I know this question has probably already been slung around the forums quite a bit. Forgive me if I am being repetitive.
If the religious behind 9/11 would have been christians instead of muslims, would there be any controversy about christians building a temple at ground zero?
I understand the mosque is a slap in the face to be at ground zero, but isn't it our laws that allow us to be slapped in the face? There is no law against building the mosque at ground zero, if we went beyond law and prevented the building, would that make us a free country or show we are religiously biased? If we ban one religious freedom, shouldn't we ban them all?
If they do allow the mosque, will muslims there die because of what others in their religion did? If muslims die for other muslims past actions, why is there so little anger in our country towards christians for their members past or present actions?
The mistake most people make is to think; "Oh, it's only 'some' Muslims', or that Islam had nothing to do with 9/11.
This is not true.
There was wholesale rejoicing in the Arab world. There was a text message that went around saying; "They did not miss," in Arabic, and people from Syria to Egypt to Gaza sent it on.
Osama Bin Laden is a hero in Pakistan.
To have this Centre within a mile of G.Z. is provocation. It should not be there.
The Mosque isn't at ground zero, but it's two blocks away in a commercial district and no one has disputed the right of the Imam to build the Mosque there. They have questioned the wisdom of doing so due to the sensibilities of those that lost loved ones in the tragedy.
I know one has nothing to do with the other but a Greek Orthodox church, St. Nicholas. which was destroyed when the trade centers collapsed has not been allowed to rebuild. Negotiations have been stalled after three years, after many restrictions on the design and height of the building were imposed, none of which seem to be imposed on the Mosque.
This is how it always starts. It can get out of hand real quick.
Where are the so-called “conservatives” on this issue? They should make a documentary called, "Inconvenient Constitution."
The Sufis involved with the construction of this mosque believe in inter-faith relations. They’re the last hope for us to understand the 2nd largest religion in the world. My God—what are we becoming? How far are we from realizing fascism?
The radical muslims and the radical Christians often create issues that have no "Right" outcome.
Everyone else are caught in the cross fire.
There is no reason to not build a mosque there ...EXCEPT .. for the hatred that is sure to be unleashed.
If this were a movie we were watching ? We would all know how this will end! Even before it begins.
Da--ed if we do , da--ed if we don't ????
Sometimes what is right and what is wrong has nothing to do with; what will be will be??
They are building it a good three blocks from ground zero. So I really don't see the big issue. Unless we are going to rope of downtown areas as Mosque-free zones and just give up on freedom of religion altogether.
First of all, its a community center.
Just because there will be an area for worship and prayer does not make it a mosque.
Thats what everybody keeps telling me.
Secondly, its two blocks and around the corner from ground zero.
The libs keep telling me that fact makes a huge difference.
Just because there will be an Imam and areas for worship and prayer doesn't mean anything.
I've been told by people in the know its not a mosque.
It's only "libs" who defend the constitution, oppose al qaeda, and honor long standing American traditions?
"cons" must be so proud
"It's only "libs" who defend the constitution, oppose al qaeda, and honor long standing American traditions?"
I don't know Ron.
What do you think?
That was the logical conclusion to be drawn from your well documented opposition to the mosque. The first amendment negates any legal challenge to building the mosque. The bashing of all moderate Muslims and branding them as terrorists is a great aid to Al Qaeda's recruiting efforts. Religious tolerance is a key part of our country's foundation and has been from the beginning.
Maybe the "cons" should study the issues before ranting about them.
I say the whole Conservative Republican movement is communist. They represent everything those notorious Communist in the past have done. They are very sick people.
Glen Beck's favorite reads are Nazi fundamentalist, he hates 10 victims of 911 (the ten Muslims who died there). He wants people to love the 'white' culture. He is a Christian fundamentalist who thinks that only Christianity is the way to go.
Their whole movement suggest that Christianity should be the United States Official religion and remove the freedom of religion all together.
They believe that citizenship should be revoked by anyone who is not white even if you are born here.
They want 'small' government but they also want to take control of the government... which results in a dictator.
They try to scare people into believing that Obama is a socialist or that he has transformed America into a socialist nation, when socialism is government privatization of public sectors which the Republican's had already done and gambled away peoples money.
The only 'logical' conclusion is that if they get their way, this will be a communist country led by Christian Conservative Fundamental White Republican's who want to own everything with a small government... I mean with a dictator.
But they portray Obama as such to create a distraction and cause people to fear black people or Hispanic people or Indian people or anyone who is not white while Beck dresses up in Nazi uniforms on the cover of his books that celebrate mimic Nazi rhetoric.
What is worse than just them being crazy is that they have tricked so many people into believing that they have the right to oppress not just the government and put people in danger ie: Ran Paul who somehow decided that safety rules for miners is criminal...
Sharron Angle who believes the economy should be run like a Chilean dictator.
Other people who think that the rules set for by the government that are meant to protect people is wrong.
They hate everything but what they believe and they use god as there means to trick people.
They make me want to puke!
Asserting that all or even most Muslims support terrorism is disrespectful to Muslim Hubbers and Muslims everywhere.
I think the whole issue should be handled within the State of NEW YORK, even more it should be decided by those humans that actually reside in the community.
The rest of our opinions are simply conjecture.
"The rest of our opinions are simply conjecture."
True, but we are entitled to them.
9/11 happened to all of us, Arthur. we wept right along with New York.
wow, Sandra, those are pretty outrageous statements. i didn't know half of that. do you have links to support them? i would like to read that with my own eyes.
Yes I do cossett, I will dig them up for you.
Glen Beck hates 911 victims..
Republican's "for" mandating insurance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlF7Z3mU … re=related
Republican's "for" privatization of Social Security
Glen Beck's book Arguing with Idiots; "how to fire a teacher".
Notice the Nazi uniform.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt … 29,r:0,s:0
Angle's thoughts on rape victims
Sharron Angle thoughts about the government while running for senate seat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGCBnyf1 … re=related
Sharron Angle on privatizing social security
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art … gD9HISHNO0 or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqLHHkCa … re=related
Sharron Angle on Hispanics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=540IX8R2 … re=related
Rep. on freedom of religion
Rep. for Florida favoring internment camps
And this was just a treat I found while looking for stuff for you.
Tell me what it looks like to you Cosette. If I missed something let me know.
Here, Here Give me an A MEN to this. OH Yea ... Yea for our team... Whoever that happens to be. ?????????????
This is a big issue cause some crazy person is going to bomb it.
Then Islam is going to take that personal; as if every American was behind it. The way that every American thinks every Muslam was behid 9-11.
Can anybody stop this nonsence???? Don't think so !!!
If you can ya better hurry up, cause time is running out!!!!!But that is just my opinion.
To tar everyone with the same brush is naive, people from all religions have good and bad in them. If this mosque was being built 3 miles away from GZ no one would have raised an eye brow. Surely a compromise could be reached, on the face of it it does seem to rub dirt in the wound to the Americans who lost loved ones.
So nobody takes exception to the "Cordoba House" reference to the Mosque, a place where The Muslims conquered the Christians in Spain and built a Mosque on the foundation of A Christian cathedral? No one thinks that if this a bridge to understanding with the west that the Imam should maybe change the name?
Does anyone wonder what might be said by the Saudis if a Church of The Crusades was erected in Mecca?
No one has a comment on the tolerance of the Muslims that killed the Christian relief workers in Afghanistan?
No one can even imagine how some people who had family that died in the towers might have feelings that might be hurt by having a Mosque built so close to where Muslim extremists killed them?
Islam is supposed to be a peaceful religion, and yet no one following the Imam that wants to build this Mosque can see how this will hurt relations with non Muslims?
Can anyone explain why the Imam would want to build a Mosque in a commercially zoned area far from any large Muslim population when right across the river is a large population that could use a Mosque?
Can no one see why some might not view the motives of the Imam as genuine?
The Imam has a right to build, and there is nothing to stop him from doing so save his own pure intentions for peace, reconciliation and understanding. I trust he will look into his soul and examine his motives and come to a wise decision and do what's best not just for himself but for all Muslims, everywhere.
The violence associated with Islam pales in comparison with that of Western societies. Americans tremble at the thought of a "Muslim" nuclear weapon while living in the only country to ever unleash nuclear terror on civilian populations.
You know, glass houses and all..
That's fine, but that's a different issue perhaps for another thread.
It's the issue YOU introduced. You referred erroneously to "Muslim" violence, I showed the logical flaw of your statement.
No I didn't introduce any issue about Muslim violence. I only spoke of the Muslim extremists that carried out the 9/11 attacks and I only did so in the context of trying to promote understanding for the opposition, not to a Mosque, but to that specific location and not to the right for the Imam to build, but whether or not doing so will meet his objective of promoting Islam as a peaceful religion.
I wasn't trying to make this a debate about which religion committed more violence throughout history. That's just an unproductive waste of time.
I guess the difference is the US has shown great restraint in using those weapons.
The Islamo-fascist exercises no restraint, even to go so far as to use aircraft as missiles.
Do you think a nuclear Iran will be a good thing?
Of course not - I don't think any country having nuclear arms is a good thing. But the U.S. has shown itself to be the most irresponsible of nuclear powers. No other country has vaporized babies in their beds with these terrorist devices.
Has the American nation forgotten what its ancestors did to the native American Indians? Was that not terrorism? Oh no - that was just a bloody massacre! How many innocent lives were lost and babies butchered?
It makes my blood run cold thinking about it. Nobody is in a position to take the moral high ground, it's time we all learned to live and let live!
thanks Sandra. it will take a while to go through this, but i will. and i appreciate your doing that.
Your welcome Cossette.
Also, google McCain on privatizing social security, when Freddie Mae and Mac became privatized and of course you are well aware of the stock market crash. But don't forget to see who was in control of all of it...republicans.
You can also do a google search on Monsanto and their link to the republican's in the white house under Bush and their 'special interest' which 'dictates' what you eat, what you can buy, and who is left holding the pitch fork on your health.
I live in Canada, in a small 'city' just over the Washington Border. My daughter went to school with an incredible young man who immigrated with his family to Canada from Kuwait after the first Gulf War. His father, a jeweler was taken from their family home by the Iraqis and tortured (their idea of torture was to place his fingers in a toaster) With three young children in the home the Iraqis searched the home for Kuwaiti flags, had they found them this young boy, his sister and infant brother along with his parents would have been shot to death. The flags were hidden in the cupboard about the washer and dryer in their laundry room, they were not discovered and the family lived. They are Islamic and extremely grateful to the United States. They were also grateful to Canada for allowing them to live and raise their family here.
Right after 911 the mother could no longer go shopping for food. She was pointed at, stared at and as she stood in line to pay for her groceries several people were discussing - there is one of the people who did it.
As a diabetic it was necessary that she walk everyday. Her husband was often away from home on business and her children were in school. I took my dog, an Australian Shepherd, and picked the boy's mother up in my van and took her to the park so she could safely take her necessary walks. I learned so much in those walks about the depth of my own ignorance. It was an honor to contribute to her well-being. Sadly, because of the way they were perceived and treated here they have returned to Kuwait and I deeply miss my Islamic friend.
It has nothing to do with religion other than, as has happened many times throughout our history, a group of people are holding their 'holy book' out in front of them to justify their evil and destructive visitations upon their fellow man.
you've rounded up some potent stuff Sandra. just listening to glenn beck is like being in a time warp. does he go home and laugh about his media performance?
I read about the politician advocating internment camps in FL. she even looks mean. here's an article from the St. Petersburg Times http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/l … ts/1114704
And then to top that off, the crime report in Az. was decreasing the whole time.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing … safer.html
And to top that off http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 04338.html
The owner of Fixed News, made a million dollar donation to the GOP with this statement to the democrats that they "believes in the power of free markets, and the RGA's pro-business agenda supports our priorities at this most critical time for our economy."
Wow! Sandra, that is a lot of links! I will make time to read them, as I have great faith in your sense of right and wrong from seeing you here the last two years.
Gutsy and honest as usual, I think you are the bees knees.
Well it's only the truth!
As you may have guessed I am a big fan of bees. The delightful little buggers knees are brilliant for pollen storage, and honey is a favourite food of mine
Earnest, I gotta check out sandra. Bees' knees! Sounds like a winning hubber to me!
Paradise your good judgement is only exceeded by your good taste!
Yep! She is the real deal this one!
Oh YES!! Cool, thanks, Earnest, I'm following her now!
i don't watch fox news anyway. they are just haters and 'fair and balanced' is just a slogan. and i don't watch glenn beck either although i used to listen to him on the radio some times but after a while it was just one mean complaint after another and how is that journalism?
so if i'm not a conservative or a liberal maybe i am a moderate, if we need labels. anyway i watched all those clips and just fyi that's not a nazi uniform but he made his point anyway wearing it and it just made him look silly imho. but i still don't like obama :p
and there is something going on in this country...a war between the liberals and the conservatives i mean you see that, right? both sides waging a war of words and us guys are caught in the middle. sarah palin is going after the 'white christian female over-50 vote' and supposedly that is why the president went on the view to go after the same voters, as that is who watches the view, according to statistics.
ugh it makes you not want to vote for anyone anywhere anymore but someone fought for my right to vote so i should make the best decision i can after having all the facts and honor their sacrifice.
"but after a while it was just one mean complaint after another and how is that journalism?"
It actually isn't journalism.
He plays the same part as Rachel Maddow and Kieth Olberman just on a different network.
For the past couple of weeks I have been watching fox news and MSNBC, I have made some observations.
Both networks lean heavily to one side or the other as far as the political commentators go, MSNBC to the left and FOX to the right.
The news however is presented a little differently.
FOX tends to stick to reporting what is said with occasional commentary from a contributor.
MSNBC, basically the same thing.
Beck and the rest are commentators not journalists.
I took some time to read the various replies. I DO think it is sort of "in your face" to build a mosque two blocks from ground zero. But, if we really mean this is a free country, I'm afraid we have to let that happen, and then NOT harrass the mosque-goers. Freedom of religion means freedom of religion. It is garuanteed by the Constitution of the United State of America!
They could have more tact/class than to want to do that. Just my personal opinion.
There's one delusional thought behind all of this nonsense--"I am a label. My label is different than your label. That means you are different than me."
Profound! especially for a sick bird!
Ah, well, you are saying if it was any other kind of place of worship, it wouldn't raise an eyebrow, and you are probably right. The people who are Americans who worship at a mosque are just as American as the people who are American and worship at a church or shul. And they are all probably just as appalled at the 9/11 event as everyone else in America.
Which is why I wonder why they don't have a little more tact?? Eh?
Strange how some of us hang onto our hatreds. Hate, of course, always being based in fear. I was a child in the London blitz when Herr Hitler and Herr Goring's Luftwaffe were bombing us night and day, yet I never grew up hating the 'Jerries' (Germans) as we called them. In fact, ten years later as a young sailor in the Australian Navy, I can recall drinking snapps and singing along with ex German U-boat crew - men who would have been trying to kill us a decade earlier.
We in the west are not 'at war' with another race or people of a different religion. However, we are justified in defending ourselves against a minority of fanatics who've taken to violence for violences sake. It is way of life for them, I suspect. Note the ongoing tribal wars that continue in the lands form which most of them come.
Tasitala you make a strong case for your mature life view.
As an Australian I have seen many British and Germans soldiers who came here as immigrants become friends, and can support what you have said.
Hate destroys lives.
Lady Love, when you mention the Muslim "conquest of Christianity in Spain, it is important to point out that "Christianity" in any unified way, did not exist in what we now call Spain prior or during Muslim rule....and the treatment of Muslims and Jews by "Spaniards"(even those who had converted to Christianity) outweigh in abuse and shame the idea of "Islamic conquest" conjure up in the minds of those who are unaware of the history of Iberia.
The thinly populated populace of what would become Al Andalus (the Land of the Vandals in Arabic) who were "conquered" lived in a state of overall religious tolerance, and boasted populations of Jews, various Christians, and Muslims of both Arabic and North African backgrounds....and it wasn't until typically feuding nobles who had migrated to northern Iberia started heading south to take new lands for themselves (not "Christianity") that the false notion of "reconquista" and the Spanish identity is created....
I look at the name Cordoba and I view something very different...no matter how superior Europeans tried to make themselves appear, they could not rival the education, irrigation, culture, wealth, or society that Cordoba signified...
It would be these conquerors from the north, who had never lived in the central or southern parts of the peninsula, like Americans heading west to take and populate the "frontier"....
When I see Cordoba I see the idea of living amongst diversity in peace, and the idea that we can create beautiful things, like the city that is Cordoba itself.
Well that's you, but you recognize that others will view it differently, just like Americans view the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as liberating the people and bringing them freedom and democracy, and the people their view us as crusaders and occupiers. Your points are well taken, but it is from a perspective that many here don't share and rightly or wrongly people will be insulted by the construction of the Mosque at that location. Knowing that, is it wise for the Imam to pursue it? That's a decision that is up to him to make, hopefully he will consider the opinions of all and choose wisely.
Almost no Americans believe what you have stated.
Really? Perhpas not anymore but certainly in the beginning, don't you think?
Yes, many Americans were duped by phrases like: "The Iraqi's will welcome us as liberators." and "Mission Accomplished" as well as the lies about WMD and Iraq's connection to Al Qaeda and 9-11.
It didn't last long; Americans are not total idiots.
It is embarrassing to admit that the French were way ahead of us in discovering the truth.
I wrote a hub on love, I don't think it is very complicated at base.
"Love is a doing thing"
And it don't 2% of the effort to tear down than it did to build it.
Yep! All sorts of difficulty to overcome at times.
It realy don't matter what issue we are talking about?? It is always easier to tear down anything especially when it belongs to some one else than it did to to build??
I think there is a verse in the bible thay talks about how easy it is to tear down a relationship than it would be to build one.
I think there is a verse in a lot of books that say the same. It is obvious and self evident in our lives is why.
If we all know it; why do we keep on doing it??
"Well that's you, but you recognize that others will view it differently, just like Americans view the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as liberating the people and bringing them freedom and democracy, and the people their view us as crusaders and occupiers."
True, and it is too bad that many Americans lack the motivation or wherewithall to push the boundaries of their intellects..
"Knowing that, is it wise for the Imam to pursue it?"
The Imam is working on behalf of his parishoners...the community that is going to use that center....which, like the city of Cordoba, is open to anyone of any walk of life...
But, more precisely...
The Imam did not create the 9/11 controversy.....some very disturbing others did...and I believe that he is doing the right thing by standing up for the rights that our Constitution are supposed to extend to everyone.... If he were to back down it would only inspire the animosity of intolerants and hatemongers....and seek to promote their idiotic attacks elsewhere...which has already been seen around the country at other sites developed by Muslims.
It is time our society stopped revelling in the nonsensical world of the Inquisition....
Most Americans have a hard time separating peaceful Muslims from the radical fringe. I've taught several Muslims and found them to be kind, peaceful, and wonderful young people. I know there are also violent Muslims responsible for terroristic actions, but we can't blame an entire religion for the acts of a small percentage.
One thing you can take to the bank, It doesn't matter if they build it or not, this world evolves with the interactions of different religions, they create wars ,they end wars, they run governments and governments run religions, It is always mans mis-interpretation of religions that will cause him grief and war and death and destruction.......and peace.
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What do you think?
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