Article explaining some of the difficulties with the bible - translations, original manuscripts, different meanings in different times, how many books in the bible depends on what sect, people selected which books go in the bible, etc
http://web.archive.org/web/200801121843 … bible.html
The Creator-God Allah YHWH created this Universe with the commandment "be" and lo! the Big Bang ensued and the life started evolving naturally under principles which are always there in the "language" of principles we may describe them "written in nature" symbolically.
Man needed guidance to achieve the purpose of life and evolution; for that end the principles relating Ethical, Moral and Spiritual realms , we can describe them here for the purpose of understanding as " the book/system of natural guidance".
A part from the book/system was revealed to the Prophets Messengers in different parts of the world for the people in their languages as suited to their capabilities at that time; the people were entrusted with its security; if they failed to do it the same was revealed again with appropriate explanation suited to the needs of man.
Bible means "Book"; I understand this is the reality of the Bible; in its present form it is the Quran- the book of all times and all places of the Globe. This is in brevity
What is in your mind? Please express yourself fully; I don't mind if somebody differs with me
The Hebrews still have their ancient "Book" and it has not been translated. There are translated versions that you'll find on the internet.
There was no need to translate the Hebrew scriptures. They are written in Hebrew. They read Hebrew and know what it says, without explanation.
The Quran is nothing like the ancient book.
That is actually quite incorrect. First of all, a significant amount of the Hebrew Bible was written in Biblical Aramaic. Secondly, you basically don't know what you are talking about. The Tanakh is the word for the canon that makes up the Hebrew Bible. The Torah refers to the 5 books of Moses. Which one you are referring to is in question, as the Tanakh was compiled and and translated in 450BCE by a group of "great men" according to the Talmud. The Torah is academically believed to be a synthesis of documents from a small number of originally independent sources, such as the creation story coming from the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh. If you read the Torah, or the Old Testament for that matter, you will see 3 very different writing styles and actual stories with 3 differently named creators: YHWH (Jahwist), Elohim (Elohist), and Jehovah.
* The Jahwist (or J) – written c 950 BCE. The southern kingdom's (i.e. Judah) interpretation. It is named according to the prolific use of the name "Yahweh" (or Jaweh, in German, the divine name or Tetragrammaton) in its text.
* The Elohist (or E) – written c 850 BCE. The northern kingdom's (i.e. Israel) interpretation. As above, it is named because of its preferred use of "Elohim" (a generic title used to describe a god, God, or gods).
* The Deuteronomist (or D) – written c 650–621 BCE. Dating specifically from the time of King Josiah of Judah and responsible for the book of Deuteronomy as well as Joshua and most of the subsequent books up to 2 Kings.
* The Priestly source (or P) – written during or after the exile, c 550–400 BCE. So named because of its focus on Levitical laws.
The early books were oral stories passed down through centuries, until finally transcribed, as opposed to being written at one time and then handed down intact throughout centuries. A vast history existed before Judaism ever existed, and contributed to it, Zoroastrianism being the most direct.
Thanks for the information
Is it correct Deborah Sexton?
The Hebrew scripture was written in Aramaic and Hebrew. Mostly Hebrew.
The Hebrews speak and write both languages. My husband is Hebrew.
I see you are doing internet searches.
Canonical is Roman and Kenon is Greek meaning rule. It is not a Hebrew word.
What does that have to do with anything?
The False Apostle Paul's work was left out of Hebrew scripture"
And the Hebrew Gospel is "The Gospel according to the Hebrews.
It never was in the Hebrew scripture. The Gospel in the New Testament was copied from it. It was never a part of Hebrew scripture.
The Tanakh, contains the Torah, The Prophets and the writings.
It is you who doesn't know what he is talking about. My husband moved with his parents, when he was in his middle teens, from Israel, where he was born.
Many years they passed it down orally.
Yahshua even taught from Isaiah.
I was speaking of the Hebrew scripture, not Zoroastrianism
You do realize that Arabic is not Aramaic.
The Hebrews spoke Aramaic before the Arabs did.
Arabic comes from Aramaic
More Arabs speak it because there are more Arabs than Hebrews.
Better find some correct sources to copy from.
Are you expecting us to all learn fluent Hebrew so we can read the bible? Or trusting someone to translate into English? Anyone that's learnt a foreign language will know that many things do not translate well. Even reading "old english" like Shakespeare is confusing.
I don't expect you to do anything.
Anyone who knows Hebrew and English will be able to translate it well.
But my point is that the Hebrews have their ancient scripture although there are translations.
Much of the Hebrew writings have been kept from general public and non-Jews
The Hebrew scripture contain several more books than the English
I can copy from my BA and MA in History from UNT and UT respectively if you would like. There is no "original" copy of the Hebrew Bible.
In the last response you state that "there are translations", yet in the original thread you stated "there is no reason to translate the Hebrew scriptures...they are written in Hebrew." Yet, you contradict yourself. Simple logic young lady. So tell me, being that I had to write a 180 page thesis on the evolution of the Christian scriptures that took almost a year to write and defend it in front of 5 people PHDs, what educational background you have with regards to your viewpoint? Mine are hanging on my wall next to my computer.
Obviously, my grammar is lacking this morning...my apologies.
I was stating that there are English, Greek etc translations, but Hebrews have no need for a translation because they speak, read, and write Hebrew.
For someone who says they have all this knowledge, you seem to have a hard time understanding English.
Or you look at a post that refers to another and you don't also read the other post..
I have not contradicted anything.
Let me make it clear for you so you can understand.
1. Other countries and languages need a translation of the Hebrew scripture and they do exist
2. The Hebrews have no need to translate the Hebrew scriptures. So in Israel and Judea, there are no translations used.
You might want to read my post again.
I said that the Hebrews have kept their scripture. Others, not Hebrews have translated it
Translations are found even on the internet. They do not say what the ancient Hebrew scriptures say.
Even the Greek Septuagint translated the Hebrew scriptures incorrectly.
I think my Hebrew relatives know more about their history, than your 180 page thesis (by the way, big deal It took you a year to write it because you don't understand it! LOL)
People rarely know their own history, evidenced in the Tea Party movement. You can go with your uncle, I'll stick with my years of education. BTW - Hebrew refers to a language, not a people...and Judea is a historical location that is not in existence anymore.
so really, the old testament is less than 3000 years old, writing about 7000 years prior. How can anyone expect to take all the details literally then? I don't even know who my great grandparents are - how the heck did people in the bible know exactly how many years each person lived etc?
You are very right; it is only conjecture
and yet one of the oldest non religious works is homers, the illiad, written in greek yet people read its pages and it is taught in schools and nobody says oh how can we trust this old book.
Yet a book that belongs to God we cannot see how God would interrupt the flow of nature to protect his book?
have a little faith
Muhammad died in 632. The earliest written material of his life is the sira of Ibn Ishaq (written in 750), but Ibn Ishaq's work was lost. They do not have it.
They only have parts of it available in quotation by Ibn Hisham ( but written in 834). The hadith versions of Muhammad that are around are dated even later in time.
There are six authoritative collections of hadith: Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Maja, Abu Dawud, al-Tirmidhi, and al-Nisai.
All of them are dated between 200 and 300 years after Muhammad’s' death.
As for the Modern versions, they are a re-canting the other versions, with political embellishments.
re-written to try to make the sections flow smoothly together and make sense, but they were somewhat careless doing it because they have allowed Government views from various leaders, Islamic hero's and politics to enter into it.
It is a loose interpretation of the Profit.
nothing more but A beautiful story, and an interesting read.
You may refute it with your arguments, serially, if you have any.
I don't need to refute it. Pure conjecture is realized when seen. There is no wisdom in the words you used to explain. Nonsense is nothing but ambiguity, like that of religion's text.
I don't think there is a "real" Bible. There are a number if scriptures with different authors and the current Bible is one collection of them.
I was raised Catholic. I have the Catholic bible, which is the original Canon.
it does. It has the apocrypha books. I have them in my 1611 bible. they are not canon it is easy to know why. there are some pretty stark contradictions to canon bible in doctrine.
maccabees says we can pray to the dead.
The flow of the books does not feel the same. When a bible is read the flow is continuous throughout (as if one person or spirit wrote them all)
the canon was based on
-christ - all scripture of the NT had to bear witness of Jesus.
-authenticity - who wrote them (jesus disciples) and jewish bible was never a question of authenticity
-date - all should be before 100ad and between such and such ocurrances. If john mentions pauls demise then he wrote it after paul was murdered for example
-doctrine - there can be no contradiction of doctrines. All must support the other. Hence there is no scripture which is of private interpretation which means all scripture flows back and forth, the OT which is supported by the NT.
I talked to a preacher once who was adamant that his "authority" came from the Bible because the Bible is from God. I asked him if I could see his Bible. He handed it to me.
"Now I've got your 'authority'. What do you think of that?" I said.
He just about peed himself in anger. I just walked away.
With so many versions, it's hard to imagine one can have more "authority" in it than another.
I wonder with 30000+ denominations; they cannot agree on one text of the Bible. In fact they add their own words of "wisdom" into the mouth of the god of their bible who perhaps did not have any; that makes the "versions"
considering that Islam has 6 versions considered official of the Hadith, and all the various Translations have split Muslims apart and they have been fighting wars between themselves over it ever sense?
while sucking the rest of the world into their separate agendas and causes, it is odd to me that you would only see Bible versions as non agreement.
Clean up your own Muslim back yard first Parr. so far I see no Peaceful majority of your sects rising up and demanding terror to stop..?
A true profit should never be re-explained (there is a difference between re-explained and just re-translated, please remember that) and your 6 official versions have "re-explained him 6 times!"
To me that’s 6 chances to promote peaceful existence in this world and so far no Muslim majority stands.
But to you the Bible does not agree? To hell with Terror and stopping it, or standing in unity as a group in the world- helping to stop it, because it is all about the Perfect peaceful belief, the beautiful valid book? its pure crap Parr.
Hamas and Al-Kida shoot rockets Parr, not throw back Bible books of various non-agreement, to counter beliefs. To me, You either believe in peace or you do not?
Even you have to designate a signature; "I am peaceful Muslim"
Your sects are contrary to your preached vision of world existence?
Quran has only one origianl text whatever the denomination; no more versions
And when was that written Paarsurrey and by whom? Wasn't parts of the Qu'ran written down a full decade after Muhammad's death by the memories of his followers?
The reason there is no peace is because the Qu'ran speaks more of war and violence! You can't promote peace if your "hole book" is full of hate and murder! The people are just following the word from the book they feel is a revelation from their God!
Both the Quran and the KJV holds the truth... problem is that too much politics has crept into them and no one knows how to read them without imposing "Personal Interpretation" upon them !!
I think you can read the Quran and understand the verses from the conext of the verses, some preceding and som following verses and it will be clear to you.
I have started a thread on principle of correct commentary of Quran; that could help
there are no 30,000 denominations.. plz to reveal url to such. There are 23 main denominations and since people do not like denominational church there are some undenominational churches. All this is okay as God revels his truth in layers and at sundry times to his believers.
Priesthood authority comes from God through prophecy, revelation, and the laying on of hands, not the bible. Although it is a foundation for faith and a standard of living, it is more important to hear the word of God through the holy Spirit and interperted by authorized servents of God such as prophets and apostles.
exactly - there are numerous interpretations in English. Translating word for word results in fragmented gibberish, and then the interpreter puts their own spin on it to try and make it readable (and then the christians take each word literally). The jehovah witnesses bible is similar to the chrisitan bible - they have adjusted words here and there to suit their doctrines
the only thing we have to work around in the king james bible are the tweaks the catholic bishops made. like the word hell for instance. But God is revealing those to people who care enough to seek His face. We have strongs concordance to show us the greek meanings for words, we have the interlinerary to show us the originals in hebrew and greek. The king james even has italicized words that depict they are not in the original but are added by the translators, the NIV has no italicized words. There is no problem to understand the bible if one wants to.
Like us, He will not give pearls to swine either.
The NIV contains a huge amount of alterations. I am convinced it has because of the the freemasons who worked on it hort and wescott that it is a half way step to a jesuit catholic bible and a work that will be completed somewhere down the road.
Truly the king james is the only bible to read.
no whining now that it is too hard to read.. I can do all things through... through what... christ jesus that strengthens me. (Philippians 4:13)
Oh I have the REAL bible, an angle flew down from heaven to show it to me and let me transcribe it before returning it to heaven so I suggest you follow me if you want to follow the REAL teachings of the bible
The bible since its inception never once changed in its purpose, beginning with the Hebrews.
It is the book that binds men unto death.
To understand what I mean take a look at those who believe in and trust it.
They forever change the meaning of its writings to suit whatever seems appropriate to themselves.
Thus causing the conflict that result in death both within and among themselves.
To truly understand these writings you need only to understand the unwritten, spoken universal language called Truth.
History begs to differ in terms of what scroptures were permited or suppressed. The church has changed its purposed rather a lot and selected scriptures for that reason. e.g. tp suppress the idea of female clergy, to suppress the idea of saints performing 'magic'.
Kess - Actually, there wasn't a Bible with the Hebrews. The Bible as you know it, is many different things. The Jewish canon (agreed upon list of books) was finalized in 70 BC with the "Men of the Great Assembly", according to the Talmud. The Jewish canon is not the same as the Christian version of the Old Testament. "the Hebrew Bible ends with the Book of Chronicles, which describes Israel restored to the Promised Land and the Temple restored in Jerusalem; in the Hebrew Bible God's purpose is thus fulfilled and the divine history is at an end, according to Dispensationalism and Supersessionism (see Jewish Eschatology for Jewish beliefs on the subject). In the Christian Old Testament the Book of Malachi is placed last, so that a prophecy of the coming of the Messiah leads into the birth of the Christ in the Gospel of Matthew."
The Christian canon wasn't finalized as you know it until the Council of Trent in 1547. The inclusion of several Apocryphal books were included at various areas and minus several of the books, primarily Revelations, in others.
In response- things are more complicated than you think. Open a book and stop answering your own questions in a mirror.
Thanks for the information.
Do you agree with the contents Deborah Sexton.
Revelation is like someone on LSD wrote it, so can see why they were reluctant to include it. People that assume their bible has always been together as one book might be surprised at how much they have to put their trust in humans in years gone by, making decisions about what stays and what goes
Revelation is like someone on LSD wrote it ????
Not at all. Much of the symbolism was interpreted in the Book of Daniel.
Proper understanding of Daniel is necessary before we can even begin to comprehend the message in Revelation.
Gabriel interpreted these visions to Daniel. They require no further interpretation.
All of the visions as described in the book of Daniel ...
except for the last couple of verses (C. 12) were pertaining to the "First" four kingdoms that had dominion over "That" Hebrew Nation that came to "Their" end of Days in 135 to 138 AD.
Three of the four were identified as Babylon Med-o-Persian and Greece. Greece is prophesied to break up into four smaller kingdoms out of which the fourth shall rise.
The small kingdom of Rome was virtually unknown at the time of these visions.
We can not "Interpret" messages that are given 600 years later and allow them to change the true meaning of those that were given to Daniel!
When we put these prophesy in their proper timeline; Revelation is quite simply to understand.
It is only when we refuse to accept certain truths that the message is lost.
yes but it fits perfectly as only someone who knows by the spirit of God and something that the cannonizers were directed of God to include.
the cannon is complete and whole just as God intended.
We christians can figure it out and we did not come to the conclusion that lsd was involved. wrong again.
Actually I think that you are right AND wrong !
Those things that the devil intends for evil... God has a way of making it work out for good.
The "cannonizers" ( a few of them) did all that they could do to corrupt the whole system.
BUT ?? there was enough of Gods influence in the whole situation that enough of the TRUTH was hidden right there in plain sight.
It is all that "Personal" interpretation that his message is hidden behind.
yep, no brainer. You don't have to use your brains at all with religion - just blindly accept that it's right
see, i told you. Had you bothered to read my words..
"the cannon is complete and whole just as God intended"
I said God was in control. How you can argue with that is beyond me. Perhaps you did not use your brains enough when you were in religion? or you wouldn't be thinking about blind acceptance, now that's a no brainer.
Of course it is right. My God is not so small He will not protect His word.
Lets say you were writing a book and you sent it off to an editor, when it got back to you would you not check it over carefully? Of course you would. So did God. This is not blind acceptance this is christian fact. You cannot take miracles out of christianity; christianity is all about miracles, it is one great big miracle.
Geeze I wish i were better equipped to get in on these discussions. The only Book I know is my Bible and that is THE book for me
Do you realy know it! or do you know where it is?
Can you read it without a foreknowledge of what you think that it says ??
Don't mean to sound rude "BUT" time is getting shorter than anyone thinks !!!!
I agree Jerami... it's getting very short! I hope all who believe do know the Bible!
Study to show yourself approved!!!!
I do study libby. Im just leery of studying other so called "books" cause I feel that it could be opening a playground for Satan to play on
I agree and disagree???
Study to show yourself prepaired.
It is getting ready to hit us in the face ( "For real" )
And when it does we should know that it was unavoidable.
Cause we were warned 2500 years ago; exactly what was going to happen if we do not turn in the right direction.
ALL THAT i CAN SAY IS STock UP ON PEANUT BUTTER AND NOODLES.
And don't let anyone know where you are at. OR stand up like a cowboy/girl and take it like a "man".
Those that attempt to save their life shall loose it and those that give their life away shall save it!
I'm just saying that times are getting ready to get really bad. TODAY is as good as it will ever get concerning LIFE on EARTH.
I dont' doubt that one bit Jerami! It's going to get bad!!! One should study to know what to look for! Revelations reveals quite a bit of things to come... and so does Daniel and a few other good books!
One should really read up and figure out what is fact!
No, time is the same length it has always been since man's beginnings here. Religious advocates have been predicting the end for thousands of years before now. But I'm sure you guys have inside knowledge! LOL!
yep we have read the "back of the book". We Win!!!!!! Satan loses!!!!
Yea but the line down the middle has been a bit blured.
What if your teacher was working for the other side?
Oh Oh Oh that really is something to think about ???
I never thought about it that simplistically before ????
Today is a blessed day ! Thank ya Lord !!!!
If you are asking if I can quote it word for word, honestly, I cant. But with continuous study i will get to that point
It is really SOooo easy to understand!
Hard part..... FORGET EVERYTHING THAT ANYONE HAS EVER TAUGHT TO YOU
Read Daniel with new eyes.
It is all right there if you can "Delete" every "Interpretation" that you have been taught about what you are "Supposed" to see when you read it!!
Read it like it was a legal document! HOW MUCH DO i PAY AND WHAT DO i GET??
Read it as if it means exactly what it says !!! NEW concept ?
What if it doesn't need any private interpretation ??
What if the truth has been hideing in plain sight FOR 2000 YEARS?????
Here is the "real" bible for ya; http://hubpages.com/hub/Onus-ipedia
Onusonus this hub in my all time top five. I think it's great!
The masoretic texts are 100% reliable. They were a sect that was meticulously responsible for keeping the holy scriptures accurate. These are used for the OT. The received textus is what the disciples and apostles of Jesus Christ himself were passing around to the 'early church' (not the church of rome)
These are the texts the King James Bible uses.
The translators of the King James were translators indeed. Specialists and brainiacs, knowing many languages fluently, influencial in their time, a time of no tv to waste away the hours, these men dedicated their lives to knowing about languages. That is why they were hired, King James hired the best of the time, each having a long list of credentials. Plus 47 translators who met twice each day. The translators worked in 6 groups at 3 major universities. 2 groups worked at Oxford, 2 groups worked at Cambridge and the last 2 groups did their work at Westminster.
But you can google this information.
Why is the bible the truth of God.. it predates mohammadism by hundreds of years of which mohammadism contradicts bible truths.
The Bible is a collection of 66 books written by at least 40 human authors. Christianity, which is based on the Bible, is the only religion that claims a resurrected Savior. The Bible is a work of long compilation since the writings of its books span at least 1500 years and no contradiction.. uh uh don't you go arguing now, its true and you know it. Personally i have shot down many false unsaved ideas and others have corrected many unsaved wrong concepts of the bible.
There are so many more terrific reasons i could fill this page, but i won't.
100% reliable, huh? Does that also mean error free? Why the huge discrepancies in geneology then?
http://hubpages.com/hub/Bible-Contradic … y-of-Jesus
I have the holy bible and it's the real thing. The New Testament of the bible is for how we should live today.
God would rather talk to Ya than for you to read a book about him. BUT ...
I guess he takes all that we are willing to give him.
I Know Nothing! But I think a lot of stuff like that!
I like that Bro, But we do have to read the bible in order to know His voice
Correct. "WE" NEED to read it for ourselves instead of depending upon someone else to tell us what it says.
Cause we know how "THEY" do??.
They are goina get something wrong.
If I am going to be wrong? I want it to be my fault.
Yes we do have it and we should read the bible.
But we don't need someone else to read it and tell us what it says.
Do we really trust "THEM" enough to bet our soul on it?
If I am going to be wrong? I want it to be my fault and not "THEIRS"
In church many times something is said that should not have been said, I go to them, 90% of the time it does no good, sometimes it starts problems,
but in Romans the Bible says we have all knowledge, it is talking to a group, so we do need others to discuss the word with, for some these Hub pages may work, for me right now I need the church, I have disagreements often, but if they let me voice my opinion, then I may be planting a seed for others to water, I can get a seed from them
We gotta always remember where Our getting place is.
Actually... the way God works, Just about any where could be a getting place; cause we are always on the move and we never have too much to carry us through.
gotta agree every ones getting place has to be different or we could not come up with the different ideas,
one can read a scripture and it tell him one thing and some one else the same scripture tell something else, that is what is so neat about the whole thing
lost?...well then we should go and find it...
When you find the original in the origianl lanquage; you come back.
Quran has renovated it; just read Quran and you will have everything essential in it.
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