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Origin of Right and Wrong?

  1. TruthDebater profile image60
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    Is the conscience the origin of what is right and wrong? What is the origin of the conscience via evolution? Do other animals show conscience in altruistic behavior and why did we develop a conscience? Can the conscience control and override genetically programmed physical instinct?

    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Is the conscience the origin of what is right and wrong?
      The origin, no. The factory where both occur, yes.

      What is the origin of the conscience via evolution?
      Being sympathetic to evolution, for a second, I would say the origin in [human] evolution was the moment humans regarded the conscious balance, the necessity, apart from their natural environment.

      Do other animals show conscience in altruistic behavior and why did we develop a conscience?
      I still cannot wrap myself around the concept of animal consciousness v bootstrap instinct. Seems a contradiction in terms.

      Can the conscience control and override genetically programmed physical instinct?
      Perhaps. The override seems evident in humans, since they have the ability to consider, actively or passively right/wrong. Often times, humans override their instinct to satisfy the conscious mind and [the key word here] enabling control of the mind, through a kind of self hypnosis almost. That is how the override is accomplished. Some call it convincing or conviction. Forcing a decision and causing instinct to subside. Some could even go so far as to say sin, since the natural instinct would not want to do a thing, yet the conscious mind needing to do, overrides yet again.

      Interesting stuff TD.

      1. TruthDebater profile image60
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Twenty. Interesting response, thank you.
        What do you believe the origin of right and wrong are if not the conscience which tells you to go against or with instinct? If it took us humans to separate ourselves from other life to develop conscience, why do other animals display behaviors that appear to require conscience that are still in the natural environment?
        I do not understand bootstrap instinct. Evolution explains instinct as anything to further individual survival and survival of the fittest, many animals display atruistic actions which put others ahead of themselves for their individual sacrifices to further the species. This is seen in instinct as simple as ants having slaves to build the colony. If only for individual selfishness, why would any species work together?
        Could the override not also be seen in other life? If a parent is hungry with the personal instinct and need to eat, but feeds their young first by altruism and maternal instinct, wouldn't this be override of individual instinct? How would maternal instinct develop without conscience or altruism in other life?

    2. IntimatEvolution profile image82
      IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      TruthDebator, are you ever going to write a hub?  Why do you choose to ignore that aspect of hubpages?

      1. TruthDebater profile image60
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks IntimatE. I am working on a few hubs, but I don't like them enough to finish and publish. I also think I can learn more in forums than I can writing a hub. My hubs don't debate me. lol

        1. IntimatEvolution profile image82
          IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I see.  Well I look forward to reading them when you do decide to publish.  However, don't you think that you bring on confrontation from other hubbers, simply because you are not a published author?  Most people are ridiculed in society for spouting this and that, and having nothing to back up their opinions too.  That's like a voter not voting, but, complaining about who was elected.  What grounding do they have to participate in those types of discussions?  The answer is quite simple- no vote no opinion.

          I think you ask very interesting questions.  I think you bring much to the forums.  However, when you post a topic about "right or wrong" I find that extremely ironic.  Here you are- no hubs, nothing- and yet you expect us published hubbers to respect your sincerity to hosting a logical debate about the origins of right or wrong.  Are you kidding me?  That's is funny stuff right there.  Your presence in these forums is questionable to me.  Not that you don't have a lot to offer, because you do but because YOU have nothing in writing.  You have NO published articles.  YOU are reaping the rewards of what us published hubbers have help to build, and you want to talk about right and wrong.  That's funny. 

          Respect is earned Truthdebator. Just some food for thought.

    3. kess profile image61
      kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Conscience is because of Self consciousness/awareness.
      whosoever possess self awareness would posses a conscience or a knowledge of good and evil or right and wrong.

      The conscience maybe purified, when this occurs then that one becomes perfect and no longer sees good and evil but all as good. This perfection takes them above death itself.

      The conscience that still sees in double , good and evil , is still subjected to death.

  2. Misha profile image76
    Mishaposted 6 years ago

    human mind

    1. TruthDebater profile image60
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. What about altruism in other animals? Some kill one another on a habitual basis within their species while some hardly ever or never kill within themselves. If conscience is only available to us, why do not all animals have the same programmed genetic instinct lacking a conscience or altruism instead of displaying different instinct and choice?

      1. Misha profile image76
        Mishaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Never heard animals debating right and wrong smile

        And you are trying to pack several questions into one, I do not assume that altruistic behavior is right as you do. Neither I do assume it is wrong. Nor I make any assumption about causal relationships between conscience and altruistic behavior. smile

        1. TruthDebater profile image60
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          lol Thanks. I didn't say that. But some do have further maternal or altruistic instinct compared to others. Why would they evolve altruism without a conscience or without choice? Why would they evolve more order among themselves to further survival if they didn't recognize helping instead of hurting one another was beneficial to their survival?

        2. profile image68
          paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You mean they don't have a mind?

      2. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Please give 10 examples of altruism in other animals and explain how you know what these animals are thinking, and how they are making decisions based on human values.

        1. TruthDebater profile image60
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. Again, not interested in taking surveys. Many people pay others to take surveys. Please explain how instinct in "survival of the fittest" would further the population of a single species without "altruism" within the species? If a species has no altruism or instinct not to eat one another, wouldn't most of the species be extinct? Isn't it choice not to eat one another?

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Sorry - your assumptions are interfering with my ability to understand your bombardment of questions. I am not aware of any examples of animals exhibiting altruism. Please give me 10 examples of this behavior that you have observed and explain why you believe this behavior is based on human perceptions and feelings such as altruism. Or do you just not understand how evolution works? Because you seem to be saying that animals do not eat their own species and this is altruistic? LOLOL

            I don't know why cows do not eat other cows. Sorry LOLOL

            1. Mancini profile image60
              Manciniposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              You have a point TruthDebater. For example, a dog's loyalty to its master and so on would appear to be based on something 'deeper' than mere instinct. There's a bond that can only be described as love.

              1. TruthDebater profile image60
                TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Thank You Mancini, agreed.

              2. profile image68
                paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                And love comes from which source?

                1.brain
                2.heart
                3.mind

                Anyone of them or a combination of them

              3. earnestshub profile image88
                earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                If you ever owned a Labrador you would know it is based on love ... of food! lol

            2. TruthDebater profile image60
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks. You do not think it's altruistic to not eat within the species when facing hunger? Isn't there choice not to eat one another when hungry when it may be easier than hunting/catching prey?
              Why should it take 10? Is this the scientific survey method?
              If you understand this better, please feel free to explain your belief. Why is it not altruistic not to eat your own species?

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Sorry - I don't understand - you are claiming that animals do not eat their own kind because they have a selfless concern for the welfare of other members of their species? How do you know what animals are thinking? Can you read their thoughts?

                You are the one making the assumptive claim. Please explain why you have made this irrational assumption and give me 10 examples of this behavior - or is the fact that they do not eat each other enough proof for you?

                Guess you did not read that book I suggested and learn about all the species that do eat their own kind either. If you had - perhaps you would have understood that evolution is about the species, then you may grasp why it is usually not a good thing for the same species to eat each other and has nothing to do with your belief that animals have the same emotions and perceptions as humans.

                Are the ones that eat their own kind "evil," Marine?

                Thanks.

                1. TruthDebater profile image60
                  TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Please stop making personal attacks, thanks. When someone is often offended and draws prebiased assumptions and conclusions, it's no longer scientific belief, it is religious belief.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    How is that a personal attack Marine? Your assumption is clear.

                  2. profile image68
                    paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Nevermind; religion, in my opinion, is deeply rooted in the sub-concious mind if not in the conscious mind of Atheists Skeptics Agnostics. I think you will agree with me; that is why they spend so much time writing on religion forum.

                2. profile image68
                  paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I read an article; it mentions that dogs not only think they see dreams also.

    2. profile image68
      paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What is human mind? Do the animals have mind? Please

      1. Misha profile image76
        Mishaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Never mind big_smile

  3. profile image0
    philip carey 61posted 6 years ago

    I heard a prominent evolutionary biologist say that one of the last remaining problems to solve in his field is the origin of altruistic behavior.

    1. TruthDebater profile image60
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thank You Philip. I don't think Mr. Knowles got that memo.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        LOL Who was this prominent evolutionary biologist and where did he say this nonsense? lol lol

        1. TruthDebater profile image60
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. Everything in evolution is already fully explained right? lol

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Much of it - yes. Sorry - Can you answer the questions please.

            Thanks.

            1. TruthDebater profile image60
              TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thanks. I will answer your questions when you gain manners and stop defending your belief with so many assumptions and ridicule. Why would I start a thread to answer a survey? I started the thread to ask questions and learn answers, not to be ridiculed by an atheist defense of evolution. I apologize my questions are offensive to you.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I asked because I do not understand. How do you know what animals are thinking? Why is not eating your own kind "altruistic," and how do you know that this is the reason they do not eat their own kind - because they are altruistic rather than to propagate the species?

                You do not want answers Marine. if you did  you would not be repeating yet another variation of the same theme. lol lol lol

                Odd how every single one of your threads - regardless of whether I am in it - degenerates into a bombardment of questions, the answers to which you ignore completely in favor of another barrage - all of which demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of evolution.

                What does a lion know of "right or wrong"? lol

                1. TruthDebater profile image60
                  TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Thanks. You are still making personal attacks. I will respond when you learn to read my name.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I do not know your name. I only know the various user names you hide behind. What is your name?

                  2. alternate poet profile image78
                    alternate poetposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    This is clearly NOT a personal attack - Mark is asking a perfectly clear and thought out set of questions in relation to your nonsensical post which is - as he points out, simply a bombardment of questions, some of them pretty stupid questions that might be expected from an overactive child.  This is a personal attack, what Mark is doing is asking questions that you don't want to answer because they defeat your trivial and slightly dim argument.

          2. profile image68
            paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            That would be a tall claim; I don't agree; as that would logically the end of evolution. It is an ongoing process unless stopped by the Creator-God Allah YHWH. And that end has not yet come.

  4. barranca profile image71
    barrancaposted 6 years ago

    A lot of people make the mistake of considering the impulse to survive as in itself "selfish" which implies a moral judgment.  Life forms survive....that is what they do.  An altruism behavior may have evolved because it has helped the group or family survive.  I may be mistaken but I think that the argument over whether evolution operates only through individuals is controversial.

    1. TruthDebater profile image60
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks. I don't think it is surviving that is seen selfish, I think it is sometimes the choice in how to survive that can be selfish or altruistic. I agree lifeforms are built to survive, but many survive by different means and behaviors, not the same instincts. I agree with you that evolution is the addition of others in the individuals environment, but for a new instinct to start, only one individual choice or mutation has to happen.

  5. Misha profile image76
    Mishaposted 6 years ago

    LOL what did I step into? yikes

  6. profile image0
    klarawieckposted 6 years ago

    Here is my "out-there" response to your question - Animals have a Spirit as humans do. The amount of Spiritual energy that animals have is not as large as the one used by a human. However, as Spiritual energy develops it will go through a process of evolution itself. Let's say that the same amount of Spirit needed to fill a human body could be divided into let's say... 4 dogs, or 4 dolphins, or 4 horses (rather intelligent animals that think and behave emotionally very similar to us humans) but it can also be distributed into 15 birds, or 100 butterflies, etc. What I'm saying is just an example and the numbers are not meant to be taken as correct. This, of course, suggests that animals that have a more altruistic nature and seem to have a more evolved conscience are closer to our Spiritual energy level than others. That's my point of view anyways. You can crucify me now! big_smile But I still love you all! big_smile big_smile big_smile

    1. profile image68
      paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You have explained things in a nice way; who will crucify such a lady?

      1. profile image0
        klarawieckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Mark Knowless... lol

        1. luvpassion profile image60
          luvpassionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Back from the Netherworld... lol

        2. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Haven't heard that one before. No really - never heard it. Not when I was five, not ever in school and never from a religionist. lol

          You are so wonderfully creative, I don't know how you managed to come up with that. Know less, Knowles. Wonderful - demonstrates the level of ingenuity you are capable of very effectively. Well done. wink

          @lp - Yes - I was banned for a week for telling some one that writing hubpages teaching people how to make money at hubpages when they then announce in the forum that they have not made any money is lying. This is a personal attack apparently. Oh well. sad

          1. profile image0
            klarawieckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Mark, that was intentional I swear! LOL I laugh now because I did it without noticing. I'm sure you get it all the time. Sorry! big_smile Welcome back.

          2. luvpassion profile image60
            luvpassionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Oh Mr. Knowles, one of my favorite atheists...glad your back. roll

            Mr. Knowles you got banned for calling someone a lier! Ridiculous.

            Klara, please work on your baiting skills. smile

    2. Beelzedad profile image61
      Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Nah, it's very cute. smile

      1. profile image0
        klarawieckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You DO love me Beelyboy! wink

        1. Beelzedad profile image61
          Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You're absolutely adorable, who wouldn't...? smile

          1. profile image0
            klarawieckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks Beely! You too. big_smile

    3. TruthDebater profile image60
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks Klara, I don't wanna ridicule or crucify you lol. I enjoyed your thoughts. You could be right. I don't wanna sound like a ridiculing skeptic, but is there any books that can give evidence or observation to there being spirit or soul?

  7. profile image68
    paarsurreyposted 6 years ago

    Origin of Right and Wrong?

    Everybody now come to the topic of the thread; please

    Thanks

    1. TruthDebater profile image60
      TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks for getting things back on track. I think the origin is altruism from witnessing other animals take care of one another to further and stronger the species. I do not know the origin of altruism or why it is a choice of conscience rather than a selfish individual determination to survive.

      1. adrienne2 profile image82
        adrienne2posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I have a more interesting question.  How does a hubber gain 9 followers with no hubs written?

        1. TruthDebater profile image60
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. I don't know a answer to your question, but I enjoy their company.

          1. srwnson profile image60
            srwnsonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Very simple as far as I'm concerned, I wrote hubs attracted people, got a publisher interested, deleted hubs.

      2. profile image68
        paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I think even the wolfs care about their kind.

  8. IntimatEvolution profile image82
    IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago

    So now the truth is told....., hm very interesting indeed.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this
      1. TruthDebater profile image60
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks. Leave it up to the atheist to play games after I answer his question even after he continually lacks manners. Hard to see why some are biased to believe some atheists have no morals or decency?

      2. IntimatEvolution profile image82
        IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        OMG, its YOU!  The science project guy!!!  OMG!

        Oh....., oh, oh, oh, oh-oh.

        Why are you writing in the forums, when you've been banned?  You have permission to do this?

        1. TruthDebater profile image60
          TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks. You people are like a cult of assumptions aren't you when something challenges your beliefs?

  9. TruthDebater profile image60
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    If a mouse is in a cage with a shocker, everytime the mouse goes to a certain part of the cage, it gets shocked. The mouse learns the "right" places to go and the "wrong" places to go in the cage of where not to get shocked. If the mouse went to the wrong place, it would get shocked. The mice like humans memorize and choose the right and wrong places to move or behave.

  10. skyfire profile image72
    skyfireposted 6 years ago

    neutral

  11. TruthDebater profile image60
    TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago

    It really seems like when I ask a question that gives evidence to choice rather than genetic determinism, the atheist materialists all come running at the same time to protect their belief of genetics with no choice.
    I find it interesting Darwin didn't speak much of animal altruism in origin of species. But everything in evolution is already fully understood and known right? lol

    1. adrienne2 profile image82
      adrienne2posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I kinda think you want the scienceology forum.

      1. TruthDebater profile image60
        TruthDebaterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks. It is personal belief of where the origin of right and wrong came from. I don't think science knows or has stated the origin of right and wrong. I also haven't heard science claim only humans know right and wrong. But I have heard materialist atheists claim humans are the only ones that know right and wrong.

        1. profile image68
          paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          It is out of the scope of the Science to determine "right and wrong"; there would have been no science if there would have been no concept of right or wrong. It existed before the tool of science was "invented" by the humans with a restricted perimeter beyond which it cannot work; as is with every tool.

          The concept of right or wrong has been instilled in the human psyche evolving gradually as designed by the Creator-God Allah YHWH.

          1. pisean282311 profile image57
            pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            science is what you and me exist because of...now instead of thanking fellow humans who made life easy for you and me ,you want to thank something which still is not able to prove itself?...this is not gratitute man...

            coming to concept of right and wrong..a professor's hand was chopped by some muslims because they thought their peigambar was being insulted...a church in florida is going to burn quran.....now why does religion not teach what is right to these guys?...

  12. SilentReed profile image87
    SilentReedposted 6 years ago

    Evolution is all about survival. What is right today would be wrong tomorrow depending on the expediency and need for the survival of the majority of the human race. What's  your conscience got to do with it? Golda Meir once said "Don't be humble,your not that great".

    1. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      There is no talking to the OP - he cannot even define what "right" and "wrong" actually mean and will just pound out questions attacking proven evolutionary biology.

      Right and wrong are simply human concepts to transmit an idea to other humans. There is nothing inherently right or wrong in anything.

      Evolutionary speaking - I suppose you could say that eating another member of your species is "wrong," if it weakens your species' ability to reproduce and successfully propagate but if you are eating weaker members to get rid of a trait - that would make it "right," as far as the strength of the species goes.

      Nonsensical thread really. The assumption that animals do not eat their own kind because they are "altruistic," and know it is "wrong," is first of all incorrect, because many animals do exactly that (including humans in the past or when desperate enough) and there are plenty of other reasons for it I can think of that make a lot more sense than being able to read animal's thoughts. lol

 
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