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Free Will was not given to us

  1. OpinionDuck profile image59
    OpinionDuckposted 6 years ago

    There is much citing the bible for free will OFFERING, but God gave us Free Will to do whatever we want then it should be in Genesis.

    Where do you think that is says God gave us free will?

    1. profile image61
      stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      'Free Will' doesn't exist, doubly so with the Xian deity construct.

      1. OpinionDuck profile image59
        OpinionDuckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I comprehend part of that

        1. profile image61
          stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Xian, shorthand for Christian, was coined by believers based on the Greek character 'rho.'  Now you know.

    2. pennyofheaven profile image81
      pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      When Eve at from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil!

      1. OpinionDuck profile image59
        OpinionDuckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That was not free will
        That was an act of disobedience to a direct order not to do it.
        You don't punish free will, you train it.

        Even if I agree that was a free will act, God Punished them and threw them out of the Garden, but he didn't give us any rules that apply, because there had only been One Rule, and that only applied to ONE tree.

        Cain killed Abel and that wasn't a real big deal apparently.
        God didn't set any new rules for it. It wasn't until Moses that the people were to know about any new rules.

        These new rules were the Ten Commandments, but I don't know if they count because there is no real record of the tablets that contained them. So technically, we are not bound by them.

        As with the Ten Commandment there is no mention of restricting free will or giving free will. Like you can do anything else but don't break these commandments. All of the commandments are broken daily by people of all kinds, and by religions, and governments and it is only the law in the jurisdiction that an illegal act occurs is a violation. It is a violation of man's law and not the Ten Commandments.

        Thanks

        1. pennyofheaven profile image81
          pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Well you did ask? I didn't say you would agree with my answer.

          Remembering that the bible was not written apparently to many eons later. It is possible that....Order, was a perception of the writer. Punishment was too.

          However,in saying that...The punishment as such was inevitable and unchangeable by God. When one knows good as good evil is sure to arise. That is why it seems it was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  Prior to the eating of the fruit. Good was not good, evil wasn't evil. Perception made its so. So when good and evil were known and taught to all they had influence over ie Able and Cain.. It gained momentum over time. Hence why the need for the 10 commandments came into play.

          1. OpinionDuck profile image59
            OpinionDuckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thanks for your reply.

            I still disagree, because Evil already existed because according to the bible, just referencing it, Satan and his angels were the evil, or the opposite of God.

            Without the serpent (evil), the real question is would Eve have broken the rule.

            I also think the tree of knowledge was a mythi, as evidence by the lack of knowledge in the world.

            1. pennyofheaven profile image81
              pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Ok!

              1. OpinionDuck profile image59
                OpinionDuckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Thanks,

            2. profile image61
              stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              'God' created evil.

      2. profile image61
        stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Nope, nothing was 'broken.'  The two mythical figures had no inkling of right or wrong-until after they ate the magic apple.  You might as well fault a infant for not being able to design a nuclear reactor.

        Secondly, their innocent action was scripted by the Xian daemon deity via the Divine Plan and the omni characteristics.  Something is omni [all] or it isn't.  There is no in between.

        1. pennyofheaven profile image81
          pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yep agree. I have pointed to that in this thread too!

          What is the Xian daemon deity?

          1. profile image61
            stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            The god of the Abrahamic superstitions.  In other words-the Christian deity.  BTW daemon is the original spelling for demon.

            1. pennyofheaven profile image81
              pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Oh thanks for that. So what is a demon to you?

        2. brotheryochanan profile image60
          brotheryochananposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          If i tell you not to sit in that chair and you do.. how do you figure that abolishes all wrong doing on your part? Since God told them NOT to eat of the tree, how does eating of the tree abolish them from doing wrong.

          It doesn't take understanding nuclear science to know that after being told not to do something (remember adam and eve both had working knowledge of language) and a person does what they are told NOT to do that they have done wrongly. I would say this is pretty much simple logic.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image61
            Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            They were incapable of understanding the concept of "wrong," because they had not yet eaten of the tree of knowledge.

            Therefore they were not punished for doing "wrong."

            They were punished for doing something they had been told not to do by god. What a pathetic god. He specifically told them not to do something he knew they were incapable of understanding was "wrong," and were going to do it anyway. sad

            Simple logic, cousin.

            1. couturepopcafe profile image60
              couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Mark, this is good insight.  I couldn't find anything about free will, specifically, from any resource.  The closest thing I could find was the 'knowing of the good and evil' after the fall from grace.  This would automatically, it seems, include free will to choose between the two.  Here's something interesting though.  Gen. 4:22 "behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live forever", they were sent from the Garden.  Apparently, the only way to get back to the Garden is to remember that there is a tree of life, a way we can live forever.  But according to the New Testament, the 'tree of life' is Jesus, believing He is the Saviour.  According to the O.T., there was a physical tree from which one could have plucked.  Too bad Eve didn't pick that one.

              1. qwark profile image60
                qwarkposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Couture:
                No, it's wrong that this psychotic "god thing" didn't prepare them with understanding before he/it/she, whatever, punished them so severely!
                To believe such "tripe" is an example of human insanity!
                Qwark

                1. couturepopcafe profile image60
                  couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I was pointing out the obvious.  Do I have to come over there and smack you silly?  I think you and Mark are agreeing with me, right?

              2. Mark Knowles profile image61
                Mark Knowlesposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yes - doesn't make a lot of sense in the cold light of day, does it? wink

                1. profile image61
                  stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  It wouldn't make any sense if one was dead drunk.  smile

          2. profile image61
            stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Once again, the mythical couple had no knowledge of right and wrong-UNTIL-after they ate the magic apple.

            Please acknowledge this point.

            You, as usual, show no signs of logic-simple or otherwise.  That isn't an insult. Effectively, your god did fault the two mental infants 'for not being able to design a nuclear reactor.'  Not only that, but faulted all their descendants!

            Please acknowledge this point.

            It would have been less than child's play for your demon god to have kept the 'magic trees' out of the reach of the mental toddlers.

            Please acknowledge this point.

            1. pennyofheaven profile image81
              pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Actually they defaulted their own descendents by their choices.

            2. fits3x100 profile image59
              fits3x100posted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Once again, the mythical couple had no knowledge of right and wrong-UNTIL-after they ate the magic apple.

              Please acknowledge this point.

              Absolutely acknowledged.
              I told my  10 year old son not to touch the two wires together.
              He had to try it. Action(or decision)- Result.

              You, as usual, show no signs of logic-simple or otherwise.  That isn't an insult. Effectively, your god did fault the two mental infants 'for not being able to design a nuclear reactor.'  Not only that, but faulted all their descendants!

              Please acknowledge this point.

              Sorry I can't.
              First of all, I don't  know you or anyone else here well enough to insult them so cursorily by suggesting that they usually are without logic (suggesting imbecilic)  So no.
              God did not fault the children. They touched the two wires together and got a natural unchangeable result. So no.
              God did not fault there descendants. The actions of the parents skewed the descendants existing opportunities to be sure...(if my Dad robbed banks...I'm sure there would be some downstream consequences)((but  the law would provide those  consequences naturally as an effect of my Dads decisions...not as a response))
              So no.


              It would have been less than child's play for your demon god to have kept the 'magic trees' out of the reach of the mental toddlers.

              Please acknowledge this point.

              Partially, if said God had desired automatonic relationships yes.
              However, being made in their image meant the ability to think, and choose...just like you and me...and then live with their results and either learn from them or not...just like you and me ... Even in this physical realm, every decision that involves action, will ripple eternally. (Unless energy learns how to extinguish itself)

              Love your thinking though, if you'd remove the rude commentary regarding other folks and their ability to think, you'd be worth following!
              God Bless eh?

    3. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Why should it necessarily be in Genesis?
      (And as others pointed out, it IS there anyway).

      It's also in Deuteronomy, and Joshua, Job, Proverbs, Isaiah, etc.

      1. couturepopcafe profile image60
        couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Brenda - please tell us chapter and verse so I can read it.  Thanks.

    4. profile image68
      paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Books of Bible have no divine arrangement; even as to who authored Genesis is not known for sure. I think it is an anonymous book; nobody has claimed having written it within its text or without.

      1. couturepopcafe profile image60
        couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Experts believe it was penned by Moses.

        1. psycheskinner profile image79
          psycheskinnerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Not any experts I have heard of. 
          "There is hardly a biblical scholar in the world actively working on the problem who would claim that the Five Books of Moses were written by Moses." Richard E. Friedman.

          1. fits3x100 profile image59
            fits3x100posted 6 years ago in reply to this

            So who's Richard Friedman? A biblical scholar or historian?

      2. profile image61
        stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It also was edited several times as well as voted on.

        A Superman/Girl[tm] comic book is far superior with regard to; internal consistency, connection to reality, and morality.

      3. libby101a profile image61
        libby101aposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Paar there is no divine order to the Qu'ran either! Who wrote it? It was not God! It was scribes who all wrote it according to memory...and history tells us most of those who memorized it died! And I've read it...many times actually...and I see NO divine order to it.

    5. Dave Mathews profile image59
      Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this



      If it is not given then please take it back. I don't like it nor do I want it.

    6. Dave Mathews profile image59
      Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this




      Where do you think we got free will from?

  2. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 6 years ago

    Free Will was obtain by each individual upon birth. It is ingrained into our consciousness, subconsciousness and conscience.

    Free will only means that your will(will power) is free. The reason "free will" exists is because of consciousness- the awareness of life, free thoughts and free thinking. The ability to think for oneself.

    The problem is that even at birth, awareness isn't valid, because of the undeveloped mind for which it is attached to, does not recognize it or know what it means. Babies simply exist, to be nurtured and taught by parents.

    The first time a child becomes defiant is the begin signs of self awareness and free will. The child may not understand, but will learn.

    1. OpinionDuck profile image59
      OpinionDuckposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      see my comment to Penny

  3. brotheryochanan profile image60
    brotheryochananposted 6 years ago

    The free will is exhibited by the choice adam and eve made to disobey God. That started the ball rolling. Everybody after them had the choice to dis or obey God. In this is free will to choose, it is called the 'sin nature'.

    But
    God draws those unto himself, so there must be a bit of puppetry going on here if the people God chooses to draw unto himself arrive at the proper place and time to be drawn. The bible also states that God is in control of all things. So clearly there is not an overall uncontrolled free will but more of a circuit or a parade to points in general, brought about by god that lead to the only free will choice that makes any difference:
    will you be saved? or will you reject christ and know not God.

    if one chooses to be saved then they are under tutelage and governance of Gods ways and this requires some exertion of the child of God to be lead by God to become a mature christian in God somewhere down the line of time, ahead in the future. Free will is exercised here but reprimanded of God if not aligned to his desires or will for that lifes' purpose. Just like a parent we all have free will but calling mom a b*tch in front of dad is probably not the proper free will choice and i dare say, there is no choice at all in the decision not to call mom a .....

    Clearly we exhibit free will by choosing to do many things in daily life, but overall, God leads us about until we either accept him or deny him and then works according to our decision.

    salvation is the purpose of life and all roads lead to it and then either along it or away from it.
    I can be emailed

    1. couturepopcafe profile image60
      couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      To put it another way, the salvation or mastery of wisdom.  There is knowledge of everything from intuition or remembering.  By self-control, one gains enlightenment, intuitional perception, and knowledge of the indweller, God.  But flesh/sensory organs can be obstacles to realization.

      1. pennyofheaven profile image81
        pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well put! I agree!

        1. fits3x100 profile image59
          fits3x100posted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Articulately stated!!!

  4. qwark profile image60
    qwarkposted 6 years ago

    There is no mention of the words: "Free will"in any religious scripture.
    Qwark

  5. fatfist profile image85
    fatfistposted 6 years ago

    "Free Will was not given to us"


    I should certainly "hope not". Nobody can give you a concept. Not even the Almighty.

    Just imagine what your lovely wife would do to you this Christmas if you told her:

    "Honey, from now on I will be giving you conceptual gifts for Christmas, your birthday, and all our anniversaries. Let me start the process by giving you 'love'. Merry Christmas hun, I love you! Oh....btw....can you please upgrade my Christmas gift this year from a 42" to a 55" LCD screen? Thanks hun, I love you even more!"

    So if your wife decides to go "postal" on you, then what should all the people of this planet decide to do with God, who hands out "free will" like it's candy?

    1. aka-dj profile image78
      aka-djposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      If you want a TV (material thing) give her something material also.
      I'd much rather my wife (still) love me this Christmas than not, than give me all the "stuff" she can buy.

    2. profile image0
      AKA Winstonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Step 1: Dig a hole 3 feet deep
      Step 2: Stand in the hole
      Step 3: Only when 1 & 2 are completed, make a statement.

      Is this way you will have less risk that your ideas will whiz over the heads of the many believers who bow to authority.

      1. aka-dj profile image78
        aka-djposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        so, are you standing in said hole?

  6. aka-dj profile image78
    aka-djposted 6 years ago

    Fee will may be a bit of a misnomer.
    I see it more as the ability to choose.
    God created Angels, who either made a choice (way back when) to serve Him, or had no choice, and were created just for that singular purpose.
    Those who chose to break away from Him, did so. They are the followers of satan.
    Man was created in the innocent state in which they were given the ability (freedom) to choose. Obey the one command, and live, or disobey the one command and die.
    If there was no satan (evil, or an alternative option) man would not have had a choice to make. We would have been in a sense, the same as the angels. God, clearly, has (had) a different purpose for our kind.
    Nothing has changed to this very day. People are still confronted with the choice to either obey/follow God, or disobey/reject God. It is rarely clearer a distinction of two groups than right here in the forums.

    1. profile image61
      stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      No 'choice' involved with the Christian God.  All are mere actors in a pointless play hitting their marks and spouting their lines as scripted when God shat the universe into being.

      1. fits3x100 profile image59
        fits3x100posted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Wow!!! I gotta get me a burnin' bush cause I have to choose my lines every single time I deliver them! And I'm gettin' old and can't rely on blind memory to just spit out a pat answer anymore!!!  hmmm...that was part of the plan too I'm sure. Damn...poor un-responsible...un-needed me...

  7. Ms Dee profile image87
    Ms Deeposted 6 years ago

    Free will is clearly expressed in Deuteronomy when Yahweh tells the children of Israel:

    "Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…." (Deuteronomy 30:11–19)

    Whether the children of Israel are blessed or cursed depends on what they choose to do. God set before them the possibilities of life and death, but they decide which possibilities they shall actualize. [Quote from http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/predestinati … free-will/ ]

    1. profile image61
      stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Nope.  When one has only one 'path' and no option other than to follow the script there's no 'Free Will'.

      1. pennyofheaven profile image81
        pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Still interested in this script of yours?

        1. profile image61
          stoneyyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          -heavy sigh-

          It would be easy for me to conclude you're very thick, but I doubt such is the case.

          I'll play.

          'Divine Plan.'
          Omniscience=all knowing

          1 Thessalonians 5:18 (King James Version)

          18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

          {I'm not holding my breath for a 'reply' from you to have any substance}

          1. pennyofheaven profile image81
            pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Thick is your opinion. Perhaps we just interpret it differently? It is obvious you interpret what you quoted differently.

            "Gods will" does not necessarily imply there is a script. Unless you would like there to be one? Gods will and the will of the ego are two very different things. Discerning which is which is the key to knowing whether or not there is a script. If you have not yet mastered discernment then there may "appear" to be a script because one does not listen to the quiet voice within (the god/holy spirit within).

            Whether or not my reply has substance will depend on your level of understanding. If you choose to give away your self responsibility to a said script that is supposed to exist then so it shall be.

            What the ego wishes to create will then become a reality for you.

            1. Castlepaloma profile image22
              Castlepalomaposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I'M RELIGIOUS and I say NO!!!!

              Hi penny

              agree

              Finished that Mugged by Monkeys hub,

              1. pennyofheaven profile image81
                pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I can't find the hub?

      2. Ms Dee profile image87
        Ms Deeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Ah, but there is not only one 'path', right? The Israelites were given free reign to choose any god they wanted.

        1. profile image0
          AKA Winstonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Here is the free will offered by god.

          If you don't do what I say you are dead meat.  Ya Hear!  DEAD MEAT!

          Gee, decisions, decisions....

          1. Ms Dee profile image87
            Ms Deeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, if we decide to believe what God is saying is true. Some do not and just ignore what he says about being dead meat and chance that not happening, and so go that way. It's a decision of whether to take what God says will happen as being true, or not.

            1. profile image0
              AKA Winstonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              @Ms Dee,

              Even if one were to believe in a god, there is still the problem of which god is the right one to believe, after which there is the problem of determining what that paticular god is saying now or has said in the past, and if it was said in the past how do we know we are getting the accurate representation of what was said?

              After all, the stenographer for Adam and Even couldn't have been around to take notes if someone had indeed intoned, let there be light.  The entire NT is filled with words written after the fact, while nary a single eye-witness to the life and teachings of Jesus penned a single word about his adventure.

              The Son of Sam claimed that his neighbor's dog told him to go out and kill.  How do we know the voices we hear aren't from schizophrenia rather than any god?

              All of religion is opinion.  That's O.K.  But opinion is neither fact nor necessarily a truth.

              1. Ms Dee profile image87
                Ms Deeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I see, so from your view, the 4 gospels in the NT are not written by eyewitnesses, when you say "nary a single eye-witness to the life and teachings of Jesus penned a single word about his adventure." And even if they were true eyewitnesses, what's to say that god is the right god. Yes, that view does indeed have a sad dilemma. It is risky to trust something that can't be proven 100%, isn't it.

                1. profile image0
                  AKA Winstonposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  @ Ms Dee,

                  Don't take my word on it.  Biblical scholars worldwide hold the views that not a single word of the NT was written by anyone who knew or saw Jesus, and that the gospels were in fact not written by those named. 

                  The oldest books in the NT are the letters of Paul, who himself never saw and never knew Jesus.  The earliest gospel is the book of Mark, which came later than any books or letters of Paul, and was not written by a disciple (who were illiterate fishermen who spoke Aramaic while the gospels were written in Greek) but by some unknown author at least 30-40 years after the death of Jesus.  Luke and Matthew came after Mark, as both copied about 70% of Mark verbatim.  John was the last gospel book penned, about 95 C.E.

                  1. Ms Dee profile image87
                    Ms Deeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Thank you, you have the approx. dates of the gospels' written production down, but the Biblical scholars I've studied hold the opposite view as to their source. And I beg to differ; Paul did indeed see Jesus. This is just to say it depends on which scholars we trust for information - that risky trust issue.

  8. SpanStar profile image59
    SpanStarposted 6 years ago

    We have eyes and still we can not see, hears and still we can not hear.

    Free Will From God:

    Genesis 1:26
    Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

    Let's think about it for a moment...to enter into Heaven we must choose-choices are provided when one is free to choose.

  9. manlypoetryman profile image71
    manlypoetrymanposted 6 years ago

    Who in the Duck wants to know?

  10. profile image68
    paarsurreyposted 6 years ago

    Free Will was not given to us


    Free will with responsibility and accountability has been given to us; I think; limited only to this world.

    1. Druid Dude profile image61
      Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      We must be conscious of all ramifications and choose what is most beneficial to all, noy what we desire, but what need to continue becoming civilized.

      1. profile image68
        paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It is OK with me

  11. Mark Ewbie profile image82
    Mark Ewbieposted 6 years ago

    Dunno if this has been mentioned but a great benefit to not believing in God and stuff is that free will just is.  So I am completely free to do what I like, after permission from the wife of course.

  12. profile image62
    wildcat100posted 6 years ago

    (OH)

 
working