Why do you believe in God? Be specific. If you don't believe in God, Why not?
I feel and I sense and I see the inertness, the order of things, and the immutable, and it is as real as when I feel romantic toward my girl friend. God minister to whom He desire; thru many things whom He has created.
So - no reason then? Just a sexual urge.
I pity you.
Mark- I have only been on forums a few times. I have seen your hostility towards believers. What does it say about a person if his first resort is hostility? To me it says that it is a desperate act of intimidation from a bully that hides behind a keyboard. Or in your case an eyepiece. You may feel superior, but in the end you seem insecure. Your words do not intimidate me. Like the wizard of oz that spoke in such a loud and intimidating voice, when the curtain was pulled back, it revealed a simple man that needed help more than any who sought him out for the same.
ever heard of the ecstasy of st. therese?
SOOO, by this above then. God ministers to whom he chooses? and for you it is sexual, like your Girlfriend?
What if he- God, chooses to have a headache that day! Say, no answer to a prayer?
then you are all latherd up and no place to go right? if you keep this up you will become very dis-satisfied menaly, you are set up for a fall like this.
I don't believe in a god. I don't have any belief about a god.
For those who like to nick-pick and twist words, I used to have a belief, however, I've realized that that belief was unfounded, irrational and absolutely meaningless with regards to my life or that of humanity in general.
Therefore, I hold no belief whatsoever of a god, much less in any particular one god.
Living life doesn't require knowledge of a god or acknowledgment of a god.
Understanding life doesn't require knowledge of a god or acknowledgment of a god.
Therefore, no god required.
I am sure you disagree. You don't know any better than to think irrationally.
I think you wrote just an ordinary Atheistic view; nothing rational in it; well you have a right.
Are you suggesting that you can rationally conclude that existence is causeless? Or that it is random?
Honest response acknowledged and appreciated.
If bitterness is what you see? Then I would have wonder why you say that.
I'm not bitter at all. I detest religious folks claiming truth, even when they refuse to open their own damn eyes.
I don't spread lies. My other post in this thread proves the bible is false in it's doctrines. Therefore it's concept of a god makes no sense.
I detect a hard edge to your words as if you have been going it alone for awhile or that maybe life hasn't been so easy. I don't know, I just always get a bitter vibe from your responses, as if you have something to prove to us ridiculous blind sheep. I know I can come across as sounding crazy, and I accept that, so please don't think I'm criticising you, its not that, I am just curious about the person behind the words.
It has nothing to do with my life. I have come to terms with my past, learned from it and now use what I've learned.
Again, I detest people who are not willing to look into things. I don't care for narrow-minded people, because they are more ignorant than the average person. Learning never stops, yet people choose to stop learning in specific areas and damaging themselves.
I don't come to the forums to prove anything. I have nothing to prove. I rather have people realize for themselves, so they can get over the heart-break much more easily and move on forward.
I'm not seeing your words as criticism. It's not a problem.
I don't care for narrow-minded people either. And I continually try to learn. I read as much as I can, I question as much as I can, and I work my butt off to see everything from someone else's point of view. But I am also deeply rooted in my faith...not religion...faith. So do I fit into your group of people that you detest? This is not a mean question and I'm not trying to goad you, but I'm curious.
If you have a deep rooted faith? It came from religion.
Do I detest you? Are you trying to make me detest you? I mean, you have questions and I can understand that too.
But, being in a forum, spreading beliefs, especially religious ones, simply shows people are not interested in what other people actually say, but they want to reinforce their own faith by confronting those who don't believe.
Yet, these same people lack the understanding that they are truly wrong, because they received their information from the same source as everyone else.
The Priests of the world have done a perfect job at holding back the truth about the bible, religion and doctrines of all.
When people refuse to come to an understanding that they really do not know everything about their religion....they only pawn it off as protecting their faith. Or point out people are attacking a god of some sort?
No one attacks something that cannot be seen, or talked to or touched. It's stupid to think that people attack an imaginary supposed entity.
The lack of knowledge on believers' part is the simple fact that the OT was false and the NT was written too long after Jesus was executed, to be any good to anyone, because it's based on a literal interpretation of Jesus' teachings and not a literal translation of the language it was written in to begin with.
The Doctrines written for all religions deal with 3(same) doctrines, and all of the are unattainable by human beings, as I have already said within this thread.
Just one flaw:
"The lack of knowledge on believers' part is the simple fact that the OT was false and the NT was written too long after Jesus was executed, to be any good to anyone, because it's based on a literal interpretation of Jesus' teachings and not a literal translation of the language it was written in to begin with."
There were no "literal" translations of this jesus's words. Aramaic is a long dead language.
All of the NT, is contrived by heresay. Corrupted stories passed down thru about 300 yrs of generations.
You are absolutely correct in saying that the Nt was not available and promulgated for almost 300 yrs after the alledged crucifixion.
"Believers" haven't done their homework!
Cagsil, why does my faith have to come from deep rooted religion? I actually refused to be baptized and turned away from my family's religion because I found it to be false and judgemental. The reason for that is because religion is human and humans are deeply flawed. But eventhough I spent years questioning EVERYTHING, it still came back to one thing as ridiculous as it may sound; I couldn't deny the presence that I felt in my soul. And what I know now is that I will never have all the answers but that I still love to debate with philosophers and preachers. For me, I don't need all the answers. There are so many unexplainable things in life, so why go crazy trying to make it all make sense?
Anyhow, I know that you will have an in depth response to this, and actually, when I read your answers, like with Quark, I laugh to myself that your views are really so much more easier to accept than mine. But that isn't the point, is it?
You said you were deep rooted in faith. Not in religion. I understood that- if you are deep rooted in faith, with regards to a god, then it only came from religion's concept. That's all. I wanted you to realize, you cannot break the connection the two have, just because you feel like it. If you don't believe in some religion, then you have no use for a belief in a god. Religion brought the concept of god to people, as a higher authority.
Jesus himself, debunked the OT, but no one wants to face that fact. Jesus knew the perpetuated form of religion was false. They worshiped a false idol.
This is the singular point of the bible people continue to overlook. This is found out by simply reading the bible.
It is suppose to be 'god' inspired writing. If a bible is read cover to cover, then one would realize a 'god' never inspired anything in it. Not to mention, if they did just a little bit of research about "religion" itself, then the whole scheme comes into view.
Yes, there are many unexplainable things. Then again, there questions that never need be answered too.
That I find interesting.
I have read the bible and I became very distraught at everything in it. I would constantly drill my father (a pastor) about it and he would just say 'it was written by man, and interpreted by man...you have to look at it that way.'
The bible has some nice passages in it, comforting passages, and it also has some great stories and life lessons, but thats not what I live for. I know you think the 'soul' is unfounded, and I don't beg to differ, I just have my beliefs and thats it. I am not stupider for them, and I am not making the world a worse place by having them.
After about 35 yrs of study and thought, yes, pretty easy to develop concepts concerning reality.
The mind must mature and be open to new info and knowledge.
A wide range of information, regarding practically "everything," must be accrued, organized, understood and juggled.
The wheat must be seperated from the chaff. The real from the metaphysical. The truth from fiction and the serious from the inane, before a concept can be created which can be depended upon to offer greater "truths."
Emotion cannot be considered to be a factor in determining a "truth."
You speak of soul. Soul? That is imagined and has no basis in "truth." It is an emotional consideration.
As one studies and the macro and micro world come into view, epiphanies are experienced that change lives, usually for the better.
I have never known anyone who has gone "crazy" seeking and learning.
As "truths" are experienced so is ones IQ.
Now the only thing left to consider is "common sense" and an ability to use all of one's gained knowledge to live a full and joyfull life.
I believe in the Creator-God Allah YHWH as it is very natural to believe in Him; it is as natural as believing in my parents one's father and mother. Does anybody ever needed any reason to believe in parents?
Although rudimentary, this is a nice example of an Appeal to Belief, Red Herring and Strawman fallacy.
It is my understanding that Einstien was a believer.
Einstein didn't believe in a god or the god of religion. He was of the mind that there is a possibility of a god, just not probable.
Einstein would appear to be a believer, as some of the things he said, brings up "god" in his conversations with others. Or quotes.
Einstein was also only a believer because it was more dangerous to not be one, during his life.
Thanks for the input. You seem to be more informed on him than I am. I got my info from a questionable source. What causes you to doubt the existence for God? I'm sure you have put thought and rational thinking into the matter. Your input is why I asked in the first place. I premise that unbelievers put more thought into why than believers.
When you honestly study the religions, which refer to some god, is not healthy. The religions of the world have the same Major 3 Doctrines.
I've said this time and again, yet religious folk don't listen to well.
Doctrine #1)Selfless(undefined by religious scripture), walking this path will only lead you to become selfish. It's human nature.
Doctrine #2)Oppress Desires(undefined by religious scripture), walking this path leads to one to go insane. Scientifically backed. It is impossible to oppress ALL desires and live life.
Doctrine #3)Belief in God(100% faith) is required. This is impossible for a human being to do it. They cannot be 100% sure of anything, because humans have flaws- thus doubt always remains.
When you put these doctrines into your life, you won't like your life very much. Now, remember- religions claim the teachings are inspired by a god. Why would a god sabotage his own creation?
All 3 doctrines are unattainable. Perfection for human beings is for some a life time achievement. Perfection is fleeting and only last for a brief moment.
perfection in our present day is impossible, so all those 3 doctrines are unattainable by 100%.
who told you these 3 can all be attained in a perfect way or 100%? the Bible doesn't teach that. besides, science tells there is no perfect human being living today. nonetheless, people can attain these three doctrines up at a certain level.
can you be selfless for your family up at a certain level?
can you oppress desire to avoid ending up in jail up at a certain level?
can anyone believe in God up at a certain level? you did before.
Einstein wasn't a believer. Not that it would matter if he was.
I am a deeply religious nonbeliever - this is a somewhat new kind of religion.
I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty.
I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil.
* I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.
o In response the telegrammed question of New York's Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein in (24 April 1929): "Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid 50 words." Einstein replied in only 25 (German) words. Spinoza's ideas of God are often characterized as being pantheistic.
o Expanding on this he later wrote: "I can understand your aversion to the use of the term 'religion' to describe an emotional and psychological attitude which shows itself most clearly in Spinoza... I have not found a better expression than 'religious' for the trust in the rational nature of reality that is, at least to a certain extent, accessible to human reason."
As quoted in Einstein : Science and Religion by Arnold V. Lesikar
* It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
o Letter to an atheist (1954) as quoted in Albert Einstein: The Human Side (1981) edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman ISBN 0691023689
Even though he said himself he was not a believer. Seems you don't have an understanding at all.
my previous belief in God was from indoctrination. My personal observations of hypocrisy etc put me off. And my study of science (I have a degree in science). Lately, I've been analysing it and to me it's all myths. I've just written a hub about my deconversion (which was over a decade).
fred allen posted'
"If you don't believe in God, Why not?"
No reason to.
I can't disprove the existence of a god anymore than a believer can prove a gods existence but I don't believe in any and all religious doctrine . Promoters of religion and their doctrines are primarily phonies pursuing money and/ or power or both. History proves that religion has been used to manipulate and dominate ignorant and gullable people. I choose not to be manipulated. There is definitely good and evil but whether there is reward and punishment at the end of life has not been
Fred ..Fred .Fred. what are we to do with the likes of you. and this constant line of questioning of others ideas on god. if the intent was for the civil exchange of contrary beliefs. i would not draw issue with it. but i doubt that is the reasoning for which you've posted this question. what ever the reasoning behind someones beliefs. let them be theirs without your dissection or opinion.
Aware, aware,aware...he's just asking a question.
Why are you reading motive into it prematurely?
Wait for a while and let him respond to replies and then, if ya like, tear him and his motivation apart.
My goodness! Be patient, it's a virtue...lol
A civil exchange of differing viewpoint is exactly what I was hoping for. To believe in something simply because you were told this is the truth is irrational. To hold something as truth because of feelings is also irrational. I see nothing in tis discussion that resemble the exchange of differing viewpoint. Mostly just name calling. Is that how civilized people relate to one another?
It's a very comforting feeling that somebody can come and do something for you, just ask! And solve all your problems.
Whats so wrong in believing?
I believe I will awake tomorrow? But Its not Certain but probable!
I believe the Sun will rise tomorrow? But its not certain but probable!
I believe science will cure cancer? But its not certain but probable!
I believe we are not alone in the Universe? But its not certain but probable!
I believe in God? But its not certain but probable!
Whats so wrong in believing and being rational?
I believe I will awake tomorrow? But Its not Certain but probable!
I believe the Sun will rise tomorrow? But its not certain but probable!
I believe science will cure cancer? But its not certain but probable!
I believe we are not alone in the Universe? But its not certain but probable!
"I believe in God? But its not certain but probable!"
What are you saying? that you believe in god is probable?.
All 5 are probabilities.
I'm sure you meant this "god thing is probable right?
THAT THERE IS THIS "GOD THING" IS POSSIBLE BUT NOT PROBABLE.
Now there, we have it...:-)
Oh Qwark! Your TOE Dimension is blinding me! Please, let me put my sunglasses on!
You're right Mark. Believing and being rational are not mutually exclusive terms! You can rationally arrive at faith. If you consider all the options for the existence of existence and life you could easily conclude that it is because of intelligent design. Therefore a creator.
One can't rationally arrive at faith. The superstition industry was well aware of this when they raised 'Faith' to a 'Virtue.'
Belief and rationality, on this subject, are diametric opposites.
"I believe in God? But its not certain but probable!
Whats so wrong in believing and being rational?"
Your belief is your business. but there's nothing rational about a creator deity construct. The probability is less than zero and is in imaginary numbers.
Nice try but without any additional information you are just putting forth your personal opinion. My personal opinion is that there is everything rational about a creator diety and the probability is far more than zero and is in believable numbers.
qwark its a paradox that neither can dismiss or prove, the argument can go on and on and still it shall return to the beginning. Those that do believe and those that don't believe in a God, but a rational thought still believes and reasons at the same time.
Merk: I hate to be so literal, but a "thought" i.e. ' "...a rational thought still believes and reasons at the same time." can't believe or reason. Only a conscious entity can do that.
There was no argument to prove.
You were offering probabilities.
The possiblity of a "god thing" exists, but the probability doesn't.
The possibility of a train set becoming bigger and bigger relies on the knowledge of the owner of the train set and his curiosity (belief) to see how big it gets.
The probability of the train set getting bigger depends on the experience the owner of the train set has with the train set.
The probability of God becoming lord of peoples lives is when they realize how big God is and that he is wonderful to experience.
choo choo God
qwark I will love to continue this at another time, for me its time to sleep ZZZzzz Goodnight all
dang that was a long wait. but ty for the reply. was thinking i might owe an apology and jumping the gun . but i see that questioning the rational of others thinking was the primary intent of the question that was purposed .
It's quite alright. It's perfectly natural to question others motives.I take no offense. I have been a believer in the God of the bible for about 27 years. I wondered how others without belief could question the existence of God. Then I asked myself, "Why do I believe in Him?" It occurred to me that when I first believed, it was during a time in my life when I was doing many things that I now consider wrong. I felt I needed to turn my life around so I called out to God in prayer and felt a comfort in doing so. After all it's what most people believe so He must be the real deal. My grandmother gave me a bible and i shut myself up in my basement until I finished the New Testament. As I looked back on that time I concluded that the reason I believed is because I felt the need for some kind of redemption, and because most people say that the God of the bible is the source for redemption. Then I started to seek someone who could give rationality of the non existence of God. I believe I found exactly that. This person is among the brightest minds I have ever come in contact with. He used the scientific method of critical analysis to determine that creation is impossible and that matter IS eternal by default. I was crushed. Then 2 days later I had an epiphany. Readers digest version is this.
1) atoms are invisible to the naked eye
2) the human body is made up of atoms
3) the human body is invisible to the naked eye.
Just because something seems to make perfect sense it doesn't mean it's true. Even if matter is eternal it could never be the cause of life. That is my conclusion in a nutshell. I asked this question because I suspect that most people believe what they believe because someone simply told them or they inherited belief or non belief. I was hoping it would spur people to use their brains and not rely on what people told them or worse yet ... feelings.
flawed logic and lack of scientific understanding here;
yes, individual atoms are invisible to naked eye and mostly consist of empty space, but they do have mass ie made of substance
The body is made of billions of atoms (mostly joined to other atoms to form compounds), and because each atom has substance, you see the effect of billions of them
Of course that is exactly the point! You can't always use simple premises to reach rational conclusions. You have to dig deep!
yes, I've been digging deep researching origins of religions, in particular christianity - very interesting exercise - I would never had believed in first place if I hadn't have been indoctrinated since childhood
hubble shot of the core of the whirlpool galaxy
AWESOME shot. I saw this in a Louis Giglio sermon. The knockout punch was Laminin!
I would be extremely interested in why you determined after your researc you concluded Christianity is not credible. This is the kind of information I was hoping for. I want to challenge my beliefs and see if they can stand against all reason. If it can't I am wasting my time. If it can't the God I believe in isn't God at all. I believe He has stood the test thus far. I need more input.
start looking at the origins of christianity & see what historical evidence there is for Jesus' existence. Look at whether stories like Noah's Ark or Jonah being swallowed by fish really happened. Have you read the bible in incl. old testament without someone telling you what it's supposed to mean? Do you like how women, slaves, animals etc are treated in there?
Here's a very informative read
Sometimes late at night when I'm driving my truck down a lonely stretch of road across the plains, the desert or through the mountains, I feel Gods presence with me. I'm comforted and I feel a sense of belonging. Little things that have happened over the last 2 million miles I've driven have shown me his power and protection. Unbelievers will call them coincedence, but where does it go beyond coincedence? When taken in context. For instance, my being able to stop a truck with a 48 thousand pound load in half the distance normally required to keep from killing a carload of teenagers who inadvertantly pulled out in front of me, without jack-knifing and with no ill effects. These and many more examples I thank God for being with me.
God bless those who pray for blessings.
Thank god for saving a carload of teenagers.
Thank god for not feeding 17,000 children who will starve to death today.
These and many more examples...
I can speak for the teenagers because I was involved, I can't answer the other because I can only do my part. Perhaps it would be better if you didn't drive. Mocking the fact that several teenage lives were saved can not serve you well sir. Think of that the next time you see a big-rig. Because I know God is with me, I would turn the wheel and chance being killed myself rather than someone else. Can you understand that sir?
srwinson- I too have had many coincidental occurrences that I refer to as God sightings. It does serve to strengthen faith. They can easily be dismissed by others but they are precious to me. There will always be people who for one reason or another seek to belittle faith and those who believe. Their statements reveal more about themselves than whatever they comment on. When we respond in kind do we do any service to any involved, including ourselves? As far as sufferrring in the world is concerned, we were warned that it will always be so in a fallen world.
When people go through difficult times many will tend to doubt the existence of God. If you are drawing a blank, perhaps it is because you want to say you believe but can't. Perhaps you want to say you don't believe but can't do that as well. I have read some of what you wrote Kimberly. Both positions are understandable. I pray that you find peace. wherever it may be found. You are precious and have been through alot.
I suppose my lack of belief in a church or a place where people really do reach out to God has to relate back to my experiences with the Methodist church where I grew up. I couldn't for the life of me believe that a supreme being would care about what goes on there in terms of worship. A supreme being might well care for all the people there but that is an entirely different proposition.
Then on television from the USA there was this glass cathedral thing and people parking their cars outside and attaching speakers as if they were at a drive-in. And the selling of the bible and holy water and crucifixes that went on inside. It was all sad and laughable at the same time. Jesus was supposed to have gone to the temple and upturned the benches, etc where money was being used and here in what was then the 20th Century you have things to do with faith being bought and sold in the name of Jesus. Now that seemed wrong. The salesmanship preaching also seemed wrong.
In the end I decided being an Agnostic was the way to go.
The church, any church, seemed so corrupt and so corruptible.
You hear about the terrible things Barnardos, a Catholic organization, did to children in the 1960s which included torture and it is hard to think of a more morally bankrupt organization. Of course I have been told that Barnardos isn't like that today and they in fact cleaned up their act a long time ago but still...
There have been child molestation cover-ups involving Church of England priests in Australia and what has come to light with the Catholics in Ireland and in the USA in this regard in the late 20th Century is now common knowledge. Hell, South Park has sent at least the Catholic bit up and did a nice job of it too.
In the end you say and you hope there is a God so that there is a heaven for the loved one you know who have passed away but it is difficult to go beyond that.
Then there is the great harm the church has done in promoting the overpopulation of the planet. The Muslims are bad and possibly worse in this regard. A lot of it comes from bronze age thinking that was great for the Bronze Age but not so great right now.
Well we are still in the church age. Until the rapture i guess the church age will continue, so its important to ask God to, as we say, plant! you in a church. So often as people we go here and there looking but rarely do we ask even rarer still, do we seek! It took me 3 months of searching, checking out each church in my town and yknow what, i found a church outside of my town, but not I found a church, after all that searching God found me a church.
You see the true walk in christianity is not forcing yourself into a bunch of rules, its not even quitting smoking cold turkey. Its relying on the spirit of God to change you. God says, come into my rest. Indeed we rest, take it easy, chill along the path. When God wants us to quit smoking he will convict us and then we will have to comply or resist. But it is God dealing with us not people corralling us into these narrow christian confines in one night. The christian path is a lifetime of listening and a lifetime of loving God. You cannot love a jailer but you can love a father. You can and must allow God to do all the work, ALL the work. Not by (our) might but by (His) spirit. This is an avenue where prayer comes in but yet again, prayer is not always on your knees. To pray means to ask. I can ask God standing up, tanning by the river, during meals. Constant communication is what God prefers. If i want a church to go to i ask God, if i want truth, ipod, more love - whatever it is, i can ask him. God says, Seek you FIRST the kingdom of God and ALL these things (what things, material things, worldly things, whatever you have need of) will be provided for you. We can rest from the worldly cares and worries and put it all in Gods hands and just seek him. Why, to know him is to love him.
Good luck and have some fun with christianity.
People who have no belief in themselves have to believe in something - I believe in the religion of the rampant rabbit
Cagsil wrote ....
If you don't believe in some religion, then you have no use for a belief in a god.
Isn't that like saying that if I do not eat Kellogs Corn Flakes; then there is no such thing as a corn field?
No. Again, you pipe up with not much to say. Color me oh so shocked?
It sounded that basically simple to me!
Your premise was unfounded. kinda stopped right there in the middle getting ready to say something left it hanging and called it an inteligant statement.
I found it unfullfilling.
BUT ? Thanks anyway!
I think the soul is life; as our body cannot survive without soul or power; when soul is gone we die. Soul is not imaginary; thugh we cannot perceive it. It is born within us while we are in the fetus with the commandment of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; can we see any commandment?
the concept of God is beyond the realm of nature, soul or anything mundane. if you look for God in any of these things the less you will believe. believe is conviction that comes from the spirit realm. your reasoning can't search out God. whether you believe or not don't change anything. your not believing actually is your believing. if you say i don't believe in God , you have just said you believe in God indirectly, why you mentioned the word 'God' why is there such a word if there is no reality of it. come to think about it anything there no word for actually is not in existence. if there is such a word like God , then there is the reality of such word. i believe in God
GOD revealed himself to me and drawn me to him. I know and walk with GOD. Because GOD drew me to himself, I then sought after GOD with all my heart, soul, mind from my youth and up. GOD chose, for his own reasons and he shown me in a vision the other side of death on A.D. August 1, 1982 a Sunday morning. I experienced this and is forever imprinted in my heart soul spirit. So my christian brothers and sisters do not get frustrated with the others because they will never understand unless GOD reveals himself to them like he did to us. Just keep on keeping on in being faithful to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Thank you. Go in peace.
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