What about Gods Free will?

1. 71

   Rishy Richposted 13 years ago

   God is perfectly MORAL. Morality is in always doing that which is RIGHT. Doing what is RIGHT requires one to know what is right from what is WRONG. God always knows what is right from what is wrong because God KNOWS EVERYTHING. But doing what is right and NOT doing what is wrong implies that there is an option to choose from. Therefore, there should be CHOICES of right and wrong that God can choose to do, from which he picks the right thing to do. However, God can NEVER pick the wrong thing to do, because He always picks the right thing and because He KNOWS what the right thing is. But if God can NEVER pick the wrong thing to do, it means he has NO CHOICE in the matter, i.e. He cannot help but pick ONLY the right thing to do. He CANNOT bring himself to do the wrong thing. But God is all-powerful and can do ANYTHING. But God cannot go against His own nature -- which is to ALWAYS do the right thing. Since, He is incapable of ever doing the wrong thing, He is also limited by His own nature in all the things he can do. Thus, God cannot have the CAPACITY or the potential to do the wrong thing, because that would mean that there exists a possibility for that potential to do the wrong thing, to manifest. But there is ABSOLUTELY NO POSSIBILITY even, for God to ever pick the wrong thing to do. Thus, without any choice in the matter, God does not have free-will to exercise both this potentials and then choose his potential to do right all the time.
   
   
   Since no capacity to ever do wrong exists in God, He is bounded by His nature to always do right - AUTOMATICALLY. Thus, NO FREE-WILL, thus NO CHOICE, its kind of automatic nature, just like INSTINCT. Thus, is God's actions TRULY moral if there was no deliberate, purposeful, benevolent action in choosing to do only the right over the capacity to do all the wrong? It cannot be that God cant have free-will, because God can choose to do ANYTHING. But I just demonstrated that God has no free-will or independent CHOICE in the matter of doing the right thing or the wrong thing. Thus, this whole argumentation of God being "perfectly moral" and having "free-will" and being independently "omnipotent" seems to fall flat on its face.

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   1. 94

      thooghunposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Could God create a rock he couldn't lift?

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         Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Ahem...I have already posted a forum on this question

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            thooghunposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Ah, sorry, I had no idea. I've always enjoyed throwing that one around.

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               Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Its ok...I love that line

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      Mikel G Robertsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      The fact that God chooses to do good and not evil does not mean that God can't choose to do evil. Merely that God doesn't (choose to do evil). I believe that you're asserting that a force besides God's own freewill forces God to not be able to do evil, not true. It is only because God uses God's freewill and chooses to not do evil that God doesn't do evil.
      
      The capacity exists, God's choice to not be/do evil is the only thing stopping God.

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         Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Its his choice that cant go against his nature...Not a SINGLE TIME! Which creates significant doubt that Gods free-will is nothing but illusion!!...

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      Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with what is written here but I would like to take this one step further. If God did not permit "Free Will and Free Choice" in the angels of heaven and in mankind, the problems and difficulties the world faces today would not exist. Angels and Humans would simply obey and love God and there would be no strife, no hunger, no wars, no robberies, no death etc. only harmony and love. Isn't that what God wanted to begin with?

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         pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Isn't that what God wanted to begin with?...monitering about how nature operates , how various species survive might give the answer ..

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      wifelvposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      First of all your using the term "Wrong" instead of  "Sin".  Secondly "Free will was given to mankind in effort to allow them to choose between God, or themselves.  LOVE give you the option of choice.  God is LOVE!  Know one knows God fully and never will.  Your assuming to know the fullness of Gods character and that is impossible.  You know an attribute of his character but that is not the totality of his being.   Sin can not be in the presence of a HOLY GOD, it is immediately destroyed.  Yet, he created a free will being with the capacity to sin.  There for he can create at will good and bad.  Man can not phantom the understanding of LOVE.  Our understanding of LOVE is finite. Your trying to reason out a God with human wisdom and putting God at mans level. Man is made in "Gods" image.  Your child is in your image, but is unique and has other traits out side of yours.  But we are nothing like God in many ways.  So the only way a created being can have the capacity to fellow ship with a HOLY GOD is to grant them FREE WILL.  It is our choice alone to be able to choose him or ourselves.  If we choose him we can enter into his presence and fellowship with him and he can come into us and we are one in spirit.   Love does not force itself on anyone and neither does God.

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         Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Asserting that God cannot be explained by human LOGIC is like conforming to the idea that the concept of God is ILLOGICAL!

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      kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Rishy, whats free dude, where?
      
      You rock
      
      kiss

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      Don Wposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Your comment (as applied to 'god' in the classical Christian tradition) is a category error. By that theological tradition it's the equivalent of saying: merciful orange whispers breathe fast.

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2. 62

   kessposted 13 years ago

   Have you understood that God came out of nothing? therefore all things that are nothing he have already purged from Himself.
   
   And foolishness is the epitome of nothing

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      wifelvposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Define "Nothing"

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3. 96

   wildernessposted 13 years ago

   By definition God can do no evil, therefore when he does do evil it is no longer evil or sinful but good instead.  That's how He gets away with murdering innocent Egyptian children - after He does it it's good by definition.
   
   Simple.

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      Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ok if you take it dat way then again HE has no freewill because whenever HE does something it is ryt or it bcomes ryt. HE just cant do wrong...NO FREE-WILL!!

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      1. 96

         wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That is ryt.  HE is always ryt but has no free will.  Or maybe it's all free will HE can do anything he wants and be ryt.  HE has the free will to make anything ryt that HE wants to.

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            Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Doing only the right is not the sign of freewill. Its bcoz of Freewill we commit crime & chose not to do the ryt thing every single time.

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      wifelvposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Wilderness, where does it say in Gods word that God can "do no evil."

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4. 79

   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   Lol, how come some assume position of entity that created free-will? From any perspective it looks odd. What more weird is that theists put their perspective as fact and claim it true as if god really admitted what they're saying.

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      Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      Assume God created everything from scratch, Angels, earth, plants and animals and  humans.
      
      Assume God gave free will to the angels.
      Assume God was forced or tricked into giving free will to humans.
      
      If God did not give free will to either, there would not have been any decention with the angels, and no need for that one tree in Eden that satan tricked man into eating from and disobeying God as well as no way for man to disobey for there would be no test of will.

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         Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Tried that assumption, but then reality came along and gobsmacked me.

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         skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Then again we're playing with word 'assume'. And then trying to figure out what is right or wrong.

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         wifelvposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         The question is, "What is the essence of Free Will?"

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            kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            That question is ridiculous, respectfully, meaning how do you think there could possibly be one answer?  Clever though if your intentions are to create a bigger debate, I'm fanning you for that!  Right Now!

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5. 71

   Cagsilposted 13 years ago

   The OP basis is on an assumption of a god exist in theory.
   
   There is no god, because life does not require one to exist. As for god's free will? Non-existence, because there is no god.

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      kessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      again ..Are you an atheist?
      I have seen you saying different.. please explain

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         Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No Kess. I'm not an Atheist. I am not of any type religion(mystic).
         
         What would you like explained?

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6. 94

   thooghunposted 13 years ago

   This thread reminds me of something Christopher Hitchens once said about free will: "Of course we have free will: we have no choice".

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7. 71

   aguasilverposted 13 years ago

   Does it matter, you will do as you wish anyway.
   
   God gave us choices, how you use those choices is what determines your life.
   
   Some choose to ignore God, some choose to obey Him.
   
   Most float through life carried by whims and never actually choose anything.

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   1. 71

      Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      A FINAL WORD IN FREE-WILL:
      
      You born as a human, You die as a human...Although You didnt chose to!
      
      NO matter how hard your free will choses to dominate/become God, its never going to work!!

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8. 67

   Joy56posted 13 years ago

   i would not worry too much about god, i think he will be fine

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9. 67

   chatpilotposted 13 years ago

   The biblical god has done so much evil in the scriptures themselves that he comes off as a murdering dictator. If we were to judge god by his actions by human standards as we would judge a criminal in our courts I am pretty sure God would get life in prison or the death penalty. The Old Testament is full of many of the mass murders and atrocities that this evil deity has committed and to say that god is good is a mere delusion and an outright fallacy. If he is good then by whose standards is he being judged?
   
   For the smallest infractions God has according to the scriptures (which I don't believe in) murdered thousands even millions. To liberate the people from Egypt he hardened Pharaohs heart so that he could not free the Hebrews and so that God could show his "chosen people" how powerful he really was. He allowed Satan to destroy everything Job had and killed Jobs children in one fell swoop. For what? To prove to Satan that Job would remain faithful no matter what befell him. Where is the good in that?

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      Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      The Jewish tale has no factual basis. Luckily unlike other civilizations, Egyptians were smart & wrote down almost every notable event in their history but nowhere in their history we can locate the ten plagues of Yahweh. Theres no way a society like egypt could miss such unique & enormous event from their history if it did really happen.
      
      Apart from that, the historicity of Moses is highly debatable. No single written document is there to prove his existence!

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         kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Great Post and completely accurate

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            Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks honey...I missed you

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               kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               me too

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      wifelvposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Do you believe in the justice system ChatPilot?  Do you support our armed forces?  If you were being held up would you shoot or call the cops?  Do you appreciate the public defenders put in place to protect you and your family?  Or would you like to live with out justice and protection?  If you agree these forces are here to basically keep social justice then your no better than God.
      You see God was the social justice system for man when man was not.  If he did not impute justice mankind would have killed themselves.  Why do you think the flood came?  Because we humans are stupid and will destroy ourselves if left alone with out boundaries or laws.  Your knowledge of the bible is incorrect.  Job did not kill his kids idiot.  He did not harden Pharaohs heart...Pharaoh is like a man who cheats...he wants to get away with what he has done and tried to justify it by blaming others and as time goes on and as he remains in the affair his heart is hardened because "HE" chose not to repent and get out of the affair.  I hate it when people like you quote the bible and have not even understood it or read it.  Clearly you are drawing from childhood nursery tales.  Why are you so pissed at God?  What did  he do to you? If you have a personal beef with God, post it.

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10. 69

    waynetposted 13 years ago

    I don't think god has a free willy! I think he rents it out!

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       Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       If he doesnt has it...How can he rent it out??

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          waynetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Er...because it's not free to begin with!????

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             kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             and you know from PERSONAL experience willy the wonka!

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                waynetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Don't tell anyone about my wonky willy!

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       kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I know and the nerve to charge so damn much.
       
       Its cool the other thread cock something will suffice my zombie dreams-have posted awesome videos for you on FB page
       
       glad its only there your so green, it freaks me out Dude, now lets only post thought provoking serious stuff
       
       ha pissed my pants again, ooohhhhhhoooooooo

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          waynetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah I am green because I have a monster hulk ding dong and that's why I thought it was ridiculous for god to charge others for his willy!

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             kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             I heard that about you, how dare you judge god when you charged me yourself, is that free will my friend?  I think not, ps got 50 bucks, will that due?
             
             Wanker, green willy I bet, never could tell, it was too dark!

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                waynetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                The green willy always glows in the dark!!!

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                   Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   Glows  or Grows ??

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                      waynetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Both...haha ding dong!!!!

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       kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I get it free btw

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       1. 71

          Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          So do I

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11. 58

    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    Rishy Rich wrote:
    The Jewish tale has no factual basis. Luckily unlike other civilizations, Egyptians were smart & wrote down almost every notable event in their history but nowhere in their history we can locate the ten plagues of Yahweh. Theres no way a society like egypt could miss such unique & enormous event from their history if it did really happen.
    
    Apart from that, the historicity of Moses is highly debatable. No single written document is there to prove his existence! 
    
    
    
      Jerami   We should not forget that the Holy Roman Empire spent hundreds of years collecting every document and artifact concerning this issue that they can get their hands on.
    
    
        I wonder why none of these are made avaliable to ANYONE for study???

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       Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       May be because they couldnt find one

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          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I'm thinking that if I was going to start a new .. Universal .. religion, that I expected everyone to accept for ever.
            I'd gather all of the information that I could about all other religions beliefs and sock them away.. 
             Mine would be the ONLY Infalible Inspired word of GOD avaliable to mankind.
             I'd make sure of it.

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             Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Nah...Unlike judaism, at least try to gather ONE SINGLE EVIDENCE! That would be enough for us

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                Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Do ya want to go with me when I break into the Vatican?
                
                   That's where it is all at.

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                   Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   Nah...been there done that. Trust me, its not going to help ya. Its all myth, even porn studios do possess more factual evidence than them You better start looking in some other productive places if u really want to know... How about starting with the Neocortex of your brain?? cause thats where logic comes from

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12. 0

    ankigarg87posted 13 years ago

    It means we choose evil themselves not god wants this that we choose evil

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