Nowhere does it say in the Bible that there is an entity with the nomenclature "holy Ghost". There are only the father, YHWH and the son Jesus. Holy spirit is a myth, in fact it is non-existent. Pray ONLY to YHWH and only through the proper channel : Jesus. Do NOT pray to Jesus.
People, please do not deviate from the topic. PLEASE
I started to make reference to all the Scriptures that debunk your claim. But surely you are aware of those?
So...what are you trying to say?
The only way you can be even halfway right is if you're trying to say that the 3 persons in the Trinity are all One and are inseparable.
The trinity are all one. We should all end our prayers in the name of Jesus.
What do you mean?
The Trinity is God. The Father is God. Jesus is the manifestation (a "piece" of God, so-to-speak) that was sent to us because we humans were unable to understand God and how much He Loves us without having something put right in front of our faces, so to speak; a perfect example of how to behave in a Godly manner, something we cannot do without His help. The Holy Ghost is the manifestation that was sent to us after Jesus died and returned to Heaven, since Jesus would no longer be with us here in the flesh on earth. They area all three God. Distinct purposes but inseparable.
after reading this I feel beter. For min. here I was thinking maybe my view was not correct, I thought it and do think it to be the 3 aspects of God, 1 in 3, 3 in one. but all of God almighty, not 3 seperate.
it was the way the thread read to me at first....I got it. thanks Brenda
looking at it now, some of the passages.
You're welcome. Yeah, thirdmillenium's post is....confusing. I dunno if the intent was to confuse or to provoke questions, since the poster hasn't been back to comment....wish he/she would; I like thirdmillenium...
I agree with you; there is only one True-God, the Creator-God Allah YHWH; whom Jesus used to call, as per Bible,God-the-Father, only symbolically not literally or physically; hence trinity is mythical.
One should neither pray to Jesus nor to the the Holy Ghost; they both are servants of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; Jesus as a man and the Holy Ghost as an Angel.
I think it is quite within the topic.
I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
You Dare to attack God's Holy Bible??
What bible are you reading from, because in the King James Version of The Holy Bible there is definite reference made to the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit:
See the following:
Psalm: 16: 10
And there are many more references in the New teatament.
When Jesus sends out the apostles, he tells them to teach His Gospel to all and to Baptize in the name of The Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit.
I advise you to stop spreading vicious lies. Since God is a Triune God three distinct persons in one God.
P L E A S E G O T H R O U G H T H I S C A R E F U L L Y ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
To Us There is but One God, the Father...”
1 Corinthians 8:6
In the end times in which we are living, light is being shed on the many mysteries of doctrine conceived in the dark ages of Christian history. One of these mysteries is the doctrine of the trinity. Now, in this age of enlightenment, thousands of faithful believers in Christ are beginning to doubt this doctrine that claims that Jesus is his own heavenly Father–Jehovah. Often, they secretly question this doctrine, but maintain their silence for fear of being labeled a heretic. Indeed, most Christian churches claim that belief in the trinity is essential to being a Christian, and leave no room for dialog and certainly no opportunity for impartial investigation on this topic.
But, God Himself invites us to reason when He says, “Come now, and let us reason together.” (Isaiah 1:18) The Apostle Paul commended the Jews of Berea for their diligent search of the Scriptures to be sure that what they were being taught was indeed truth. Thus, their faith was well established and they quickly accepted Christ. (Acts 17:11) Paul urged Timothy: “Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15
It is with this scriptural principle that all Christians should be encouraged to examine their church creeds to be certain that they are honoring God by what they believe. If there is doubt on any subject, there is need for study. Then, after thorough examination, “let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind” without fear of persecution. Romans 14:5
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD Our God is One LORD.” Deuteronomy 6:4
To both the Prophets and the Apostles, God revealed Himself in the Bible as having no equal, and always existing. “Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the LORD.” (Isaiah 43:10, 11) His name in Hebrew is YHVH (Jehovah or Yaweh), and He is addressed throughout the Scriptures as Heavenly Father, God, or LORD. For 4,000 years those who were His people had no indication that He was anything other than the single, unitary, supreme God that He declared Himself to be.
In His wisdom, the one true God promised the prophets of old that, in due time, He would send forth a savior to redeem the lost world of mankind. God would anoint this servant as His representative with power and authority. The Jews lived in constant anticipation of this Messiah (Hebrew) or Christ (Greek) -- both meaning anointed. “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son...” (Heb.1:1-2) God anointed Jesus as His prophet–His servant. Moses told Israel “The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken.” (Deuteronomy 18:15) Prophetically, Isaiah said “Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him.” Isaiah 42:1
“My Beloved Son, in Whom I am Well Pleased.”
This anointed prophet and servant was God’s “only begotten Son,” Jesus Christ the righteous. “When the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman...” (Galatians 4:4) The Scriptures declare that the Father had no beginning. Jesus Christ is repeatedly spoken of as being brought into existence. Tertullian, writing in the second century, said, “There was a time when the Son did not exist.” (Early Church Fathers, page 21) How else could the Bible declare that Jesus was “...the firstborn of every creature...” and “the beginning of the creation of God.” Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14
Jesus desired that his disciples should understand who he was and why he came. He asked them, “whom say ye that I am?” The Apostle Peter answered Jesus’ question “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus then declared that upon this rock–-this foundational truth that he was the promised Messiah and Son of God–he would build his church. Matthew 16:15-18
Jesus had a mission to accomplish as God’s anointed one, and the entire theme of the Bible states that mission: “For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me... And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life...” (John 6:38, 40) Here we see that God is the author, and Jesus is the honored executor of the Father’s plans.
Although, as a Son, Jesus was subordinate to God Almighty, it makes him no less worthy of honor. “The Son of man came ...and there was given him [by his Father] dominion, and glory, and a kingdom...” (Daniel 7:13,14) Jesus did not assume this honor, glory or service on his own, but he received it at the hand of his Father and superior, God Himself. Jesus said, “If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me...” (John 8:54) Paul explained: “Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but He [God] that said unto him [Jesus], Thou art my Son...” (Hebrews 5:4, 5)
Jesus recognized his honored position, and yet always remained humble. He said, “the Father is greater than I,” and “I can of mine own self do nothing...” (John 14:28; John 5:30) The Apostle Paul declared, “The Head of Christ is God” and “ye are Christ’s and Christ is God’s.” (1 Corinthians 11:3; 3:23) He also referred to the Father as “the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Ephesians 1:17
Origin of the Trinity Concept
That which the Jews believed for thousands of years about the singularity of God should be harmonious and compatible with Christian doctrine. Jesus taught his followers that the Jewish traditions and concepts about God the Father were not negated. Christianity is not a new religion with a new god, but an extension of Judaism, with the same God that Israel worshiped. Why, then, has this original understanding of God the Father given way to the concept termed the trinity, now considered by many to be the touchstone of Christian faith?
Both Catholic and Protestant scholars recognize that the concept termed trinitytook centuries to evolve. Indeed, it was not introduced until the fourth century, leading to the Nicene Creed (AD325), and The Nicaeno-Constantinopolitan Creed (AD381). After the Apostles died, a gradual falling away from the original faith occurred. Great numbers of pagans entered the church bringing with them their pagan ideas. Various triune-god concepts, originating in Babylon, had spread throughout the ancient world and had become a prominent feature of the Egyptian, Persian, Grecian, Roman, Japanese and Indian mythologies. Trinitarian historians concede that pagan Greek philosophy played a significant role in the development of the Christian trinity.
In this dark period of church history, many political pressures were mixed into Christian doctrine and practices. Fearing that religious dissension might disrupt the political unity of his empire, the Emperor Constantine summoned a general council of bishops to deal with the controversy as to whether Jesus the Son was also his own Father. The proponents for and against the trinitarian concept debated the issue, with the Emperor finally calling for a vote of the bishops to settle the matter. The Trinitarian Creed, as finally adopted, fixed the doctrine of the person of Christ as “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, ... of one substance with the Father...” With the Emperor’s threat of banishment, according to Socrates, all but five signed the Creed. (Socrates, Eccl. Hist. 1, 8; and article CREED, NICENE, McClintock & Strong Cyclopedia). The basic substance of the Nicene Creed came to be adopted by many as the true identity of God and the defining doctrinal test as to whether one was really a Christian.
This creed explicitly defined God as actually composed of three persons: “God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”–all co-equal and co-eternal–yet, in the Bible, only one of these appears: “...there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things... and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things.” (1 Corinthians 8:6) The other terms “God the Son” and “God the Holy Spirit” never appear in Scripture. In fact, the term trinityis not found in the Bible. Admittedly, the concept of the trinity is mysterious, incomprehensible and impossible to square with the one God testimony of the forefathers.
Real Sacrifice, Real Death
To truly understand the relationship of the heavenly Father and His beloved Son is to understand the depth of compassion the Father had for the world of mankind. Jesus’ suffering and death were real, and so too was the sacrifice of His Father in sending His Son to suffer. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” John 3:16-17
It is a great mistake that many Christians make in thinking that only the all-powerful Jehovah could take on the weight of the sins of billions of people. This mistaken concept then demands that the one who died for our sins, Christ Jesus, must be God Himself. But the Scriptural doctrine of the ransom declares that the life of a perfect man can be an acceptable sacrifice to offset the sin of Adam, and consequently the inherited sins of all mankind. “As by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.” 1 Corinthians 15:21
Only the life of a perfect man without sin could accomplish the equal payment for the perfect life of Adam which was lost. “There is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Timothy 2:5,6) The ransom price was a perfect human life for a perfect human life–a corresponding price. The Greek word used by our Lord for ransom (Mark 10:45) is lutron-anti, which signifies, “a price in offset, or a price to correspond.” Thus Jesus said, “The Son of Man came...to give his life a ransom [lutron-anti–a price to correspond] for many.” Matthew 20:28
As Adam, through disobedience, forfeited his being, his soul, all his rights to life and to earth, so Christ Jesus our Lord, by his death, as a corresponding price, paid a full and exact offset for Father Adam’s soul or being. In consequence, all who were yet to be born from Adam–every human soul sharing by inheritance in his sin–receive the opportunity for life through Christ’s sacrifice.
If Jesus is God the Father, then Jesus’ death was not real– it was just an illusion, because God cannot die. When Jesus prayed with “strong crying and tears” unto his Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, his agony was real. The cry of Jesus, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” would merely have been without real agony if he were his own Father and already immortal. No, when Jesus breathed his last upon the cross, he really died. This fact is especially important to comprehend and appreciate the magnitude of the sacrifice that Jesus was willing to offer! He did not merely appear to humble himself, while really retaining his glory and power; it was not that he seemed to become poor for our sakes. No, he actually became a man–“the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all.” 1 Tim. 2:5, 6
The True Oneness of God and Jesus
The relationship of the Father to the Son is truly beautiful. They are two completely separate beings, with oneness applying only to their purpose and will. And the followers of Christ are invited to share in this intimate oneness of purpose and will: “...the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one...” (John 17:22) With this understanding we can clearly appreciate that Jesus, God’s chief agent from all creation, was “daily his delight” (Prov.8:30), and volunteered to be the redeemer of men in accordance with his Father’s plan: “ I heard the voice of the Lord [Jehovah], saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I [the Logos], Here am I; send me.” (Isaiah 6:8) Jesus told his disciples, “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life...” (John 10:17) This was a sincere and deep love between a Father and a Son.
The night before he was crucified, Jesus prayed to the Father that, when resurrected, he might have “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5) Jesus also explained, “I came down from heaven,” and “Before Abraham was, I am.” (John 8:58; 6:38) What did he mean? Jesus, as the firstborn of every creature had a heavenly nature before he came into the world as a babe. He gave up his spiritual nature for an earthly one, in order that he might give his human life a ransom price for the sins of the whole world. Colossians 1:15, 17
Yes, Jesus “was made flesh, and dwelt among us,” and then he gave up his life so that Adam and his race could be ransomed from the grave. (John 1:14) Because of Jesus’ faithfulness and obedience, his Father was pleased to raise His anointed Son to life anew – this time with the Divine nature, to sit at his Father’s right hand on the throne of glory. “God....hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things... when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; being made so much better than the angels...” (Hebrews 1:2, 4) Jesus said that after the successful accomplishment of his mission, “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.” John 20:17
The result of Jesus’ sacrifice will be “testified in due time,” when he will raise the dead and set up his righteous Kingdom among men, destroy all enemies (including death), and “when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:28) In Jesus’ own words, “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.” John 17:3-4
thirdmillenium, I'm not a scholar, but I can see Light through some of the holes in your theory. The Trinity is real; inseparable parts of the Godhead. God has no confusion about that, and neither should a Christian have confusion about it! It is entirely simple for me to understand that God consists of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all distinct manifestations but never separate!
Will try to find time to respond more later, maybe.
But for right now, let me just say that John 4: 24 tells us that God is a Spirit. From that, we can of course gather the fact that God's Spirit is the only spirit that can be considered Holy.
And so, whethere we worship God in the name of the Father, or the "Holy Ghost", it's all the same. And also Jesus. ...The thing about making sure that we recognize Jesus is because Jesus sacrificed Himself for us, and God placed the name of Jesus above all others. In our human frailness, we must always remember that Sacrifice; it's the only way our fallible minds can reach God.
I was just wondering what Bible you were referring to. One of the first things I learned was Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. How about an example: I am one person but at the same time I am a daughter, wife, and mother. I begin all my prayers with "I come before you in the precious name of Jesus." I end all prayers "In Jesus name I pray, Amen."
The connection between the Holy Spirit and love is brought out by St. Paul in Romans (5:5): “The charity of God is poured forth into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, who is given to us.”
No Man can know God except by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit and God is ONE no difference no division.
The Holy Spirit IS FATHER and is SON
If you depend on the Bible to clarify these things are trusting Idols, then errors are inevitable.
For through the Holy Spirit ALONE, you know all things For this SPIRIT is TRUTH...
You're correct kess, that they are all ONE. How strange! Since you deny the Bible's clarification of the issue. The Bible DOES clarify the point.
says the son is the Father
that is as plain as it can get, look it up and read for yourself
Right. I agree. Were you thinking that I was trying to dispute the fact?
...The only reason for Jesus was to be the perfect example for us, for mankind. We must always recognize that, recognize His sacrifice for us; that's the only way we can be saved. But yes, they are ONE.
What I'm trying to say is that the 3 distinct manifestations of God were needed, and are still needed, even while we recognize that they add up to the ONE God.
Greetings from the road Brenda. I'm in a little town called West Bank Michigan, I will be leaving shortly for Stockton California. Keep me in your prayers and I shall you as you continue to pass on the good word.
God Bless you.
Brenda, I was just agreeing with ya, just thought I would add that for paarsurrey's sake
Why then you and the original poster will forever disagree?
And how did you come up with a trinity?
You both try hard to follow Spiritual writing without the aid of the Spirit.
Even when those same writing say to follow The Holy Spirit not the writings themselves.
You then follow the wrong path ...inevitably.
Ha.... but what can I say to you since you believe the Scripture Is the Spirit itself.
So then you speak thing that sound spiritual and right in the ears of men, since their origin is Spirit... but without any Truth (SPIRIT).
i am not totally convinced of a trinity either. I think the holy spirit and God are the same.
I don't agree with isa 9:6 saying that the father is the son. This scripture is a prophecy of jesus christ i have no problem with that.
The OT we have yahweh, yep.
The NT we have jesus, yep.
To pray in jesus name means to "live" in jesus' ways not just to repeat some mantra like saying.
The OT did not have jesus so it would have been rather difficult to pray to jesus before jesus was manifest.
Now we have two. Jesus accepted worship and was the godhead fully and man fully. To say we do not pray to jesus is wrong. The messiah has come, some people need to realize this and also:
Matthew 23:39 "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see
me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that
cometh in the name of the Lord".
In fact the Church has deviated the Christians from the ways and the teachings of Jesus.The Church has put the Christians purposely in doubt by creating false mysteries and has termed them holy.
If one look into the Catechism of the Catholic Church for the three persons of the Trinity and table their attributes in three column; one could discern that there are certain attributes which are existent in one but are non-existent in the other; when the attributes differ, the persons become distinctly different from one another and separate entities. It is a untrue trinity; I agree with you.
A person cannot have three distinctly different entities. How do you know God can't? God is not a man. You speak of God as if He were just an ordinary person.
The Creator-God Allah YHWH is only person with many attributes; Holy Ghost is only an angel and servant like so many other angels; Jesus is also a human servant like Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster and Moses; they are not a part of the Creator-God Allah YHWH.
Did anyone read the newest Batman? Its way better and more believeable too!
Hokey! Good to see you again.
I don't read the comic books.
Nothing much has changed here.
What about you, anything new?
Just been taking my time to focus on my music and just been filling notebooks instead of the internet.
Yeah, I think there is three aspects of god too. Bad, worse, and Satan.
Yeah, your tendency to blaspheme against what the Bible says is now notorious, sandra.
Actually, you have pretty much blasphemed everything about your so called savior. Good luck on getting saved.
After you have advocated to kill everyone who doesn't believe in your all evil god, then let me know how you figure you will be saved unless of course, your savior is the Devil and by its will, being a martyr and killing others for him is worthy of his grace.
I've never advocated to kill anyone, period.
And yes you sound really bitter about something. I dunno what, but it apparently swayed you to insult Woman of Courage, who was obviously trying to reach out to you in Love.
Whatever, sandra! I don't have to listen to your tirade. If you need help, ask for it respectfully. Otherwise, you can stop accusing people already, okay? And if you want to continue to call God "Satan", that's your problem, not mine. But it sure is a change from the person who I first saw posting Scripture around here, like, last year, I think it was.
And if you want to continue calling Satan god, then go right ahead that isn't my problem that is yours. Otherwise you can stop accusing people already. And if you want help you can respectfully ask for it but you have not changed a bit from the first post the this one.
You might think you have never done anything wrong or advocated certain ungodly behavior but you do it consistently without remorse and you cannot even acknowledge how disrespectful and evil the things you say really are because you are too blinded by believing that god says everything you do is good even if it includes taking away peoples rights, disrespecting 'gays' who died because they were gay and harassed by god believing people who think being gay is an abomination and god hates them for it etc...
You live your life however you want to but you step over the line when you believe that everyone should submit to you and your god and your way of life.
If you don't want to hear what other people think then you don't deserve to be heard as well. Even then, if I said why don't you go away and keep your personal beliefs private and to yourself you would give me the "I have the freedom to do what I want" speech and thus you found yourself in a hypocritical argument that seems to only serve you purpose.
I really cannot stand you. BTW, posting scripture, I just wanted to see how many would take up the opportunity to use scripture as a weapon to belittle others with different beliefs and like clockwork, you and Sir Dent wasted no time in taking up the opportunity to use the Bible as a weapon.
Very tricksy of you. Almost devilishly so, even.
Thanks for finally owning up to that.
Bibles words are true and eternal. God does not want us to be politically correct. God has said that the world will become more evil as time goes on. This gay issue you bring up is Sin in Gods sight, sorry, you need to worry less about what the world has trained you to think and get into what God is doing. God is not killing, God is making peace and entertaining strangers, and helping the sick and poor and feeding children. This is what God is doing. If you want to live in the past and hold me responsible for what the catholic church did centuries ago, well, i will let that slip by for the facade of truth that it is. The God of the bible says that people need to come out of their sin. Mouth full of semen is sin, toys that vibrate is sin.. the breaking of the hymen before marriage is huge sin. Sex is not to be abused. Abusing sex is SIN. God will never change his standard on that, but, he has agreed to help everyone who needs to change. I have witnessed Gods change in my life, (not from being gay but in other areas). God will never accept a sinner into what God has for them after death. Sin is Sin is sin and the whole purpose of jesus dying on the cross was to put an end to the power that sin has over people. If people can just bring their sin with them then christ died in vain. I do not believe God would dupe or lie to people about the death of his Son, the most important occurrence in the bible.
have a nice day if you can after that.
Hi sandra, you seem to have experience some painful things in your life, and it has cause you to be very bitter. That's no excuse to hate God and speak against his holy word. If you need true answers to things, all you have to do is ask with respect. Do you really desire to remain bitter? May God bless your heart.
Bitter? Actually it's the other way around. You seem very bitter about my what I think the trinity is. Why? What problem do you actually have with it? Are you saying that my thoughts are less important and blasphemous because it doesn't agree with you?
I don't know what it is that makes people do this but why stir up strife? I think it is a deliberate attempt to start conflict when you disrespect someone elses religion, faith, or their God!
I don't think it's fair or even accurate to blame the whole religion for something one group within that religion does! It's the same concept of blaming "all white" people today for slavery that happened many years ago! One cannot help the actions of others!
What makes you think that anyone is advocating to kill people who don't believe their way? I feel it is everyone's right to believe however they want! It's their business! God doesn't force himself on anyone! They can chose him or not! It's their choice!
If you think the trinity is what you say it is... then that is your view! It doesn't mean one can't say they disagree! Because that's the point of debating things... is giving your viewpoints on topics and other's views! Other's may say they don't agree and give their points... everybody has the right to say how they feel!
In saying that... I disagree with your trinity view! I'm curious as to why you think of God in this way! No offense but I sincerely want to know.
And God loves you! It doesn't matter if you believe in him or not.. he is still there!
sandra, I have too much love and joy in my heart. There is no way I will give any room to bitterness. You seem to be a expert of twisting words. I am saying that your thoughts is out of line with God's word. It's not about agreeing with me, and it's not about anyone's opinion. It is about the truth in the bible. You think the three aspects of God is bad, worse and Satan. If you truly knew who God is, you would never say something like that. God loves you sandra and I do also.
The whole point of a christian question is not to get the people who don't believe in on it. Christians, as has been pointed out time after time after time, don't care if you have other ideas, (mans ideas are folly compared to the bibles wisdom) so what have non believers to contribute? This forum has only become a place where they can vent human ideas, and like some ill fluid inject them into a healthy stream of conversation.
Gee i think i will go over to the atheist sight and find some nice thread and write... well i think the God of the bible doesn't believe in a big bang theory.. of what use is that to them? They will say "we don't believe in what you are saying, go away".
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