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Why do we believe or disbelieve in God?

  1. Eng.M profile image75
    Eng.Mposted 9 years ago

    Hi

    this is something going in my mind.

    I will write my answer in term of questions but you don't need to answer them as mush as you do for the main topic.
    (I believe that the first step of knowledge is to be curious and ask)

    Believing:
    *do we believe because we need hope?
    *do we seek for external power because we can't find enough power from ourselves and we feel empty as some atheists say?
    *do we really feel thankful to whome gave us our lives?
    *do we rely on God's existence to feel secure that justice will be applied at some time?
    *did we know by reading and watching that there is some sort of powerful mind controling everything?(that means science led us to believe).

    Disbelieving:
    *do we disbelieve to escape from any constraint?
    *do we like our minds so much to the limit we want to use them to explain everything without concerning external powers we don't know?
    *are we not thankful to our creator?
    *we don't believe in something we don't see?(if so , how do we believe in electricity for example).
    *do we think life is worth nothing and we all will die and become nothing?

    best regards to believers and nonbelievers.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I am a believer without question.  Thankful every God damned day!  God gives me courage and strenght to break free of the confines of religion.  As unethical at is sounds to some hard core fanatics.  I really with all my heart feel free under God and there isn't anything anyone can do or say that will change my mind. 
      I believe in God and God is to me my mind and heart to be set free.  Because of God I don't fear men.  Certainly I fear things like murder and catastrophes but it's very liberating and at times I get filled up with happiness because I know that no matter how bad I look to some people, what I have between God and I can't be broken and I can't find any logical reason to have to commit my life to the ways of common man. 
      I don't believe in fighting, I live up to the commandments, especially numero uno #1, and above all else, I believe that I will be ok under God. 
      I don't spend soo much time thinking about the afterlife, but more time in my heart and mind thinking about how to set the world free. 

      I don't spend too much time worrying about non-believers, there disbelief doesn't effect me, only their actions, which goes the same for some believers, it's in thier actions that make life difficult.  With or without God, people inherited goodness, so I believe if we set them free from having to chose, the world would be a better place. 

      peace.  smile

    2. Eng.M profile image75
      Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      these are the posts which are related to my concerns:











      I prefer the two below the most.





      thanx

    3. Mark Knowles profile image62
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I will now answer all your questions to the best of my ability Eng M

      I believe that the first step of knowledge is to be curious and ask - I agree

      Believing:
      *do we believe because we need hope? Yes
      *do we seek for external power because we can't find enough power from ourselves and we feel empty as some atheists say? Yes
      *do we really feel thankful to whom gave us our lives?No
      *do we rely on God's existence to feel secure that justice will be applied at some time?Yes
      *did we know by reading and watching that there is some sort of powerful mind controling everything?Yes that is part of what makes you believe.

      (that means science led us to believe).No

      Disbelieving:
      *do we disbelieve to escape from any constraint?No
      *do we like our minds so much to the limit we want to use them to explain everything without concerning external powers we don't know?Doesn't make sense in English
      *are we not thankful to our creator?There is no creator
      *we don't believe in something we don't see?Yes

      (if so , how do we believe in electricity for example).I see electricity every time there is a thunderstorm.
      *do we think life is worth nothing and No
      we all will die and become nothing?Yes
      big_smile
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      There is a clear pattern here of an assumption that there is a creator and any one who does not believe is wrong. The questions are worded in such a way as to make this obvious. So I will re-phrase them to make more sense:

      I believe that the first step of knowledge is to be curious and ask, but I will still believe what I believe regardless of the evidence presented to me and thus render this statement meaningless.I agree

      Believing:
      *do we believe because we need hope and everyone knows that the only hope is in the afterlife? Yes
      *do we seek for external power because we can't find enough power from ourselves and we feel empty and unimportant, whereas we want to be more important than the bats and the ants and cannot accept that we are not? Yes
      *do we really feel thankful to the natural process of evolution?No
      *do we rely on God's existence to feel secure that justice will be applied at some time in the future and then waste our lives believing something in the hope that it will make our sad lives more full?Yes
      *have we been persuaded by those sad people before us whose only hope was in an afterlife that there is some sort of powerful mind controlling everything?Yes that is part of what makes you believe.

      Science- is it worth listening to?Yes

      Not believing in something that there is no proof of when some one insists it is there and no one can see it.

      *do we disbelieve to escape from any constraint?We do attempt to escape the constraints of the political and limiting beliefs of the organized religions
      *do we like our minds so much to the limit we want to use them to explain everything without concerning external powers we don't know?Still doesn't make sense in English
      *are we not thankful that nature is so wonderful that it allowed us to evolve in this way?Yes
      *we don't believe in something there is absolutely no proof for?Yes

      Electricity for example is visible to us and there are many things we can't see that are measurable - do we still believe in them even if there is just evidence of it and we do not understand the process- like evolution? Yes
      *do we think life is worth nothing and No
      we all will die and become nothing?Yes

      big_smile

      1. Eng.M profile image75
        Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        they were concerns but thanx anyway

        to which I didn't say anything below, I agree with you at.



        science leads some people to belief and doesn't do for othere.
        it depends on an individual and the reason of his research.



        sometimes we do.


        we worship our minds.


        then there's no you.


        you see light.
        anyway,do you see electrons?


        what does it worth? is it valuable?


        so sad. then we have to catch up and do everything we want with ignoring otheres.
        do all animals ignore others?
        ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        here, Mark changed my concerns to what he thinks I mean deeply in my intentions because he knows me very well .looooooooooooool

        I can't deny that each of us is influnced by constant ideas but we are still learning and I learnt something from him.

        my main concerns were just about(why do we believe or disbelieve)
        I put some concerns to explain my aim and they should reflect my character but it doesn't mean that I am searching for something with a prior judgement from me.

        lets look to Mark's concerns:



        you are approximately right.
        but don't forget that you must have constants in life and try to learn new things beside them.
        instinct and own feelings come with extra knowledge you have in life.


        may be for some people. I could be one of them but no evidences were presented by you or any other evolutionist.
        only imaginations.


        loooooooooooooooool oh man, it likes you think you know me.
        I didn't mean that.
        hope could be during life also.
        I hope you understand.


        humans are different and not more important than other creatures and believing in God doesn't change anything.


        you must be thankful to evolution man because your existence is because of it.



        if it makes you happier.


        there are many prooves but you don't believe them.
        evolution has not even one proof but you believe it.


        good point.I agree.


        why? are we ungrateful to nature?



        you don't measure things you don't see but you do for their effects.
        electrons for example.
        how can evolution be measureable.
        I see it can be assumed.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image62
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Woww. That was a big one, but I will just pick this out smile



          You seem under the misapprehension that belief in scientific evidence is the same as belief in an unseen, unproven god.

          Why is that? Because it doesn't fit with your "knowledge"?

          I am assuming you are an engineer? And therefore rely on many scientific developments for your work?

          Or do you just trust in god that whatever materials you are using will be OK? No stress testing, no scientific testing at all?

          A scaffold or crane made of reeds will work just fine - trust in god, or science?

          big_smile

          1. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            why not both?  smile

            1. Mark Knowles profile image62
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Go back and read Eng M's statements. This was aimed at him.

              And to you - why not neither?

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                too boring and uneventful smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image62
                  Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Ah. Drama smile

                  Can't argue with that.

          2. Eng.M profile image75
            Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            they are not the same.
            but both needs thinking and bias.



            I am still learning.I have my attitudes to life but many of them could be changed.



            is this logic.thanx



            see. it is easier than working and testing everything.
            looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
            big_smile

  2. Mark Knowles profile image62
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    I would just like to point out that there is not really a disbelief in something until some one says it is there.

    green univarticles from the planet junifornus are a small, green, carbon based god-like being that exists solely to prevent trnnks from the planet pshas from eating thoogs from the plantet fartii.

    I just made all that up, so do you now dis-believe in this?

    1. Eng.M profile image75
      Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      waw man , that was so quick(looooool)

      I got confused man.
      did you mean untill some one says there is disbelief?
      atheists say.
      I see you'v got a good point here but I couldn't understand it.


      I don't know about it.
      but if you give me some evidence of thier existence , I would think about it then.(their footprints or any of thier effects)

      finally, you always say that you'v studied some living being and ended to become an atheist.

      what did you study and why did you believe in evolution after it?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image62
        Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        What I mean is - No one has any reason to "disbelieve" in something unless some one else tells them it exists without being able to show it exists. So, I am not sure there even is such a thing as disbelieving in something such as god. The point is moot. I don't disbelieve in god. That's is like saying, well, god exists, but there are 2 kinds of people - people who believe and people who disbelieve.

        1. Eng.M profile image75
          Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          1-

          to be an atheist that means you disbelieve in God existence and that what I meant in the first place.

          I think it is clear and direct.

          I don't think that everything in life must be argumentative and philosophical as you suggested  earlier.

          believing in God or anything we don't see means to trust their existence from their effects.

          people who don't believe are those who think these effects of existence are not enough or convincing.
          in this case , they should tell us why they are not persuaded by these proofs.(they are not disbelievers in this case)
          you could say it might be exactly the opposite.
          then, I well ask you to give me proofs of God inexistence and I will tell you why I am not convinced.

          you got it.
          you choose the game you wanna play and I am in.


          2-

          we will assume the same.

          if you assume they exist then give me proofs and I will tell you why I don't believe thier existence and this is in the case neither of us has seen them.

          or

          I could tell you why they don't exist and you tell me why you disbelieve their inexistence.

          so, you have two games now, start from wherever you like.

          finally, you were right , belief and disbelief are very flexible expressions and confusing BUT you could deal with them if you put a reference for yourself.

          have a good day

          1. profile image0
            Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            We <<know>> that dark matter exists, ir requires no belief because science can <<measure>> the effects of it and thus observe it indirectly.

            Dark matter makes up 95% of our universe yet we know hardly anything about it, yet.  You could call this "faith" but this is not faith, this is knowing something exists because our >>instruments<< detect it through it's effects.  Usually the only faith involved is in our ability to continue to try to understand what this dark matter is.  However, sometimes we can confuse our faith in another scientist with understanding of that scientist's hypothesis.  That is rare but forgiveable and sincerely human in error.

            1. Eng.M profile image75
              Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I think we would be able to believe or disbelieve BUT it would be a different type of belife than believing in God.

              believing in God needs more than hearing a scienist talking about an especialised issue he discovered.



              it is a theory.
              it could be theoritical faith based on knowledge.
              whereas believing in God includes other factors like some forms of emotions.



              we could be closer from one fact than another or be biased in our position.
              but not necessarily believing something we don't know enough.

              thanx

        2. Mark Knowles profile image62
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          lolol big_smile

          1. Eng.M profile image75
            Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I got you loooooooooooooooool

            confusing.

          2. Eng.M profile image75
            Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            even if God doesn't exist,

            then we could say there are two groups -who believe and who disbelieve in God.

            and another two groups- who believe in evolution and who don't

            so are all believers and disbelievers in diiferent things .

            nither there's God(prooved or not prooved) nor there's no God.

            nothing changes.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image62
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              And now you are resorting to mis-quoting me. I never said that the way you quoted me.

              This is what I said:

              That is like saying - "well, god exists, but there are 2 kinds of people - people who believe and people who disbelieve."

              There is no proof that there is a god. That is enough to prove there is no god.

              Logic.

              1. Eng.M profile image75
                Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                you are right.
                I miss-quoted you not purposely.
                you could be right in your last sentence.

                may be you haven't searched for proofs enough?

      2. Mark Knowles profile image62
        Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        So, do you disbelieve in them or not?

        And there is no evidence for the existence of a god, therefore no need to "disbelieve." big_smile

        Make sense.

  3. Mark Knowles profile image62
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    lol

    Well rather than have a convoluted discussion that will confuse both of us, I will start by saying this:

    I do not believe in god, because despite my best efforts, I have found absolutely no evidence to support the existence of one.

    We can take it from there.

    1. Eng.M profile image75
      Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      there are many evidnces that we provide but you don't accept them and I will give you one below.
      you should either say why you don't think it isn't an evidence or why you don't accept it.

      *we believe God exists from its different effects(systems in nature: so if people don't convince that accurate systems in nature were made by a mind, why they do believe that their accurate devices at home were made by smart people they haven't seen).

      this is my simple easy example.


      existence and inexistence are two cases , so we should deal with them equally without superiority to any position of them.

      many believers tried to demonstrate his existence, so there were demonstrations but you don't think they are convincing enough and that differes from one to another to judge them.


      good and strong attitude but I slightly disagree with you.
      it is right that all of us must have a thinking reference , but I think we should listen to every opinion carefuly and leave our senses decide if there would be a change in our bases.

      very nice

      wonderful

      I actually wrote this thread because I was wondering why people believe or disbelieve.

      *Sandra:
      you believe to be thankful and to feel secure.
      you believe to get power from God and this really works with many people.
      is that right?

      *Mark:
      you disbelieve because you think that things people provided for God existence are not convincing to you.
      is that right?
      is there anything would convince of his existence except seeing him?
      don't you think that you become arrogant by asking this?

      thanx

      1. mohitmisra profile image60
        mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        Th sages say that man is very arrogant.One can see the intelligence in all life.We are still finding animals immensely small and huge in the oceans which we did not know existed till now.Our knowledge is so limited there has to be higher intelligence at work.We know we have a heart and lungs by reading or watching pictures about it no other way-we see it in others and not in ourselves.The human body is so complex as well is this universe.The Vatican made a statement that life or aliens may exist,we may not be alone after all.Yet the sages  also say you must come across god yourself,you believeing  is good but ulitimate proof lies in the experience called enlightenment.

        Poet Mohit.K.Misra

        1. Misha profile image77
          Mishaposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          This definitely answers OP question tongue

          1. Eng.M profile image75
            Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            OP??

            1. Mark Knowles profile image62
              Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

              Original Poster.

              1. Misha profile image77
                Mishaposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                Also could be TS - Topic Starter tongue

                1. Eng.M profile image75
                  Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                  thanx
                  loooooool
                  are these common?.

                  1. Misha profile image77
                    Mishaposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                    yep, all over the net smile

              2. Eng.M profile image75
                Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                thank you

                I think some main disagreement betweeen belivers and disbelievers are:

                1-disbelievers need to see God.
                2-disbelievers think proofs believers provided are not convincing.
                (this need for deep scientific researches in different areas)
                3-disbelivers' concerns about who created God.

                *what do you think?

                1. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes the logic will be who made god?
                  Poet Mohit.K.Misra

                  1. Eng.M profile image75
                    Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                    God is the first thing, no body made him.

                    if we believed in evolution for a second.
                    then, everything was made by chance or nature.

                    that means nature is the first thing in life.
                    there must be a first thing.

                    either God(powerful) or nature(weak)

                    some atheists say that nature is strong.
                    if it is so , then it is living and that what we call God.

                    is that rationl?

          2. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            When I say spasiba am I correct-went to Russia when i was a kid.

          3. Eng.M profile image75
            Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            you are right.

            but it answers part of my concerns and not all of them.

            in my opinion, biased public scientific researches are very important to clarify the truth.(whatever it is)

            but could that be possible through media?

        2. Eng.M profile image75
          Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          you are right.

          creation complexities are everywhere.

          atheists believe these complexities came by chance but they don't know how.

          believers (especially scientists) should clarify that these complexities are very accurate and couldn't have been without a powerful designer.

          you can't convince them if they keep being arrogant.

          we might persuade them if we start from the begining and give them the chance to persuade us of thier opinions.

          we could do it if we try to think like atheists and be biased.

          thanx

        3. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          My ultimate proof came from seeing God, enlightenment came later.  smile  My ultimate faith was put to the test.  To stand in the face of fear, to feel your heart drop into the pits of your stomach, to feel your bones weaken beneith you, your mind and body parylized in fear.  But I stood there and looked into God, my mind taken, my doubts and faith replaced by knowledge that the One came, scared me half to death only by it's presence, yet never hurt me.
          God's presense is so powerful that even though I love and cherish the day we met and am eager to meet again, but I will be just as fearfull next time but instead of relying on faith, I can rely on proof, that God does not hurt people.  smile

          1. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            seeing God, enlightenment-same thing Sandra.
            Poet Mohit.K.Misra

            1. profile image0
              sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

              not it isn't tongue

              1. mohitmisra profile image60
                mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                Whats the difference?

                1. profile image0
                  sandra rinckposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                  Well...when you see God, then you can understand the difference. 

                  much love to you Mohit.  smile

                  1. mohitmisra profile image60
                    mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                    Do you mean you felt his presence the aliveness of the universe?Then got enlightened later on
                    Many mountaineers and astronauts have felt the aliveness of the universe.I think Neel Armstrong-he  was an athiest and after he went into space became a believer and a preacher.
                    Poet Mohit.K.Misra

                2. Inspirepub profile image85
                  Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Many people have seen God without becoming enlightened.

                  Many people have become enlightened without seeing God.

                  The two are completely independent phenomena.

                  However, I do know of several people who have seen God and then afterward mistakenly believed they were enlightened as a result.

                  Jenny

      2. Mark Knowles profile image62
        Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, that is correct. The things people provided for god existence are not convincing to me.



        What you seem to be saying is that because I have a stereo in my house that was made by  a smart person (assuming the robot that made it had a programmer) this is in fact proof that anything else that is in existence appears to be a system, this must therefore have been created by a being with a mind. And this being was god. And you know this. And there could not be another explanation. This must be the way it happened.

        Is that correct?

        Just to be certain:

        It must have been created by a god because there is no other explanation.

        And you know this.

        That is correct? No other explanation. Must have been made by god. There must be a supreme being with ultimate powers that is omnipresent and omniscient. And you know this for sure? Because it is the only possible explanation.


        There are many things that would convince me of her existence. I have listed a few elsewhere, but yes lots of things. What do you have to offer other than the argument you have already given? Anything concrete. Anything that doesn't rely on me taking your word that this is the way it is because there is no other explanation? Anything really..... Please?



        No. I think you are arrogant in claiming to know the origins of our world and the universe that surrounds it.

        big_smile

        1. Eng.M profile image75
          Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          *fair enough


          *yes, correct.


          *you are right, you are being rational.


          *like what?
          *is there anything in life more powerful than knowledge.
          *and yes, 'no other explanation' is the only way we have if you wanted to believe without a holy book.
          *reading alot about creatures is the only way of believing.

          *I can understand your logic of seeking another way to believe other than the 'only explanation' concept.
          *but, don't forget that we can look at everything in the world from different angles depending on our situations.
          *may be God wanted the 'only explanation way'.
          *do you think that  this way didn't work with many believers and they think it did? did they want only their empty as you said earlier? what empty?


          *may be.


          I was just asking and not saying you are arrogant.
          I really didn't mean to insult you.
          I am sorry anyway.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image62
            Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            Oh, I am not offended in any way. No need to apologize.

            But, I do not understand the argument that you are putting forward for proof of a god.

            It just doesn't make sense to me. Saying that the only possible explanation for something that we do not know the beginnings of is that there must have been a god that made it makes no sense to me as a rational person.

            I can certainly understand how it would make you feel better. Part of something bigger than yourself and somehow important to that.

            I do not feel the need to do that.

            I accept my place in the scheme of things, and that does not include a creator. Or at least, not a thinking being such as most religions describe.

            If you want to argue that nature is the creator, maybe I could go with that, but I still don't see any intelligent design behind it.

            In fact, there are a lot of good arguments against that idea. But I will not share them with you (I will wait for Jenny to do that)

            From my own personal perspective though. I thought about it, studied it, read all the religious books about it and came to the conclusion that there was no god.

            Then, I discovered evolution.

            Not the other way 'round.

            And I cannot accept the argument that because evolution does not explain abiogenesis, it is invalid.

            You can only make that argument from a faith-based position.

            As for what you call knowledge, I would disagree that you have any. You may have a belief, or faith, but that is not the same thing.

            1. mohitmisra profile image60
              mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

              Mark your inner being is god,you are it.
              Poet Mohit.K.Misra

            2. Eng.M profile image75
              Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

              just in case


              why it doesn't make sense?
              creating is either done by God(mind) or nature(blind).
              I choose mind because I see designing everywhere.

              what is designing? it is accurate planning.

              I feel better and better when I get closer from the truth.
              then, I will feel happy 24 hours a day.


              did you try to do that?
              do you know the difference?


              everyone should accept his place.
              believing of God existence doesn't cancel this.
              so you believe in a creator but not a thinking one? why?
              because there are no proofs that it is a thinking thing in your opinion.


              how do you explain human intelligence?
              did you study creatures enough?
              didn't you notice any intelligent system?
              do you want me to bring you some intelligent designed telecommunications systems in nature since I am an engineer in this aspect?


              as you wish.


              I respect your personal experiences but I don't agree with you.
              many believers become believes because thier parents were so.
              I started from the beginig and I realized God existence but I still don't understand everything about him or his creatures.
              but I am sure there is intelligence in nature.


              what about science-based position?
              what about logic-based position?


              may be.
              who decides?
              what knowledge are you talking about?
              knowledge is infinite and comparing to it, we all know nothing.


              faith comes from knowledge and luck.

              thanx for your precious time

              1. Mark Knowles profile image62
                Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                Neither of these hold up to rational arguments. (see the other thread)

                But your position remains the same. The only thing you can understand or accept is that there must have been a creator. This is the only theory that makes sense to you.

                There must have been a creator because it could not have just happened on its own. It could not have been an accident. It could not be a joke. It could not be an experiment by an Alien species. The Flying Spaghetti monster could not have done it. We could not be just a universe inside a pen cap inside another larger universe. There could not be billions of alternate universes and this one is different to all the others in that it happened naturally. No other possibilities exist for you.

                Therefore there is a creator. And you know the intention of this creator.

                To me, this is the height of arrogance.

                But if you would care to back it up with some science or logic, I would be happy to nominate you for the other thread big_smile (You cannot nominate your own stuff)

                The whole idea of an intelligent creator with an interest in me just doesn't make sense.

                Why doesn't it make sense?

                That is hard to argue, and the only need I see to argue it is that some people choose to believe it and insist that they know the truth.

                It doesn't make sense because of what I see around me. If I was omnipotent, I would have done a much, much better job than this. Would I have created a world full of people that continually strive to enslave and kill those around them? No. Would I have created a world full of humans intent on self-destruction? No.

                If you believe in the christian god - would I have created a hell to hold the demons and then accidentally stick a bunch of human souls in it to roast for all eternity? Nope......

                If you choose to believe this, I wonder why it is important that you attempt to persuade others that this is the case?

                1. mohitmisra profile image60
                  mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                  No one knows the intention correctly.No one understands its vastness.To come in contact and experience bliss is posssible,and go to godhead on death.Paramhansa Yoganada talks about going to different dimensions after death and teaching love even there-all knowledge is not possible i fully agree with you..Like the Sikh saints say how is the son to know about the father.
                  Poet Mohit.k.Misra

                2. Eng.M profile image75
                  Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                  consider rationality, forget everthing else.
                  lets just talk about logic.



                  yes that's right.
                  there must be a powerful mind.



                  everything is possible , but a mind is still required.



                  I don't know.



                  it depends on many factors to judge this I guess.



                  lets start with logic.



                  we can believe but can't insist that our belief is the truth untill we discover by ourselves when we die.



                  he could.
                  but may be he has an ultimate great purpose by doing what he did.
                  like testing us.(I just assume but am not sure loooooooooool)



                  I believe in one God.



                  this is your strongest argument.
                  many people don't want to believe because of this.
                  we need to think about more.
                  do you know exactly what type of punishment will be there?
                  neither of us do.
                  is it going to be justiceable? (I think so, because God has created justice)
                  what is justice?



                  I don't know what this is to believe in or not.
                  believe me, I am not trying to persuade others of anything.
                  I am trying to understand your logic and learn from it.

                  thanx and have a nice quite weekend

    2. Mark Knowles profile image62
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      lolol and back where we started. big_smile

      1. Eng.M profile image75
        Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        do you think it is enough?
        not finding evidences.

        you should have been neither a believer nor a revolutionist since you have no evidences for the last one.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image62
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          What's a revolutionist? Because I don't think I am one of them either smile

          Yes, it is enough. But there are other reasons also. But hard to argue in a logical fashion.

          I have experienced what I think you call god, and it is not god.... big_smile

          I read the holy books and they didn't make any sense and some of them are clearly either lies, contradictory information or misinterpretations of other books that do not subscribe to the same religion. And much of what is written in them is clearly self-serving. I have only ever met one man who practiced what he preached.

          I have experienced and seen things that could not have happened if there was a god.

          I am much more anti-religion than anti-god, but the two go hand in hand for most people. smile

          1. Eng.M profile image75
            Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I meant evolutionist.

            sorry, English is not my first language as you can see.


            are you sure you are not a revolutionist or going to be one?
            looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

            1. Mark Knowles profile image62
              Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              I could be one of them lol

  4. Thom Carnes profile image61
    Thom Carnesposted 9 years ago

    We have discussed this issue several times before on this particular Forum.

    My position is basically the same as Mark's: Why would we need to prove the non-existence of someone whose existence cannot be demonstrated in the first place?

  5. seohowto profile image60
    seohowtoposted 9 years ago

    I've read somewhere that people believe in God because it helps them to accept the fact that they will die. I remember that I was reading that article and thinking: "yeah, so much true - the religion helps people to accept death, but in most cases it makes their life miserable".

    1. Eng.M profile image75
      Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      very strong argument.
      but I think people make their lives misrable.

      people scare from death and when they believe in God , they hope there will be a better life when they die.

  6. Mark Knowles profile image62
    Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago

    Eng.M -

    You keep talking about logic, but you have not used a logical argument to back up your statement. I do not consider this to be a logical argument:



    Would you mind giving a different explanation, because this just sounds to me like  a question rather than a logical argument. And it also assumes that I believe my "accurate devices," by which I think you mean things like a clock were made by smart people. Even the things I have made myself?

    i.e. what I think you are saying here is this -

    "If you believe your clock was made by a smart person, why do you not believe that the universe was also made by a smart person?"

    And I fail to see the logic in this question. Or how it in any way makes any sense whatsoever actually. It just appears to be another way of saying:

    "I do not know the answer. Therefore there must be a god. Because it is not acceptable to me that I do not know the answer. I have no evidence or proof that this is the case, but it is more important to me that I have an answer than that I have a correct or reasonable answer."

    Then perhaps I can understand how you have logically deduced that there is a god?

    1. Eng.M profile image75
      Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      simply without questions.

      *IF there must be a smart maker for a small devise (your PC)
      *THEN there must be a smarter maker for a larger device(your brain)

      both, PC and your brain ,make calculations.
      both have short term and long term memories.

      did you read any information of what you brain do.
      tell me one?

      tell me where the illogic of what I said is?
      point to it.
      don't keep going around me and yourself all the time.
      you are making me dizzy man.
      looooooooooooooool

      if you don't consider this  logic.
      then, tell me you logic.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image62
        Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

        OK:

        What I do not understand is the leap from one to the other.

        Why must there be a smarter maker for a larger device, just because there was  a smart maker for my PC?

        I see no logic to this statement you have made and cannot see the connection. There is no logical reasoning or argument here. Nothing. If you are interested in the various types of logic available to use, this is a good link to the meaning of logic.

        So, I will attempt to use logic to prove this statement by adding a few logical arguments, but I will highlight the point at which it fails to make any sense.


        There is a smart maker for a small device - in this case, a PC
        This PC has a manufacturer and serial number
        I have spoken in person with the company that made the PC
        I know they exist for sure because I have spoken with them
        Therefore I know who made this PC - Apple
        This PC makes calculations
        My Brain makes calculations
        Because a PC and my brain both make calculations, this means that there must have been a smart maker for my brain
        Therefore there is a god

        See the problem? I could as easily use this flawed argument in almost any way I choose:


        There is a smart maker for a small device - in this case, a PC
        This PC has a manufacturer and serial number
        I have spoken in person with the company that made the PC
        I know they exist for sure because I have spoken with them
        Therefore I know who made this PC - Apple
        This PC makes calculations
        My Brain makes calculations
        Because a PC and my brain both make calculations, this means that my brain was made by the same company that made my PC. In this case, Apple.
        Therefore I was made by Apple

        See what I mean? big_smile

        1. Eng.M profile image75
          Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

          I saw what you mean.

          lets look at it again.


          your PC was made by Apple, you called them and you know they have the ability to make it.
          your brain is more complicated than you PC and neither Apple nor any other known company you may call and ask can make it.
          therefore it was made by a more powerful mind than Apple.


          you may refuse this to be logical because you think the last statement just shows there's no other explanation than it.

          *can't 'the only explanation' be logical?

          what is logic?
          correct me please: it's a conclusion about something you don't know by derving it from something you know in a reasonable clear way.

          for example, Peter is John's father.
          therefore , he is older than John.

          logic can be taken in different ways.
          some logic results are more argumantative than others.




          this is a weak logical result because your brain and PC are similar but not identical.

          here is a stronger one:

          There is a smart maker for a small device - in this case, a PC
          This PC has a manufacturer and serial number
          I have spoken in person with the company that made the PC
          I know they exist for sure because I have spoken with them
          Therefore I know who made this PC - Apple
          This PC makes calculations
          My Brain makes calculations but more accurate and powerful than any man made PC

          Because a PC and my brain both make calculations with different capabilities, this means that my brain and my PC were made by different level of powers.




          you don't need logic to realize this but knowledge.
          you use your senses to know it.

          you use logic in case you didn't call them and ask them but deducted that there must be a maker by observing PC abilities.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image62
            Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

            That is a reasonable way of describing it.

            But you are not doing that.

            You are jumping from one thing to something completely unrelated without using any steps to get there.

            Lets take a look at your reasoning:



            First of all, you have missed all the steps that I can go through to ascertain that my PC was indeed made by Apple:

            1. It says Apple on the case
            2. It said Apple on the box it came in
            3. I have spoken to Apple, both on the phone and in person
            4. etc etc etc.......

            But you have agreed that I cannot do those steps with my brain.

            Yet you are saying the making of my brain is exactly the same as the making of my PC

            Despite some rather glaring differences

            1. My brain cannot do many of the things my PC can - that is why I need one
            2. I cannot connect to the internet with my brain (yet lol)
            3. My brain does not say Apple on the case
            4. My brain did not say Apple on the box
            5. etc etc etc.......

            Yet as far as you are concerned, they are the same for the purposes of this argument.

            PC vs Brain - The same.

            Therefore a god made my brain.

            This is also discounting the fact that there are any number of alternate possibilities that make more sense to a rational person. Especially when you consider the other evidence around us.

            What you would need to do is fill in the blanks between the 2 statements to be able to call this a logical argument.

            Keep on repeating the same thing over and over without adding anything is not doing that. All you are doing is saying this same thing in slightly different ways. And it is obvious to me that you are starting from the premise that there is a creator and working backwards from that.

            Rather than logically deducing the existence of one from the information at hand.

            Just keep on saying.

            "This exists, therefore there was a creator."

            Which is what you are doing, is not a logical deduction or reasoning.

            You are working backwards from a pre-decided conclusion and attempting to find things to support that conclusion.

            "There was a creator. Therefore anything that exists proves that there is a creator. Therefore there is a creator."

            Is what you are actually saying.

            1. Eng.M profile image75
              Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

              may be.
              I will try to follow this way and please judge my statements bias as much as you can.
              try to forget we arguing from different viwes and I will.



              what thing to what?
              I told you they are similar but not identical so they don't have to be exactly the same but they only have to follow the same logical rules.
              that means we will deal with logic in a certain way and see if it can stand alone.

              I will put some logical rules at the end of this post and you suggest what it needs to be replaced or changed bias.



              actually I didn't miss it.
              but let assum that you have a product you can't contact his maker, are you going to say it doesn't have one because I don't know it?
              NO........this is LOGIC (DO you understand?)
              also, I haven't agreed they are exactly the same.

              so, why do you think identicalness is important in logical relations?
              if it is so, you need no or less logic to know results.



              I will by setting some rules for our logic comparisons.



              may be you are right.

              lets set our logic comparison rules:
              1-we have a PC and and you brain.
              2-we don't know who made both of them and can't contact thier makers.
              3-both make calculations but with different complexities.
              4-they are similar for what we want (calculations) and not identical.
              5-they have different functions but still need similar capabilities.
              6-both have memories.
              7-both need power.

              Now in most cases

              *PC ----- make certain calculations ------ certain capabilities ------ certain accurate functions ------ we don't know maker -------WE ASSUME it has a certain desiner (because it is doing its job almost without mistakes and that means it has a maker that can make something with these capabilities)

              similarly,

              *Brain ----- make certain calculations -----certain capabilities ----- certain accurate functions ----- we don't know maker ------ WE ASSUME  it has a certain designer (because it is doing its job almost without mistakes and that means it has a maker that can make something with these capabilities)

              you got my point.

              now, I slightly began to understand your logic but it is kind of coming and rashly disappearing from my mind.
              loooooooooooooooooooooooooool
              I want to get to your mind, so help me please.

            2. Mark Knowles profile image62
              Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

              This is the crux.

              You are starting from an assumption that every thing is made by a creator.

              And if you start from that point, your logic makes 100% sense. Absolutely. No question. This statement makes complete sense:


              But. Only if you start from this premise:

              Everything was made by a being with a mind.A Creator.

              If we assume this, your logic is bang on. Perfect. No argument from me. Sure, I am more complex than my PC, therefore I was created by something with a more powerful mind than Apple. No argument.

              But. That is the only way it makes any sense.

              Now - assume that this premise is incorrect and make this logic work.

              Start from a different point. Whatever you like other than "everything must have been created by a being with a mind." Your choice.

              1. mohitmisra profile image60
                mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                The Buddha says that thoughts are the building blocks of the universe.Its your thoughts which make everything manifest.Each being the centre.
                The shamans say we co-create.

              2. Eng.M profile image75
                Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                do you want expression games or logic/

                I wont assume there is a creator.

                I don't know what this word mean.

                lets use the same rules



                Now in most cases

                *PC ----- make certain calculations ------ certain capabilities ------ certain accurate functions ------someone must have made it that accurate.

                similarly,

                *Brain ----- make certain calculations -----certain capabilities ----- certain accurate functions ----- we don't know maker ------ someone must have made it that accurate.

                really man, I was closer from your mind , so don't let me go further from it.
                I really wanna understand how you think.

                I didn't start from a fact there is God.
                I started form :
                this is something-----it is accurate-----who made it accurate
                (chance doesn't make anything accurate)

                regards

                1. Mark Knowles profile image62
                  Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                  Are you sure you didn't start from the fact that there must be a creator ? big_smile

                  1. Eng.M profile image75
                    Eng.Mposted 9 years ago in reply to this

                    yes , I am sure.

                    these are conclusions I guess.

                    otherwise, tell me what a conclusion is?

                2. Inspirepub profile image85
                  Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  BANG!!

                  There's your problem.

                  Chance and accuracy are totally compatible.

                  A roulette wheel in a casino operates by chance - it is legally required to be completely random, and it is policed and monitored to make sure it is completely random.

                  Whe it operates completely randomly, its accuracy is amazing. Run the wheel over and over for as long as you like, and it will always come up with a red 18 out of 37 (or 38 if there is a double 0) times on average.

                  Password-cracking software relies on chance-based algorthims to accurately arrive at the correct password.

                  GPS systems use chance-based algorithms to make them so accurate in pinpointing locations.

                  Quantum mechanics is all about chance at the most fundamental level, and it underlies some of the most accurate cutting-edge computers.

                  Not only that, but clouds form by chance, yet accurately deliver their rain to the ground every time.

                  Rain falls where it falls by chance, but accurately makes its way to a stream or river, and ultimately to a lake or ocean.

                  There is nothing supernatural or mysterious about the role of chance in producing accurate outcomes.

                  You are mistaken in believing that accuracy requires mind.

                  Jenny

  7. Thom Carnes profile image61
    Thom Carnesposted 9 years ago

    I think this is more a question of *probability* than of logic.

    We know that a clock or a computer could not exist without the intervention/ involvement of an exterior intelligence because all our combined human experience and observation tells us that such an event would be totally beyond the balance of probability.

    But we do not have access to this sort of experience and observation when it comes to the human brain (or, presumably, the universe). We have what we have. We can make assertions about their origins, based on our personal beliefs and convictions, but they are nothing more than that: assertions.

    It is, I believe, a monumental leap (of faith, not of logic) to say that because we do not know the answer to a question, or cannot discover an explanation for a particular phenomenon, that the answer or explanation is therefore a supernatural one.

    Now *that's* illogical.

    1. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      I think this is more a question of *probability* than of logic.
      Cutting through the truth,perfect.

  8. Misha profile image77
    Mishaposted 9 years ago

    LOL Mark, did you lose your sleep over this? yikes wink

    1. Mark Knowles profile image62
      Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      No lol. I wrote my first press release the other day (with a lot of help from Jenny)

      http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/05/prweb958574.htm

      And I lost sleep over that big_smile

  9. Misha profile image77
    Mishaposted 9 years ago

    Wow! That's a big one! My first and the only one was like a third of that smile

    1. Mark Knowles profile image62
      Mark Knowlesposted 9 years ago in reply to this

      This is my first attempt. I will see how well it does smile

  10. Thom Carnes profile image61
    Thom Carnesposted 9 years ago

    I think that what Eng.M is trying to do is called "arguing from ignorance": ie attempting to draw a conclusion from a lack of knowledge.

    One can only draw a conclusion from a piece of knowledge: a fact, or facts. Where no knowledge or facts are available, no conclusion can be drawn.

    We don't (yet) have any knowledge or facts about the source or origin of the universe, therefore no conclusion can be drawn in respect of that matter.

    One has a perfect right to make surmises or conjectures, of course.

    What one does not have the right to do is call them "conclusions".

  11. Thom Carnes profile image61
    Thom Carnesposted 9 years ago

    It is very tempting to assume that because something has the *appearance* of being designed that it actually *is* designed.

    We know that the only way that man-made artefacts such as clocks and computers get here is because they were created by an intelligent designer, and it is overwhelmingly and understandably tempting to try to apply that same supposedly "logical" principle to organic structures such as eyes, brains and universes.

    But it just won't wash. Why? Because it makes no sense to try to explain statistical improbability by postulating something even more improbable (eg a supernatural being).

    We've spent enough time already on this Forum discussing evolution by natural selection - ie the infinitely slow, gradual development of organic structures from simple beginnings to
    (apparent) statistical improbability .....

    So I won't bother mentioning it again!

    1. Peter M. Lopez profile image90
      Peter M. Lopezposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      This is logically correct, and you guys know I believe there is a creator, but I'm not entirely sure who, if they got to design the universe, would have chosen this particular design.  Yes, there appears to be design from our perspective here on earth, but until I meet my alien friends who say that there appears to be a design from their home world, it's hard to imagine designing things the way they are.

      In other words, while I too marvel at my creator's design, it is somewhat foolish of us (believers) to assume that we really understand the design.  Although, I do believe we understand more and more.



      Perhaps this is a topic for another thread, but it's too tempting...

      elaborate please...no beginning?

      P.S.  How are my favorite Englishmen this morning?  BTW Mark, in Texas, the grammar would not be so proper, it's "rode hard and put up wet!"

      1. Mark Knowles profile image62
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        LOL - I was paraphrasing, although I lived in Virginia, so we have several options ranging from serious redneck to the other end of the scale. Ever see the film "deliverance."

        And yes, I am good , thank you. "Rode hard and put up wet" lol - I had a tough decade there around age 25-35 and aged more than I would have liked big_smile

        No beginning.

        I have to say I am not enamored of the big bang theory because I don't understand it and it doesn't fit with my understanding of things. I have tried and read all sorts, but it seems that the theory begins from the supposition that there was a beginning.

        I try not to dismiss things I don't understand just because I don't understand them, but it makes sense to me that there was never a beginning.

        And if there was a beginning, what was there before this beginning? Nothing? How can there be nothing?

        For there to be nothing, there has to be somewhere for there to be nothing. Therefore there is something.

        Definitely a new thread. Science or Religion? big_smile

        1. RFox profile image83
          RFoxposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          We agree again Mark. Lol. big_smile
          I don't believe in a beginning either. We as humans always want to think of things in a linear fashion and a lot of times this not helpful.

          Obviously I don't ponder how we came to be anymore. We are. Life is. C'est la vie.

          However, when I was younger I thought about the Big Bang Theory and for my mind (as I don't believe in beginnings) I wondered if our ever expanding universe was not the product of an ever contracting one.

          When matter contracts there comes a point where it can't contract anymore and must by the force of energy begin expanding again, thus causing the Big Bang theory of the ever expanding universe.
          So by my logic, when our universe expands to the point where it cannot go any further it will begin to contract, the force of energy pulling it in on itself until it can't contract anymore and thus the cycle continues infinitely. smile

          Are there are physicists on here that could elaborate if this might be theoretically possible?

          1. Mark Knowles profile image62
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Scary isn't it? wink

            1. RFox profile image83
              RFoxposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Yep. I checked myself in for psychiatric evaluation but they said it was a lost cause. tongue

  12. Thom Carnes profile image61
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    Hmmm ....

    I sometimes wonder if this fixation we have that everything has to have a beginning and an end is perhaps due simply to the poverty of our imagination.

    Evolution has provided us with pattern-seeking, pattern-identifying brains. This has obviously been an enormous advantage to us during our long and arduous development as rational beings.

    But the downside is that we may have a tendency to perceive patterns where none actually exists: a sort of intellectual coping mechanism.

    Perhaps infinity is exactly that: infinite.

    Hi Peter! Hope you and you family are well.

    Hi Mark! Ca va? I've just watched the Monaco Grand Prix. Is the weather over there really that bad?

  13. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    Most of astronomical science today, I believe is the convoluted bolstering of the Big Bang, black holes etc. Makes for a lot of blather, keeps the money rolling in, and if any astronomy student wants to make a career, they had better not doubt the big bang.

  14. Mark Knowles profile image62
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Thom cava back smile

    Yes - the weather here is atrocious. It has been pissing down for ages. One day it is hot as hell, the next it is freezing and raining.

    And if some one wants to explain the theory of the big bang in words I can understand that don't sound like a scientific version of Genesis, i.e  "There was nothing. Then one day there was this big bang and there was something and it all expanded out from that ............ But it wasn't god that did it - it was definitely very scientific and I have the big words to prove it." lol

    I don't know about lack of imagination. I just have trouble accepting that the Universe conveniently fits in to our pre-conceived ideas and has limits. It starts and stops and has boundaries?

    1. Peter M. Lopez profile image90
      Peter M. Lopezposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Let's trade for a week.  It's been 100 degrees F all week.



      Sorry to ask a question and disappear for a week+, but I think physicists have recently (in the last few years) proven there was a beginning (it's the time right before that they can't quite work out).

      I'm curious, wouldn't any explanation sound like a scientific version of Genesis?  As far as convenience, it hardly seems to conveniently fit, ergo the endless debate.  You mentioned not being enamored w/the big bang theory b/c it doesn't fit your understanding of things...could you elaborate?  If you have elsewhere, please direct me there.  I hope you don't feel like I'm trying to pin you down, or anything, but this philosophy a la Mark is quite fascinating.



      Quite the opposite, my francophilic brother, I think the unknown is the perfect place for our imaginings.  If we knew all the answers, our highly evolved brains would simply deteriorate, no?

      1. Mark Knowles profile image62
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        That is what I would like some one to explain in words I can understand. lol

        Yes. If you start from a beginning. i.e there was nothing, then all of a sudden there was something - where was there for the nothing to be?

        Not sure they have "proved" it.

        OK

        Here's the nub of the matter;

        Why does there need to be a beginning? That implies an end. What was there before and what will there be after? Nothing? How can there be nothing? If there is nothing, it must be somewhere, which means there is something......

  15. RFox profile image83
    RFoxposted 8 years ago

    Great to see you back in the forums Jenny!
    We need your concise input big_smile

    1. Inspirepub profile image85
      Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      My, my, you will make me blush ...

      ... I was only busy for a few days, too. Nice to know I was missed in such a short time. I guess I shall have to figure out a way to log in regularly when I go around the world in July/August!

      Jenny

  16. Crash Jones profile image60
    Crash Jonesposted 8 years ago

    If you ignore a lot of the back and forth that came after the question (most importantly the qualification Eng wrote with it), the question itself is nice.

    People believe in God for a lot of reasons. A need to feel comfort with death, others' deaths, their own lives, the harsh world around them, and simple fear of all of the above and more. Of course there are other reasons. Some people believe they have experienced God, or something akin to God (aka - Buddhism, which I don't see as a religion so much as a system of beliefs meant for the betterment of the self and society). The list goes on.

    The reasons people don't believe in God are a lot like what is listed above, only reversed. Anger or frustration at not having answers to the great questions. Feeling no comfort with death, others' deaths, etc. They have had no spiritual experience beyond what they can or will attribute to natural phenomenon. Again, the list goes on.

    Personally, I side towards Mark's point (and I realize we are the minority amongst people), in that I do not believe in God, but neither do I disbelieve in God. I believe anything is possible, but there not being a God seems more probable. Weeping statues, the lame made to walk, Mary on a pancake and other alleged miracles are often cited as proof, but I have yet to see these "proofs" hold up to actual scientific scrutiny.

    I know that some occurrences are unexplained. Still, that doesn't mean they can not be explained.

    As to the logic debate ... my deceased professor (in the words of my grandmother, a great believer in folklore, wive's tales and a Southern Baptist God) is rollin' in his grave right now. He'd be glad to know Inspirepub is around to straighten things out.

  17. Mark Knowles profile image62
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    Where are you going?

  18. Inspirepub profile image85
    Inspirepubposted 8 years ago

    Stockholm, Washington, San Francisco. With transits in Bangkok and Frankfurt.

    I'll see Misha in Washington smile

    1. RFox profile image83
      RFoxposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I love San Francisco. I'll be in Portland in July. big_smile

      Stockholm's another place on my list that I haven't got to yet. Some day soon! smile

  19. Mark Knowles profile image62
    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago

    * disappointed look *

    I was hoping you would be in my neck of the woods big_smile

  20. Eng.M profile image75
    Eng.Mposted 8 years ago

    logic is very inconstant word and differs from one to another.

    I would confess that I can't persuade you logically if I knew your logic.

    1. Inspirepub profile image85
      Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Logic has a dictionary definition and is a very precise term.

      A is larger than B.
      B is larger than C.
      Therefore, A is larger than C.

      That is logical, because given the first two statements, the "Therefore" part is INESCAPABLY TRUE.

      As long as the premises (the starting statements) are actually accurately reflecting the real world, then the conclusion (the "therefore" part) will also accurately reflect the real world.

      You can have a logical argument which reaches an untrue conclusion.

      Jews are better than Muslims.
      Christians are better than Jews.
      Therefore, Christians are better than Muslims.

      This argument is LOGICALLY CORRECT, but it starts from flawed premises, so its conclusion is untrue.

      Logic is always an IF/THEN.

      You can have an argument which is logically incorrect, but reaches a true conclusion.

      My ceiling is above me.
      My ceiling is blue.
      The sky is above me.
      Therefore, the sky is blue.

      This argument is NOT LOGICALLY CORRECT, but the conclusion is factually true.

      Studies have shown that people find it much harder to spot a flaw in the logic of an argument if they happen to agree with the conclusion.

      So, to make a logical argument, you do this.

      STEP 1
      Premises - you just list them, You don't have to justify them, we all agree to accept them for the purpose of the discussion.

      STEP 2
      Apply the rules of logic - combine two or three premises, and draw an conclusion which is inescapable, given those premises.

      You have not yet done this.

      You have claimed that you CAN do this, every time you have said "it is logical that an accurate device must have been created by a mind".

      But you haven't actually said what your premises are and how logic leads you to that conclusion, despite Mark patiently asking you do to so at least seven times.

      Jenny

      P.S. In discussion, people may dispute the validity of your logic, or they may agree that it is logical and then go on to discuss whether your premises are an accurate reflection of reality.

      1. Eng.M profile image75
        Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        good logic example but there is an exception for everything as you say below.


        because it is an unmeasurable starting or largely changeable from people to people.


        right



        no logical relation but common ending.


        I agree


        I will say:
        you were made by chance, then you are an accurate system that was made by chance.
        if we are part of nature, then give me an example of a chance that produced an organized tool in our life.





        thanx for reminding me loooooooooooooooooool
        forget about designig and functioning in the nature for a second.
        what about beauty and feelings.by chance?
        then everything in the world is meaningless.



        go for it then.
        proove that chance can produce devices with functions directly without a mind intrusion.


        by the way,


        3.00 (accuracy to chance)


        good , 6.00 (accuracy to chance to accuracy)




        5.00 since GPS works and designed accurately(it tracks everywhere)



        5.5 (many mind assumptions) it doesn't affect chips designing)



        0.99 (magic to good life)

        but there is still no hall fame for these since you are alone.

        1. Crash Jones profile image60
          Crash Jonesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          You repeatedly use the term "accurate system." I'd like to post something here I found:

          "Accuracy is the degree of veracity ... Accuracy describes the closeness of arrows to [a] bullseye at the target center. Arrows that strike closer to the bullseye are considered more accurate. The closer a system's measurements to the accepted value, the more accurate the system is considered to be."

          I'm using the above to illustrate a nagging problem I have with your argument... that human beings are an accurate system. I disagree. We are highly inaccurate. To name a few "inaccurate systems" in humans - congenital defects and genetic diseases, disabilities and various problems that cause pain and/or suffering. And that's only the scientifically provable physical barriers people face. There are loads more.

          In essence, I'm saying we're far from accurate systems. We're accurate in many ways, but almost all of us are subject to the influences of physical and/or mental chaotic forces.

          1. mohitmisra profile image60
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Wow this was nice.

          2. Eng.M profile image75
            Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I was repeating that designing is required for accuracy.
            now,I wrote the sentence above because Mark and may be Jenny believe that we are accurate systems.



            we consider a PC processor accurate if it does the functions it was made for in the begining with no or few errors.
            our minds are more accurate than this.
            our minds for example control our movements with no or few mistakes in most cases.
            (for example: if you think in your mind that you want to raise your left hand, write it down and try to raise it.you will be able to raise it because your mind gave the right order)

            processors are still exposed to defections but we still call them accurate and the same is applied to brains.
            defections are more to do with perfections.



            we are accurate complicated systems and not Perfect.

            the expression related to your explainations could be efficiency.

            but usually for middle-aged people : do they all have diseases? what is the average?

            I tried before to proove that designing by a mind is required for all accurate systems but I wasn't fully successful.

            I still have a confusion between accuracy and perfection.
            good point you have here.

            thanx

  21. Eng.M profile image75
    Eng.Mposted 8 years ago

    I am 85cm
    Said is 69cm

    therefore , I am taller than Said.

    1. Eng.M profile image75
      Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I really learn a lot when I debate with you Mark because you let me think again about things I treat them like constants.
      this is the power of minds, not to deal anything like a constant.

      now tell me,
      why do you call yourself an atheist?

      I agree with you that it is not necessarily to reject evolution because we don't understand it.
      not understanding something doesn't mean it is wrong.

      SO, why do you disbelieve in God?
      (this is the main topic)
      a man as smart as you must be biased.neither a believer nor a disbeliever.
      unless, you discovered something very strong that made you a disbeliever.
      what is it?

  22. Eng.M profile image75
    Eng.Mposted 8 years ago

    believing is always about something you don't see or entirly know.

    even if no body showed you God existence, it is still a matter that needs to believe or disbeileve on.

    if someone prooved to you his existence but you still don't want to believe then you are not a disbeliever, you are ignoring reality.

    did you get my point?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image62
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Yes I do.

      Prove his existence and I will believe. big_smile I promise.

      The moving mountains is a good one. Or the walking on water. But we are going back over old ground. We already discussed this earlier smile

      http://pursenickety.com/wp-content/uploads/striphandler.gif

      1. Eng.M profile image75
        Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        no need to promise.

        I am just saying that believing and disbelieving in God are there even if I didn't prove his existence to you.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image62
          Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          lol

          No. Everyone will believe in god when you can prove it. Me included.

          1. Eng.M profile image75
            Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            looooooooooooooooool
            I know.

            but I meant that expressions 'Belief and Disbelife' are right and exist even if I couldn't proove God existence.

            there may be no God and I believe in something wrong.
            while you disbelieve it .

      2. Mark Knowles profile image62
        Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Still waiting on this one too smile

        1. Eng.M profile image75
          Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          waiting the bus of my prooves.
          it is not like that . you have to help yourself to understand what people want to say and after that it is your option to take it or leave it.

          you want a proof?
          you are the proof of his existence.
          study your body.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image62
            Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I have studied my body and the scientific evidence that supports the fact that I have evolved to this point.

            This is one of the many proofs that there is not a creator.

            Unless you already believe and are ready to twist the facts to suit your belief smile
            If i wait on the bus of your proves, I will be waiting a long time. I have already waited 500 years - as you measure them. big_smile

            Interesting that you cannot say that you have no proof. smile

            1. Eng.M profile image75
              Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              start a thread and giveus these prooves.


              what are facts? evolution ? chance? selection?imagination? escapaing?



              you aren't standing at the right station then.



              I cannot because the only proof you want is seeing God which is an arrogance in my opinion.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image62
                Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                You mean I need to already believe? I will take almost anything except what you are saying i.e

                "There is a flower, therefore this proves there is a god" lol

                Anything.

                In the bible, a true believer can move mountains, walk on water and bring the dead back to life.

                I will take any of those. Or all three - your choice smile

                1. Eng.M profile image75
                  Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  you are completely right.good for you.



                  I am not discussing here any holy book.
                  my beliefe didn't come from holy books.it came from science.
                  it came from knolewdge.from the state of not being ignorant.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image62
                    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    That seems to be the entire basis of your argument. We agree.




                    Science? What science is that? big_smile

                  2. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Fan-fuc***g-tastic!  I couldn't have worded it any better.  You kick a** Eng.M.


                    ps. you do too Mark.  smile

              2. Inspirepub profile image85
                Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Mark is not asking to see God.

                He has already seen "God", and it was not consistent with what Christians refer to as "God".

                Mark asserts that "God", as described the the Christians, does not exist.

                He is asking to see someone do any one of the things that human believers in the Christian God can reportedly do.

                This would be sufficient proof to Mark that he had been mistaken in his perception of God when he saw Him.

                A flower (or any other natural phenomenon) is not sufficient proof, because the "God" Mark saw was completely consistent with flowers (and all other natural phenomena).

                My question to you is - if you are, as you say, not arriving at your beliefs out of a book, but through personal experience and science, then why are you trying to argue for the existence of a particularly religious and apparently Christian story about "God"?

                Every other person I know, whether Christian or not, who has had a personal and direct spiritual experience, agrees about some very fundamental points that are not explicit in the Christian Bible, and also agrees that the Bible is wrong in some places. And scientists certainly do!

                It may be a language barrier, but you sound more like a book Christian than a spiritual Christian or a scientific thinker, which I suspect is why Mark is asking you to demonstrate the existence of some of the more far-fetched aspects of the Christian "God".

                I would hate to try to have this conversation in MY second language, so I salute you for attempting it, but if you have any ability at all in science or logic, you need to start using logical and scientific reasoning processes in your posts.

                Jenny

                1. Eng.M profile image75
                  Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  that's fair.
                  I got what he wants.



                  it could be for some people.



                  I didn't take the christian picture of God.
                  I just find it rational that nature systems were planned because simply I know they are very complex devices and can't formed by another way.
                  some people may think I am stuck with the idea of God and I can't change ,but believe me I spent two years watching and studying animals and their behaviour.
                  then I became sure that there must be a mind involoved somehow.



                  you are right.
                  the bible contradicts itself and modern science.
                  it was written by humans and there were no signs in it that it will be provided by holy spirits.
                  I read it and I think it is full of fantasies,rud and clear sexual exprssions.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image62
                    Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    You have made this very clear. Unfortunately, you are claiming that logic, rational thought and science are what has led you to this conclusion.

                    And have been unable to back this conclusion up with any of those smile

                    Which leads me to think you are stuck with the idea of god and can't change.

                    I think what Jenny was suggesting is that you try and use logic, or demonstrate a rational thought process other than, "I know they are very complex devices and can't formed by another way." This makes no sense to me at all. Or anyone else unless they already believe.

                    Or science even. That would work. Failing that, I will accept any of the aforementioned miracles smile

                    I don't know which version of god you believe in and to be honest, it makes no difference. I will take whichever proofs you have for your god. At the moment, the Spaghetti monster is winning purely on pasta-appeal smile

                  2. TheCapn profile image60
                    TheCapnposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    Try reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, everything in there seems to jive with what I've learned when studying biology and also seems to make sense in terms of how these complex devices could evolve. I think that often times people rely on a religious explanation for the origin of man because they have a lack of understanding of how the natural world works and a the slightest bit of study might actually give them enough enlightenment to change their minds.

  23. Eng.M profile image75
    Eng.Mposted 8 years ago

    tomorrow:
    I will try to proove that something like your brain must have a designer and can't be existed by chance.

    so could nominate another thread for this.
    (must every accurate device have a designer)

    I will try to stick to this topic.

    good day

    1. Mark Knowles profile image62
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Look forward to it. I am sure it will be good. Good day to you also smile

    2. Eng.M profile image75
      Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      hi

      I found it very difficult to start from here since I believe it is a logical that accuracy is simply can not be occuring without designing.
      loooooooooool , sorry Mark

      it is not from my faith in God but from my scientific knowledge.

      something working well should have had some mind that directed and organised it to work well.

      I think: organisation=mind

      I admit it that until now I couldn't proove that chance can't organise anything.


      there could be another logical explainations also besides God in our vision that we don't know

      but,evolution as we know is not one of them because it is entirely illogical and unscienific.

      it is just saying there should have something gradually happened but we don't know how or why.
      we just can put assumptions and they are not suppoted by anyway.

      lastly,

  24. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    I believe in God because I seen it.  I believe Mohit called it a Shamanic apporition, either way,  I believe because I can't ignore what I have seen with my eyes.  God is like a great magician, can and wills things, it's lifes mystery, but one that opens your eyes to something undoubtably beautiful, in which case when you know, then only things that stand in your way are compassion and self sacrifice and a hole lot of praying.  tongue

    1. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I believe because I can't ignore what I have seen with my eyes.
      Bold and beautiful.
      LOL Mohit

    2. Eng.M profile image75
      Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      hi Sandra,

      like always. your faith is very powerful.



      when you say that you have seen it, did you mean his effects?
      or, you felt his blessings?
      or, something else but not an actual seen?



      you mean you believed because of beauty in the world.

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I have seen an Eagle so large it encompassed stars in it's wings.  Something that could only come from God.  Or as it is easier to say, I have seen God, a sign, a creation just for me.  Then it disapeared into the Heavens. 
        I felt it's effects, trembling, fear, awe or for the first time, I woke up.  I was alive in reality for a few minutes.  Not dead in the world. 

        I mean, I believe because I know there is God.  Upon seeing God,  I say that this world right now that we live in, is just a dream.  I woke up and realized, yes I may be just a grain of sand, but death doesn't sit over my head and I will continue to walk this life and the next with God.  smile

        When you do away with doubt, the world you thougth you knew changes and you can work miracles on your own will and God wills them for you, makes them happen.  You can hear better, you can understand more, you know before hand what will happen, you become a will of God. 
        smile

        1. mohitmisra profile image60
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Beautiful,what a lovely answer.After you come across god,everything changes.You are able to comprehend the magic in you and this universe much better than ever before.You start to communicate with the universe and are continuously astounded and in awe of it.What was impossible before becomes possible for you.

        2. Eng.M profile image75
          Eng.Mposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          thanx

  25. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    I believe that mans laws make life miserable.  Instead of being free to live the life given with the laws set by God through Moses, the dynamics of freedom changed, in which case most live by the laws governed by man not God. 

    man says murder; God says thou shall not
    man say there is no God, God says I am God. 
    man says I am my own man I need nothing from my mother and father; God says honor them.
    man steals what is not thiers; God says don't take it if it is not yours.  Ask and recieve.
    man tells many lies; God says tell only the truth. 
    man wants what other man has; God says, get your own. 

    man says God shows no mercy; God says if you need mercy it is granted because we are vulnerable creatures, incapable of perfection, and in our imperfections God created what is absolutly fragile. 

    While we think of bats or ants being inferior to us, we are far more inferior to them.  As Jesus said: a tree is more obedient than man, a bird is more obedient than man.  The wind blows and the trees moves. 

    People, us, we don't move like a tree, we don't fly like birds, and we crumble when shaken.  Instead we wonder around blind, confussed and ultimatly at the mercy of all things Above and Below.  Man can talk about all the knowledge and enlightenment and arrogance a man needs to, to make themselves feel alive, but nothing compares to being humbled by the Grace of God in which case it is very easy to put on your heart of hearts then everything is forgivable.  This is Gods blessing.

    1. Misha profile image77
      Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Sandy, I got a strong urge to bow to you, My Goddess smile

      Seriously, look at yourself several months ago and compare to today - you grew remarkably fast from a lost girl into a wise woman smile

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Misha, you help me too you know.  tongue

  26. Inspirepub profile image85
    Inspirepubposted 8 years ago

    Congratulations, you made the Hall of Fame for that one.

    5.0

    Jenny

  27. Peter M. Lopez profile image90
    Peter M. Lopezposted 8 years ago

    Okay, I understand.  Yes, even if there's nothing, that nothing is something and it is somewhere.  I agree.  I guess I understood it to be our known universe.  The beginning being the beginning of what we see, feel, hear, touch, live in, etc.  There could have been countless beginnings to countless universes, I suppose. 

    But, even then, mustn't there have been an origination of it all somewhere, sometime?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image62
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Why? We are only now beginning to understand the meaning of time.

      And even you, yourself have "interpreted" time smile

  28. Thom Carnes profile image61
    Thom Carnesposted 8 years ago

    Some people think this is the most fundamental theological/ philosophical question of all: Why is there something rather than nothing?

    It's an interesting acamemic riddle, but surely it is fundamentally meaningless because any answer prompts its own rejoinder - ie if the answer is "God" then it prompts the question "Why is there God rather than nothing?" ....and so on ...and so on..... into a series of infinite regresses.

    The eminent but somewhat controversial physicist Victor Stenger answered the question with: "Because nothing is unstable."

    I leave the amateur scientists among us to work out what that means!

    The religious argument is often presented as a syllogism:

    1. Whatever begins to exist has to have a cause.
    2. The universe began to exist.
    3. Therefore, the universe has to have a cause.

    The first premise is taken as self-evident. But is it? Isn't it simply an *assumption* based on our personal convictions or (perhaps) the poverty of our communal imagination?

    To say that the universe is infinitely old doesn't mean that it began an infinitely long time ago -
    it means that it had no beginning at all.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image62
      Mark Knowlesposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      That is what I "believe" lol

 
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