I understand we have free will. That's great. But is believing in an Almighty creator any harder than believing animals morphed into humans? I myself have never seen any animal morph over time. Nobody has. If they say they have then they are lying. And for all you science nuts, remember every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If there was a big bang, some action had to set it into force, meaning some other action had to set that action into force to set the big bang into force. Get it? You can't just stop at one point.
Better yet- Do you even understand "free will"? I figured I would ask. It is easier to understand that than Evolution, which you're claiming to be "malarkey".
This depends on how you formed the belief to begin with. If you formed the belief from some religious philosophy or teachings, then you've been misinformed. Thus, your belief would be based on a lie and would be living a lie. Thus, also showing others you don't understand your own life, much less anything else.
This statement shows your lack of understanding evolutions steps.
And what would you do if the POPE announce religion was a hoax...?
Actually, learn correctly- cause and effect. Every cause creates an effect.
This statement again shows your lack of knowledge on the topic you are attempting to tackle.
However, the big bang theory has been explained in detail. You fail to realize how it works because of your bias on some belief of an almighty as you claim.
"This depends on how you formed the belief to begin with. If you formed the belief from some religious philosophy or teachings, then you've been misinformed."
Prove evolution please.
Some greater minds than most of ours have been unable to do so, but you seem to have the answer.
You're looking for proof of evolution? You're funny. Even if I gave it to you, would you be willing to accept it? But, to give you proof- human consciousness is proof of evolution. It came on because of an evolutionary expansion of the mind.
Greater minds? Which ones- the religious influenced? the politically influenced?
Which "greater" minds doesn't have agenda? I've yet to see one that solely wanted to get to truth. Those who want truth, are denied access. So please...
"You're looking for proof of evolution? You're funny. Even if I gave it to you, would you be willing to accept it? But, to give you proof- human consciousness is proof of evolution. It came on because of an evolutionary expansion of the mind."
Whats funny about it?
You can't give proof of evolution, none exists.
"Greater minds? Which ones- the religious influenced? the politically influenced?
"Which "greater" minds doesn't have agenda? I've yet to see one that solely wanted to get to truth. Those who want truth, are denied access. So please..."
Those trying to prove evolution haven't done so.
Their agenda is to prove evolution.
And you failed to understand. WOW! I'm not surprised.
No I don't understand what you are saying.
I'm not even sure you understand what you are saying.
Thanks for proving evolution hasn't reached its full stride.
Again, you like to post just to read your own words.
Evolution is proven by the existence of human consciousness. It was brought on by an eventual evolutionary step...that step was the expansion of our brain- the mindspace used to create thoughts. The expansion of the mind is living proof in each human being who has human consciousness.
And no one has yet come up with proof related to God or Gods. Yet millions believe.
Or did I miss something.
No its not.
Evolution has not been proven.
We, like many other living things, are found at some points in the fossil record but not before. You certainly don't think we and they popped out of thin air, do you?
What alternative would you offer?
We (and many other living things) prove evolution.
Once an acorn falls upon the dirt; It begins an evolutionary process!
The Evolution depate should have died a long time ago.
It happens every day.
It is all around us and always have been.
But the seed came from someplace?
Space is full of organic material. We are not entirely sure of all the chemistry yet, but it looks like life may very well be inevitable.
I like the sound of that! Due to conditions that life is inevitable, Good sound to that...
But did ya know that if ya dig a whole a couple of feet deep, that dirt no matter what it looks like is sterile and will not support life?
Ya gotta throw some bacteria into it and let it mature first before anything will grow in it. Even if you fertilize it.
"What alternative would you offer?"
I wouldn't offer anymore than what I know.
All I know is that evolution has not been proven.
I make no argument for the existence of God.
Our mere presence does not prove anything other than we are here..
In much the same way that the existence of gravity hasn't been proven
Have you ever seen any living thing pop into existence? Do you know of any person who has?
Evolution is proven. What is not proven is how it occurs. That's all. Saying that evolution itself is not fact is like saying gravity is not just because we don't yet understand the underlying physics. Gravity is fact, so is evolution.
Even the Catholic Church recognizes that much,
Now you are intelligent enough to be able to anticipate a reply to that one surely?
I'm happy for you
Therefore why all the battles re evolution/creation? There is no proof of God, there is no proof of evolution.
This is not directed at you Jim - I mean the whole debate of epic proportions that surround the opposing ideals.
Jim...not true at all!
Micro evolution has been proved beyond doubt in the research of micro life forms which mutate very rapidly to adjust to changing environmenrts. Environment controls evolution.
Macro evolution involves more complex life and takes a very long time to prove i.e. hundreds of thousands even millions of years for noticeable changes to appear.
If we exist long enuf, macro evolution will be proved.
And yet you believe that the vibrations of a big band only traveles in a single direction. If you do not hear it??...
It didn't make any sound.
Jerami, I am not spouting out my beliefs. I hold no belief in the big bang theory. I hold no belief in creationism either.
The Big Bang theory has been explained. I didn't say I understood or held a belief in it. It's part of all knowable knowledge.
Creationism is a imaginary concept with less credibility than anything else known to humankind.
Please try not to jump into a conversation, and make more out of than there is. All you do is waste everyone's time.
Like...the BEACH BOYS "Gotta keep those lovin' good vibrations..." Everything evolves. Bird species in the Galapagos (Darwin's old playground) have evolved in as little as 100 yrs. Evolution in man is evidenced by the presence of canines and a vestigial tail. Unless, of course, you take into account God's grand sense of humor...
I was just point out that when Ya throw a rock into a pond, the waves go out in every direction.
The wave that rocks your boat isn't the only part of that wave.
Just because it went in a direction that you didn't see doesn't mean that it didn't have a cause and effect that you do not understand..
2 thumbs up Cags!!
That was a short but Excellent reply. :
Is your name Brenda?
It might do you some good.
No, Fenixfan is not me. I don't have duplicate accounts. And I'm a middle-aged woman, while Fenixfan is obviously a man, with some common sense to boot! So next time please refrain from using your dislike for my opinions to shut down his, okay?
All your post succeeded in doing was to make me an addition to Fenixfan's fan club!
Then you should go back and read as well. Some factual information might do you some good.
Believing in anything without understanding it is very dangerous and only leads to delusion and conflict.
Then, all microbiologists are lying. Or, most likely, there is another answer.
These would be the same "nuts" who have provided every single modern convenience that you enjoy today, including your computer and internet connection?
Those concepts are understood by scientists, they're just not understood by believers who make disparaging and ignorant remarks about them.
have been reading lately that the big bang is a crock proposed by creationists, and some "scientists" decided it was correct and set out to prove it, but were unable to. Just like I think humans causing global warming is a crock
The 'big bang theory' was originally suggested by a Roman Catholic priest.
I agree; there is a Creator-God who set the big bang into motion; otherwise there would be no big bang , no life.
Evolution was set forth by the Creator-God with the word "to be" and will continue till He commands it "not to be."
If anyone can do evolution, God can.
Is there anyone here (who believes in God) that says He can’t?
Building something, anything worthwhile, is an evolutionary process.
the interesting thing is that evolution doesn't exclude the existence of a god.
To refute evolution in my opinion is just pure Evangelical Christian ignorance. However, understanding science and recognizing the truth behind evolution, doesn't discredit God. If anything, it proves that something greater than us, really does exist. But Creationist with their Adam and Eve malarkey, well...... what's there to say? I mean, when faced with that kind of uneducated mindset and logic, I personally am left speechless.
I don't get it.
Didn't amphibians evolve from sea creatures? Didn't some of those land/water animals evolve from just being water animals? There is evolution but it takes thousands of years. We used to use an appendix but don't anymore. Eventually, if the race has enough time, we may not have an appendix. Right now, we only live long enough to mate and perfect the species, but not long enough to physically evolve to any great degree. What say you, masters of discourse?
Jerami, I am not spouting out my beliefs. I hold no belief in the big bang theory. I hold no belief in creationism either.
- - - - -
The Big Bang theory has been explained. I didn't say I understood or held a belief in it. It's part of all knowable knowledge. Creationism is a imaginary concept with less credibility than anything else known to humankind.
- - - - - - -
We only believe that we know those things that we think that we know; Ya know??
Please try not to jump into a conversation, and make more out of than there is. All you do is waste everyone's time.
- - - - -
Well if you, as you said? hold no beliefs then why do you waste everyone's time as well ????
Don't tell Cag...but everyone believes something. If they truly believe nothing, then their opinions mean less. I do feel that Cags has something to contribute, and that his opinions, as others, do have value. Sorry to say he is not as "gullible" as I.
For you to ask that question, to me, and I've been here for 1 year? Is really sad and not worthy of an answer to be honest.
I'm wanting for you to look into the mirror.
You tend to treat others in a manner that you yourself find distasteful.
But that is just my perception.
And everyone knows about perceptions ???
You got yours and I got mine.
Looking in the mirror will only show me me.
This may be how you live, but not me.
Yes, everyone has a perception. It's the knowledge and wisdom(or lack thereof) that distorts the perception of many.
Many use knowledge gained, wrongly because they truly don't understand.
Many use wisdom gained, wrongly because they fail to realize that what they consider wisdom isn't actually true wisdom, but a false belief.
Too many misconceptions of too many things have the world on the verge of destroying itself. Too many perceptions are skewed to as what is truth.
Try to stop and think about that- considering more of the population has some belief or another in a god of all things...and people wonder why the world is screwed up.
i don't think that the world is screwed up!
It is only our desires that is screwed up. As to how we would want the world to behave after we attempt to cause it to surrender to our will.
How disappointed that we must be.
We must not be half the GOD that we thought that we were.
Isn't an appendix or a tail bone or wisdom teeth proof that we have changed or evolved? The failure to produce proof of God is why most religions involve faith or as copied from wikipedia
"Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. The word faith can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general."
Further, it also applies to adherence to scientific theories, unless one posesses the mathematical capabilities necessary to prove it, mathematically to oneself, otherwise you rely on scientists and theorists who have you in the same position as the Popes, priests, and inquisitors have their "followers" in. Above all, knowledge is power, and lastly, faith or belief in one does not necessarily preclude faith or belief in the other, (as in a God figure) Religionists who believe that evolution somehow threatens God are imprisoned by interpretations decided upon when the church was in a state of immaturity. In the bible, we go from a state in the garden of naked hunter gatherers, to agriculturalists wearing clothes. Progress is evolution. Evolution is progress.
Wow. I posted this thread and left it up to discussion to see the views of others. I just now checked it and have found exactly what I was looking for. I guess I should explain my means of posting this in the first place. #1 No I have never been provided with evidence of evolution. #2 No, Evolutionists have never been provided with proof of a God. Why? Because we both believe in different things. The human mind adopts a stubborn way of thinking. This is why we have different cultures. We are all brought up a certain way or start thinking certain ways because of things we encounter through our lifetime. Yes Scientists "suggest" that over millions of years things evolved. But this is unprovable because nobody can live that long to perform a test. My biggest debate with evo is why on earth did it take so long for us to get to this point if the earth is millions of years old. Are we stupid enough to think that people took that long to develop common sense. After all, has science not proven to us that inbreeding cause lack of intelligence. How did people from several thousands of years ago not tackle the obstacle of airflight or space travel? This is all up to opinion. Please everyone remember that. We all know the saying for opinions.
I will explain why I believe in the Lord. I see a being that shows unconditional amounts of love for people who do not deserve it. None of us deserve half of the love we get. I respect any being that could have given such a sacrifice as the Bible says that God gave for us.
Now for my reason of posting. I learn from everything that everyone writes. If they write something entirely stupid, I know that they have done no research. Believing in Evolution is no different than believing on a God. They are both unprovable because of lack or extensive testing. If we could live for a million years I'm sure one would be proven without a doubt. We can say that we have beauty around us that proves God's existence, or that Jellyfish that form from polyps prove Evolution could be real, but neither are more believable than the other. It is all free will. And that is the beauty of the world. I'm surprised to see a particular hubber take part in my forum thread (PCUNIX) not to discredit any others. I just like this guy's work. He writes very good stuff and just look at that profile pic. Nice and original. Also a shout out to Jerami. I like you observation on the acorn theory. That I guess could show some form of evolution, but then again it is a seed, so where did it come from. Which came first, the chicken or egg, haha. We have to ask why do things stop at certain points. How come this tree just keeps producing acorns to form other trees. Why doesn't it evolve into a flower over time? It's just interesting to see other's views. That is why we have debates, Presidents, competing business. It makes the world go round. I thank all of you for sharing.
You post indicates you know nothing much about evolution. It is possible to see evolution of species in a short time ie using living things with short life-times & selective breeding
How do you explain away fossils, human tails (over 100 documented cases), extra limbs on whales, genetic evidence showing how all life is related?
How does an extra limb on a whale make it anything other than a whale? If the case that a whale can have an extra limb why is there not millions of two headed human beings? It's mere deformation. It doesn't prove evolution in any form. Does that whale go on to produce a different offspring? It goes on to produce another whale.
An deformity consisting of leg bones? (BTW, a whale and hippo are genetically very similar).
Not just a one-off, but many whales and dolphins (both are mammals).
what about multiple nipples in humans that can produce milk?
people that have long hair ("were-wolf" syndrome)?
How would you say these "mere deformities" happen?
These are throw-backs - when an ancient gene is expressed.
As for 2-headed people, turtles, snakes etc - they arise when an identical twin doesn't split fully
If you believe that some action had to set the big bang into course, then you have to believe that some action had to create your "god". You cannot have it both ways.
Nobody has seen an animal morph over time because evolution takes billions of years. I might also point out that nobody has seen your "god" create humans either. Oh right, except a bunch of guys none of us have ever met who wrote a book which has a ton of inconsistencies.
See, I think you're wrong. I don't see it as both ways. If one believes in God, it would be assumed that He existed prior to the Big Bang.
Evolution has run a pretty impressive course in a much shorter time frame than billions of years.
I think some of the problems people might have with evolution is that we have been able to document adaptation, so we therefor assume it to be evidence in support of evolution. I think this to be a reasonable assumption but have no problem following the argument presented against it. I simply don't agree with the argument against it.
Fossils prove evolution to some. Imply it to others. Raise more questions to a few. A difference of opinion that will be resolved with more evidence.
As to God creating humans, you are right. There is no physical evidence to support this belief; which is why it is called belief. Again, a difference of opinion that cannot be proven our disproven.
That's why it is a logical fallacy. No evidence, whatsoever, just belief.
Yet, mountains of evidence exist in every facet of science to support evolution.
But, the belief is strong and facts get tossed.
Oh good. I'm glad you're here. I was hoping someone would explain this to me.
Yes tons of evidence in support of evolution, but no proof positive yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't seen a crocodile whelp a puppy have we? Or anything to that effect?
I'm not arguing anything other than that it is not entirely unreasonable for someone to have room for doubt with little more than clear evidence that adaptation produces slight variations of form within a species.
The theory of evolution does not claim that would happen and such comments reflect a grave misunderstanding of how evolution works.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to the concrete evidence that I have missed. Every article I have read claiming proof has pointed to little more than adaptation.
An animal gives birth to a very similar animal but a tiger will not give birth to a cat. It's only that very small changes accumulate over generations. At some point, a group of animals will no longer be able to breed with another group of animals which, by definition, means we have a new species. Biologically these are different species which is what evolution claims. Things don't happen very quickly but new species do come and go.
I am aware of this. I was taking liberties I know, but the point is although we have named new subspecies, we have not seen any evidence that adaptation, or mutation can change an animal to such a great degree that it could be classified as a new species. Mutations wash out. They are not passed from generation to generation, the last I heard. Adaptation is simply that. Survival of the fittest.
I don't disagree with evolution, I can simply see the flip side of the argument.
Speciation(which you're pointing out) is not seen immediately and it takes hundreds of years even to see a small change. Take appendice which is found in humans for example, there are chances of it being totally vanish in next 50-100 years or so. Are you going to deny that it was never part of humans in past then ?
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar … opic_id=46
I don't deny anything. I am saying I see why some might have difficulty.
Your objection will hold for abiogenesis because there is no stable evidence for it as of yet.
Formation of life(single cell) - Abiogenesis.
Formation of species from single cell - Evolution.
If the difficulty is in understanding abiogenesis then i can perfectly understand the case. But if it's for evolution then i see no reason to debunk it without proper empirical evidence. We've plenty of species around which proves evolution.
I disagree. Pointless to argue since you insist on taking some things on faith. There is no concrete evidence. Fossils point to it strongly enough for me to take it as most likely the fact, but they do not prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. When we have been able to follow an example of a new species evolving then we can say we have concrete proof, not simply strong evidence.
I get it though. No point in believing a point you can't understand.
This is the reason you should study evolution before making remarks. Fossils are not the only way evolution is proved. We're also observing variation of species from the same family tree.
Beelzedad, are you serious? We believe, from the fossils we've found, that we can trace the evolution of our species. Maybe I've missed something. If so, I apologize. Have we ben able to harvest dna from fossils of what we believe to be our distantancestors, and prove we are descended? Again, I have no problem accepting this. I don't see why it would be a difficult concession to let others doubt.
Yes, I am serious. Please go read up on evolution. Thanks.
Ok. I just finished an article on Wikipedia listing every creationist argument and the scientific explanation. I stand corrected on the dna thing. I hadn't actually considered the nylon eating bacteria anything more than adaptation, but I'll take the article's word on it. I think the only argument the creationist might have a case for is plausibility. That would be somewhat difficult to argue. Thanks a bunch. I prefer thinking everyone should be left to believe what they want. Now they only have one opinion I can find room to agree with.
Unfortunately, Christians will never allow that, even though that's exactly what they want for themselves, just not for anyone else.
In the Islamic world, Muslims would never allow for it either, even though that's exactly what they want for themselves, just not for anyone else.
And so on, and so on...
Funny how those three ring circuses operate.
I cannot believe you compare Christianity to the radicals in the middle east. Worlds apart in my opinion.
Nice denial. Are you thinking of being nominated for an Oscar for that acting performance?
I'm not talking about our collective past. Am I to blame for slavery? I was born in the south. Am I to blame for the genocide of the american indian? I'm american. What about the Holocaust? They begged the Allies to bomb the rail lines that took the Jews to the camps. The Allies did nothing. Is this my fault too?
I don't belong to any sect, any denomination, I am unaffiliated with anyone in a religious way. I would like to know what it is I have done that I should apologize for, or run from? If there is something, I need to know.
No, but the organization and the god whom you serve, worship and obey certainly is to blame for a great deal of it.
You need present strawmen fallacies to support your argument.
No one is asking you to do anything, you are free to propagate the myths of your religion, which continue to do little more than create conflict and wars. Yes, please do keep believing.
I honestly can't see how a simple, individual belief in God propagates war. If that is truly what you believe, then I admire your tenacity in fighting it in this forum. I just wish I could understand where you're coming from. If I felt that too, I would rethink my position. I would never support war. Except in the case of another's aggression, and then only to protect human life.
Yes, I know, such are the horrific and dangerous results of indoctrination.
You would need to think about it before you could ever rethink. Understanding that this position is a position of not being indoctrinated. Understand your indoctrination first, then go from there.
You realize it is impossible to fall back to what you consider the default position. Even if you could wipe your mind clean, the literature exists. Those who are of a spiritual bent will either relearn, or find something else to pull them that way.
You're tilting at windmills. You do understand this. Don't you?
Oh yes, and when you begin to take Aesop's Fables seriously, as literature, rather than real, then give me a call.
I'm simply saying, this is an impossible mission.
Impossible for you to break your indoctrination? You have my sympathies, then.
Beelzedad, I would have no problem with the experiment. That is how great my faith is. I would have no idea how to go about it. I can't see how it would be possible.
Just start thinking, the rest will take of itself.
It is statements such as that one that I find offensive. You might try thinking yourself.
Yes, I know the truth can hurt sometimes. But, you asked and that is the only answer that will work. Sorry.
No, you are wrong. That is the problem with your argument against religion. It is why it is an argument you cannot win. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I know the truth is hard for you to face, but it is time to put away childish things and try to deal with the real world we all life in. Together.
Thanks for making yet another claim without a shred of explanation, reason or rationale. Haven't quite got the hang of it yet, eh?
Come on, let's agree to disagree at this point. I'm stil listening, so you've got a chance to get through me thick head, if that's what the problem is. I've got the same chance. So neither of us has won the day yet. The fight's what matters, if you believe in your stand.
Saying it doesn't make it so. Even I know that. Be nice to me. Mark got something else through my thick head this morning. I'm enjoying what you atheists think, when you actually share something intelligent.
Sorry, I'll try harder. So, what got through your head this morning?
I'm not telling. You guys push too hard. I process information slowly. There's a lot to compare things to. I don't like to feel cornered on anything I haven't put in perspective.
Ah, c'mon, do tell. What epiphany did thou est have?
No epiphany. Just something that I always believed to be the symbolism behind the fact. I'll have to do some thinking and study on it. Maybe it is all there is. Maybe the facts aren't as I've believed. It'll take awhile, but we will still be at odds. I still say you're wrong about God. This information is in no way at odds with my experiences that force me to believe.
Exactly. I couldn't have put it any better myself.
Ok. Those two sentences didn't go together. What's your point?
Think, grasshopper, think. This is your epiphany and your destiny.
In other words, you haven't spent any time reading up on evolution, it's postulates, proofs and evidence? Oh well.
Exactly. I've just assumed it to be fact, due to the educational system we grew up in. I simply like to find a way to give others the benefit of the doubt. Call me crazy..
I don't know what you do for a living, but I'm not in the scientific community. I read, watch documentaries. I have never seen a need to question evolution. So I missed the memo.
Give the fundamentalists a break though. What damage are they doing the rest of us? They can't be that bad. They're simply trying to be true to their idea of God. I think they are simply a vocal minority.
If you keep changing something often and long enough, why would it still remain within the same species? Why does, as you claim, evolution or adaption only happen "within a box" (within one species)?
If I take a bike and I add (through mutations) two wheels, it's going to resemble a car. If I add two more wheels, we're approaching a truck. By now the truck and the bike are two completely different 'species'. This analogy goes wrong in many many ways and I am aware of that. I'm just showing that you cannot keep changing something and still expect it to be the same species or just a subspecies.
Now you are claiming something much more difficult. What biological mechanism prevents mutations from staying within the same genetic material? Why can changes only do limited modifications? Evolution simply says: genetic material gets mutated from time to time and there's no mechanism to "get the DNA back to the original species". Changes just occur and species change.
Unfortunately, it would take a long time and a whole lot of writing and explaining on my part to give you some idea of what evolution is all about. You could save me the trouble by just doing your homework and finding out for yourself, like the rest of us did. In that way, you'll begin to understand how utterly ridiculous a statement you made regarding crocodiles and puppies.
As I told simeon visor, I was taking liberties. But do not assume that since you cannot answer this question that a flip response wins a point. As I said, I have no problem with this. It is your problem for not having the ability to allow those who can't some leeway. not everyone has a strong a faith as you do.
Yes, it is obviously my problem that some are too lazy to do their homework to gain an understanding of the world around them.
No, I believe there is a different problem. I think it involves pretending we have concrete answers when we don't. Or maybe your definition of concrete is different from mine. Mine means ' case closed time to move on to another question'. Do you believe the search has reached that point yet?
Now I know where I first heard the word Malarkey around here! Thanks Fenixfan; it has become a favorite of mine.
Why do people insist on searching for ways to create life instead of Loving the Creator of life?.......
Evolution is not about creating life, that's abiogenesis. Obviously understanding this difference requires education, not church or homeschooling session. The day you'll learn not to spit venom on anyone more intelligent than you, will decide how you wish to learn this difference.
Have you ever seen a baby grow?
No, you simply see a baby being a baby at one time, and a few days/weeks/months/years after you see what you consider the same person, bigger, and you infer that the baby has grown. At no point you actually can percieve the growth with your senses, can you? You simply see the stages and draw a line to connect them, intuitivily knowing that babies grow before-hand.
Now imagine the process to be much, much longer than your life-span and the stages much more blurred out and further appart. All proof you could have is old records from the stage of the baby long ago, and the present stage, and you'd need to use your brain to draw that line which reaches out far more than our intuition tells us.
Limiting proof to what you can experience is no argument agains evolution.
Going on record here as being a Christian who also believes in evolution..
Me too. Apparently a Christian who believes in evolution is a difficult concept to absorb.
As an atheist, may I say that is a neat picture!
"Truth is stranger than fiction" >what I intend by this is that while we have some of the pieces of the puzzle, we still don't see the whole picture. I suspect that as we learn more and continue our quest for truth, knowledge, and wisdom we will discover that neither side in this debate is entirely correct nor wholly wrong. "For now we see as though through a mirror darkly. We see in part and know in part now, but then we shall know in full, even as we are fully known." -i think this can be attributed to the apostle Paul, but I find it to be maybe the most enigmatic scripture in the new testament. Make no mistake, I do not subscribe to dogmatic Christian theology, rather, I present this as gnostic food for thought to all, a little philosophical morsel to chew on, if you will. In other words, think about it, ponder, and draw your own conclusions regarding the implications in such a statement. Quibble and bicker all you like, it serves to prove only one thing: Humans are an ignorant and contentious lot(which if this is the case pretty much disproves that there is such a thing as progress resulting from evolution as well as anything resembling 'truth' upon which we can all agree whether it be scientific or religious. I personally am trying to move beyond the fallacious schism of fundamental materialistic science and fundamental religious dogma towards something maybe best described as an archetypal cosmology.
So how come things like Crocodiles do not seem to and have not evolved for millions of years?
That's an easy one to answer.
Environment controls evolution.
Crocs are complex animals. Evolution is a tediously slow tortuous movement in complex animals.
They are perfectly suited for the world they exist in and on.
As changes in their environment occur that effect their existence, believe me they will adapt and evolve to meet those changes so as to survive as they have done successfully from before the dinosaurs to today.
Evolution does not stop. As long as there is life, it will exist.
We humans are new arrivals. We are presently, profoundly evolved in the processes of adaptation.
As our environment changes and we adapt, that is evolution in full blossom.
There MAY come a time in our existence when we will be able to control the environment thus controlling our evolution.
In fact, if we continue to exist, we may create a new species of human being which will be a result of man's continuing evolution.
Obviously, someone who expects to see one species change into another before their eyes, does not understand the process of evolution or the time involved. And the reason for this, is because they choose not to understand it. The religious demand proof of evolution before they are willing to believe it. Yet, if all the many pieces of palaeoanthropological evidence, which litter museums and university departments around the world are not evidence enough, then nothing will be. Yet, the same people, who when confronted with a line of skulls, displaying the stages of their evolution, declare "no, this is not evidence" are the same people who believe the bible to be the word of God. And how do they know it is the word of God? Because it says so in the bible, and the bible is the word of God, so it must be true. No amount of evidence will ever be enough to get past such a circular argument. And really, there is little point in trying.
I fully understand a person not wanting to believe in the very real evidence of evolution, because, man likes to see himself as the centre of the universe and of divine creation, in order to feel important, and to give meaning to his life. Yet, the refusal to even look at or acknowledge this evidence only displays their ignorance. However, it seems such ignorance is worn as a badge of honour among the religious-minded.
If conditions on the planet do not change, but remain stable over millions of years, would not evolution out of the environment be suicide?
Quark thanks for the reply.
"Crocs are complex animals. Evolution is a tediously slow tortuous movement in complex animals...They are perfectly suited for the world they exist in and on...We humans are new arrivals. We are presently, profoundly evolved in the processes of adaptation." If we are new arrivals and are even more complex animals than Crocks, why do we evolve at light-speed faster than Crocks?
That's an easy one too. Thanks for asking.
It all has to do with the "brain."
Crocks have a "simple" brain, much like those of the dinosaur. Although it has been found that they do have an ability to "plan and stalk," but this is just leaned behavior passed down from one generation to the next. The processes of evolution will program their genes so that their progeny will benefit.
The croc has adapted to it's environment successfully and change is not necessary. If their environment changes and jeopardizes their survival, believe me they will adapt over time and who knows what the results might be?
Now, "man" is gifted with 2 massive frontal lobes which enable him to "learn" and adapt much more rapidly. His body has "changed" as is observed by the vestigial remains of past forms of life. But the brain has developed very rapidly over the past couple million yrs, faster than any other mammal, because of "competition."
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