on a cross worshiping a graven image?
Isn't worshiping a cross a carved image?
Isn't worshiping Jesus as God a violation of the first commandment?
Isn't worshiping Jesus adultry?
You must have a misunderstanding of what Christianity is. We do not worship the cross. It is only a symbol of Christs sacrifice for us. Worshiping Jesus as God is not the violation of the first commandment, for Jesus is God. And he is not dead, for he has risen and has overcome the grave. Also to the last question: to worship Jesus who is God is not idolatry, for the God who is alive is not an idol, but the Creator God himself. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." God's love is so great that he wishes to save every individual. This includes you and me. What we must do to be saved is to turn to this immeasurable love, and ask Him (that is Jesus), for He is the life, the way, and the truth-the only way to the Father: to change our hearts. And when our hearts are focused on Him, then we must seek His will in our lives, and to live by His statutes. This is the way of Christianity: simple, and yet eye-opening.
I think first three answers are: yes, it is
Not sure about fourth, cause I don't really understand the word
I do not believe it is ever acceptable, although we worship idols all the time (an not just graven ones).
I think many of us, myself included, idolize HubPages, for example.
And there you go, bastardizing the term - avodat kochavim umazalot, and avodah zarah are not the same as idolizing something that you do not worship.
Hmmmm. A contradiction?
I am just giving Peter a hard time
"avodat kochavim umazalot" means worship of planets and the towers, and is a perverted use of the term "Avodat Hashem."
"avodah zarah" means to worship foreign gods, or possibly anything like sun worship, or moon worship - anything other than god - maybe.
(depending on your translation/interpretation)
Everything we are discussing, i.e. contradictions, what this means, what that means, what is idolatry, worshiping graven images; all has to do with our states of consciousness...which state is in sway at the moment of perception. Our state of consciousness changes, because we are affected by all the different things and people of life.
At this point in time I find no contradictions anywhere because I have a particular belief that consciousness changes over time, and another's does too. I feel my soul has matured (my consciousness changed) following a path of seeking my union with God/Universe/Source. so as I mature, my perception changes. That is how I have read the bible or other historic spiritual work. Even the same passage can be read/perceived differently at another point in time, because I am changing.
I do believe that the Old Testament and The New Testament are as far apart as Islamic and Christian Concepts. Granting that God gave us all a mind to think (Well most of us) That thinking concept was to allow us all to make our own decisions and not to follow on like a herd of sheep. We have free choice. It should always be used wisely.
When Christ was born not as a God but the son of God.
We entered into a different era.
God did tell the Israelites to kill their enemies in the Old Testament. As we all wanted to exact the eye for an eye. In the new testament. we have two Commandments:
Love your God!
Love your neighbours as you love yourself.
Some Christians still want to rape and pillage.
Whilst most Islamics seem to want to kill everybody. (Themselves included)
Revelations is mainly in the form of prophesy, where God is telling The World were we are going.
I always love it when you chime Marmalade with your wonderful words of wisdom. Thanks.
Well, it seems as though your definition of love must differ from mine. Speaking personally, I am pretty choosy about whom I love. Because if I love you that means a lot to me. I will die or kill for you. If you ask me, I will give you anything I own. What does it mean to you?
But, back to contradictions.
Here is a good one:
In several gospels, Jesus is quoted as saying that he will come into his kingdom on earth before a short period of time has elapsed. Specifically before people listening to him speak have died:
"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." Luke 9:27
"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." Mark 9:1
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Matthew 16:28
Clearly, all the people listening are dead and Jesus did not come into his kingdom yet. Seems like a big one to me
Mark, what if Jesus were speaking of a death of our spirits not our flesh. Of course the "fleshly bodies" of the people present died, but some were saved and, thus, their spirits never tasted "death."
So this particular piece is not to be taken literally then? Unlike the rest of it.
No we just need to re-evaluate our interpretation of "death" as Jesus used it here.
You can't have it both ways WC. Either the bible is literal, or it isn't.
The act of dying; termination of life.
The state of being dead.
But here you are arguing now that we should not take this literally? I can hardly believe my ears.
Did you get your video sorted? I only put that one up to see if it works:D
Well, we were actually talking about this contradiction. I don't recall mention of Paul.
Paul is the author of I Corinthians, so that's where I got his name. And I thought the overarching theme was that of the Bible, so although we were talking about Jesus' quotes on death, I thought I'd bring us full circle and point out Paul's clarifications of death (since it's in the Bible).
Seems to me like you are avoiding the question. And raising some more contradictions in the process.
So, I am going to push you on these questions.
First dealing with the specific contradictions I bought up. Jesus is quoted as saying he would come into his kingdom before the people listening were dead. And for once, there are several gospels that pretty much quote the same thing.
To which you replied:
Which is actually just another question. And answering a question with a question is avoiding the original question.
I have also explained what I mean by "literal," although I am not sure why we had to go down that path. Other than another way of avoiding the question.
Plus I made no mention of Paul.
Also, this raises the possibility that the bible is not literal and is in fact, open to being metaphorical. So I then asked you to explain how you distinguish between the 2.
I know you take creationism as being literal You take the bible's explanation of how the way the world was "created," as literal. 6 days - start to finish. Good to go.
Yet the word "death," does not mean death. Sometimes.
And yet another contradiction.
Was Lazarus dead? Or was this "miracle," something else?
Questions questions, always with the questions......
white altantic - whilst I agree with some of what you said, using ALL CAPS is considered shouting online and hard to read.
But the kingdom has come through the power of the Holy Spirit. The kingdom of God is with in man... the bible teaches..
Why can people not believe that Jesus has done what he said that he would?
Cause we don't ,,"understand" ,, correctly ,, how he could have
He said that he would and he did. but not the way we expected.
The Hebrews of that day were expecting the Messiah to come but they expected him to come in a different way than he did.
And the issue of the "Rapture" ... It was explicitly described in Daniel 12 that these would be the children of Daniels people. .. "Hebrews" .. And according to Revelation; Those that were to be redeemed from among were going to be 144000 "Hebrews" 12000 of each of the 12 tribes.
When the disciples were talking about it; It had not happened yet.
In 135 Thur 138 AD the entire population of Hebrews were being relocated through out the rest of the Roman Empire.
What better time for 144000 people to simply vanish.
Jesus came as a thief in the night.
He came and went unnoticed by the rest of humanity.
This is easier for me to believe than it is to believe that Jesus lied. If we believe in Jesus it is mandatory to believe that he did not lie.
ok, ok, I know why the bible contradicts itself...because the people who read it are one sided. hahahahahahaha. Ok, not everyone, but you get it right?
So what you are saying is that Jesus didn't need to be reincarnated, but every one else does? Is that right?
So even though the christians are pretty dead set against the idea of reincarnation, they are wrong, but what it says in the bible is correct and Jesus didn't mean real-time, but some sort of Astral time? And he meant he was going off to be one with God/Source even though he also said he was one with god which I think is different to your god which is just confusing the issue.
Also, he was referring to this other death that doesn't mean death, rather than actual death, so when he said death, he meant not-death. Which wouldn't make any difference because you are coming back again. Even though you don't know you have come back, and don't know what you failed to learn the last time.
Not sure how this answered the contradiction though.
No. Jesus did reincarnate many times to attain the level of soul awareness of Oneness with God. As do all people. As far as I believe.
Yes, I believe in reincarnation...but not like some interpretations I have read.
Time and space are an illusion we create for ourselves. Jesus' soul attained to a state of consciousness that transcended space and time as humans know it. He had come to realize that there is no separation from the Source, except what we make of it. He did not have to go off somewhere physically to be One with God. He came to realize it within his own consciousness.
Many of the times Jesus and others in the bible and other religious texts spoke about death, it was metaphorical, meaning death of the state of human consciousness that is blocked to realizing/accepting Oneness with God.
The physical body wears out (old age) when there is not enough Energy coming into the spiritual, mental, emotional and physical bodies of an individual in embodiment (alive as most people know it). Or there are illnesses and accidents of karma, or interference of the fallen ones with lives of people that cause death.
And death does make a difference. We are intended to be temples of God Energy, and live long to fulfill our divine plans and bring in more Light to add to the planetary consciousness.
I see how there is no contradiction in verses. I am sorry that I can't explain it enough to satisfy your ego mind. Life is full of mystery...and those mysteries can be experienced and understood by those that seek, believe and have faith.
I Understand that you have "interpreted" the meaning of the word death to make sure your ego sees no contradiction and thus protects itself.
But this does raise some more enormous contradictions.
If death doesn't mean death in the bible, when Jesus bought Lazarus back from the dead, he actually enlightened him. Not an actual miracle. So those referencee to Lazarus' wife beating her breasts and wailing (If I am remembering correctly) are just what? Lies.
A mistake? Oh, I know, a mis-interpretation bought about by being dead.
I have to say, this is a pretty mixed up version of several other religions, that doesn't really make any sense. Not just to my ego. My ego understand perfectly well what your ego is attempting to make me listen to. I hear you just fine. I just do not agree. Based on my years of experience, study and quest for truth and knowledge.
I seek. I just do not believe or have faith. Especially in this sort of stuf.
We die because that's the way it is. Everything dies. If we didn't die, the world would be a crowded place.
Not because there is:
"not enough Energy coming into the spiritual, mental, emotional and physical bodies of an individual in embodiment"
Re-incarnation as you are describing it makes about as much sense as the world being created in 6 days. We are not intended to be "Temples of God Energy." We are animals. Just like all the other animals. Nothing special. No more important than a grain of sand on the beach.
It's most odd that one who constantly talks of wrong-self and ego needs to create this fiction.
LOL Mark, you are making a logical mistake here You are talking about reason for us being mortal, and Jewel is talking about a mechanism of our mortality. In other words, you are answering "why" question, and she is is answering "how".
This is not to say I support or reject any of those
Mark, it's interesting going through all your logical analysis of the scriptures(Bible). I can simply understand your vast knowledge on many things. I can also understand you do not believe the bible nor have faith in Jesus Christ yet but your own religion. The Bible (God's Word) is the power of God unto salvation to them that believes! Do you know why I so much love you? I can see you being used mightly for the Gospel even to the working of miracles, Something lovely beyond your understanding is about to happen by the Power of the Holy Ghost to the glory of God. The Word of God is beyond just a great history book and religion. Anything is possible right now. This is for a reason, Glory to God!
No god. Therefore no glory. Like I said, we have very different ideas of what love means. I do not believe you love me. Why? Because you didn't answer my question. What does love mean to you? I will kill or die for the people I love. Which does not include everyone.
No, I do not believe the bible. I understand it, and have a lot of respect for some of the teachings, but I have no respect for people who twist it to their own ends.
Have a nice day
Like I said "some" references to death are metaphorical.
I am "making" you listen to me?
I described my version of reincarnation?
You believe you are no better than an animal? (That's really sad )
Well, my fiction is better than your fiction!
LOL - My point exactly. You, like the christians, appear to know which references to death are supposed to be taken literally and which aren't. Convenient.
Yes, you are preaching.
You have described your version of reincarnation in the form of several cryptic references:
"The transfiguration, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension are the steps to the ultimate Christ manifestation. Jesus was and did that. It was/is a gradual process. The ultimate manifestation of the "Kingdom" comes at the ascension...when a soul has no need to re-embody again (has attained Oneness with God/Source)."
"On a spiritual/mystical path, there are two kinds of death and two kinds of life...human and divine."
"Jesus did reincarnate many times to attain the level of soul awareness of Oneness with God. As do all people. As far as I believe."
Which I personally find to be confusing. Especially when, as far as I can tell, all the christians take a different view of this and the book you are quoting from doesn't easily back this up.
It seems to me that you are approaching the bible in exactly the same way many christians do. i.e "This is what I believe, and I am going to interpret the bible in a way that it suits my pre-existing beliefs."
What is wrong with being an animal? Lost me here I'm afraid. Humans are "better" than animals? In my world view, the whole thing works together. No particular animal or plant or tree or person is any more or less "good" than any other.
Maybe your fiction is "better" than mine. Personally, I like the American Indian or Greek mythological version. They are much more fun
have you ever tried to manipulate space? Some people can, it's real magic, and Jesus used real magic. He became one in God, but death is always a consequence of this life. Ones who will not taste death are the ones who develped the same unity, the resserection, seeing the parallel in the material world, opening the spaces between God and Self and walk right in.
Here we're looking at something Jesus said that happens to be recorded in the Bible. So I'm wondering if you should be asking if we should be taking Jesus literally and not simply the Bible. Or maybe you will say "both."
No video still doesn't work. I'm not in a big rush, so I'll keep fooling around.
And I would argue that your argument for the definition of "death" is limited. How many times have the following been said:
"You are dead to me"
"A part of me died right then"
We obviously don't mean that the person is dead or parts of the person are dead. So I would say death is inclusive of our physical bodies as well as other aspects of reality. Maybe our emotions died and we are numb to feeling; maybe our feelings toward someone died and we hate them; etc.
But what you are, in effect saying is that this part of the bible should not be taken literally. But some of it should be. And you know what should and shouldn't be taken literally.
Death means death.
Or, it can mean a million other things, if you choose not to take the term literally.
Well, why don't you start by explaining what you mean by "taking something literally."
* Does it mean to interpret something at surface value?
* Read something and have it mean whatever it is you interpret it to mean based on your world view/upbringing/knowledge/life experiences/ etc?
Or some other meaning?
OK Here are 2 statements:
He is dead.
The world was created in 6 days.
Taken literally, that person is dead, and the world was created in 6 days.
Interpreting it can mean that the person is only dead to me, or has died emotionally and is no longer a complete person, and the world was created in 6 billion years, and day means a billion years, because god's days are longer than actual days.
Literal means to take something as a literal statement. Word for word. What is said is meant. If I say, "Something will happen before you die."
I mean exactly that. This will happen before you are dead. Clinically dead and have stopped breathing. Dead. Not some other meaning of the word death.
Mark, I used wikipedia (your favorite online resource!) to help define it in my mind and to (hopefully) help us be on the same grounds with some sort of definition.
I'll give you a very cut-and-dry statement:
The Bible, just like many books in the past, should not (in most cases) be taken at face value in order for the most to be made of it. It is full of idioms, dualities, personifications, rhetoric, etc. and the meanings of these literary devices are lost when one takes the Bible literally.
That, I would hope, is understandable to most hubbers here.
What isn't as understandable by most hubbers here is the role the Holy Spirit plays in the revelation of the Bible. Like Peter Lopez, I cannot sit here and explain it as much as I can simply explain how the Holy Spirit has revealed truths to me that have hit the deepest cords of my heart. But don't take that literally as I don't actually have cords inside of my heart!
But I have been arguing all along that the bible is not to be taken literally. And you have been arguing that creation happened as stated. Literally.
What has changed your mind?
Mark, I'd like to mention something about the "death" we were discussing earlier. I was reminded of some applicable scripture this weekend concerning death. It's found in I Corinthians 15:35-57. I'll quote vs. 42-44:
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."
To me, it seems clear that Paul is delineating between a physical body (and physical death) and a spiritual "body" (and a spiritual death).
Just let me jump right into the middle of all this-LOL.
I always find it interesting to observe philosophical-religious debate, because this tends to be where we as mere humans always seem to start having problems... I finally came to a better understanding of spiritual matters myself, once I stopped trying to "pick it all apart". That is when the events in my own life really began to significantly change for the better.
This debate has gone on for thousands of years now and has resulted more in the disintegration of faith and the separation of our people into many different religions and cultures, all with varying views on which they stand firm. This indeed is truly the goal of our adversary to create this confusion in differing opinions and a resulting separation from God.
The difficulty is in that we try to understand concepts, which are so far beyond our mortal and mental capacity, and comprehend things that may not yet be meant for our complete understanding. When we try to pick things apart, analyze them, and as a result begin to doubt... This is where we get ourselves into trouble.
First, to dissect "the word" based on the English translation is alone difficult enough with so many printed variations available today. To even begin scratching the surface of the text in the Bible, we must go back through the original Latin, Greek, and then Hebrew translations to even see how the context of what is written there has evolved over the millennia. The original Hebrew gives us a more detailed understanding for the reasons: that first, it was this language that most of "the word" was originally written; and more importantly, that the Hebrew language has several "depths" or layers of meaning and definition for each character and word in that language; beginning with the literal translation on the surface, to an understanding in a more "Neshemah" (the “breath of God”) or spiritual level of divine understanding. Debating these matters in this language "English", looses quite a bit obviously in that translation.
The "word" is designed to be believed simply on faith, which is the whole foundation of our relationship with God. Christ explained frequently that the key to Heaven and a true relationship with God is based more on our ability to merely believe through "faith alone", than our need or desire for proof through "works" or physical evidence. People who actually watched Him perform miracles were very fortunate and blessed to have witnessed such events. For the rest of us, we MUST rely on faith.
“But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him out.”
This is what gave our adversary (Lucifer/Satan) the opportunity to have us separated from God originally, by creating original doubt and a desire to understand better what we cannot yet understand. This action planted the seed for the "wants and needs" of intellectual curiosity, and of course the process associated with original sin (satisfying the wants of "the self"), which we then begin to place ahead of our relationship with God our Father.
“But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
(Genesis 2:17; 3:4-6)
And I think we all know the rest of this story….
The bottom line is... If you seek Him out through His word, then these truths are eventually revealed to you... If not, then you may NEVER gain this understanding.
“I said, Days should speak, and the multitude of years should teach wisdom. But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.”
I hope this helps anyone that is out there in accepting this understanding, for a small fraction of things that are otherwise so infinite in their actual meaning and application both in the physical and spiritual worlds, that it makes it difficult for us to completely grasp.
Let's bring it back to the basics!
Faith and belief are the first keys, and love (compassion for our fellow people) is the most important concept and practice therein.
Some things are just not completely meant for our understanding... yet for now.
Hmm Typically obnoxious behavior from such as yourself.
You obviously have no time for the niceties of communication, so I will just say ciao.
Faith and belief LOL
You make me laugh.
It is scum like you who have managed to persuade me that the christian religion is a complete crock
You have no clue, or compassion.
I understand. Sorry you will never be able to. Actually, that's a lie. I don't care.
I did not know what I said to be deemed being obnoxious, other than coming in to the middle of the discussion like some of the others and trying to state my own observations and beliefs as well. That being the case, I stand corrected for the interruption.
I am glad I provided you with some humor at least. Laughter is good for the soul...
As far as 'nice' communication... isn't that what everyone is attempting here? To convey ideas and thoughts by using this medium to communicate.
I understand as well as forgive you for your lashing out otherwise, as although what I have stated obviously does not match your own beliefs, it must have also offended you in some way and I also understand your uncaring attitude as a result.
I also did not intend to cause you more ill feelings towards any faith, as you had mentioned Christianity (or the "Christian religion" above). I agree that this religion as a whole over the centuries has likewise done its fair share to blemish the truth in "the word" of God as it is written in the Bible, and has not been a great representative for Him or Christ, for which this religion was named.
This topic was however about discussing the contradictions in the Bible? (as I thought), not a reflection on the various religions that have been spawned from it.
Also, sometimes we loose our ability to have compassion when we have become too hardened by our experiences. Sometimes when our belief systems have experienced enough upsets to create doubts in what we may have learned or been taught, it is hard to have faith or believe in a lot of things. I have been there too and had these experiences also.
I am merely here to say that in my own life I have been involved with many different people, unique cultures, systems of belief and spiritual practices, to have had my fair share of experiences and opportunities to observe many things first hand. My opinions (and beliefs) are based on these things, as I have made the conscious decision to choose which of them I actually find "truth" in... and I find more truths in "the word" of God these days the more I dig into researching it and the Bible. I seem to keep coming back to this source, no matter how many times I have strayed away from it, or attempted different schools of thinking to the contrary.
I believe that we must first, "begin to believe" in something (as an example, in the "Laws of Attraction") before it can even have the ability to manifest itself in our lives. And secondly, to have faith in what we believe before the same has any hope of being sustained in our futures.
It is merely our choices in WHAT we actually believe, that makes the difference in our lives. That is the gift we have of free will, and unfortunately in this aspect it can lead many of us into paths which are not necessarily ones of enlightenment.
I am sorry for you, that you also feel I have no clue or compassion, especially based on a single article and having never taken the time to speak with me in depth. I do have a great deal of compassion and I am not by any means 'clueless' either-LOL. But, I will not waste any more of your time since that is what you feel I have done.
That is fine and it is your right to feel how you please. How we choose to think about things is the mechanism by which our futures are molded into existence.
My choice is to have the degree of faith and belief that do I have, so that my own future is guaranteed based on those thoughts. I do not choose the alternative, because I have seen what that future potentially is. I guess we will only really know these answers when we reach the worlds that lie beyond this one and see who is there with us, whether it be Heaven, hell or anything else for that matter. But once again, that choice is entirely ours.
I pray to our Father almighty; that the forces which are currently giving you strife be forever rebuked, may the Heavenly hosts enter unto you to remove the strongholds that you are afflicted by, and may the peace of the Lord thus continue forth in your life.
Caio as well, and have harmony and success in your future.
...with blessings for you and yours.
Well. It is pretty obnoxious to jump into a conversation without attempting to address the question being discussed and announce your beliefs in green writing. But - apology accepted.
Thanks. I always enjoy a good laugh.
I actually used the word "niceties." And by this I mean - politeness. Delicately expressing yourself without causing offense. I tend to reply to this lack with a lack of my own. This is what is known as "doing unto others..."
I do not need, or wish your forgiveness. Good, we are clear (see above)
One man's word is another man's burden. Depends whether you are a serf or a bishop I guess.
Yes it was, and this in no way attempted to answer that question:
In fact it was pretty obnoxious. Especially when you included 2 links to your websites (which have now been deleted) This is known as spam.
I have a lot of compassion for those that need it. I believe in nothing other than the fact that I am a part of something far larger than myself and am a very, very, very insignificant part of that something.
That would appear to be because you have already decided - reverend.
Of course you do. This is the whole basis of your belief system. You believe, therefore it is. I do not need to believe the sun will come up tomorrow for it to do so. (Jenny - this is the straw man in person)
I do not see how a blind belief is in any way enlightening. If anything it serves the opposite purpose. You are limiting yourself in ways you clearly do not understand.
I made my decision based on the only observation I had of you. You have never spoken here before, had no published hubs and behaved obnoxiously. The fact that you have come back to explain yourself goes a long way to rectifying that. There have been several other "reverends," who come in, tell us how it is and never come back. If you want, I can point you at their posts. And coincidentally, they also claimed to be experts on internet marketing and affiliate marketing LOL As do you
Thanks I will. Free will baby.
That is your choice. Heaven, hell, and anything in-between are here on earth, in the one and only life you or I will have.
Pray away. It can't hurt. I have seen what you call God, and you are sadly mistaken. Not afflicted.
I hope that one day, before it is too late, you can open your eyes to the truth.
This is a fascinating definition of the word "works", of which I was previously unaware. I always thought that "works" referred to one's actions in the world.
Pray tell, how do you apply this particular definition of "works" to the original quote "Faith without works is dead"?
Still no answer on this one ....
or, You will be judged according to your works. Or man can not live on food alone. So a man can not live on faith alone either. Or, magical works, healing works, uplifting works, or victors works...
If one can speak in tounges, let them speak. If one can prophecy, let him prophecy, if one can heal, let him heal, if one can sing, let them sing....
People used to sell miracle salve with the same logic:
"We don't quite know how it works so we won't take questions. but BOY does it work! So get some now!"
Kinda easy to take the position of not being able to comprehensively answer an inquiry about what you believe, when someone asks, by using the cop out of this "great and mysterious thing we cannot fully understand". So, if you do not know an answer to a question and you have tried your best to explain it, then the excuse becomes one of "this great mystery which we should not doubt and can never fully understand". Also, when someone doubts the "mystery" they are told they lack humility by the same reasoning I just showed in the last sentence.
The Catholic Church perpetuated the rationally offensive dogma (which it still does but with far less success) of transubstantiation in this way during the dark ages. People would object "Well it's just a piece of bread isn't it?". The priest would then say "Oh well god's mysteries are great and we only partially understand why it truly is god himself so do not stop believing in it but I will try to answer your questions as best I can". It's mumbo jumbo pure and simple, IT IS A PIECE OF BREAD and people are being hoodwinked into believing it is more than that and told they cannot dare question the mind of god and being thrown some verse from romans to quelch the supposed "arrogant stupidity" of the people who dare to say it's nonsense. This is a good example of fiat, FIAT. Fiat relies on social darwinism (which is very bad) in order to have any effect that forces people to keep believing. Fiat is simply, what I believe is because I say it is. The Catholic Church used that and so do you, (when you appeal to some 'higher understanding' that we 'can't possibly hope to fully understand'), in order to defend your own illogical beliefs AND in order for you to defend your right to accuse those who call the stuff in question nonsense of making the wrong 'choice'.
You are telling people they are making the wrong choice yet you yourself cannot see how your choice is not informed at all.
You can't understand it because you shouldn't and that is the point. That is why your beliefs are hostile to free inquiry and do not stand up to scrutiny by those who won't subscribe to your false humility.
The phrase "I don't <<really>> know and neither should you" sums things up well. Out of sight, out of mind.
That's the stuff. And people wonder about getting a hostile reaction.
I love you all. I won't do shit for you and have never met you but I love you very much. LOL
Although, I have been working on a similar sign off, and can't decide between "Saint Mark," or "Reverend Mark," as my signature.
Glory to the Atheists
Saint Mark AMPA, CMT, LSD
Glory be to the right thinkers
What do you think? Too religious?
If your going for the touche look then Reverend Mark would work well. I like Saint Mark AMPA. CMT. LSD better tho
Also, Glory be to the freethinkers would be my recommendation as far as phrase, because the implication in the language would be one of "free" vs "not free" rather than "right" vs "wrong", and freedom is the very thing the "religions" me and you disgust take away from every man woman and child that subscribe to it. Of course we both know that true freedom in any religion is only gained from doing what "you ought" and that all that blathering rhetoric about conscience is only a diversion, because of the 'only true ought' that informs the conscience in the first place. Using the phrase "Glory be to the right thinkers" is good but I think replacing the words right thinkers with the word "freethinkers" would give maximum effect.
That is my opinion.
I vote for Saint Mark. Of course, I am biased.
'But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.' Animals don't know the difference between good and evil, so surely we should be like them.
If we read Genesis, animals were (and acted) completely different back then (in the Garden of Eden) and lived in complete harmony with all the creatures therein. They were only transformed (changed) after "paradise" was lost, and when we were also driven from that place.
In the coming "Kingdom of the Lord" (as described in "the word"), animals are actually changed again back into something closer to their original design.
“The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.”
*(Notice that Isaiah also said what the fate of "the serpent" will be).
Animals do not know this difference true, and as we are now supposed to be "caretakers" over this world (and it's creatures), so as we were originally "like animals" (sheep) in the sense that all of our needs would have been provided for us by our "caretaker"... the Lord (when we still lived in Eden).
It will be a glorious day when that time soon comes again!
Well of course I guess that would be the way it would have to be to make the logic work. Seems to me your problem, if I may call it that, is that you create a totally imaginary ideal, then construct a logic to make it work. So the evil comes from not accepting the ideal.
'Jesus' soul attained to a state of consciousness that transcended space and time as humans know it. He had come to realize that there is no separation from the Source' ... Explains it well enough to my ego mind.
You know, the more I try and understand Jesus the more I lose faith in him. He's not devine. He's came to confuse the world and cause wars and hatered and distrust and to fill people up with hopelessness and then refuse them in the end cause he seceretly hates all of us.
'I pray to our Father almighty; that the forces which are currently giving you strife be forever rebuked, may the Heavenly hosts enter unto you to remove the strongholds that you are afflicted by, and may the peace of the Lord thus continue forth in your life.' Got to love the smug superiority. I thought the age of faith was called the Dark Ages. Can't reason with faith.
Do as I say or else.
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