If Jesus turns out to be the biggest Hoax ever...

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   Estessposted 15 years ago

   Now don't get me wrong; I dont want to offend anyone here, but if Jesus is revealed to have been invented by the that time "people in power" to have control over the World, what would your reaction be? Just curious:)

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      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I would still do the same.  that or total anarchy! 

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      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      What do you mean "if"?
      
      This is the only logical explanation. If you read and understand the bible that is.
      
      As far as I am concerned, Jesus is a political construct and Jenny has a good hub showing that the whole idea of a god who died and then rose from the dead to give life to his people has been done before.
      
      Old story stolen from other religions - A god who dies and comes back to life

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         DaMaGeD_GooDzposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         LOL! You should read  Welcome to Jesus Land. You'd love it.
         
         I agree the whole Jesus bit has been played to death. To me Jesus was probably a real person with a wife and kids, that was killed because he was viewed as a heretic. I imagine the things he talked about were similar to Eastern philosophies.
         
         Hey, wait a minute! If someone can be worshipped for having ideas and speaking out...where's my congregation?

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      mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      The people in power killed Jesus,why would anyone make him up?For a fire there must be a spark.
      Regards
      Mohit

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         Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Not the people in power. The people who wanted to be in power made him up as a rallying point for the oppressed and lo and behold...... The Roman Catholic Church was born. No power there.
         
         So by your standards, Zeus must have existed? For a fire there must be a spark, therefore Zeus was real? Along with the flying spaghetti monster?

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            Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Hang on Mark - your last ten words took about three hundred years to happen. Constantine was to Caesar as Bush is to George Washington, give or take the odd apple tree. The J-guy must have had some staying power!

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               mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Nicely said paraglider.Truth defies time and Jesus was truth.Did you happen to see the picture in the dessert in the gulf war.People thought it was sandstorm and from far the storm took on the likeness of Jesus.He still exits forget had existed.Masters are beyond time.He is still saving souls.He has the power of god-indestructable and immortal.

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   Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years ago

   Jesus (supposing he existed), is in my honest opinion a lot like Joan of Arc.  The Catholic Church lawfully represented by the Bishop of Beauvais (hope I spelt that right), excommunicated and then burned Joan of Arc at the stake for being a heretic.  The same thing essentially happened to Jesus by the religious authorities at the time.  Main difference in the two cases is that Joan of Arc did not become anything other than a Saint, which is more like a goddess in the pantheon of gods/goddesses in the catholic church, whereas Jesus became top dog.  It is ecclesiastical abuse and it has been going on for ages.
   
   Guy/Gal comes along promotes a radical understanding of things that local ecclesiastical authorities of the time don't like, they try, torture and execute said person.  Said person eventually after a few hundred years gets exalted to God/Saints status and church in question says "See that person was good after all, oops we made a mistake!".  In the case of Jesus the early christian church claimed him instead of the Jews claiming him.

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      danieltetreaultposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      So tell me, I am a little confused! Are you saying "Jesus (supposing he existed)" that you do NOT believe that he existed or that you DO NOT believe his claims. I find it hard that anyone would deny that Jesus actually lived and walked on earth.
      
      Daniel Tetreault.

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         Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         There is some legitimate historically based doubt as to whether or not Christ ever existed, but that is not what I was referring to, as I used the words "(supposing he existed)".

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         TheCapnposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Why would you find that hard? There's not exactly a lot of evidence supporting his existence and the Bible conveniently says that his physical body left earth to go to heaven which comes in handy if you can't find his remains. I myself am on the fence about the issue, I can't really say I think that he did or did not exist.

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            Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            They would find that hard because they are programmed for hellfire if they seriously think otherwise. 
            
            "Whether considered as the God made human, or as man made divine, this character never existed as a person.
            
            -Gerald Massey, Egyptologist and historical scholar (Gerald Massey's Lectures: Gnostic and Historic Christianity, 1900)"
            
            "What one believes and what one can demonstrate historically are usually two different things.
            
            -Robert J. Miller, Bible scholar, (Bible Review, December 1993, Vol. IX, Number 6, p. 9)"
            
            "Even if there was a historical Jesus lying back of the gospel Christ, he can never be recovered. If there ever was a historical Jesus, there isn't one any more. All attempts to recover him turn out to be just modern remythologizings of Jesus. Every "historical Jesus" is a Christ of faith, of somebody's faith. So the "historical Jesus" of modern scholarship is no less a fiction.
            
            -Robert M. Price, "Jesus: Fact or Fiction, A Dialogue With Dr. Robert Price and Rev. John Rankin," Opening Statement"

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            mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            One story goes he came and setlled in India Kashmir and his grave exists.

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               mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               In India another debate is happening over Lord Ram -did he exist or was he a myth.They want to excavate a canal between Sri Lamka and India fro shippping but some do not want it as they say a historical bridge he made with Hanuman and the monkeys still exist.There is evidence of this bridge.

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         Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Consider yourself introduced to some one who cheerfully denies that Jesus lived and walked the earth. If every thing else in the bible is patently false, why should this be accurate?
         
         I find it hard to believe that anyone would base their life on anecdotal evidence from a 2,000 year old book that makes no sense
         
         But feel free to show me some evidence and I will change my tune. My "belief" does not rest on faith - merely the little detail of absolutely no evidence.

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3. 58

   Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

   Paragliger - Absolutely. The bible is one of my favorite stories. Talk about your perfect hero for the down trodden masses.
   
   But during the intervening 300 years, the old Roman Empire made the huge mistake of persecuting and attempting to drive the Christians into the dirt.
   
   Massive mistake. On a par with Hitler invading Russia.
   
   And it is arguable that the Roman church was actually formed by Peter and Paul. As far as I recall, the Catholic church claimed Peter was the first bishop so it just took 300 years to come to power. Not 300 years before it was formed.

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      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I think that is based on JC's calling Simon the fisherman by the name Peter, the rock on which I will build my church. i.e. I think the Roman church retrospectively adopted Peter, and of course later claimed apostolic succession, by which the Popes inherited Peter's 'mantle'. There have been some pretty shocking popes along the way though!

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   Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

   Something I touched upon in my 2000-years-in-2000-words Hublove entry, paraglider  - http://hubpages.com/hub/Religion-And-Politics - some shockers indeed. Including the point at which there were three Popes simultaneously, all fielding armies to back their claims.

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   Paragliderposted 15 years ago

   The Borgias weren't the holiest of popes, for example!

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   Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

   Typical warmongering zealots most of them
   
   The only decent thing to come out of the Roman Church is also the only piece of artwork I genuinely think shows 100% genius or divine inspiration if you want to call it that lol
   
   Lets hear it for Pope Julius II
   
   

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   SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago

   Its not the man that matters...its the Christ consciousness that he exampled and tried to relay to others as something they could attain as well.

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   Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

   Well said, Sparkling Jewel.
   
   I see many people studying and arguing about the superfluous detail (like whether Jesus was 100% human or partly Divine) completely ignoring the true message.
   
   I see others who do not even call themselves Christian who have studied and understood what Jesus was saying far better than most so-called "Christians" have.
   
   I agree - the message is important, the messenger is not.
   
   Jenny

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   topstuffposted 15 years ago

   Then where would his followers stand.

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      SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      the followers are following a path of Christhood that Jesus holds the standard for; sets the example for, but is not to be worshiped for. It is an internalization of his example, not an idolatrous bowing to him as the man, but an honoring of the  attainment, recognizing the vision of where they as the individual can go.
      
      that is the mystery...for an individual to understand how to love the God in humanity without putting idolatrous worship on the human.
      
      I have seen followers standing all over the place...it is an individual and subjective walk with God, not a join the crowd walk

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    lenkasvecposted 15 years ago

    I can´t agree that only the message is important and not the messanger. Imagine, that you had no parents but you would be said all the things parents say to their children and you would be shown all the things parents show their children. I strongly doubt that you would internalize that message. What makes us all follow our parents´ example is the love bond that we have with them. And it´s the same with Jesus. He doesn´t need to be worshiped or loved - He is Love. But He knows that only when we love Him we can actually follow Him and thus live a meaningful life. We need Him - His love and help, otherwise we can get pretty lost. For me, true saints are quite a proof of Jesus and His Divinity - take, for example, the case of Marta Robin (not an official saint yet, as she died only in 1981) but how else could you explain her life - with no food and not a drop of water for several decades, living mysteriously only thanks to wafer that she took in every day, but even that not really, as she could not swallow anything. And there are many other examples.

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       SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       after I said what I said in my previous post, about the messenger not being important, yes, I did start thinking about that. Not that I disagree with what I said, but that I ADD to it, by saying that the example, is important.
       
       To me Jesus is like a big brother, that I can look to, look up to and count on...but beyond that human brother concept. I believe in the living Christ and can ask Jesus to come into me heart and raise me up...beyond the human fears, pains and doubts.
       
       When I am in a state of acceptance of myself in God, its like I stand next to Jesus, the angels and saints...all of us as God, part of God, in God. But when I am in  the human consciousness of need, fear, pain, doubt, I do ask and accept that I need to ask Jesus for his presence to come into me.
       
       I have this relationship with many saints and ascended beings of many religions of the world.
       I love Mother Mary and Kuan Yin...when I need a mother sense of support I ask them to fill me. Jesus is my "biggest" brother! Angels are my sisters and brothers, helpers when I am in need of help. Maitreya has been a father, Padre Pio a father. When I feel incomplete as the family within, I call forth my Holy Family aspects of God to fill me.
       
       To me this is the fulfillment of the verse, "except you become as a little child, you will not enter into the Holy of Holies" !

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          mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I understand what you are saying.You are there.

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    RFoxposted 15 years ago

    Whether Jesus was a hoax or not has no bearing on my life or philosophies.
    
    But, even if someone came up with irrefutable proof of Jesus being a hoax, it would still be refuted by Christians. Belief outweighs logic to a lot of people. They would see it as a test from God of their faith and would still believe 100% in Jesus.
    
    So it's kind of a moot point IMHO.
    
    (And I'm of the belief that it is truth not the messenger that's important. "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." "Don't Mistake the Finger Pointing at the Moon for the Moon.")
    
    

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       mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Dont kill anyone and its dont concentrate on the finger or you will miss out on the beauty of the moon.
       When they say kill the Buddha it means is pay more attention to the message than the person.Similarly one bows to the spirit of an enlightened one which is also in him and has yet to discover.The namaste or greeting in Indian tradition means one is bowing to the spirit of the other person.

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    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    'When they say kill the Buddha it means is pay more attention to the message than the person.' There is a sect of Buddhism which plays up the concept of 'If you meet the Buddha slay him.' To me means there
    should be no authority outside oneself.

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       sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       right!  change has to start with yourself. 

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          mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          I listen to the signs the messages and thats why I bacame a poet.Whenever you or anyone else wrote well I acknowldged it and did not ridicule it.Our petty squabbles are nothing in front of the truth.The finger pointing to the moon,this took me years to understand.I am and have been a martial arts freak and I came across this line in a Bruce Lee movie and just didnt understand the meaning for a very long time.Now its so clear to me.

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             sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             I have done the same, and I love Bruce Lee! 

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             Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Well, we have something in common. Who is your Sensei and what have you studied?

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                R. Martin Bassoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                For me it was Sensei Wada Isau, in San Jose California.  6 years Shotokahn Serenji Ru.

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                mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Sensei Dr Reza Sazegari, dual taekwondo and karate.Kan zan ryo style a new style.Have done upto 8 kue -10kue is black belt which he has given one person in 20 years of teaching.He was the all India champion twice and runner up once.Unfortunately he went back to Iran and everything stopped.What about you?
                We also have something else in  common-I also love my beer.

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                   Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   Never heard of him. Post a link please - I would like to see him in action.
                   
                   Myself, Iwama style Aikido 3rd dan Chiba sensei, Ralph Reynolds sensei, Roger Tabberer sensei and Saito sensei.  2nd dan wado ryu Karate early until I discovered Aikido.
                   
                   Taught it for years until the politics became unbearable.

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                      mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      Awesome.wow wow wow He is more known in India and Iran.Dont have any of his videos.

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                         mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                         Do you have any videos of yours I can see?

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                            mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                            The awesome is for both you and him.

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                               mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                               A friend of mine is a multimillionare and he has around eight body gaurds at all times aikido masters from USA.The sensei is Indian and comes down twice or thrice a year when he requires extra protection during his parties.They gave some demonstrationa and taught us a few times in my class.The sensei is 5 foot 6 inches but the way he handles these other giants is something else.This is also when I realised it is just not about using the other persons power but generating temendous power yourself.

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       mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       The message from the Buddha will synchronise with your innner authority.God is in as well as outside you.The master will try and trigger the master within you with his message.

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    mightyoneposted 15 years ago

    But does anyone really understand the Bible or are you all trying to dismiss what would undoubtedly bound you?

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       Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I understand the bible perfectly well.
       
       It is a political tool and most certainly not the word of god. But if you have some insights that are different to the usual, "You are all wrong, I have the REAL interpretation that only makes sense if you already believe," go right ahead.
       
       Nice username by the way. Not boastful or arrogant in any way whatsoever.
       
       And I think you meant "bind."
       
       Saint Mark, AIPP, CMT, Prophet of Roddenberry and all round good guy.

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    Shadesbreathposted 15 years ago

    If Jesus turns out to be a hoax, it won't really matter will it?  The believers and non-believers all end up worm food no matter what they did Sunday mornings and holidays while alive.
    
    It only matters if Jesus  ISN'T a hoax, at which point  Christianity becomes something like insurance for your soul.

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    Nathanaelposted 15 years ago

    Thanks for being my fan mohitmistra. Got to run! we will talk though. Grace & Peace.

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    R. Martin Bassoposted 15 years ago

    Religion.
    Abortion.
    Homosexuality.
    
    3 Topics guaranteed to start a fight.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Only the 1st
       
       If you take #1 out, the other 2 are moot.

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    SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago

    and the topic of this thread is... ? 

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    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    I had my wrist broken by a Japanese sensei who was 5 foot 2 and weighed about 1/3 rd of what I do. That convinced me to switch from Karate to Aikido - many years ago.
    
    I cannot find any videos - most of my exploits were pre-internet and video, but I am sure you will find me some where if you look me up on google.
    
    I tried to find your sensei - no luck.

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       mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       I was in the Merchant Navy when I joined my class around nineteen.Quite tough I thought I was coming from the ship. Then in my first or second class my friend a short guy Iranian asked me to punch him ten times in the stomach,I did then he punched me once and I was on the floor.He was only an orange belt ha! .Aagin its something in life unless you dont do you will never really understand.Should I search with sensei Mark Knowles or Mark Knowles?

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          mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          India maybe very advanced with computers and software guys but at the same time we are years behind in general where the comp and the internet is concerned.I doubt his videos,demos or fights are posted on the net. I cannot recall who but someone on hubpages said you get a day year old baby or something like that on google search.In India if you say that you will be laughed at.

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             mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

             Wow you are seriously trained not to be messed with .

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                Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Ha! Long time ago - Now I am old and fat as has been mentioned

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                   mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                   ha!  will take you on in spiritual matters not physically.

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                      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                      When you understand that they are one and the same, you will be truly enlightened.

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                         mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                         hahahahahhahaha
                         If I am not mistaken the inventor of aikido claimed enlightenment.

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                            mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                            Will still try

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    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    I haven't taught in years so I have no idea - I have never looked lol. .

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    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Morehei Ueshiba claimed to be able to dodge bullets, but not enlightenment
    
    I never met the man but have had the privelege of training with his son and three of his most well-known pupils. Enlightened? He would have laughed at the idea - and charged you accordingly

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       mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       No I read about him.After a dual he claimed to have been engulfed by the light-satori.Anyways all martial arts end result is enlightenment.wow you trained with his son cool.Dodging bullets is more atributed to moving as the gunman presses the trigger.Martial arts is dynamic meditation.
       Seen one picture where he is holding the end of a long stick with one hand and there are six or seven people  trying to push it down-madness.

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          mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Bye for now enjoy your weekend ,will battle you after.Going to use my spiritual powers on you and make you a believer. I am going to enjoy my weekend as I am happy my rankings have improved more now over Paulo Coehlo book As Valkirias.

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    TheCapnposted 15 years ago

    I made a bet with a former neighbor of mine 5 years ago about something in Revelation. I think it had something to do with a 100 million man army marching against Israel. I forget what the timetable was, I think it would have to happen at least before 2010. Basically I'm saying if Jesus turns out to be a hoax I'll win $500 sometime in the next couple years.

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    Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

    My position is that is you really understand Christ's message, you won't care whether the actual man existed or not.
    
    If you think it is important that he actually existed, you are missing the point.
    
    If you can't imagine anyone NOT believing that Jesus existed, you are sadly, sadly, spiritually lost.
    
    The man Jesus Christ is like Wittgenstein's ladder - once you have climbed the ladder, you can cast it away.
    
    Jenny

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    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    Wouldn't matter to someone of faith no doubt. But for the scientifically minded, people who are attributed with powers of virgin birth, and rising from the dead, salvation from eternal sin - just for those who believe, and everyone born sinful and not stupid, cannot by default garner the necessary concensus for friction free societies, except as enforced by threat of damnation and force of arms. In secular societies agreement is supposed to be based on the science of universal provability as the standard of truth, from which there arises objective standards for agreement. Except when it comes to the universe being shrunk to the size of a basketball.

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    Inspirepubposted 15 years ago

    Science is also like Wittgenstein's ladder.
    
    When you truly understand the implications of quantum mechanics,scientific method becomes no more important than the historical man Jesus.
    
    Both are merely rungs on ladders.
    
    The ladders start in different places, but if you follow them all the way, they arrive in the same place.
    
    And that place is not the standard Christian understanding of the universe.
    
    Nor is it the pure materialist linear-time understanding of the universe based on classic physics.
    
    There is a higher-order reality in which the two can co-exist harmoniously as equivalent states of ignorance.
    
    I know dedicated Christians and atheist Physics professors who have more in common with one another than they do with most of their peers.
    
    They are the ones who get it.
    
    Jenny

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    SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago

    Mohit said: One story goes he came and settled in India Kashmir and his grave exists.
    
    Yes, I read that after his resurrection he went (in his "New" body) to live in India, married and had children and died (finally) at the age of 82. As the stories go of Eastern adepts, that is not too far fetched.
    But because no one wants to believe it in the West, no one will go investigate to prove one way or the other. It is just easier to call it an "evil lie" and ignore it. After all, it would rock everybody's world a bit too much

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