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People that insult "religious" people

  1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
    schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago

    I started a comment in the "Does God Exist" thread and it led to this:


    In the forums many people who say they are atheists or non-believers in God say things like:

    "if you were to compliment a religious person they wouldn't understand" or something like that.

    These generalized statements , in my opinion, are ways to insult.
    We are taught when we write to not use the words "all" "most" "every" because these terms rarely apply to all people.  The only term off the top of my head that I think applies to all people is that we are all --HUMAN. Homosapiens.

    So, generalizing is wrong in my opinion and insulting when one says "all religious people are crazy or can't think straight" etc.

    Do you know many people who believe in God are scientists, inventors, politicians, geniuses...and you are trying to tell me just because they believe in God, or a higher power, or a creator of nature, they are all crazy???

    This is unintelligent talk and used to insult and belittle others to try and get one's point across.

    It is immmature.

    No wonder most people stay out of these forums because it's like entering a "world " or a "debate" without rules.
    It's not Logical or Real.
    There are no facts just name calling.......and debate. mostly.

    1. secularist10 profile image91
      secularist10posted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I agree, it is always important to qualify things. There are many people who, in spite of their backward religious beliefs (and they often are backward), are very intelligent. Many Christian apologists are examples of this--thinkers who try to use their intelligence and intellectual might to justify their Christian beliefs. They fail, of course, but they are still making an effort to use reason.

      These forums can be tough, but in my view one is under no obligation to respond to insults or stupidity.

      1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
        schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        oh ok
        may I ask how you would respond yourself to insults??

        1. secularist10 profile image91
          secularist10posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Well, the first thing I do is try to not engage with anyone who seems unstable or petty or idiotic. That takes care of 90% of it right there--only discuss with people who seem serious.

          The second thing I do is always be as respectful as possible. Not saying I'm perfect, but after debating with countless people online and off, most people see me as tough but respectful. Many of my followers here on Hub Pages are religious believers, even though I'm very critical of religion in my  writings.

          If, after starting to discuss or debate things, someone attacks or insults me, I usually just make it clear that that means I win (because they can't respond on substance). And that's pretty much the end of the conversation as far as I'm concerned.

          1. calpol25 profile image76
            calpol25posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            If I get insulted I just laugh and think well my message is getting through, but if you rise to it then they have won, best thing to do is report it on your more button because were adults not children, and should be able to debate like adults.

            You see I get insulted a lot from religious people for being gay but I dont  answer back because I am very tolerant of other people and dont judge because I have been judged against all my life because of my gender.

            They dont see the person only the label, but do I answer back no, I laugh and walk away because I will never judge another.

            So report it dont take any abuse.

            1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
              schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              that's good point, I didn't know about the report button

      2. Stevennix2001 profile image84
        Stevennix2001posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Schoolgirl, I couldn't agree with you more but the reality of that is this, there are various styles of debating.  Yes, there are different styles of debate whether you want to believe that or not.  From what I gather from people who debate on hubpages, the vast majority, seem to lean towards a political style.  What I mean by that is this, you insult your opponent in such a subtle way like applying subtle insinuations about their alleged lack of intelligence or you apply subtle mixed humor to belittle your opponent.  A master of this type of debate can make their insinuations and insults so subtle that it'll look like they're merely making a point, while making their opponent angry enough to lose control of their words.  This allows for the master of this style to manipulate the words of their frustrated victim, and use whatever words they say against them by saying because of their alleged beliefs that they're irrational and stupid.  That's just reality.

        Is it fair?  Probably not, but who said life was fair?  The reality is the majority of hubbers here debate that way; especially in religious and political forums.  My only advice to you schoolgirl if you don't want to participate in these type of forums anymore, then I can't say I blame you, and just don't participate in them.  Seriously, nobody forces anybody to participate in them.

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
          schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I have a tendency to want to win debates
          and yes I do take this personal
          I think that's my nature or yet i don't yet understand debating

          1. Pearldiver profile image88
            Pearldiverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Then why are you practicing here with such an attitude? hmm

            1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
              schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              what do you mean?

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You have not shown any attitude schoolgirl, its another insult like you are talking about.  Don't let people tell you you have an attitude for standing up for what is right, not ever.

          2. Stevennix2001 profile image84
            Stevennix2001posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Well I doubt seriously anyone likes losing anything.  However, i understand how you feel though.  I for one didn't appreciate it when some moronic hubber called me an imbecile one time just for saying his crappy "Matrix trilogy" sucked in forums.  Granted, a movie series is nowhere near as sacred and valuable to people as religion is, but I do know how you feel in a sense that I didn't appreciate someone calling me out just for having an opinion of my own. 

            However, I'm over it now.  Besides, the guy and the moron that laughing with him were both idiots anyway, as they had the audacity to say that all films are commercialized.  Can you believe that?  I know some movies are like the Transformers films, but to say all of them?  Do people not know of independent films?  Federico Fellini anyone?  Anyone here heard of Akira Kurasawa?  Or seen the latest Martin Scorsese movie lately, huh?  God, some people are so stupid when it comes to movies.  I guess that explains why Transformers is always a hit at the box office.  wink  lol  I apologize if I offended anyone with that statement, but I was just laughing at the two people i was debating with at the time, and not anyone else here.  To get back to the topic at hand though.

            The trick Rosie is to not care what others think, even when they mock you.  If you get offended by their remarks, then your best case is just to ignore them.  Besides, the important thing is that YOU believe in what you believe.  Everyone else can go f*** themselves!  Just laugh it off.  Trust me, if you allow your emotions to get the better of you in any rationalize debate, then you could end up speaking merely out of emotion rather than rational thought.  Hence, it's never a good idea to let your emotions get in the way of debating.

          3. oceansnsunsets profile image88
            oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            School, everyone wants to win a debate.  A good debater will use facts, good reasoning, and logic for their debate.  What you want to look out for are people just asserting things as truth, and adding in assumptions right off in a debate.  Its poor debate skills to use the tactics we so often observe.  Sometimes, you have to look past the insults, to see where they are either maybe outright lying (or stating a non truth) or where there are assumptions in play that are beings posed as facts.  Ask lots of questions.  So far, you seem like a very fair minded person that cares about both sides and just want a fair playing field.  I hope all will want that too.

            1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
              Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I look past the insults and noticed that some unbelievers will spread lies, partial truths and add many assumptions and call them facts. This is a pattern which happens very often.

              1. PhoenixV profile image78
                PhoenixVposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                What do you think, best explains that pattern?

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Great question, and (I know I know!) but will let others go first.

                2. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                  Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Phoenix, I have stated your answer above.

        2. Shadesbreath profile image90
          Shadesbreathposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I get crap for my endless beating of this drum, but the difference between what you are describing and actual debate is distinguished by what Aristotle referred to as Rhetoric versus Sophistry.

          Rhetoric (in debate) is the pursuit of understanding and truth through proven techniques and tools of logic and argument employed by reasonable and honorable people.

          Sophistry is the pursuit of victory in argument using the tools of rhetoric regardless of which is the greater or lesser "truth" being argued about.  The purpose is to win for your side.

          What takes place on HP most of the time isn't even sophistry, it's just quibbling, semantics and emotionally wrought opinions.

          1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
            schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            yeah

          2. Stevennix2001 profile image84
            Stevennix2001posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You obviously never watched a presidential debate, huh?  wink

            1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
              schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I have actually!

              I just never thought it would be like that in here. After all it was politics so I didn't think of the two being together

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                When I came in here I thought the purpose was for discussion.  Period.

                    I still do not utilize a DEBATE format with the intentions of winning.
                    There is nothing to win, though some people may think that they win an extra dose of self gratification by belittling someone with differing views. 

                   If this is their goal, I am happy to oblige.
                This is but one more purpose to my life.   

                   In the mean time I will continue to express my views.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Jerami, I think that is great, and hope that all can do the same, express their views, (or debate if they want to, sometimes its more of a debate) without the insults. 

                  People that HAVE to insult, already lost the debate.

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Oops, and to add, those that insult, just made their points in a discussion moot.  They don't get to make a point and insult, and have their point carry weight.

      3. qwark profile image60
        qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Schoolgirl;
        Do you know that you must give your permission to be insulted?
        if you allow yourself to be insulted by someones remark, isn't that a personal decision/choice?
        I can't be insulted. I won't allow it!
        Someone will try to  insult me, but I'm in control.
        Why do you allow yourself to be insulted?
        Why can't you read the words and "consider-the-source?"
        If I allow my self to be insulted, I am exhibiting a weakness in my character.
        Qwark

        1. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hi qwark. smile

          "What others think of me is none of my business" covers it I reckon. smile

          1. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Right on the money Earn!...:-)

          2. 0
            kimberlyslyricsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Beautiful post mate, good morning to both smile

        2. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
          schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          hi qwark
          I never noticed who was good to debate and who was not
          niavely I thought people were good, trying to seek truth
          I did not know about the type of debate Steven mentioned where people want to subtled make the person angry and win.

          I thought it was about discussion

      4. 0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I feel the same way about the christians here who spout "all atheists are evil/satanists"

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
          schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I'm here to sincerely tell you my boyfriend is a non believer
          I don't thing atheists are evil unless they are mean or rude

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this
            1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
              schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              In that post, I said "many" , I do believe there are people who don't want rules, though not all,

              just a thought

              1. 0
                Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                and you said "perhaps"

              2. Castlepaloma profile image23
                Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                schoolgirl
                           
                Rules are healthy, for example
                .Do not harm
                .Love thy Neighbour
                Just simplified the rule to allow it to be possible without sin, quilt, regret, and punishment worst than the crime,

                That’s coming from a person who also believes in God too, just in a different way than the super natural, the be all and end all. It will always be the fight club till the end of time.

          2. Pcunix profile image91
            Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You think rudeness is evil?

            smile

            1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
              schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              no, but I think it is mean, or ignorant,
              or unnecessary because I try not to be.
              So being rude is unkind and makes me lose respect for that person.
              I could say evil...because "evil" is a word that to me the meaning can be many things and I use it loosly lol smile

              Just like I call people monkey kitty....I love to be silly....in my own way

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Its a good point, that it causes respect to be lost.  Being rude and insulting shows ones hand right off too.  The start off "losing" in that regard.  I say keep the insults out, and debate or discuss matters at hand, whatever they are.  I think this is better for all involved. smile

      5. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/59978#post1334078

        "Most" believers do not seem to practice what they preach. big_smile

        Correct me if I am wrong - but the bible gives pretty clear instructions as to what a genuine Christian does. Have you ever met any one who does what Jesus told them to do if they want to follow him?

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          The reference that I think you are making, ...  sell everything that you have and give to the poor??  was used to the very rich man that ask what he should do in order to be assured  entry into heaven.

            The other disciples were not directed to sell their property!

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Aww Jerami - how little you know "the Nonsense"

            Acts 4:32. And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. 34. For there was not a needy person among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales,

            4:35. and lay them at the apostles’ feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need.

            Luke 14:33  "Only the man who says goodbye to all his possessions can be my disciple."

            Luke 14:33 Concluded Jesus, "none of you can be my disciple unless he gives up everything he has."

            Luke 14:33  "Whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple."

            Luke 3:11 John answered, "The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same."

            Luke 6:30 "Give to everyone who asks you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you.

            Luke 12:33 "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. "

            Now "interpret" them away Jerami. lol

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I think that the  KEY  word here is  DISCIPLE !

                 A DISCIPLE  are  ONLY those that followed Jesus during his Ministry on earth.
                 Many Christians would like to be a disciple but can not be.  Maybe an Apostle? I don't know ?  But disciple ?  NOT !

                Concerning Acts 4:32 ??    They were selling what they had and putting it in the community fund that was going to fund a commune that was to be established outside of Jerusalem.
                 They thought that they were following the directions as stated in Matt. 24.
                 To flee Jerusalem when they see these things coming to pass;
              Wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes in divers places etc. etc.

                 If people would stop creating their own PRIVATE interpretations of Prophesy, and listening to interpretations of others they would find that  scripture actually says something TOTALLY different than what the churches are teaching.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Aww - Jerami - your poor command of English is letting you down again.

                A disciple is a follower and student of a mentor, teacher, or other wise figure.

                "Disciple" (Christianity), a follower of Jesus Christ.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disciple

                "any follower of Christ."
                "a person who is a pupil or an adherent of the doctrines of another; follower:"

                http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disciple

                Disciple has many meanings - one of which is simply "follower," or "pupil."

                From the Latin "discipulus" meaning pupil, student or follower. The fact that you prefer the meaning that means you do not have to follow Christ's teachings is rather typical of your belief system. 

                So - who is Creating their own PRIVATE interpretation? Me - taking the words at their face value spoken to anyone who wishes to follow? Or you - making the term "disciple," strictly meaning those apostles in his life time? Oh - and only that one rich person he was speaking to? None of which applies to you does it? lol

                You don't have to let a thief keep what he has stolen from you. You don't need to turn the other cheek. You don't need to love your neighbor as you love yourself. None of it applies to you - does it? lol

                1. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Is a disciple of a disciple of a disciple still a disciple?

                     If I studied under Professor So-in-SO 
                  I can claim to be his student. 
                     If I teach you everything that I learned ?
                     Can you claim to have studied under Prof. So-in-SO 

                     And if You teach to someone else, what you have learned from me ?  can they claim to have studied under Prof. So-in-So

                     The original definition of a disciple has changed over the past 2000 years as has so many other things.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                    Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    LOL In that case - using your faulty logic - there ain't any such thing as a Christian and  as none of it was sed directly to you - none of it applies.

                    Right?

                    Have we stumbled on the great Christian get-out clause? Moses handed the tablets to a band of wandering Jews - therefor the ten commandments do not apply to you? Eureka! lol

                    1. Pcunix profile image91
                      Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      But it is amusing to watch them twist in the wind.

                    2. Jerami profile image78
                      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      I see that you have not answered my question of, is a disciple of a disciple of a disciple still a disciple of Christ?

                      Hmmmm   .. seems as though you are avoiding and jumping onto a different discussion.

                        Is everyone that believes in Jesus and his teachings a disciple??
                      NO they are not!  - - - - -
                      ===========================================================   
                         You said  ...LOL In that case - using your faulty logic - there ain't any such thing as a Christian and  as none of it was sed directly to you - none of it applies.
                      - - - - - -


                          Did I say that ?      No,I didn't!   
                      You do not seem to understand what my logic is!
                      So why are you trying to tell me what it is.
                      you seem to be twisting in the wind! Not  ME!

        2. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
          schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          yes Mark
          its true alot of nice people do very bad things. I "apologize" for them
          though I try to be good, I know I can't be perfect. I think there are thou many many people both believers and nonbelievers who are very nice people

          1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
            schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I do think it's mean though for anyone to try and get others angry, I just as myself think that's mean

            1. mom101 profile image60
              mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              schoolgirlforreal,

              You are right in your thinking. We are not supposed to "provoke" anyone.

              And no, it is not wrong for you to stand up for what you believe in. Some people may not like it, but hey, you have just the same right to defend your belief as others who are doing the work of the evil one in trying to dissuade you of your belief.  So, go ahead and keep standing.

              People are cruel. But remember the words spoken on that tree many years ago, "forgive them Father, they know not what they do".

              I take that simply as some people don't know any better.

              1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Very true.

        3. oceansnsunsets profile image88
          oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Mark, the whole NT was the first to say that it can't be done, to be like Jesus.  It is the goal though.  Regardless of the truth of these matters, it still is no defense for insulting and rudeness to people.

          1. Pcunix profile image91
            Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Oh, yeah, and you all come SO close smile

            One thing the Jesus clan never will run out of is hypocrisy.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
              oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Jesus said it first.  To suggest that if one errs ever, or at all , or even a lot, isn't it still a good thing to try to follow the teachings of Jesus?  Absolutely.  To love others, help those in need, forgive others, go the extra mile. 

              Hopefully, you are not suggesting that if you can't BE exactly as Jesus, that you shouldn't try?  Regardless, this forum is all about should people put others down in the way of the examples she gave.  There is a clear cut obvious answer to this.  We see her point being made for her.  Its looking like truth is on her side, from the observable evidence.

      6. QudsiaP1 profile image60
        QudsiaP1posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Most people stay out of the entire religious affair only because seldom do they have anything intelligible to say and more likely they end up offending someone else.

        What may stand true for your religion may not stand true for mine, however, to argue about it without any logic is foolish.

        At the end of the day, all religions tell you the basics of right and wrong.

        Only those people find God, who take the interest to look for Him.

        People call religious people, fanatics or close minded but truth is that it is very broad minded to believe that their is one God, a higher power who destines all or who has created all.

        By claiming such, you are actually proving that you are not in control of anything except your freewill, now tell me, would a coward or a narrow minded person do such a thing? No...

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
          Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hi QudsiaP1, I fully agree with your comment. No, a narrow-minded person would do no such thing. Often close-minded is a reflection of the individuals who falsely accuse believers of being closed-minded.

      7. oceansnsunsets profile image88
        oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Schoolgirl,  you have hit on a growing problem with a certain group of individuals and it is directed towards anyone religious but especially christianity. 

        The thing is that many that engage in this, (I agree, very immature ) usually do so because they actually don't have much else to debate with that are actual reasonably thought out facts.  I know this because I have watched the arguments and debates play out.  I have done this for over 6 years.

        It is a sad state of affairs when there is such a strong need to attack the religious like this.  They use the heretics of a religion as their excuse very often and other poor reasoning tactics.  Its a thugging and bullying way to be, and should be outgrown. 

        I wish those that engage in this would resort to facts, reason and logic instead of what we see daily.  Its very odd indeed, that non religious types come and start threads daily in forums to bait, then go after religious people that have done nothing to them.  It is immoral, immature, and shows the core of that persons worldview.  I hope to get back to a more humane, live and let live mentality.  That would be great.

      8. wecare2listen profile image60
        wecare2listenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Be encourage, bec you know whom you believe.

        These people only have words; what comes out of their mouth comes from their heart.  Luke 6:45 ........  don't think they can behave in any other way.

        Most are affected by their past and ignorance. A number don't have good relations with their parents and have many hurts.

        All of these are disguised and hidden thru their social standing, status, and by insulting people; normally not purposefully.

        No use arguing with a fool.

        1. Uninvited Writer profile image84
          Uninvited Writerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          So, why are you insulting people?

      9. qwark profile image60
        qwarkposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Hello Schoolgirl:
        I've said this many times in these forum comments.I'm going to repeat myself:

        One cannot be insulted unless one gives his/her permission.

        I can't be insulted because to be insulted is a choice I make and I won't allow it.

        Why do you allow yourself to be insulted?

        If you are secure in your position, why don't you consider the source and go your way?

        Qwark   smile:

    2. habee profile image92
      habeeposted 6 years ago

      Hi, Ernest! Some people in the forums are vicious when it comes to religion. There are, however, plenty of atheists and agnostics who respect the views and beliefs of others, as long as these "others" don't preach and scream at the non-believers. For example, Ernest and I are hub pals, even though I'm a Christian and he's not. We accept each other and simply agree to disagree.

      1. Daniel Carter profile image92
        Daniel Carterposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Generalizing goes both ways. Atheists believing that all believers are worthy of insults is the same as all believers think that all atheists are worthy of insults.

        The truth is that there are many of both groups who have respect for people regardless of belief, and don't stoop to common, childish insults.

        Further, I think qwark, Earnest and habee have it right.
        smile

        1. wyanjen profile image87
          wyanjenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Agreed. smile


          Offense is taken, not given.

          Would a religious person be as upset about a perceived insult if the person slinging the garbage was of the same religion? 
          Or vice-versa?

          Let's test. Hit me with something, guys!
          lol lol

          1. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Ty Jen...:-)
            Qwark

          2. wecare2listen profile image60
            wecare2listenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            They say in counseling that all of us face transference issues.

            We say the things that have affected us.

            So it seems that you might have been affected by someone - probably a religious person (like your mom) who insulted you ?

            Care to clarify ?

        2. earnestshub profile image89
          earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thank you Daniel! smile

        3. qwark profile image60
          qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          TY DAniel...:-)

        4. oceansnsunsets profile image88
          oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Daniel, if you notice it is largely an attack on the religious here on hubpages, and all over the net.  People don't like being attacked for poor reasons and we should be discussing points and facts, not having to defend what people did ages ago in some spanish inquisition which many religions (but one) would be very against anyway.  Its not really fair to say that "well both sides do it" when it is really very lopsided.

          Then we see a siding, and what appears to be a more popular vote kind of thing going on.  No one wants to be bullied even as adults and by adults, so to point out it is happening is not giving back, but shining light on the fact it is happening. 

          Weaker types of personalities want to cave in to these bullying type that actually say some very scary stuff in the notice boards.  They (I think its a survival instinct, but shows great weakness of character, etc) tend to side with the bullies for SOME odd reason, instead of stand by their own conscience and let people be put down and very severely. 

          All should stand up for fairness for all people.  EVERY time you or anyone reading this sees others just put down other people, we should stand up for them even if you disagree with their core beliefs..stand up for their right to believe what they do. 
          Instead we see what we do, and daily. That is very odd behavior if you think about it, and shows a true weakness in the people that do it.  (and poor character.  NOT something you want to pass on to your children and community.) Stand up for what is right everyone, don't cave in to the schoolyard type of bullying we see on the net.  These are real people.

      2. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        We do get on well Habee, you are always respectful of people.
        Your tolerance honesty and decency show though.

        I don't recall you ever using your beliefs as a threat.

      3. 0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I follow some christian hubbers - the ones that are respectful.  The ones that do that "all atheists are evil" nonsense get dropped if I had been following them

    3. habee profile image92
      habeeposted 6 years ago

      Thanks, Daniel and Earnest! Group hug?

      1. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Absolutely! lol

    4. habee profile image92
      habeeposted 6 years ago

      Hi, Mark! None of us can be just like Christ because we're human and imperfect, but some of us DO try to model our lives after the example set by Jesus. I don't get all wrapped up in the trappings of organized religion, but I try to be honest, compassionate, generous, and tolerant of others. Admittedly, I often fall short and sometimes give into greed, envy, petty anger, lust, etc.

      That said, I agree with you that it seems that some Christians don't even try to follow Christ's example or teachings. I'll also add that the above virtues are not held only by Christians. I've known hard-core atheists who were truly wonderful human beings.

      1. Mark Knowles profile image61
        Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well - I am pretty sure being a christian or an atheist does not necessarily make one a good or bad person - I was just pointing out the hypocrisy in preaching against something that one does themselves. big_smile

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
          schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          yes , I agree alot of people are hypocrites
          so that is why I try not to judge

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image88
          oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Mark, in what ways did you find what schoolgirl said to be being a hypocrite?  I see that here she responds very kindly to you even though you said what you said. 

          As for the other part of what you said, I think each person's behavior speaks for itself.  We either see them acting like was described at the top of the thread, or not.  Its not apples to apples at all.  Just because "bullies run a playground", doesn't mean they are in the right.   People don't want to be bullied, thus you see what follows. Very sad and I am glad people are here talking about it. I wish it would stop, and that people would be kind, and not feel the need to insult and slip it in. I think sometimes its become so common for them, they don't realize or care.

    5. skyfire profile image73
      skyfireposted 6 years ago

      Yes. Want to know why ? Because you're pitching their authority as proof for god's existence.

      Next time you talk about logic in debate. Make sure you go through - Appeal to authority and Appeal to anonymous authority.

    6. Pcunix profile image91
      Pcunixposted 6 years ago

      I cannot have respect for religious belief.  I CAN respect a person who has such belief.  I can like them, admire them for things they do and be happy that they are as they are, but I can never have any respect for the nonsense that they believe.

      If anyone suggests that this person should not have the right to believe as they do, I'd be angry and defend them.  That is certainly "respect" and more.

      On the other hand, if this person is doing wrongful things because of their religion, I will attack them and their religion.  They may see that as disrespect.

      So, I don't know what kind of "respect" you are demanding, but I may or may not be able to give it.

      1. habee profile image92
        habeeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        No one can "demand" respect - it has to be earned. Well, I guess they can demand it. I can demand to win the Mega Lottery, but that doesn't mean I will. lol

        If those of us with religious beliefs would lead by example instead of "preaching AT" folks, perhaps we'd win more friends and have more of a positive effect. Some Christians have absolutely no respect or tolerance for anyone who isn't just like them. In those cases, how can they expect respect from others?

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
          schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          yes and
          some atheists are the same
          so I guess it's who you debate/talk to like secularist10 said.

        2. livelonger profile image90
          livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I think this is the right approach.

          Religious belief is a personal thing IMO; since it's unproveable, I think it's silly to expect/demand/force others to share the same beliefs. Respect doesn't come into any of it at all - I don't really know what anyone really believes, because plenty of people either lie about what they believe, or just don't say. At the end of the day, it's immaterial.

          What people do is what matters. No matter what your justification is for it, you're accountable for your own actions, especially as they impact others. There is a difference between respectable behavior and unrespectable behavior.

      2. wyanjen profile image87
        wyanjenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well said

      3. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
        schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Um I just want you to respect me
        as long as I'm not rude
        apparently I'm learning alot on this thread

        1. Pcunix profile image91
          Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          If you don't say ridiculous things, I won't point out that I think they are ridiculous smile

          Seriously, I don't mind minor stuff.  I'm not one of those atheists that goes nuts if I sneeze and someone says "God Bless you!".  I know it's almost a reflex.

          I don't get upset about a religious sentiment on a Xmas card or a minor thing as part of an email about something else. I'll quietly ignore all that.

          But when I get "REPLY TO THIS EMAIL IF YOU LOVE JESUS!", yeah, I WILL reply.  And it won't be pretty smile

          1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
            schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I suppose then you would expect the same if you sent out an email "REPLY IS YOU THINK CHRISTIANITY IS B.S.

            1. Pcunix profile image91
              Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              But why would I send such a thing? I never would.

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                We see that daily basically, being said in these forums and in certain peoples hubs.   Daily.  Its all over the net, and written about by top atheists.  It seems to be supported from the top.  I wish I saw more atheists asking the other atheists to just back off, and live and let live.  No one is hurting you, they believe differently. 

                This whole topic isn't about those that dish it out, it is about the lumping, and accusing and insulting we see all the time, unwarranted.  Its really gotten bad, and should be stopped.

                1. Pcunix profile image91
                  Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  It is dishonest to say there is no hurt. It is nearly, perhaps entirely,  impossible that an atheist could ever be POTUS.

                  Indeed, even much less important offices require belief or at least the pretense of such.  We have eliminated barriers for blacks, for women and perhaps even for homosexuals in some States,. But atheists?  We have a long, long way to go, baby.

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    So you are saying that the Christians in these forums have hurt you?  How have they done that? 

                    Even if that is taken off the list, the point of this forum thread is that they often come out of the gate with insults.  We all see it here daily.  I see that the people that are being insulted, aren't being hurt in a cause and effect way.  I am talking about what schoolgirl started this whole thread with.

                    Ever since, I have some putting her down and others down.  The proof is in the facts that we can all observe. 

                    If you think you are a true minority and treated badly because you can't be a President of the United States,  why would "you" (not you, unless you do this....) put others HERE down daily? 

                    Really, what you are doing is blaming religion for something that you aren't even sure of for sure, that is that no atheist could be a President.  That is a whole different topic and discussion, and doesn't really touch on the ideas that schoolgirl is bringing up.  She was sharing what she observes and we all do daily.  Its not right.  Its not a way to deal with even the perceived threat even if it were true which hasn't been established.

                  2. livelonger profile image90
                    livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    This is not strictly the fault of religious belief.

                    This is the fault of religious chauvinism, which is something else. There are many religious people, Christian or otherwise, who will vote for an atheist. There is nothing in most major religions that prohibits voting for someone for office who doesn't share your personal religious beliefs. 166,829 people voted to reelect Pete Stark in 2008 - were they all atheists?

                    We should all have a beef with identity politics and chauvinism.

    7. rebekahELLE profile image91
      rebekahELLEposted 6 years ago

        on both ends. plus an enormous waste of time IMO. what does it really matter what someone chooses to believe. nobody knows anything for certain.  we just think we do. lol

      but I do agree with someone else who said we allow ourselves to be insulted. an insult doesn't have to be taken personally. it's not about you.

      "there is no argument in the world that carries the hatred that a religious belief does."  Will Rogers 1924

      1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
        schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Then WHY are we even in this thread?

        Why are you 'wasting your time'?

    8. Mark Knowles profile image61
      Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago

      Jerami - There are 12 houses (disciples) in a great year, and each one of these lasts approximately 2160 years. The age of Pisces (the fish) is coming to an and - a new age is starting soon. Your "prophecies" are simply astronomical phenomena. The exact date is still in contention - of course - but we are in a transitional phase. Myself - I go with 2150 and we are on the cusp right now. 140 years to throw out The Nonsense - and it will not go without a fight.

      You do not actually believe in god nor do you follow the teachings of Jesus. You just defend that position. No one does. I have never met a genuine Christian. Never.


      Now answer my question please. Who is doing the interpreting? Me or you?

      1. mom101 profile image60
        mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Mark,

        Do you agree with this statement?   A closed mind is a closed door?

        1. 0
          china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          A christian offering this as criticism big_smile big_smile big_smile

        2. Mark Knowles profile image61
          Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          No. It is semantic dishonesty in order to attempt to persuade yourself that deciding that your god exists without any evidence is being "open minded," when offhand I cannot think of anything more close minded. Or do you agree that the Star Goat and Flying Spaghetti Monster are just as likely a possibility as the god you have decided wants you to fight for him? Rejecting certain ideas as making no sense whatsoever - such as the ones you propose - is not being close minded - it is showing common sense. If you have a rational argument, or some evidence in favor of - I am - of course - open to the possibility, but - you do not - do you? And until such times as you do - I reject your god as being impossible.

          Do you agree with this statement?

          There are an infinite number of possible gods.
          Therefore any particular god is infinitely improbable.

          1. mom101 profile image60
            mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you mark for your reply.

            I agree. My God is not impossible. He is loving, caring, providing and so much more.

            Most  people think He is impossible. I can't  tell you how happy I am that you reject the idea of  him be impossible.

            Through Him, all things are possible.

            No, I only believe in one Higher Power, Creator, what ever title you want to put on Him.

            So many people make fun of  or make lite of God. I have yet to figure this out. He created them. He breathed life into them.

            All I can figure out is, hurting people hurt people. This is the only logic i can find behind their motive.

            BUT, thank you. All this time I was under the impression you thought God was not possible.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Then you disagree. I quite clearly stated that I consider your god impossible. Do you have a problem reading English? This is what I said:




              See above. Are you deliberately lying about what I said - or was it a mistake?



              Through who exactly?


              You are the one putting titles on it.


              No - people tend to make fun of people claiming this thing. The thing does not exist. Hence the fun. I don't believe in it. How could I make fun of something that does not exist?



              I see - so any one who does not believe this nonsense is "hurting" people? How is that exactly? You sure they are not just fed up of being told what they should be doing by people like you?



              Yes - your god is not possible.

              Odd. I thought I was pretty clear. Strange that - even though it is there in black and white - you prefer not to read what I said.

              Now answer my question.

              Thanks

              1. mom101 profile image60
                mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Believers as well as non-believers have the "right" to their belief. One would think without being tortured by the other for not believing the same way.

                If, I misread your post I am sorry.

                I do not lie deliberately.  I am not God, therefore I don't know everything. I do not even act like I do. There is a lot a stuff I have no clue of.  Nor am I perfect. I do make mistakes. That's a lil thang called learning.

                Oh I see. So, by your assertions, if we don't believe in something then we should mock and make fun of it?

                CALLING ALL CHRISTIANS, CALLING ALL CHRISTIANS: Mr Mark, if I read his sentiments says we should make fun of what we don't believe.

                Mark, I was not raised to mock. Anybody. Period. I have poked a little fun here and there but in good humor. I refuse to mock you or any other non-believer because you or they do not believe the same as I do. Period.

                You sir, can not tell me my God is impossible. If you don't believe, that is your right, but you have no right in telling me my God is not real or impossible. Just because you say He isn't doesn't in any way prove that.

                I don't recall one single post, that I have read, poking fun of a non-believer. Defending our faith is in no way making fun.

                If you haven't noticed, there are hurting people in all faiths, even non-faithed people hurt. That is a fact. Studies also show that those hurting people hurt other people.  Why? Maybe, its their way of trying to reach out, maybe they had hurtful a childhood. I do not know the answer.

                But when you have walked in my shoes, seen with your own eyes, heard with your own ears, the miracles of faith that I have had the honor in witnessing, then you can judge my honesty or what ever else.
                But, I am sure you would just merely pass it off as .....whatever.

                You are welcome

                1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                  Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I agree 100% big_smile

                2. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I see, so expressing my opinion that your beliefs are dangerous nonsense is "torturing" you in some way? Please explain.

                  Clearly you misread my post, but I forgive you.

                  In that case - I am glad I have managed to teach you something new. You are welcome. Willful ignorance is the only true "sin."

                  If you are not prepared to keep it to yourself, and insist on trying to persuade other people to believe this war mongering which history proves causes ill will - yes. It is nonsense that always causes fights. Always.

                  No - please stop twisting my words. You don't stand there telling me an invisible being is watching me and will burn me for not believing - I do not make fun of you. How simple is that?

                  Good for you. How very righteous of you. I was taught not to suffer fools gladly, and educate those in need. Please stop telling me there is an invisible super being which we both agree is infinitely improbable (I took your refusal to answer my question as an affirmative) and I will stop laughing at this silly idea.

                  I can tell you whatever I please. If you can tell me there is an invisible super being watching me and judging me for not believing it it - surely I can tell you what I think. And boy, oh boy! doesn't it bother you something fierce when I do the same as you do? Are we getting through yet? My opinion that your god does not exist is certainly more valid than your assertion. Because - as we already proved - there are an infinite number of possible gods, therefore yours is infinitely improbable.

                  I have investigated the possibility, and studied your holy book to determine the likelihood of your Invisible Super Being existing and - well - it does not look good from the empirical evidence standpoint. Nor does it look good from the common sense viewpoint. I mean? Seriously - think about it for a moment. The Star Goat has more proof in favor than your god and Her Doctrine makes a lot more sense.

                  I have every right. Your god does not exist. Please stop telling me it does. Thank you.

                  Passive aggressive attacks are still attacks. Why propose a "faith" that you need to fight about? I do not agree that homosexuals are sinners. Why cause a fight by stating you believe they are?

                  I do know the answer - so please stop proposing nonsense. If I am hurting you by telling you the truth - perhaps you should look at yourself instead of accusing me of being a hurting person trying to hurt you. Even your book tells you the truth hurts,. does it not? yet when I give it to you, you simply defend your faith. What a shame we can never talk properly.

                  Of course I will pass them off as "whatever," because I understand where they actually come from and these "miracles of faith," do not exist. If I told you I heard the Star Goat Speaking into my head, and She told me we need to sacrifice a goat every Saturday morning or burn forever - what would you think of me? Pretty sure you would not believe me and start sacrificing goats.

                  Not sure why on earth you think things that exist only in your head should be accepted by some one else as anything other than a delusion.



                  I forgive you. Now answer my question. Thanks

    9. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
      schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago

      I do think that believers like myself and from I've seen nonbelievers too, do take it a little personally when the other says they think the other's beliefs are folly.

      I don't think it's healthy. My boyfreind and I try not to bring up the subject because we'll never agree.  I do enjoy talking about it with others though of course.

      We all must be strong to our belief system I believe though, for it's part of who we are.  I can certainly respect and understand if someone does not believe what I do,,,because I've seen firsthand now in this point of my life, how much a kind and moral person my boyfriend is.  And he knows that about me as well. We love each other and agree to disagree.

      1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
        Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Hi schoolgirlforreal, It's disrespectful and rude when some of the unbelievers enter a forum which a believer has opened, and begin to ridicule the believer's faith. I respect and tolerate unbelievers, but I will not respect and tolerate this type of behavior of grownups. In spite of all the ugly insults toward my faith, I will continue to love them regardless smile

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
          oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Woman of courage, that is awesome, and an example of a worldview that has got it right!  ( I dont' know what your worldview is, but its not hurtful!) 

          You can love them, and also not take the ridicule laying down, nor should you.  Loving your enemies despite what they are dishing out shows incredible strength of character!  Keep it up!

          1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
            Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Hi oceannusunsets, Thank you very much for the kind compliment. smile I don't believe no christian or anyone should be a doormat. I strive in doing what's right and obeying the word of God. It's not always easy to love my enemies, but it can be done with the help of the good Lord. Love and blessings to you! smile

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
              oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Thank you Woman of Courage (fitting name as we are finding!)  That is very encouraging, and I hear you and hope to do that same thing.  Love and blessings to you too.

              1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You are more than welcome, and thanks for the compliment.smile

    10. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
      schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago

      I also want to add,
      that I like to discuss religious topics and yes they do piques my interest especially when I see them in the forums.

      But I don't think it's fair if nonbelievers call us believers "not good thinkers, or whatever they say"

      I personally don't call nonbelievers that,
      thought if I wanted to "rub it in" or do the same as them,
      I could say "their minds are not rolling on wheels they ought to" or quote Bishop Williamson and say,

      as he says nonbelivers think or modernists "Well 2+2 are 4 but why can't they be 5 or 5,000,000? It's more creative or broadminded to say 2+2=5."

      1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
        Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        No, I don't think it's fair either to be labeled  "not good thinkers" because we choose to believe in God.It's like saying christians are not intelligent because we believe in a God we can't see. We can't see air, but we all believe it's there. The insults never anger me, for I know God  is the ony one who can define who I truly am. smile

        1. 0
          Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          it's not difficult to prove the existence of air

          1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
            Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You are right, but we can't see air. It's not difficult to prove God's existence either. Proving God existence to me is a personal spritual connection with him, and experiencing the holy power of his presence. This is all the proof I need from an awesome God who I am unable to see. I truly respect your rights to disagree.

            1. Pcunix profile image91
              Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              But that's not proof.  That's just you imagining things.

              1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
                schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                apparently we're "wasting time" again here
                I feel like some of you get a real kick out of being 'ridiculous'
                it's really silly

                I suppose maybe if I was bored
                but I would rather the religion forums be seperated to christian/believer

                to atheist/nonbeliever

                cause I'm so sick of hearing bs.

                1. Pcunix profile image91
                  Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Ok, then what do you make of people just as convinced of something quite different from your god?

                  Are they imagining? Misinterpreting?  Why should YOU be right and they wrong?

                  Jews? Muslims? Hindus? What about Wiccans?  All imagining?

                2. 0
                  china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I note in many of your posts that you say you are sick of this or that thread and argument - and yet you keep responding.  If what you say is remotely true then the easy way is to stop posting in these threads because as sure as sand in the desert when you post your BS somebody else will question it or post opposing BS to match.

              2. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Pcunix, she seems to have presented proof that as proof for her.  She isn't trying to force her proof that is sufficient onto you. 
                You may have more proof needed before you believe if you would ever believe anyway.
                My concern is that people might force materialistic or physicalistic demands of proof onto God, for him to be real to them, and not only that, but according to their own personal demands. 
                It seems that he has given evidence enough for all, and that he by definition would be outside of the physicalistic universe anyway.  Logically, the cause for what we do physically observe has to fit certain parameters anyway.   Many that are very brilliant, scientfic and logically minded find God to be the best and most reasonable answer for what we do observe in the universe.  (And when observing mankind.)  It doesn't have to be enough for all people, but its sufficient for many!

            2. 0
              china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              god has never been proven over all those centuries, not even by people with strong faith who could also think and reason.

              Proof and faith are the two choices, you have faith not proof.

              1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I respectfully disagree with you. Proof and faith is a combination of God's true existence in my life. This is my experience and there is no need for you start a debate. I am done. smile

                1. 0
                  china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  This is not about a debate - it is about right and wrong.

                  You are clearly confused and wrong - faith is what YOU have and that means that you 'believe' in something that you cannot prove.  It is not a matter of whether your god is real or not it is a matter of language and the nature of proof.  I know that you understand the concept of proof from your attempt in the 'giants' thread to claim some kind of proof.

                  Saying something over and over does not 'prove' anything except the limits of your thinking.

              2. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Chinaman, do you mean to say that God has not been proven to you over the centuries?  He has been proven real to many.

                By forcing one's own held philosophy and worldview onto what can even be allowed in for evidence for said "god", you can set the game up to rule him out in advance.  Then you get an auto win.  This isn't good science however.

                1. Cagsil profile image83
                  Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  lol lol lol

            3. 0
              Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              terrible analogy.  How many people don't believe in the existence of air?  So easy to demonstrate - inflate a balloon etc. 

              Your feelings don't prove god

              1. kirstenblog profile image77
                kirstenblogposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                All feelings are true but not all feelings tell the truth smile

              2. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I hope everyone believe in the existence of air. It was formed by the awesome creator in order for us to breathe. I will not waste time to explain over again that a spiritual being will never be proven to exist by physical evidence. Love and blessings to all. smile

                1. getitrite profile image79
                  getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  So what other type of credible evidence is there?  Surely you don't expect intelligent people to just believe you, based on NOTHING but a book of outrageously flawed scripture!  Or do you refer to the "feeling" believers get when they think that they are experiencing God?  This is all subjective, and could be a TRICK. If there is no way to prove your assertions, then they are nonsensical.

                    No offense, but this could be simply an unbalanced mental/emotional state, which explains the erroneous conclusion.
                  What other non-physical evidence do you have?



                  It would be a great start if you could just stop insulting our intelligence.
                  TY.

                  1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                    Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    You are too funny smile You have a right to your own beliefs, and we as christians have a right to believe what we desire. Hopefully, you will use your intelligence to respect that. Have a Happy Day! big_smile

                    1. getitrite profile image79
                      getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      So by diverting to condescension you agree that there is no way to validate the premise of your religious beliefs?

                      Yes, you have the right to your own mind, and I respect that, but whenever someone else has poisoned it to the point of psychosis, I am compelled to disagree with you, on the grounds of human decency.

                      Again and again, you make assertions, without any sensible rebuttals to our rebuttals, yet you don't see the brutal dishonesty  and blatant disrespect you are exhibiting.

                      It appears that your belief is merely wishful thinking.  That's all.
                      You have no proof that it is anything more, yet you assert it as fact.

                      Oh! Have a nice day!smile

                    2. Beelzedad profile image61
                      Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      Using ones intelligence would require that we look closely at what we believe and whether or not those beliefs affect others. With Christianity, it seriously affects others in many ways, sometimes quite offensively, inappropriately and destructively.

                      These are not your rights under any circumstances.

                2. thisisoli profile image66
                  thisisoliposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Exactly correct, because it doesn't exist it will never be physically proven to exist. Although I might have to point out that you can see air with a powerful enough microscope.

      2. Pcunix profile image91
        Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well, I'm sorry, but religion cannot be defended rationally.

        You NEED to believe.  I understand that, and I think Julian Jaynes theory best explains why. 

        As to "folly", if the belief doesn't cause you to do something tragic to yourself or anyone else, all you have done is waste some time. In spite of the word "precious" often being attached to time, in fact most of us seem to find plenty of other things to waste it on, so that alone isn't folly.

        But if you waste your life and miss out on things because you think something better is coming later, yeah, that is folly.

        1. mom101 profile image60
          mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Pcunix

          The last sentence? Is this something you really stand behind? Just a simple yes or no would be ok.

          1. Pcunix profile image91
            Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Of course.

            But not, for example, someone who dedicated their life to something they felt was good - a nun or a minister, for example.  I mean someone who doesn't bother to enjoy their life in hope of a future life. That is folly, and is sad.

            I may not like what someone does with their life, but if it brings them happiness, I cannot call it folly.

            1. mom101 profile image60
              mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Pcunix.

              Many people waste their lives and in many ways.

              Having hope is never a folly. For the way i look at it, if we are having a bad day, and couldn't muster up some hope, that maybe tomorrow will be a better day, then, how awful that would be.

              Having hope is the future.

              1. Pcunix profile image91
                Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                That has nothing to do with what I said, but I do not disagree with you.

                Hope is fine. Doing nothing because of a fantasy is folly. 

                I may HOPE  to win the lottery this week. If I close down my business and sit down to wait for the drawing, that is folly.

                1. mom101 profile image60
                  mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Hope is the future. Anyway ya wanna slice it.

                  Without it, how lost we would be.

                  1. Pcunix profile image91
                    Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    False hope, hope with no possible basis in truth, is no better than being lost.

                    1. mom101 profile image60
                      mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      Hope, is in essence truth. 

                      Why would anyone hope for worse?

                    2. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                      oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      Therein comes the opinions and ones own beliefs, that there is no basis in truth.  Those that put hope in things different from yourself have very good reasons to.  You simply disagree with them is all.  The point is that no insults are needed to simply disagree with each other, what we observe, is not necessary.

                2. livelonger profile image90
                  livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I believe that's the basis of The Secret/Law of Attraction...applied magical thinking that has probably led more than a few people, sadly, to the poor house.

          2. Woman Of Courage profile image59
            Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Deleted

            1. Pcunix profile image91
              Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              What are you agreeing to?

              1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Sorry, I was not agreeing with you. hmm

                1. Pcunix profile image91
                  Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Oh, I understood that much. But what ARE you agreeing with?

                  1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                    Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Oh my goodness, I am agreeing with mom101 above post directly to you.

          3. Woman Of Courage profile image59
            Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            mom101, Agreed.

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image88
          oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Pcunix, this is not the first time I see you accuse people of religion of NEEDING to believe.  That actually isn't true of most of the people you might term religious.  That seems to maybe be a personally held belief of your own.  (That people that believe in a religion, NEED to.)  Just asking for more fairness, and less accusation, thanks.

      3. oceansnsunsets profile image88
        oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Schoolgirl, you are absolutely right, that when the first post from them is insulting straight off the top.  The generalizations and put downs are a clear window into these kinds of people and the worldview they hold.

        If they had true facts, good arguments and reasoning skills, and logic, then they would never need to resort to that behavior in the first place.  Very odd from a group that prides themselves on those things.  See how self defeating it is anyway to act like that?  I would think it would be a red flag that "what I am believing is wrong if I have to do that kind of thing".  (again, and again, and spend a lot of time,and upset a lot of people doing so.)

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
          Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          It's good to see someone else is observing this also. It's very obvious.

    11. earnestshub profile image89
      earnestshubposted 6 years ago

      Just a note on air. It's easy to see, just add smoke. smile

      1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
        Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        If that's what you believe. Keep the note. smile

    12. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago

      Can't stay long but will answer your question.

        But first what does  "There are 12 houses (disciples) in a great year, and each one of these lasts approximately 2160 years. The age of Pisces (the fish) is coming to an and - a new age is starting soon." 

      What does that have to do with anything that I have been talking about??

         Are we comparing apples to watermelons?

         As to your question ?   I don't think that I am changing the meaning of any scripture  just understanding what is written using as little interpretation as is possible.

        These prophesy that I am speaking of concerns different periods of time that are specifically referred to in the biblical scripture.
         The prophetic timeline as it pertains to our time is described in Daniel 9.
        It is written In 538 BC  that it shall be 62 weeks until they kill the Messiah.    568 years would be the same length of time as 62 weeks in prophetic time. This is not an interpretation but is an analytical conclusion.

        42 months of the beast blaspheming God would be = to approx 1650 years. 
        Counting backwards from  lets say 2012 would bring us back to 360 AD.
         We should ask ourselves what was going on around 360 AD ?

      1. mom101 profile image60
        mom101posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Jerami, I am so glad to see you are interpreting on your understanding instead of  merely taking another persons opinion.

    13. waynet profile image47
      waynetposted 6 years ago

      It's up to the individual if they want to be bible bashers and force all of their beliefs unto others in a holy way, but leave us normal people out of it!

      1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
        schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I don't really have respect for people who say silly things.
        I mean I thought people wanted to seek the truth
        or at least discuss without insulting hmm

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
          oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Wayne, I think the problem trying to be addressed is that we see lashback to all people of faith or religion. The ones doing this aren't limiting it to those that bible bash and force things on them.  They are doing it to all, and that is wrong.  To those in your life that bible bash you, you can ask them to stop.  Its not a good excuse for people to go out and continually try to hurt a whole group of religious.  That is what we all observe though.  Many are writing books about it now, they let loose and it causes their "followers" to think its ok to act in kind.  Its not.

      2. 0
        markbennisposted 6 years ago

        As an observer from the outside, I must admit!
        Jerimi you are very strong in your beliefs, out numbered and full steam ahead, I do respect you, you are determined and unresolved, unshaken and an example to faith, powerful you are in your pursuit of your belief!   
        You have got to respect some-one's persistence and endurance to constantly stand in defiance to what he believes!
        I think you deserve more then you endure, all the best, Mark.  wink

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          @ markbennis ...   Thank you very much, 
          ya don't know how much that means to me.   


          @ mom101    Thank you as well. 


            I can not reiterate enough how much those things that we were taught in our youth establishes  preconceived ideas that stands in the way of understanding what is actually written... 

              It would be harsh to say that every one,  believers and non believers are all unwitting victims of this process.
              Whenever we read anything, we have been programed to think that we are reading something one way when in fact the words do not say what we think that they do.
             Those invisible little addendums that seem to tag along with the words that are written, when they make their way into our minds.

          1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
            schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I think we should support each other like the others do.
            I don't see that happening much thou? hmm

        2. qwark profile image60
          qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Mark.
          "You have got to respect some-one's persistence and endurance to constantly stand in defiance to what he believes!"
          Really?
          Even if his beliefs are based on absolutely nothing but imagination?
          If you say yes, pls explain why.
          TY
          Qwark

          1. 0
            markbennisposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            You said:
            Really?
            Even if his beliefs are based on absolutely nothing but imagination?
            If you say yes, pls explain why.
            I Say:  If you believe his beliefs are based on absolutely nothing but imagination why don't you say why?

            1. qwark profile image60
              qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              ...I think I asked "why." ???

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                And  HOW  is this acting like an intelligent adult.

                   When a wise man and a fool are standing on a corner arguing with each other, back and forth, ... After a period of time ... It becomes difficult for passers by to differentiate which is wise and which is foolish.

                  Why is that?

          2. Jerami profile image78
            Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I very much appreciate this response...  REALLY!

            It says a lot.

          3. oceansnsunsets profile image88
            oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            People of religion don't believe in things based on their imagination, this is just another accusation really.

            1. Pcunix profile image91
              Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Of course it is imagination. There are no gods.  You can't see gods, praying to them doesn't work except to make believers feel better.  These are only imagination and wishful thinking.

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Pcunix, thank you for sharing your own beliefs here.  You seem to apply a held materialistic worldview to what causes a god to even be allowed to exist, for example that you can't see them.  If that is applied by one's held definition, and you don't see gods, then you will easily believe that.  If you think praying doesn't work except to make one feel better, then that was easy.  Others find the opposite to be true. 
                Jesus wasn't invisible, and spoke for/as one God. 
                It could be as you say, but I don't see evidence for what you say anymore than I do for the believer. 
                I respectfully disagree they are only imagination and wishful thinking.  I think that opinion may be wishful thinking myself.

                1. Pcunix profile image91
                  Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Jesus spoke for a god??

                  Thousands of insane people have done so and continue to this day. If the man ever existed at all, if he thought he was the son of a god, he was just one more in a long line of mentally damaged people.

                  I suppose some of you are aghast at that. However, it has to be the opinion of every non-Christian as well as atheists.  A Jew or Muslim can't very well think anything else, can they?

      3. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago

        I believe that hope is a whole lot different to faith in a fantasy as fact. smile

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          That is kinda hard to distinguish when that same fantasy has so many different variables one from another.

             To say with certainty that every variation of anything can be said to be real   or   not real, would be an overstatement of truth. 
            At least in most cases.

          1. Pcunix profile image91
            Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Typical religious silliness.

            Real things can be tested scientifically.  Your god stuff is not real.

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Now you are being silly!
                Are you saying that things not yet discovered are not real?

                Things not yet explained to your satisfaction are not real?

                You can express what the odds are of a given issue  in your opinion. 

                You call my beliefs a fantasy when you do not know what they are, other than I believe in a thing that many people call a higher state of being than mankind. 

                I think that for you to believe that YOU/mankind is at the top of the intellectual ladder in this vast universe is much more than just silly.
               
                 Now if I tried to draw a picture of it? That would be silly.

            2. Castlepaloma profile image23
              Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Something from John Lennon

              I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?
              John Lennon

              I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong.
              John Lennon

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                YEP ..   I also think the translations that were based upon prior perceptions is the main cause for the confusion.

                1. Troy C. profile image60
                  Troy C.posted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  What is real? Is reality based on physical evidence or upon faith based evidence. Reality is in the eye of the beholder. We as Christians walk by faith not by sight. Anyone can believe in what they see and touch, do not animals do this, but we are above the animals; just a little lower than the angels. Let us exercise our faith..
                                         Troy C.

                  1. Cagsil profile image83
                    Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Reality is NOT in the eyes of the individual. It actually exists outsides oneself.

                  2. Jerami profile image78
                    Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Our relationship with that power that is, which some of us call God can only be explained on a personal basis.

                       But there is nothing personal about the prophesy.
                    I harp on this a lot because when we interpret these from their intended message, This changes most everything that we should have understood differently.

            3. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
              schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I think I'm too young and innocent to be in here, like someone said before I'm a schoolgirl.

              I do know alot thou, I just don't like insults/insulting people.

              Come to my hubs people, if you want truth....

              1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Schoolgirl, you are NOT too young and innocent to be in here smile
                I am afraid that that is part of the intent of the put downs, and nitpicking and making you feel put on the defensive.  You are doing great, and keep up the good work.  I look forward to reading more of your hubs, especially if you are not about the put downs!  I don't like those either, and we need more like you no matter what they believe.  Just kind to all, wanting fairness for all.

            4. oceansnsunsets profile image88
              oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Pcunix said,

              "Typical religious silliness.

              Real things can be tested scientifically.  Your god stuff is not real."

              More put downs, as if the religious are typically silly.  This is a toned down version of much of what we see, but we see it none the less.  Not trying to go after you in particular here, because many are doing it and i don't have the time to respond to all. 
              Schoolgirl is absolutely in her rights to not like the insults and insulting people.  Isn't it sad that people keep on doing it?  We all ought to keep asking it to stop when we see it.  Just adult to adult.

              1. Pcunix profile image91
                Pcunixposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I find it quite amusing that you characterize simple statements of reality as insults.

                Your beliefs do not deserve any more respect than someone who claims that invisible pink unicorns created the universe - you claims are no different and every bit as deserving of scorn.

                I do respect your right to have these fantasies,. I would resist any attempt to prevent you from having them.

                I can even admire what some people do because they believe it. But the belief itself is nonsense.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  No, insults are insults, and its easy to tell the difference.   One's personal beliefs and opinons, and even assertions are not necessarily fact at all.  It is an excuse used by many (because enough do it and are not stopped, so its a group power thing I guess lol) to insult others. 

                  You prove her right by saying that her beliefs are parallel to invisible pink unicorns that created the universe, and that her beliefs deserve scorn.  The truth is that you are sharing personal beliefs of your own there, as fact, and putting her down for her beliefs.  She isn't doing that to you.  You accuse again of her beliefs as fantasy, which is really your own belief that hers are just fantasy.  This needs to stop. 
                  You allude to some good being done in the name of said belief, and that is at least SOMETHING, because many people are doing a LOT of good in the name of their belief.  It is often taught in the very scriptures they believe, so its a huge positive for that worldview. 
                  You are asserting your own views, and calling others nonsense. 
                  The belief she shared here, was that it was wrong to call others names and put people down.  You proved her right, and I disagree with you and agree with her.

                  1. Cagsil profile image83
                    Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    You should be a little bit more careful about what you speak of.

                    Not everyone voices their individual beliefs in a forum. Some people do use hard facts, which are known to the rest of humanity, of who are also not religious.

                    So please. If you want an opinion- then I suggest you go and find a bible to read, because it's filled with nothing but conjecture.

                    I don't voice my beliefs in public, because my beliefs are for me and not others. Things I know of, not believe in, is what's said.

                    It's unfortunate, you cannot tell the difference, when said. Not everyone is like you, going around spreading "irrational" beliefs based on some "god", made from their own mind.

                    And, "insults" are subjective. If you are offended by what is said, then you need to get over yourself or apparently you identify with the truth of the words spoken.

                    1. Druid Dude profile image60
                      Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      Wow . All of humanity?  You sure think highly of your SUPERIOR beliefs. Cloning is in the Bible. Better yet, A famous rock that people have searched for for two hundred years w/o success on the NW US coast, is on the east coast. Nova Scotia. Don't know how...sure I do.

                      1. Cagsil profile image83
                        Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                        Hey Druid, well it is nice to learn that you apparently cannot read.

                    2. oceansnsunsets profile image88
                      oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      Cagsill, you tell me I should be careful what I speak of, then go on to back what I have been saying when I say that we should stick more to facts and logic perhaps and less insults.  You share your personally held belief that the bible is nothing but conjecture, and that is fine with me, but it surely isn't necessarily fact.  I respectfully disagree that the bible is nothing but conjecture.  What School is talking about, is when people clearly aren't just sticking to facts and reasonable debate or discussion.  I agree with her. 

                      What do you mean, that I can't tell the difference between what you know of and what you believe in.  Are you suggesting all you say is absolute fact, and not any held belief or opinion or part of a held philosophy?   

                      You then accuse me of going around, spreading some irrational beliefs based on some god made from my own mind.  Now if not before you, you just totally proved School right in her whole point of this thread.   You don't now me first of all, and I am really new to the forums in this regard.  So I am  not sure what you are alluding to there?  You right there, do share personally held beliefs about how others believe and think, and then put down.  This is sharing with us also very likely (whether you may realize it or not) that you likely hold a materialistic worldview of your own, that all things can only be explained through that lense, correct? 

                      And no, insults are not subjective, and I think even when the giver of the insult is giving it, they know it also.  What is sad, is that some are so used to doing it, they don't really see how ingrained into their own thinking and acting out that it is, it has become a part of them.  You then put down more saying that if I am offended when you don't think I should be, (in essence) that I need to get over myself.  You then give an OR, which raises a false dichotomy.  Not necessarily true at all, and really just hidden insult.  Don't get me wrong, I dont' always take the insult personally, I am just agreeing with many here that they aren't necessary when holding adult, logical discussions and debates about topics.

      4. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago

        Here are some people who insult religion and everyone else with a mental age over 5! lol

        http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bf6_1180234718

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
          schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          that was horrible! it hurt my ears.
          I dislike rage music
          uggg

          so unpeaceful

          1. earnestshub profile image89
            earnestshubposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            and so typical! smile

            1. Castlepaloma profile image23
              Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Something wrong with that healer.

              Saw many born again but no limbs grew back to life, or no arms or legs or anything physical parts of bad damage overcomes.

      5. puregrace profile image77
        puregraceposted 6 years ago

        We really don't have to feel insulted when our religion is questioned.
        Christians only need to point people away from themselves and to Christ and let Him be seen.
        We humans detract from the truth; only Christ can show us Truth.
        I would suggest that together we look for Truth and not stop until we are sure we have found it.
        Knocking other people's beliefs doesn't help anything.
        We are all wrong.
        The Truth is found outside of this universe - He is transcendent.
        And He condescended to people He created by revealing Himself to us.

        1. Cagsil profile image83
          Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          roll

        2. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
          schoolgirlforrealposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          those of us who agree w/ you and i do and are sensitive are like little children and I do not belong in this forum.

          It hurts me like it hurts God

          Right now I am physically sick, I feel like throwing up excuse me
          say a prayer I feel better
          ty

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            No offense, but - doesn't this make you question your belief system? I mean - if you think your God gets hurt when people suggest that your beliefs are not based in reality - which seems to be what makes you feel like throwing up - what does that tell you?

            You think you are a better person because most atheists just pretend that god does not exist because they do not want to follow the rules like the good Christians who are so loving?

            And you seem to be demanding respect for this position. I respect your right to believe whatever makes you feel good. But - what makes you think other people should validate those beliefs for you? And - have you read the bible? I assume you have - but - did you understand it? It really makes sense to you to distance yourself from the physical reality we live in? Because god sent his only son to save you from the sin you were born into? And this life is just a test for the real life when you are dead? And you have so much faith in this and Jesus that you feel physically ill when some one questions it? I would be listening to my body - not what some old book or preacher says. Does this scenario really make sense?

            These are all good questions to ask yourself I think. They are certainly questions I asked myself when beginning to doubt the existence of this god thing.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image88
              oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Mark, you are proving her right actually. I haven't seen that she thinks she is a better person at all, in fact she is very honest and taking a very humble stance here.  She is feeling badly, and more is heaped on  Like that you are saying she is seeming to demand respect, when really she keeps repeating that she just wants to not be put down. You also imply or suggest above that she is believing something because it makes her feel good, when the opposite is obviously true. She is believing it despite the treatment she gets! 

              You then assault the bible she believes in, by saying that it can be believed by people that distance themselves from the reality we live in.  That isn't true at all.  You misunderstand what is simple to understand, that she was asking about insulting and putting down, and calling her belief the cause for that, which isn't true.  You make her points all for her, and so YES she does make a lot of sense. 

              If anything, it is posts like this that should bolster her belief.   Please consider not accusing so much please in the future.  Its hurtful, and this after she expressed her feeling badly is insult to injury. Some one needs to stand up for what is right here. sad

              1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Agreed.

              2. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Please do not twist what I said. Assault the bible? How is expressing my opinion about a religious book "assaulting" anything? I understand just fine thank you.

                None of this religious dogma makes any sense. I was not insulting anyone. Just expressing my opinion that religion is nonsense - which it is - cannot possibly be an insult.

                Does it hurt that people do not believe the same as you? Is this an attack on you? No wonder your religion causes so many wars if that is the case.

                What I suggested was - if some one feels "hurt" when they come across another opinion - perhaps they should look inside at why they feel this way. They will find the answer there. You assaulting me for offering good advice is not helping anything. Because the answer to her dilemma is there.

          2. oceansnsunsets profile image88
            oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            School, I am sorry you feel sick, and please don't feel like you are alone in feeling sickened by what you see in regards to the rudeness and putting down. sad 

            I feel badly that you were being truly genuine, and that you were really only proved totally right but that it had to take more negative insults to prove it.  It means you are actually on to something, see?

            If you think about it, its really another way that the truth is actually being revealed.  Think back to where you may have heard about these exact kinds of things playing out?   No one can make whatever is the actual truth, truth, it just IS. I hope that made sense.  My point is, that in the effort to hurt and put down, many are actually pointing to the real truth.  Isn't that odd?

            The world, history, and even this dilemma you brought up that we all observe, shows one view in particular to be real and true.  Let this be an encouragement to you!  No one can make a thing true or not, no matter how hard they bully or put down or gang up.  Whatever is true, will always be true no matter what.  That is encouraging.

            1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
              Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Deleted

              1. Cagsil profile image83
                Cagsilposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                You're right. That's about the only truth you've stated since you started here. hmm

            2. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
              schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              HI ocean sunsets smile!

              Yes, Jesus said He was not of this world and the world hated him and they will hate us too.

              I am glad if anyone benefits from this thread as you said, the truth coming out because for me, I care and it's worth the pain.

              God bless!

      6. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago

        Would this be the god that you say gets hurt? The one that got in a shirty mood so he wiped out mankind?

        Why would anyone feel concerned for a murderous psychopath?


          The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath.  He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies!  The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished.  He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm.  The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet.  At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt.  In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed.  Who can stand before his fierce anger?  Who can survive his burning fury?  His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence.  The LORD is good.  When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge.  And he knows everyone who trusts in him.  But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood.  He pursues his foes into the darkness of night.   (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

        I'd save my tears for all the victims of the followers of this insane belief myself!

        1. Castlepaloma profile image23
          Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Boy, that makes me sea sick........naah

        2. livelonger profile image90
          livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          You do realize this was written by a Hebrew prophet about 2500 years ago, right? And the quote basically says that the Hebrew God's enemies would be killed, not just anyone he felt like killing off because they didn't believe in him or didn't follow certain dietary laws or whatever? And at that time, just about everyone on the planet believed their god was in fierce battle with other people's gods? (Read ancient Greek, Roman, Norse or Egyptian folklore if you're unfamiliar with this)

          The long and the short of it is, except for the Karaites, who are so backwards in their practices that even Hitler didn't consider them Jews and so numerically insignificant that few even know they exist, no one reads this literally anymore.

          ...which makes your obsession about the violent language of the oldest books all the more puzzling. Do you not really understand how Judaism has undergone several transformations since the prophetic era?

          1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
            Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Earnest delights in making God appear evil by perverting the true meaning of the scriptures. He often spreads false information that God freely kills anyone who doesn't believe in him. What a sad way of comprehending the bible. hmm

            1. livelonger profile image90
              livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I think he's taking quotes like these out of context and assuming all religious people read this stuff literally. I've found that most Christians and ex-Christians still view Judaism through the prism of Christianity and thus misunderstand it.

            2. Mark Knowles profile image61
              Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Ah - this is interesting. So what you are saying is - as I do not believe in it - he will not punish me in any way - I will get exactly the same rewards after physical death as you do.

              It makes utterly no difference if I believe in it or not.

              Is that correct?

            3. oceansnsunsets profile image88
              oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Woman, Jesus clears up any misunderstandings regarding His Father in the New Testament.

              It actually makes sense logically, that if there is a God, that he would have the right to do what he wants with his creation.   He makes the rules, he gave all life, and breath for as long as he did.  That is a good thing.  We break the rules, and he still offers us a way back to him if we are sorry for those things.  He knows we aren't perfect. 

              Some seem to suggest that there should be free reign to do as one wants, to break rules set by a power that is over us.  We don't fall for that even in our own societies, and we know that justice is a good thing.  We don't have to understand fully all of God's ways, to understand that he is good, and that he is in his right to give life, and take life, and judge however he sees fit. That he is so kind, loving and merciful as we see, and patient is something we are lucky for.  He could be as other describe him.  The truth of this worldview, is found in Jesus.

              1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
                Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Agreed. Yes it does make sense logically. God is truly a loving and just God.

                1. Mark Knowles profile image61
                  Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  The Star Goat is indeed. Thank you for validating the belief that the Star Goat vomited the Universe. Odd that you did, but - blessed be you for that.

                  Praise Be! CHEVRE! How sensible and logical am that?

          2. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Livelonger:
            Why would one in the 21st century care?
            It can be interesting history to those who enjoy reading about our ancestors and their abjectly infantile approach to life and reality.
            Too many languages, too many interpretations, to many opinions, too much time passed, too many people trying to make something from nothing!
            Read it. Add it to your accumen of trivia then put it on a shelf to gather dust and return to the reality of the 21st century.
            Accept the "fact" that we are, unique, but dumb animals which will come and go, leaving nothing of value to an expanding, don't give a crap, universe.
            Qwark

            1. livelonger profile image90
              livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              About the prophecies of Nahum? I agree. Most of us don't care and don't need to care in the 21st century. They are not meant to be dictums for modern man to follow.

              They were written for a different audience, an audience that was used to a world that was much more crudely conceived and governed than we can imagine today. So it uses the brutal language of that time.

              There are things we say and do today that will be considered brutal in a few centuries' time. And rightfully so. But this does not mean that struggling to be "acceptably" less brutal today means that we are not on the right trajectory.

              The Jews of ancient times were just a bit more progressive than their peers, banishing human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, and (de facto) the death penalty. Even "an eye for an eye" was progressive for its time, when "a life for an eye" was the prevailing punishment at the time.

              We take on new modes of conduct and justice when we're ready to. The process of improving ourselves and our practices is a slow one. It's much like scientific progress - we make discoveries, the modern variant of revelation, when we have developed the tools to make them.

              1. qwark profile image60
                qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Livelonger:
                Evolution is evolution.
                My comment is consideration of all past history.
                Read it, take from it what you will and move on!
                Qwark

                1. livelonger profile image90
                  livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I have. What some of us see in past history is not some magical fixed truth, but stepping stones that lead to our present and that we can extrapolate for the future.

                  Of course, religious belief isn't necessary for this. But, by the same token, religious belief isn't necessarily a hindrance, either. That was my point.

                  1. qwark profile image60
                    qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Livelonger:
                    What'cha mean by this?
                    "... religious belief isn't necessarily a hindrance, either. That was my point."
                    "Necessarily" is the operative word in your comment.
                    It certainly isn't "necessary" but it certainly has been and still is a hinderance.
                    Did I read your comment wrong? Clarify pls. TY
                    Qwark

                    1. livelonger profile image90
                      livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                      It means exactly what it means.

                      Religious belief can be a hindrance, but it is possible that it's not a hindrance, either. Not all religious beliefs are the same.

                      1. qwark profile image60
                        qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                        Livelonger:
                        Quite correct.
                        There are innocuous religions.
                        I should have been more specific.
                        Monotheism is what I was referring to.
                        My bad!
                        Qwark

      7. skyfire profile image73
        skyfireposted 6 years ago

        Saying god exists above all irrespective of religion makes one brave and widely open minded and then running away when it comes to empirical proof for god's existence or your personal hypothesis of god or widely open minded religious views doesn't make one narrow or coward ?

        how convenient ?  yikes

        big_smile

        1. Castlepaloma profile image23
          Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I was just imagining being in the shoes of a Christian

      8. skyfire profile image73
        skyfireposted 6 years ago

        How to be a open minded person ? Start thinking logically.

        Be creative and create a god who sent his son from -

        Universe > out of Galaxies (2k/3k) select one > Milky way galaxy > Our solar system > Earth > Mary's womb.

        Why he sent his son to mary when he can simply program his species with one trigger of free will is blasphemy from skepticals. they're fools with narrow mind ya know.

        Now being a son of god christ did all the miracles but when it comes to his own life, he was like helpless kitteh on cross. Now try to be a widely open minded person and accept this helpless kitteh as god who's going to be your savior next time he visits this planet instead of finding flaw to his inability to save his life and in turn yours.

        Like this you have plenty of widely open minded logically rich creamy stories. If you don't bellieve in these open minded logical stories then your brain is closed to christ, so rot in hell.

        You're Graduate in open minded life.  wink

        1. qwark profile image60
          qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Skyfire:
          I'm just being bluntly honest. No insult intended.
          it is so obvious, after reading this comment, that you haven't studied the history and evolution of your fairytale, monotheistic beliefs.
          Your words impress me as having been originated in the mind of an easily led, close minded, extremely bigoted follower.
          What is frightening to me, is, that you have so much company. Your numbers are growing and will continue to grow as human population increases and deprivation, pain and suffering follow suit!
          Because of those of your ilk, the future for mankind looks grim.
          Qwark

          1. skyfire profile image73
            skyfireposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            sad

            Satanic Kitteh Tomcat cult hates you now. hmm

            1. qwark profile image60
              qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              ...lol I have broad shoulders!   :-)

        2. oceansnsunsets profile image88
          oceansnsunsetsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          More insulting, and condescension.  Not very descriptive of what is taught, nor believed about Christianity.   Saying its bluntly honest, but really expressing your own views onto others, isn't a defense of the put downs about not being open minded, or logical etc. 

          If you study and look, you will find that very intelligent people, some even adult atheists have come to believe in God with things like reason, logic and facts about the universe around us.

          That said, you can maintain your beliefs just like everyone else.   I don't see those that disagree putting you down, and that is a good thing.  That was the point of this forum, that people shouldn't put people down.  Oh well, some are able to not do it, others choose to. All choose.

          1. Druid Dude profile image60
            Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Ridicule of things poorly understood, always results in those doing the dirty deed ending up with Karmic teeh marks on there butts.

          2. skyfire profile image73
            skyfireposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Really ? Not less than that i see from Christians who are starting such threads and calling non-Christians narrow minded.



            Christians in this thread are calling non-believers narrow minded and coward and in fact they lack facts, knowledge science and empirical proof. Hows that for being honest?


            Good joke with Appeal to anonymous authority fallacy. Do go over this if you get time to google. By saying you need to study to me, you shown the disrespect and attempt of authority which you lack in rest of your posts and saying this without any valid proof or reasoning from your side.


            Purpose of this thread was to happily disagree if i remember but later Christians joined it for showing off their lack of knowledge in science and are throwing their ignorance on others by saying - adult atheists agree about god or some X number of scientists agree about god. Showing all types of flaws in their replies (more of logical fallacies). Christians are showing disrespect, false authority, claiming credibility in blown air and then asking non-believers to shut up cause Christians themselves lack respect and facts.

      9. donotfear profile image91
        donotfearposted 6 years ago

        And it rages on.................

        http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pWNLsV6RThg/SL_SbXF5GVI/AAAAAAAAAGA/wOl-02xXywo/s400/TheChurchLady2RFX.jpg

        1. Castlepaloma profile image23
          Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I love her

      10. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago

        qwark wrote:
        Livelonger
        After that explanation, it still isn't obvious to you that only one religious belief has grown over the past 2000+ yrs to the point that it has now gained the power, will and ability to destroy or reduce all life on this planet?
        = - - - - -

        Don't you humanity.
        It is governments that have that power.
        ========================================================
        Man is, genetically, the earths prime predator. It's programmed to kill.
        Monotheism has provided the desire and a way to realize the self-fulfilling-prophecy of "the-end-of-times."
        - - - - -

          If mankind is genetically programed to kill ?   Isn't this determine the end result ?   
        ==========================================
        Monotheism has fragmented humanity so seriously that it can never realize the synergy necessary to guarantee its survival.
        - - - - - -
            If mankind is already genetically programed to kill ?  I would that the propensity to become fragmented was also built in.   Maybe ? Monotheism has postponed the inevitable.
        ====================================================
        As human population ballons over the next 50 yrs and almost doubles, deprivation, starvation, disease, squalor. pain, suffering and despair will follow suit.
        - - - - - - - - -

           And is this also the fault of monotheism?
        ==================================================

             . . . . . . . human greed will continue to fragment mankind and guide him down the path to his eventual demise or reduction.
        If you cannot see this, nothing I can say will help.
        Study!
        Qwark
        - - - - - - - - - - - -

        I could not agree with this statement any more (after editing)

        1. Druid Dude profile image60
          Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          He's afraid of the Pope. smile

        2. Druid Dude profile image60
          Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Kill, Kill< Kill, what are you, a Marine. Is that all you perceive is negativity? No wonder your own little world is so scary to you.

      11. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago

        Most human behaviors are learned while young.

           Those people that running around looking for someone to call stupid, were most likely doing that when in 6Th grade;   
        to third graders.   

            Mad em feel like a BIG boy or Girl.

          I guess some things never change.

        1. Troy C. profile image60
          Troy C.posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Misery loves company and these discarded souls are trying to take people to hell with them.

          James 4:7 So submit to God. But resist the devil and he will flee from you.

          1. Druid Dude profile image60
            Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            With rockets on his feet!

          2. Castlepaloma profile image23
            Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            When I was a young child and for a few months as an adult I was Christian, also thought I saw the devil a few times. Since then, gave up Christianity, and never saw a devil since. Must been in the faith or the monotheistic idea's. God is personal and it works and do not intent to give people hell or insults just my honest and strong opinion. The key word is unattached; so many people out there are just a big bag of uncontrolled nerves.

      12. prettydarkhorse profile image62
        prettydarkhorseposted 6 years ago

        they both consider each other weird,
        they can't understand each other
        they are trying to change each other

        why not

        consider each other normal as they are
        understand each other
        avoid trying to change each other

        Good night I love you all! Good am..

      13. earnestshub profile image89
        earnestshubposted 6 years ago

        Well said skyfire, these religious threads are mostly set up to flog religion nothing else, and it can become nauseating.

        I will continue to keep them away from my children and their children.
        Indoctrination at an early age causes this madness.

      14. skyfire profile image73
        skyfireposted 6 years ago

        LOL of the Day.

      15. qwark profile image60
        qwarkposted 6 years ago

        Why is it that when I ask this very imporant question, I am ignored?
        My question is this:
        There is no scripture in any monotheistic writing that defines this "god" thing, literally. All that is offered is opinion and conjecture. What is this "god" thing other than "it" just being a concept?
        How can anyone be considered to be a credible "hubber" who writes about "it" as if "it" exists in reality?
        Why can't people see and understand the absurdity of a belief in something which is just a product of imagination and nothing more? Hmmm?
        Qwark   :-)

      16. qwark profile image60
        qwarkposted 6 years ago

        ...to whom it may concern:
        Intelligence and religion exist at opposite ends of the "reality" continuum.
        Qwark

        1. luvpassion profile image60
          luvpassionposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          How rude! big_smile

          1. qwark profile image60
            qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Hi Luv:
            ...but TRUE!

      17. thisisoli profile image66
        thisisoliposted 6 years ago

        "Do you know many people who believe in God are scientists, inventors, politicians, geniuses...and you are trying to tell me just because they believe in God, or a higher power, or a creator of nature, they are all crazy???"

        Very few scientists are religious, the percentage only goes in to the double figures when you include the Muslim demeograph, where the percentage of religious scientists skyrockets.

        If you go in to any western lab you will soon see how religious most scientists are. Geniuses are rarely religious, and even those that are religious rarely refer to god as a being in the sky, and instead have a more spiritual view point of the worlds interconnected being.

        Politicians tend to be religious because it gets them a lot of votes America.  However their actual actions betray their religious beliefs, and suggest that it is more than likely a facade.

        I consider anyone who is truly religious to be delusional, just as I regard the crack head who walks down the street talking to some invisible person outside my house every morning as crazy.

        The simplest way I can put this to religious people is 'there is nothing there'.

        1. 0
          Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I don't trust politicians anyway

      18. thisisoli profile image66
        thisisoliposted 6 years ago

        "That is a whole huge debate of its own, and not been proven at all.  That is your own belief, and I am glad to know of it.  Its not good science to say that its all fantasy though, when you don't know that for fact.  Right?  You do add more insult, saying we are making up nonsense.  par for the course?"

        Every world religious contradicts scientific fact, In Chrsitianity an example would be healing the blind, water in to wine, one fish feeding five thousand etc.

        Religion is about unnatural miracles. I don't think it is insulting to tell religious people they are imagining things, or try to steer them away from things.  I think it is actually helpful to stop people wasting one morning a week, and their donations, to something which is deluding them for something which does not exist.

      19. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago

        validate the premise of your religious beliefs?
        validate the premise of your religious beliefs?
        validate the premise of your religious beliefs?
        validate
        validate
        validate   ...  validate ??? ...  validate ??? 


        does any BODY  do that any more upon demand?




           Now if anyone wants to discuss anything;  now !  that is a different matter !

        1. getitrite profile image79
          getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this



          It is imposibble to discuss anything with dishonest Christians.  They will say anything and everything about their imaginary God, then when pressed for validation, they will cry "foul" or try to reduce the character and intellect of the person asking--by being smuggly condescending.

          What an arrogant silly delusion, based on supreme dishonesty.
          It is tragic that you serve a belief that causes you to sacrifice your integrity, intellect, morals, decency, and character, yet you think that you deserve to be taken seriously in a debate.

          This is beyond absurd.

          1. skipper112 profile image61
            skipper112posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            who said Christians were dishonest, sounds like a dishonest post to me. After all what is your point, do you have one??? Seems like you have no point except insults. Look in a mirror.

            1. 60
              Sword of Fireposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Insulting what one doesn't understand, ridiculing those of  spiritual beliefs, is the last refuge of ignorant people. Though it is true that different denominations  or philosophical leanings can react  differently, the main problem seems to be that each opposing party feels that their personal beliefs systems  are being attacked. Every one is doing it on both sides. It is patently ridiculous.

            2. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
              schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Hi skipper! How are you? smile

      20. seanorjohn profile image80
        seanorjohnposted 6 years ago

        Mark knowles answers questions in this forum , purely to drive traffic to his hubs.

        1. 60
          Sword of Fireposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Why would I read someone so obviousls bankrupt of anything redeeming. All he is is a pitbull. All reaction. Uh, did I say he's a reactionary? Yep, that's what I said. Hell, Bill Mahar is more intelligent than this wanker.

      21. illeagle profile image60
        illeagleposted 5 years ago

        I believe that all judgment is self judgment and people can only be offended or insulted by beliefs that they already hold about themselves.

        If I call you every word in the universe, only the ones that you've already identified with will effect you.

        1. pennyofheaven profile image83
          pennyofheavenposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Yes I am with you on that!

      22. mega1 profile image81
        mega1posted 5 years ago

        is this the place to insult religious people?  because, even though I am not what you would probably call religious, I feel like insulting someone about something and since there only seem to be religious people hanging round lately I will think of something insulting any minute to say to the religious ones (pardon me in advance, it's just the mood I'm in) but, if your religion is so freekin hot, why aren't you practicing it? like, you know, 24/7?

        1. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
          schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, well this would piss you off even more, wouldn't it, because if we were all perfect all the time, you would never cease to hear us praising God and "throwing God down your throat" as you say.

          Well, well, we are all human and never will anyone be perfect but we can try. Why not aspire to be good like Christ? Especially during Christ mas.
          My what a jolly hat your wearing. Was santa nice?

          Jolly old St. Nicholas learn you ear this way, don't you tell a single soul, what I'm going to say..... la la la

      23. schoolgirlforreal profile image76
        schoolgirlforrealposted 5 years ago

        God loves everyone

        He died for all
        not for one race, or one type of people...for all
        no discrimination

        Let us be the same and be kind to all
        we not judging but loving
        Jesus Christ showed by his earthly example as did other peacemakers
        My friend who is atheist, someone I never expected to admit that Jesus' teachings were good.
        We need inspiration
        We need good decent examples

        Perhaps this thread will inspire someone
        if it does it was worth it....all of it
        God would have died on the cross even if it saved one person, not just many.
        What a beautiful God of love we have
        What more do we need to succeed?
        When you have God, you cannot lose. You've already beat the world and the flesh and the devil and won.
        If you don't believe in God you may be scared to die or at your death bed change your mind.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eDJa2TaFrI
        I really wish you well.
        I've noticed that saints are very joyful at their deathbeds and peaceful. Oh what a moment to not "know what's on the other side" and to have spent our whole lives rejecting God or the idea of God, and it's too late then.
        Like the story of the prisoner who was sentenced to death.
        And the governor told the guard to deliver a message to him that he was found innocent and to set him free.
        But the inmate (like a hardened sinner...) refused to let the guard near him saying "No! Don't come near me!" And the devil hates anything holy.
        Then the prisoner found out he could have been freed but it was too late. He cried "No! I change my mind!"
        But on our deathbed, it will be too late to change our mind, our life of not believing , it will be too difficult to change at the last moment....in most cases,,,,,many people cannot even forgive themselves let alone be humble to be forgiven by a God....it takes alot of humility to accept Christ as your Savior...to admit you've done wrong-sinned and to ask for forgiveness and to accept the gift of salvation paid by Christ on the Cross....free! and not have to give back.
        Though once saved one wants to give back, to do good. By the spirit within him.

        But the road to heaven is narrow, and few there are that find it.

        Good luck.

        smile

       
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