As written by, and believed by- British philosopher Bertrand Russell. Who wrote the 1927 pamphlet, Why I Am Not A Christian."
"Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes....A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men."
What say you?!
well it would be easy to say, emphatically, "NO", and stop there.
ignorance, would use the word ignorance and expect positivity to follow. is that not perhaps why Christ said that "...if you so much as say, 'thou fool', you are in danger of hell fire..."?
fool, translated comes from the greek word, moronos, or in English - MORON.
No, Christianity is not a perpetuating of anti-moralism. PROBLEMATIC - Grace, as its doctrines put forth, sets out to explain that our moral stances don't save us or better us. it can lead to moral erosion, that is, if one thinks that grace is to be taken advantage of.
(caps of now)
love of thy neighbor is its (christianity's) bottom line - it implies a very liberal morality.
have you ever seen the film "good will hunting' - clever name! well, therein there is a statement in a court of law where the statement is made by matt damon's character "liberty is defined as the soul's right to breath...if laws are girded too tightly man becomes a syncope..."
the point is this - morality is plainly LAW in the best sense, but law in the purest sense is fallible because humans are fallible. Grace accommodates our failures and grants room (margins for error) to learn within the parenthesis of life.
i will be honest - men who statements like the above have never really read the bible, but have heard too many tele-evangelists - who christ would smack!
but the problem is not in christianity, rather - it is in our use of terms which have changed with time. the things that are evolving are the very things that should not and do not help us adapt - grow - become more liberated from law so as to breathe.
i drink alcohol, but many religious communities say over and over that drinking is a sign of one who is damed! but christ himself drank, otherwise - why did the pharisees call him a drunkard? the legalist community says that he drank grape juice.... but that does not follow since one cannot become drunk off of grape juice. the bible is a book of reading the logic out of it - not seeing it on the surface...one must read carefully.
and sure, we all have judged the homosexuals and whores - but christ seemed to be compassionate to them! ignorance is in the community that thinks they "KNOW there is no god".
morality is, in its highest state, in love put forth toward the "worst" of us. i understand that there is not proof of god, and i understand the proof for him too.
but if you think, believe, or hold fast to the notion that we are not all religious, and (if not mentally sick) striving toward unity - then one need only do an etymological study of the word religion to see how it is a ubiquitous reality, and a GOOD one.
ignorant men are the ones that see the world through the lens they live in - and it is the lens of the world they want to be the god of (jean paul sartre) .
but the word (logos/logic - to translate the greek-john 1:1) is what will cure us, and god, who is language and morality=love can and perhaps on a small scale save us....but there is still more reading to do.
and who will you read, and what number will you trust before you do that? the one next to my photo, or the number next to those who are simply seeking followers - it's HIP to be atheist and its hard to believe in spite of them.
It's hip to Atheist....., I totally agree with that statement.
I don't think Christianity is the principal enemy of moral progress. I think Russell was just trying to be difficult, for the sake of being different.
What I would like to know, is why he felt this way and what conclusions did he draw from that made him feel this way in the first place. To my knowledge, he did a lot of bashing, and not a whole lot of explaining his reasonings.
What is moral progress anyhow?
From reading the article, one can easily see that there are nothing but explanations and very little if any bashing, unless one considers these types of statements bashing:
"In the so-called ages of faith, when men really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness, there was the Inquisition, with all its tortures; there were millions of unfortunate women burned as witches; and there was every kind of cruelty practiced upon all sorts of people in the name of religion."
Man is by his very nature more moral than the Bible or the God represented therein. Think about it. If you had no sense of morality and read the Bible to get your morals, you would come out of it a criminal. Things like bashing babies against rocks, raping young girls, slaughtering thousands, ripping open pregnant women, the subjugation of women, slavery, beating of slaves, ritual sacrifice, genital mutilation, etc....all condoned and commanded within the Bible. It is really a horrible document to base one's life upon.
I think one should look at the time and place the stories of the bible took place in. I mean the middle east isn't this most secure place to live in. Harder times, calls for extreme circumstances. Therefore, I do disagree with your statement and I think the logic behind your line of thinking, is a little off base too. Why? Well, to me it feels like you want to compare the bible's time frame to the present, and our world with theirs. They are apples to oranges, we can't compare the two.
Texasbeta. You just opened my eyes. I agree with you to the point that you are hinting to that all of that harm you mentioned is wrong. Then and now. Then why you ask is it becoming more and more heard of and even more added to the list.
Here is a brief answer. I hope you get my meaning. Life begins and ends with the maker. Think of it. He is not a torturing God. Lets take for an example of one of the illustrations you mentioned. Ripping open pregnant women. Ok. The act, begins with harming a body, to the point they can not take it any more. Where is the torture when the last breath of life leaves that person? Compassion that He had for the lady in harm. (God is not going to put anything on us that we can not handle.) Man? That is where the problem is. Why does everyone want to blame God? Yes, lives are lost. But has anyone ever thought to think?
However, that is the key to the argument, the issue that these laws were written then, a long time ago, in a totally different context than where we are today. The issue is that 78% of the United States profess to be a Christian, thus holding these laws to be important, even though they are thousands of years old. My point is the God in the Bible is not just, is not moral, is not good. If you were to make a movie, and make a character portray the actions of the God of the Bible, he would be one of the worst villains we have ever seen. Coming back at me with the Spirit does this and dogmatic pretense just will make me chuckle a bit because you aren't getting it. There is no spirit. Jesus was a man. The God of the Bible is an archaic manifestation of ancient man trying to understand his place in the world and justify his actions. I agree that man is violent, but then again man shows compassion towards his fellow man; we have grown past the pretext of enslaving people, of treating women like property, and raping children, bashing children against rocks. These are all not only mentioned in the Bible but commanded. If the creator is perfect, how can his creation be more moral? Simple, he wasn't the creator. He was a character in a book like Zeus once was.
If one believes in the bible, then one believes that is the world god created.
Of course, in "harder times" one would assume that a god would not wish to perpetuate the violence he created, unless that indeed was his intent.
In those times, "turning the other cheek" most certainly would have been the right thing to teach, and not, "and eye for an eye" which does nothing but perpetuate violence.
Well I don't believe in the bible, if by believing you mean that I am suppose to think it is all true facts.
The book was written by men. Men are flawed. There's the problem.
Funny how you first try to explain about harder times according to the bible, then you write that fallacious post???
I don't follow. How is it a fallacious post? How am I misleading you?
Check my posts under my name. You will read a long history of my posts, which contain several threads stating that I don't believe in the bible to be of non-fictional material.
To me, I was speaking to a poster who I thought was comparing modern America, to the times of the bible. I told him I didn't think he was considering the time frame, which was a mere 1700 yrs ago when the bible was created. How's that misleading?
I think your trying to pick a fight again Beezie. That's what I think.
So now what's your deal? Are we going to start this all over again today Beezie?
Yes, I understand that you consider the pointing out of your fallacious contradictions and misunderstandings as "trying to pick a fight." I see that constantly from believers here.
Whatever, you know you following me around is a little weird.
Don't flatter yourself.
This is a public forum and you are starting threads that show a tremendous amount of misunderstanding and fallacious ideals. We are all free to comment on your threads.
Yes you all are. But YOUR hatefulness has gone a little too far.
I'm done with you. Quit attacking me, and following me. This post right here shows you have a problem. I thought it was innocent Beezie, and that this is all just a misunderstanding. Well then, why are you still following me from post to post?
It's creepy. Please stop. I, unlike YOU, am trying to avoid you.
By the way, thanks for Highjacking this thread as well. Great beezie, great!
Texasbeta, the morbid, violent, terror of men is a true recording of man's history, your so called naturally moral humans, displaying the need for God's Spirit. Spirit is life. It's the Spirit that the bible guides unto. One must know the Spirit, and with the Spirit laws are not needed because living in that Spirit no one breaks a law. This is the true state of morality that the bible teaches and what we should seek. Jesus brings us this Spirit.
Knowledge as referred to by Russell is used more to destroy than to achieve a moral state. Was Bertrand Russell blind to the Spirit. I would think so. None religious experts has presented more proof that man is heading toward self destruction than what the bible has presented, and their proofs are increasing. One who says that there is no God is a fool.
I know there is not god - don't call me a fool !
I could not understand much of the other drivel you wrote and gave up trying to decipher the confusion therin.
Where is your true state of morality in the Bible? I find no part of it that isn't grated in immorality. Those true recordings of man's brutality that you refer to were almost ALL under the pretext of religion. Doing good to not get punished is childish and wrong. Doing good for the sake of it is altruistic.
If you took religion totally out of the world,there would be more prisons,because what we have would not handle the influx, a small percent of inmates are religious, while in prison they turn to religion as a means to help them get out, then when out the greatest number forget about religion.
when a war is fought, generally it is started by gready men
Yes - greedy men who use the ignorance of religion to justify their actions, you know, greedy religious people.
alternate poet, claiming to be religious is one thing and being a spirit filled believer in Jesus is quiet another. Most all greedy, power hungry men capitalized on the higher cause and the unifying force of religion to achieve their goals. Many truly religious persons have been slaughtered by these greedy men because the believer would not conform to their radical self serving interpretation of the same religion.
Oh - I didn't realise - those christians weren't christians at all. I know this may be hard but christianity is not about whatever nonsense is parked in the corner of your own mind - it is an ideology that you follow. It is the ideology that is the desease that causes all the suffering wars and misery - you are just the rat that carries it and spreads it.
Current statistics of inmates in the USA would disagree with you.
I agree with you they would disagree with me, they are trying to put on a good front, hopping that will get them a parole quicker.
go to prisons talk to the inmates, it looks like the want all the Word you can give them, as soon as they get out 95% of them do not want anything else to do with it
I think they realize they really messed up (honestly by getting caught) and they turn to God for help ( they are going thru a tough ordeal), and to convince people they have changed. I have heard that a lot of people "find God" when those doors slam shut.
earnestshub, your are prefabricated and locked into it solidly. If you experience a time of despair please drop everything and ask God to know His Spirit.
What in all hell are you talking about? I'm prefabricated? What like an outhouse?
I am a person, not a building!
Want to know the stats or not?
I disagree. Religion does not alleviate bad actions, but rather allows justification for them. BTW - the reason America has more prisons than anyone else, more incarcerated per capita than any other country on the planet, is not because we have less religion. We are actually the most religious Christian nation on the planet by far. It is because we allow private for profit prisons, and allow the prison lobby to grow to become the 2nd largest lobbying group in the country. They get 35k per prisoner and spend about 2k. The rest of profit as their infrastructure was provided by the state. It is a remarkable scam actually.
It's easy for some people to develop their own brand of morality based on whatever fearfull thing they conjure up, however the looming fact that it will always be based on fear remains regardless of the involvment of a higher power or not. The bottom line is that people don't do horrible things because they are affraid of the consequences weather they be dealt with on a temporal or spiritual level.
I'm affraid to punch out my boss because I'll get fired, I'm affraid to kill somone I don't like because I'll go to jail, I don't want to smoke because it's unhealthy.
Our bodies and minds are made to desire things that are bad for us. Why? The rest of the animal kingdom isn't like that. There has to be a reason that we are constantly fighting the urge to destroy ourselves. I believe that it is part of a higher plan for the development of the human soul.
I say, the truth in what he is saying is in the first line where he says "I think". It is just his opinion.
"Based primarily and mainly on fear."
No. Faith is not based on fear. It is of love. Love for God and one another.
"Fear of the unknown." What lays ahead of us is nothing to fear.
Peace, love, joy, no pain or sorrow. What is there to fear about that?
"Morales" The Bible, Jesus, teaches us morals. If every one would live the way Jesus teaches us, the world would be a much better place.
what is considered as morality?
In the most common understanding of morality, christianity promotes it in everyway.
And it is for this reason they have seduced the word and submerge it in many false doctrine which promotes and perpetuate the kingdom of darkness
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood, after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth swallowed up the flood.
Remembering that this is a dream ... From Johns prospective ...W hat might this coming out of the serpent's mouth be ???
Maybe Lies ?? False doctrine?
And the earth swallowing it all in ??
Maybe believing it?? , or buying it hook line and sinker ???
As I have said before; I think that this happened long, long ago !
The concept monotheism has been, still is, the bane of human progress.
Intimat...oh just about 2000 yrs of chronic death and destruction...that's all. Golly I'da thought you'da known that!
If ya check around the world, it's still goin' on. Ya gotta keep up girl.
Oh I see, so everything bad is now Religion's fault?
I don't think so. I think that is mankind's fault, and little of the weather's.
Hi Intimat: gosh I don't remember saying all of man's woes are due to monotheism. I just stated that monotheism is the bane of human progress.
Our species has been a warring/killing species for millions of years.
We're just doin' what comes naturally, guided by our genetic programming.
We're the baddest "dudes" on this planet!
For me your post was stating the obvious implication.
But it's whatever.
Have we ever agreed on anything? Have I ever changed your thinking on an issue?
I hardly doubt it.
Whether you think so or not- you have a long history of blaming God for world hunger, and blaming Christians and other religious follows for all the wrongs of the world.
Well I disagree with your philosophy.
However, if you don't believe me, just read your own posts. Just click on the number of posts you've made, and read them for yourself. It's under your picture and name.
Anyhow- if I misread your implications, my bad. I was just basing it off your long history of blaming God for everything bad.
I've never blamed this "god thing" on anything.
Man created this "god thing." "It" doesn't exist except in opinion and conjecture.
I blame universal ignorance which has caused man to create this fearfilled concept of a supernatural creator and controller.
Naw, this monotheistic concept has been, still is the bane of human progress.
We-the-people are to blame for ALL our problems.
I can't blame this man made "god thing," 'cause I understand what the "frickin" thing is i.e. "NUTHIN!"
Now "universal ignorance" (of things not known), I can agree to that. I totally think it is this. But for me, believing GOD has nothing to do with it, is the key here. Because Qwark, you've got several posts under your profile, where you have stated otherwise in the past.
However, if you now have changed your mind. I'm still indifferent, but none the less, glad.
Intimat: . "But for me, believing GOD has nothing to do with it, is the key here. Because Qwark, you've got several posts under your profile, where you have stated otherwise in the past."
Really? Pls cut and paste one for me.
There is not such thing as this "god thing." That's always been my "opinion."
I even noted that in my profile.
I know this Qwark, I'm sorry if I have confused you, but we are agreeing on the same thing Qwark.
I know you don't believe, but, to argue with us Christians, you like to argue that "we" use God for everything. So you'll write something like; "If God exists, then why is there world hunger. (hopefully this good enough for you, because that is all I'm going to cut and paste.)" I'm telling you- that being Christian concerning this subject matter, has NOTHING to do with the group being the principal enemy of moral progress.
You wrote, "The concept monotheism has been, still is, the bane of human progress." I asked how?
You gave me some answer about death and killing and told me to wake up. I was just trying to be polite and engage your comment about me needing to open my eyes, or wake up, or whatever your meaning was.
Of course I said "wake up." My goodness it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that as one studies the differing ethnic groups of humans inhabiting this earth that there are 2 major reasons for death and destruction.
They have so fragmented humankind that there is no longer a hope that at anytime during our lives they will ever come together to work in oncert for human survival.
There is no doubt that if monotheism were to be erradicated completely, we'd replace it with another concept to kill for.
We are genetically programmed killers. Monotheism is but a reason to blame the kill upon.
I'm not downing you personally, I am downing the man made, deadly scourge of monotheism.
I know that. I never said you were downing me.
Qwark- it's no biggie. I think we are on the same wavelength. I understand where you are coming from. And I never said you were downing me, so where you got that notion is beyond me. I was stating the facts, because you apparently needed me to copy and paste things for you to help you along the way. Therefore, I was only being thorough.
Intimat: You have to give a little leeway to yer elders...lol I try very hard not to make mistakes in my "hubs" and to tell it as I see it.
I understand that the forum is a place to exchange "ideas."
Regardless of whether we agree or not, it's nothing more than a place to purge and nothing I ever write is aimed to be a personal attack.
As you know, lol, I have already compiled a list of those whom do not deserve my attention....:-)
You are "civil" Intimat and as long as that continues, I will read and respond to anything you offer....:-)
???? You lost me.
However, don't feel the need to explain. Let's just say you lost me a long time ago. Somewhere between your "list" and PAX.
Like I know what that means........, but that's ok Qwark. I don't need to know. Have a good one. I'm off for now.
In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two
generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without
religious training is about 1/10 of 1%.
For those promoting that atheists have no morals this figure may be worth consideration.
Religion seems to be a major common denominator among prisoners.
there is 80% of Americans with christian training, that does not make 80% of americans christian. the majority of the christians are not christians.
words are cheap. you can not believe every thing you read or hear
Are you saying this is not a credible source?
I am saying that just because someone has religious training does not make the religious.
Haven't you said you have had religious training, but did not go for it.
I have had training in the electrical field, but that does not make me an electrical enginer
religious training does not mean they were Christians.
I have had 1 1/2 years of accounting, but I am not an accountant. training for anything does not mean anything unless you use the training.
getting religious training does not get you saved.
religious training does not get you born again
training of any kind does not do anyone any good unless the training is used
Another poster who goes off half cocked.
You should read before you make such assumptive statements.
earnestshub you stated In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10 of 1%
Are you saying this is not a credible source?
Another poster who goes off half cocked.
You should read before you make such assumptive statements.
you say I am going off half cock, because I disagree with your thought .
I just simply stated that just because someone has religious training, that does not make them religious.just as I said I have training in accounting, but that does not make me an accountant.
I have made a simple statement, but the idea of my statement does not agree with what you were attempting to portray, that Christians make up 99.9% of the population in prisons.
there are people in prison that claim to be Christians,
there are people in churches that claim to be Christians.
Just because some one say's something does not mean what they are saying is true.
earnestshub, do you think that this common denominator of prisoners are 100% practicing Christians? I can't see it!! Rather than questioning whether a credible source we should seek a more credible and meaningful parameter like who truly believes and have produced fruits of the Spirit?
I'm not getting into fruits here, nor am I a qualified sociologist, but they are the stats, and even if a huge number of prisoners were faking it, the stats are still too big to deny that they are significant when others are saying the jails are full of atheists! .
I'm gonna hot the sac..it's past midnite! Old folks gotta get their rest...g'nite all...ttyl...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I think that Christianity does stand in teh way of moral progress in some way because it removes the responsibility of people choosing their own morality. People can only progress when they choose their moral values and suffer the consequences if tehy choose wrong.
I think there is a lot of truth in that statement. However, people can believe what they like, but at the end of the day they are still responsible. So for me- religion isn't the issue, again it is man being man, and has nothing to do with Christianity or religion at all.
See I feel Russell used Christianity as an scapegoat, for his flawed ideology. If someone wants to kill someone, as we know with serial killers, they will. Whether Christ is involved or not. If a man is going to rape a woman, he is going to rape her. I believe it to be that simple.
63 responses! not bad! I think it's run the course tho. Most responses not too good....some thoughtful and well expressed but not imaginative.
...I have to thank all the hubbers who tried,,,,,THANKS!
Sorry the above was meant for another hub title..I take this one back....ooooppppssssss!
Worship and love of God is a great thing. Religion and religious dogma, is what makes people not want to be a part of Christianity. Along with the fact that many Christians don't practice what they preach! Love God, treat people the way you want to be treated and do the will of the Father. Spread God's message of LOVE and salvation!
2be: Really? How do you know this?
Look up the definition of the word "know."
You only create this god thing in your mind from what you are told and what you read in an ancient book of fairytales.
Pls cut and paste for us one (1) scripture from any monotheist sriting that defines this god thing in any form but opinbion and conjecture.
If ya can't do that, you are just fulla hope and guessing and we can't take ya to be a credible hubber ref this god thing.
Ok, I've given ya the challenge. Go for it!
I think my most troubling aspect about Christianity, is the worshiping part. I stopped going to church years ago. I don't like organized religious worship. I think it is all too judgmental and "political" now.
Maybe this is how Russell felt. Maybe he was made to feel unwelcome in a Christian church somewhere. This would explain how his feelings about Christianity slowly developed over time.
Is Christianity the principal enemy of moral progress in the world?
Jesus was a Jew and a Messenger Prophet of the Creator-God Allah YHWH and in that capacity he was a moral and spiritual teacher for humanity.
"Christianity" is a misnomer of a religion invented by Paul and was not authorized from the Creator-God Allah YHWH. It was for this that this religion of Paul is an enemy of real moral progression; rather it is a degeneration of it, in my opinion.
I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
I believe that ignorance is the obstacle, not religion, per se. Ignorance wears many different coats and hats. The fact that I do or do not believe in god shouldn't be an issue. Does the fact that children believe in the tooth fairy cause me conniptions? No. Does belief in Santa cause me consternation? No. Those who are overly concerned with those who hold seemingly impotent beliefs should get a life. They only give those they disagree with more power over them (those who disagree.) If a tricycle is blocking my path, I walk around it. The only real danger is believing that the tricycle isn't there, when it in fact is.
Religion and religious dogma, is what makes people not want to be a part of Christianity. Along with the fact that many Christians don't practice what they preach! Love God, treat people the way you want to be treated
Queer "Christian" practices of the Church never started by Jesus who was a Jew; added by the queer teachings invented by Paul, take "Christianity" afar from reality. The Christians should revisit Jesus and his real teachings and revive Christianity to appeal to the masses. Please salvage Christians from Paul's-christianity.
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