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Jesus- Forgive them as they know not what they do" Doesnt work.

  1. mohitmisra profile image61
    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago

    Jesus- Forgive them as they know not what they do" Doesnt work.

    The cosmos takes things into its own hands and even Jesus saying forgive them does not work.The cosmos does not tollerate and insult to the saints who are doing gods work. What do you think?

  2. gamergirl profile image60
    gamergirlposted 8 years ago

    I think you mistake "the cosmos" with a supernatural being.

    As well, taking a single phrase from the Bible out of context to suit your own wishes demeans the meaning of the passage.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2023

    Here is the passage from Luke to which you refer.  Please read it in it's completion before you continue attempting to discuss it.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      When I say cosmos it means god. Please just answer the question and refrain from personall attacks.This single phrase is very important.If you cannot answer stay away.An intelligent conversation is what is required.

      Enlightened poet Mohit.K.Misra

      1. weblog profile image60
        weblogposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Personal attacks - You're inviting the insults. I've been watching in some forum messages. You're calling yourself the enlightened poet. Nobody is here to know just who are you. Your profile summary is shown on the left side, your avatar is there along with profile name. You don't even need to put your signature like this (Enlightened poet Mohit.K.Misra) in forum messages smile

        1. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Just stick to the topic please.

  3. drummer boy profile image59
    drummer boyposted 8 years ago

    given the fact that God and Jesus are one, how do you figure he insults himself?

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      No I am talking about humans who insulted Jesus.

  4. gamergirl profile image60
    gamergirlposted 8 years ago

    Mohit, you did not read what I typed to you.

    You took a phrase from an incredibly long book and are trying to debate it.

    It would be like looking at an epic ballad and debating the use of one single musical note in the middle of it.

    I'm serious, if you read the whole chapter, which you can see at the link I provided, you'll understand more.

  5. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    Daniel 9: 18-19'ish

    For we are not presenting our petitions before You based on our righteous acts, but based on Your abundant compassion.  Lord, hear!  Lord, forgive! 

    John 12: 38-40

    Even though He had performed so many signs in their presence, they did not believe in Him.  But this was to fulfill the world of Isaiah the prophet, who said: 

    Lord, who has believed our message?  And who has the arm of the Lord been revealed to? 

    This is why they were unable to believe, because Isaiah also said:  He has blinded thier eyes
    and hardened thier hearst, so tat they would not see with thier eyes or understand with thier hearts, and be converted and I would heal them. 

    42: Nevertheless, many did believe in him among the rulers, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, so they would not be banned from the synagogue.  For they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Nice knowledge but it still doesnt answer the question.
      regards
      Mohit

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        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        It answers why you are so blind and unable to be humbled, because you would rather have praise from man then from God.  Here you are lost, but you can be found again if you could listen to those around you who are doing thier best to make you see the things that you are doing that you can not see for yourself. 

        But hey...what we can all see about you is not fault of your own.  So, yes God will forgive you of the things you do not know.  It is the very blessing that saves man of thier transgressions because in the vastness of the Universe, many stumbling blocks are placed in the path of those who seek to be righteous, but without accepting help from those who really want you to see, you left on your own to dwell in the messes you create yourself. 

        This is not an attack Mohit, not an attack.  smile

        1. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          The question is were the people who insulted Jesus forgiven of their karma because Jesus said forgive them for they know not what they do and not wether people believed or disbelieved in Jesus.

          1. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Like the story goes of Sai Baba.Many from the village would mock and laugh at him and call him a mad fakir.It is said till date their ancestors suffer beacuse of this insult.

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            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Yes they were forgiven, he even forgave Judas.  He forgave Peter, he forgave the adulteress, he forgave all man of thier sins and the jews for having him crucified, because Jesus knows the many afflictions that fall upon man. 

            Jesus forgives because there are things that we do that we don't know, we don't always know when our actions hurt other people, we don't always know when we are being decieved, and besides that we live on Earth were "Satan" rules the system of life and people are easily taken advatage of and Jesus knows this. 

            This is why I forgive, this is why I don't care if people believe or disbelieve, this is why I can find a reason for everyone to be forgiven, this is why I understand. 

            I speak to bring people away from believing that they have to act or speak in such and such a way because God's love is accepting of all people great and small. 

            God forgives the man who says I do not need to repent, why...because I am certain that that person found no folley in his ways because he was hardened by the inequities of man, not God. 

            smile

            1. mohitmisra profile image61
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Yes he did forgive but does it work or do the people who insulted him were  they spared of the karmic consequences.smile

              1. mohitmisra profile image61
                mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                I was aslo trying to help earlier and not harm you,hope you understand that.

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                sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                They were spared by the compassion and unconditional love that Jesus had/has to offer. 
                I am pretty sure that the guilt the people felt afterwards was enough.  smile and I don't believe that Jesus required this of them either, but in his heart of God, he just knows that these people acted out of fear or ignorance or of things they just don't understand.  smile

                1. mohitmisra profile image61
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  This is a nice answer.Thank you.
                  No enlightened one wants to harm anyone as he sees all in himself.The universe teaches with pain and suffering.Like love pain can be a superb teacher.smile

                  1. 0
                    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    True, but nothing compares to unconditional love!  Thanks Mohit.

                  2. mohitmisra profile image61
                    mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    I have written this couplet,
                    Absolute delight and utter confusion,
                    From the moment of our fusion.

                    It is normal to be confused after a spiritual experience and it took me years to come to terms with mine.This is in regards to your vision.  big_smile

              3. TheCapn profile image58
                TheCapnposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                A strict by the book interpretation of the Bible leaves very little room for karma. So I'd say it all depends on circumstance. If you go by the book, god could punish someone then forgive them, or just forgive them outright with no punishment, it all depends on how god chooses to deal with the transgressor.

                1. mohitmisra profile image61
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  Superb answer.
                  regards
                  Mohit

              4. Inspirepub profile image87
                Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                I haven't seen anything to suggest that the purpose of forgiveness is to spare people the karmic consequences of their actions.

                It really doesn't make sense to say "did it work?" when you are talking about forgiveness.

                Forgiveness doesn't have a function. Humans forgive, or they don't forgive. God always forgives. There is no way to forgive and have it "not work".

                Your assertion that generations of people are 'punished' because an ancestor 'insulted' a saint makes no sense whatsoever, which means that the notion of 'forgiveness' from the saint removing the 'punishment' also makes no sense.

                Saints do not get insulted. Feeling insulted is the mark of an unenlightened being.

                Imagining that saints feel insulted and therefore wreak revenge is projecting human weaknesses on enlightened beings.

                With regard to the Biblical references to karma -I have spoken before about the "unto the seventh generation" verse in the Bible being descriptive, not proscriptive.

                Actions have consequences. The impact of one violent drunkard will be felt by their children, and therefore by their children's children, and so on, and it WILL take about 7 generations of people of goodwill doing their very best to remove all the destructive patterns that the one individual set in motion.

                Likewise, the impact of the Holocaust on survivors has been documented in their children born after the war, and the grandchildren, and it will be several more generations before that impact is no longer visible.

                That doesn't mean those seven generations are being "punished". It's not as though the Jews were in concentrations camps because they had insulted someone.

                We all start our lives being born in a particular place and having experiences of the particular people who raise us. Those people are shaped by at least the previous seven generations of imperfect beings who came before. That is not punishment, it is just life. Forgiveness doesn't enter into it.

                Jenny

                1. mohitmisra profile image61
                  mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                  The capn has put it superbly.
                  A strict by the book interpretation of the Bible leaves very little room for karma. So I'd say it all depends on circumstance. If you go by the book, god could punish someone then forgive them, or just forgive them outright with no punishment, it all depends on how god chooses to deal with the transgressor.
                  Like I said and repeat,the cosmos or god takes over.Prophets have gone to war and killed many people.Saints do get insluted -they are god-man.He is still human and feels pain and insult like anyone else.The biggest mistake you can make is to insult a saint as his curse has a lot of power.Saints do not attack but they do defend themselves.You have no idea what a saint is and how he feels.There are times they have to fight for the truth for justice.
                  Like the Sikh saints say-when all else fails then it is okay to pick up the sword. Also known as the warrior saints.Shiva was often called to fight to combat evil and so was Krishna,Rama and many others.
                  Mohit

                  1. Inspirepub profile image87
                    Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                    I have studied the book in translation from the original texts, and I disagree with this characterisation. Most modern day Christians operate on a version of what the Bible means which cannot be supported by reference to the original text. The fundamentalist "by the book" interpretation is based on a woeful ignorance of Biblical studies, archaeology, and history, and owes more to the political needs of the Roman Catholic Church after the fall of the Roman Empire than it does to anything any prophet ever actually said.



                    You have been given bad advice about how the Christian God and the notion of forgiveness operate.



                    I am not sure how these statement are relevant.



                    At the time that he is feeling insulted, he is human, not saint. God-Consciousness allows for no insult.



                    This is a primitive, superstitious belief system that has no place in enlightened discourse. There are no curses in God-Consciousness, only blessings. Wrath is one of the seven deadly sins, which kill God-Consciousness.



                    I have as much idea as you do, o enlightened one. smile



                    A person who does not believe in you, or who says rude things about you, hardly qualifies as "evil", LOL. I am sure Shiva's sword was put to much more noble use than petulant posturing over perceived persecution.

                    Jenny

  6. Misha profile image76
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    The only way to stop troll is to stop talking to him smile

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Ak -47 stay out if you cannot answer .You are more than welcome to try.

  7. Uninvited Writer profile image83
    Uninvited Writerposted 8 years ago

    It sounds to me that you don't want any discussion and any people who disagree with you either don't know enough or are insulting you... That makes people not want to have an intelligent discussion with you.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Please just stick to the question and refrain from personal attacks.

  8. gamergirl profile image60
    gamergirlposted 8 years ago

    उन्होंने है जो प्रबुद्ध विनम्र होना चाहिए , बुद्धिमान और देखभाल .

    Psst:  plug the above phrase into the Google translator.

    http://translate.google.com

    It's Hindi.  (For the benefit of Mohit, who has an English problem.)

    1. 0
      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      very nice!  smile

    2. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I am the highest ranked English poet for 2006,in the top 10 religious and inspirational poetry books ,top 10 in Philosophy-Religious books,top 10 in Spiritualism.If I have a problem in English ranked 28 out of some 58000 poetry books there are a lot of people you should correct before me.Please stick to the topic I am sick and tired of your interuptions.

      Enlightened Poet Mohit.K.Misra

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        sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I enjoy her interuptions and input,  I have learned from her.  smile

        1. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          It just ruins a thread like so many others have been because of foolish ego problems.

          1. 0
            sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            I think you are mistaken, diversity breeds good threads. Are you expecting to teach people things they already know? Or do you wish that they only understand you?  Seems quite unfair circumstances.  Anyways, everyone came equiped with the id, it, and ego. 

            smile

            1. mohitmisra profile image61
              mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              You guys just ruin every single thread.There should have been more Jyotis and sweetpies rather than game girl and you.Then this place would be a nice place for exchange of knowledge.Right now its full of apprentices like you, game girl of course ak- 47 who do not  have much knowledge yet speak as if they do.

      2. Misha profile image76
        Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Told ya Charlotte smile
        Third worst poet and the most useless troll in the universe just thrives for your attention smile

        1. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          AK-47 you are sooooooooooooo cheap.

          1. mohitmisra profile image61
            mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

            Its obvious since you lack knowledge to participate intelligently this is the only way you can get involved-look at me please look at me.

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              sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

              Please Mohit, if you don't like what they say then ignore it and move on.  It wont kill you to just turn the other cheek.  Plus I think it isn't very nice to keep calling Misha AK-47.  Misha is one of the sweetest people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.  smile

              1. Misha profile image76
                Mishaposted 8 years ago in reply to this

                Thank you Sandy smile
                I sure can say the same about you smile

  9. weblog profile image60
    weblogposted 8 years ago

    I think he would never stop calling himself a great poet and also enlightened smile

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      All enlightened ones includingJesus,Shivs,zaratushtra,Buddha etc claimed enlightenment .W

    2. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      All enlightened ones including Jesus,Shivs,zaratushtra,Buddha etc claimed enlightenment .When you get enlightened and get ranked in in the world you will also be able to say it bacuse it is truth.Till then it is something you will not be able to dream of doing in your wildest imagination.
      Enlightened Poet Mohit.K.Misra

  10. Misha profile image76
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    O, now he triple posted about being enlightened troll big_smile

    Hoja Nasreddin (sp?) Used to say - No matter how many times one says halva, it won't become sweet in your mouth big_smile

    Sorry for bad translation - it sounds much better originally.

  11. gamergirl profile image60
    gamergirlposted 8 years ago

    Hey, it's not my fault if he wants to make generalizations regarding the Bible without bothering to read the passages.

    By the way, I verified his ranking, but you only get that result if you narrow down through five categories to a results section of about 8,000 ebooks, none of which were written by prolific authors.  Anyway-

    To answer you AGAIN regarding your initial post, when Jesus makes the statement "Forgive them as they know not what they do" he is speaking plaintively to God, His Father and part of the Trinity of His Selves.  He, even on the cross, begs for the mercy of God to fall on humanity.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I never said Jesus was not speaking to god,it obviously meant he was.You cannot understand a question how will you be able to answer it? You still speak with authority what a sham you are.
      go to Best Book Buys soft copy,soft copy,soft copy and not ebooks.

  12. gamergirl profile image60
    gamergirlposted 8 years ago

    I gave you an absolute honest answer to your question.

    You never said God, you said cosmos.  Different animals entirely, Mo.

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Jesus- Forgive them as they know not what they do" Doesnt work. What do you think?

      1. mohitmisra profile image61
        mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        and sorry you were trying to be honest and I should not have been harsh.

  13. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    Yeah Jenny!

    Also, Mohit, prophets and saints don't seek revenge nore do they seek praise, they give and forgive, love and bless etc...  smile

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I repeat,they are generally peacefull and nonviolent.Push them too hard and they get angry.Then they punish to teach.

  14. Misha profile image76
    Mishaposted 8 years ago

    "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6) smile

    AK-74

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      sandra rinckposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Great way to execute that saying.  smile

  15. Inspirepub profile image87
    Inspirepubposted 8 years ago

    I think the question of a "by the book" interpretation has been well and truly killed in the "Bible Contradictions" thread. The vengeful and capricious tribal god of the early books does not sit well with the peace-and-universal-brotherhood God of the New Testament.

    I can't imagine anyone writing in this forum would be advocating the primitive, arbitrary, childishly bad-tempered God of the Pentateuch should be taken seriously. Even the avowed Christians.

    Jenny

    1. TheCapn profile image58
      TheCapnposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      They have to because of what's in their book. If they begin to doubt the Bible or start to think that maybe stories like Adam and Eve were more metaphorical then it opens up anything in the Bible to be taken loosely or metaphorically. Maybe a virgin didn't give birth to a child, perhaps Jesus didn't walk on water or rise from the grave after being executed. Without the preposterously unbelievable aspects of the Bible, all a Christian has is a book of philosophy.

      1. Inspirepub profile image87
        Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Believing the story of Adam and Eve is literally true is a cute throw-back belief which only holds a significant proportion of believers in the USA, for some odd reason.

        Because 50% of internet users are from the US, and 45% of US citizens believe God created humans in the current form less than 10,000 years ago, the internet gives a false picture of what the majority of modern Christians actually believe. Creationism is simply not taken seriously by anyone but a tiny minority of crackpots anywhere else in the world.

        I know several Christian ministers who have said that belief in the literal existence and/or divinity of Jesus is optional for Christians.

        Jenny

        1. TheCapn profile image58
          TheCapnposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          That doesn't make much sense then. I know there are a lot of Christians who bend over backwards to try and make Genesis and The Big Bang/Evolution work together, but I've never heard of them doing the same for the Jesus story. The story of Jesus is basically their core belief, the whole reason for the existence of their religion. If Belief in Jesus' divinity is optional then what point is there to any of it. To go further, if the literal existence of Jesus is optional, then why not the literal existence of god? I find it extremely hard to believe that the Sunday church crowd endorses that type of belief.

  16. knolyourself profile image59
    knolyourselfposted 8 years ago

    Good point. A book of metaphorosophy.

  17. 0
    sandra rinckposted 8 years ago

    Creationism and Evolution and the Big Bang work fine together in my book. 
    Though Jenny,  I too am wondering about what you posted, it really doesn't make much sense.  I think maybe a typo? 

    smile

  18. 0
    Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago

    Mohit=egomaniac?

    just wondering.

    Mohit are you?  I am not saying so definitely, but I want your response.

    Are your desires more important than anyone else's feelings and or wishes?

    Is your enlightened understanding and the desire that proceeds from it more important?

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      I have agreed unconditionally with many people.I cannot say nice statement when you insult the Buddha,Buddhism and the whole of the east.You call me a meglomaniac -what are you?Your immaturity was evident with your statment.Try to think before saying something.

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        Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        I was just wondering man, that is why I put a question mark after the word.  As far as buddhism and the east, the east has a lot to contribute, including the game Go.  I can learn more about eastern thought structure and understand more about it's culture by reading history books on the east and playing the game Go.  The East, is distilled in that game, the very core of how people learn and think and feel about reality.

        In the West, Chess is the equivalent, and that game has already taught me much about Western thought and culture, much of which imo was/is calculating and manipulative as well as derogatory and class imposing.  In Go however each piece has the same power, and to me that says a lot of positive things about the East, the fact that each person is part of a whole and is worth the same as every other person.  This runs very deep in Eastern culture as is evident by the game.  Over time I may be able to draw more conclusions after studying and attaining more rank in Go.

        This is what I have to say about the East and it's people.  Buddhism as a religion is interesting, but I do not for one think that spiritual concepts need to be taken literally in order to find meaning in them. 

        For instance Nirvana:  Does this have to be an actual spiritual state, or could it just be a way of transformation with a less literal approach? 

        Far from insulting the East I tend to learn from culture but do not equate spiritual things with anything other than metaphor as when you take those things literally, people literally suffer (imo).

        You can call me crazy for saying a game like Go or Chess teaches me a LOT about the Eastern and Western civilizations over thousands of years, but in my mind it's not crazy by any means, it is me having the intelligence to appreciate the subtleties and patterns hidden and distilled by cultures over hundreds and thousands of years into a game.  They are there, one just has to look.  They cannot help but be there, as any culturally based game like Go or Chess is a cultural representation of the people who played the game and represents the very core of their outlook on things in general.

        1. mohitmisra profile image61
          mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

          Nirvana is associated with the death of the body.Enlightenment happens -that is the person dies goes back to the source-the light and comes back.Still being in the body he will suffer from pain from broken bones,to wounds to insult exactly how some one else feels.He can be insensitive and very sensitive.You see one in all after that,it is a state.In India its called Bhramin or knower of Bhrama the enlightened one. Havent played Go, have played  chess,never said you are crazy just told you you take it easy when you talk about the saints as the karmic consequences can be very serious.The universe can be merciless as it is loving.
          regards
          Mohit

  19. wings001 profile image61
    wings001posted 8 years ago

    I believe Jesus' words of forgiveness spoken from the cross were meant for all of us.  Because of his willingness to pay the penalty for the sins of all mankind, anyone who receives Chirst's forgiveness in faith will be redeemed from sin and have eternal life.

    While many of us have strong opinions about whether or not Jesus was God (& sinless with the authority to forgive sin), truth is truth and God is God.  Festinger's theory of cognitive dissonance states that people will either change their behavior to match their beliefs or change their beliefs to justify their actions. (God's truth is the only truth that really matters - since any other opinion is distorted by human error and pride.)

    I think questions about who Jesus was and the significance of his death (and resurrection) are worth researching with an open mind.  I challenge you to seek God and ask God to reveal himself to you - the Bible says God will reveal himself to anyone who seeks him with their whole heart.  It helps, I believe, if you accept the Bible as God's Word and ask God to give you understanding as you study His Word.

    Ultimately, eternity rests in the balance.  I pray that Satan will not deceive you into dismissing the question of who Jesus was as unimportant.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Here are a few verses from the Bible to ponder:

    "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." - Jesus Christ

    "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father except through me." - Jesus Christ

    "There is a way that seems right to a man, but it's way is the way unto death."  - Solomon or some other wise teacher in the book of Proverbs

    "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God..."  - The Gospel of John 1:1 (If you read the rest of this passage it is clear that the author is speaking of Jesus.)

    May God bless all of you as you seek him with all your heart!

    1. mohitmisra profile image61
      mohitmisraposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      nice words-god bless you too.
      ,Mohit

  20. Paraglider profile image89
    Paragliderposted 8 years ago

    What I think Jenny is saying, quite correctly, is that in the Old World there is a well established tradition of 'cultural Christianity', which accepts much of the teachings of Christ and of the Church without necessarily accepting the virgin birth, his resurrection, or ultimately his divinity. You could call this a 'post-Christianity' if you like. When people, brought up in a Christian tradition, cease believing in some of the articles of faith, the change is barely perceptible from the outside, because they continue to behave according to the mores of their society. And certainly it is not uncommon to meet Christian ministers of various denominations who do not hold to the Credo in every detail.

    The attitude of unquestioning acceptance of the literal truth of the bible is very much rarer in educated Europe than in the States, as is the insistence that 'intelligent design' should be taught alongside or even instead of evolution.

    Jenny - if this is not what you were referring to, I'll happily be corrected smile

    1. Inspirepub profile image87
      Inspirepubposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      You're right, paraglider, that's what I am talking about. My friend's father is an Anglican minister and participates in the board meetings which set Diocesan policy on such matters. He tells us the a noticeable minority support the position that the message of forgiveness and redemption is the critical defining part of Christianity, and the belief in the literal existence of Jesus is an optional extra.

      The Arians, Cathars, and Bogomils were entire Christian sects who did not believe Jesus was divine - they believed he was a human being like all the other prophets. The Roman Catholic Church put serious effort into stamping them out as heretics, of course, but did not completely succeed. Arianism was the dominant form of Christianity in the region of France at the time of Charlemagne, for example, and Cathars are mentioned in the records of the Spanish Inquisition.

      Jenny

  21. Paraglider profile image89
    Paragliderposted 8 years ago

    Wings001 - it's not especially helpful to post effectively the same long message in two threads. It almost gives the impression that you're not interested in the different discussions, but only in saying your set piece.

    1. wings001 profile image61
      wings001posted 8 years ago in reply to this

      Paraglider,

      Thanks for your feedback.  Since both threads were dealing with similar issues I felt what I had to say (with minor changes) was appropriate for both - didn't know if people who read one thread would necessarily be reading the other.

      1. Paraglider profile image89
        Paragliderposted 8 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks for the courteous answer. I think most people here tend to read all the threads, at least superficially and are sensitised towards anything that looks spammy. Maybe oversensitised in this case smile

  22. Paraglider profile image89
    Paragliderposted 8 years ago

    Zarm - I agree with you about the significance of Go & Chess. You could make a similar point about the very different development of Eastern & Western music.

    - o -

    Edited in later - Except that Chess doesn't qualify as a Western game as some of the earliest versions of it came out of China and India. Chinese & Japanese Chess as played today are every bit as hierarchical as the Western version. So I'm not denying that the games reflect their origins in society, but I think there's no great justification for citing a geographical divide.

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      Zarm Nefilinposted 8 years ago in reply to this

      It is not a geographical divide I am talking about, but a cultural divide/way of viewing the world, resulting from differences of understanding.

      Here is a quote from a wikipedia article:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess

      "And what say you to the game at chestes? It is truely an honest kynde of enterteynmente and wittie, quoth Syr Friderick. But me think it hath a fault, whiche is, that a man may be to couning at it, for who ever will be excellent in the playe of chestes, I beleave he must beestowe much tyme about it, and applie it with so much study, that a man may assoone learne some noble scyence, or compase any other matter of importaunce, and yet in the ende in beestowing all that laboure, he knoweth no more but a game. Therfore in this I beleave there happeneth a very rare thing, namely, that the meane is more commendable, then the excellency"

      On a side note this ancient mideval truth aptly illustrates then, as it does now, why people even to this day who are professional grandmasters will abandon this game in favor of a career.  Even if such a GM gives the reason of "I cannot make enough money at it" as a reason to get a career in something else, like say a science, the real heart of the matter is that at the end of it all, unless your Robert James Fischer or something, all you have gotten good at is a game.

      To also quote from that same wiki article:

      "Chess is a recreational and competitive game played between two players. Sometimes called Western chess or international chess to distinguish it from its predecessors and other chess variants, the current form of the game emerged in Southern Europe during the second half of the 15th century after evolving from similar, much older games of Indian and Persian origin. Today, chess is one of the world's most popular games, played by millions of people worldwide in clubs, online, by correspondence, in tournaments and informally."

      The reason this is so is because earlier versions of chess where substantially different in a few areas.

      Also:

      Here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaturanga

      This illustrates a precursor to chess, and to this day one can note the caste system in modern India, and how this is reflected in the ancestor to chess.  The middle age's caste system was done away with to a large degree Post Enlightenment, as today it is possible to get out of one's class through education, supposing one can attain it viably.

      Also in that part of the East which constitutes China, the Go cultural mentality can be clearly seen and understood for what it is, beautiful and alternative.

      Also here is another quote from another wiki:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_as_mental_training

      "Benjamin Franklin, in his article The Morals of Chess (1750), advocated such a view:

      "The Game of Chess is not merely an idle amusement; several very valuable qualities of the mind, useful in the course of human life, are to be acquired and strengthened by it, so as to become habits ready on all occasions; for life is a kind of Chess, in which we have often points to gain, and competitors or adversaries to contend with, and in which there is a vast variety of good and ill events, that are, in some degree, the effect of prudence, or the want of it. By playing at Chess then, we may learn: 1st, Foresight, which looks a little into futurity, and considers the consequences that may attend an action ... 2nd, Circumspection, which surveys the whole Chess-board, or scene of action: - the relation of the several Pieces, and their situations; ... 3rd, Caution, not to make our moves too hastily...."

      Chess has taught me many many things about my fellow humans from a Western cultural standpoint, and because I have grown up in a Western country, these things come in handy in day to day situations.  Chess teaches one how to survive to a certain extent, and I would agree that it teaches prudence, as Benjamin Franklin aptly stated.

      So to be more specific paraglider, I think it is more correct for me to say that "The East" that the game Go culturally reflects would naturally exclude India, and more include places like Japan/China.

  23. Paraglider profile image89
    Paragliderposted 8 years ago

    Yes, I'm familiar with all of these quotations, having been involved with chess (circumstances permitting) all my life. One of the problems the game has is that study, especially of openings theory, can give a disciplined but unimaginative player the advantage over a more inventive but less schooled opponent, especially in limited time matches that go to adjudication. But all games are flawed in some way.

 
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