I don't think so. I believe that the sub-conscious mind already knows there is no god.
The flight and fight mechanism is the driving force behind the need for a god, but the mind already knows it is a self preservation mechanism the conscious mind sets up to cope with the fear of dying.
That is why you get evangelicals and zealots. They have no understanding of their mind, so they have to deal with their fear by trying to project it on to others.
What do you think and why?
OK...I'll bite.... it is writen that God says we can not see his face. So it has to be by faith..?
By faith implies that we have a state of mind, which can be induced or created through repeated affirmations or instructions to the subconscious mind, that we do to ourselves through the principle of auto-suggestion.
Another definition or description of faith, given in the Bible is "faith is that which comes by hearing and by hearing by the word of God."
Analysing both definitions finds one common denominator. They both refer to, or imply that in order for one to have faith, that person must continue to do something.
Continue to hear through re-affirming the words (reading them over and over at various times) and let the Concious mind talk to the Sub concious mind.
in other words it is a continuous process: "you repeate in your head affirmations or instructions," and the sub-consious comes by hearing."
Note please, that I am saying here that it "comes by hearing," it didn't say "when you hear." You are talking in your mind to your own sub-concious. Not God talking to you!
When the bible says to hear and continuously hear the word of God, that corresponds to the idea of faith that says to repeatedly affirm or instruct your subconscious mind. (Be of a God mind)
Both definitions imply the role the individual plays in having faith. You (and no one else) are the one who must continuously hear, so "you" are the one who must repeatedly instruct your subconscious mind.
so do you actualy hear God? or do you read the words and tell your sub-concious over and over. I am comming to a realization in my studies that I actualy do this, it is how I get to the deep seeded belief.
and by your question and its suggestion Earnest....one could also argue there is no God because nothing is communicated, it is self induced through years of re-afferming the words in your sub-concious mind, from your concious.
But....Remember; and I have read where you agree with this in principle only;
That God or a power, is inside of the self..? What I am saying is that the Subconsious mind is the God power, it is the God mind in us, and thus our link to the real God. What we call (concience) is the actual Sub-concious mind.
God said we are in his immage, and I am begining to believe the Concious mind and sub concious minds work togeather as one, as do God and the Son of God in the Trinity. not same but similar i mean.
So I do believe I read the words, and do the re-afirming sending messages to my God mind, and that mind confirms, or affirms the words for me. Thus I seed the sub-concious and thus believe through constant re-affirmation
When you do this, when you link to the God mind? there is no fear of dying, no fight and or flight mechanism.
I also think this is what seperates us from Animals, they have basic thought, eat, fight, flight, submit; nothing more. God shapes the enviorment around them mentaly so they can function, there's is a direct mind link not like Humans, they have not the sub-consious or God mind.
Their world is survival of the fitest, and it is why Darwin fails, he was right but only for animals. Kill instinct in Humans is imbred through training, not natural. it is also not reasoned in animals, they are using there Fight instinct, they have no control over it like we do. It has to be bread out of them.Thats why animals in zoos are still dangerious.
Humans can choose to not link to the God mind and function away from God (think independent, SIN in the original definition) or they can choose to link to the inner God mind. He (God) does not interfear with that, "we" must make the choice alone.
Stopping here i must say I am impressed Earnest;
Nice trap Sir....soooo very well done.....lol
sorry for the length, I just wanted to answer it fairly.
Nice reply. No trap.
I will respond a little later if you don't mind, as I am hoping to receive more thoughtful responses like this one.
This is what creates the deep seated belief, and demonstrates that there is not actually a god - it is all in your mind. You can use the same techniques to help you believe almost anything. Look in the mirror every morning and spend 20 minutes telling your self what a good looking devil you are and I guarantee your self confidence will be massively boosted.
You are contradicting yourself here and now claiming an external God - the "real God," - which is it? The subconscious mind is not god power.
I know this and can prove it, because I can access a large aspect of my subconcious mind and control a good portion of it.
I can direct my dreams, set a mental alarm clock that never fails, slow my heart rate and all sorts of other things that the subconcious mind and sympathetic nervous system are in control of.
God said no such thing, but - of course these work together. Much of the aim of Yoga and the martial arts is concerned with taking control of the parts of your mind and body that you are not necessarily aware of. Spend 2 hours a day, 7 days a week blocking a punch and you will block it without thinking when the time comes.
Repetition is a vital part of almost any training system. This is why religion has you repeat the same actions over and over.
It is very comforting - and as I think you are starting to see - is what teaches you to believe there is an invisible super being there at a visceral level.
I personally choose to ue this in a different way and have learned to sense intent and do a number of other things instead. There is a place you can put yourself in a myriad of ways involving repetition. Do some Buddhist chanting for a while and you will go to exactly the same place as the Catholics go when burning incense and chanting prayers or the Aikido master goes to when defending against several people attacking him. There is a lot of untapped power there that you can tap on a day to day basis if you wish. You. No god involved.
A large part of what you are doing is allowing the parasympathetic nervous system to take control and becoming relaxed at a very deep level. It is good for you to exercise both nervous systems.
This is what causes a large part of the stress of daily life - allowing our fight or flight response to get confused and not using it as is natural.
Spend enough time using it to worry about whether you are going to make enough money to pay the mortgage and eventually you get ill. Run a 100 yard sprint every now and then will help with that.
The fight or flight response is part of us - our self awareness and religious and cultural training is clashing with that.
There you go.
Wrong. You can use this same technique to heighten the fight or flight mechanism and improve it. Or to relax yourself to the point where you are no longer afraid. But - the mechanism is still there.
This is why I do not agree with most religions - it teaches people to go against their natural way of being. Which doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Nothing separates us from animals. This is just another example of wrong thinking being pounded out by religious propaganda. We are part and parcel of the earth and nothing separates us from them. If we do not understand this and some how get rid of this idea - we are destined to destroy ourselves - Just like The Nonsense tells us we will.
Animals have a subconscious mind as well as a joint mind in some cases.
Our world is survival of the fittest. We are starting to get away from this also I admit, but it is no different. Fight, flight and kill instinct is there for all animals - including us. You need to be very well trained in order to over ride it and I have known very few people capable of doing so. Seriously - try holding your breath until you die.
He does not do any such thing, because there is no external god. You can choose to be as you are naturally or invent magical super beings that prevent you from understanding your self and your real relationship with the rest of the world. We are getting further away from it all the time - with the aid of religion and a belief in a god.
I guess my question here is; If we are as basic as animal functioning, and we well could be, I do see your points. They are valid and reasonable.
Then how does one explain Conscience. I do not think animals have that. I do not feel I was contradicting myself in that the Inner mind is the power mind, the God mind or Spirit mind if you will, and I believe that the link to the outer mind is Conscience. If you will allow me here, for a picture, inner layer (Spirit Power inside you), outer shell(your mind)and an interfacing layer in-between them (Conscience)
people reason what is right and wrong, yet they still ignore the reasoning and do it anyway...lol
but they honestly know the differences even without reading the words of God. By this I mean they function through sight and sense, they follow. Stop at a stop sign, do not steal, they see police, etc.... thats not living in God it is exhistance in the law. I am speaking of much deeper here. Man in spirit and cell, both.
The Conscience (our ability to reason). I believe is the thread between the sub-concious mind and the mind itself. One inside the other so to speak. and Conscience being that Spirit to Chemical reaction interfacing layer, that ties them togeather, to produce a thought, and or action.
I am saying or am trying to say that God in spirit comes to man through that sub-concious mind, and that Conscience layer filters the contact and allows us to reason with him.
I guess as ludicriouis as it sounds to you, I am suggesting there is a real spirit power in the universe (God) and we touch him through the sub-concious mind. And pass it through conscience to the mind, which results in some rationalization and thus thoughts afirmed or denied with reading (hearing-not spoken word) the words. And with Faith we accept the reasoning. But.....we test itI
we ask and verify that the words are right. Did the result of following them come out right?
are they correct for us? We test God. The words of God written say for us to do this. Thats how we stay in the Faith and want to go back to affirm more words. We prove his Truth.
(Do the words prove true?) To me they do.
If we affirm Gods words and prove them to ourselves, then we continue to touch his power, his spirit in sub-concious, and continue to reason with him. Thus through that sub-concious contact, that constant process of hearing, testing and returning to re-affirm- we keep unity with God.
I think that is really our one True purpose in life, fellowship with God. I think that was what was really laid down to Moses in the Torra, he explained how to do this process, to keep him and not seperate from him.
I think the Translations have totaly taken this and turned it into something so far from Gods original intention, and humanised it so that now when we need direction it can be mis-concived as un-believable. So many self serving versions, and twists not there originaly.
So.....LOL....... yes, I am doing as you say I am, re-affirming over and over, conditioning-exercising the inner mind, then testing His words and trying to keep a touch to the Spirit Power of God. Manipulating myself until it is an automatic in response to do that.
I realise I am making A clear Choice, choosing to do this. My beliefe is he is a real living spirit. As nutty as that sounds ( I do know both sides) But, I am finding truth in that process.
and.... I also know you are not wrong for your choices. I can see why now, in your reasoning and I think you have valid points. and I do respect that you do not agree with this, We are both making a free choice, which is our right to do so.
Thank you for a discussion which I am enjoying.
Yes - you are making a clear choice. You are not testing anyone's Word,not are you testing god or proving anything to anyone - not even yourself d - you are deliberately brain washing yourself. That is what most of you do. It is the only way to get yourself to accept this as anything other than an irrational need.
Sadly it is leading you away from your potential because you are filling your head with white noise as a distraction. If you genuinely explored the actual possibilities and understood yourself a little more - you would not need to do this.
I would find the discussion much more interesting if you actually addressed what I said to you instead of repeating what you already said.
I already know that you have decided there is an invisible super being and all you really want is validation of that belief. This is why you spend so much time reinforcing it. And this is your choice because it makes you feel better. Honestly - if it didn't come with so many bad, terrible things attached to it - I probably wouldn't have an opinion on it.
I cannot validate that belief for you because you have absolutely nothing to back it up. Nothing at all - other than you have decided to believe this - and if your brethren are anything to go by - will fight for it.
Conscience? Explain conscience? Do you really need me to explain why it is necessary to force the members of our society to follow certain cultural norms in order to maintain a harmonious existence within the community?
You think it was given by an invisible super being I suppose? And are quite happy to ignore the murder, mayhem and unconscionable acts perpetrated by most of the humans on the planet every day.
And are quite happy to ignore the upcoming war between two different cultures - both of whom think an invisible super being tells them what to do?
Hey - your choice - believe what you want - just remember where it belongs - in your head - not telling people what the imaginary super being said.
I wish I could tell you back that you have made some valid and reasonable points, but all you have really done is repeated the "I can't believe there is not a god because I don't understand where XYZ comes from," argument - in your case "Conscience" and admitted that you merely reinforce this to yourself regularly. I do not understand the then leap that this invisible super being then proceeded to write a book for you which happens to be a completely different book from the other big political religion.
There is much written about the way we reason and your faith is completely different to what we actually know.
In any case - if I was going to worship some invisible super being - I would want one with the foresight to at least write it the same for everyone and know what language I would be speaking.
The fact that I understand where the words in your book really came from - and you could too if you wanted - means I cannot accept anything you say other than note that the only reason you seem to believe there is a god is to make yourself feel better. The rest unfortunately makes absolutely no sense at all.
The one thing that separates us from most (not all) animals seems to be an awareness of our own mortality. We know we exist, we know we are alive and we know we are going to die.
And you are really missing out by not exploring some of the possibilities and capabilities I mentioned in my last post, because I have grown as a person by experiencing some of these things and learned a lot about myself and human nature - and you could also. But - your choice.
Ok, Adult discussion time here;
I know what you are saying Mark, and I honestly test myself. That’s why I think I get looks from other Believers who do not.
I do ask myself why am I doing this?
Like this Koran burning crap and all of this Mosque hype, it destroys us, eats us up. I honestly agree.
I ask God to prove it, prayer, and in truth I do not get real answers, and so I read and I guess...that’s why I think it’s an answer, its subliminal through the re-enforcement of the words that come out of the page.
The Conscience is there, I do discern your meaning, and no not a fairy tail.
and I am not blind I do see the animals and some behavior that I ask myself is that basic, or more like a human. Elephants like Earnest pointed out, sometimes in my own Terrier. But the behavior appears not Human like to me, similar but not thought like human thought, but it may well be I have no way to know, or see it.
The Darwin theory though I just cannot get my head around it. To say you are here so it happened? There just has to me more than that, I agree watching animals you see the basics. And as we talk I am beginning to re-recognize those in humans to, especially around here, neighbors and such.
The People at the church I used to go to told me I was luke warm? Pastor told me I was way too deep I just have to accept it, that’s all.. I believe something is holding this all together, I just do not know how, so I search.
and In truth as I study more on this, and other subjects I am finding there is no found tie to bring it together, no real visible link. I choose because of my conditioning, yes. And it has been strong conditioning, very now that I look on it.
I have many interests and I have here in Nashville joined an Eastern class working on yoga and conditioning, and what you are saying is true, I have found some self controls, that’s why I got into this discussion, where normally I would not have. The Tai-Chi (spelling sorry) is excellent and an example of what you are saying. But again, just starting.
I do not hold it well, and loose the control, it is off and on. But I have noticed when I am painting, (my art work) I can go to that relaxed position, involved in the story on that canvas...I can control that well. So yes, I have internal controls and I can exercise them and use them. I am not strong at it. But I have never consciously practiced it.
I am semi-retired, classes, my Art work, my interests, writing, my hang-over from world travel along with other folks have opened me up much. I have been fortunate to have the funds to retire early.
and in truth Adult to Adult...the Older I am getting the more I do see the un-answered questions, some hard to admit to.
I am not closing down to anything, your making me think here, a lot actually.
But that process of re-affirmation does happen.
Thanks for the honest response. I am glad you are looking, because there are some very interesting things to learn - both about yourself and human nature.
Your argument is basically the same though. You "cannot get your head around," proven scientific facts and the theories that rationally explain those facts because you already have the easy answer pounded into your head which contradicts it.
And you were the one that pounded it in - under the guidance of the self perpetuating belief system you were indoctrinated into at young age by the culture you were born into.
It takes work to remove this indoctrination and it means actually facing a number of deep rooted fears and taking a close look at yourself, which is what the monotheistic religions teach you not to do.
I am trying Mark. your right about the culture, catholic Schools ,New England (60's kid) Fransiscan brothers, all of it, then off to Vietnam and it fell appart there. Later I Got talked into Baptist beliefe, and now it falls appart also. So yes, overcomming.
Once you release yourself from the notion that "there must be more than that..." you'll get your head around a great many more theories than just the origin of species. It is this notion of purpose and higher levels of existence that drives the religious mindset to seek those divine answers rather than just entertain what's going on in the world around them.
I do see your point Beelzdad, I am studding on the side of my Archeology studies, Darwin, looking into his reasoning, he has it laid out fairly clear.
I must agree it is very possible, and probable. Hawking, who did not make any sense to me at first, I can see through the physics he proposes that mater can indeed form free of interferences. many possibilities I am starting to believe.
If you look at it that way, I can see where the Big bang becomes lesser of a reason. Matter moving can accelerate other matter because an electron can only come so close to its base before charged repulsion happens, otherwise they would collide, and explode, and if that happened, well the entire universe disappears, because every particle would eventually collapse and collide and thus no existence possible because no growth would be possible. So it is not happening. Thus movement happens naturally not necessarily assisted by a Big bang. Stars are forming new.
I am over simplifying it here, but it is possible. Guess I need to retract off my posts and write as I really know it.
I am beginning to see things now.
MAN! a side line here, just saw the news, some Idiot preacher in Clarksville Tenn. did in fact Burn a Koran today! Channel 4 News here in Nashville announced it but said they would show no pictures of it. They said that there were many Service-Men's wives from Fort Campbell protesting across the street.
This is tearing us apart, this crap, Mark is right, we need to get well, heal ourselves. This is sad, death by Religious charge, all self induced.
I do believe in God earnest, Congrats BTW for your 100 hubs, now 102!
I'd say it was the reverse, the sub conscious comes to understand there must be something else, for it recognises that something is missing.
Some folk fill the hole with God, some with Self.
Who's afraid of dying? - granted most folk are afraid of dying slowly and in pain, but apart from we westerners, who have elevated life to an art form, the rest of the world seem to view death as a part of life.
The value of life where I am currently is much less than in the 'western' societies, not just is general terms, but also in personal terms.
Just the other day I saw an Indonesian 'maid' walking on a two foot wide ledge cleaning her 'owners' windows seven floors up.
No safety harness.
Despite calling to her to climb back to safety, she ignored us, more afraid of losing her US$150 per month 'wage' which she would be sending back home to support her family, than losing her life.
Fight or flight is an instinct given by God to preserve us, however it can be overridden, like all the things God gave us, in order to conform to the world and survive fiscally.
Knowing about 9/11, how many folk would NOW refuse to work in high rise offices?
I can agree that there are many folk, religious or not, who have no understanding of their minds, which is the way our 'society' has conditioned folk, because thinking folk are dangerous to the elite who control the world, however it is too broad a generalisation to suggest that purely having a relationship with God equates to not understanding your mind.
Dutchman stated that repetition creates a God image in the mind, and I agree there also, for that is why God gave us His word, to allow us to instil His ways into our thinking, and escape the false doctrines of self knowledge.
Scripture states that in these end times, folk will increase their knowledge without reaching understanding, a fact well borne out by many we meet.
Speaking personally I started asking WHY about everything when I was about 11 years old, I spent 30 or more years examining every aspect of my life and my thinking, and persuading as many others as I could to also 'THINK WHY' rather than 'WHY THINK' (the worlds mantra) but to little avail, for most desire to live in ignorance, and retain bliss in their ignorance.
Finally after almost 40 years of rebellion, I recognised that God was wanting to have a relationship with me, so I started out to establish what that involved, and read the handbook to see for myself.
I swiftly realised that I had no handbook to define my 'relationship' with the world.... Satan never tells us what the rules are, indeed his mantra is 'do as you will is the extent of the law' - which is kinda loose to say the least!
Eighteen months later I started that relationship,and have learned more understanding in the last 18 years than I managed in the previous 40.
To quote Forrest Gump again... "An that's all I've got to say on the matter"
I have no doubt there is God. I have had too many experiences in my own life affirming God that I cannot attribute to chance or superstitions. That said, I am certain mankind has tainted what was sacred into something now called religion.
Those who take anything to an extreme become zealots, it is not limited to those of a faith. I think evangelicals are not always zealots. Evangelicals are those who are very motivated to share something they found to be good with everyone. The big difference to me is that zealots are motivated by fear where as evangelicals are wanting to give.
I am sure there are also some who gravitate to God to deal with their fear of dying, but there are many other beliefs people hold to insulate them from the fear of dying as well. Personally I am not afraid of dying, I hold to my faith to live my best everyday.
I think the fundemental problem is in the way missionaries and preachers talked to us about God -
" He does miracles" . " He will cure your disease". " If you want to be successful, pray to God"...........
Many people understand God as a magician, making somethings out of nothing, or someone who cures diseases without operations. In addition to all these you can see all the crazy things going on in this world in the name of God.
If you really thought about life, you can understand that there should be a intellegence behind all these. Just look around and see the dynamic equilibrium of the nature. You disturb it, you will see the consequence. More over, In earlier days, scientists thought the proteins in our cell can function independently, things can evolve. Now scientists are convinced that if we want to understand the function we have to understand the system, not its individual components. Can you show me a single experiment where scientists could create a cell or atleast prove evolution of life starting from molecular level or atomic level?
It is difficult to explain everything. But my best suggestion for those who don't believe in God is to challenge it. If you are looking for the best opponent to challenge, try catholic church (atleast few nations or even organizations are as old as catholic church). So read about it, challenge it with an open mind. I think this is the best way to start.
every body wants some one to prove there is a God.
If you want proof then read the Bible, go to church and seek him.
I found Him, and I know God is real, I have seen His power and love.
If you want proof, seek Him!!
Bibles are just books and churches are just buildings, all man made. No proof at all.
Beelzedad, are you afraid to seek the truth, sound like you want to deny, without seeking for the truth
see talking metaphor in a beta consciousness forums usually gets nowhere.
You have belief, nothing more. No science or even empirical evidence to support your belief as far as I know.
Where does that belief reside? In your mind, the only place any belief can come from.
Because you have faith, does that make it true?
The Taliban have plenty of this type of "faith" as well.
earnestshub, if you want proof that God exist, then go to church and seek the truth,
Not a likely place to find truth in my view. Just false belief.
No, not afraid, I have been to church before, I even have a few friends who are clergymen.
They all admit to giving up believing years ago!
Lots of church leaders seem to be there for other reasons than belief.
I think that many students while attending seminary are only filling in the "correct" answers on their test papers so they can graduate and be assigned a church (Job).
When no one is allowed to ask the tough questions, Doctrines will remain flawed. And as time passes these questions get lost in a fog.
Collecting a paycheck is a big priority these days. They've grown accustomed to sleeping indoors. And it's no odd thing that most people find their employer less than ethical these days, but feel trapped in their jobs and continue on anyway. It simply becomes a business deal. As employees, we tow the line, and employers pay us. For some of us, there is too much to lose after giving our all. We can't just walk away. So we talk the talk, despite our hearts being elsewhere.
I think that's the root of a lot of these kinds of situations.
That sound about right. According to my friends they have many members in their churches like that. Many unemployable anywhere else.
My friends are there for good reasons (otherwise they would not still be friends.)
One runs a kids home that looks after a lot of kids which he donates his love to.
Another "Father John" runs an inner city church for street kids. He is getting old now, but he still has the respect of all the kids.
He can out cuss em for starters!
We have quite a few good church people in my city I reckon.
Churches may do some good by fostering good lip service to charitable works and causes. But it's the people who make it work. And thankfully, there are as many non-religious people doing good works as there are religious people doing them.
Funny how that balance is always there.
I thought your long post was very sensible and straightforward. It contributed to the conversation well.
Thanks, earnest. I also enjoy reading your thoughts on these subjects. You seem to be very clear minded and rational, which over the years, I've come to greatly appreciate.
I understand why people believe the way you do,there are a lot of churches that has gotten away from the word, they are seeking money, fame or something other than getting closer to God, but as I have said many times there are bad seeds every where, and no one is perfect
I guess you may have read my hub on god, I only have one.
I spent many recent years associated with a church where my son was a chorister working for his scholarship.
Fabulous people, they never spoke of religion to me or my son, they worked as an organisation getting people involved in helping others, so I have nothing but praise for their efforts to support the poor.
Individual churches do a lot of good, as do good corporations, clubs and organisations everywhere.
I see no reason to attribute good works to anything other than people in general.
Religious belief to me is just plain silly.
Interesting Earnest, here in the US, this area, they teach that works do not get you there!...they say it is, and it is a source for a hugh argument, that it is Beliefe. Others argue it is the Baptisim, all different versions and they get really down and passionate and some what insulting about it.
almost to fist- fights. Have seen Pastors do it! ....Amazing to watch it...
I'm technically Atheist, but I know for a fact people are more sure about God than anything else. You would have to find open people that believe in God, but doesn't have a religion.
Lately I am beginning to understand there might be some type of creator, but heaven and the devil in hell.. well thats not my cup of tea at all.
Interesting ... I differentiate between an evangelist and a zealot, so I will confine my response to zealots:
I've believed that they have no understanding of God so they have to "deal with their fear by trying to project it on to others."
I will agree that much of the offensiveness comes from a lack of understanding.
Specifically I believe it comes from a desire to prove themselves right and everybody else wrong (a sin I have certainly been guilty of myself more times than not) rather than a desire to please God.
Hypocrisy, which is what I believe you correctly observe, has been a problem for a very, very long time. There is much more harm done by people who claim to believe and act like they don't, than people who don't believe.
In admonishing against systemic hypocrisy Paul wrote:
"For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles (unbelievers) through you, as it is written."
You're wrong. I'd say an overwhelming majority of people on the planet believe in God that's at least 5 billion people.
I don't think the fear of death is the reason for religion. There was an interesting piece on NPR about evolution and the role that religion played in the survival and prosperity of the Human species. If fear of death was such an overriding concern, no one would engage in any risky behaviour and especially not wars.
Nonsense. Fear of death is the reason for a belief in god; Controlling the sheeple is the reason for religion.
LOL at you evidence from NPR. 4.5 billion years to get here and 10,000 years of irrational beliefs is the reason they survive?
Not understanding your argument about half the planet thinking there is a god.
This some how means that Mcdonalds serve the best food because a lot of peopel eat it?
If you bothered to go to the NPR site and perhaps look into the findings you might think differently. Of course you're entitled to your opinion but you've offered nothing to support your view besides your (LOL) which I guess was designed to ridicule my post.
And yes if a lot of people eat McDonald's, that is a vote that they serve good food, just because you or I don't eat it doesn't mean it's bad, at least many people don't think so.
LOL OK - McDonalds serves good food. Thanks. LOL
Sadly so do some of mine habee!
I also like the salad.
I think McDonnalds is a plot put here by Insurance companies to insure we can not qualify for long term life and all have pre-exhisting conditions!...
The advertising still works.
Advertising seems to follow the idea's of Cecil B who said "You will never go broke underestimating the taste of the general public!
they are fighting the food police here to stop menu changes, because they don't want the calary count to be printed; seems they dont have enough room on the wrappers for all the zeros after the 1.... p
1,0000000000000000XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX...........calories per serving for only 99 cents on dollar menu!
I don't know where you live but McDonalds where I live has almost nothing in it except fat and sugar.
It's bad alright!
Fat and sugar...aren't those two of the four major food groups, along with salt and caffeine??
No, there are five families. You're leaving out the BREAD family.
There is fat and sugar in a lot of food, it's just that with Mc Donalds it is ALL fat and sugar with little other food value. It makes me ill just thinking about it.
I didn't say it wasn't good for you! What I said is millions of people every day vote for the quality and taste of the food with there wallets. Of course millions of people isn't everybody but it's a strong testament to the job McDonalds does.
No it's not!
It's a testament to advertising and promotion of a franchise.
Whatever. If that was true no one would ever go back, which by the way is the same for worship.
there is no knowledge in the subconscious mind, just programs.
We all sense something out there connects us to our world and the people around us. We sometimes call it G-d. We sometimes call it higher self or the universe. I think we believe that there is something fishy about the god that is being presented in religions and also that there is something to it not quite completely understood and that is why we constantly talk about it.
And by we, I mean just me.
Thousands of archetypal dreams pointing to real self would indicate that these "programs" can run a complete process of avoidance that is mathematically mind boggling and convoluted.
Many case histories from psychology make this clear.
The capacity of those programs is truly awesome.
They can produce the most mind numbingly stupid explanations for avoidance concluding such beliefs as the Taliban use to run their psychotic agenda.
earnest I believe YGM
ps hows the flu? Did you get a flu shot before? So don't believe in thse
with a friends kiss
Hey Earnest, Saturday here in Nashville, just came out of our Vandy research Lab this afternoon, and another interesting dead end. I just had to tell you honestly, we found some more truth....man!
We carbon dated for two of the researchers, who are back from over there. Some dig pieces out of Yemen, supposedly of Queen Bathsheba's era artifacts...no truth to it, very disappointing, and expected they said. Would only carbon date back to 1500's, and nothing tying into Old testament as was told, just writings on a page claiming her authorship of lineage...All the who begat whom stuff not holding up. More and more we are finding dead ends...In fact of this we did today, with the Guys from SMU. If this is indeed hers, there is proof, whom ever this was, worshiped the moon God !...lol
I was also surprised that, one of the researchers showed me this, that the Koran references her as the Southern Queen! as in Revelation also? and she is not the evil sorceress portrayed. In fact she was a victim of the beginnings of Polio. The thing about the cloven hoof is also false, it was a club-foot, malformations at birth it looks like. More evidence to prove Solomon's' story not true.
I am beginning to think more and more now you are correct, and your friends who are Clergy may have it right. I have permission to use some photos and Hub some of this now, so I intend to put up some of this as it may have interest, I do not know. Anyway it was a Fun day here. thought you might be interested.
I am interested. Whenever someone has learnt how to learn it interests me.
It's all explainable without resorting to invisible entities.
Or "the truth shall set you free" as far as scientific knowledge goes!
Exactly. Science knows a massive amount about life, the human mind, evolution, the universe, medicine and insanity.
Insanity is thinking fantasy is reality and science doesn't understand anything.
Randy. The Truth will set a believer free. And by the way, the Truth has no part of science EXCEPT the fact that it created science.
Earnest. I agree, the science of today has learned a lot about all that you mentioned. And ain't it wonderful. We've come a long way baby. It amazes me to no end about what we will learn next. However, insanity is not as you describe it. Insanity, is thinking for a brief second that "science" created it. Hey, if it did, it wouldnt have to understand it. It would KNOW it.
Hey, dont laugh. You gave me this junk and it is clouding my mind.
What stuff? Your virtual flu. Talk about secret weapons. You dirty rotten?????
Well I will laugh! Actually or jokingly blaming me for passing on a virtual flu is a bit suspect psychologically doncha think?
I am now virtually well, if you are enquiring as to my health.
I hope you feel better soon.
its amazing what a little white lightening and a wool blanket can do.
Yeah, I can breathe now. Maybe thats a good thing, maybe it aint.
Am glad to hear you are recovering. Cheers.
I think that if atheists had a church the pastor would be preaching the exact words you said. That is your doctrine which is fine. Christians have a different take on life as do the Muslims.
I do believe in God. Whatever form does not matter. To me what's important is acknowledging a higher power than the self. Nature is a popular subject that people like to place faith in. That's fine as long as you subject yourself beneath that entire power, that is, in a position to constantly learn from it.
How then would you explain away all the information and empirical evidence accumulated since the first successful use of the galvanic probe.
Carl Jung alone covers acres of it.
You would suggest that the old guy who killed himself through his son dunnit story works? Good for you.
Evidence is interpretation as I've explained in the other thread. You cannot prove there is no God. It's not possible because any "evidence" brought forth can and is explained by the faithful - again as explained in the other thread. I cannot prove that the Vatican is real as I've never been there but I believe it is given the evidence that I've interpreted. I can't prove the existence of God according to the satisfaction of an atheist but I believe he exists according to the evidence I've interpreted.
lol...No bias there Earnest? I liked your honest and respectful post Golden
I believe !
But, off topic for a moment, it's a girl. Came 9 days late, and she is gorgeous!
It's a weird feeling. Kinda like when my girls were born, only not quite the same.
One day before my birthday, and 2 days after father's day.
Did I say
you can ask to people who had death experience. many of them have spiritual experience that make them more religious. So believe or not is not necessary because we will know it after die. Most important think is we should have good attitude to serve human beings.
Thank you for your thoughts on this kulonuwun. I agree how we treat people is very important.
It is best if we treat people well habitually as a part of our daily lives I believe.
When peoples bodies are suffering from a huge chemical imbalance they feel different, really?
Thank God (to use the phrase) for the internet and other technology.
I can get updates daily. Sydney's a bit far to just drop in for a quick visit.
Oh, and Thank God (to use the phrase, again) for Virgin for low airfares, too.
Yes i do believe, i dont belong to any religion as i struggle to trust man's interpretation of God. But the true essence of God resides in believing, love, hope etc. I had a conversation once with an old employer regarding a dying elaphant in a documemtry, as the elaphant lay dying another stood over it, warding off a pack of lions. Only when the dying elaphant gasped its last breath and its soul/essence was free from pain, the other then walked away. I strongly believed in the essence of what i saw, a consience of love and grief. That invisable perspective that one can see if they really believe. My employer disagreed, they are just animals and dont feel these emotions. Well something to that effect. Just a romantic notion? Well I love the insight i recieve from believing, to me God is real and i will always endeavour to find God.
Why is it that peopel who claim not to follow religion because they do not trust man's interpretation of god immediately feel the need to then explain what god actually means?
And - no offense intended - but how can this invisible entity only reside in the things you have decided are good?
Why does it not reside in doubt, hate and low expectations?
It simply does not make any sense that this invisible entity only resides in things humans think are good.
This is why I agree with Ernest that belief in a god is a psychological device to avoid reality.
Nobody actually believes it - neither do they believe it is all about love, hope, peace etc - if they did - the world would not be as it is.
Mark, there is good in the world, and there is bad in the world. God, Creator, Higher Power whichever label you choose, to many represent the good.
doubt, hate and low expectations, would be in the satan, lucifer, devil.
Mark, doubt, disbelief and man is the main reason the world is as it is.
Your reasoning is completely nonsensical and basically agrees with my point that it does not make any sense for a god to only be half the equation. No matter how you cut it - this invisible super being of yours must be all of the equation. Your book even sez it, but I expect you have not actually read it.
A sneaky attack on those of use who doubt its existence as being the reason the world is the way it is is just typical of your belief system, because you have a misguided opinion of your own worth compared to others.
Man is indeed the reason the world is the way it is in a lot of cases, no question. So - no invisible super being involved.
With all the writings you have posted, Mark, I know that you know how to read between the lines. I did not think I would have to go into great detail in explaining my response.
Mark, my opinion of my own self worth, well, I am but a lowly being. I have read the book. I admit, I don't know it word for word. But I am not ashamed of that. The book, as you call it, has been written and rewritten several times. I take a lot of it to be the opinion of someone else.
I do not try to push my beliefs on anyone. When I post something or respond to a post, I am not defending my belief, just explaining it.
Mark, I've read several times on these post of the starving. That is sad, and I am glad to see that we agree on at least one thing.
Mark, the book, as you call it, says to test those things to prove them true or false.
Are you up to a challenge? Before you answer, I warn you, it will take some of your time, and complete honesty. Not to me, but to yourself. Just let me know.
The rites of highly intelligent animals such as elephants adds nothing to this discussion that I can see.
Your beliefs about what you saw are a normal emotional response to the recognition by you that Elephants do grieve. As does all sentient life.
Since God is the Good,
For it can only be good at the beginning and good at the end.
But if you do not know how then can you believe?
If you believe how then you do not know?
Yes, Ernest. It's not a "belief" it's a solid knowledge down to the core of my being. I believe God exists more than I believe you or I exist. And jokes aside, I'm pretty doggone sure of both of those. (Just don't leave Australia, OK? LOL)
I don't need convincing nor do I need to convince. If I am wrong. So be it. If I am right. So be it.
Well that is pretty certain.
And what do you say about my certainty?
Care to discuss where this certainty lives and what supports it?
The brain no doubt. Of course, I'm certain God created the brain.
I prefer to have these types of discussions face to face around a campfire drinking single barrel jack and smoking damn fine cigars. I think you and I would enjoy that.
I would feel no "victory" in convincing you that I'm right ... so I have no motivation to try. Do I believe God wants you "saved" and a "Christian"? ... probably ... but I've never known anybody who was argued into becoming a Christian who stayed that way long term. When I was much younger, one of our friends became a Christian because because of social pressure ... I regret that to this day, it did not go well over the years.
If you converted because of some brilliant argument I accidentally made (trust me, if I could make them on purpose I would) and not because of a real encounter with God that you could not doubt then I would be responsible for the creation of another hypocrite.
If God is not real to you, it's up to Him to convince you He's real, not me. If He does not, well then He doesn't.
It's not an intellectual exercise for me. It is simply reality. Any experience I have had that I would share with you, no doubt would get a perfectly logical alternative explanation .... especially here online, where we are only seeing textual representation of our thoughts. Around a fire with cigars and whiskey, it's much harder to bullshit each other.
If I come to Australia, though, I will let you know.
Belief in a god is belief.
Belief has severe limitations as proof.
Otherwise we would all be admiring terrorists because they believe in "god" completely to the point of a self imposed premature death.
Any event, secular or sacred, natural or supernatural, real or illusory is interpreted correctly or incorrectly by the observer.
I have no desire to interpret your observations for you, nor a desire for you to interpret mine.
I've spent too much time as an expert witness in court proving what I know I could prove only to have someone disbelieve it because of a crock of crap that someone else presented as proof. Two experts. One I know to be telling the truth, because it's me and another I know to be lying because I also examined the evidence.
Proof is nothing more than a specific belief in the interpretation of a specific observation.
god is always right in front of us, the problem is everyone is looking backward at their own past, the slime of the serpent keeps everyone occupied. Force your eyes open and you will find yourself wide awake....then you will see god.
I believe in God. Even in my past when I was too busy to pray or read the Bible. or even to think of him. Too many times of "beating the odds" for it to have been anything but God's hand in my life.
Then I had to make a decision, and I realized that every time I based a decision on what I wanted, it failed. If I wanted to make the right decision I would have to base it on God's will. It was then that I started studying God's word. It was then that I started experiencing God.
Once I started experiencing God's love, felt his love pour over me, I knew with out a doubt he is real.
God must be very busy with helping you "beat the odds" to take time to offer a morsel of food to others. Sad, really.
You have had this particular 'bleat' of your explained dozens of times, change the record or get busy in Africa feeding the starving millions, like many Christian organisations already do.
Don't like religion, volunteer for a UN mission to the hungry, they will take you, if you will go?
Will you go?
You could even write your second hub about it.
Does anyone really believe in god?
It is beyond any singular person to maintain a 100% belief in a god. Those who claim it are liars, because it's been proven human nature cannot be over-ridden.
As for those who claim "there must be something else", just goes to show how little they truly understand the human body and themselves. Thus, lost sheep wandering the country-side.
It is not fear of death that causes people to try to believe in a god, it is fear of living within the confines of themselves. They fear the "sense of life" - the true power within themselves and what they are capable of.
No religious folk would fear death, because they have already made the selfish belief that their own personal god is going to save them or their soul. These people actually believe they have a soul or spirit, when in fact, the soul or spirit of a person is not a form of energy within themselves, but in their actions during their life. The understanding of "soul" and "spirit" have been construed by religious scripture, so people have to look for external guidance instead of guiding themselves responsibly.
Actually, they do have a salad that I like. I think it's mandarin chicken??
I need to add my name to the list.
Don't want someone else painting a picture for me as to what he looks like though.
Life teaches that you cannot have conscientiousness without existence. Now conscientiousness is very powerful for all things are created from it. Everything around you was an idea (or thought) at one time before it existed. Whether it be a table, a chair, or other artifact. You, yourself - can create nothing without being conscientious of it first.
With that said...are we the gods who created our world and all in it or were we a thought at one time?
As far as religions go, show me the god who created a religion and I will show you the man who started it. With all our knowledge of our history, there is no physical evidence of any god.
Faith like hope is good but it is an action-less prayer of a desired outcome.
That's my thought (short of it) on the subject.
I thought that fruit yeast and sugar was the four food groups
I hope we can have some more discussion here rather than goddunnit.
I would love to see the points of the original post properly addressed, thanks everyone.
i do. he is everything.
the subconscious mind is one of our deeper connections to god.
objective proof isn't going to change anyone's opinion on such a deep and controversial topic. reality is a subjective experience. i have had experiential proof for myself to bring me to the conclusion i am at. that, and it just makes the most sense to me. god is not a separate entity that created all of this. he is all of this, experiencing all of this. in order for the Light to be able to share it's diving beauty it formed a vessel meant to receive. the first cause and effect. they aren't two separate things, just different parts of the same thing. the initial building blocks for duality, which is what our whole physical reality is based upon.
quantum physics has led to the conclusion that we are all indeed connected through a universal life energy composed of pure potential. although string theory is indeed still a theory, it is the only conept that really logically explains reality. evolution is indeed a theory, but one would be denying the obvious to say it is false.
but quantum physicist have proven that subatomic particles react differently when being observed as compared to not. our intention effects their outcome. therefore by staring at the world so objectively you are severely limiting yourself. i hope i explained myself clearly. thank you for listening and thank you for the smiley face! i like those.
"in order for the Light to be able to share it's diving beauty it formed a vessel meant to receive"
I liked this thought very much.The mind is magnificent!
Your point about particles behaving differently when being observed seems valid. Good points.
Neither point leads me to believe in the crazed psychopath of formal religion as the source of life though.
and about the fear of dying part, i only have that in an egotistical sense, as in my physical body is indeed attached to the physical desires and comforts of this physical universe. i have an understanding and acceptance that death is just a necessary next step in my, and everyone else's, spiritual paths. we all live to die, and then we move on. perhaps we come back here, perhaps we move onto a higher spiritual plane composed of less dense vibrations than the reality we are subjected to right now. i do know we aren't going to "heaven" or "hell". there are literal fiery pits or golden mansions in our future.
I'm pleased to know you overcame and gained strength from your past. That makes you what psychiatrists are fond of calling a survivor. Not everyone survives though do they?
As for death.
I think death is the loss of consciousness. My consciousness and everyone else's as well.
If I were to use the same approach to truth as religionists I would say it is already a certainty that we can halt death within 10 years.
In truth it could take 20 years. Two Australian scientists completed a 9 year project culminating in opening that door 2 years ago.
They described their discovery as like opening the door of a dark room and turning on the light.
They can now see what's inside, and it is one massive task to take this new knowledge to the next step.
The thing is, it is heaps of number crunching and computers are becoming extraordinarily fast, pulling research and development times back by years.
i am not a follower of formal religion either. all spiritual beliefs are paths to the same destination and formal religions are just old maps made long ago stll available for our use. some directions within them are very helpful and still valid and have obviously worked for others, but other parts of the map are very outdated. i am currently making my own map and constantly fumbling around through the dark trying to find my way.
i agree with you on how crazy fundamentalists are. i had to go to a christian private school when i was little so i experienced first hand how damaging their perversion of a wonderful belief system can be damaging to the mind and inhibit one's evolution. fundamentalist evangelicals can lick my balls!
I'm sorry you had that experience unfortunately there are many others who have suffered the same.
During my time in business I hired two kids who had been abused by priests. Both were on the streets at night getting into trouble. Very angry kids!
With a lot of help from their friends and workmates eventually they both did very well I am pleased to say. I hope you did too!
thank you! i am doing very well indeed. i completely value the experience. i wouldn't be where i am today if it wasn't for my past. no regrets, you know.
and that's terrible. it is so sad that a system that is meant to be based around love, acceptance, and forgiveness spreads so much negativity.
"I don't try to reconcile anything, said the poet at eighty, it's a damn strange world." John Berryman
As shallow as this may sound, I believe in what I experience and see. But there are clues to things which I cannot see. Religionists call this "faith." I call it deduction based on correct information.
I don't believe in God as is taught be religionists. That's not my experience. So I'm very hesitant to say I believe in God. I do think that we are a part of something grander and bigger than we can presently understand, because that is also my experience. There are very odd anomalies that some (perhaps most of us) can't really explain. Things that happen serendipitously, as if the universe all aligned in our behalf. They are called miracles. I've experienced a few of them, but they have nothing to do with this idea of belief in a God, or "righteousness" or "deserving" or anything else. The power or force in these experiences cannot be harnessed or patterned, or controlled by any of us. They happen randomly. Some people are physically saved from terrible situations, while others die. It seems very random. Therefore has nothing to do with this "God" or being deserving, or good. Just doesn't happen the way religionists claim.
So I don't know what is out there, but when I'm alone, and I get centered and grounded, I feel love, and I can't explain why. I have no idea where it comes from, or anything else. It's just there, and for me it's enough.
And after having been through decades of horrific abuse, religious zealotism, losing all my belongings and everyone I loved twice, I'm fine with there being no God at all, because what I was taught him to be is a lie and a night terror. My experience is that the world is filled with lies and superstitions as a reason to describe the things they experience, but cannot explain rationally.
If I am a product of the universe, I can't be lost in it. Even if I just "happened" I'm still a product of this universe and its very active life. So that connection is enough for me. What I do not know about the rest will not condemn me, despite what religionists say. How can you be condemned for things you cannot know, but yet seek for answers? There is no God that would condemn such a person. If and when I'm supposed to know more, I'll know more.
Daniel Carte wrote
There is no God that would condemn such a person. If and when I'm supposed to know more, I'll know more
There is no single answer that applies to every situation.
I agree with your statement as I understand your intent.
What ever judgment that we receive will be only for how we handled that which we were given.
There is no God who would judge us more severely than our own selves. We can be in denial, run away from ourselves for a very long time, but in the end, everyone has that day of reckoning and realizing all the bad (and good) in them.
So judgment day for me, is that self reckoning process. God doesn't have to have anything to do with it.
I can not argue with that.
God doesn't have to have anything to do with it .. unless that is where we get the wisdom to self evaluate ??
I think that the problem is people trying to define God.
When asked who or what he is God didn't answer very well.
If anything is impossible for God to do it, it would be to explain to us who or what he/it is in a way that we could understand that would not be detrimental to his plan what ever that is.
Kinda like the CIA agent said;
If I told ya I'd have to kill ya. Not really but ???
It is simpler than that Jerami. The brain has some amazing connections to the subconscious processes.
It can produce a fear based hypothesis in seconds so convoluted it would make the bible look like an afternoons work by a couple of school kids just to avoid confronting primal fear of death.
I have been so intense on this study that i think I bent my vessel!....
I think...I am going to take a page from John Lennon...step back....get fresher air, and not behave like me any more....
Todays going to be a much better day me thinks....This Pirate just looked at 60!
Yes, I believe in God
As for your theory on the subconscious mind... mine is too busy suppressing thoughts of having relations on the beaches of Australia with buxom ladies to worry about theological or ecclesiastical matters
Hi mate! I have a Greek friend in Melbourne with the same psychological profile as you!
He does a crap job on the suppression side though.
You sound a little like my son, Homer. He married a whip-snap, sharp, beautiful, and wonderful woman. He is much better off for his decision, and is a much better person.
Glad you are so fortunate as to have found someone as wonderful as your wife. But the stallion still misses roaming through the herd, as we can tell....
This stallion is too busy vacuuming, mowing the lawn, washing the dishes, and looking for his testicles to worry about the other mares.
But I have to give myself credit for 'marrying beautiful'
Yep! That sounds like normal married life to me!
I used to collect beautiful wives.
Then all as it should be. You seem like a good hubby and dad. I did my share of poopy diapers, sleepless nights with sick kids so my wife could get some sleep, cooking, cleaning, scrubbing toilets of kids trying to be potty trained and a bunch of outside yard work and remodeling.
At one point I joked with my wife, after a very long, grueling spell of marital drought, "honey, can I have the dick back? I mean, it's been like AGES!!" She laughed, and said, "NO! not till those dishes are done!"
I honestly don't miss it, but I'm always very grateful to have had such a rich life.
Seems you have a baby on the way soon...or am I imagining it?
He better be good at cutting the grass... because Daddy is getting too old
In response to your post:
I don't think so. I believe that the sub-conscious mind already knows there is no god.
The flight and fight mechanism is the driving force behind the need for a god, but the mind already knows it is a self preservation mechanism the conscious mind sets up to cope with the fear of dying.
That is why you get evangelicals and zealots. They have no understanding of their mind, so they have to deal with their fear by trying to project it on to others.
What do you think and why?
The subconcious mind is a reservoir of material that was at one time concious but has been forgotten or supressed for some reason or another! I think the reason most people believe in God is because their supressed memories are from their spirit. Our spirit subconciously knows there is a higher power!
The flight or fight mechanism is instilled in all animals be it man or dog! I don't believe our belief in God has anything to do with "flight or fight" mechanism. I think it's using good logic to come up with that though! However I think the truth lies in the subconcious mind. We all subconciously know there is something greater than us. Therefore it is driven in us to believe in God! That doesn't necessarily mean everyone will.
Think about it: Admit it or not but everyone has a drive inside them to search for the truth...that there is something greater that we seek! Many search but never find, but all search!
I have explained this drive before Libby, as have Hillman Von Franz and Carl Jung himself.
Jung called it "religiosity of soul" in one of his many discourses on the subject.
This is not guess work. There are piles of empirical evidences to support it, including the "switching off" of this mechanism by using a galvanic probe wired directly to affect the synapse.
In one Jungian dream session the sub-conscious of one patient I recall reading about was able to construct overnight, an "alibi" of such mathematical complexity that it almost defied description, yet the patient was semi literate.
Yes, I'm familiar with their work. I did numerous term papers on both of them in college! I love psychology and enjoyed studied it in great detail. However, I don't agree with everything! Are you familiar with William James work? of the two kinds of religion? Institutional religion and personal religion? It's the difference between healthy minded religion and sick-souled religion! It does make a good comparison on the two!
Yes I have James and many others. Been reading psychology for many years.
The thing about religion is that it is a state of mind that is fear based.
Take away the fear and you take away the need for the religion.
This can be done with a small change in brain chemistry, so no intervention by an impossible omni-everything entity is required to make it all work out as a reasonable theory.
With the understanding we can already obtain the mind can recognise it's own religiosity, interpret it correctly and deal with the issues around it's fear.
It takes many years to deal with the issues, it hurts with every tiny bit of internal growth as the ego is dismantled from it's perch, and the few who try to deal with it have a long and difficult path.
It is so so much easier to do goddunnit, stop reading and growing and play the simple mind game of "devil in the corner"
btw: You realize Carl Jung was unsure if God existed or not... he claimed it was "unanswerable"!
He did say it was unanswerable. You need to read more Jung.
LOL!! Earnest you are funny! Psychology is such a interesting study! It does bring forth great wisdom!
Most Psychologists do reject religion! However there are so many areas in religion that haven't been studied!
I am very much a "psychology" guru... yet I do not agree with this direction!
I believe religion and God are two different things! Religion today is somewhat skewed! Most of it is tainted with sin and corruption within it's own organizations! There are some good people within religion though!
Religion is a good thing and "healthy" as James said if it is done with love and charity for other people!
People do good things in and outside of religious organisations Libby.
What I am discussing is the evidence that we already have about the sub-conscious solution to an unconscious process.
We don't need more god fantasy, we need more awareness of self through the process of individuation. Mark Knowles offers some good paths to begin with above.
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD. I KNOW GOD. TO KNOW GOD IS TO BE LOVE BE PEACE BE FREE. SIMPLE ENOUGH? IT IS FOR ME. Go in peace.
An interesting mental exercise is to imagine you were born in the desert tribes in Afghanistan to a strict Muslim family instead of being born in a Christian country to a strict christian family.
Would you be able to see that you would possibly be cutting the limbs off people who "sinned"
Or do you want us to believe that you would be a devout christian in your devout muslim family still, in which case you would be a terrorist and probably killed in the war against christians if not by your own family.
See it gets very silly once you attempt to bring any form of thinking to the matter.
There's no way you could believe in Christianity and be born into a strict Muslim family! Your beliefs would be Muslim and everything within their belief system would feel right to you because you were raised that way!
However, God loves those people too! And he said in his word that every man would hear the truth and have a chance! They will hear the gospel somewhere and some will listen and others wont!
I agree it is very difficult on someone born and raised in that culture! They have disadvantages from birth in every way possible! It's really sad!
I am thankful I was born in American where I have a freedom to chose! As do you! If you were born there Earnest your choices would be limited too. You would either be Muslim or face death!
I understand your exercise here and I know I've went a little away from it! I apologize for that!
I am not thankful to a god for being born in the right place. Why should there be a wrong place if that is the case!
There is nothing special about me, I am one more person.
I would gladly settle for much less to see an end to the suffering.
What gives you or I more right to life than the poor and desolate in the eyes of anyone? A god?
That would be a psychotic god then wouldn't it?
I don't attribute my good fortune to a god.
Too much world hunger for me to believe that. I am lucky because of where I was born and I know it.
A very honest and realistic way of looking at things, Earnest! What do the hungry of the world owe their misery to? Surely not a powerful being who has nothing better to do than watch his creations suffer!
It is easy for the comfortable to feel blessed, but the miserable have a tougher time appreciating their plight! No, I refuse to admire any deity for this supposed creation! And I can't imagine any of the gods taking credit for it either!
I still want to know how the christian born into a Muslim family idea works out, but I guess it's too hard to answer eh?
I know GOD through my own life experience of being love being peace being free. This does not happen overnight as it is a growing process on this planet earth. As far as the christian born in a muslim family works out this is the answer. The core of every person that is born on the earth is love peace free. This operates automatically in every person no matter what religion you are brought in to. The heavens declare the GLORY OF GOD and everything around you functions out of the principle of love peace free. Wisdom comes into play how to deal with people who do not choose to live this way. JESUS CHRIST was once faced with a mob that wanted to grab him and throw him over a cliff but the love peace free that JESUS was living every moment of every day was so overwhelming to the mob that JESUS just walked right through the midst of them and not one person laid a hand on him to throw him over the cliff at the edge of the city. YOU have to live from your being like this and not fear hate envy etc... this will produce in your life, a different result in your life automatically by this choose and love peace free will produce another result. You need to have wisdom every moment of every day in how to live your life on the earth.
Great topic, yes. Definitely believe. Like Jung I believe there is an ancient collective 'unconsciousness' that knows beyond any doubt that there is God, but (un)conscious where things get buried and forgotten. Mostly things that are stressful. Believing can be stressful (just ask those believers who still follow laws rather than grace).
-Believing leads to questioning (is this real?);
-Questioning to doubting (no way?)
-Doubting to conviction and/or guilt (If true, I cant measure up any way!),
....which leads in two directions either
DOOR A: Faith(Consciousness is opened & 'proof' comes in - don't have to measure up! the works been done!)
DOOR 1: Cynicism (or logical extremes)impossible for 'proof' to exist (forget this! I'm outta here!)
Soooo.... all this to say:
Yes, Believe, Yes Provable definitely *BUT* only for those who choose door 'A'
What Jung knows from his empirical evidence is that there is NO GOD.
[Doc, I think I had a heart attack... "really, what EVIDENCE beyond your subjective 'feelings' do you have? I dont see one, show me, then I'll confirm it with REAL science"]
Any great scientist (and philosoPHIZER) worth their NA will tell you Emperical & Experiential - Objective & Subjective is balanced Proof for topics of THIS NATURE (key point)it is experienced as well as researched or we're just riding someone elses coat tails= flawed.
(I know this isn't an online Jung-festival BUT note the reasons & info found in his creepy Redbook!!! Eye opening!)
This is such an easy question to answer.
Yes, I believe in God.
Having read some of what preceeded on this page please allow me to posit the following.
Belief in God is about faith. Faith, by it's very definition is for something that science and facts can not nor ever will prove. Faith comes from within. It is a feeling, an all pervasive knowledge that defies the five senses.
Science and the need to prove any and everything is becoming, or has become, the new religion. I find this so very sad. I'm not saying it does not have its place and has not helped humanity in some ways but at what cost?
Science can't prove how the pyramids were built yet they exist.
Science can't explain how some people are miraculously cured of cancer yet it admits that they are.
Science can't explain how some people know beyond any shadow of doubt when their loved ones, many miles away, are hurt, but it happens daily.
Science is a tool. It is not all mighty or all knowing neither omnicent nor omnipresent. (sp)
To me, God is so much more than a crutch or a warm fuzzy to ally fears of death. I know this question has spurned debates for centuries and will continue to do so but consider this...
When people are confronted w/ the instant of death, not the idea or the you only have one week, but the very instant, do most pray to God or look to science?
Sure, your imagination and the beliefs you hold are within your mind, science studies that too.
Yet, here you are with a computer and internet connection, not to mention the many other things science has provided you which you fully take advantage of every day of your life.
Ignorance is the cost.
Yes, it can. That has already been accomplished. You should do your homework before making these types of comments.
Science does not admit miracles. Again, do your homework.
Provide documented examples and compare them to probabilities of guesswork and you'll have your answer.
But, science does more for you than anything else. If you hate science so much, why aren't living in a cave?
How is anyone supposed to know that answer?
Direct quote copied and pasted from above ...
" I'm not saying it does not have its place and has not helped humanity in some ways but at what cost? "'
I do not hate science nor did I say that I did. I stated that science has replaced religion and further I will state now that as I understand it, if science can not prove something then it will not state factually that it exists.
Please correct me if my understanding of that is wrong for this is one objection I have to the importance placed upon science.
Obviously, science has given us many kewl things, extended our lives, made things easier, more productive, taught us to critically analyse and so forth. Does the giving of these admitted great things replace, negate, or not allow for other faith based ideologies that have yet to be proven?
At one point in time science stated that spontaneous generation was possible, that the world was flat and so forth. We know now, thanks to science, that those perceptions were false. A few hundred years from now don't you think at least some of what is held as true scientifically today will be disputed? Do you totally rule out the possibility that God can exist just based on our scientific understanding of today?
It is somewhat wrong. Science doesn't prove anything, it is only a method of understanding how our world works. It didn't replace religion either as religion is still here.
Faith based ideologies have not proven anything and unlikely ever will.
No, science did not state those things at all. Science is a method, not an arbiter of absolutes.
Perhaps, but that is what science is all about, the capacity to falsify any theory. That's how we learn things.
I see no reason to entertain the myths and superstitions of the Bronze Age, scientifically or otherwise.
The fact that belief in a God can't be falsified indicates it's fantasy enough to satisfy my mind.
That and the craziness of the story itself!
A sky fairy dunnit doesn't seem very scientific.
Hey I just noticed!
Religious zealots can jump in and give me a free kickin!
I have posted 1 666 0 times!
That can't be an accident!
♫♪♫ doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee♫♪♫
♫♪♫ doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee♫♪♫
Please watch your language! This is a religious forum! There may be sensitive cult members reading this thread! ( you forgot the last do doooooooo-do-do-do-da-dat )
I done gone an git meself marked by god's little helper!!!!!!
Wed 10 am. conversed with twins. Very logical conversation, given my orders.
10.10 am. conversed with several insane people who believe the fairies run their lives and mine to.
10.11am Elicited some humour from a few of the regulars. It's all good mate!
Oh, you are causing HAVOC in these forums! I feel bad for them! Give them a break Earnie! Let the dreamers dream, and the psychics foretell the future!
Oh I really don't mind what people believe, there is nothing to be done about belief besides education.
I object strongly to them flogging it as truth though!
Dangerous to all of mankind.
Is that why we get along? Because I don't try to change people's minds?
No, I enjoy having my mind changed daily!
You are a funny person who does not try to sell fairies as facts and then suggest that I am off to the hot place.
Any proof and I am ok with changing my mind.
That is what is different about religionists. No capacity to change their mind. It's against their beliefs to be wrong!
I'm waiting... if the economy continues this bad, I might end up selling fairies!
Same here, Earnest! Sometimes it's hard to let it pass, though! Especially from certain thumpers! They absolutely ask for it! LOL!
Is that why you gave up all hope and turned to the bottle?
Randy, I am confused... I thought you had no legs, no arms, no shoulders.
I must confess, I am wereserpent! Care for an apple? It'll make you smart!
Randy, I'm fed up with the APPLES! I'm a TEACHER!
But it was good enough for Eve! (I lied about the "make you smart" stuff!)
Hahaha... For years I used to play out with bands - rock, blues bands - The first set would always go very well, but once the alcohol kicked we had a sudden urge to improvise! By the fourth set Steve Ray sounded like John Coltrane!
Dang Charlie, you're always trying to get the ladies smashed!
(does it work?)
I told you that Klara Wieck was just a pen-name.
♫♪♫ doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee♫♪♫
♫♪♫ doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee doodeedoodee♫♪♫
Ah yes, I remember her well! You can tell I had a crush on her!
Crush?! She's got you wrapped around her finger!
Appearances can be deceiving!
Alright boys! Klara's signing off... don't miss me too much and keep up the good work torturing Christians. I swear you guys are the reincarnation of Toquemada and his Inquisition Crew!
We will have another fundy visitor here soon. He has been setting bait on another thread. I guess he's back to get humiliated again.
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