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Christian centre to 'combat evil Ground Zero mosque proposal'

  1. aguasilver profile image87
    aguasilverposted 6 years ago

    An outspoken preacher with a history of anti-Islamic rhetoric has launched a Christian centre next to the former World Trade Center - as a direct response to plans for a mosque nearby.
    In a statement that brands Islam as a religion of 'violence and hatred', televangelist Bill Keller has launch his so-called '9/11 Christian Centre' in a hotel conference room directly opposite the Ground Zero site.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne … z0yYYYv8Sg

    What do you think, is he right or wrong?

    1. pisean282311 profile image58
      pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      this is tricky ...would it be good for america considering what it stands for?...i am not supporter of mosque on ground zero..not because i think islam is what this preachers claims to be..just because i empathize with families of 9/11 victims..as right..well muslims have right to build mosque anywhere in usa and as far as they aren't doing anything illegal..how can one stop them?..in same way this preacher can build what ever he wishes to ..but paradigm of building center to counter evil...well who defines what is evil in plural society?..building a worship place is evil?..if yes it should apply to  all worship places ,if no ..who can be judge for other's belief?

    2. Joe Badtoe profile image61
      Joe Badtoeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Well as it's from the right wing Daily Mail it will be the usual inflammatory bullshit. Secondly if this televangelist (a fact that makes him the direct opposite of a true christian) gets his way then hopefully Sikhs, Hindu's and Buddhists will also open up a centre and they will prove that religious folk who are not chrisitians don't fill their lives with hatred that dumbfucks lke Keller does.

      Now that would be cool

    3. Jeff Berndt profile image92
      Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "What do you think, is he right or wrong?"
      You mean in general, or for building his anti-mosque? smile

      He can found whatever kind of church he wants to. A coven of witches would (or ought to be) allowed to start a weekly spell casting ritual in a building near ground zero if they wanted. Free exercise and all that.

      I think the guy is a slimeball, but that doesn't mean he hasn't got the same freedoms everyone else has.

    4. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I say if it prevents the building of an Islamic,Muslim  anything, Go for it. If Islam is a religious state that condones the tragic violence that happened at this site, don't permit them to build anything within ten square miles of "Ground Zero".

      1. pisean282311 profile image58
        pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        they already have permission and they are going ahead with building that islamic center which they call...

      2. profile image66
        paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        How have you arrived the figure ten miles; is it prescribed in the Law ?

    5. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      He is definitely within his rights, and...although I don't know a lot about his ministry, I'm inclined to think he's right in doing this. 


      I'm a regular receiver of e-mails of Keller's newsletters, but have to say I don't keep up with them because I get so many similar e-mails from religious sites, etc..
      Guess I better go open more of them and try to make a personal assessment.

      For now I'll just say YAY that somebody's taking a direct stance against Islam. 
      Sometimes ya gotta fight fire with fire.
      And I hope it's with Holy Ghost fire! ha

    6. d.william profile image85
      d.williamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The varied responses are amazing.  Frankly i do not understand what all the controversy is about.  1. our constitution guarantees freedom of religion in this country.  2.  The tragedy of 9/11 had nothing to do with the islamic religion per se.  3.  The terrorists that did this dastardly act were no more radical than that idiot in Florida that plans on burning the Koran this month.  3.  If these folks put as much effort in promoting love, understanding and tolerance instead of judging  others and promoting hatred and bigotry in this country the world would be a much better place to live in. 
      Judge not, lest ye be judged.  If everyone turns away from defending equality and justice for everyone, who will be left to help you when it is your turn?

    7. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think they are making things worse.  To me it is completely hypocritical as an American and as a Christian to preach love, tolerance... and then basically condemn people who haven't done anything.

      I am pretty sure that the Bible asked you not to bear false witness and I am pretty sure that those people didn't do anything wrong just by being Muslim.

      To say "they are a religion of hate and violence" when they haven't done anything hateful or violent just because of a book doesn't make Christianity any different.

      I see a lot of hate and violence coming from Christians these days but somehow you think it is okay?  It's not okay.  A couple weeks ago a Christian man beat up a Muslim just because he was muslim.

      Another Christian tried to blow up a Mosque.  Another Mosque was burnt down and left a ghetto sign that read something like "Islam no more". 

      Or how about the black dude who was at the protest where a Christian mans walks up to him to pick a fight. The man says, "I don't want any trouble."  Of course that doesn't stop the Christian man from getting in his face and calling him a liar.  As it turns out, the man wasn't even Muslim.  Did you hear an apology for that?  Nope!

      They changed the name from "Cordoba" too just to please you guys.  But that doesn't seem good enough.  You don't recognize the other Muslims who also died on that day in that building or recognize their families.

    8. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think that people are confusing religious em battlement
      with Patriotic outrage.
         What if the United states bought property in Iraq and put up a statue of president Bush where Saddam's' once stood.
          I can't imagine a Japanese Temple being built at Pearl Harbor.  Even after all thee years.

         Sometimes we get caught up in all of the rhetoric and miss the obvious.

      1. Ron Montgomery profile image60
        Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Or perhaps your "obvious" is not everyone's.  Perpetuating the myth that America was attacked by Islam is dangerous to everyone, especially the U.S.

        1. Jerami profile image79
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I wasn't necesarily voicing my views but recognizing where some people that I know are coming from.

    9. Onusonus profile image85
      Onusonusposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This situation is comprable to the laws which were passed in several states banning military funeral protests. By law they have the right to assemble or protest wherever they want. However the unwritten laws of common decency would dictate that they should let families grieve their lost ones in peace.

      Whose rights are in violation? Those who wish to manipulate their rights to freedom of speech, or those who wish to manipulate their rights to religious expression.

      I think they should rebuild the towers and forget about what the churches and mosques in that area are doing.

    10. mythbuster profile image84
      mythbusterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe if two very different places of worship are near to each other in this very renowned location, two sets of fellowships can view each other and learn that they need not be at odds concerning the other's spiritual worship practices.

    11. BDazzler profile image84
      BDazzlerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I don't believe he's doing this for God. I do not think he's doing this for Jesus. It is my conviction that he's not doing this for the Gospel.  It seems to me that he's doing it because it's a hot topic and he knows it will sell. It is his right to do so in America.  But just because it is his right, that doesn't make it right.

      Romans 12:18: "If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men."

      He says the Christian center will serve to 'combat this new evil being constructed near Ground Zero'

      Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne … z0ycMxvWD8

      He's doing it specifically in reaction to the mosque.  That's not being salt and light.  It's simply being provocative for the sake of being provocative.  That is not choosing to live at peace.

      The muslims and the christians each have the right to worship and build centers of worship.  I believe both sides are doing it specifically to inflame the passions of their more radical supporters.

    12. dutchman1951 profile image60
      dutchman1951posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think the Preacher is wrong, and we should as americans seize this moment and oust both the Mosque and His Religious Hatred Center.

      Problem is we have no rules no, everything is right, anything for the moment seems ok. So it will be allowed to Fester creating more hatred. There will be sevier trouble yet, you can see it building. No good.

      1. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Why do you call Keller's church "hatred", but not the mosque's?

        1. dutchman1951 profile image60
          dutchman1951posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Brenda, you are spliting Hairs here, to me they both are hatred, thats why I say sieze them "Both"  They preach the same anarchy. Either way, It is a doctrine of emptyness to me.

          Neither one. The Mosque or Keller , necessary in a Civil world.

          If either side was of God, then why allow the direct result of your actions to reduce things to emotional anger. Its sense-less to me. Islam's book says if you dont believe like a Muslim believes, then you are to be removed (possibly killed- depending on whos interpreting it at the time), Keller preaches same in a different direction. Both are worthless, and contrary to world survival. They both need to go.

  2. anonimuzz profile image83
    anonimuzzposted 6 years ago

    Way to show the famous Christian tolerance towards other people.

    1. pisean282311 profile image58
      pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      lol

  3. Beelzedad profile image61
    Beelzedadposted 6 years ago

    Why can't they just build a university at ground zero, a place of learning rather than a place of worship. smile

    1. pisean282311 profile image58
      pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      then keep all holy books in that university...smile

      1. Beelzedad profile image61
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Great idea! smile

    2. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      If you permit them to build an Islamic university on the site, what are they going to teach?  Bomb Building 101? Crashing planes 101? Killing of innocent people 300? Praise God, kill all Christians 300. How to become a martyr for allah?
      Get real!

      1. pisean282311 profile image58
        pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        who is talking about islamic university..we are talking about general university and have all holy books in it...books are cause of what you say...'my way only way' is highly arrogant ideology ,unfortunately existing in many religions barring few..ironically those few are among oldest...

      2. Misha profile image74
        Mishaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        LOL No, crusade 101, witchhunt 202, and inquisition 303 lol

        1. luvpassion profile image61
          luvpassionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          A way to combat evil:

          Merry meet and merry part, bright the cheeks and warm the heart
          Mind ye threefold law ye should, three times bad and three times good. smile

          Witchhunt?

          1. profile image0
            Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Not a witchhunt.
            Just people who remember that America is a Christian Nation, not a Muslim one, no matter if our President has the audacity to try to change that fact.

            1. pisean282311 profile image58
              pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              now when did usa become christian nation?

              1. Ron Montgomery profile image60
                Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Right after Brenda became emperor. lol

                1. profile image0
                  Kathryn LJposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Ha ha, glad it's not just me who has thoughts like this!

            2. Jeff Berndt profile image92
              Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              "... America is a [neither] Christian Nation, no[r] a Muslim one, "

              There, fixed it for you. I should start charging people for remedial courses in civics and history....

          2. Misha profile image74
            Mishaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            LOL Did I misspell it? smile

        2. mythbuster profile image84
          mythbusterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          *thumbsup* I get a kick out of this.

    3. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      FINALLY! A valuable idea and one that should be looked into, seriously. The World Trade Central University -studying global culture.

  4. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    I think this guy must follow the mantra "be the change you want to see..."

    He wants conflict and antagonism with Muslims, and it seems that he is willing to do what it takes to breed such tension and ridiculous animosity...

    To build your church with the specific intent to go after a mosque says a lot....

    Silly "Christian Americans".....are they so blinded and deluded?

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      We are the "foolish" things of the world that confound the "wise".
      I can see you're confounded, since you haven't grasped the concept at all.

      1. Joe Badtoe profile image61
        Joe Badtoeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well Brenda given that you're a right wing nutjob is it any surprise lotsof folk disageree with your moronic bush induced view of this world?

        Why don't ya just open up that tiny mind of yours? or is that just too tough for you?

        1. profile image0
          Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Well, how RUDE of you!
          LOL
          I honestly don't care if you think I'm those things you said about me or not.

          It isn't always wise to open up one's mind to things.
          Matter of fact, it is wisdom to know which things to NOT open up one's mind to.

        2. Ron Montgomery profile image60
          Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You can strongly disagree with someone and still be polite.

          1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
            Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, seriously. No need to call names.

    2. Jim Hunter profile image59
      Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Where is all that new found right to religious freedom the libs were preaching last week?

      Oh I see, a Christian wants to do something so its an attack on others.

      Everyday the hypocrisy shines through.

  5. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Confounded Brenda?

    Hardly....

    That projection problem of yours seems to be ongoing....

    1. Dave Barnett profile image60
      Dave Barnettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The Mosque is a tool of the US to show the world we can be islamic friendly. I don't think the present level of controversy was anticipated, but, the fable of religious freedom here has been exaggerated. The ghost dance of the native american religion was forbidden by executive order in the late 1880's and the native religion itself has barely survived the assimilation of the native people's into the white world. These things are still discouraged among the american society.

      1. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        ...I'm not sure the native Americans WANTED or WANT their ways to be "assimilated"....

        The treaty that formed the Indian Reservations, etc.,  was....both willing separation and reparation, was it not?

        1. Ron Montgomery profile image60
          Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          No, it was neither.  Offering a deal to someone under "agree or die" conditions does not equate to willing acceptance.

          1. Dave Barnett profile image60
            Dave Barnettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            signing under duress. My wife is one of Oegon's "Lost Children". The forced assimilation hasn't yet been totally played out. The repercussions reverberate for generations. All aboriginal people's have had the white world crammed down their throats, and their cultures cast to the winds. It has led to much sufferring and inhumanity, on all sides. Loss of one's culture to be replaced by decadent "christian" values. Sorry, I'm venting.

          2. profile image0
            Kathryn LJposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Perhaps what you need here is a large breathing space, about 50 years should do it, to decide what kind of memorial you want.  Something this big needs a great deal of thought, with the families and their multi-faceted views, taken into account.  This isn't about religion is it?  Surely, this is about something so momentous, so horrendous that only history ~(and a great deal of hindsight,) will decide what should happen next. How sad that in the face of such suffering, we argue about how to commemorate it.

        2. Jeff Berndt profile image92
          Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Ask an Indian sometime.

          1. profile image0
            Kathryn LJposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            OK, tell me.

            1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
              Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I'm not an Indian. smile

              1. profile image0
                Kathryn LJposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                OK, well elaborate on asking an Indian.  Are we talking native American and the mass genocide that took place during the colonisation of the America's or Oriental Indian's and the mass genocide that took place during the colonisation of India?

                1. Dave Barnett profile image60
                  Dave Barnettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Good one. But I didn't intend to highjack the forum. If I did, I apologize. Australia, New Zealand, The Phillipines, most of Africa. And when the active colonialization stopped, interference in internal affairs continues on. Now we come to reasons why terrorists walk the paths they do. There I go again....

                  1. profile image0
                    Kathryn LJposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    And your right Dave.  Globally, these things have gone on since before the Roman conquests of Europe and beyond.  But the relatives of those lost in the world trade centre will not want to consider this.  Their profound loss will continue to be just that, until the living memory is lost with their own demise.  History will decide how it will all be remembered, but for now, couldn't we just let them have their grief?

                2. Jeff Berndt profile image92
                  Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Hi, Kathryn,

                  The comment I was responding to was this:
                  "The treaty that formed the Indian Reservations, etc.,  was....both willing separation and reparation, was it not?"

                  My answer was kinda glib, but what I was trying to get across was rather big, and hard to encompass in a forum post. I'll try to break it down.

                  First, there's this: "The treaty..."

                  The treaty? It's not like the Indians were all a single political unit under one government. There were scads of them, all over the continent, with different languages, different customs, different ways of life. There were as many treaties between Indian groups and the US government as there were Indian groups willing to (or forced to) deal with the US Government.

                  Second, there's this: "both willing separation and reparation, was it not?"
                  In a word, no. Ask a Cherokee if his tribe was "willing" to walk from Georgia to Oklahoma for no reason other than white people wanted to live in their Georgia homeland. Ask a Lakota how his tribe felt after a white guy discovered gold in the Black Hills and the US removed the Lakota from the area (in violation, I might add, of an earlier treaty). There are many more examples than I can list here.

                  The US has historically behaved abysmally toward the native peoples of North America. We're starting to do better, but we still have a long way to go.

                  1. Jerami profile image79
                    Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I have to agree Jeff.  Although some of these treaties were worked out with all of the best intentions by honest treaty makers; there were too many white men that had no intentions of letting there be peace.

                       The same situation exists today concerning the trouble in the middle east AND this Ground zero debate.

                       There will never be peace until EVERYONE wants it.

  6. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    Brenda Durham wrote:
    ...I'm not sure the native Americans WANTED or WANT their ways to be "assimilated"....

    The treaty that formed the Indian Reservations, etc.,  was....both willing separation and reparation, was it not? 
    ================================================

       NOT    I think that it was a "sign this treaty or die".

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You mean like the Indians said get off our land or die?

      1. Jerami profile image79
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        No    the invaders (New Americans)  said live within this circle that we have drawn in the sand  (reservation) and quit fighting us over this land  (surrender) or die.

        1. profile image0
          Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Invaders?

          Why not "immigrants", "refugees from tyranny" migrating to a VAST land where there was room to share?

          1. Jerami profile image79
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            There was plenty of room to share from our perspective,
               And the Indians were willing to do so until ,,, 

               They just kept coming and kept coming and kept coming until there wasn't enough room for all of us so we put "them" on reservations.

            1. profile image0
              Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              So....do you think that made it okay for them to KILL the "white people"?   And the only reason they didn't succeed in eradicating the "invaders" was because they were outnumbered?

              hmm......if we said that now about our current border situation in the USA, we'd be called haters for sure, and be charged with inciting murder.....

              1. Jerami profile image79
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I'm not kicking America, I love it.
                 
                  But I can picture myself. an indian standing on plymouth Rock watching a couple of ships landing,  Thinking  " welcom the strangers"   But if I had seen 10,000 ships all at once, the war woulda been on right then.

                   The Indian way of life was doomed.  Progress marches on and doesn't stop for anyone.  Europeans were coming one way or another.

                   Tis the way of the world.
                  We can't point our finger and say Shame, Shame.   
                  Well, We can but if anyone is looking ,, they are also being pointed at them.

                1. profile image0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Again,
                  there was enough room for EVERYONE.
                  Think about it.
                  Why were the Indians so intolerant of immigrants who were different from them?

                  Did it perhaps threaten their livelihood?   Deplete the number of buffalo and other wildlife?   Threaten their religion, their belief in the "Great Spirit" (which is supposedly "God" but which really isn't the same thing as Christianity)?

                  Just asking what you think.

                  1. Jerami profile image79
                    Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I'm not an American Indian history buff, but It is my understand that as they were being pushed out of their homes along the coast lines that they began pushing back.
                       The Indians  were pushed back to the Mississippi river.
                       President Jackson promised equality to the remainig Indians that were left east of the Mississippi for their support during war times and then after the war the Indians were sent on their trail of tears.

                       It seems that it was the immigrants that developed their intolerance for the Natives.

                      That is just my undrstanding.

        2. Dave Barnett profile image60
          Dave Barnettposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          APARTHIED. Did you know that in the days of the Roman Empire under the Caesars, the place we call Israel was known as Palestine? The Hebrew lands were referred to as Judea, in Palestine. Aparthied.

          1. Jerami profile image79
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            sorry bout the delay...   I kinda knew that.  Not all the details though.

  7. Jerami profile image79
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    As in any society there were good and bad. 
    And which that we recognize as good depends on which side we find our self standing on.
       Any great change will be seen from both prospectives.
    Usually not by the same person though.

        Back to the topic of the Mosque.
    I don't understand such a large area of such a high tax base is being designated for a church building. I thought that The building was exempt from proprty tax??  Maybe not?

       Any way, looks like a big change is coming from this development.

    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The developer is exempt, not the location, since it is to be a cultural center. From the reports the board of directors consists of multi-faith persons of the Big 3. But the real issue is that the building in use already as an Islamic worship center. It was what the public first heard and everyone ran with it. They are not building "A Mosque" in particular, but a cultural unit containing a mosque. The BOD is also considering a synagogue and chapel area.

      What I find scary is the Keller group using the Hilton hotel right across from Ground Zero as their encampment. Who died and made Christians the authority over that location?

      Little to they tell, they have plans or had plans to build a huge mega church near that location. Besides that, it really shows the undertone of hate America really has with a smile of welcome and a mouth full of worms. 10 people caused a lot of havoc using the phrase "allah ou akbar" and now millions are going to be punished on their behalf. Rome wasn't even that cruel. I am sorry, but racism especially among religion is worse than ever in this supposed place where anyone can come and live.  I have seen the place up close, lost friends as well and the location of the cultural center does not effect ground zero directly.

      1. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Again, for those outside NYC, the location of Cordoba House (cultural center) is Park Place, approximately 2 1/2 CITY blocks from the corner of Vesey Street (Hilton Hotel where Keller is camped out) -G-Zero entry point & Port Authority train terminal. You cannot even see G-Zero from the location. Walking distance is 10 minutes...

      2. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        10 people?

        And how many people did those 10 people hurt?

        Instead of diminishing the gravity of what happened, maybe you should start doing a body count of the people who've been hurt or killed by those who shouted "Allah Akbar" or whatever their terrorist cry is.   Like the Fort Hood guy who was allowed to be a counselor, no less!, while he himself was in dire need of either counseling or reprimand and deportation, 'cause if he wanted to be a Muslim he should've gone to a Muslim country to live.

        1. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          And this is YOUR perfect expression of christian racism, Brenda.
          Disgusting is not the word. If a handful of Christians did the same, you would protect them, just like England did in the crusades that wiped out millions -not thousands- millions of moors in the name of God and the legions of soldiers who destroyed and burned the land of India to China, South to Jerusalem in the name of God.

          Even still, the Islamic global community does not protect those who caused this mess nor sympathize with this faction group (for all we know is not a faction group at all, but a group fabricated to cause the further assimilation of the American Ideology, since it was America who funded and supplied this faction with knowledge, weapons, etc.). Why should they be punished? Same as why should you be punished for the deeds of your fellow believers?

          It's really sad, knowing I personally lost friends in WTC, that you or anyone else can stand there and blatantly justify YOU are better than those 10 people who stole three planes and killed themselves and thousands for no reason, with/without calling out allah ou akbar ( god is great ) in the process). If they had said Steve Jobs ou akbar, I bet apple would still build a store in downtown.

          Now this fellow Keller is screaming god is Great, comfy at the Hilton, overlooking the site and raking in the money. Who is the terrorist now? Unbelievable the level of racism in America! And especially under the covering of "holiness".

          It was such a man who invaded a country with no just cause who's war still continues today and was quoted on many occasions as the "process of global assimilation is in full swing" referring to the American right wing fundamental ideology...

          That, sister IS terrorism. No amount of planes can measure up to it. You live in and are Babylon! It was the Greatest City and place imaginable; full of wealth, golden streets, every kind of desire and luxury, church, temple, dungeon, you name it...

          1. profile image0
            Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Typical example of someone blaming all Christians for what some who claim to be Christian did, and all the while claiming to be speaking against what you perceive as intolerance of Muslims.  The twist you put on that is very ironic.
            Typical liberalism.
            Surprising coming from you, though, James, especially when you said I'm no better than the 911 terrorists.  Very surprising.
            I see the vengeance agenda of progressive liberalism has you in its clutches.

            1. profile image0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Apparently, you missed the gist of my post. It clearly points out how even you a 'god fearing, born again, bible toting believer, does not understand exactly what happened. Second, how easily you throw the liberal card, when it is fundamental Christianity that is moving liberalism to new heights. Take G. Bush Jr & Mrs. Palin, etc. America is the Great Harlet and the mid-western bible belt of Christianity is so rooted in hatred, racism and denial, it is ridiculous.

              Fundamental Liberalism under the disguise of peaceful holiness is worse than a few loonies flying planes into public areas. Billions of people effected, millions of dollars raked in, thousands of preachers feeding the masses while you chant faithfully, "God is great". Yes, I stand behind my statement: You are no better than the preacher terrorist or the militant terrorist, so long as you sit there and justify who and why. And just as equally pitiful are the atheists. So don't think you're alone or that I am picking on Christians only. But from this thread, that Christian preacher is more a terrorist. Anyone who agrees with him, or supports him -politically, socially, spiritually, economically or otherwise --under the umbrella of Christianity is equally a terrorist. That is liberalism at its finest.

              1. profile image0
                Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I had no idea you had so much vengeance in your heart.
                I am shocked.
                hmm....well, as I said before, I don't know Keller personally, but from the devotionals I've read so far, and from the info I've seen, I do indeed support his viewpoints.   Notice I said from the info I have so far.
                And from that, you have labeled me a terrorist!  Oh my.
                So....tell me, James, what is it that Keller has done that warrants you calling him a terrorist?  And myself as well?  I didn't fly planes and kill your friends.  Matter of fact, I've never flown in a plane in my entire life.  And I've never planted a bomb or killed anyone, nor threatened anything like that.  And I don't advocate that anyone do those things unless it's in sanctioned war.
                Neither am I Catholic nor did I have anything to do with the Crusades, nor anything that I know that you can hold against me.
                So please enlighten me as to why you're so against me personally.
                Do you just hate Bush because he actually put a plan in effect to DEFEND America against terrorism?
                Or is it just a generalized hatred for all Christians?

                1. profile image0
                  Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Keller has stated that his 'encampment' in the Hilton Hotel, directly across from the WTC Site is rightfully a "Christian terror-torium err territory". --By who's authority???

                  He has also stated it is an 'anti-mosque' campaign. Anti mosque = anti muslim. --That is racism and goes completely against all written biblical ideology and certainly spiritual.

                  Yet, you say you support his views.
                  He is putting fear, terror and anger in the hearts of people, under the guise of his perspective of truth. Thousands upon thousands of angry and hurt people, plus his followers of Christianity are flocking to him with money and more. You call that Christ like?
                  I call that evil. A worse evil than the men who committed that act in the first place. Why? Because this kind of evil parades as if it were pure light, pure truth itself. And they flock to it like flies to dung.

                  So long as people still continue to hate each other, no matter what principle they follow, no matter what reason, terrorism will always be.

                  So, there is it.

                  As for vengeance, Brenda, I do not hate Christians, Hebrews, Hare Krishnas, Muslims, Scientists or even Atheists. To me, all of it are lies and should all be done away with, once and for all. Am I aware that America is leading the world as the whore of Babylon, you betcha. Every corner of the planet is being infected, assimilated, etc by her. --from remote paradise islands to a village deep beneath the snow covered mountains of Tibet.

                  If you want to call that my perspective liberalism, vengeance, problem, go right ahead.

                  1. profile image0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I see nothing wrong with calling it a "Christian territory", especially since this IS a Christian Nation.

                    Like you, I don't hate anyone personally either, but I am "anti-mosque" and anti-Islam, if you want to call what Keller is doing as "anti-mosque".  He isn't threatening to blow the place up!  He's just using non-violent opposition to it, a RIGHT that he has as an American citizen.

                    As for the "whore of Babylon",  ummm....maybe America is becoming that,  but it certainly is NOT because of true Christian churches/groups; it's because of liberalism,  and those who follow liberalism, some even claiming to be Christians.

                2. Shadesbreath profile image90
                  Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this



                  No, you didn't fly a plane into anything and kill innocents yet.  But you said on the first page of this thread, and I quote:

                  For now I'll just say YAY that somebody's taking a direct stance against Islam. 
                  Sometimes ya gotta fight fire with fire.
                  And I hope it's with Holy Ghost fire! ha


                  So, you have a problem with "generalized hatred for all Christians," eh?  You make it sound like if someone lumps you in with the fantatics behind the Inquisition, the Crusades or Catholicism and their child-molesting problem that it's wrong, that lumping you and all Christianity is generalized hatred... it almost seems like you think GENERALIZED hatred is a bad thing. 

                  And yet you write "Yay, someone is taking a direct stance against Islam."  Like it's all of Islam that flew the planes in, and EVERY Muslim was sitting there as part of the cabal.

                  Do you have any idea how dangerous people like you are?  You can't even see your own raging hypocrisy because the light of your hateful selfrighteousness is burning so bright it blinds you.  I know why Twenty One Days called you a terrorist.  You have everything you need to be one except for the bomb and the courage to go kill innocents for your delusion.  My God but you are a scary person.

                  1. profile image0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Umm... Islam is by its very foundation anti-Christian.  So yes it's perfectly okay for me to say YAY someone's taking a stance against Islam in my Country.

                    And it looks more like a character flaw within yourself that would bring you to the conclusion you just drew.
                    If THAT wasn't so scary, it would be funny.

  8. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Brenda, the lesson learned from the native American/United States relationship was that even if someone or a group assimilated, they were not desired...and their lands were..

    I point to the Cherokee as the clearest example of this...

    They were considered "removable" if it even meant their physical lives...

    Cultural and physical genocide........

  9. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Brenda...

    You want to use the "Islam is opposed to Christianity" concept...

    So that means you must also see Christianity as opposed to Judaism...


    You present the problem with those who see their religion as a flag..."onward Christian soldier" types...

    I am glad to know that not all Christians are like you....

    You represent a person who has no respect for those different from yourself, and you hide your resentment in the frock and fetters of nation and religion.....

    But, what would Jesus do....what would he say?

    And, being that Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Quran, it would probably interest you to find out...

    Have you ever read the Gospel of Mary Magdelene, by the way?

    1. Shadesbreath profile image90
      Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      As if there is any chance she will open herself to anything other than indignation and self-righteous fury.

      I hope there really is a Jesus waiting in Heaven just so he can slap the sh-t out of people like that right before he punts their hateful souls down to the red man with the pointy tail and the pitch fork.

      1. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Who's furious?
        I see YOU being furious, apparently.  Other than that, who's furious?   Maybe a couple of posters besides James?

    2. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      There is no such thing as the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, so no I haven't read it.

    3. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Indeed I do have respect for people as human beings, everyone.
      But not for some religions nor State/National policies.
      Just as you have no respect for my Faith;  that's your legal right.  But I am not the one(s) who shows outright personal disrespect; that lack of honor is attributable to some others here, maybe including you?

      And no, Judaism is not directly opposed to Christianity, as Islam is.

      1. Beelzedad profile image61
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I couldn't agree with you more, Brenda. You're absolutely right. And, I would stand by you to uphold that respect and those rights.

        If we vie to control the rights of the individual while attempting to gain their respect, you would probably also agree the result of that would end in dismal failure.

        What would you think then would be the answer to resolving the stance against an anti-Christian religion, while attaining the respect of the people at the same time?

        smile

  10. profile image0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Oh wait.
    There are more than the one church like I was talking about that I've been to.
    One is actually a Methodist Church whose Pastor has shown, and is still showing, the perseverance of the saints.
    Another is a church in Ellettsville, Indiana, a Bible-believing, born-again, biker-rider congregation which many of them were rescued by the Lord from the streets, and are now in the Kingdom of God.

    1. Ron Montgomery profile image60
      Ron Montgomeryposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      How exactly do you ride a biker......?

      ...never mind, I don't want to know.

  11. skyfire profile image72
    skyfireposted 6 years ago

    America was christian nation earlier ? LOL since when ? red indians used to worship jesus. ?


    I think church, mosque and other religious hoopla is waste of time.

  12. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Judaism refutes the idea that Jesus is the son of God....and Muslims believe that he was a prophet, but not the son of God...

    That sounds awful similar....except for the fact that Islam uses Jesus...and Judaism rejects him...

    What Jewish texts cite Jesus?

    Again....Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Quran...

    As for my lack of honor...I am standing in opposition to hate-speech and rhetoric against a group of people....  This is much different than what you do...

    I have to fight against the self-righteous....those who brandy about some feeling of superiority based on superstition spread by other power hungry people.....

  13. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Contrary to what Jeff put forward, disease was understood by Europeans....

    Small pox was, at times, intentionally spread by British and Americans to the native population....

    The infamous small pox blanket.....Amhurst Massachusetts anyone?

    What of similar tactics used against the Seminoles??


    What of the practice of the government paying for the scalps of natives?  The "scalp bounty"....

    This is why natives, in turn, started scalping Europeans...this was a European tactic of destruction turned against the creator...

    I wonder where Jesus was when these fine Christian, God-fearing men went out to earn their money via the pelts of human heads?

    So, when one thinks of the fear of being scalped by an "indian"...remember, it was the Christian European who "educated" the "savage aborigine" of America in this practice.....

    Rape in California was brought through European hands as well....

    What would Jesus do? Where did he go? Where is the justice for crimes covered by flags and bibles?

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Even if what you said were true....

      Where is the justice, you ask?

      Um....you're forgetting about reparation again, about how America has tried to right the wrongs that were done.
      It has made something called....LAWS....that have corrected those things.

      Beyond that, where is justice?--------

      The same place where justice is for all wrongs.
      And...
      The Lord says vengeance belongs to Him.  Not to some so-called civil-rights activist group.

      And...
      vengeance is different from patriotic actions that protect the welfare of a Nation as a whole.



      So....what else are you going to blame on those European "Christian" immigrants?   
      Who do you blame for AIDS?   Let me guess......

    2. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Everything that you said is true except ....  Christians didn't do it, Government did it. 
         But truthfully   some self professed Christians (?) did join in on the frenzy.

    3. Jeff Berndt profile image92
      Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "Contrary to what Jeff put forward, disease was understood by Europeans...."
      Not at the time I was talking about it wasn't. I was talking about the late 1500s. Smallpox inoculation wasn't invented until Dr. Jenner started experimenting with it in the mid-1770s.

      "Small pox was, at times, intentionally spread by British and Americans to the native population...."
      Those incidents happened much later in history than the late 1500s (which is when the first contacts between Europeans and American Indians took place). The first smallpox blanket incident was sometime in the 1750s, long after first contact.

      Those initial contacts are what introduced smallpox &c to North America and wiped out so many of the native population, and those initial infections were nobody's fault.

      But yes, the English and later the US did send smallpox blankets to native groups, it was certainly a deliberate attempt to spread the disease among the Indians, and it was pretty un-Christian for a so-called "Christian nation" to be doing to its neighbors, don't you think?

      "Even if what you said were true...."
      Oh, it is. Deny it as much as you wish, it won't change what happened.(And here I thought you valued truth...)

      "...America has tried to right the wrongs that were done." And is still trying, and has a long way to go. But it's trying, and that's a good thing.

      "The Lord says vengeance belongs to Him."
      Well then maybe we should have turned the other cheek after 9/11?

      "vengeance is different from patriotic actions that protect the welfare of a Nation as a whole."
      Sure, wrap it in the flag and you can justify pretty much anything, especially if it victimizes an unpopular minority.

  14. profile image0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    So...
    you think the natives were peaceful, tolerant, non-violent, totally civilized, righteous people, none of whom raped and tortured white women and kids, nor their own people, and who never scalped anyone UNTIL the "white man" showed 'em how?

    And all the different tribes or groups or settlements of natives were.....united, in unison, just tryin' to live peaceful productive lives, right?

  15. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Thank you Brenda for agreeing that it was the "white" European "Christian" who brought scalping to the "new world" and rape to California....

    California was home to the largest number of native peoples, the broadest diversity of linguistic and ethnic groups, and of cultural identities....and yet rapine and warfare were nonexistant....

    The coming of the missionaries and the soldiers would change all this....

    Justice....wrought at the Carlisle Indian School one beating at a time.....  We put their families on reservations and then demanded that they hand over their children to us...or else we would withold the food and medical allowances this original federal welfare system created....

    We took their kids....beat them if they spoke their native languages....they died of disease in our care....and we culturally committed genocide...

    John Eastman anybody......Brenda, how about you?

    He was converted to Christianity....rose from the Carlisle Indian School to go to Yale, if I recall....the only one to do so.....he became a doctor, went back to the Sioux reservation, from whence he came, and beheld that "Christian Americans" were doing firsthand to his people....  And he published his findings....

    Read up......it is too bad our great American public schools don't share this great American's writings......  He puts "Christian America" in great perspective.....

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hold on now....
      Someone around here wrote a hub about the reservations, etc;  a rant about how they blame the "white man"/"Christians"....

      Are you talking about elements of the Catholic Church?   Or non-Catholic individual Christian groups?  or what?

  16. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    I speak of both.....for both are christian...whether catholic or protestant, they are of the same root....and behave in very similar, if not identical, ways....

    Read John Eastman, Brenda...

    Learn about the Carlisle Indian School....

    Find out about the Cherokee....who read and spoke English...lived in neighborhoods and wore clothes just like their American counterparts....published newspapers....the whole nine yards...

    And then look at what the U.S. government did to them....

    When John Sutter came west and set up in Northern California they would routinely ride out into the countryside and round up native peoples to work and "play" with....(remember..rape in California was brought from outsiders)...

    When they needed more people, they went out and gathered more, until there weren't any left, or until the native population moved away completely....

    But the real question to you, Brenda, is....how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?

    How deep until cognitive dissonance forces you to look away?

    By the way.....the tomohawk....most notably a weapon of the native Americans, was a weapon brought over and introduced by the French......and alcoholism wasn't far behind..

    Another little factoid to throw out there....

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think you mean Charles Eastman, not John Eastman, right?

      And...the "rabbit hole"....I'd delve all the way down to the bottom of it IF I knew the history sources were reliable.
      But that's the thing about "history"...the telling of it can be so lop-sided, or people get it twisted, or only tell one side of it, that it's practically impossible to know for sure what happened.

      The part of history I'm concerned about right now is TODAY.  I see tomorrow's history happening before my very eyes.  Just like you do.  And people are already being used as scapegoats to avoid looking at the real problem.
      Let me say this----
      I think if you ever had to be under Islamic law, you'd just maybe start to appreciate the Christians who've spoken against it.   But it would be too late then, wouldn't it?...

      1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
        Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        "I think you mean Charles Eastman,"
        There's a John Eastman and a Charles Eastman (no relation that I'm aware of), both of whom were born to native/white parents, and both of whom were educated "back east."

        "But that's the thing about "history"...the telling of it can be so lop-sided, or people get it twisted, or only tell one side of it, that it's practically impossible to know for sure what happened."
        Well, it's impossible to know a lot of the details for sure, that's true. But it's not all that hard to reliably document atrocities committed against the various Indian nations by the so-called Christian people of the US. That is, if you're interested in, y'know, actual history and not some bowdlerized grade-school Thanksgiving Day pageant version of it.

        "The part of history I'm concerned about right now is TODAY."
        Convenient.

  17. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    No Jim.....not so...

    IF a man is trying to do something to intimidate, cause fear, to provoke, or to incite, whatever he does needs to be analyzed....especially when we are using his own words against him....

    The "ground zero mosque" was a concoction of Christian extremists and the media....  The hype was about as honest as the Bush/Cheney build-up to Iraqi invasion.....  A bunch of smoke and mirrors....

    I have no problem with religious groups having their places of worship....  But what this thread speaks to...the original topic of this thread that is, is something much different...

    There was a Greek Orthodox church actually located at Ground Zero.... I hope it gets rebuilt...  I hope that real Christians, and not the political charlatans that like to cloak themselves with the cross, show their support for their bretheren....

    But, the last time I checked, there aren't enough donations coming in...

    How is the expansion of an already existing community center synonymous with the proposed idea related by the original poster in this thread?

    These are not the same thing...

  18. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Jerami...the government is made of people....

    People did these things.....and these were people who identified themselves as Christians....

    It was based on the "superiority" of "European," "Christian", and "manifest destiny (which of itself is a religious connotation) that these acts were perpetrated...

    But, God fearing Bible folk also owned slaves...they also had illegitimate children with women they viewed as property...

    They also lynched....

    And this goes directly to Brenda's ongoing assertion that the U.S. is a Christian nation....

    It is time responsibility was taken.....stand up and take a bow for the legacy of blood, bullets, abandoned children that has been carried forward, generation upon generation since European Christians stepped into the "New World"....

    1. Jerami profile image79
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I'm on your side on this.
        My only objection is that there is a difference between self profession of faith in God and doing it.

         I know this has nothing to do with the issue at hand and is not an excuse for the genocide that occurred.   BUT ...

         As I stated on another thread.  1% of the earths population dies every year.
         Had all those Europeans not come to america, They possibly would have died of starvation or something else.

         They chose to kill the Indians in lien of their own self preservation.  Is that  a Christian thing to do? Of course not or maybe depending upon the definition.
         Is it a doing Gods will thing to do?  I think by this time he would rather we came on home than to send someone else.

  19. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Forgive me.....I do mean Charles Eastman.....

    That's what I get for writing from wrote...

    But his words are no less meaningful...

    As for living under Islamic Law, Brenda, my family did so for around 500 years....and they did quite well... The Armenian Genocide, which had more to do with Western Christian conflicts among Eastern Christian sects, like the Gregorians, changed my living location...

    How about yours?

    Have you had any family live under Muslim rule?

    I also am from native American descent.....  In the Ottoman Empire, my family was able to keep their language, their system of beliefs, and their properties...and live according to the rules of their church....

    For native Americans...much of our history has been lost...stripped...stolen...erased...

    Given this track record, along with that of Jews (kicked out and abused by European Christians while protected and enabled to follow their customs under the Ottoman Muslims.....it is interesting to think what America would have looked like....

    Again Brenda, how much experience does your family have with "Muslim rule"?

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Wait a minute.
      I'm not talking about your ancestors.  I'm talking about whether you yourself want to be under Sharia Law.

      And if everyone wanted to be "social justice" activists, I imagine I could do the same if I looked up my family history from waaay back.  Heck, I've been told that my father's family had some "Indian" blood.  And I'm fair-skinned, so maybe on the other side of my genetics I'm.....part Irish or part...whatever!   So what?   I honestly don't really want to know!  Because it might sway me toward prejudices or vengeance for what people AGES AGO did to my ancestors!   I'm a Christian, so I believe in forgiveness, not vengeance.  And forgiveness doesn't mean allowing someone to run all over ya; it can mean getting them the heck away from ya even after they're forgiven.
      And I'm an American.
      So I don't want to be agged into saying I'm an "Irish American" or "Chinese American" or "African American" because those are MISNOMERS!   No matter where my ancestors came from, I am here in America.   And even if I were from ....say....Africa.....I'd have to go back and live in Africa if I were to stake claim to BEING African.


      This is getting tedious.
      Some people just don't seem to even grasp what it means to be an American citizen, to actually have allegiance to the U.S.A., not the label of any other Country.

  20. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Jerami.....  Self preservation?  I don't think so....

    Material profit...gain from stolen lands and lives....

    Power.....hegemony....this is what drove Europeans west...and through the Americas...

    Survival?

    I don't see how.....

  21. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    I have just tested your knowledge of "sharia law" and you have been found wanting Brenda....

    As a Christian, Brenda, you would not be ruled by sharia, but by the rules and laws of your religious sect, which would have a protected status....

    Just think, you would have the christian theocracy that it seems you want at times...

    Not being a "person of the book" I'm sure I will find my way just fine...I'm a big boy...  I am very glad that many, many, many Muslims are very happy with secular states....as am I...

    They have learned, as have many Christians, Jews, agnostics, atheists, and others...that when it comes to governance, religion needs to stay at home...

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ah.  And now we get to the real bottom of this.
      You're upset that the Laws of the U.S have heretofore been based on Biblical principles, and you are part of the "social justice" movement to secularize our laws.

      Why didn't you just say so in the first place?
      I guess I'm slipping, or I would've seen that to start with, and not wasted my time trying to show anything to you.

      1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
        Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        "...the Laws of the U.S have heretofore been based on Biblical principles"

        Utter nonsense.

  22. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Brenda, you should back up your claims with evidence...quote me where I expressed what you put forward...

    Upset?  You are the one ranting about Muslims....I'm standing up for a minority population....which I don't even belong to....

    I am countering your aggression with equal force....but also with facts...which are not angry...

    Perhaps you should project less....

    Read Charles Eastman......

    Learn about the terms you use before you actually use them.....

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I will project that, even if my ancestors were under the tyranny of England, I would not NOW blame the current residents of England.

    2. Jim Hunter profile image59
      Jim Hunterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "You are the one ranting about Muslims....I'm standing up for a minority population....which I don't even belong to...."

      Why?

      The majority of them would never stand up for you, your loyalty is very misplaced.

      By the way, a billion Muslims are not a minority.

      1. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Finally, common sense pops in.

      2. Jeff Berndt profile image92
        Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        ""You are the one ranting about Muslims....I'm standing up for a minority population....which I don't even belong to...."

        Why?"

        Because minorities still have rights, even if you don't think they deserve them.

        "By the way, a billion Muslims are not a minority."

        There aren't a billion people in the US, let alone a billion Muslims.

  23. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Jim.....really?

    To begin with, I speak as an American...and Muslims are a minority population in this nation...

    Also, being that Muslims are of diverse ethnicities, I am also supporting them on a non-religious level..

    Why?

    Why not?

    As for "them", and how "they" would treat me....I know too many Muslims to fall prey to your rhetoric...

    How many Muslims do you know Jim?

    As Americans, these men and women deserve support...they are entitled to protections....and should be given the same rights and respects that we receive...

    Anyone who says otherwise should think about that before they start trying to talk about "America."

    Jim.....think about what you are saying before you say it....

    Brenda....thus is demonstrated the flaws of "common sense"..

  24. mikelong profile image83
    mikelongposted 6 years ago

    Small pox innoculation may not have come until later...but the Spanish and other early "New World" colonizers coupled their Black Death experiences with the pandemics wiping native peoples out...

    Charles Eastman was a Lakota Sioux who was taken at 15 to attend Carlisle Indian School...  He wrote many various works discussing the conflicts between native peoples and "white" Americans..

    He became a medical doctor, and after gaining prominence he returned to the Sioux reservation from the East Coast in time to behold American military animosity towards his people...

    He was disillusioned by the "Christian" way he had been taught, especially when American soldiers were killing the Sioux people that he was trying to save....

    His books should be read in middle schools across the nation, in my opinion...

    Otherwise Jeff, I agree with your viewpoints 100%...

    I don't think Brenda realizes that the more she tries to turn the U.S. into a Christian nation the worse Christianity appears and becomes.....

    1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
      Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "the Spanish and other early "New World" colonizers coupled their Black Death experiences with the pandemics wiping native peoples out..."
      Indeed. Many writers of the time viewed the mass death of the North American natives as the will of God. Ew.

      "the more she tries to turn the U.S. into a Christian nation the worse Christianity appears and becomes....."

      And more to the point, the worse the US will appear and become.

  25. Pcunix profile image88
    Pcunixposted 6 years ago

    I came across this interesting history lesson recently:

    http://gotmedieval.blogspot.com/2010/08 … story.html

    1. Jeff Berndt profile image92
      Jeff Berndtposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      "So it's easy to see why a group of Muslims creating a community center in the heart of a majority Christian country in a city known for its large Jewish population might name it "The Cordoba House" They're not, as Gingrich hopes we would believe, discreetly laughing at us because "Cordoba" is some double-secret Islamist code for "conquest"; rather, they're hoping to associate themselves with a particular time in medieval history when the largest library in Western Europe was to be found in Cordoba, a city in which scholars of all three major Abrahamic religions were free to study side-by-side."

      *Sigh* The religious Right has been distorting history to further their political ends for years, and continues to do so. They usually distort American history to bolster their claims to a privileged place in the US (the Christian Nation BS), but now they're distorting the history of Medieval Spain to make it okay to stir up discord in NYC (contributing to...what was Brenda's phrase? "The balkanization of America?" Something like that.)

      1. Pcunix profile image88
        Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Oh, well.  You know what they'll say:  "We  don't get our facts left wing web sites"

        That's their stock answer for everything.   They don't get it from NPR either.

 
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