What's wrong with using the bible against christians?

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Stump Parrishposted 13 years ago
A reader of my local paper (The Spartanburg Herald-Journal www.goupstate.com) sent this comment to our opinion section "The Stroller":

TAKE MY CHANCES': "A local reader" observes that as Christmas approaches there seems to be a proliferation of comments from people who tend to be somewhere between agnostic and atheist.

“There are a few things,” he says, “that I find somewhat amazing. For instance, the number of people who do not believe in God but quote the Bible when condemning the actions of believers. And there are those who try to justify their own low morals by pointing out that this Christian or that Christian has stepped off the path with a minor transgression. Atheists and agnostics should remember that if they are right and there is no God, when I die I will have wasted some portion of my life reading the Bible and going to church.

If we Christians are right and there is a God, you have wasted eternity. I will take my chances".

http://www.goupstate.com/article/201011 … f-burning-

I sent this reply to his comment: "In response to Randy Faulkner's comments about taking his chances on whether or not god exists, I agree that those on both sides of the issue of eternal damnation, are taking their chances. I don't believe in god nor do I fear the other superstitions that mankind has created. I don't worry about black cats in front of me, I will walk under a ladder at a moment's notice and have been known to purposely spill large amounts of salt with out the required safeguard of throwing some over my shoulder. If I am wrong and I end up in hell for my beliefs, I will cherish for eternity, the surprised looks on a lot of christian's faces as they get off the elevator and join me. I'm not sure which will surprise them more, the fact that they are there or, that all the people they spent a lifetime hating, persecuting and condemning to hell, aren't. To be honest I would prefer that a lot of christians mend their ways and start acting like their god teaches them to. If I am wrong and there is a hell, christians shouldn't have the right to spoil that world the way they have this one, for everyone who dare's to think for themselves. To quote that sage James McMurtry...When you gonna do like you know you should?"

When the reader stated "There are a few things,” he says, “that I find somewhat amazing. For instance, the number of people who do not believe in God but quote the Bible when condemning the actions of believers." Why should this suprise him. Most atheists and agnostics know more about the bible than christians do. Explain to me how the christians are incapable of seeing that a good portion of their lives are an abomination to their own god. That atheists don't believe that the bible is anything other than a great selling novel, doesn't mean they don't know what's in it. Any attempt by atheists to use bible verses to point out inconsistancies in what the bible says, and what a christian does, is nothing more than trying to communicate on a christians level.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many christians are experts at pointing out the short-comings of those around them but blind to their own.

Why does it bother christians so much to have their own book and beliefs used to point out how un-christlike they are?
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing is wrong with it. I rather am grateful for it. It encourages us Christians, to learn the bible better, and actually study the darn thing. That is the important part. So many Christian do not even know or understand the events surrounding a certain verse, or the historical accounts that were taking place when Jesus or Paul said this or that. It is so important to know this stuff. If you're to be a good Christian that is. It is very important.
  
  Great question. I agree with what you all are saying. Those that know the bible, know how to refute the verses properly and how to defend what is written. It is our job as Christians to know this information, and yet so many are blind to the meaning and reasoning.
  
  I'm curious to read more comments. I think this could get real interesting.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am constantly amazed at the lack of biblical knowledge those who use the bible for guidance in their daily lives, actually have. The reader whose comment I posted couldn't figure out that using the bible to prove christians wrong is nothing more than showing the hypocrisy of a lot of christians. If non-believers can see where the believers are disregarding their own god's words, why can't believers? I get a sense that these people feel they are incapable of being wrong based on the belief that they are always right about who is wrong.
  
  BTW, I know that this doesn't apply to all christians. I know that there are many who actually know what they are talking about. I find it to be sadly amusing how a christian college teacher who has spent a lifetime studying not only religion but the original languages it was supposed to have been written in, can have his life's work discarded by mainstream christians with at best, a high school education. For years he has been regarded as a respected athority on religion but, if it came out that this devout christian is gay, his years of study will be dismissed as garbage by those 8th grade drop out geniuses that seem to be everywhere here in the south.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I hear ya.
  
  It amazes me how a big lot of us, Christians, are usually the forerunners of spreading bigotry. The "Gay issue" is one such area, where we Christians, like to run at the mouth about and ultimately do people real harm.
  
  Whether you are gay, bisexual or straight you are a child of God created in his image.
  
  Who are we, especially as Christians, to stand there and thus judge a person for his/her sexual preferences?
  
  First of all- what business is it of ours?
  As Christians- make no mistake about it- OUR business is to pray for people, our business is to embrace people, our business is to be kind to everyone. Spread a little joy, you know. Furthermore, it clearly states in the bible that judging other people is NOT our concern, thus NONE of our business.
  
  How dare we judge anyone. That is not the acceptable behavior of a true Christian.
  
  Secondly- who of us is without sin?
  Well......, we are all with sin.
  Therefore, we as individual Christians need to concentrate our energy on our "own-self", our own wrong-doings, and work towards repentance.
  
  I become angry when someone judges another, and then has the nerve to call themselves a Christian. Judging another human being, is essentially the opposite of what it means to love Christ. Now, I know we all make mistakes. But seriously- the gay issue- is more than a mistake. It's an hypocritical embarrassment, and something to be ashamed of. I'm ashamed of the normal Christian behavior that is geared towards gays. Our bad behavior, is everything that Jesus stood against.
  
  Jesus never preached hate. Never. He clearly told us to leave the judgments up to GOD. He said to "love thy neighbor." He didn't say only the "straight" ones. It bothers me, it really bothers me. Denying a homosexual basic human rights, such as marriage is appalling. But to do it in the name of GOD is criminal. Because God never said nothing about gay people. No- Paul did. Paul, the man who NEVER met Christ. The man who persecuted people for a living. And Paul the man who wrote a lot of letters to communities building churches, not saving lives or souls. I think Paul, and his letters have no business in the bible. His words are misleading, bias and full of bigotry and judgment. Therefore, they are clearly NOT the word of GOD. You don't find hate like that in the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, or the Gospel of Thomas. How ironic that the councilmen who participated in the Nicaean council, which was put together by the Emperor Constantine, saw it fit to include Paul writings in the Canon. Paul's letters teach people how to control their neighbors, not love them. Again, exactly what Christ preached against- control. Amazing.
  
  Thus we have thousands of years of bad behavior, becoming acceptable behavior, just because Christians don't know their bible. It's terrible.
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  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is one of the best comments I have read here on the forums - it shows a real understanding of Christian history. I am amazed to see someone who actually knows about the Gospels of Mary Magdalene and Thomas. (and I bet you know many of the others that were also not included.)
  
  You have examined and chosen to believe. I have no doubt you would never attempt to push your opinion onto someone else, either.
  
  Bravo. Well done.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with Winston, that was one of the best reads I've had on here myself. Thank You.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  a lot of people that no longer believe were previously christians - they got turned off when they read their bibles properly & examined the history of christianity & the construction of the bible
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Stump... I think you are my hero!
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This has been a hell of a week, first I get nominated for president and now I get to be the hero. As soon as I figure out this PayPal stuff, I'm going to sell autographed 8x10 s to finance my presidential campaign. Thanks sandra and I will do my best to be worthy...
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Most Christians (most believers in general) are indoctrinated into their parents religions, who were indoctrinated by their parents, and so on... with the vast majority of their beliefs handed down as opposed to coming directly from the bible. This is why most Christians know very little about the bible and why they are so upset when quotes from the bible are used to show just how little they do know. It must be very embarrassing for them.
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  DavePriceposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  These are the conversations that make me laugh the most because, as a Christian, I agree with you more than I agree with most of them. I do "believe", but that's really only relevant to me and no one else. Not my job to convince anyone else of anything. Certainly not my job to condemn, refute or otherwise engage anyone who doesn't believe what I believe. I believe my son is the greatest son a dad could ever have, but that could certainly be disputed by anyone else with a son. The same goes for any belief a person possesses. The best advice I ever got came from my Native American great-grandfather: "Son, there are a lot of people in the world, but very few human beings. Be a human being." Common decency, respect, love for others... are these really the exclusive realm of "Christians" or should we all aspire to the greatest qualities of human beings? "Can't we all just get along?" Ah well, one can hope, eh?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The Bible in the hands of the Devil becomes simply a tool for him to Bible-thump Christians with.
  
  Which is why the Bible is for Christians. It's not a Book that non-Christians can properly handle. Though they often try.
  
  Almost any proposal of a non-believer can be easily Biblcially corrected by a Christian. At which point, of course, the non-believer stops listening and usually uses the ruse of making personal attacks toward the Christian. Quite obvious, of course, but effective in some instances when the Christian loses their courage. And the "WHY" of it is, these days, because we Christians are now becoming not only conversationally under the thumb of "political correctness", but literally and legally, given the crappy legislators that are in our government. So yeah, it's a fight now for not only our moral compass but for our reputations as humans and in some cases for our very lives.
  Go figure. The one thing that shows mercy and justice to everyone has come under attack by those it has protected for so long.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda, I have often noticed how some unbelievers masterfully misquote the bible and use it out of context of it's true meaning. Some often misinformation in the bible without fully comprehending the words. It's a difference in reading God's words and studying it.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ironically, about 90% of those who believe themselves Christian haven't a clue either. Shame on the mess.
  
  Those who have actually studied it, read it, investigated it, actually learn how irrational it really is.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Bren, are you agreeing w/ Cag? Fine to use the bible, best way to spot followers of false teaching. Looking for a knowlegable bible scholar is like searching for a definitive diagnoses from ten different psychiatrists. Needle in a haystack. But, what if that book goes way beyond what our civilization envisions. Cag and others who disparage divine philosophy aren't equipped to argue truly accepted scientific aspects. So, they can use the bible, I can use the science they claim to believe in, yet, like christians, they know nothing about. Probably why only the densest of them still choose to engage me.
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  FootballNutposted 8 years agoin reply to this
  If a signage company wrote San Francisco is the next turning on the left, when infact it is the next turning on the right........would you blame the company that wrote them signs for causing the disasters and life loses their signs would cause? If so, then blame God/Jesus for the misdirected signs we have followed in that silly book. Much love from the next Jesus trillion zillionaire.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
It bothers them for a couple of reasons I have observed.

They hate to see the quotes from their doctrines denying what they have said.
For example "god is love" is easy to refute with thousands of bible quotes expressing the hate for it's adherents as well as non-believers.

The reason they can't stop trying to pick fights with the real world is that their sub-conscious mind already knows they are lying to themselves.

The more zealous they are, the more frightened they are of losing their faith so they retreat to a world that fills the forums with ridiculously titled god threads.

Just a few ideas.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I honestly believe that a good portion of them actually think that once a person reads the bible they are magically transformed into a believer of anything rediculous. I have read the book Eragon and still don't expect to find my dragon anytime soon. I have read Jack and the Beanstalk and guess what, don't expect any magic beans to appear.
  
  Personal beliefs in a super powered diety are just that, personal. They have no place in the real world, nor in how our country is run. I for one prefer a president that will act in times of trouble rather than doing as Bush did and praying about it. God can't even control his followers, why should he have anything to do with our government or country?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  very amusing
  
  God does not CONTROL his followers, recall please free will. The angels have no free will, God created people so they would never be puppets on a string. Read hanging outs hub, atheist show yourself.. it might clear the air as to what control by God might actually be like, i am surprised you did not consider this aspect before you typed what you typed.
  Bush has a different God that he prays too.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  what's very interesting is you promote hanging out's hubs and hanging out promotes yours. Also interesting that you just published a hub on the rubbish hanging out emailed me. Plus you have same writing style and lingo. Also, if you are the same person, you are not allowed to post on same thread as your sockpuppet - which happens frequently
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have 100s of negative quotes from the bible, and atheist can explain them better than the Christian can. If I paste more than three negative scriptures in a row to Christians, they will run off with fingers in their ears. Or dam me for too much light and darkness that blinds them and it’s just not nice. Or often they answer, you got to have faith.
  
  I shorten the scriptures now; mix with mainly conversation to keep them encaged.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I often wonder if this isn't what happens their heads. An under educated christian makes a claim and support this claim with the bible. The atheist refutes their claim with superior knowledge of the book and reasoned, critical thinking and proof if it exists. Rather than admit that someone who doesn't believe might actually have more knowledge of the aforementioned beliefs, they resort to comparing us to satan. Rather than admit that they need to study the book they whip out the satan card. Only in religion is rumor and belief more important to to an intelligent conversation than intelligence is. I have no problem admitting that I don't have all the answers or all the knowledge that exists. Why is it so hard for those who haven't done any real study of the bible to admit that someone else might have.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  or they go around in circles with some mumbo jumbo. I read the bible cover to cover several times - there are a lot of disturbing things in it. Christians skim over those bits or ignore them altogether. I remember when "bibles" of the 4 gospels only were being handed out to new converts
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Too many of them can't be truthful with themselves, how can we expect them to be truthful with us, All it takes is saying these 5 words, I don't know for sure. People who have convinced themselves that they know the absolute truth about a subject they haven't bothered to learn about, have no reason to listen to any arguement. It doesn't matter how logical an statement is or how much evedience there is to support it, if it disagrees with what the 8th grade dropout genius knows for sure, it's a closed subject.
  
  The mentality of these people seems to be that they actually know everything about everything. No reason to listen if you already possess all available knowledge. Too many people believe that by simply admitting the possibility exists that they could be be wrong about even one thing, means that everything they believe is subject to being wrong. What the hell is wrong with being wrong? If a few of them would try it just once and while some of these know it alls might actually learn something.
  
  I will never understand this fear of knowledge so many people have. They even fear the knowledge they should possess if they intend on debating the bible and religion. They simply rely on rumor and gossip for their facts.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  With a minuscule amount of editing.. this statement could be made into a sign standing on both sides of the fence, facing outwardly.
  
  I think that this is the greatest problem; Everyone points signs like this one outwardly. When we are usually guilty of doing those same things ourselves that we accuse others of.
  This is why we recognize these things in others so quickly; because we are so guilty ourselves that we can smell it on others from a mile away.
  
  This fact is so clear yet so few ever see it.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am usually aware of my moments of hypocracy. It does make me say WTF when christians fail to realize that close to 98% of atheists in this country started out as christians.
  
  It is possible that I am more in tune with the hypocracy of religion as I see other's continuing do the things I used to do back when I was better than everyone else, in my mind that is. I get the impression that many still feel as I once did. Simply by belonging to the church, I was superior to those who didn't believe as I did. It doesn't take long for this sense of superiority to manifest itself in the persecution of those who differ.
  
  The delusion that America is supposed to be a democracy allows the religious mob to feel the are above the rest of us. Sometimes being in the majority just means you belong to the biggest group of idiots.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't see this one earlier.
  
  Just wanted to say I think I know what you mean.
  I used to feel something similar.
  Try not to do it any more but am sure a little slips out once in a while that I didn't see. and sometimes do see and try to quiddit.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Stump
  
  About 98% Atheists started out Christians, I don't know if it’s that high, since highest rated country of Christians is the USA at 78%, yet it is very high anyways.
  
  Wondering, did Christian tried to make you feel guilty about knowing the bible, by telling you, your at risk of going to hell, far greater than the ones who are not aware of the bible.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Castle, not in any way was guilt the intended response to his statement. I'm not even sure what he was trying to say. My take on it is that he was upset that atheists would dare use the bible when speaking about a christian.
  
  I assume that he feels once a person become an atheist they give up the right to speak about or use their knowledge of the bible. Regardless of how little formal religious schooling the majority of christians have they seem to know in their heart that every little nuance of their beliefs is 100% correct. They will go to their grave disbelieving any opinion that differs from theirs. The person in question can be the expert in their field and the high school drop out wont ever consider the possibility they could be wrong, about anything.
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was assuming you were once a Christian too.
  
  I sense the Universe is 99% unknown to each and all of us, it hard for me to imagine anything so grand can be 100% sure.
  
  Just a random thought
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I agree with you
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
A slight change in brain chemistry would help a lot.
When the fear leaves, (such as with MDMA,) so does the religiosity!
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't aware of the connection between conditions such as MDMA and a lack of religious beliefs. It makes a lot of sense.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
To answer the OP There is nothing wrong with using the bible to debate with Christians or anyone else.

How else is anyone to learn about it.
We may not learn what you want us to?

And you may not learn what we wanted you to.

But exposure to some alleged facts was had on both sides.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree Jerami there is nothing wrong with it. As another mentioned, it gives a christian the chance to expand their base of knowledge. It's not suprising when presented with this chance to learn, the know it alls stick their head in the sand and hum. It still makes me laugh when I see or hear people who believe, not understanding or acknowledging that they don't have a clue about the true history and facts of their religion. Rather than taking the time to find out if what they know to be true is in fact true, They label the problem as the work of the devil and start praying. It does seem to be a lot easier than thinking or learning.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Many times I attempt to express what I think that the words in scripture are saying especially when people interpret simply stated verses into meanings that are not even implied.
  Especially when it comes to prophesy.
  And for me prophesy is important because I believe that prophesy identifies Religiosity as the beast mentioned in Rev. 13.
  
  Jesus had much to say about playing Church.
  But all believers that attend church are NOT just playing church.
  I think they are all doing; WE are all doing the best that we can considering what we were given to do with.
  It is written that Gods laws are written on our hearts and minds.
  Many Churches want to be the most important thing on earth to us. I think that our hearts and minds that these laws are written on are much more sacrid than the best of churches.
  
  Getting late and I'm not thinking right. So If I didn't expressed this well, I apologize.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I believe there is a lot of people interpreting the bible's words. This was one of the first problems I had with the church. Everyone has a different opinion on what each verse in the bible really says, and everyone of them is right, just ask them. The more I learned the less I actually knew.
  
  I personally respect intelligence, education and the ability to utilize critical thinking skills. I find very little of this in those who inhabit the bible-belt. Revisit the link to my paper, select opinion and check out some of the comments in the Stroller column. People down here have a slightly different out look on life and god and who get to enjoy the rights we are all supposed to have. If you are white and preferably male, you are god in the minds of a whole butt load of christians down here.
  
  You will also notice a lack of reasoning and thinking skills in some of the remarks, IMO. There is a reason the black school in the Great Debaters went to the Northeast to prove themselves. They announced that a debate team was trying to form in my high school and 1/2 the people who showed up for the first meeting, brought worms and their fishing rods.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing, as long as you aren't hitting them with it. If you can stump me on it, buckle your seatbelt and fire away.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What does Jesus say about people with the least amount of faith?
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They crawl through Weaver's Needle and find the Lost Dutchman Mine. Then they "Push the stone" with faith alone. Hidden beneath, Israeli's know is the Ark that they treasure, and the Islamics own. Oh, MY! Lions Of Judah! There before you shines the Grail. Take it. May it serve you well.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  'Tis the Rock Of Ages, Same one across the Aritmaean tomb of our most Holy Lord, among us this very day.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, I asked specifically what Jesus says about people with the least faith.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Grain O' mustard seed. Smallest in the garden. With just a smidgeon thou hast bought the Grail with thy honor and belief in the power. Rise Sir Sandra Knight of the Grail, Templar Exemplar.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah... try again.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeshuah said many things concerning faith. He always said the SAME thing. He merely rephrased it differently for those who were too dense to get it the first time. Can you find genetics and DNA in Genesis. It's not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of seeing what you are looking at. Staff of Life With the snakes that from the Greek Cadeucis? Can't see it huh. Maybe a new eyeglass prescriptionis in order. Y'all make a simple thing complicated and confuse your own understanding with redundancies.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I asked you a pretty simple question, no tricks, no interpretation necessary. I asked you what Jesus says about people with the least faith.
  
  Mathew 17:20
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just want to make sure you read it.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And just what, my little butterfly is your problem with moi? Have I done something to you to perturb your christian sensibilities. I happen to be defending your pitiful right to believe what you wish, free of harrassment from others who have no comprehension of strange ways. Got a prob. He also said " If they are not against us, then they are surely for us." and even Satan herself has the power to acheive a pleasing form, and can qoute chapter and verse. Begone vile viper!
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know where you got all that from. You said you could "stump" anyone who wants to challenge what you know about the Bible so I asked you a question.
  
  I asked you what Jesus says about people with the least of faith.
  
  You gave me something very strange, and then an even stranger post and then I gave you the verse,
  
  Mathew 17:20 "He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
  
  And I didn't know if you saw it or not, so I wanted to make sure you saw it and then you call me a "vile viper".
  
  So what is wrong with using the Bible against Christians?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Vile viper? Now wait a minute, you don't have to get personal, Dude!
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and I said: He always said the same thing. ABOUT ANYTHING> You believe you know, but you strain over a gnat and swallow a camel. Everything I said above came from the mouth of Jesus... Just checking to see IF YOU HAVE EVER READ IT>
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Only hearsay, if you want to get technical, Dude!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was not aware Jesus ever wrote anything or that he could even write at all! So everything purported to come from his mouth is merely hearsay. So, anyone have an explanation of why Jesus never wrote down his thoughts on religion himself?
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still waiting...
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
@ Ms Intimate E
You go girl ...

I think that just about covers it all; for anyone that has ears to hear.
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  IntimatEvolutionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks hon! I'm off to sleep. Nite nite.
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
What's wrong with using the bible against Christians?

They always try to explain that since those who have no belief or deny a "god's" existence, then they obviously do not understand what they are reading.

It's always a nice ploy to tell others that they are misunderstanding what they are reading, even when the Christians themselves have received it in hearsay format to begin with.

Ironic actually.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  In my experience, most christians have no idea how their bible came into being! They think god wrote it!
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  what are the four heads that flowed out of EDen Sherlock. Cag likes to criticize stuff he doesn't know thefirst thing about. BRILLIANT.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  not a christian. so i say what i feel like.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one cares anyway!
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brotheryochananposted 13 years ago
Interesting thought
heres a biblical one for you.

NOBODY can point a finger at a christian and accuse them of wrongdoing.
i'd love to leave it there but i won't

We are under the cleansing (biologically speaking) blood of jesus. We admit our sins and TRY to amend our ways. It has often been said that the christian walk is one of "learning over time" and because we have that time, we are not under condemnation.
Now people who have no idea what context is all about nor what it means, it means that i said that last sentence in context with bible principles. Yes all those other verses that are located hither and thither which modify and temper and correctly sail on course, what we say, according to scripture(S)
Sure you may be able to point out a christian who transgresses the Law of Christ. But there are also bad dancers, musicians and baseball players in the world yet they are not expected to be an example of all dancers, musicians, etc. How do the accusers know this is a one time slip up, or not? or do they assess this christian to be this way all the time? There are indeed so many variables, that to even come to a conclusion is sheer idiocy in its finest semblance of stupidity.
The problem is that many unsaved people judge people by what they would do. If some one is suspicious of anothers' lying it is because they themselves are acquainted with lying and know of its usefulness. Of course if they see someone murder another; the christian would reprove, of course, but the unbelieving can actually negotiate the reason for this.. "that idiot deserved it" or they can even gloss over it and read another article about green space saving in big cities.
To God, christlikeians (i love that new word) is to spend a lifetime, seeking, wanting, trying to abide in ALL of Gods ways, some of which never even occur to unbelievers. Do they believe that God actually wants us to cease from OUR own works? While one christian smokess a cigarette, which some would boo hoo at are they getting over a heroin addiction? God knows what God is doing even in the newest christian to the oldest, God is still teaching that individual and causing growth in the inward parts.
so God himself says "hands off that other brother! What are you doing with what i have told you to do?" Our chastisement comes from above and God is in control of our salvations. So if we die with some unfinished part of His work in us, we do not go to hell. Our salvation is guaranteed UNLESS we backslide and turn from the ways of God and end his work in US... until that time, we are righteous in Gods sight.
As far as bible context goes.. atheists never use a verse in accordance to other verses. They pluck out one scripture and say here ya go, God is killin people again. Yes he is and yaknow what He hasnt stopped yet and his final act of killing will be all the unbelievers in the lake of fire, while the poor stupid, narrow minded, bigoted, christlikeians saunter into the next phase of what God has for them. Atheists can never communicate to a christian on christian terms... read the forums is it not all hate and malice? quips and insults.. this is their idea of a higher morality and it is laughable if it weren't so sad.
hope this answers the question, if not i had a good time writing it lol.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So you are saying that people who are NOT christian's CANNOT use the Bible against Christian's because Christian's area always wrong and because the Christian's are trying to be righteous they know that Atheist are bad because God is going to kill them when he is finally done killing everyone who is NOT a christian?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You will have to email me; any attempt here may be construed as a personal attack in your poor understanding of what i wrote.
  and i think in your haste to type something down you made a major typo.
  
  Try this hub <snipped - no links in the forums> its mine. feel free to leave a comment if you like.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  surely it's better keeping everything out in the open rather than private emails
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  are you and HangingOut the same person?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
brotheryochanan wrote ...
Our salvation is guaranteed UNLESS we backslide. ?
- - - - - -
According to your scriptures (MY scriptures)....
Jesus died for everyones sins
2000 years ago.

What happened ?
Was there an expiration dare on that ??
When is that deadline?
============================================================
brotheryochanan wrote ...
Now people who have no idea what context is all about nor what it means, ? ! ...
- - - - -

?????? , So where should we begin to find the proper context ? Real question !
========================================================

many unsaved people judge people by what They would do.

- - - - - -
? ? Unsaved people ? ...

I thought Jesus died to save everybody ?

(unless there was an expiration date ?)
=========================================================

I was Just thinking out loud.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  to all others I can be emailed if you have a problem with i said. I refuse to get into discussions unless i am emailed. This thread needs not be hijacked. I said what i said and I 100% stick by it.
  Email me for answers to ALL my posts.
  thankyou.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
brotheryochanan wrote ..
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
=========================================

This is an issue that I have that no one seems to agree with.
As an example; I may be in a private conversation with one of my children or close friend, When I tell them privately that he can borrow my car any time that he wants to;

Now suppose that this person wrote this statement down, someone else reads that, Can this other person assume that they also can borrow my car anytime they want to?

I believe that this is how it is with scripture.
I believe that it is for a very important reason that it is written here in Mark 13:3, Matthew 24:3 that this is a .. PRIVATE CONVERSATION between the Lord and these four disciples.

If in a private conversation I were to tell YOU that
"they were going to take you to court and punish you .."
And they are going to put YOU in Jail
For when YOU see the police man coming up YOUR side walk "Know that the day has arrived"

When we read these things that Jesus said in this private conversation with these four disciples, with this in mind;
we receive a complete different understanding.

There must be a reason that it was specifically referred to as a PRIVATE conversation.
Nothing is included in scripture for no apparent reason!
And when we miss it ... we miss out on something.
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mattmilamiiposted 13 years ago
As I read the Bible I get the sense that it teaches that we should come together. Faith is meant to be a foundation for building and encouragement. Concepts like peace, love, and unity seem to fall inside this category. Just the wording…
(“What is wrong…?”), forces the reader to make a judgment based on criteria of their own choosing. There will exist as many splinter opinions as there are people; which tend to add to the breakdown of what ever unity that already exists. That’s the whole point of allowing judgment for God. All of us have sinned, not one of us is right… no not one, and there is no one good except the Heavenly Father. Christians, as well as every other group of sinners, have, and will always share this in common. Believers - and I’m speaking of those who at least try to submit their lives to God; have made the discussion to allow “His Will” to take the lead over their own. Seeking God diligently has to incorporate seeking the peace and love that “His Word” teaches. We cannot be the holders of what is good and perfect, when we are it mandates that the world bends to our will. I ask you, which does this posture resemble most - pride or humility? God is the only standard that prevents tyrants and dictators. Mankind is fallible, needing a standard that is outside of our thoughts and ways.

In answering your question I again point to the wording ("Against"). If we, Christians or anybody else continue to look for and use anything against others, we start our journey on negative footing. How can we hope to arrive at peace and unity while being against each other? Our struggle in life is not in finding fault in each other… instead it should be in understanding our own sinful condition and not allowing it to prevent us from coming together peaceably.
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  fits3x100posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hmmm. I really don't know where to start with this one. As for our friends that are lumping Christians into a generalized state of being, how dare you judge people for judging. Good Lord, could you possibly be more bigoted or hypocritical yourselves? Puh-leez!
  A few years ago, a Pastor from a particular denomination and a church in the Bible Belt showed up in a large town near us to protest that cities adoption of the rainbow sign on it's Police cars. There he was, on the 6 o'clock news bearing signs that read;(no kidding) Fags die from anal sex! , God hates Fags! , Queers burn in Hell!!! etc.etc. etc. My kids were between 8 and 12 years of age watching the news. I was angry at the local station and the Pastor for this introduction to the profane and unjust.
  "Daddy, are Fags people?" "Yes Dear." "Does God hate them Daddy?" "No Dear, he hates what they do." "Does the man with the sign hate them Daddy?" "I would say yes Hon, I think so?" "Then does God hate the man who hates them?" "No Dear he hates what the man does." "Which thing does God hate the most Daddy?" "Oh Sweety, we'll have to ask him about that when we see him, but I'm thinking both things fall far short of God's design. Just like some of the things we do, they just aren't right." "So does God hate us Daddy?" "No Honey. Just some of the silly things we do."
  Please, please do not make the mistake of assuming ignorance as a prerequisite of Christianity. Oh, yes, and please, please, don't make the mistake of politicizing the Bible or Christianity. The organized Church? By all means have at it! ps. Pauls writings were accepted long before the Council at Nicea or the Edict of Constantine...To call him legalistic is ...well...sorry...ignorant...take a peek at James if you wish to understand "Under the Law".
  Now to the issue of this Mamby Pamby Jesus Loves me this I know stuff... It is not our job to Judge...Agreed! It is our job to Love! Agreed!
  If you Love me...(and by all that is right under heaven, this is the only test) I mean really Love me, and you see me doing things that'll kill me, would ya say something? Please tell me yes!!! Don't Judge me, but please,please, please, at least call my attention to the fact that drinking battery acid is most likely harmful!
  The mistake here is in the "grading" of the sin. Is homosexuality a sin? Absolutely, but so is looking up the skirt of the little girl in the front pew Pastor. Ya see....it isn't just sex, or over-eating/drinking/hoarding/...it isn't just the acts. It's the words. It's the thoughts.
  The thoughts! Dang! I'm hung too! I don't like that I had to quit drinking Scotch 20 years ago. I don't like that I can't just have sex with who ever "blows me kilt up!" I don't like telling stories without the aid of my prolific ability to embellish. I don't like that I can't just walk down to the river and take home a fat brown trout. I don't like lots of things that God says I should do. But guess what folks? What I like doesn't count! Why?
  
  Because God...is God. And me and you...are not.
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  fits3x100posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yeah...please,please,please, use the Bible to judge Christians. Trust me ....God will too! and oh yeah...you'll know exactly what he's talking about when it's your turn eh?
  
  hehehe... Jesus is Love! Don't drink battery acid!!!
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's the easiest form of attack there is. No christian is capable of, or attempting to live their lives according to the words in the bible and yet, they use the very test they fail to judge others. Why?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me. So God doesn't like people to drink Scotch huh? Where do you guys find this stuff? No wonder you people are always fighting with each other and causing wars.
  
  I wonder what it would take to get you to keep what your invisible god wants in your head instead of having to share it? It is the sharing that causes the problems. Odd you get upset when some one else shares their irrational beliefs about what god does or does not want people to do - but are quite happy doing it yourself.
  
  Why is that?
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  fits3x100posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Some people Mr. Knowles....hehehe....some people who resort to random acts of great stupity... like me anyway. And uh...just an observation... perhaps...just perhaps... if your wondering what it would take to keep what my very visible God wants in my head instead of sharing it...you could try a forum that doesn't start with the heading "Christianity/Bible/Christian Living". Maybe the one that starts with Antagonistic Stalking of Idea's other than my own? I Believe you'll find it in or under the heading, Intelligentsia /Laminated Diploma?
  
  And hey let's get together and discuss rational anytime!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - I see - so you only ever share what god wants in this type of forum. Seeing as you appear to have signed up here only to share your irrational beliefs - I have a hard time accepting that as being the case.
  
  I thought "telling stories without the aid of your prolific ability to embellish," was against what your invisible god wants. Maybe - just maybe - it is another case of do as I say, not as I do?
  
  Which is what this forum thread is actually about. The fact the self-professed Christians love to share what god wants - but rarely follow it themselves.
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  fits3x100posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Man Mark... I sure am trying!!! and uh I did share what I wanted...I think?
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I started watchimg a documentary tonight about the life of jesus and learned a few things about the words of your god. 1st I learned that Mary was only 13 or 14 when she was raped by god. That would be a case of pedeaphile rape in any state in this country. No wonder the catholic priests like em young, their simply carrying on a family tradition. 2nd, Biblical scholars have determined that errors in transcribing the bible from the original greek, jesus wasn't born on dec 25th, nor was he a carpenter. Have they proven anything in the bible to be true?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What!!! cancel Christmas?
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  fits3x100posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Stump....I'm sorry man. No comment. Mark. Specifically which embellishment? It's not to late Man!
  
  Oh dang...ok Stump. History lesson number one. In the Palestine of Marys day, 13 or 14 was the common age of betrothal , and yes I know we are infinitely more moral today then way back then. 2nd lesson. Read the story. Mary acquiesced. 3rd lesson. Priests are highly repressed folks living by un-biblical rules that no man could keep....so I sort of suspect they like em any way they can get em...4th lesson. Please read your Bible and find the 25th of December listed as Jesus' birthday and report that verse back here as soon as you do... 5th lesson. Josephus makes mention of the Galilean Jesus, crucified by Pilot, as having been thought to be a tradesmen, but certainly not of Royal Hebrew Heritage...and he was a Roman...5th Yes. where would you like to start ? It'll take weeks to document... God Bless you both! Sincerely!!!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  While you are at it, recheck the part about Josephus. The original works of the famous historian were corrupted much later on by church officials. They were embarrassed because Josephus failed to mention anything at all about JC!
  
  Also, as a man interested in many aspects of life and science, he failed to mention the sky being dark for hours, the dead rising from their graves and walking the streets, and other so called miracles during the Crucifixion.
  
  One would think he might have mentioned these unusual events. Apparently, you had rather believe the corrupted version of the Josephus works. His wasn't the only writings tampered with by the same "godly" church officials. This is well known.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  fits, I appologize for the tone of my last comment. It had nothing to do with this thread and I should have kept it where it started...with a discussion about the validity of the bible with an old friend who is as hard headed as I am. Unfortunately I don't own a bible, never have, never will. The knowledge I have of it comes from the church I used to attend and a lifetime of living in the bible-belt. I have tried reading it a couple of times and never got anything from it. It amazes me that anyone who has read it would consider it to be the basis for anything. Each person who reads the bible gets something different from each passage they read. How can such an easily misunderstood book be the guide for anyone or anything.
  
  Guide is defined as:
  guide (gd)
  n.
  1.
  a. One who shows the way by leading, directing, or advising.
  b. One who serves as a model for others, as in a course of conduct.
  2. A person employed to conduct others, as through a museum, and give information about points of interest encountered.
  3.
  a. Something, such as a pamphlet, that offers basic information or instruction: a shopper's guide.
  b. A guidebook.
  4.
  a. Something that serves to direct or indicate.
  b. A device, such as a ruler, tab, or bar, that serves as an indicator or acts to regulate a motion or operation.
  5. A soldier stationed at the right or left of a column of marchers to control alignment, show direction, or mark the point of pivot.
  v. guid·ed, guid·ing, guides
  v.tr.
  1. To serve as a guide for; conduct.
  2. To direct the course of; steer: guide a ship through a channel.
  3. To exert control or influence over.
  4. To supervise the training or education of.
  v.intr.
  To serve as a guide.
  
  None of these definitions seem to have anything to do with the bible in any, of the mis-translated versions that so many buy into.
  
  Mark was correct in his observations about the original intent of this post. People who have even less knowledge of the bible than I do insist that I should base my life on the words in this book. All I see christianity to be is...a membership card that allows one to ignore any and all parts of the book they insist the rest of the world follow.
  
  The comment that started this thread says it all. A christian was upset that non-believers are using the bible to point out short comings in the actions of the believers of the book. Ignorant, arrogance in my opinion.
  
  As I mentioned before, too many christians feel that since I don't believe I have no right to use this book for anything. Are they actually in favor of banning this book from non-believers? I appreciate the civility of your response to my display of frustration with a friend, thanks.
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  fits3x100posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Stump,
  You were dead on man. As a christian, I'm still plagued with the tendency to pull the "Oh yeah?...I'm not THAT bad!" Maybe it's a natural outgrowth of self examination?
  Observation: I should quit smoking.
  Response: At least I don't rob banks ...like THEY do!!!
  hehehe...We'll never be perfect. But, if your not free to call me on my Battery acid addiction...I'm doomed! The real point is motive. Are ya calling me on it because ya Love me? Or because it helps you forget your own "stuff"?
  Real self-less-ness is hard to come by...but it's okay to aspire to eh?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi fix3x100, I love the great examples you explained in your post. God still exist even when others dismiss him.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Notice how easy it is to be dishonest with your children when you can't even be honest with yourself?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Ha Randy .. When I was reading the writings of Josephus; what struck me was the conditions that were prevalent in and around Jerusalem at that time.
How they described perfectly those things that Jesus proclaimed to Peter, James and John and Andrew, in Matthew 24.

Total anarchy prevailed. The Pharisees, Sadducee's, and Zealots were all engaged in a war against each other.
There was a drought during the 40s so food supplies were short, and each religious group were either steeling or destroying each others food supplies.
The streets were littered with dead bodies, disease and pestilence ran rampant through the city. People were starving to death.

These conditions also fulfilled the prophesy mentioned as the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

Talk about proof of prophesy having been fulfilled !

This is what caught my eye when reading Josephus.

In answer to your statement about him having NOT mentioned any details concerning the crucifixion? Josephus wasn't born until around 35 AD.

You also ask ..One would think he might have mentioned these unusual events.
I don't think that these were described as universal events.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I know he wasn't born until after the Crucifixion, but he was aware of many past events through the works of other historians and through records of the Roman government scribes. Pliny the Elder also neglects to mention any of the supposed events which are only stated in one book of the NT.
  
  Why didn't all of the NT "authors" describing the Crucifixion mention these miraculous events? Because they never happened!
  
  Where does it state the darkness, earthquakes, walking corpses, etc. were only local events? Was there a line where darkness ended and light began, lasting for hours? This in itself would have been a very noteworthy phenomenon!
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Pcunixposted 13 years ago
One thing about the title of this thread: sure, some may be working "against", but I think most are actually working "for" - trying to get theists to open their eyes to see the REAL truth. No gods, no miracles.
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waynetposted 13 years ago
Nothing. Just give em a good clout with it!
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
It is my understanding that Vespasian commissioned Josephus to write his biography. But on the way to Jerusalem to put down the civil disorder, Vespasian was called to Rome to become the 9th Emperor of Rome.
Josephus continued on with Titus to Jerusalem. Josephus documented these accounts.
Josephus was not a follower of this new religion.
He wrote about the big news and not the old news.

His other books were written to the Roman prospective giving some history of the Hebrew ancestry. He was not pushing a Christian agenda.

As for Pliny the Elder. He was recording possibly the greatest event of the first century.
The eruption of Mt Vesuvius. The total destruction of three Roman cities. Again ... Old news wasn't on the forefront of his mind. His father had also just died from the ash and sulfur fallout.

I'll just say that his accounts of this eruption could be seen as fulfillment of Rev.6:12.
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  fits3x100posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. And by the way, it is the dogmatic organized ,in the can , religiosity, that so damages what I think is the true church. Post millennialism ... the really appalling apocalyptic prophecy in Rev. refer specifically to the siege and destruction of Jerusalem., and not to something way out there(time wise)
  With all the lies destruction and death that has been started by organized Churches (plural) through the centuries, it's no wonder folks use the Bible to refute Christianity. But for me, I've looked hard else wear and this is where I find truth...for me.
  I've worked with hundreds of quality control departments through the years. I've noticed two philosophies when folks look at things to determine if they are good or bad. Those that begin the process with the assumption that it's bad...find a way to prove it. Those that begin with the assumption that it's good...usually find a way to prove it.
  I've traveled from blind acceptance in childhood, to open war like I'm hearing here, to the assumption of Truth...could be wrong. Pretty sure some folks will assert that! Still okay with that.
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Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago
Pliny, like his contemporary Josephus, was interested in all scientific things, as well as, historical! I doubt seriously they would not have recorded events which their parents and others living in the area would have witnessed as miraculous!

I am not saying the NT doesn't have some historical facts related to the area at the time. But so does Gone With The Wind!
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Afits3x100 wrote ...
Agreed. And by the way, it is the dogmatic organized ,in the can , religiosity, that so damages what I think is the true church. Post millennialism ... the really appalling apocalyptic prophecy in Rev. refer specifically to the siege and destruction of Jerusalem., and not to something way out there(time wise)
With all the lies destruction and death that has been started by organized Churches (plural) through the centuries, it's no wonder folks use the Bible to refute Christianity.
- - - - - - -

ME ...
I wholeheartedly believe that the first five seals were opened at the time of the crucifixion.
The first four are what brought everything about that caused the destruction of Jerusalem and their temple in 70 AD.

That being said... GOD destroyed the temple! As it was prophesied many times that he would do; The devil didn't do it as the church teaches.

There are no scripture that describes the temple being resurrected AFTER Cyrus made his decree to rebuild it in 138 BC.

Jesus foretold of its destruction, but there is no mention of it being rebuilt again.
==========================================

fits3x100 ....
But for me, I've looked hard else wear and this is where I find truth...for me.
I've worked with hundreds of quality control departments through the years. I've noticed two philosophies when folks look at things to determine if they are good or bad. Those that begin the process with the assumption that it's bad...find a way to prove it. Those that begin with the assumption that it's good...usually find a way to prove it.
I've traveled from blind acceptance in childhood, to open war like I'm hearing here, to the assumption of Truth...could be wrong. Pretty sure some folks will assert that! Still okay with that.
- - - - -

ME..
I have come to my beliefs such as they are today after a dozen years of analyzing what is actually written in the scriptures. Every Christian holds onto hundreds of preconceived ideas as to what they are reading, that they miss the intended message.

I discovered that I had hundreds of these misconceptions such as the one above, concerning the reconstruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. It just isn't going to happen another time, because every prophecy that states that it will be rebuilt was written long before it WAS rebuilt, beginning in 535 BC.
That prophesy has been fulfilled,
This shakes many misconceptions violently when this concept is followed on through this train of thought.

As I said above, there are hundreds of misconceptions that people attempt to prove by using other misconceptions.
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  fits3x100posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dead on Jerami. It still causes a wrestling match in my thinking to acknowledge that the purpose of Israel( Combined Tribes) has been completed. Also messes with folks who try to scare folks to Jesus... Your gonna catch more flak from friends than adversaries on that one!!!
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seanorjohnposted 13 years ago
don't reply to Mark Knowles's responses becauuse he is just baiting you, hoping for extra traffic.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nice personal attack there. Is that the only reason you are on the forum, to get traffic?
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  seanorjohnposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.That's true.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ain't working out too well for you, is it?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is a true example of how wrong your assertions are, senorjohn! If you truly believe Mark needs traffic from hub members, you are very much in error!
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  seanorjohnposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know he doesn't need hub traffic but I know he wouldn't waste his time unless there was a benefit. He knows everything there is about negative marketing. He knows what he is doing. If you were an atheist you wouldn't go round debating it endlessly.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sure you would if you are a good person! Protecting others from delusion, especially children, is a very worthwhile and admirable trait in anyone! You ought to try it sometime instead of being the sponsor!
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  Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, no: it couldn't possibly be a way to relax.
  
  No, there always has to be a financial motive..
  
  Besides, as Randy said and as I said earlier, some of us are just trying to wake you up from your delusions. Did you ever think that Mark might just be trying to help people?
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seanorjohnposted 13 years ago
Some people, like Mark knowles, are using the religious forums , just to drive up traffic.
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Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago
Using the Bible against Christians for the edification and correction is a good thing,much like a judge uses the Road Code to admonish a drunk driver
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arbposted 13 years ago
As a christian I have no problem with anyone using the Bible to support their particular argument. It is there and inherently invites investigation. The conclusion of individual investigation will produce differences in opinion. Most religions are going to profess evidence in accordance with whatever documents they hold sacred. If those documents or books exist then they stand as an object to be investigated, accepted or dismissed. If unbelievers had a particular book from which they supported their unbelife I would certainly make attempts to argue their position by looking for inconsistancies, contradictions and anything else that might be useful. It is ridiculous to assume that opponents will not make use of the Bible as a means to argue their case. I have encountered many questions over the years which deserved an answer and some which demanded I simply move along. The Bible is not proof for the existance of God and too use it as such is an exercise in futility. It is, at least for me, instruction and revelation in how the God I subscribe to, wants me to live my life. The proof that He exist was well within me before I read the instruction manual.
It has been noted that the worse evidence of christianity are christians themselves and I suspect that this is true of almost any religion and certainly true even in atheist. The ability of any of us to follow its prescription, 24/7 365 days a year over a lifetime will certainly invite some measure of failure. It isn't that christianity has been tried and found wanting, it has been found wanting and left untried. Our failure as christians is not evidence that God does not exist, it is evidence only of our failure. Try adopting a book that requires endless sacrafice and a lifestyle that would put others first moment by moment over your lifetime. I suspect free will, will too often loose such battle.
That we as christians get defensive is indeed a short comming, but, it is a short comming common to every human being who gives refuge too a belife. Failure is not propriotory to christians. Unfortunately, we embrace a book which illuminates our failure. The luxury of an atheist is that there is no book to illuminate their failure. Indeed, they live lives free from examination. An envious and safe position. This is not an attack on your position, simply an observation that I choose a course that promises some measure of failure and you have chosen one which illiminates thats possibility. Doesn't prove me right or wrong, but if my success or failure serves as evidence then I have simply chosen a life which will perpetually provide you the needed ammunition to keep you safe.
Personally, I would prefer scripture not be used by either side to support arguments for or against the existance of God. It is ground not common(not held valid by both sides) and therefore, conclusions are predetermined and we simply engage in circular arguments. Answering questions in regard to its authenticity or its assertions is, I think is fair ground, however to state that one does not believe its authenticity and then ask me to prove something from it, is absurd. It has already been dismissed as invalid. How do I prove validity from invalidity. It is a case which must be argued from a point of origin that both sides hold valid. That I think, would provide some interesting discourse. It has since the beginning of time.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is one of the best answers I have ever received to any question I have asked.
  
  //The conclusion of individual investigation will produce differences in opinion.//
  
  That is as clear as it can be stated and with that thought in mind, I don't understand the mentality of those who read the bible and assume that everything they got out of it should be applied to all peoples. I see so many people who have a problem with the english language, acting as if they have a complete grasp of the mostly forgotten languages this book was written in. They can't seem to grasp the idea that any or all of the numerous translations might not be error free.
  
  //The luxury of an atheist is that there is no book to illuminate their failure. Indeed, they live lives free from examination.//
  
  The only examination that takes place in my life is self examination. I feel this is a superior tactic for living a decent life as I and only I am responsible for my actions. I don't have the luxury of believing it was simply god's will and beyond my control. I see and hear many christians using the term "god's will" as an excuse for their deviant behavior.
  
  //Doesn't prove me right or wrong, but if my success or failure serves as evidence then I have simply chosen a life which will perpetually provide you the needed ammunition to keep you safe.//
  
  Who will keep me safe from the christians who feel god gives them the right to call my house and threaten my life for speaking my opinion in a public newspaper? Who will keep the homosexual community safe from those who use this book to persecute, and often times kill them?
  
  I am aware that these are extreme examples but they do happen on a daily basis, in god's name.
  
  Peace to you and yours this holiday season. I look forward to exploring some more of your thoughts in the near future.
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  arbposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Stump!
  A quick comment. Again, this is neither attack or indiscriminate disagreement, simply a clarification. We all must succumb to self examination, the believer and the non believer alike, but, what does the unbeliever use as the basis to measure the findings of his examination. Obviously, the believer attempts, (note the word attempts) to examine himself against the standards put forth by the God he suscribes too. Before I became a Christian my basis was established from what I, myself, determined was right or wrong. Nothing wrong with that, but, does it allow anyone other than you, yourself, too measure your behavior in relationship to the atheist instruction manual. I remain at a dissadvantage in that, although you have my instruction manual with which to measure my life, I have not yours. That is not through any fault, it simply is.
  Its kinda like watching your neighbor in a house built of glass. Your glass house is painted and you remain hidden to their scrutiny. You have my instruction manual with which to beat me over the head (gently I hope) but your instruction manual is hidden and known only to you. So, when I say that you are safe, I do not make reference that you are safe from everything in the world, only safe from my ability to measure your life against your own instruction manual. Again, not by fault, simply the way it is. It would be easy to presume from my comments that I hold this as a superior method to arbatrarily creating your own instruction manual, but I do not. I do however, prefer it, just as you prefer yours. It isn't a matter of right or wrong, it is a matter of preference rooted in our individual decision to believe or not believe. I assume that yours is the consequence of much investigation and hopefully you assume the same. We will not know for certain till the curtain falls. We remain in a struggle to know now, what we can only know for sure then. I wish you well in the struggle.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Which is why the Bible is for Christians. It's not a Book that non-Christians can properly handle. Though they often try.

If Bible is for Christians only then it is not for the whole humanity.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Salvation is for (or offered to) all humanity, anyone who will accept that free gift.
  Then, when a person is saved, they're a Christian.
  Then, they can interpret the Bible with Spiritual eyes.
  I don't know of any non-believer who can properly interpret the Bible. And many Christians don't interpret it correctly either, or they don't bother to try.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Most atheists in this country started out as christians. That would indicate that this book is also for them. I don't suppose you subscribe to the belief that as soon as a christian becomes an atheist, all knowledge of, and any information about christianity is suddenly of limits, do you?
  
  That is starting to sound like selective censorship to me.
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adagio4639posted 13 years ago
90IntimatEvolution

I'm very impressed with your grasp of Christianity. I'm not sure how many people would agree with your position on a lot of things, but probably more then are given credit. Your understanding of the very nature of Christianity is about as close to the actual teachings of Christ as I've encountered. I'm not a religious person at all, but like most of us that might be considered atheist, or agnostic or deist or whatever, we were in fact brought up in the church and left because of the hyposcrisy we found. For some people, they use their religion to justify their bigotry and hate. We see that in a lot of competeing religions as well. We decide that all Christians are Bible banging ignoramouses, and all Muslims are terrorists and we run with those stereotypes. A lot of animosity is thrown out at Christians in general, but your post's show an understanding that runs much deeper than what we see in the every day portrayal of the conservative Christian. My mothers Christian Church was very open to the gay community and accepted gay marriage. They were very non-judgemental.

In America today we seem to be divided in many ways, but the most obvious way is in those that think and those that don't. You clearly do think about your faith and how you can apply it in constructive ways. You give Christianity a good name, and my hat is off to you. If only there were more people like yourself, we would find a far more civil dialogue in this country.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Brenda is a good communicator. I knew she wasn't agreeing with Cag. He is quite receptive to others belief systems, which shows some improvement over how he was when I first arrived at the Hub. The only thing which I would disagree on is actually more semantical. Leave that as it may be. Brenda's obervations have her on the "Good" path.
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exorterposted 13 years ago
If you want to use the Bible against Christians, go ahead, Satan tries all the time' If you think you are better at it than he is, go ahead, it will not do you any good
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
What's wrong with using the bible against christians?

There is nothing wrong with it; it will just highlight the way Jesus lived his life and the way he held his beliefs truthfully.
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  crusader112posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Parr,
  
  I agree with you BUT you will have to know enough about the Bible to use it like that, and you do not understand the Bible at all so foget it.
  
  crusader 112
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What's wrong with using the Quran against Muslims?
  
  Other than being stoned to death, of course.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
What's wrong with using the bible against Christians?

I have observed that the Christians read and understand Bible incorrectly; they often take the meaning for a verse that is not there at all and the context in the chapter rejects it. They take the meaning they have heard from the priest so often and stick to it; whatsoever the context may say they are least bothered. Instead of changing themselves to what Jesus say; they will change what Jesus says and make it according to what priest or the Church says.

So by highlighting what the Bible says in the context of a verse in a chapter; one does a good service to the Christians and brings them aligned to what Jesus did and believed.
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  crusader112posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Except now you are stating only you can read the Bible Correctly, how can a Muslin tell a Christian that he ( the Muslim) understands the Bible correctly, and only you truly know what Jesus said??????
  
  Sorry I do not belive you that only you knew what Jesus means, did Jesus tell you this?
  
  please unless you were told by Jesus, and Jesus gave you such great power to be the only person in history, to understsnd the bible,1000% wow your word must be unchallenged.
  
  Do not think so Parr, I belive you could never correct the Bible.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I just mentioned as to how the Bible could be understood correctly by us human beings.
  
  I did not claim that I am the only person who understand the Bible correctly.
  
  I repeat my words here:
  
  I have observed that the Christians read and understand Bible incorrectly; they often take the meaning for a verse that is not there at all and the context in the chapter rejects it. They take the meaning they have heard from the priest so often and stick to it; whatsoever the context may say they are least bothered. Instead of changing themselves to what Jesus say; they will change what Jesus says and make it according to what priest or the Church says.
  
  So by highlighting what the Bible says in the context of a verse in a chapter; one does a good service to the Christians and brings them aligned to what Jesus did and believed.
  
  Unquote
  
  There is nothing wrong in trying it; to undestand the Bible from its context in the chapter or the book.
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  crusader112posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Parr why is your understanding of the CHRISTIAN BIBLE so much better that Christians , you are a follower of a Islamic sect, you are Muslin, not even Christian therefore any view you think you might have of the christian Bible is corrupted by your belife in your Muslim sect. So why do you think you know the CHRISTIAN BIBLE better THAN CHRISTIANS.
  
  You are NOT CHRISTIAN and follow the Quran, which you keep telling non Muslims that we cannot understand the Quran, so by your own rules you CANNOT under stand the BIBLE.
  
  You do NOT do a 'GOOD SERVICE' to Christians , as we BELIVE YOU DO NOT KNOW what Jesus belived or said.
  
  I ask you nicely please stop your RUDE UNIFORMED ATTACKS ON JESUS OR THE BIBLE.
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  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  @paar who defines what is correct and what is not..premise of correctness is subjective...
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  kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do all Muslims read and understand the Koran any better then Christians do their bible?
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  crusader112posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do not know mate, but Parr said he can correct the Bible to Christians.
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Toby Hansenposted 13 years ago
What's wrong with it? Well, paper cuts for one.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Reference to the context is essential whatever book one reads. It is therefore necessary that the Christians read the Bible and understand it correctly .They often take the meaning for a verse that is not there at all and the context in the chapter rejects it. They take the meaning they have heard from the priest so often and stick to it; whatsoever the context may say they are least bothered. Instead of changing themselves to what Jesus say; they will change what Jesus says and make it according to what priest or the Church says. It is for this reason that they have 32000+ denominations.
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  libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The same can be said for Muslims and the Qu'ran Paar! Take for example, didn't your religion break off from the original Muslims because they consider your beliefs a cult? Hmmm... maybe it is you who does not understand his own Qu'ran! How can you judge Christians or any other group when you yourself have broken away with such different views... in other words large groups of Muslims believe the Qu'ran has different meanings! Sort of odd how you are targeting others when you should be looking in the mirror!
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  crusader112posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agree Parr fix your 'sects' understanding of the Quran, mainstream Islam states your 'sect' cannot understand the Quran, So fix your understanding of the Quran 1st, as mainstream Islam state you HAVE READ THE QURAN WRONG do you think that might be why your 'sect' is BANNED.
  
  I think that it is inportant that Muslims , understand and read the Quran correctly, inportant that they do not take a cleric or anybody's word of the correctness of the Quran, only you must read the correct sayings of Mohammed. After all the Quran was writen down from the memory of many and Mohammed could not state that what was written down as his word was TRUE because Mohammed could nor read. So I have trouble trying to BELIVE something even Mohammed could not state that is what he said. Therefore you would have to have been there to know for sure what Mohammed said. I belive this as you always try to say the Quran 'corrects' the Bible how can this be as the Quran you Quote is flawed as Mainstrean islam says your 'sect' has it wrong, and I belive mainstrean Islam before I belive your 'sect'
  
  Only when you can read and understand the Bible, will you get the true word of God. Your sect states Jesus was saved from the cross and went to India were Jesua married and had children. You know this is not true, Islam knows this is not true, Christians know this is not true, but your 'SECT' still continues with this INSULTING and FALSE statement.
  
  I am as a Christian INSULTED by your statements that our 'priests' teach us FALSE statements about the Bible, you know you are INSULTING but you do not care. All you can do is continue your INSULTS against CHRISTIANS and JEWS you according to ISLAM your 'SECT' is wrong and is NOT even followers of Islam.
  
  I think you have NO RIGHT to attack Christians and Jews , untill you work out what RELIGION you follow, because Islam will not have you, therefore what RELIGION do you follow.??
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shadokingposted 12 years ago
ISIAIh 41 BRING forth your IDOLS did they PREACH to you see they can’t speak they can’t DO ANYTHING all they do is cause confusion. spalms 115 and spalms 135 thier IDOLS are FALSE cant speak can't hear cant smell and those that make them shall become like them. Jeremiah 10 they nail their IDOL down like a scarecrow it can’t move can'...t speak can’t move must be carried these are nothing but the WORK of CON men.john 10 jesus christ sais his sheep hear his voice and another voice thy will not follow and if another person tries to preach to them they WILL FLEE from him. jeremiah 5 the priests bear rule on their own authority what will you do when your judged my word is not inside them. Now here is the kicker john 5 son of man voice goes back in time mathew 16 jesus christ claims to be the son of man.‎1 cor2 mind of CHRIST preached internally and john 16 sais the spirit of truth comes in the future. Ezekiel 13 lying prophets of ISRAEL my word is not inside them saying god sais god sais god sais wrote hoping mankind would CONFIRM their WORDS. all of this is EASILY verifiable.
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