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Choice In Evolution

  1. TruthDebater profile image60
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    Is there choice in evolution?

    Instinct for example, how does instinct change without choice?
    If an animals food source runs out, how does it choose a new food source it has never eaten before? If said the new food source was only determined by the environment, why do some animals choose new eating habits while some go extinct? If no choice, shouldn't all go extinct that must change eating habits to survive?

    1. Mark Knowles profile image60
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes and no.

      It doesn't. Why would it do that all of a sudden? Desperation. Why do you assume it would do that? How do you know that is the case? Who says this is true? Perhaps they did and would in your limited scenario.

      Didn't you ask this one before Marine? wink And surely this belongs in the science forum - not the ridiculous beliefs forum?

      1. TruthDebater profile image60
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks again for your defense Cags. Sorry my ridiculous, garbage, ignorant beliefs aren't up to your standards. Amazing how you assume choice in evolution is ridiculous when you have nothing credible to back up your claims. The only solution I see to an animal only programmed by instinct to eat one thing must choose to eat another or become extinct when food runs out. Does this seem like garbage to you? What part of the scenario would you like to expand on?

        1. Mark Knowles profile image60
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Odd. I never said anything about that - I answered all your questions or asked for clarification where necessary. I clearly stated that there is choice in evolution.

          Not a big fan of reading are you? Sorry - I forgot. lol

          1. TruthDebater profile image60
            TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks. You didn't answer what part of the scenario you would like to expand on, neither did you explain your "yes and no" answer. You also didn't explain why the scenario was so limited. What is desperation in your usage and what generates it?

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Yes I did. Please read what I wrote. An explanation of the "yes and no " answer would take too long for a forum post. And in any case - you just asked a "yes or no" question - not for an explanation - I suggest buying a few books and learning some what. That may be a better way of learning about the evolutionary process instead of startling numerous fights that gets a user banned permanently. wink

              Please answer my questions - this will clarify your questions and make them more meaningful - constantly bombarding people with assumptive questions that you then argue against is not terribly productive.

              Thanks.

              1. TruthDebater profile image60
                TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Thanks. I do not understand why you consistently lecture people to read and learn, yet you rarely have productive comments that aren't written for controversy. Then you claim me for being the one trying to start the controversy. I figure as much as you claim to have read on evolution, you would have more knowledge to offer. How about asking one specific question at a time so it's not just a circular argument for you to start. I didn't know I was assuming anything, I am asking how an animal changes instinct without choice.

                Please state where Darwin gives credit to choice in evolution in "origin of species". If he doesn't, why not when you yourself agree that there is choice in evolution?

                1. Mark Knowles profile image60
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  But - I have answered your questions in detail Marine - only to have you then ignore them or argue against them because you do not understand.

                  You are not asking questions in order to learn - you are asking questions in order to argue against what is said, but I will gove you the benefit of the doubt - again:

                  What instinct is the animal changing? Why would it need to change this instinct? Who says there is or is not a choice involved? Surely - in your scenario - it either changes or dies - so where is the choice involved? Is that a choice? To die from starvation?

                  There are certainly some species that have died out - for various reasons - but the underlying reason is that they could not adapt fast enough to survive. Not that they did not "choose" to change an instinct. I think "choice" is a poor choice of words. No animal chooses to adapt - it either adapts or dies. If I only had one source of food and it vanished - I would have to find another source or die. Am I "choosing" another food source? No - I am surviving - which is what everything tries to do. Which is why the answer is "yes and no". I am "choosing" to survive, but I am not "choosing" to change an instinct -  I have no choice if I am to survive.

                  I am not lecturing you - I am making a suggestion as to how to educate yourself on a subject you seem to have a very strong interest in, but no apparent willingness to learn. Reading books is a wonderful way of educating your self - I do it all the time.

                  1. TruthDebater profile image60
                    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Thanks Cags, please use my proper name, I think it is rude and lacking manners to repeatedly call me a different name.
                    How do you know what is in my mind and what I am trying to learn or not? Or is this just an assumption? Maybe others would retain more of what you write if there wasn't so much ridicule or disrespect behind many of your comments.
                    If a fish dependent on another fish which goes extinct, how does the fish change eating habits without choosing? If instinct is the programming from the parents, the program would need to be changed when old instinct becomes no good to extinct food, no? How is this programming changed without thought and choice? It could very well be a choice to die from starvation if the animal or fish doesn't choose new behavior or instinct.
                    How does anything adapt without choosing new habits and instinct? If some have faster learning habits than others, does this not give evidence of the power of choice in survival? I see where we disagree that there is limited choice to survive, but still choice, no?
                    Thanks for this response, I liked it much better.

        2. Pcunix profile image88
          Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Your mistake is thinking that animals only have instinct to go by.

          That's a common religious view, by the way.  Yet another example of how religion interferes with thinking.

          1. TruthDebater profile image60
            TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks. What are you talking about? Maybe it is your bias that makes you assume I am religious which is religious in itself. I think it is thought and choice along with instinct, along with the environment and how the life responds to the environment.

    2. Randy Godwin profile image93
      Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I recently saw a television documentary which featured iguanas which had learned to swim in the ocean and catch fish!  Necessity creates choices in some cases, but it doesn't always work out.  Survival is a tough teacher!

      1. TruthDebater profile image60
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Randy. Do you think necessity and choice has an equal role or necessity has more power? Can necessity have effect without the animal choosing to change habit or instinct?

        1. Randy Godwin profile image93
          Randy Godwinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          My own view is, necessity trumps choice!  Ever hear how stranded shipwreck survivors try to drink their own urine while floating in the ocean?  Definitely not a choice!

          1. TruthDebater profile image60
            TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks Randy, lol hard to argue analogy there. So necessity determined their limitation on what to drink to stay alive, but without choosing to drink the urine, possibly the survivors would die before a possible rescue?

          2. Greek One profile image79
            Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I agree

            Just like when it is last call and all the attractive girls are taken, sometimes you have to spend the night with someone who might not necessarily be attractive.

            Come to think of it, that might be an interesting theory to explore re: the origin of new species.. unnatural selection caused by the lack of preferable mates and the influence of alcohol

            1. Mark Knowles profile image60
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Reminds me of one of my favorite T shirts from a bar in West Virginia.

              It was (or is) called "CM Ducks" and their tag line was "Go Ugly Early and Avoid The Rush."  lol

              1. Greek One profile image79
                Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                science can an ugly mistress at times sad

            2. TruthDebater profile image60
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks Greek, lmao. I agree this is why I think many of us have chosen to drink more in a bar with less females to select from.

    3. profile image0
      cosetteposted 6 years ago in reply to this



      i think animals are driven by survival instincts *and* by conscious choice, as they are capable of learned behaviors, which are stored in their memory, in addition to instinctual behaviors. for example, animals instinctively know that they need water to survive, so they will gravitate towards places with water like lakes and watering holes. in severe droughts, they might choose to travel great distances to get water and if they can't find any, choose to begin eating plants that contain water because any water is better than no water. some make it because they find water or extract enough from the plants to survive the drought, and those who are unlucky don't find water at all anywhere and perish. i think animals' far greater senses of smell allow them to detect water in plants and in doing that, they have modified their instinctual habits in order to survive. younger animals remember this and adopt the new behavior. well, that is what i was thinking about anyway when i read your question, which was interesting and thought-provoking, so thanks! smile

      1. TruthDebater profile image60
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Cosette. I agree with you, I enjoyed reading your response. Also thank you for having manners, they seem to be rare now a days.

    4. hanging out profile image60
      hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Evolution is very much flawed, it is the ultimate ridiculous belief. God is through all, in all, in control of all, possessor of all, indeed, the laminin that glues all things together.
      He cares for each living creature, course he gave them great smell and awesome eyesight, tough furs etc, each one to its living condition. But man he gave a difference, a brain, perhaps this was the foolishness of god to do such a thing but He will get what He wants and the rest, including the animals will perish.

      1. TruthDebater profile image60
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks. Who is to say your belief isn't flawed? If flawed and ridiculous as you claim, please provide your reasoning for why you think so. I could counter and say your God didn't care about the ones that went extinct. If given to them by your God, why didn't he give them ability to survive along with all of the other helpful parts? Man is not the only one with brains, many animals have them, just not likely the same awareness.

      2. Beelzedad profile image60
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Usually, when one makes a claim theories that have mountains of evidence to support them are flawed, they should at the very least offer up something to point out the flaws. Anything? smile

  2. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    Instinct is the bootstrap program of all living things?
    Creatures do not necessarily have the ability of choice.
    A tree or plant cannot choose to move it's location.

    Other creatures have limited choice ability to move, to eat, to procreate. But still it is their instinct + that drives them. Are animals conscious of what they are doing and why? I think not. They are programmed to do certain things at certain intervals. Certainly if the mighty reptiles were aware that the sea levels were rising and cause a flood upon the land, destroying their food supply, they would have moved to higher ground or adapted to the water environment, or better, adjusted their food source instantly.

    Now, if this is choice regarding evolution itself. Evolution would have a bootstrap program also, in addition to the other elements of consciousness AND exceed consciousness to the point of totality, perfection. If evolution is learning as it goes, it is destined to make itself extinct, since it is subject to itself and limited by itself and its consciousness. In other words, it can only go so far, expand it reach so far, until it snaps or collapses on itself.

    ~James

    1. TruthDebater profile image60
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks Twenty. I think they can choose to grow towards water to some extent. The cells have memory/instinct of water, so I think they can choose ways to gain more water. What do you mean you don't think animals are conscious of what they are doing? They get mentally stimulated, then physically proceed to the stimulus. How is this without consciouness when mental thoughts must occur before action? As for the reptiles, I agree with you, not all animals are or can be aware of as much as others. I still don't think I understand why you believe it will collapse, thank you.

  3. Jeff Berndt profile image92
    Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago

    On the original post, I recommend reading "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. There's a neat discussion in it about rats, how they can eat pretty much anything, and how that makes them ore successful as a species than, say, sheep, which can eat pretty much only grass and survive under the protection of humanity. On the other hand, the life of an individual rat is a lot more dangerous, because if you can eat nearly anything, how do you decide /what/ to eat, and how do you keep track of what you shouldn't eat, especially if you're a rat, who can't write stuff down.

    1. TruthDebater profile image60
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks Jeff, I will check it out.
      Maybe you can help me out with this question. All of our physical processes come only after the mental process / thought. At what level of life do you think this changes to where mental isn't needed for/before physical action?

      I would be interested to know the comparisons between rat reproduction and sheep reproduction. It seems the rats eating anything pays off in the end considering they haven't wiped themselves out, but increased "I think". I guess the reproduction and not being selective outnumbers all of the poison they eat?

      1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
        Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        The short answer is, "I dunno."

        The longer, more considered answer is a question: why is the premise that all of our physical processes come only after the mental process/thought accepted as a given?

        What are we putting under the heading "physical processes?" Only voluntary actions? Or all physical processes including digestion, respiration, circulation, etc., none of which require conscious thought?

        Rats reproduce a *lot* more quickly then sheep: shorter gestation period, more offspring at once, more frequent "heat." I don't know if any data exists on the rat population over the years and whether it's overall increased, decreased, or stayed about the same, but I do know that there didn't used to be rats in North America, and now they're everywhere people live (with the possible exception of the Antarctic research stations and the International Space Station [though I'm pretty sure rats have been in space at some point as experimental subjects]).

        For a fun (and yet educational) overview of rat life, watch the "Your Friend the Rat" feature on Pixar's Ratatouille DVD. It's funny, and yet there's facts in it (which is one of my favorite ways to learn).

        1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
          Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hey, I found Your Friend the Rat on Veoh:
          http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/categ … 066wWBPhW7

          There's a bit of an ad at the beginning, though.

        2. TruthDebater profile image60
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks Jeff. The video was interesting. We should be grateful to them. lol
          Could you explain how you think mental and physical happen if physical does come before mental? I'm not saying it can't or doesn't, just didn't think of it because before action comes thought or subconscious thought. Do the synapses create the thoughts or do the thoughts create the synapses?
          I have no idea how it is possible for thoughts to create the synapse or the cells react to create synapse. It seems if everything was determined by the physical without mental choice, we would do whatever the physical determines us to do. It seems we have mental choice to decide which physical synapse to choose.
          I don't know if I made sense, i'm obviously not a neuroscientist.
          I think our digestion and other functions do require subconscious memory of some type. Even if it was a computer program, it would still require memory.

 
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