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what proof?

  1. StevenPayne profile image60
    StevenPayneposted 6 years ago

    For christians, what do you rely on for your beliefs outside the bible?
    For athiests, what proof do you have God does not exist?

    1. goldenpath profile image80
      goldenpathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      As Thomas Jefferson said, "Question God with boldness."  To question something with authority means you are willing to test it.  I practice the doctrines I teach.  The lessons learned from it anchor my foundation.  It's those lessons that guide my faith in God.

    2. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The earth and all that's in it, on it....
      Somebody had to have made it.

      The Spirit bears witness that God is real.

      1. pisean282311 profile image59
        pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        quite true but that doesnot mean god has emotions too...god can be as good as machine which creates...how about that?...so nothing can be proved , nor it can be rejected...

        1. profile image0
          Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          machine?

          I wonder who would be around to oil the machine?....

          1. pisean282311 profile image59
            pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            you missed the point...we think god is emotional..but emotional is trait which humans and few animal possess...not necessary god is emotional...god can be cold system which keeps creating...and seeing wider nature that possibility is more than seeing on perceptive of humans alone and specifically from perceptive of countries which are doing good...my point is it is belief and belief cannot be proved...no one can do that which would satisfy all...we can never have consensus on god or attributes of god...only thing which we can have is respecting other's belief...that is civilized way..

            1. Castlepaloma profile image24
              Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              GOD must have learned how to become cilvilized and went angry management, Unless he blow us up again after 2012.

              God is very emotional and very angry and jealous.

              Kill All of Babylon. Natural Disasters are God's Wrath, Don't Rob God, Ten Thousand Murdered at God's, Command Exterminate 7 Nations,

              Rampant acts of murder in the Bible. Especially the Old Testament, Working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night.  Children who make fun of bald people, man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport.  Capital Punishment Crimes, Stupid Reasons, Murdering Children and list goes on

              Biggest murder for me is where did 95% of species go after the big flood?

              I would not want to p*ss God off, Do you think God is emotional now?

        2. mom101 profile image60
          mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          pisean282311, God does have emotions. "And He wept"

      2. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        some HAD to have made it?  Why?

        spirit bears witness?  How - a book and feelings in people's hearts? (even though the heart is not an organ that generates feelings)

      3. Paul Wingert profile image80
        Paul Wingertposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.

        "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.

        "It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going." - Stephen Hawkin

        Let's see, Stephen Hawkin, and other top physicists who's has credentials that stretch to the next time zone, or superstitus  writers of 2000+ years ago who had wild imaginations. Who had the best credibilty?

    3. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      No proof is required that any mythical character exists, why should any of the gods be an exception?

      1. hanging out profile image61
        hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        the first thing the God of the bible did before he unburdened his people from egypt was to systematically destroy the man made gods of the egyptians. (the god of the nile, sun god RA and 8 others)
        God then went on to swear an oath by himself because he could swear on no other.
              Hebrews 6:13   For when God made promise to Abraham, because
                          he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
              Hebrews 6:16   For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath
                          for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
        God then went on to proclaim that he alone is God and there is no other.
              1 Kings 8:60   That all the people of the earth may know that
                              the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
                Isaiah 45:6   That they may know from the rising of the sun,
                              and from the west, that there is none beside me.
                                       I am the LORD, and there is none else.
                Isaiah 45:22   Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of
                                the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
        Then came jesus, the SON OF GOD. a son can only have ONE father.
                John 14:6   Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and
                               the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

                               Yah LOL this is written by mans own efforts. lol
        Im glad im a dumbo. I'd hate to think I was smart and not be able to wrap my giant head around this.

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Same as all the other gods eh? Destroy any "god evidence" from the last god, then proclaim yourself the new one! lol lol lol

          Sounds a bit like the other story where he becomes his own son then kills himself. That one is another side splitter! smile

        2. profile image0
          Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          ah, the birth of a new religion (still based on sun worship)

    4. Stump Parrish profile image62
      Stump Parrishposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Let's rephrase this question to allow both sides to respond to it on the same level. It is either...what proof do christians have that god exists or...what do atheists rely on for their beliefs that god doesn't exist.

      Based upon my time as a christian, the only proof of god's existence is the bible and the fact that I was taught to believe he existed. There is no other proof available that everyone can experience for themselves.

      As an atheist I rely upon the fact that there is no proof that god exists other than the bible and the claims of a few individual teachers who offer no proof of their expeiences other than their word. As the study of science has been permitted to grow by the church, more and more examples of religious claims being explained by experiments and shown not to be the work of a god. I rely on the fact that the millions of believers all have an individual picture of who god is and what his words actually mean. These individual opinions invariably support the mind set of the individual and not the words they are based on. I never ceases to amaze me that no one considers the fact that every interpretation of the bible failed to find fault with one or more of the interpreters beliefs and agenda. Is it not amazing that according to most christians, no matter how crazy your beliefs are, you can find a way to justify anything up to and including the murder of fellow christians? The primary reson I first left religion and started searching for answers that actually made sense was due to the overwhelming displays of hatred being and planned for carried out in the house of god's love. The more I studied the beliefs and claims the more I discovered there was not one shred of evidence for them. I am incapable of believing something that has been shown repeatedly to be false just because someone no one has ever met stated I must. If you can I would have to say you have a better imagination than I possess.

      To ask someone to prove something doesn't exist, simply because you have no way to prove it does exist, doesn't prove it actually exists to anyone who has the capability to think rationally.

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        this sums up my journey too

      2. StevenPayne profile image60
        StevenPayneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        wow, thats the best reply yet. Thank you, if I may ask one thing though. Your problem was with the people within God's house right? They found an excuse to do anything they wanted by twisting up the bible to fit their own actions. I agree, this is what has driven me from the church as well but what about the teachings directly from the bible?  Do these teachings have faults, are they selfish in motive and encourage selfishness, biggitry and hate?
        The whole reason I started this topic was because I am at a place where I do not fit in with most christians anymore because of my beliefs and I do not lean on the bible for my faith in God. It is hard to find others who do the same and I am an outcast because of it. I believe the bible is a book written by men who had an experience with this God. A book written over thousands of years by dozens and dozens of authers, none of which had the bible to base their belief off of, only the new testement and those in the latter old testament were able to look back on the books of moses or Jew's that were converted into christians could look back onto the old testement. anyway so my point is if there is a God, he exisits outside of this book and should be abel to be reached outside of this book. If you life starts reading like a story out of this book than chances are, you've found this God that so many have known. Most christians find this type of thinking to be blasphemious. Most Atheists find this kind of thinking intruiging, at least the ones I have met so far.

        1. Stump Parrish profile image62
          Stump Parrishposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          My problem started with the people in the church. Once I stepped back and started thinking about religious beliefs on my own, nothing made sense. Every claim that was presented and required faith to but into was accompanied with an arguement that relied on fact and reason to state it's case. I am incapable of ignoring facts in favor of unsupported wishful thinking.

          As you stated the bible was written by man and translated by man, into and out of acient languages. Now I find myself arguing about the accuracy of the bible and the true meanings of ancient words, with people who have yet to master the english language. While the bible may have some decent guidelines for living one's life, I can't get past the parts that state I should kill my children, my wife or any living breathing human to be a better person. If one is to use the bible as a guide for our laws, why should some get to ignore the teachings they insist I follow?

          I am not going to advise you on what you should be doing. This is a journey each must take alone. I will state that if more people based their decisions on their personal experiences and less on those who profess to be god's chosen people, alot less of the religious crimes against humanity would exist.

          1. profile image0
            Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Like stump, I became disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the people too.  After many years, I have been examining it more critically, and shocked that I ever believed it like I did.  I wrote a hub about my deconversion.  There are many ex-christians/ex-religionists on here who are courageous enough to speak out.

      3. Al Blondin profile image61
        Al Blondinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        When it comes to religion, most people who become cynical say they became disillusioned as the result of the behaviour of fellow "believers". Yet, the truth or lack thereof about a creator, who that creator is what his or her desires are, have little to do with the actions of those who claim to be believers. I believe that the church is like a hospital. That people who go to church do so to fulfill a certain need or desire. These may or may not have much to do with the existence or non-existence of God, but the realization that one needs some kind of healing. In some cases it has simply become a social club of like minded people who participate out of a desire for friendship. In order to find actual evidence for the existence of God, much more depth of research is required into anthropology and history. No scientific proof exists of course, that idea is ludicrous, but I believe enough evidence exists to make a reasonable case. On the other hand, I could not find any sustainable argument or evidence that Atheism was a better path.

        A former atheist.

        1. Beelzedad profile image59
          Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I've always been fascinated whenever I've read or heard someone make that claim. To me, it never really made much sense since it appeared to have contradiction plastered all over it.

          I have to keep asking myself how it is that someone could actually digest and critically synthesize the doctrines of theism, realizing that there was no basis of foundation and thus casting them aside as implausible, only to later recant their position of non-acceptance as if the complete lack of foundations were suddenly propped back up with rock solid support. What could possibly bring about such extraordinary and life changing manifestations?



          But, to say that it is ludicrous that "actual evidence for the existence of God" does not exist in anthropology and history and then say that "enough evidence exists to make a reasonable case" is rather contradictory without providing the evidence you speak. And, where else if not from scientific observation and experimentation would you ever get "actual evidence"?

          Believing in evidence doesn't make it exist.



          Atheism is not a path one sets in their lives, it is the non-acceptance of a path created by others who believe everyone should follow a particular set of doctrines.

          Setting a path in your life might entail building a set of morals and ethics more conducive to benefiting you and your family while not trying to harm others doing so.

          Scriptural superstitions of worshiping mythical gods are not required and need not apply to such a venture. smile

          1. Al Blondin profile image61
            Al Blondinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Beelzedad,

            First of all, you misquoted me, I wrote the opposite of what you claim above. Look again, this is what I wrote: "In order to find actual evidence for the existence of God, much more depth of research is required into anthropology and history. (as opposed to insisting on the scientific method)". Also, I used 'ludicrous' in another context.

            Also, there is no contradiction in what I wrote. Proof and evidence are not the same thing.
            What I meant is that the idea of requiring scientific proof of God's existence is ludicrous. What I mean by "scientific proof' is proof that is arrived at by the scientific method. It is kind of silly to think that a "creature" would even consider putting The "Creator," if such an entity exists, through the thorough requirements and discipline of the scientific method. That displays a misunderstanding of the application of appropriate methods of evidence gathering depending on the subject under scrutiny. If one is going to approach the idea of a Creator-God, it's a little silly to begin by treating him-her as if he-she is part of creation and that we will accomplish this in a lab.

            There is a lot of facts that people reasonably believe in through the gathering of historical and "legal" evidence such as the testimonies of witnesses without requirement of the scientific method. The scientific method is not appropriate for certain types of research. For example, proving that Christopher Columbus existed cannot be done this way.

            Credible scientists and researcher do not prejudge theories. By alluding to a "mythical" god and "superstitions" when referring to Jesus of Nazareth, one is arrogantly suggesting that one knows this for a fact. I don't claim to be able to "prove" otherwise, but I used to be an avowed atheist and after 20 odd years of personal research and many challenges, I am satisfied with the historical, archeological, and legal evidence available that it is not unreasonable to believe in the New Testament narrative and the claims of the apostle's creed.

            If you think I am a nut for believing this, that's your perogative, but I'd like to see rational and reasonable evidence to the contrary. Rants and insults are counter-productive. Leave your prejudices out the door if you are serious about exploring this issue. Otherwise, you are the one being unreasonable in your assertions. Einstein himself was not arrogant towards believers, he even suggested that his research was limited and did not exclude the possibility of a Creator-God. So did one of the world's greatest minds today, Stephen Hawkins, who, last I heard, is a practicing Anglican (Church of England) member. Many of the greatest minds in history were belivers and still are today. I used to believe that anyone who claimed to be a Christian was just naive and unenlightened. I now believe that this is simply an uninformed and insulting judgment based on presuppositions and ignorance.
            I would argue that most people are not atheists according to the strict definition of that word, "agnostics" would be more appropriate.

            1. Beelzedad profile image59
              Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              There is no reason to suspect that those who research anthropology and history don't use the scientific method in their approach. What other method is there?



              Not at all. If there is anything that can be observed in regards to a god, it can be tested through the scientific method. It would be ludicrous to believe in such entities without such a requirement.



              The scientific methods is the appropriate method for gathering any evidence regardless of the subject.



              Nonsense, testimonials are worthless without evidence.



              Yes, it can be done that way.



              What does that have to do with anything?



              Like for example, Christians who arrogantly suggest they know his existence is a fact?



              Yes, I've heard others claiming they were once atheist, but I never did buy that.



              There has to be rational and reasonable evidence to support your beliefs, but there is none. The only thing you came up with is testimonials, which are useless.



              Are you saying you are not going to resort to rants and insults? That's nice. Thanks for sharing that.



              What prejudices? Please show me where I've offered those?



              You are free to point out where I've been unreasonable, but so far, you have done no such thing.



              Those are all fallacies and fabrications that do nothing to support your argument.



              So what? smile

          2. Al Blondin profile image61
            Al Blondinposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Oh, I forgot to address one of your points. You give your definition of Atheism above and assert that "it is the non-acceptance of a path created by others who believe everyone should follow a particular set of doctrines."

            Well, my answer to that is, in my experience, no one is an island, we are all influenced by "paths created by others", meaning external factors in society that affect what we believe. The country we live in, our families, our societies are all factors we normally do not choose. Middle to upper class Americans are influenced by many "doctrines" that have nothing to do with religion. The various messages of our very materialistic society that assault us everyday from a multitude of sources have a huge influence on our lives. The "proof" of that is the incredible amount of money successful corporations pour into advertizing that tell us what we should look like, drive, drink, consider exciting etc... Media in a sense, is the new Church.
            To claim that one is not influenced by external factors is naive, the question rather is what basic principles can one choose as a baseline to assess what path to choose in the first place? What is my anchor in life? Who or what is deserving of my complete trust to advise me?

    5. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think first there would have to be a clear definition of what god is.

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Define "god" god damn it!

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Can anyone define clearly, what sustains life on earth

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I suspect you are not actually asking for this but...

            A few years ago the answer would have been "sunlight" as it is the "food" for the bottom of the food chain.  We would now have to add heat and sulfur compounds with the discovery of deep water animals near thermal vents.

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              You are right,  I really wasn't expecting one.
              But that isn't a complete answer cause there are some life forms that die in the sunlight.

                 And some life forms require nutrient that is poison to another.
                  I don't think that ya can clearly define what sustains life without putting definitive restrictions upon the answer? 

                But I could be wrong.

              1. Stump Parrish profile image62
                Stump Parrishposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I would venture to guess that almost everything sustains one life form or another. If you remove oxegen lifeforms die, if you remove carbon dioxide lifeforms die, like wise for water, heat, cold, light and dark, remove them and a lifeform somewhere dies. If you remove god from the world, what life form dies? Obviously god does not sustain life in any way, shape or form. Water is the only thing all life depends on, therefore god must be water. I'll beb, I'm going to get a few more god cubes for my iced tea.

                1. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Not any one single thing you mentioned alone will sustain life. But are each single ingredients.
                     Tough to define sustenance for all life on earth.

                  1. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    You state often that there are no absolutes.  Regarding god as everything would be an absolute that does not exist... it's somewhat like trying to express absolute zero as an actual "thing".

                    The concept removes it's possibility but is something like a place mark, much like zero, it's not actually a number but it is generally used to convey a number but what is it really?

                    Nothing exist in the realm of absolute zero because it's not possible, only conceptually possible like zero. 

                    Put in terms I think you could understand...I think.

                  2. Stump Parrish profile image62
                    Stump Parrishposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I would venture to say impossible as everylife form has multiple requirements for maintaining life.

          2. Cagsil profile image61
            Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The underlying that sustains all life is defined by consciousness.

            Define "Life"?

            Life is nothing more than the journey or path of one's existence.

            Life-forms and how they are sustained? Each by the environment.

            Those who are more consciously aware of "Life" and understand how it is sustained, then they become more the wiser.

            As said before- Life does not require a god to be lived or experienced. Understanding Life does not require a god either.

            The simplest thing I can say about "understanding" Life is to remember just a few things-

            A)You are in control of your life- if you are not, then I suggest you do so.
            B)You are a human being with unlimited(infinite) potential.
            C)You are to protect and value your life, as well as others.
            D)You are to be completely honest with yourself about being honest with yourself, so you can maintain a higher level of integrity, which will keep you good.
            E)You are to maintain a civilized path for living. Uncivilized only leads to problems.
            F)You are to always strive to better yourself, so self improvement becomes a religious action.
            G)You are to consciously be aware of your own actions and the consequences that can derive from them. When you take action, it should be with the sole purpose of improving life, either for yourself and/or others.
            H)Live by your conscience, never mind, pushing it aside when it doesn't suit what you want or need.

            Okay, my rant is done.

            Btw Jerami- this post was not directed at you, except for the first sentence. Everything else said- was simply a run-off, down the line of further questions to be asked, after I said "define life". I'm just ahead on the responses, I expect next. lol

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Nice post.
                 but consciousness is a thing being sustained is it not and then it directs actions and thoughts etc
                 The consciousness then creates the illusions of the things perceived that we accept as reality.   or something like that ?? 

                That is enough of that.
                Don't want to make my brain hurt.

              1. Cagsil profile image61
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Jerami, if you are without any form of consciousness, then you cannot think. Much less anything else. hmm

            2. mom101 profile image60
              mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Robots I say, not to make fun or to put down your ealier rant but it seems to  define a modern day bond robot. Looks like, feels like, talks like, ??????like, but uh oh, without any form of consciousness.

              We are not robots, science can not and in my opinion, wont ever define "spirit".

              That is the Thread that ties us all together. That is the war that is being fought every second of every day. One entity sustains, one entity destroys.

              1. skyfire profile image73
                skyfireposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Funny to read people who have trouble understanding science are making claim like science can't define deluded concept like spirit.

                1. mom101 profile image60
                  mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  To my knowledge, they haven't.  Well, maybe, I just haven't heard of them doing so.

                  I aint talking opinion here.

                  1. skyfire profile image73
                    skyfireposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Have you performed any tests in order to prove spiritual dimension ? spirits in general ? What evidence backed up for that concept so far that you're discarding the scientific methods of verification ? Here is one for you to figure out - Not a single theist scientist or spiritualist in this world came up with empirical evidence for spirit or spiritual media. All they do is discard scientific method with their argument by personal opinion or delusion. Burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim, not a single spiritualist is taking this challenge to prove their delusion as fact.

                    You have to be rhetoric, attack science or discard your opponents objection in order to claim the validity of spirit or spiritual medium. You don't have the empirical proof for soul/spirit.

          3. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The Earth.

            Your turn. Answer the fricking question!

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Then the answer to your question is .. everything.

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                So I am god? Disprove it!

                1. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I do not disagree.  nor confirm.

                  1. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Then it must be true!  big_smile

                2. earnestshub profile image89
                  earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I always suspected it was a woman! Hi Sandra, how's the strine coming along? smile
                  They should have written the bible in strine. smile

                  1. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Well now that the truth is out, I will now translate into strine.  Don't stone the bloody crows, love thy crows mate! Love thy crows! big_smile

                3. Stump Parrish profile image62
                  Stump Parrishposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  If you are god and I cannot disprove this point, does it mean that any late night dreams about you I may have, can henceforth be refered to as religious experiences?

                  Laughter sustains the planet, in my humble, under-educated and over-stimulated brain's opinion.

                  1. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Sure as long as it wasn't a nightmare. big_smile

    6. profile image0
      rommergrotposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      My beliefs and activities outside my church must not contradict biblical teaching.  The truth of the Bibal can be applied to all facets of life.  There are many things in the world that will make you very uncomfortale if you are a true beleiver and you instinctively avoid them.

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That's kinda unfair because the Bible contradicts itself so...

        1. hanging out profile image61
          hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          name a contradiction please.

          1. profile image0
            Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            didn't you read that big list I posted on another hub at your request for contradictions?

            1. hanging out profile image61
              hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              no, i have been away.

          2. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            thou shall not kill... many christians kill.
            thou shall not commit adultery... concubines, polygamy, child rapist and more.
            thou shall not take the Lords name in vain... "in the name of Jesus Christ" everything get's done...all of it fruitless.
            though shall honor the Sabbath day and keep it holy.  Jesus said you don't have to, wait...then they say you have to and back and forth and no one actually knows the Sabbath day without a fight.
            thou shall not play "keeping up with the Jones'"... translation, poor people have it all wrong, they just want what we have but god blessed us over them and now they are just greedy and jealous.

            turn the other cheek... unless it's yours.
            an eye for an eye is only good if it's your eye.

            thou shall not falsely testify... every christian and their mothers mother seems to have seen Jesus and can testify to something they have never seen but call it a fact and call it true.

            thou shall not lie, cheat and steal...

            Christianity has ripped off all holidays from the pegans, they claim all science that they can twist to support their cause, theirs and use it unless it doesn't support their cause which it is then condemned and called blasphemy and a lie and stupidity.

            But wait Jesus said you don't have to follow those commandments anymore because Jesus said love they neighbor and yourself unless of course loving yourself includes smiting yourself and then doing it to other people and let's not forget the ever so popular...

            Honor your mother and father.. especially when they throw you out of the house for being god's abomination ie: gay, wanting to marry someone culturally different (ie: christian) and especially for not being christian.

            Jesus loves everyone...except for people who aren't Christians. Yes, the contradictions are endless and self serving. And "God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son for your sins."  Revelation: God destroys the World.

            1. profile image0
              Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              they don't claim ALL science - they claim a few jargon words here and there and come up with something completely different

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                lol, I said they claim all science that they can use as their and if it doesn't support their belief, they call it junk. wink

            2. hanging out profile image61
              hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              sandra what you have lengthily talked about are not contradictions they are flaws in people.  You said the bible contradicts itself and that was the basis i wanted your response directed to.  The bible does not contradict itself but people can seem to be contrary to what they know.
              A few outlandish comments i will just reply to:
              thou shall not kill... many christians kill. (none that i know of)
              thou shall not commit adultery... concubines, polygamy, child rapist and more. (again none that i know of. I am not catholic btw.. you must have read the posts about the differences between catholicism, christians and  christlikeians, this includes your pAgan reference.
              Sabbath day was instituted before the law of god given through moses. It is important to keep one day holy, whether it be sunday or saturday or both. BTW the romans named the days and not the christians in case you want to pin christians wrongly about that.
              From what i gathered about your post is that becoming a christian makes a person a worse person than they were before. I am sure that is a personal fear as i do not see that in reality.

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                When you are wrong, you are wrong.  The Bible does say those things but then gives permission to do them. 

                Your Sabbath reference is worse than all the other Sabbath day justifications I have heard yet.

                And Catholics are Christians, just like Mormons, JW etc...

                1. hanging out profile image61
                  hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  oh boy
                  have a nice day

                  god destroys the world... theres no one on it
                  lol and he makes a new one. the problem in not in the book i assure you.

                  1. Castlepaloma profile image24
                    Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Duty calls.

                    Have any land to sell for very cheap

                  2. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Sure buddy, it's your lie. big_smile

    7. Paul Wingert profile image80
      Paul Wingertposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Combining science with religion is like combining oil and water. "Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Stephan Hawking. Need to consider that Hawkin and other physisists have credentials that stretch into the next area code compaired to the Biblical and other religious writers of 2000+ years ago.

    8. peterxdunn profile image60
      peterxdunnposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Pray and see what happens (ziltch).

    9. IntimatEvolution profile image82
      IntimatEvolutionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I can only tell you what my son tells me, concerning his choice not to believe; "their is no scientific or logical evidence supporting God."

      As for myself, I'm of the generation where I don't honestly feel I have a choice but to believe.  I mean seriously, I'm too scared not-to believe.  But that's just me.  Do I have proof that God does exist?  No.  But I've never found any proof that he doesn't exist. 

      And yes, some would say that if God did exist there would be no world hunger, or AIDS/sickness, or famine.  And see, I don't believe in the "evangelical", stereotypical God as he is seen today.  So the fact that we do have world hunger, and the fact that sickness exist, to me is part of Gods plan.  Therefore it is not proof that he doesn't exist, only proof that he does.

      But still........., I would really like to know one way or another.  But then again, I have believed for more than 39 years, without needing any proof one way or another.

      1. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Atheism is just a religious concept.

        No belief system is required to not believe there are fairies at the bottom of the garden, or that the tooth fairy exists. smile

        1. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          It is all some kind of belief system, so long as it stems from the human mind. To say it does not take a belief system to know is like saying it does take a belief system to not know. Either side of the con --err-- coin, may look different, but they are still two sides of the same coin.

          It is high time, people give up this ridiculous self ideology by the pro or con point of view and actually engage the universe by the universes perspective, its thoughts, reason, design.

          Like a friend of mine recently agreed: to understand the universe, that is Creator, you must let go of this god/godless concept, this way of thinking and listen to the correct explanation of who you really are, not who you think you are or what think you ought to be.

          Therein is the sum and substance.

          Imagine how many people have gone through the motions of "living", yet never knowing or experiencing who they really are. By the time they do catch a glimpse, its too late, as their bodies give out from sustaining a facade. Sustaining the wrong creation {so to speak}...

  2. kephrira profile image60
    kephriraposted 6 years ago

    An atheist does not require proof that god does not exist, any more than I need proof that you are not an alien who eats everyone who posts a message in the forum threads you start. I just figure it is a safe bet that you aren't, and that he doesn't.

    1. StevenPayne profile image60
      StevenPayneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      An true atheist would be one who has studied all religion and come to the conclution that God is a myth that doesnt exist. To say I'm an atheist with no education upon the religon or God you speak out on....well wouldnt that just be a lazy faker? No offense meant, I'm an just trying to respond honestly to your post Kephrira.

      1. pisean282311 profile image59
        pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        to claim god defined as per own's believed religion is best requires same thing...reading all religions before reaching conclusion...how can one say x book is right or better before reading y book or z book and so on...

        coming to there is no god...well it is easy to reach to conclusion that god defined in religion is myth or half baked than to reach to conclusion that there is no god...religion can easily be understood as made by humans in good faith but it has lot of flaws if studied open mindely...

        1. StevenPayne profile image60
          StevenPayneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          But to have an open mind is to admit that one of these faiths might lead to God.

          1. pisean282311 profile image59
            pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            half truth...to be open mind also means that what if all these faiths are false...

          2. thooghun profile image87
            thooghunposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Atheism is not a position. It is the absence of one. The burden of proof lies on those who have a position.

            1. StevenPayne profile image60
              StevenPayneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              your postition is that those who believe are wrong! that is a position as much as a priest has one or Anton Levy. To say that there is no God of any faith means you must have become a learned person in said faith and understand its points of belief enough to stand in a debate with person to say you are wrong He/She/Being does not exist.

              1. pisean282311 profile image59
                pisean282311posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                well first let all religions debate over it and get to one god...then one can ask atheist to debate...considering the debate between my god is only god , itself is proof...have you seen anyone debating about sun?..yes earth's shape was debated till science provided with no debate proof...but now does anyone belief in what is written or not written in books about shape of earth?...previous religions believed that sun rotated around earth...do we see debate now?...humans evolve and with them religions too evolve...we must acknowledge fact that religions have contributed in directing human race...no doubt about it ...but claiming it to be ultimate authority , in spite of science providing solid proofs against many claims is taking religion far too seriously....

                1. StevenPayne profile image60
                  StevenPayneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  To take lite of religion, a thing that has shaped the world since its beginning is foolishness. Half the world is killing the other half because of it. Laws are made to enforce it. Religion, like it or not, is the center of what more than 80% of the world is focused on.

                  1. StevenPayne profile image60
                    StevenPayneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    So your proof of lack of evidence against a God is science?

      2. profile image0
        Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yet, A true atheist, having studied all theologies from both sides (sensation or equation) would rationally determine their findings circumstantial. So they must venture into experiencing both sides to make a --as you said-- non-flaky determination. Else, they are just as indoctrinated as those they claim to dispute/counter.

        I am highly inclined to believe that 99.9% of proclaimed atheists have:
        1. never experienced the full measure of any theological doctrine, from either vantage point.
        2. The limited experience they did engage, was based on limited information of the doctrine in question.
        3. After the aforementioned, neglected their right to prove/disprove by other non-influencing doctrines.

        It puts them into a stasis of self preservation/justification, just as those engaging theologies. Thus, in a respect balancing/neutralizing the sensation/equation.

        What occurs is a denial and automated demand for proof from the former doctrine, because the massive missing logical space exists in them, or is tempered by a series of self designed "rationale".
        -That scares the C Dickens out of me, more than the religious crows...

        1. profile image0
          Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          To elaborate:
          Some, not all, atheists, respect human life and call for a complete indoctrination of "love", "empathy", "compassion"; Yet, like their counter measures demand --by "peace", "politics" or in some cases violence-- the removal of "all other religious doctrines". This is conflicting, given the definition of the words used.
          This further promotes intellectual tyranny. And yes, that would be my choice of word to describe atheism. Intellectual Arthurian control, guised in self responsibility/humanism...

          1. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I couldn't repeat that.
               But I understand it and agree.

          2. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            So you are thereby stating that "education" is criminal?  Because intelligence makes people responsible for their own choices and actions, it is therefor irresponsible and inhumane? 

            Imagine that you learned something new.  Would you condemn yourself for the understanding you gained if it didn't disagree with what you feel is the truth? 

            Being ignorant doesn't mean you are stupid.  Everyone remains ignorant about something.  However, if you said to yourself, "yes this evidence doesn't agree with my belief therefor it is not true, then yes, that does make you stupid.

            However, if you said, "this evidence doesn't agree with my belief therefor I should re-evaluate my beliefs; then you are neither ignorant or stupid but you are trying to rationalize your thoughts and come to some sort of conclusion that makes sense all around.

            Particularly religious folks have a hard time understanding various meanings and are so well conflicted that it is easier to discount facts and evidence then it is to take a good look at what you think you believe.

            1. profile image0
              Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              it's easier to control people who don't think for themselves

              1. Castlepaloma profile image24
                Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                True

                People generally understand what is wrong or right. Too many rules causes too many conflicts and punishments worst than the crime.

            2. profile image0
              Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Your are equalizing "education" with intellect? Therein seems the root of "a theism" which is in fact a meme of The Ism and its inclusive doctrines called theism, they struggle against. So, yes, it is very inhumane, I suppose, to put yourself and others through such a torture and causality for a prize of control...


              Condemnation exists only in those who believe or need to believe/disbelieve a thing. It is impossible by all humanistic perceptions to learn anything. First, to learn purely would completely void all present educational methods. Second, to learn something would mean you know and understand the other things, have experienced them and can therefore "move forward" to learn some other thing. Can you name and describe a single petal of a flower, resting atop Sagarmatha, all its thousands of parts and why it came in to existence, its designers vision for it, its purpose?
              I mentioned this once before with regard the Platonic Picture, as well as Hume, Kant, especially Mr. Blakley, and not to forget the Gardenia Great himself, Epicurus. No knowledge is new, and certainly education is nothing but a waste of human life --since a.) eduction is formed and fashioned AND most certainly forged/indoctrinated into everyone, by a set of belief systems human designed and b.) results in 99% humanity becoming slaves to a monetary system that has sustained all beliefs --equation or sensation, even mathematical. Slavery of the worst kind. Slavery that cries freedom...


              And what empirical, non human influenced, evidence exists? All evidence of men has been twisted to fit social need, self gain, self wealth, or a discovery leading to a false sense of truth, lectured responsibility and ultimately control.



              Which proves the point even more, atheism is the new racism. Religious folk include mathematicians, sensationalists, theologians and scientists. All are religious in their methods and wants to control their "destiny", their death and a universe they will never understand -- because they continue to use THEIR ways and ideologies to "learn" about it.

              If the last was meant toward me personally, what "I believe" would shake every preacher of every doctrine, be it the bead & beard toter in Shangri La, the white coat sorcerers in the dungeons of Balch & Lomb pharmaceuticals and not to leave out, the post-hippee, green-head haters hiding inside the Svalbard Global Seed Vault, on a remote island off the coast of Norway and especially, the church of atheism and all televangelists...

              smile

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You are therefor stupid?

              2. earnestshub profile image89
                earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Like I keep telling you. No belief system is required to recognize a pile of old cobblers when we see it. smile

              3. profile image0
                Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                that sounded intellectual (or was that philosophical?) but I wasn't "educated" by it.  Just because there is loads of information out there, doesn't mean people "know" it or understand it

    2. profile image0
      Deborah Sextonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      ________________
      Any time a person declares something as fact, they must prove it.
      Negatives can be proven. The reason you guys are always saying "the proof must come from the one who states a positive" is because you know there is no proof God does not exist.
      God can not be proven nor dis-proven.

  3. Hotplate profile image60
    Hotplateposted 6 years ago

    I think I'm going to need something that is atleast 150 proof to pretend like any of this makes any sense.

  4. Cagsil profile image61
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    Okay, I'm not into religion. Atheism is a religion. It's just an unorganized religion. It would be expected for it to be an unorganized religion, considering 2/3 of the population believes in some sort of a god.

    What Proof? Simple- the doctrines provided to ALL major religions are the same- the main 3 are all you have to look at to realize that religion is false as is it's claim to be "god" inspired.

    Doctrine #1) To be selfless- it's undefined by any religion, so with that said- it must be looked completely, so as to be applied to the entire duration or lifespan. When this is done and you apply "being selfless" in every aspect of life- you end up turning yourself into a selfish person.

    Doctrine #2) To Oppress Desires- it's also undefined by any religion- it must be applied to your entire life and it's length. If done so, leads one to become insane.

    Doctrine #3) Belief in a god- 100% erasing of doubt. This cannot be done because every human being, via human nature, requires evidence to bring the belief into knowing as truth. Since there is no real evidence, then a god or god would not be real, but just imaginary. It is impossible to erase all doubt and to keep it erased with regards to a god.

    Thus, since each doctrine are AGAINST human nature- it makes the "inspired" word of a god, meaningless and renders the obvious to become known- There is no god.

    1. Haunty profile image85
      Hauntyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Does that mean you're not an atheist? And all the atheist folk around here are in fact religious? lol

      1. Cagsil profile image61
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, I am of no religion including Atheism. tongue lol
        Actually, yes. tongue

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I think that I agree with ya.  I'll even go as far as to say that those that staunchly proclaim their atheism are evangelizing their faith.

          1. earnestshub profile image89
            earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Not believing in a god myth does not make one an atheist any more than not believing in the three bears.

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              This is true!   But what about evangelizing said non belief.  That seems to be skirting on the perimeter of what is understood to be and called  religion?

    2. thooghun profile image87
      thooghunposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I can see why you feel that some atheists are "religious" in their approach to denouncing the idea of the supernatural. But let's not call Atheism a religion, because it clearly isn't.

      We don't believe in the supernatural.

      We rely on reason and logic over faith. Which doesn't mean we can disprove the concept of God, merely that we find it highly unlikely. After-all, how do you disprove something which does not exist?

      We don't have an institutionalized belief system or spiritual leader, which is probably why we seem unorganized, because we actually have very little in common with one another aside from our humanity. Simply because Atheist is a non-position. Unless you believe we are all born theists and somehow "become" Atheists.

      I suppose what I'm saying is that, despite the zeal of certain atheists, it is entirely separate from religion. Unless, of course, you believe that trusting in scientific and rational models is a leap of faith (as many do).

      1. Cagsil profile image61
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I'm sorry YOU feel that way. Every GOVERNMENT in the world recognizes Atheism as a religion. Take your debate on that issue up with them.

        I'm only repeating what is said about "atheism".

        1. thooghun profile image87
          thooghunposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I don't particularly care what others say, unlike you. I like to make my own decisions, so don't feel sorry for me. Secondly, show me a single government that calls Atheism a "religion". I'm actually curious. A minority? Perhaps. But a religion?

  5. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    To answer the OP  I would say that the only proof of their being a God would lie in the fulfillment of prophesy.

       Which interpretation of prophesy would that be; you might ask.
    None of them.  The practice of interpretation of prophesy was allowed that the simple message became obscured.

       When we analyze what is actually written in the book of Daniel we see that all of these visions pertained to the first four kingdoms to receive dominion over the Hebrew Nation that these prophesy were delivered to.

       Modern theologians are getting rich bringing these characters out of the past and imposing them as being futuristic.

       There is a certain mysticism created this way.   Mysticism
    sells.
      When prophesy is seen from this prospectives it all fits into one clear and precise picture.

      The proof in in the pudding as they say.
        It is clear as Day that when the Little horn comes to his end, that Michael stands up for the Children of Daniels people.

       The Little horn was the 14 Emperor of the fourth kingdom to have dominion over that Hebrew Nation that was given into his hands.
        They were carried away until the times of the gentiles were fulfilled.   Carried away in 135 Thur 138 AD
       The times of the gentiles were finished  in 1844 when the Caliphate signed the declaration of tolerance allowing the Hebrews entry into the cities around Jerusalem.

  6. Briton profile image59
    Britonposted 6 years ago

    Children need someone to look after them , who do grown ups have? no one! thats who, so lets say we invent someone/ something that will look after us , God!.

    Sorry but think logically on this, with the whole of science at our disposal why are we still believing in this god figure?
    Only through the historical and habitual indoctrination from an early age by the teachings of persons who wish to excercise control over others, effectively, ritualistic habit and fear.

    All of the writings about "God" are from another distant age when the knowledge we now possess of science and natural evolution were unknown, it takes a lot of courage to overcome years of indoctrination and say- no this is wrong!
    The writings are there for control purposes and thats the only real function they have.

    Take it logically, a person tells you that there is this- all seeing all powerful being (ie)- "God" who knows everything about you and will punish or reward you in the afterlife.

    Also this person who tells you of this "God" is in direct communication with them and this "God" has ordained them to pass on the laws and rules, so do as you are told, and you will be rewarded in the afterlife, dont obey the rules as written by this person on behalf of "God" and you will suffer forever an eternity of pain such as can barely be imagined.

    Way back when this first came about people knew no better, superstition, fear, lack of knowledge of the natural world, lack of scientific knowledge, ignorance, and illiteracy.
    All of these things allowed the formation of religion, add to that being outcast for not believing, not following the herd, and being alone, could end up with your untimely demise.

    Who ever thought up the "God" control thing was on to a sure fire winner with the more primitive of peoples, who was there to argue against the trick or treat of the afterlife? no one ever came back to say how it was, so the spokesperson for "God" was on to a super way of mind control, and anyone who spoke against, was cruising for a bruising, or worse!

    And of course if it all went wrong in this life, even though you were pious in your belief, there was always some mystical reason given as to why you had endured the displeasure of the "God" and anyway had they the "God" not been magnanamous to have given you freedom of thought and actions,- sooo weeell reaaaly- its all your fault not the "Gods", who can, in their infinite majesty, do no wrong!

    Science and logic work against the "God" ethos, and before anyone points out all the wonders of life on earth, sweet cutsie things, there are also the nasties, disease, pain, deadly creatures, earthquakes, flood, famine, etc` etc`.

    Prove it exists, is all I ask, you cant, can you!

    1. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Terrific logical post! I agree, it is all a total nonsense. smile

      Myths from stone aged flat earth believing bone ignorant goat herders are hardly the basis for understanding anything.

      1. Castlepaloma profile image24
        Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I would not say the bible is not good for anything. After you can sort through much of the BS, there are a few good things to note and some mystic some fact history. I only want religion to shrink to where the people control it rather than religion controlling too much of us.

      2. hanging out profile image61
        hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        much better to hear from hollywood brainwashed, video playing, money worshiping, reality drones who consider themselves upright monkeys.

        my bets on the ones who heard the speech of God, primitive as they were to our ascended level of planet destroying, selfish, backbiting, name calling, intollerant, internet emboldened, false prophets. Im also betting that they were very advanced in their day.. as people will say of us.. evolutionist idiots, 2000 yrs down the road.

        1. Castlepaloma profile image24
          Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I must of missed in the bible where the upright monkeys came from, maybe up in the tree of knowledge some where. Are you not name calling them somewhat with brainwashed robots and zombie, yeeehaaa, which resembles a lot of people? It’s funny, when you play along with a groups  way of thinking. Some where along the way they will say yeeh!!! This guy is intelligent. Christian claim they live longer, enjoy better health, gains better job prospects than atheist. Being non bias, over all nobody is better or worst than the next guy. It’s getting along, sharing and evolving together in the same boat that counts. If 3% atheist of the world thinks they can get along without being on the same boat. You’re kidding yourselves like the North American native did.

    2. Stump Parrish profile image62
      Stump Parrishposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I can't say I've heard that said any clearer. Nice presentation. Peace

      1. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I agree. Very well stated. smile

    3. hanging out profile image61
      hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Children need someone to look after them , who do grown ups have? no one! thats who, so lets say we invent someone/ something that will look after us , God!.
      Nice inference but inaccurate. Grown ups do not conjure beings to look after them, any self respecting atheist will agree, they do not need a grown up, I don't need one and i would like to suspect that throughout history people did not invent things to look after them when they passed the age of, what, 30? Most civilizations had huge mortality rates back then after the deluge (flood) So really you only speak of now and not back then at all. Like i say nice inference.

      Sorry but think logically on this, with the whole of science at our disposal why are we still believing in this god figure?
      lol thats a question science is still working on. Archaeology is confirming and people who humble themselves before God know.

      Only through the historical and habitual indoctrination from an early age by the teachings of persons who wish to excercise control over others, effectively, ritualistic habit and fear.
      this would make moses the first dictator. God came to moses in the bush and said, i will free your people. Moses did not believe, God gave him miraculous signs, moses believed. God freed his people. This is not a scenario of man conjuring something up but rather being told something exists. Did moses get paid big bucks? Did he even enter the promised land? NO. Some great excerciser of control over others and fear ruler this fellow was. Perhaps that was NOT moses intent.

      All of the writings about "God" are from another distant age when the knowledge we now possess of science and natural evolution were unknown, it takes a lot of courage to overcome years of indoctrination and say- no this is wrong!
      Did science surprise God? Did one day when man was supposedly able to carbon date, was God surprised. When we looked through a microscope and telescope and saw other worlds, was God surprised? NO, no and NO. God does not come to people through the wonders of scientific discovery. God is completely different. All this time that has passed has Gods message changed? NO. It went from obeying a law that did not empower people over their sin nature and only condemned them; to a dispensation of power through the spirit of God and an open revelation of love. Timeless things belong to God. Timeless people belong to God. His word is as good today as then and it still says the same thing... love one another, love god. And as far as indoctrination goes. there are many religions and beliefs that say this world is but illusion and is a trap. The God of the bible emphatically states this over and over and actually demands it of people. So very easily i can say the indoctrination of this world has totally sucked you IN! and you believe it to be the only world or possible thing, not created just a big fluke! with plasma tv's and carnal delights. Jesus says, think not about this world but seek God first and God will take care of your needs. ( sounds like a disney land trip to me!!!!)

      The writings are there for control purposes and thats the only real function they have.
      Like your post and my post and everyone elses posts. We seek to control people through what we say. Disagree? Its what the court system seeks to do through the man made laws we establish and follow for fear of punishment. The sign on the lawn that says stay off the grass is meant to control people NOT to be on the grass, but don't ya just wanna walk on it lol. It is a twisted function of interpretation that makes a person only see control when rules are instituted for their safety and well being.

      Take it logically,
      perhaps the first mistake
      a person tells you that there is this- all seeing all powerful being (ie)- "God" who knows everything about you and will punish or reward you in the afterlife. and frees you from your enslavers and wants to give you your own land to live in peacefully  Also this person who tells you of this "God" is in direct communication with them and this "God" has ordained them to pass on the laws and rules, so do as you are told, and you will be rewarded in the afterlife, don't obey the rules as written by this person on behalf of "God" and you will suffer forever an eternity of pain such as can barely be imagined. Moses did not tell them this, he said god would bless and god would curse but these people did not know of afterlife, they believed in a resurrection but information about this afterlife was not known to them. the hell doctrine is catholic, not christlikeian. <-- my term for a true follower of God who puts the words of the bible ahead of his own self, as it is meant to be

      Way back when this first came about people knew no better, superstition, fear, lack of knowledge of the natural world, lack of scientific knowledge, ignorance, and illiteracy. All of these things allowed the formation of religion, add to that being outcast for not believing, not following the herd, and being alone, could end up with your untimely demise.
      again an inference. Egypt had its own religion. The people followed it or didnt, we don't know that 100% of egypt were followers of RA, HORUS and ISIS. We know that egypt (just for example sake there were other countries following made up gods. I am not saying that there were not made up Gods, that would be unscriptural. God says there are made up Gods) had other Gods. Today our the "Gods" are self and money, these are our idols, what is worshiped today, impossibly high raised bars, ya need a 50 inch plasma tv, ya gotta look like her, you can steal money to get ahead and still be an okay person, etc. but i digress, back to this post i am chopping up, Glory to God!

      Who ever thought up the "God" control thing was on to a sure fire winner with the more primitive of peoples, who was there to argue against the trick or treat of the afterlife?
      you are repeating yourself.. see above for both of these answers

      no one ever came back to say how it was, so the spokesperson for "God" was on to a super way of mind control, and anyone who spoke against, was cruising for a bruising, or worse!
      Jesus came back and no one believes so what does even a resurrection prove? It is only good for those who are there at the time lol. The OT jews did believe in being with God after this life was over, but they were unsure of what to expect. We have a clearer yet still foggy view of this. We know we will be raised to judgment and then to receive rewards. Again though, moses never profitted anything from his reign as a mind controlling ruler. He wandered the desert with the sinners and died on the opposite side of jordan from the promised land, in caanan.

      And of course if it all went wrong in this life, even though you were pious in your belief, there was always some mystical reason given as to why you had endured the displeasure of the "God"
      Let us look at Job briefly. Job endured the displeasure of the "God", did he not? Lost everything, sat on the ground in ill health and dust covered. Was his reason mystical? Nope Job 32:1   So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes. Job had a flaw, job was works based salvation.
                          Job 1:5   And it was so, when the days of their feasting
                 were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose
                up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according
                to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons
         have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
      Job had all his bases covered but wasn't god centered, job had his faith in his actions.
      When israel was suffering there was always a reason and the prophets directly told them so.


      and anyway had they the "God" not been magnanamous to have given you freedom of thought and actions,- sooo weeell reaaaly- its all your fault not the "Gods", who can, in their infinite majesty, do no wrong!
      You may have actually got something right here. Sin destroys a society, it weakens the foundations and causes strife and unbalance, murders and crimes.. etc. Unless of course you would rather live your life as the "Gods" puppet. Getting your hand slapped everytime you thought about sinning or contrived to take an extra 5 bucks from the till. I am sure you would not be happy and writing a hub about how you wish you had free will. lol. gotta think logically about all this stuff, remember?

      Science and logic work against the "God" ethos, and before anyone points out all the wonders of life on earth, sweet cutsie things, there are also the nasties, disease, pain, deadly creatures, earthquakes, flood, famine, etc` etc`.
      your point is.. that sharks cartilage is not useful, hemlock does not have medicinal ingredients, stingynettles aren't delicious as tea. Even the food chain sucks to you and why do we have it, boo hoo.. earthquakes are necessary as they relieve pressure, pressure is bound to happen and instead of a really big earthquake perhaps the "Gods" are letting some steam loose over here where it does the least damage because God had a sign that said "do not build houses next to this pressure relief valve" and someone ignored it.

      Typical atheist unthought post. just ridicule but no substance. and of course a following of likeminded sheeples. hahahaha

      Prove it exists, is all I ask, you cant, can you!
      the disintregration of your post should be enough to get you thinking correctly.

      1. Cagsil profile image61
        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Why because you used irrational thinking to supposedly out cast their opinion, when everything you said is conjecture at best.

        You insinuate "god" is real. Hence, the irrationality of your post. But, I'm sure you'll find something as a remark to say. Please do show your true self.

        It will be even more enlightening to all those paying attention. hmm

      2. Castlepaloma profile image24
        Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        hanging out

        Your last shorter post was rash but much more to the point.

        On this thread/posted above, I simplified a lot of what you posted. I question and challenge both sides, sometimes with slug hammer like much my post above 6:1/2 hours ago about God emotions.

        Still have been able to incorporate the best from all groups into my self conscious.
        What have you incorporated into your self conscious from other religious groups?

        It took a lot imagination and spirit for religion to run the world and lead crusade except recent science

        I can not imagine science and skeptics leading and imagination and spirit following in the near future.

        May be its time to learn from others skills and mind sets to get what you really want?

      3. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        from what I gather, the only illusion and trap to beware of is religionist extremists who claim absolutely they are right and everyone else is wrong!

        1. Castlepaloma profile image24
          Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Only family members’ living is my atheist mother and my Christian pastor brother. You learn to set yourself up right in the middle.

          It feels just about right.
          Like the three bears story.

          Extremists of any kind is unbalancing, especially religion

      4. Briton profile image59
        Britonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hanging out,    Whats with all the LOL? Boo Hoo? and Ha ha Ha bits? if you wish to counter an argument, please at least try to stay more or less adult about it.

        Cat calls and jeering do nothing for your argument other than make you look small.

        You mention Moses and how god did this and god did that and you quote many references from the bible, pointless!
        You were not there to witness what happened to Moses or if it even did happen at all, you are quoting from a document that originated most likely with the dead sea scrolls, and even those have alterations in the margins.

        As a very pertinet point the bible as you read now in your modern language started out in a very ancient language form,  Aramaic, /ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek, ancient Latin and so on, and so on through many languages, and in each one of those languages there are words that do not, - either exist in the previous language or the context of the words differ.

        So the document is altered in a continually obscure and subtle fashion throught the centuries, add into that the people who copied it through the ages, many would put their own slant on it as per their religious bent, or the religious bent of the person or institution paying them to copy it.

        Come over here to the Uk and have a look at some of the very old copies of the bible that are held in the specialist libraries, you will see what I mean.

        Blindly quoting texts from a book does not make you better than any other person nor more right.

        Your historical knowledge appears to be lacking somewhat also, the Ancient Egyptians venerated their Pharos as living Gods as well as having a god for just about everything else, also you state that God says they had false Gods, you can not prove that there even is a god!

        Christlikean! where did you get that word, lets have a little bit here on historical fact, the man Jesus Christ, was born, lived and Died as a Jew.

        Thats all he was, not a Christian, the followers of the man are Christians irrespective of their secterian or secular make up.
        At the time he was put to death, the ruling Romans then and for many years afterwards looked on the Christians as just another break away Jewish sect, as did the jewish authorities.

        The Jewish authorities who had this man condemned to death did so because he was upsetting the established order, and the nails through the hands bit , not a chance that will hold up a body on a cross, they just rip out, anatomy tells all. and the drink of vinegar, Roman soldiers drank wine vinegar, it was normal for them, so the vinegar thing was actually someone being kind, also finally the sadistic stab in the side was a mercy blow up under the ribs into the heart, much quicker than slowly suffocating over a period of days as your own weight restricts your breathing.( anatomy again)

        So to these people this" MAN" was treated as just someone else to be dispatched in the normal way, good job they did not feed him to the Lions, which was a quite common death for Blasphemers, how would the risen again thing have happened there?

        You state in sure and certain fashion that Jusus was resurected, there is no proof, in fact there is a wide archeological view that the moving of the body was just that, it was taken else where.

        Finally, I have never denied the food chain, where are you getting this stuff?
        Your style of refuting is to make up things I have supposedly written or to asign some obscure meaning to them that was never quoted.

        A bit silly really as people can read exactly what I have written, I stated there are many nasties in the world, and I do not ever remember any god telling people not to bulid on a fault line.

        And as for sharks, the seas dustbins, very nescessary wonderful creatures who are slaughtered needlessly in their millions, stinging nettles have been used since ancient times as medecine, most plants have, they are not nasties, but the burrowing parasit, bubonic plague, etc` are, shame you picked on a much maligned and misunderstood creature the shark, I note you did not mention disease, famine, flood.

        Sorry but your rational is that of the fairly atypical short sighted religious zealot who believes they are right and all else is wrong, and not one Boo Hoo or Ha ha ha did I send your way, I have no need to, if your god exists, Prove it!

        The trouble is, you cant, not ever!

        1. Stump Parrish profile image62
          Stump Parrishposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I think I just had a religious experience reading that. I have never see it expressed more clearly and sanely than that.  I have copied it to study at my leisure. Great piece of writing there Briton. I have copied it to study it a little more indepth.

          1. Stump Parrish profile image62
            Stump Parrishposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I seem to be developing a key board stutter, sry for the repitition.

        2. hanging out profile image61
          hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          it is ridiculous to talk bible to those who do not believe in bible. therefore skip replying to my posts as your negative input is not needed. I quote the bible, when you walk into a room that is entitled: christianity the bible and jesus and you know christlikeians are in da house, you better be prepared to battle on the same turf or your comments are futile.

          As soon as i read that you dissed the bible.. i stopped reading what you wrote and i will continue to do so. To separate a christlikeian from his bible is impossible.
          get used to it

          1. Beelzedad profile image59
            Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            "Them's fightin' words, Mister."  smile

            It's difficult to imagine having any reasonable or logical discourse with a mindset that would draw such a line in the sand, once crossed would bring forth the wrath of a god for which to be reckoned.

            But, with this wrath also comes a division, a wedge driven into the heart of mankind, separating people from one another in a quest for righteousness of one ethereal truth embraced and held over all others.

            What sort of cooperation, trust or benefit can be agreed upon under such limitations? How can any culture flourish that is founded on principles that demand complete autonomy over all other liberties ordering their own belief system to be an ultimate authority?

            smile

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              And yet ... A porcupine has a comfort zone than an armadillo does not find to be compatible.   Neither is better than the other.   
                They can live in harmony  but never in a happy marriage.

                 Yea I know  you hate my analogies

              1. Beelzedad profile image59
                Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I don't hate your analogies, they're just so much irrelevant word salad. smile

                1. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  It appears that a  A porcupine and an armadillo eat different food as well.

                  1. Beelzedad profile image59
                    Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, but does the porcupine eat kosher while the armadillo will only palate haraam?  smile

            2. hanging out profile image61
              hanging outposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Beely, i assume you are talking to me.
              when a person comes into a forum to debate, for debate should be the goal, one thinks, at the very least that, each person involved is on equal ground. For instance, i go onto the johnny carson show and my forte' is elephants in africa but johnny doesn't want to talk about that neither does he want to discuss the book about elephants in africa he just wants to diss elephants and poke and prode about how viscious elephants are and how nobody believes in elephants and occasionally tell me i am off my rocker.
              In this scenario there is no 'show'. Johnny and i have no dialog and nothing gets accomplished.
              When johnny calls me again, i defer to appear.
              Do i have to bring this closer to home for anyone who comes near christian conversation, proclaiming "there is a problem here!" and whom refuses to discuss bible topics in a forum clearly aimed toward christian or bibleology.

              1. Beelzedad profile image59
                Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                LOL! My sides, they are asplittin'. lol

    4. profile image0
      Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      that would make a great hub

  7. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 6 years ago

    Negatives/absences don't need to be proven, they are the null hypothesis.

    1. Briton profile image59
      Britonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Psycheskinner,        And once more please, in English.

  8. Briton profile image59
    Britonposted 6 years ago

    Just a bit of a clarification thing here, from me to all those who belive in God.
    If your belief gives you strength and hope, comforts you when you are down or in need of help, and assists you in being a better person, then I admire you for that belief.

    However if you use your belief in your style of God worship to become sectarian or vocal towards those of other religions, or to non believers, then are you really as true to your Gods taught principles as you could be?

    Have you knowingly or otherwise, backed yourself into a self rightous corner from which you do not wish to or know how to escape from?

    I was once as you are, only in my way, my religious upbringing was as a Christian, baptised and indoctrinated, and intolerant as taught by the ones who should have known better towards other religious groups, and that included other Christian sects.

    The intollerance and downright hatred I witnessed at times, ( Northern Ireland for one) started a train of thought in my head and led me to seek and search and question, not really the done thing to do that I was told, just accept what is there and be quiet.

    But in the end the turning point that caused the final breakaway was.

    If there is a God, just a single all powerful majestic being who sees all and controls all, then why would this majestic being allow his followers/ believers who irrespective of sectarian divide, or differences in the nuances and smaller rules/beliefs of their religions, attack and kill each other in his name?

    It just struck me as cruel, why would such a being be that cruel, how could they stand by and watch this happen with all the horrors that go with the strife of sectarian religious hatred.

    If you are a Christian and the other fellow is say a Jew or a Muslim, do you not all belive that there is but one god? and if you say you do, irrespective of who you belive was or was not a prophet or god manifested on earth, why are you attacking and killing each other?

    The excuse of freedom of thought and action does not wash, surely if this all powerful Being really, really does see all, know all, then would they not stop this needless slaughter of those who all profess to believe in them- the single God.

    So now you know why I do not believe anymore, but to repeat myself, if you are a good person in all ways and are prepared to believe and just to thine own self be true , then fair play to you, but I think you are more rare than common.

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I have had those same thoughts.   But .. 
           Let me turn loose a wild imagination.
          I do not subscribed to everything that my mind perceives as possible!   That said ...
      If there is an existence both before and after this physical realm we would have to rethink what this life is about. And how much of what happens to us is predetermined by us.

        Life would then all be about the experience! 
        We are born into circumstance.  Which we might have chosen. 
        We then have free will to create the fantasy for which we came into this world to experience.
        Some of us would rather die in battle, protecting the weak than to succumb to disease.
        Some of us may have chosen the life of excitement and intrigue. In which case we most likely will go out in a bang.

         Is death unfortunate?  That depends upon if we planed it that way.
         It would be nice if we knew these things as we travel through this fantasy  but wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

  9. thirdmillenium profile image61
    thirdmilleniumposted 6 years ago

    It is all in your hearts. If you believe, you believe. If you don't, you don't.
    The twain shall never meet

  10. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    Science has developed many tools for examining this physical aspects of this universe.
       How would you go about developong a tool for discovering unknown realities?
       When we can not comprehend what we already know?

      Until we sift through what we already have...  the unknown will have to remain unknown.

    1. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Jerami, you hit the nail on the head:

      That tool is void of human thought, although humans are able to use it. To have full access to it, humans must concede, that the tool they are using now is not the correct one. They have been trying to cut a piece of wood for centuries with a spatula {metaphor: the human mind}. There is a tool to discover and experience defined unknown realities -the spirit. But, not in the religious sense or practice most consider, either by religious experiments, lab tests or ritual words memorized and recited verbatim...

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I kinda think that we humans were given an adequate tool
        for discovering everything that is unknown.

        As children we were each given special gifts.
        Then the adults told us that that isn't real.
        And we eventually believed them;  since they were the ones with the cookies and hot dogs.

           Our futures were for our own making.  Anything imaginable was possible..  till we were told that can't happen.
        That isn't logical. Oh Well??

  11. puregrace profile image76
    puregraceposted 6 years ago

    Ah, but the thing of it is this, that God is pulling us along in the direction of His choosing! We make plans but God directs our steps. He has for each of us our own unique path in life - so unique that the words and actions of each person that crosses our paths, in writing or physically, even those who do not say a word to us, or do anything that we notice, affects us. Even the other creatures and inanimate objects in creation which we come across, plus the incidents and events from across the oceans, affect us in such a way as to move us in the direction that God chooses! So do we do wrong, or in other words, sin? Yes, and He uses even our own sin, and that of others, to affect us!
    Amazing!
    And the other thing of it is, He is doing it all for His Glory!

 
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