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Does Free Will Exist?

  1. TruthDebater profile image61
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    Does free will exist, or is it an illusion that is predetermined by our programming?

    Is free will compatible with determinism?

    If no free will, how are genetic mutations explained? If something is random from programming, is this not free will?

    If our environment and biology is predetermined and programmed, how can we change our observations or thought mutations that differ from the programming?

    Is there free will in our ability to program ourselves?

    1. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Mans will is god wills, so the answer is both free does exist and doesnt exist.

      1. TruthDebater profile image61
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks. Would you care to explain further?

        1. mohitmisra profile image59
          mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          "The kingdom of god is within you"  "I tell ye are all gods" Jesus
          "Be still and know you are God" hindu Philosophy

          God is a very fine light love tissue encompassing all things including every human.The basic fabric of this universe and every human is this Light or God.
          All thoughts and action of man and everything in this universe is Gods.

          1. TruthDebater profile image61
            TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks. If all the thoughts belong to god as you claim, then there is no free will. It can't be both if there is no free thought.

            1. mohitmisra profile image59
              mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Welcome, and true.

              1. TruthDebater profile image61
                TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Thank You.

    2. 61
      niall.tubbsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. Dave Barnett profile image60
        Dave Barnettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        quite, but for monkeys w/ clothes, whaddayya want? If no God exists, then free will is all we have, and we better get busy. If God exists, then free will is an illusion, and everything moves to his will. Period, no other possibilities exist.

        1. TruthDebater profile image61
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. "his" "if God exists"? How do you know God is a he if you don't know if a God does or doesn't exist? How do you know it is only one? How do you know everything would have to move at a Gods will rather than only some things? It is pretty brave to claim limited possibilities when we have unlimited knowledge and sources.

    3. kess profile image60
      kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      To the Children of God, Free will does indeed exist, for anything they determined within themselves can and will be accomplished. For they can do all things.

      To the others freewill is merely an illussion, for though they think they possesses it they are bound by the law of death. Therefore all they will determine to do within them selves will all come to nothing. An everyday occurance                       


      Therefore the key is understanding the law of God... it is SINGLE and SIMPLE...

      and where ever there is no understanding of this Law, the law of death will rule. and it's appearance is very technical and very many.

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well said Kess.

        Choice is death.
        Free Will is Life.

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          ________________________________
          Free Will and choice are exactly the same thing. Period

    4. wilmiers77 profile image59
      wilmiers77posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      God gave us free will in the sense that He has not blocked all undesired thoughts, and won't as a rule punish one immediately for thoughts and actions against His will, but there are consequences, more so for those that are grievously against His will.

      Our purpose is to successfully seek God's Holy Spirit. We are in a discipline that conditions and teaches us what is best for us or what is wrong for each individual. Yes, God knows all outcomes and has predetermined the rules of the game. If all could be counted that counts, than all outcomes are predetermined. We either win or lose.

      1. TruthDebater profile image61
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks. I am guessing you are speaking from Christianity which states there is free will. If you say all actions and thoughts are already predetermined, this contradicts Christianity.

    5. wilmiers77 profile image59
      wilmiers77posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Free will and determinism are in a continual wrestling match. The one winning at the time is the one being observed; whether observing the capabilities of an Infinite Potential or observing man from a secular view.

    6. ncarpenter profile image59
      ncarpenterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Free is determine by who think they are free! enjoy

    7. Shivani Gala profile image79
      Shivani Galaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Firstly, let me confess that I have not read the whole forum completely.. so my answer can be a repeat.

      In any case:- Yes Free will exits in all forms.. Right from what do we want to be born as to what do we want to learn and be... everything is decided by us.. it is our FREE Will..  just have to strongly follow the will.. It can alter lot of things in your life.. Hope it was of help

    8. PhoenixV profile image79
      PhoenixVposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Freewill is an illusion.We have one freewill choice. Choose the Will of the illusion or not.

      1. mrpopo profile image88
        mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree, it's an illusion.

        I much prefer the way Bill Hicks says it though: life is just a ride.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q95kX_EP … re=related

    9. PhoenixV profile image79
      PhoenixVposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Choose to put on a parachute after you jump out of a plane.

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That could happen, providing the person jumped out of the plane with the parachute in hand and not on their back. lol lol
        (just kidding) wink

        1. PhoenixV profile image79
          PhoenixVposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Choose to be born. Choose to not max entropy in billions of years

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The choice of whether or not "you" are born is not a choice "you" make. wink

            1. PhoenixV profile image79
              PhoenixVposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Its not a choice "you can make".

              What follows is a "perception of choices" with so many variables and derivatives that it gives these perceptions an appearance of autonomy.

    10. goldenpath profile image82
      goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Free agency is an essential part of our eternal design.  Ultimate happiness cannot be realized without that catalyst.  However, we all sustained before we were even born on this world that all our actions carry with them consequences.  That, too, is an essential part of the Plan.  We actually exercised our agency in accepting consequences for our action.  It's awesome! smile

      1. TruthDebater profile image61
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks. I don't think a plan is free, there are sacrifices for any plan. I think consideration of consequences also influence free will. The harsher the punishment, the more fear in free thought or will. The more consequences, the less free will.

    11. AdsenseStrategies profile image71
      AdsenseStrategiesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes and no

    12. Onusonus profile image86
      Onusonusposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I believe that the very reason we are here is to exercise our free agency to progress further and grow spiritually. In fact free agency is so important to the creator he is willing to risk loosing us all.

    13. 0
      DoorMattnomoreposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I choose to believe it exists.

    14. Paraglider profile image90
      Paragliderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Coincidentally, I wrote a hub on this topic only a few days ago. My conclusion was:

      Free will is manifest where self-consciousness triumphs over instinct by creating the necessary conditions for its own continuation. We are truly alive to the extent that we take control of our lives, by thinking and acting in the best interests of our own minds.

      Do you agree with it? I also dismiss predestination completely, but would argue that the Universe is partially but not wholly deterministic, at least not on the macro scale, which is why there is room for (limited) free will.

      1. TruthDebater profile image61
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks. I agree with it, even if everything is predestined and free will is an illusion. I would agree with an illusion over reality if that illusion empowered me to have choice in reality. In determinism, there is no power or motivation for the individual if their choices and thoughts are irrelevant.

        1. Paraglider profile image90
          Paragliderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I'd add that there are always appropriate and inappropriate tool sets to use in any environment. For example, it would be possible always to use equations of Special Relativity when building a go-kart, but it would be infinitely more complicated than classical mechanics and would yield no benefit.

          Similarly, it might be theoretically true that determinism is absolute, but it's still a blind alley, because to apply it, you'd need to capture a snapshot of the initial conditions (position, mass, velocity, spin, etc) of every single subatomic particle that was part of, or positioned to influence in any way, the system under test. This is theoretically impossible and always will be. Therefore we resort to manageable macro descriptions. And these, genuinely, not just theoretically, exhibit fuzzy properties (i.e. with an element of randomness thrown in).

          The conclusion from this is that determinism itself is fuzzy, allowing for the possibility of some free will.

          I believe though that some people avoid exercising it, and behave almost instinctively at all times. They are losing out!

          1. TruthDebater profile image61
            TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks. I agree with you that determinism absolutely exists while possibly allowing free will. And if not, I will enjoy my illusion of free will while others blame their problems on determinism with no power to change. Even if it is an illusion, it is an enlightening illusion along with being empowering. I also agree that we will probably never be able to account of every variable in determinism, we still haven't seen dark matter or energy which makes up most of the universe. Interesting about people acting instinctively. Possibly the instinct is the determinism while free will is conscious recognition and choice between instinct or logic.

    15. 68
      paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi friends

      The Truth and False is but evident; and human beings have the choice to accept the Truth or deny it.

      Those who are with some disability to distinguish right from wrong; they would however be judged by the Creator-God Allah YHWH with justice and mercy.

      Thanks

      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

      1. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You might be judged. I have a different view. I judge your god to be non-existent, just like the biblical god.

        Your god only gets to judge you, as it's all in your mind, not mine. lol

    16. Adult Content profile image60
      Adult Contentposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      providing you are still single . . . yes!

  2. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago

    That's what we have, free will. Even where the law is concerned. We can obey it or break it.

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. What do you think of this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9Oidm … re=related

      They are missing many variables I think. How could it be accounted for that the person wasn't thinking ahead of the experiment? For instance, forcing themselves to push the opposite button simply to trick the experiment.

      Also notice that all the blocks weren't the same color predicting the choice. There was still some randomness in the color of  them which adds variables.

      1. mrpopo profile image88
        mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That's quite an interesting video.

        I don't think you can trick the experimenter, in this case. You can't somehow change your mind about a choice without showing it in the scanner. It's not like you can activate those blocks, then stop just before you make a choice and even if you could, I'm sure other blocks would be active to signal this decision and thus one can still predict that you're trying to trick the experiment.

        I think determinism, from a scientific aspect, is quite strong. For instance, particles can move and react in probabilistic ways. Since we are made of particles, that means we would also react in probabilistic ways. With that in mind, it would all boil down to chance or luck (so not determinism, but certainly not free will - it can't be based on chance, can it?). And there is also the possibility that we are missing some information that would shed light to an absolute path. In that case, it would be determinism.

        1. TruthDebater profile image61
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. You may be right, the machine may be able to predict every variable. But will all colors of the blocks ever be the same color with no uncertainty? If using this technology for a crime to see if a witness is truthful, how would it account for a person believing something that really didn't happen? I think chance and free will are closely related if not the same. I think it is chance and free will that allow randomness and uncertainty.Would determinism exist without chance?

          1. mrpopo profile image88
            mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I don't understand your dilemma. Yes, there are other colours, but those are simply the ones that didn't activate with the decision, or didn't activate as much. At least that's my guess. I see one or two black blocks (i.e. no activity) and a few light yellow blocks (i.e. some activity for the right button).

            These different coloured blocks are of no concern anyway. If some of the blues activate when he decides to pick the left button, it still predicts that the person will choose the left button.

            I don't see how this technology would be used in a crime scenario. It's not a lie detector, it predicts your responses before you yourself are conscious of them. That doesn't mean your responses are true or false, it just means it can see them coming.

            If free will is based on chance, then all of your decisions are based on chance. This becomes quite problematic especially for religious views because then punishments and rewards are simply the outcomes of luck (or lack of it). How could there be a heaven or a hell based on chance, for instance? You can only get in heaven if you're lucky? Doesn't really sound like there's a choice in the matter.

            Determinism would not exist. I think the proper term would be "probabilitism" - a system based on probabilities.

            1. TruthDebater profile image61
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks. You are right on the blocks, the final outcome was the machine predicting which button the man would push. I was simply making a point of the variables to where there is always the possibility of an unknown variable or uncertainty.

              I don't think free will or chance comes until after determinism. There is a good bit of free will built on chance I believe. A person can be born with a limited free will and others can be born with endless possibilities of choices. I don't know about heaven, but this thread is starting to make me think we are in hell. lol

              I think much religion uses free will to say everyone has the choice of whether or not to believe in God, then other religious say there is no free will with God determining everything. It creates much confusion.

              1. Cagsil profile image83
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Free will comes before everything in life, because it is the power that creates thinking for oneself.

                Not true. There is no limiting free will. There is only limiting choices people can make.

                1. TruthDebater profile image61
                  TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks. If you put a person in prison, how do they have the same amount of power/free will to make choices as a free person?

                  1. Cagsil profile image83
                    Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Because they are not dead. Free will comes from consciousness. Everyone has a human consciousness, which free will stems from. wink

    2. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Truth.  Amen.

      1. TruthDebater profile image61
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for the compliment. I must say, i'm not biased to either religion or science, but I do think it is interesting that a majority of science I have observed seems to be pushing a belief that there are no criminals to some extent. This claim is being made by saying there is no free will, only determinism by a persons genetics or environment. Many fail to mention that there are variables in how a person can choose to view their environment that is separate from their programmed history.

        1. cheaptrick profile image66
          cheaptrickposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The theory of chaos and subsequent experiments have shown that infinitely small changes in variables have a radically large effect on outcome.Mathematically,this is new ground being broken.It appears however that ultimately even chaos has a fabric of order as it's foundation.Order implies determinism.Chaos supports free will.The two may have the same genesis,that remains to be seen.

    3. 59
      exorterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      you got it down

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I think it's a little to the right.

  3. TruthDebater profile image61
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    It seems as if a majority of science is trying to get rid of free will by claiming every thought and action of a person is predetermined by their genetics. Is this incorrect?

  4. Peter Hoggan profile image86
    Peter Hogganposted 6 years ago

    IMO we might think we have free will but conformity, morals, external laws, habits, addictions all tend to guide our thoughts and decisions.

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. I enjoyed the part "tend to guide". I agree, there is a certain amount of predictability, but always the chance of an unknown variable or mutation. How do you counter this? If everything followed a program, how is there mutations?

    2. 0
      Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      We still have free will.
      Tell me any action where you did not have free will. Even if someone is handcuffed, they had free will not to commit a crime.

  5. TruthDebater profile image61
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    I'm not a follower of religion, but I do think it is interesting that ancient ideas of free will could be right over new age scientific determinism.

    Even quantum physics claims that there is always uncertainty or randomness to some extent.

  6. C.V.Rajan profile image69
    C.V.Rajanposted 6 years ago

    The more we are ego dependent, the more we believe we have free will. The more we become God dependent, the more we grasp that we don't have it.

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. What religious text has you believe we don't have free will? Free will is being challenged by science.  Religion and God teachings that I have read claims free will. This goes a lot deeper from just stating no free will. If there is no free will and everything is already planned or determined for a persons life, there is no motivation or determination to make a better future for themselves.

  7. 0
    AKA Winstonposted 6 years ago

    (Mans will is god wills, so the answer is both free does exist and doesnt exist.)

    Guess this is Quantum Will, then, as only quantum has the axiomatic foundation that something can exist and cannot exist both at the same time.

    If you can draw me a picture of free will, I would then be better positioned to say whether or not it "exists".  Better yet, how about defining the word "exists"? 

    It is pretty difficult to have a precise discussion with imprecise terms, don't you think?

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. Free will being the conscious power of the individual to choose or change the programming.

      1. 0
        AKA Winstonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Fine.

        Then free will and determinism are logically inconsistent. 

        Aristotle asked a similar question when he posited that if it were true that a sea battle would occur tomorrow on the Bay of Salamis would it then follow logically that such a sea battle had to occur, in fact must occur.

        Aristotle's contigent proposition is:
        A) if P then P. 

        This is a logical truth, thus necessarily true.  It can be expressed as the modal equivalent of:

        B) it is necessarily true that if P then P.

        And this can also be logically expressed as:
        C)  If P then it is necessary that P.
        and
        D) If P then it is impossible that not-P.

        However, if we think of the modal expressions in C) and D) in the absolute sense, we commit the fallacy of reasoning that a contingent can transform itself to an absolute.  The proposition P is a contingent proposition and therefore it is not necessarily true and is not such that its denial is impossible.

        Therefore, all that can be expressed logically about determinism is that If P is true, it is true.  Of course, that does not rule out P as false, and is not a lot of support for fatalism. 

        If she is blond, she is blond, unless she is not.

        1. TruthDebater profile image61
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          She was determined by genetics to be blonde, then she dyed her hair into a redhead on her own free will. She is a blonde redhead!

          1. 0
            AKA Winstonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Ah, but is it true that she must remain a blonde redhead tomorrow?  :-}

            1. TruthDebater profile image61
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Not at all, but is it free will or deterministic of what color she chooses? Fun stuff.

  8. Rishy Rich profile image80
    Rishy Richposted 6 years ago

    If u mean individual free will, then it doesnt exist. Only collective free will does. Collective free-will can be coined as the sum of the free will of all conscious living being in this universe. Our individual free will doesnt possess the ability to change or control our own lives. However, the free-will of all mankind do possess the ability to change & control the destiny of mankind to some extent!

    If you observe free will from an individuals perspective, then it will seem like an illusion but a collective free will help you to get the whole picture.

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. If our free will doesn't posess any power to control our lives, how can we consciously change subconscious habits? If there was no free will, shouldn't the subconscious overpower the conscious?

      Doesn't make sense, how can all of mankind have free will as a whole when you say it doesn't exist in the individual man?

      You are confusing me. You start out saying free will doesn't exist, then you mention it existing multiple times. If you have choice seeing between illusion and the whole picture, is this not free will to choose which one to view?

      1. Rishy Rich profile image80
        Rishy Richposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Let me provide an example:

        A man rapes a woman. In a quick observation, raping a woman was caused by the free-will of that criminal. Individual free-will works from this angle. But when you think of the victim, the individual free-will doesnt work since that womans free-will might have been to avoid all such incidents from her life. Individual freewill doesnt work in the cases of rape, murder or any awful accidental victims.  Thus u see individual freewill has no control or impact in our own lives. However, if that criminal possessed a freewill to not harm any women, the society used its freewill to provide security for such assaults & mankind had used its freewill to create a world without such crimes than those freewill might have assisted the freewill of that women & must have ended in a synergistic effect.

        Now again, u might pinpoint to the freewill of that criminal who decided to rape that women! If so, we have to look deeper into his personality & the reason behind choosing that action. He might have an unhappy love life, abused in the childhood, neglected by his family or atleast - HE DIDNT DEVELOP ENOUGH RESPECT FOR THE FEMALE KIND! This lack of respect could be caused by his family, society & or by the whole humanity. Its a cause & effect chain. And you see, its not completely his decision. A thief might steal because he is hungry...A thief might steal because he is mentally sick...A thief might steal because its his passion. Whatever the reason is, to some extent it is given to him by his environment & its not solely his decision.

        Other cases that you need to consider: 1. Freewill of those Jews who were massacred by Nazis & 2. Freewill of the innocent Japanese civilians who became victim of the atomic bombs  ...Individual freewill didnt work there, it was the collective freewill which worked. OUR INDIVIDUAL FREEWILLS ARE INTERDEPENDANT...alone, it wont work.

        Just a Thought   hmm

        1. 0
          Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          _______________________________________________

          I somewhat agree with you there. But there is chance, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Free will is in being in that place.


          Most of the time when someone invades a home and kills someone it is due to a window being open or left unlocked. So leaving it open is free will.

          All in all, it is free will on someone's part and chance on others.
          It is not predestined.

          1. Rishy Rich profile image80
            Rishy Richposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            "...All in all, it is free will on someone's part and chance on others.
            It is not predestined."

            Chance is an offspring of fate & fate is predestined...Your statement is self-conflicting.

            1. 0
              Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Chance could be considered an "accident" and has nothing to do with predestination.
              My views do not contradict.
              I can tell you if you walk one mile and turn left, you will find a lot of cash, that it is meant to be. It will be up to you to walk that mile and turn left. Free will.

              1. Rishy Rich profile image80
                Rishy Richposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Fate is chance...Chance is fate. Its the same thing. Fate is predestined, so is chance. This is where u r messing it up.

                And about the cash thing, its not chance. Someone has to leave that money for you there. If no one leaves cash there, you wont get it. Your freewill of walking a mile & taking a turn wouldnt help you unless someone elses freewill decides to leave the money there. As I said before, individual freewill has no impact. Its the collective freewill that decides our destiny.

        2. TruthDebater profile image61
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. In the case of the rapists history influencing the rape, I disagree. It may not always be free will of the situation we are in, but it is free will of how we perceive the situation. Same as the woman that was raped. Some women are destroyed by rape by letting it determine their lives. Then there are other women who continue living and succeeding in life. It's the free will of how the rape is perceived, not of the rape itself.

          With the Jews you mentioned, I agree that their free will was taken from those that were killed. But it is free will of how a society perceives it that lets them learn and grow from the incident.

          Also after the rape, if there was no free will in the decisions of the women afterwards, wouldn't all have the same automatic response?

          1. Rishy Rich profile image80
            Rishy Richposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I actually didnt mean how a woman reacts to her rape & chooses to live a life after to succeed. I only meant that becoming a rape victim is against her freewill. The perception of society obviously plays a major role & thats why its collective not individual.

            CHECK THIS ONE - The ultimate dilemma of freewill:

            You born as a human, you die as a human (Although you didnt choose to)...No matter how hard your freewill decides to become/dominate God, it wont work!!!

            1. mohitmisra profile image59
              mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              lol  love the last line. smile

              1. Rishy Rich profile image80
                Rishy Richposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I thought u would disagree that smile

                1. mohitmisra profile image59
                  mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I believe we are all puppets playing out our part.

                  1. Paraglider profile image90
                    Paragliderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    string or glove?

            2. TruthDebater profile image61
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              "You born as a human, you die as a human (Although you didnt choose to)...No matter how hard your freewill decides to become/dominate God, it wont work!!!"


              I agree that determinism or the program works to some extent. The main point and questions is whether free will does exist. The whole usually has more power than the sum by itself. The conscious and awareness show this I think by being able to override the subconscious. I think your comment also shows this "societys perception plays the major role". This is the whole having more control than the sum. But the society/whole is dependent on the individual/sum to exist.

              1. Rishy Rich profile image80
                Rishy Richposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                "...The whole usually has more power than the sum by itself. " - Welldone! finally u r learning big_smile

                The whole has more power than the sum > Thus the whole controls the sum > The sum has little or no control because of the whole...Thus concluding that without the whole, the sum plays no significant role!  neutral

                1. TruthDebater profile image61
                  TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Which has more power is subjective interpretation. It can be said the sum is more powerful because the whole is dependent on the sum. It all depends on how you choose to look at it. Without the sum, the whole doesn't exist. Thanks

                  1. Rishy Rich profile image80
                    Rishy Richposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Subjective interpretation?...hmm I guess thats how you fall into illusion.

  9. 89
    HSchneiderposted 6 years ago

    Determinism does have a major influence on our lives through our environment and our upbringing. We have the capability to assess our lives and change them as thoughtful human beings. We independently seek knowledge and truth to create meaning in our lives within ourselves. This is where we are different than other animals and other living things. It is the magic and freedom we all have. Outside determinants have a huge influence over us. The more we seek knowledge and truth, the more we break this grip.

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Very well written, thanks. I agree, especially with the last line. Nothing raises our consciousness or awareness like new knowledge.

  10. Allan Bogle profile image80
    Allan Bogleposted 6 years ago

    Intersting article on this ver subject recently: http://www.time.com/time/health/article … 94,00.html

    Many times the evidence cited for deterministic behaviour is simply physical stimuli. Trotsky, wrote of the influence of his armored train on him and others during the Revolution: "In those years I accustomed myself, seemingly forever, to writing and thinking to the accompaniment of Pullman wheels and springs."

    Later in his life he believed he did his best writingduring that period.

    There is no question that the unconscious is a powerful motivator in establishing action but I'm not sureone can call this pure determinism.


    By the way, 'Fatfist' and 'aka winston', who replied to this thread, are the same person.

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks for posting the link. I disagree with the use of the term unconscious and I think it shows the errors of the link. But it isn't just the one link, it's many if not all of them that refers to the subconscious as "unconscious". If there is memory, there is subconscious or conscious, however, many still wrongly use the word unconscious to describe conscious or subconscious thinking. It appears to me that science is consciously pushing an "unconscious" agenda in getting rid of free will, yet they can't properly define the words. They also failed to say that the subconscious mind or unconscious mind as they like to wrongly say can also be controlled or programmed based on the level of self awareness.

    2. fatfist profile image85
      fatfistposted 6 years ago in reply to this




      Oh Allan, I am very disappointed in you. You are trolling around again instead of doing the homework you were given last time.

      Remember your homework?
      You claimed absolute truth exists. So I challenged you to prove to the Christians of this fine planet that absolute truth exists, or even provide a simple proposition that resolves to absolute truth......remember??

      Ok Allan....you can hand in your homework here:
      http://hubpages.com/hub/There-are-NO-Ab … lute-Truth

      And this time, please use your Allan Bogle ID instead of posting outside of HP, like you’ve done in the past so as not to embarrass yourself. Let’s just be honest from now on, ok?

      If you can accomplish this simple feat, I will PayPal you $10,000 US for you to donate to your favourite Christian charity to feed some homeless children. But if you can’t deliver.....all I ask of you is to please donate $10 to an animal shelter in your community.

      This is for a good cause. Do we have a gentleman’s deal or are you gonna run away again, and "self-defeat" yourself?

  11. prettydarkhorse profile image63
    prettydarkhorseposted 6 years ago

    Free will yes, GOD loves us so much he gives us free will

  12. TruthDebater profile image61
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    If there was no free will, how does consciousness and awareness have ability to override the subconscious program?

    1. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      One needs to merge his will with the cosmic will:" Iqbal

      "What has to happen will happen ,you may have decided to do something and the outcome is different ,your free will works according to the cosmic will.so it better to tune into it ."

      Then again there are two "i's"  small "I" human,big "I" god,so man is god and gods will is mans will so there is free will at the same time there isnst..

      C.V.Rajan has quoted nicely

      The more we are ego dependent, the more we believe we have free will. The more we become God dependent, the more we grasp that we don't have it.

      Your  perspective depends on which" i" you are centered in.

      Both exists in one way.

  13. kephrira profile image60
    kephriraposted 6 years ago

    I don't see any conflict between free will and determinism. If you want to will something other than that which it is in your nature to will, then thats just self destructive, but if you don't, then your will is determined by your nature, but is still free to be itself. The only freedom that the will could ever have would be to go against itself. And why would you want that?

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. If a person had a drug addiction, it would be their determination or will to do drugs. Why would someone want to have awareness and make a conscious decision to change their will of relying on drugs?

      1. kephrira profile image60
        kephriraposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        On the surface that seems like a very a good point. But saying that it is their will to do drugs is very much an oversimplification. If the drugs are damaging their lives and those of the people around them then they will also have a will to stop taking drugs and there is a struggle between the two. When people say that they want to stop but can't what they mean is that a part of them wants to, but a larger part of them doesn't. As someone who has tried to give up smoking I know this is true.

        And you mustn't confuse this issue with morality. There is a difference between us wanting them them to stop taking drugs (or wanting them to want to stop) and them wanting to themselves.

        1. Dave Barnett profile image60
          Dave Barnettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          ON THE LIGHTER SIDE: old joke How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb? One, but the bulb has to want to change.
                I believe that free will is an illusion that the almighty allows us to entertain, but that the power of God is such that we step where he wishes us to step, that our minds and hearts are known to him, and if, in our illusion, we make fatal mistakes, then that is what is in our heart and in our mind. So too, if one wishes to embrace the Spirit and be healed, then also, they follow in the steps which has been already determined by the will of God. So we have two choices. Walk in the steps in darkness, or walk in the steps with some light. Two.

        2. luvpassion profile image59
          luvpassionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Also there is the question of the influence of the drugs on the persons will power.

          Will power, Self-discipline,these two powers help us to choose our behavior and reactions, instead of being ruled by them. Therefore freewill can't be IMO, without these two principles.

  14. SaMcNutt profile image61
    SaMcNuttposted 6 years ago

    Even G*d has free will. To be free is not to be bound.

    The definition for the word "Will," as found in Dictionary.com says "the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will"

    If I am a drug addict then the freedom of my will is hindered because it is bound by the need for the drug. Using the above definition in this context the "power of control the mind has over its own actions" is limited by the overriding need of the drugs. Yet, the person who made the choice to take drugs the first time must have at some point done so of their free will (unless another person forced it on them in some violent way).

    Regardless, free will is apparent in that if we were conditioned and manuipulated in our choices and with out free will, than why would humanity be in the state it is in? To clarify, the fact that humans do bad things to each other, animals and this planet comes from many wrong choices. Conditions and environment cannot ever create such thoughtful malintent. Actually, the fact that we question this at all, even have these discussions shows that we have objective, reason and direct thought that is highly conscious.

    I change my mind all the time through logic and reason, but it is only because I look beyond and into the meaning of things. The fact that I can change my mind is the very thing that makes me know I have a will that is free to do so.

    Great question!

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. I agree we do appear to have some free will to an extent, but it's not easy to figure out or prove for certain. I think the mind is a good start to figuring it out. It does seem with all of the variables of the mind and thought that it has free will to some extent. It seems there would be far less randomness in thought and mind if it were a set program.

  15. Allan Bogle profile image80
    Allan Bogleposted 6 years ago

    The free will/determinism debate is also manifest (to a degree) within Christianity, i.e predestination vs free will.

    As mentioned earlier, I think that people too often confuse responses to physical stimuli as deterministic.

    1. fatfist profile image85
      fatfistposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Allan, you're running away again, huh?

      Oh well......God Bless....I guess!

  16. 0
    Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago

    Richy Rich

    From the dictionary
    *************************
    chance | ch ans|
    noun
    1 a possibility of something happening : .
    • ( chances) the probability of something happening :
    • [in sing. ] an opportunity to do or achieve something :
    • a ticket in a raffle or lottery.

    2 the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design : he met his brother by chance |
    • the unplanned and unpredictable course of events regarded as a power :


    fate |fāt|
    noun
    1 the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power :
    • the course of someone's life, or the outcome of a particular situation for someone or something, seen as beyond their control

  17. TruthDebater profile image61
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    I think free will has evolved by us gaining awareness and reflection. Compare us to other animals of a peaceful species that follow a behavioral program. We create different programs and realities that collide with one another. It appears to be free will that leads to individuality and separation.

  18. Greek One profile image79
    Greek Oneposted 6 years ago

    yes it does... up until you get married

    1. 0
      Kathryn LJposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Oh Greeky, your sooooo right.  Glad to see her in doors has you pinned under her thumb.

  19. mega1 profile image80
    mega1posted 6 years ago

    Free will?  Free will?  what that is?

  20. Studio E profile image59
    Studio Eposted 6 years ago

    You have no free will you're just a human bot and your cousin is the robot every year you do the same thing over and over again like clock work, valentines day what do you do? easter what do you do? fourth of july what do you do? thanksgiving, christmas, new years, vacations, football blah, blah, blah then you start the same crap over again next year. things that make you go hummmmmmmmmm.so you have no free will. free will is when you can do anything you want at any time without any worry. never work again until you're ready travel where ever any time no problem eat whatever cost no object. i think you get the point by now. so no you do not have free will unless you're bill gates smile

  21. 59
    pladecqalvoposted 6 years ago

    TruthDebaterposted 2 days agoin reply to this

    Thanks. What religious text has you believe we don't have free will?




    This one.....

    "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]

    So if an omnimax god has "scheduled every day of your life", would you please explain how you can make any free will decision that will change what the god has planned for you? How do you make a free will decision that might change what is "recorded in his book"???

    1. SaMcNutt profile image61
      SaMcNuttposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Mant parents today have ambitions for their children and guide their children in a direction they want them to go. Yet, do those same children always do what their parents want? In the above response you use Psalm 139:16, bringing forward the point G*d "scheduled every day of your life" and thus concluding absense of free will, but to me I look at that same passage and think it means how long I shall live on this earth. In other words, before I was born the date of my death was also set.

      If we have no fee will and G*d has determined our life (based on the passage in Psalm) then I find it difficult to see how murder fits into G*ds plan for someone's life. To me, crimes against humanity wouldn't exist as in the murder of Abel by his brother Cane.

    2. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks pladecqalvo. This quote looks pretty cut and dry suggesting no free will.

      If no free will, it would also claim there is no punishment to sinners because they were determined by God, having no free will to believe in God.

      Unless it contradicted itself.

  22. 59
    pladecqalvoposted 6 years ago

    You can't equate an omnimax deity with ordinary parents.

    So if you think that "scheduled every day of your life" means the number of days that you will live and we will say, for the sake of the discussion, that the scheduled number of your days is 25,550 (70 years), can you foil your god's plan for your 70 years by making a 'free-will' decision to end your life at 65 years....thus proving that what is written in the book is wrong?

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think that is a good question. To those that believe a God has already  determined everything, knowing what will happen with no free will, it must be sadistic for that God to plan peoples suicides. Or is it only free will when people do bad things?

      1. mrpopo profile image88
        mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That same God must have planned earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis... even with free will, it's very sadistic.

        1. TruthDebater profile image61
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I agree. The only way I see a God or Gods existing is if there is free will without intervention. Even then it could be perceived as sadistic for a God not intervening free will to save lives. Others can see life or their perception of God as loving and beautiful. The different opinions suggest a free will in itself of different realities.

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            But WHAT   IF   dieing just means going HOME ???

            1. TruthDebater profile image61
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks. Then why wouldn't everyone commit suicide to go home early?

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                The principle said we gotta stay till school is out.

                1. TruthDebater profile image61
                  TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  The principal ends at 12th grade. So suicidal people don't get to go home?

                  1. Jerami profile image78
                    Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I just think that I understood what the principle told me.   I don't know what he told everyone else?

          2. 0
            Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Why do you confuse or join Free Will with choice (human consciousness). They are not the same --in fact are polar opposites, enemies or at emnity with each other...

            1. TruthDebater profile image61
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks. If you have a choice, you have free will to choose. They are not opposites when they can be used the same.

              1. 0
                Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Free will is NOT choosing. Choice is choosing.
                Free Will is beyond choice, apart from the parallel of the "Need to Know". Choice is sin --the first sin in fact-- needing to know; needing to understand or master the difference between good/evil.

                They cannot be used the same. Sorry.

                1. TruthDebater profile image61
                  TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Definitions of free will on the Web:

                  the power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies
                  wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

                  The question of free will is the philosophical question whether, and in what sense, rational agents exercise control over their actions, decisions, or choices. ...
                  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

                  The ability to choose one's actions, or determine what reasons are acceptable motivation for actions; The doctrine that human beings (and possibly other beings, such angels or higher animals) are able to choose their actions without being caused to do so by external forces
                  en.wiktionary.org/wiki/free_will

                  the partial freedom of the agent, in acts of conscious choice, from the determining compulsion of heredity, environment and circumstance.
                  www.willdurant.com/glossary.htm


                  the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.
                  www.philosophybasics.com/general_glossary.html

                  The freedom to create; the option to choose the right-or the left-handed path, Life or Death, the positive or the negative spirals of consciousness. ...
                  washingtondcteachingcenter.org/teachings2.html

                  I'm not the only one that thinks free will is choice.

                  1. 0
                    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Well, just because Merriam Webster or some other text states they are the same does not mean the are. You might as well say Quantum Mechanics is the same as kabbalah, but I think you know better...

                  2. 0
                    Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    ____________________________________
                    You are smart.Free Will and choice are the same thing

                2. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  _________________________________
                  Dictionary thinks they're the same.

                  free will
                  noun
                  the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

                  choice | ch ois|
                  noun
                  an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities :
                  • the right or ability to make, or possibility of making, such a selection :

                  1. TruthDebater profile image61
                    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Thank You.

                  2. 0
                    AKA Winstonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    This is why there are no blondes in Mensa:

                    "Dictionary thinks they're the same."

                    free will
                    "power"

                    choice
                    "act"

    2. SaMcNutt profile image61
      SaMcNuttposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      No one is saying that parents and the term "omnimax diety" but a diety who has created the parenting institution and is also a parent (through creation) the point of discussion still comes to the same. We created beings can disobey or creator like children disobeying parents. The Bible makes this comparison many times over, but I digress...

      Are you saying that G*d wouldn't know that, and of course it wouldn't be G*d's will that anyone ended his/her life. We disrupt G*d's plans all the time and yet all of time is accounted for. The book isn't wrong because the appointment isn't the acceptance. The person who chooses to end their life is the one in the wrong.

      G*d made contracts with the Israelites many times and they broke them many times. Was G*d wrong to make the contracts if he knew they would break them? No, they were. We fell, not Him, but was he wrong to make us in the first place?

      1. 59
        pladecqalvoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        What I'm saying is that if it is 'written in the book' that you will live for 70 years, do you have the free will to end your life at 60 years....thus proving that what is written in the book is wrong?

        Basically, if all the days of your life are planned for you then you have no free will to change those plans.

        As for your question "was he wrong to make us in the first place?" The answer is yes.  Because , due to omniscience, the whole sorry business was known to him before he started.
        He knew that Adam and Eve would 'sin'.
        He knew that his 'creations' would become evil.
        He knew that he would have to kill off everything on the planet.
        He knew that killing everything would not solve the problem etc etc...


        ....yet still he went ahead with it all. What sort of a lunatic would do that??

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          ...He knew, in the end, humans would still be his favorite of all creations and become perfect, as he wanted...

        2. wilmiers77 profile image59
          wilmiers77posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Pladecgalvo, the One that you refer to as a lunatic has done just that as you acknowledged His omniscience. If the question is asked how does one create an eternal being, than we must acknowledge that God, our Creator, is the only one who knows. How does one question the only One to His method. Since God is omniscience, He knows but we must partially experience it to know. We experience a life inwhich we learn and God, an Infinite Potentiality, takes it from there; all mysteries shall be revealed by the Spirit of Truth.

          It is impossible to please God without faith.

        3. SaMcNutt profile image61
          SaMcNuttposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Love is the only logical reason. The point is still the same,  to know him. that never changes through ones error or disobedience.

          This circular logic is making me tired. I feel I have expressed myself the best I am able. I am always willing to learn and think differently than I do know, but i will stand with I believe that because I am able to discuss the idea of free will then the existence of free will must be true, otherwise, for me it would be words with out meaning.

  23. Cagsil profile image83
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    Free Will and Choice are NOT the same thing.

    Free Will is having the power to make the a choice, either good or bad.

    Choice is the action of making a decision, either good or bad.

    Two distinct differences.

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Cags, that is what I said. They are two individual items...

      1. Cagsil profile image83
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I wasn't disagreeing with you, nor was I even talking to you about it. I just simply posted a bland post to support the thought that Free Will and Choice are different.

        I know what you said, I read the thread and I know what TruthDebater said as well. Hence, why I finally posted to this forum thread, instead of staying out of it. wink

        1. TruthDebater profile image61
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks, but that is different from what Twenty wrote above. Twenty says choice is the thought and free will is the action. I disagree btw.

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            If that is what you received/perceived from 21 days' statement, then apparently you missed something. wink

            1. TruthDebater profile image61
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Twenty One Daysposted 90 minutes agoin reply to this
              Choice:
              -consists of the mental process of thinking


              Free Will:
              -the capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action

              Thanks

              1. Cagsil profile image83
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Your post proves you do not understand the way 21 days talks or conveys his own message.

                Free Will - the capacity(power, as I said) of rational agents.

                Choice: - consists of the mental process(action, as I said) of thinking.

                1. TruthDebater profile image61
                  TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  If I have free will, I have free choice, I am free to choose. Please explain how a choice is made without free will? I agree there are different levels of free will, there are different levels of choices.

                  How is free will and free choice different?

                  1. mrpopo profile image88
                    mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    It's not, this is all a moot point and doesn't add to the discussion.

                  2. Cagsil profile image83
                    Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Different levels of Free Will and different levels of choices??? You are kidding right. hmm


                    Free Will - POWER to consciously think for oneself.

                    Choice - ACTION to make "thinking" into good or bad.

                    See the difference. wink

  24. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    Let's do a Mosaic Aptitude Test:

    1. Under Old Covenant is says: Choose Life
    2. Under New Covenant is says: Choose Life

    So once you choose, choice become void -or without necessity.
    No need, no choice, no decision to make.

    Enter, Free Will -the evidence of faith, without cause/effect; good/evil; action/reaction; the stasis of grace/life eternal. Beyond consciousness/necessity to decide; free of all limitations.

  25. maven101 profile image77
    maven101posted 6 years ago

    I would think that suicide would be the most obvious statement for free will extant...Larry

  26. The Supreme God profile image59
    The Supreme Godposted 6 years ago

    MY BELOVED CHILDREN...AFTER ALL THESE YEARS PASSED...NOW I HAVE DECIDED TO DISCLOSE THE TRUTH TO YOU...


    YOU DONT HAVE ANY FREEWILL MY CHILD...ITS ALL ILLUSION. AND THE BOOKS - OT & NT, IS NOT WORTH READING...PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR MAKING FOOL OF YOU...BUT ITS NOT ALL MY FAULT, I GAVE YOU BRAINS BUT YOU DIDN'T USE IT...


    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2153/2177363137_8312fc9e51.jpg

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What a joke. lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

      1. The Supreme God profile image59
        The Supreme Godposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        ALL JOKES APART...IM TRULY THE SUPREME GOD

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Only in your own mind. lol

  27. prettydarkhorse profile image63
    prettydarkhorseposted 6 years ago

    Sometimes people act according to emotions and they kill because of rage action over minds?
    rational thinking clouded by sudden emotions!

    Free thinking is there, I think, but your rationalization process is affected by the social you -- you behave according to the expected behavior to some extent if not you become deviant

  28. Italmeansumthin profile image61
    Italmeansumthinposted 6 years ago

    Very interesting topic. It looks like it has already sparked some debate.
    I myself would have to say that although we, as humans and as a species, may be genetically predetermined in our DNA, freewill does exist. Our genetic code specifies what are body is made from, how we look and how we react to our bodily functions, but this is all that has been laid down for predetermination. I don't think it is a matter of religious aspect because freewill exists within every person. It is in our own hearts, our own minds that we base every action and response from. And although some may believe we have paths that were laid down for us when we were created, its impossible to know. All we can do is live the way we choose to. Decide what is best for ourselves. It has always been up to us.

  29. prettydarkhorse profile image63
    prettydarkhorseposted 6 years ago

    Free will, we all have free will

    choice is upon you -- can be affected by your upbringing, social laws etc, your belief -- these things are not free to some extent

    I agree with CAGSIL!

  30. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    Just ask the lion at the zoo...  It can lay under any of the trees in the pen;  that it chooses.   this is choice

      Free will would be if it could lay under any tree any where.

    1. PhoenixV profile image79
      PhoenixVposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Freewill is a convincing illusion. Think of it as a pin ball machine where one pin ball has choice in direction. Yet the game involves other pin balls with choice or just randomness or causal direction. The pin ball chooses. Yet cant help but interact with other pin balls that alter its course into bumpers ad infinitum. The only One with freewill is the creator of the game or the "dude on the flippers, metaphysically speaking."

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You are saying that unless My free will is bigger than your free will; I don't really have free will???

           Somebodys is always bigger than mine...  Oh Well!

        1. PhoenixV profile image79
          PhoenixVposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          No lol , we are all stuck in the freewill game together and equally.

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yea I know.... angle of desent, momentum,  is their free will coming at ya or is it fleeing?   There are a lot of variables.

            1. PhoenixV profile image79
              PhoenixVposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Probably an amazing amount but still could be charted and graphed. All just my opinions. Freewill will be argued for centuries to come.

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                The Lone Ranger was captured by the indians.

                   They tied his hands behind his back and stood him in a pit that was filled with water and many, many rotten fish. The water came up to his chin.

                   As one of the indians dumped a buchet of S--t throwing its contents at his face ....   He still had the power to choose..
                .......   Do I want to duck under or get hit in the face.

                1. PhoenixV profile image79
                  PhoenixVposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Reminds me of the joke where a guy is given choices of rooms in hades.All the rooms were pretty bad except for the one where they were knee deep in poo but having coffee. He chose that room then the foreman announced the coffee break was over, and back to standing on their heads.

                2. 0
                  Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  The Lone Ranger put himself in a place of danger.It was his choice to take the chance. By CHANCE he was there at the wrong place, right time.
                  There is free will and chance.

                  1. Jerami profile image78
                    Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    You are absolutely correct.

                      A bird flying over a crowd chooses to take a dump.

                      It would chance as to whos head it lands on.

                      With every free will choice that is made, most often, Chance follows.

  31. 0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    Truly, it is amazing that such a simple thing has so many baffled.

    Free Will is void of choices. Choice always are limited to direction, pro or con. Choice is the question-answer parallel.
    That parallel is within the human consciousness -thought. It is the consciousness itself. This is all choice, choices, choosing, thinking, deciding, logic, reasoning. This is the present stasis of human condition, the need to think, to know, to reason. There was a time when we didn't need to choose, but were void of necessity. At some given instance a choice was made -Free Will moved/changed and caused necessity.

    Free Will is without necessity.
    Choice has a beginning & end point.
    Free Will is without beginning-end.
    Choice requires action and is action.
    Free Will power beyond action, yet always in motion.

    ...now i am slipping into quantum, sorry. I'll stop here.

    1. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ah, I found it. An excellent example.

      -Free Will & Choice are like a Will & Testimony.
      Note they are two items, often seen together, but not the same.

      Free Will: an unaltered, uninhibited vision, document or construct of a desire, a thing wished for.

      Testimony: the action of showing proof of that Will; to motion the elements of that desire; to manifest the Will.


      I posted this in another thread, which just so happens to answer the query. You can have Free Will without a testimony. You cannot have choice without having free will because it is free will that enables or allows for choice. If one desire exists and you act differently than that instruction/construct, you have not validated the Will, so your testimony is invalid or in opposition to the original decree/desire. However, if you move or act upon that Will --as it states/desires/envisions-- you have superseded choice and "did faith".

  32. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    Well I mowed the grass and then came in here. 

      I need to go clean out my sittin pond.

      get all the leaves and limbs out of it.

      Then I'm goina sit in it.

      Not going to stand on my head though....  Maybe I will??

      Back in little bit.

  33. lxxy profile image61
    lxxyposted 6 years ago

    I so love these conversations!

    However, I will exercise my free will and abstain. wink

  34. paradigmsearch profile image91
    paradigmsearchposted 6 years ago

    Hmmm. I did a definition search of free will. I’ve decided to not get involved in this conversation.

  35. mrpopo profile image88
    mrpopoposted 6 years ago

    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/48172

    I found that as an interesting point for this topic.

    Do we choose to ignore facts or do we ignore facts because we don't have a choice?

  36. mrpopo profile image88
    mrpopoposted 6 years ago

    Actually Cagsil, we tend to change terms to suit our needs as we wish.

    Slang is the most obvious example.

    Example: that car is sick!

    "sick" in this case does not mean ailing or that it can cause a cold (which, incidentally, does not mean you are cold). It means it's nice, it's awesome, it's cool (not temperature-wise, though).

    In this case though, we haven't even changed the term to significantly deviate from its original meaning. Free will is about the ability to make choices. Choice is the actual action. When someone misplaces choice with free will especially in a discussion about free will, it is generally understood that they meant free will.

    Out of curiousity, what convinces you to think we all have free will?

    1. Cagsil profile image83
      Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You're a human being. Human consciousness is automatic, which is what provides free will.

      If you had no consciousness, then you would not have free will.

      Free Will is part of human consciousness.

      1. mrpopo profile image88
        mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        What if human consciousness is an illusion created from natural selection?

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Albert Einstein: "Reality is just an illusion, but a persistent one."

          However, that statement was made by someone who did not understand human consciousness himself. wink

          Edit: human consciousness was an evolutionary step for humanity. What created it? Was not natural selection. But, appreciate the thought.

          1. mrpopo profile image88
            mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Why not natural selection?

            Many animals are conscious of their existence. Dolphins, apes, elephants... it's not exclusive to humans.

            1. Cagsil profile image83
              Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Natural selection? That means, selectively happens. Human consciousness is innate in the human species.
              Are you sure they have consciousness? Or Mimick things human consciousness allows humans to realize or rationalize.

              You do not know they are conscious and put them on the same level as humans is an error. Nature controls animals, like it controls weather. Human consciousness came from a mind-space expansion.

              1. mrpopo profile image88
                mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, but at a previous stage in our evolution, we might not have had the same luxury. An innate ability is one that got passed down, or was selected, to the next generation. The more advantageous the ability, the more likely it'll be selected.

                The mirror test gives some proof of consciousness in animals. They react to having an object placed upon them and remove it. People that fail this test are young children or those that have been blind at birth, but then later regained their eyesight.

                Many animals are capable of rationalization, just like ourselves. Again, apes, dolphins and pigs are the most common examples.

  37. Cagsil profile image83
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    Remember, if a person is in prison, it is because of their free will and the choices that they did make. wink

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. That's not always the case. A person could be framed or set up through no free will of their own. Do you think a person has less free will when entering prison than a person that is free?

      1. 0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Free will has zero to do with that.
        Choice put them in a time/place of occurrence where this or that became evident. Indeed, prison --especially of mind-- is still prison. A free man --a true free man-- has no conscious need, no limitation.

        1. TruthDebater profile image61
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. It wasn't choice to be framed simply because someone is framed. A person can have a completely different choice in mind and simply be at the wrong place at the wrong time with nothing to do with the crime. If a free man has no conscious need to be free, he has limitation.

          1. Cagsil profile image83
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            As 21 days said, choice put them into being framed. They did something to make that person want to frame them, regardless of the need to do it. There must be evident proof, as 21 days said, to put someone in prison. Most framed cases are debunked well before trial even begins.

            It is impossible to live life and have no conscious need of something. Individual survival requires one to consciously understand the needs of their body, so as to continue living.


            Edited. sorry typos smile

            1. TruthDebater profile image61
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks. I am not only talking about current. Women in the past got burned for being framed as magical witches. Did they get fair trials that proved them as witches? If the woman caused the town to view her as a witch or outcast for being different, it is her fault she got burned?

              It wouldn't be free will if a person is forced to act as a society or the same as others in order to not be burned. Conforming to others confines free will and free thought.

              1. Cagsil profile image83
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Now, you are getting ridiculous, because the past is the past. It has nothing to do with evolutionary position humanity is at now.
                Actually, you're right in this statement, but then again, the truth is, responsibility and accountability are the world we live in. Forcing someone to conform isn't right, but then again the survival of the human species is more important than the individual person. Truth be told- conforming is only seen as conforming when someone doesn't agree. This tends to be ego more than anything else.

                Integrity above all else, leads to honesty, which leads to love. Once that path is achieved, then it becomes possible to look beyond self. wink

                Just a thought.

                1. TruthDebater profile image61
                  TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks. I thought you would enjoy my witch analogy. The past is the future, it is the past that designs the future. Who doesn't rely on memory? Memory is the past.

                  I don't think people have the same power to choose as others. If a person is only subjected to a limited amount of knowledge in life, I don't think this person can be conscious or as powerful to decide between as many choices as the person that has wider experience and knowledge.

            2. mrpopo profile image88
              mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I don't think you need to consciously understand your needs to continue living. That's more of an instinctive reaction, hence why some animals who are not conscious of their own existence still meet their needs.

              As for the framing case, what if jealousy was the reason? Someone is successful and they're framed because of their success. Was it their choice to be successful? Perhaps, but the reaction to their choice certainly wasn't part of it.

              Many outcomes happen that have nothing do to with your intentions and the choices you make. That's why there are many cases of people incorrectly put to jail.

              1. Cagsil profile image83
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You're missing the point, even instinctive reactions are made on a conscious level, with regards to humans.
                Reaction? The reaction of others has everything to do with it. Why do think they framed the successful person? Jealously is just an emotion- Emotions are part of cause and effect. Something caused the emotion jealously, and the effects were taken out in actions of framing that person. Doesn't make it right. It also doesn't take choice or free will out of the equation either. Someone goes through the effort to frame someone, for whatever reasons, its a choice. The person who was successful made a choice to be successful. Both occurred under free will.
                People are put into jails because of human flaws and for no other reason.

                Whatever choice you make, always has a connection to someone else, and not just yourself. But, I'll let you ponder that one.

                I'm done here for at least tonight. Way to much thinking. lol

                1. mrpopo profile image88
                  mrpopoposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I'm never conscious of my breathing unless I think about it. I'm also never conscious of my digestive process - at least not until the very end of the process!

                  There are no choices in that reaction. The person felt jealousy and the only way they knew of controlling it was in a harmful way to another person. They were not aware of why they were jealous or if they even needed to be jealous. Certainly if the person had the proper information, they would never be jealous in the first place. But because they lacked this information which limited their ability in dealing with the outcome and thus limited their choices to result in poor outcomes. However, they did not choose to lack this information, that's just who they were. Yeah, to you or me we can easily see other alternatives to result in a better outcome in this scenario, but the person might not have been capable to come up with those alternatives in the first place.

                  Yes, it's human flaw that explains these poor choices, but again there was no choosing in being "faulty". Consequences like the judicial system are only imposed to protect the whole, because human fault is not a choice. Nobody in their right mind would choose poor outcomes.

  38. AnnCee profile image78
    AnnCeeposted 6 years ago

    I choose of my own free will to enter this conversation.

    I chose to get out of bed at a particular time this morning and then I was compelled by an addiction to have a cup of coffee. 

    I agree with some that God knows what will happen because he is eternal, every moment is all at once and forever to Him.  But we don't know and we make choices.

    Think of a mountain side with many paths.  We are going to climb to the summit of the mountain for sure.  But we may meander here and there according to our desires and whims and needs.  We may join someone else and let them lead us. 

    I believe there is a path that God wants us to be on, but we have the choice of growing close enough to God through the Holy Spirit to be able to understand what God wants.  We have a choice about how closely we will walk with God.  That's why even those who are saved by God's grace through the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ, for our sins, we will still be judged and rewarded according to our walk.  Our words will be weighed and our deeds. 

    I believe that sometimes God intervenes in our lives in order to bring us into circumstances that help us grow or to keep us alive.  He opens paths and closes them off.

    God knows where we're going but we are free to get there according to our own will.

    I do think free will is not equally strong in all people though.  The free is there but the will?  Not so much.

    I love that Einstein quote about reality being a persistent illusion.  When you are so sick you want to die it becomes very clear how persistent reality is.

  39. TruthDebater profile image61
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    Which empowers a persons mind, free will or determinism?

  40. AnnCee profile image78
    AnnCeeposted 6 years ago

    Here is a paragraph from an interesting article on the subject.  Thanks for the thought provoking topic.



    Acting from this position of freedom puts humans either with or against God's intentions.

    Human choices are to be made. That God's Holy Spirit totally controls anyone's behavior and the flow of events (as believed by some fatalists) is utterly absent from biblical thought.

    Uninformed disciples of particular “spiritualities” – ironically, often devoted to the Bible – may be heard repeatedly transferring their own responsibilities to “The Lord” – whom they seem to believe will take care of all their problems. Contrary to that fantasy, in the Bible human initiative (and responsibility) - often inspired by the Spirit - is central.

           Obviously, the biblical interpretation seems much less certain than the perennial. It appears that the idea of a divine spark makes an individual's union with God much more likely.

    Two points of clarification follow: first, union is not dependent on any condition of human nature; at death, the divine spark inevitably returns to Pure Spirituality (in some versions, after a series of reincarnations), like a drop of water merging into an ocean.

    Second, the method by which that union is achieved is a type of spiritual suicide; the mystic, recognizing the duality of human nature, represses the natural tendencies of the body to enter into relation with the finite.

    Thereby the divine within his own being can leave him and return to Oneness; that divinity, however, is unconscious by definition--it has nothing to do with a personal, human nature.

    Ultimately, no part of the human being ever comes into relation, communion, with Oneness, because Pure Spirituality cannot be related to anything external to itself; it is Wholly Other. As noted elsewhere about this biblical motif:

                In Judaism and Christianity we have the capacity to act under our own initiative; we have the freedom to move within the limits of time and space. We can alter the paths of history, but not God's ultimate sovereignty or the final outcome of the historical process. ...because we have the freedom to make choices, we can choose to disobey and rebel against the Creator; a choice of false gods is one cause of an individual's separation from the true God.(11)

           The Bible does not address the limitations on some individuals' freedom to choose - due to psychological conditioning, chemically caused inhibitions, and physiological constructions (e.g., the "wiring" of their brains).

    Degrees of freedom to choose is a discovery remaining imprecise, but significant. It may be fair to assume that each person is free to make significant choices, unless compelling evidence to the contrary is provided.

    However, though undeveloped as a doctrine in the Bible, the New Testament especially recognizes that, for whatever reasons, individuals need God's grace to live in harmony with the Creator's purposes. In Cherbonnier's words, which do not include "grace,"

                The gift of a transformed heart frees men at last to come into their own; to inherit the high destiny originally prepared for them; to exult with a joyous company in the glorious liberty of the sons of God.(12)

    http://www.philosophy-religion.org/thou … ligion.htm

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. Do you agree that there are different levels of free will with some having more power than others?


      Is it safe to say that a deterministic thinking is weakness while free will is empowering, even if it is illusion?

      1. AnnCee profile image78
        AnnCeeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes to the first question.  I don't know if you read my first post on this topic?  This writer seems to agree.

             The Bible does not address the limitations on some individuals' freedom to choose - due to psychological conditioning, chemically caused inhibitions, and physiological constructions (e.g., the "wiring" of their brains).

        Degrees of freedom to choose is a discovery remaining imprecise, but significant. It may be fair to assume that each person is free to make significant choices, unless compelling evidence to the contrary is provided.


        I think I addressed your second question in my first post.

        God knows where we end up because he is eternal, every moment is in his knowledge all the time at once.  But we are free to meander at will on our journey there.  As Christians we can be in and out of God's will according to the scriptures. 

        The Bible also says that God punishes His own children, I take that to mean that He does act in our lives to correct us, but not in the lives of those who don't believe in Him.  So a non-believer, I guess, would have completely free will to do as he chooses while believers are constrained to one degree or another by the will of God.

        1. TruthDebater profile image61
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. I find it amusing that the bible doesn't address some of the biggest and most controversial questions in life, yet many claim it has all the answers. If interpretation is needed to fill in blanks, I don't think it can have all answers.

          There is a difference between a God punishing children and God killing his children. When most people punish their children, they only spank them, not kill them. That would be illegal, yet the bible contradicts this while claiming killing is wrong.

          If a non believer has free will and the believer doesn't, which person is more powerful in building the possibility of a better future for themselves?

  41. earnestshub profile image89
    earnestshubposted 6 years ago

    I have free will. smile

  42. LeanMan profile image81
    LeanManposted 6 years ago

    I think it was just a film, does anyone know the real name of the killer whale in the film??

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol Free Willy! That is interesting, I wonder how much thought of free will went into choosing the name of the whale?

  43. TruthDebater profile image61
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    Are some mentally disturbed people true evidence of free will by their unpredictable/random thoughts and actions?

  44. brotheryochanan profile image61
    brotheryochananposted 6 years ago

    Since this is religion and philosophy, although the two are worlds apart... The free will you are thinking of is not the free will god is concerned with, God is not concerned with right and wrong. Gods free will involves the choice that god is concerned with, the choice to obey or disobey HIM.
        In the world there are many choices a person may make. Some don't involve disobeying God, they just show the state of that persons heart and mind and lifestyle.
        People can only disobey god when first they believe in god and accept him as lord and savior, and after, not do according to gods will. The unforgivable sin is "living in unbelief that there is God and that jesus is the son". What you do or believe or practice is absolutely irrelevant, IF you do NOT believe or practice a lifestyle of God and the Son.
         Adam and eve had the free will designed of god, and they chose not to obey. They knew god and disobeyed god, this is where the free will that god is concerned about comes into being. And there is the free will of society in which it doesn't matter if we obey or disobey societies rules, to God; but are we going to obey god is the only free will decision we ever have to make, that actually counts for anything.

    1. Paraglider profile image90
      Paragliderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      jings

      1. Paraglider profile image90
        Paragliderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Having had a sleep, I'll enlarge on that:

        brotheryochanan, you said: {{The unforgivable sin is "living in unbelief that there is God and that jesus is the son".}}

        To claim that around 80% (estimate) of humankind have committed an unforgivable sin is nothing more than evidence that you want that to be true. You want to belong to a special 'saved' group, and you want to lob judgements at everyone else.

        To which I say, "Jings!"

        1. brotheryochanan profile image61
          brotheryochananposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I don't even consider anything about lobbing judgments. I tell the word of god as it is. I answer questions according to the bible scriptures and new testament writings. Most people don't understand what i say, thats a laugh... im bustin a gut. If the whole world feels upset about what the word of god says in these matters then so be it. Jongs to your jings. And good luck with my answers. By the way i am in a special saved group and i thank God heaven is a classy establishment. i'm glad you thought about it though, kudos.

          1. Paraglider profile image90
            Paragliderposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Please try to be more careful when using quotes, to avoid including your own words in my quote box. Thanks.

            Anyway, you believe you are in a special 'saved' group and that when you speak you are representing God. Good luck with that. It makes it impossible to hold any kind of balanced conversation with you, but that's no problem either.

            EDIT: Correction, it's no doubt possible to hold a balanced conversation with you on all manner of secular matters. It's just in fields where you invoke God's tacit approval that balance goes out the window!

            1. brotheryochanan profile image61
              brotheryochananposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I don't talk about secular matters. I am seperate from the world. I don't own a tv, I haven't watched a movie in years, I don't do sports at all. I rarely shop. I have no idea what the new trends are, whos important in the world, what stars have divorced their newest husbands. There is no secular topic that i can chat about. Now if you want to stay on topic of the chat and forget about me, i good with that. Read my hubs of course.

              1. Beelzedad profile image62
                Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Can anyone please tell me if this is any different from being indoctrinated into a cult? Anyone?  smile

  45. Dale Nelson profile image26
    Dale Nelsonposted 6 years ago

    I choose not to answer your questions?

  46. BobbiRant profile image80
    BobbiRantposted 6 years ago

    Since God does not drag you to worship him, then there is free will.  What kind of a loving God would He be if he forced us?  There is no design to our lives, life is choices and life and choices are what we make it. Even if you choose Not to believe a god exists, then you are exercising free will.

    1. TruthDebater profile image61
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. First you say there is no design to our lives, but say there is a God or creator. Even without a God or creator, our lives still have design by determinism or free will. We are the effect of the cause making us designed by the causes.

      Possibly the free will is in how we perceive and react to the causes rather than having power to determine every cause that happens to us.

  47. cherilsword profile image61
    cherilswordposted 6 years ago

    Just like everything else, free will can be used to make choices that do not serve, and in fact harm. If free will is used to make an unwise decision or choice, could we say that God helped us make this choice, or rather were we allowed to make a bad choice. Bad choices are made because of how we learned to choose in the past. All free will choices are made to avoid pain and get a reward or recognition for making a "good choice." Many of choice references come from how a child made choices. These beliefs about making a choice stay with us even into adulthood.
    Once the mind learns something, it is committed to this until we make a choice to "change our mind." If we do not have an idea of how to do this, we will become confused and conflicted and stay with the bad choice because we have not learned how to make a better one.
    Because we are dependent on our past to define our future, in order to change our mind there must be a reward that will allow us to see a better choice brings better results. Learning to make this choice  has to be learned, as this choice is seldom recognized as relevant, so it is overlooked.
    Free will is the most creative force in the Universe. When it is being used to make good choices and decisions we are unlimited, for our will is as free as God's. When our free will is used to make bad choices, we experience pain.

  48. Onusonus profile image86
    Onusonusposted 6 years ago

    God: And you can't mess with free will.

    Bruce: May I ask why?

    God: Yes, you can! Isn't it great?!

 
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