If men where born with the desire for other men, then what is this I was born with. The desire for other women. If I have to fight my selfish need the men with the desire for other men should have to fight with there selfish needs, both are our desire.
That is what you were born with. Such is the path you should peruse. I wish you much love in your life journey. [wave]
Homosexual desires are created in childhood through adverse conditioning,usually in the form of emotional abuse,neglect or sexual trauma.
If what you say is true, then religious intolerance and hostility is merely a drop in the bucket.
I'm sorry, DrDean, with all due respect, that is not correct. Maybe there are some individuals who experience sexual trauma and turn to same sex relationships because of it, but homosexuals are born, not made.
And haj3396, if your desire is for other women... go for it. Be true to yourself because anything else is to live a lie.
And regardless of our sexual tendencies we are supposed to not be irresponsible.
Even if we "LOVE" Ice cream ... We are not suposed to throw caution to the wind.
LOL, my life's ambition is to throw caution to the wind at every opportunity.
Caution to the wind ??? Been there done that... There comes a time that, that doesn't seem to be fun enough considering the cost..
When we get older we don't have enough caution left to take a chance..
You are correct. There have been many studies that show homosexuality in men is something that they are born with. It's believed that hormone levels in the womb are the likely cause. There are even some physical traits that are more prevalent in homosexual males, such as having an index finger the same length or longer than the ring finger (which is normal in women, but very rare in straight males).
No they are not.
Children know by the time they are 2 yrs old who they are attracted to. There has been much study on this.
They are born that way.
Hi Deborah. Agreed, nobody chooses their sexuality.
As a highly trained nurse you would know that.
I saw my homosexual nephew grow up in a loving family. His sexuality has never been a problem to him or anyone else in the family. His homosexuality became more evident as he grew up.
He has been married for 8 years now, and they have adopted a very lucky child.
His one relationship has been more stable than many of the heterosexuals in the family, he has a great job and is a well loved CEO.
To homosexuals everywhere I say get away from all the homophobes, even if they are family. These people are like cancer!
That is an absolutely, blindingly stupid statement.
Homosexuals are not conditioned through abuse or mimicry. Although those sort of things may cause problems with people, it isn't the cause of homosexuality.
People can't help who they love -- they are born this way. And the sooner people stopped worrying about other people's love lives the sooner this world wouldn't be such a cluster**** of hatred and ignorance.
An you call that LOVE, WHICH BOIL DOWN TO MAN DESIRE
DrDeanCrosby, you are 100% correct. A child's mind is conditioned to homosexuality by adults, who have advocated such alternative lifestyle for many years. They've instilled it into the child's mind for so long that he/she started believing that a person is born a homosexual. Many adults who are gay also believe that lie. What a parent does will impact the life of the child. I am thankful that I was blessed with a mother who taught me well. I was born a man, will always be a man, and I have lived and behaved as a man all my life. I am straight and will be that way 'til I die.
My guess would be you are as camp as a row of tents and in denial.
"Thou protesteth to much."
A bit of a give-away really!
I don't mind what sex anyone is, but I can assure you that your beliefs are now outdated.
Homophobia is becoming less popular just like racism.
Your sexuality is what it is, nobody needs to resist their desires or repress their needs for love and affection.
Religious nonsense from a bunch of homophobic goat herders!
That what you want to believe, try it you will like it.
..pls read my "Hub" http://hubpages.com/hub/qwark30
My brother was gay. Wonderful guy. Passed away because of AIDS.
In this instance I don't think that we should call it religious intolerance.
Social intolerance is More like it.
We generally do not want to be that social with anyone very different than ourselves.
Then pack mentality kicks into play.
Why do people take the easy out? When I am incompatible with anything; Why do we always blame everything on Religion.
Talk about standing up and being acountable??
Everyone is guilty of this one!! Theist and Atheist alike!
In one way or another.
Yes, ignorance has a lot to do with it. I didn't claim otherwise. My comment on religious intolerance was directly linked to Dean's avatar.
However, religion is undeniably the largest contributing factor. While ignorance and pack mentality may lead to aggression, even fatally on occasion, it is never justified. You cannot deny that scriptures justify the persecution of homosexuals. God did, after all, destroy Sodom and Gomorrah did he not?
Bad people do bad things, but only religion can make good people do evil things. I understand that many people will take offense at what I'm saying, but I believe it to be self-evident. Any Christian who claims I am mis-portraying their scriptures aught to take a second look at the numerous references made to the profound evil that homosexuality is projected as being.
Ignorance is far easier to cure than self-righteous vindication. And that, to me, is the difference between the two.
Even the most devoutly religious christian in America doesn't obey the bible. How many Christians have you seen denouncing homosexuality while eating a shrimp salad, wearing polyester pants, with a clean shaven face. They point out that homosexuality is an abomintation while ignoring most of the 360 other abominationsthat deal with things they personally enjoy, in their bible.
Hypocrasy is never obvious to the hypocrite is it?
It is assumed that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for their homosexuality.
But the angels went there looking or just a few righteous men.
They were being threatened with rape. Could it have been their abuse of visitors to their town that was their greatest sin rather than just or simply the homosexuals that lived there?
Was RAPE a common ocurance?
Actually scriptures are not specific as to why these towns were being singled out for destruction.
They only describe the last straw that broke the camels back so to speak.
I Don't know !!
People fear others who are different. Getting to know people who are different than us is how we learn about others. Do these people fear the differences or just knowledge in general?
People don't like others coming in and rocking their boat.
This is a people shortcoming. If I don't like someone it might be easier for me to say, cause the bible tells me so
or not! Like minded people seem to gather together.
They all think that they want the same things. We all like familiarity. And we become uncomfortable when we do not know what to expect next. That is a people thing. Theism or Non theist has nothing to do with this.
I think it has everything to do with it Jerami.
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
That good ole homophobic fairytale makes it pretty clear.
It says what it says.
You know that most people let alone most homophobes haven't read the bible.
Yes I know most of the religionists haven't read it or understood anything about it.
The homophobia that is not secular still comes from a secular source.
You have said yourself that people pick and choose the verses that they want to use and forget the rest.
Doesn't this put homophobia back on the people?
As far as the political arena is concerned ... people that are homophobic are only using bible verse as an excuse for their personal prejudice.
Human failures are of a personal nature, regardless of what excuse they use.
The bible promotes hate of a lot of things that then find there way into daily life.
If homophobia was not touted in the bible, how would those espousing homophobic crud find support for it?
The first equation is neither supported by the Bible or has it got a scientific explanation.
Butch of losers.
God does not condemn people who are born homosexual anymore than he condemns a dog for being a dog
I think, if there were this supposed "god" people speak of, this omnipotent being would be so above our petty biases and ignorance that it would probably be most likely to condemn people who are simply harming others.
Homosexuality hurts nobody. Gays can have fulfilling, balanced, stable and loving relationships for the long-term and even raise well adjusted children. I could NEVER support a god who condemns this. I would condemn that deity.
I'm no expert .. But sense you ask; I'd say that Homophobes get their feelings from the same place Homosexuals get theirs.
If Homosexuals are born with that desire, why wouldn't a person that has a repulsion to it also be born with that?
If this was All caused by what is written in the bible, the SAME discrimination would be levied upon Heterosexuals that commit Fornication.
Humanity is basically hypocritical within all social groups.
This is a tendency that we should all improve upon.
Make yourself a victim , this is not what I am doing.
Please respond on a rational level rather than an emotional one!
Personally, I care less who does who [or they]
Social and religious stigmas are the driving force behind any confusion or feelings of forcing yourself from temptation. This is crystal clear
Here's a very tough one, and careful how you address me.
I follow no structured religion, no loner [years] belong to any social membership or group whatsoever.
Still, I carried tremendous pressure, causing me confusion, stemming from things I heard, what I read, how people joked. It wasn't that I was trying to force myself to be many people's norm, often denying myself from what felt was natural behaviour to me
The hardest part, and being mocked is there was no closet for me to come out of.
Since the age of understanding sex, I liked both, and equally. Being bi-sexual, is very confusing. Girls laugh as if not to worry some girls experiment. Guys would try to date me as their perception was wow I can get a chic that will do a chic with me. Then others do not believe it's worthy of discussion, as it's simple. just make a choice and stop playing around. It brings forth no sense of identity and questionable traits are perceived.
You talk about men on men and trying to resist the urge?
My friend, I do feel for you, but still wonder why you brought the issue here in the forums?
Possibly for the same reason I just spoke of my preference, it's safe and everyone, fat, skinny, white, black, gay, straight, poor, rich, famous, unknown, smart, dumb, good writer, bad writer, popular, alone, educated, street smart, diseased, clean, drug user, drinker, funny, serious, pretty, ugly,
none of it matters. And if for religious reasons, how much faith do you really have if one must argue a point to quote what one believes?
All irrelevant, all of my post.
Because at the end of every single day it comes down to how you treated others, and what an amazing day if you got to help another.
I will regret this post, but it is whatever, now must go rewrite
It doesn't matter what a persons denomination a person is; Some part of your message should have ring a bell of truth.
Whether we are talking about abortion, homosexuality, drug addiction, Whore mongering, alcoholism , and on and on and on.
That is for that person to deal with , Just them and "THEIR" GOD if they have one.
And if they don't have one? It is still up to them to deal with.
Not my Job and that makes me happy, cause I've got enough of my own issues to deal with.
The time that I spend trying to change people that don't want to change is time spent that I am not working on mine problems..
I congratulate you for finding peace of mind.
There is such a thing as common sense, ya know, or should know.
Yahshua was kind to and cared about all, The only one who taught that being a homosexual was wrong is "Apostle" Paul.
In Hebrew abomination means horror (Unclean) as in Leviticus
But it also says that if a woman wears that which pertains to a man it is an abomination. How many Christian ladies wear pants?
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God
What really gets me is that Christians say the law is dead/done away with, replaced by grace and all you need is faith. Yet they quote the law in Leviticus to prove homosexuals are wrong.
Which is it Christians?
We are suposidly under the Grace, extended to us by the Death and resurection of Jesus. That said, I do not think we are suposed to Judge others by the Law. Just accept the grace and concentrate on our relationship with Jesus.
I can not quote the exact passage, but I do remember reading a passage that went something like "he who lives by the law shall be judged by the law" so for me I'll take the warning. Besides, the laws they had then would be impossible to live under and not make a mistake.
and I honestly do thnk it is not our decision to make. We can be discerning as to choices we make for ourselves, but others decisions are thiers' alone, not for us to judge.
unfortunitly we all slip and do it! Not good.
Yes I know, quote Paul instead of Yahshua.
Yahshua taught to live by and do the law.
We are all judged by the law even if some don't want to be and don't live by it.
And because you slip up, don't say all do.
I am not judging anyone, I am sending help, because I love all brother and If I see something that God say can damage them I have to say something. Do you love them that you could say something to help.
I have continually said that Christians should first study those things that Jesus is said to have written. Being careful to NOT interpret his message. And believe the writen words of his students only as far as they are in agreement with their teacher.
I don't believe that the bible or God is against homosexuality. I've looked at the manuscripts in their original languages and come up with a totally different translation of the verses that anti-gay ppl like to quote. What I see in the text, is that God does not approve of pedophilia, rape, and loveless sex.
Waddaya do with this then? Rip it out of the book?
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Nah... not rip it out of the book... but rather, correct it:
ve·’ish (and a man) a·sher (that which) yish·kav (to cast down / to lay down) et (direct object marker) za·char (him / a boy) mish·ke·vei (from + where one lays down [bedroom] + of) i·shah (a woman) to·v·’e·vah (an abomination) a·su (he has done) she·nei·hem (both to them) mo·vt (fated) yu·ma·tu (to death) de·mei·hem (bloodshed) bam (in/by them)
The verse is not about homosexuality… it’s about child molestation... and it is only the man who has committed the abomination, against the the boy and his mother both... and it is he that is "fated to death" bringing bloodshed upon himself, at their hands.
You can do that with the whole book, but you wont find many of your fellow believers who can read, let alone go back to the text and try to interpret it.
You do realise that you will get hundreds of different interpretations, all different I suppose?
Neuroscientists has found that the hypothalamus in the heterosexual male is more than twice as large as in women and homosexual men.
To ask a man that is gay to change his feelings is to ask him to change his physical brain.
Can you do that?
I am unashamedly a Christian. I am not a homophobe, I just believe that homosexuality was not God's design for sex. I believe that not just for a few chosen scriptures to prove my point, but because I consider the message of the bible as a whole.
That being said, I am sorry that the Christians you have encountered who were hurtful or even hateful. Some Christians forget the Bible tells us to LOVE all people, and that God loves all people. I have a very dear gay male friend. We are very close. He knows that I believe that homosexuality is a sin. But he also knows that I belive adutery, murder, hate, lying, greed, etc. etc. are also sins. He knows that I know that I am a sinner just like everyone else, but I have sought God's forgiveness. I am still a sinner and am not perfect. That is why I am a Christian, because I need God every moment of the day to help me grow to be more like Him. Humans will never achieve perfection. I became a Christian because I found out that Jesus took the punishment for my sins on the cross and when I accepted Him into my life, I was cleansed. I however need cleansing all the time.
I do take issue with earnestshubposted that the bible teaches hate. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think people who say such things are guilty of searching out scriptures where God takes a stance on a certain issue that God calls a sin, and therefore they say that the Bible teaches hate. The bible does not tell us to hate that person, he is just saying that He judges what they do is a sin. He hates the sin, not the person who commits that sin. He also says Do not murder; do not commit adultery, do not covet. Those are sins too, and none is worse than the other.
If you consider the story of the woman caught in the act of adultery it is very telling about Jesus love for her. The crowd is saying stone her, stone her. Jesus said he who has no sin cast the first stone. They all disappeared and not one stone was thrown. Jesus then forgives her with love and tenderness, then sends her off telling her woman, go and sin no more.
Someone else said something about judging. The issue of judging is that we should judge that there is a sin being committed. There is also a passage where Jesus says Judge not lest you be judged. Here the word judge connotes condeming someone to hell. He is primarily speaking to Christians who tend to accuse other Christians in a harsh way. There are a few passages where we are told to go to that person in love, and try to restore them back to the right way of living. I love the scripture where he tells to not to judge lest we be judged. When he says, "Why do you point out the speck in another's eye, when you have a beam is yours. It goes back to the woman caught in adultery. They were judging this woman with a moral sin, and Jesus called them on it, knowing they had also sinned morally or otherwise.
I understand that a person who is gay feels like they were born that way. I have seen my friend go through that issue. Just because I don't believe it doesn't mean I am a homophobe. It is just what I hear in the bible. I would like to ask you folks, what exactly is your definition of homophobe? When I hear that word I think of hate. Just for the record, I do not hate anyone. I have no right to hate anyone just because they are living a lifestyle that I believe God does not want them to live. I also don't love everyone, but strive to do so and pray for that when I realize I am not acting or feeling lovingly to a person who is obnoxious, rude and self-centered or who has done something abominable like molest my kid. I am human and have those feelings of anger and dislike, but I pray that I will forgive and even if I don't have the feelings, I belive that love is an action and I must extend some sort of love, even if it's just I forgive you. It is hard for any of us. BTW, I am in no way comparing homosexuality to child molesting. Heavens no. As for the Sodom and Gomorah thing, yes God was not happy that the people of those cities were homosexuals and he did destroy them because they would not have anything to do with God and hated him. The passage in the bible where the men have surrounded a house to rape another man, does not apply to homosexuality. They were violent criminals. Homosexuals do not go around and rape. Please don't interpret that passage that way.
I know I have offended some, but that was not my intention. I still believe what the bible says, but I do not believe we should hate anyone, and I am very sorry for all the Christians who have been harsh and hateful to homosexuals.
Know that I love you, God loves you, and we don' have to agree for us not to love you. I pray that both sides will quit name calling. God bless.
That was beautifully stated.....
That was beautifully stated.....
I agree with Lambservant It was perfectly stated.
I think that this might be a desent time to add....
I was watching a program about the "Projects"
Imagine 1000 families living there.
Then one drug dealer moves in. And then another and before anyone realized it, the Gangs had taken over.
It now belongs to them.
Metaphor # 101
What if there had been Zero tolerance for drug dealers.
Killed the first one. And the second one? Maybe a couple more! Zero tolerance!
Might have been able to save the projects.
Kill a few drug dealers sounds cold hearted but because they didn't do it; hundreds if not thousands of "innocent" lives were lost or destroyed.
I think that the Old Testament was kinda like that. An attempt at Zero tolerance. But the people strayed from the LAW and permitted tolerance to abound. The drug dealer "TYPES" eventually took over the projects anyway.
And here we are today
Lambservant, as amicable as your interpretation is, it remains an interpretation. You point at those who reference isolated incidents to show the bullying and anger that God exhibits, but do the same for the other face of the coin.
The truth it that the bible has both in great quantities when taken literally and as a text. It contains ethical principles which I find morally abhorrent, such as Abraham's willingness to kill Isaac. But it also contains a lot of timeless wisdom. As you say, "he who is without sin", is one of my favorite quotes and principles.
The point is that you have no way of knowing, as a Christian, whether you're broad approach is right (beyond your personal beliefs) or whether hate-mongering literalists such as the WBC are right. Both interpret the same text. You can point to love, and they will point to hate. Both are equally present to the casual reader (such as me).
If you don't mind me asking, I have a simple question. Is your gay friend destined to go to hell?
Thank you lambservent for your statement, and I will accept it as my reproof and correction. I agree with you that the bible does not teach hate. The people who say that are obviously ignorant of its text, and don't understand the concept of hating sin. The truth is, sin leads to death. "For the wages of sin is death." very true.
To deny that the bible is full of hate, and killing not only authorised by the fairy, but demanded is to deny your own eyesight fer gords sake!
If you like I could list all the times this god thing has wanted people killed, told them to kill, torture and abuse.
The fairy wiped out his own creation when he got a hissy fit one day, and you call that love.
I call it what it is. Psychotic nonsense!
All of man's beliefs are pieces of a greater whole, combined with logical thought is part of the path which has led us to this day, when enlightenment, though embraced, yet misunderstood is leading us, as it always has, to a more civilized world. The religions aren't right, but they aren't wrong. It was man's search for explanations which has given rise to modern science. When considering the chicken, one must not forget the egg. Intolerance exists, but so does enlightenment.
earnestshub, you've made your point well. Now I have a question for you. Let's picture "the fairy (in your terms)," as being a man instead of a god. This same fairy was a man who was a mass murderer who killed by the dozens. And then, after he committed these murders, he decided to write a book about everything he did. The first question is, what would your feelings be toward that man who did those things, and how would you express your opinion about that man?
The second question is, if you read his book, which he (the mass murderer wrote), would you deny the things that were written in it, describing the harsh crimes he committed simply because they were too graphic and descriptive? You probably wouldn't. The point I am making, and what I am getting across to you is, your disbelief in something that I have the right to believe does not mean that what I believe in isn't true, and didn't happen.
It always amazes me how people like you, who are always quick to judge God based on stuff you have absolutely no foundational or theoretical knowledge of, nor understanding of. And yet, the world we live in is much more evil with all of the child molestors, murderers, rapists, crooks, robbers, and every other kind of beast, and yet you will not make a judgement against them. It wouldn't matter if you did, it wouldn't accomplish anything, and likewise, your humanistic, idealist and irrational statement shows your true ignorance about life, its design, and mankind's purpose for being created.
Rookie, you should get out more!
I am slow to judge.
I studied this crud, and no, I am not as ignorant as goats**t as you imply.
Why don't you consider dealing with what is said instead of trying to elevate yourself as some great thinker. Your not.
I know your tome from a*sehole to breakfast time, and it seems you haven't even bothered to read it!
I find what you have written shows you to be naive.
Since you are so certain that I have not read the bible, could you point out to me what I haven't read, or don't understand? I challenge you to a debate. How much knowledge do you have of the bible, question me, and I'll give you answers, or I'll question you, and you give me answers.
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