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The bribery and lie that caused the Jews' unbelief in Jesus.

  1. profile image0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Matthew 28: 11-15:

    "Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city,  and showed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.

    And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,

    Saying,  'Say ye, His disciples came by night,  and stole him away while we slept.

    And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him,  and secure you.'

    So they took the money, and did as they were taught,  and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day."



    That plot between the religious elders and the Roman soldiers is one reason that many people, especially the Jews of that day (and perhaps many Jews of today as well?) do not believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah, that He was resurrected from the dead.

    Anyone care to discuss or add to the discussion?

    I'll be back later.

    1. Beelzedad profile image60
      Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      My son just loves killing zombies in the new COD Black Ops. smile

    2. Me, Steve Walters profile image78
      Me, Steve Waltersposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Proves that the religious elders cheated...that's about par for the course!

      1. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Indeed.

        But it also proves that Jesus's message was so powerful that Satan used a lot of people to try to dismiss and/or hide the Truth.
        He was betrayed once again by a mixture of people, not just the Jews.   And I think the plot is one reason that the Jews traditionally do not consider the New Testament as valid.  False gossip/manipulation of the facts of the event kept them from hearing the Word and recognizing Jesus as the Christ, their promised Messiah.
        I do know that there are "Messianic Jews" who apparently do believe He's the Messiah....and praise God for that!

        1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
          Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Praise God! big_smile

    3. profile image0
      Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      @ Brenda.  wink  Friendly debate coming on...



      Brenda, I'm Jewish. I also went to a church school and spent 10 years of my life asa 'born again' Christian, plus I know the Torah in Hebrew, and am a student of history. I’ve studied the early history of the Church extensively, have read Josephas, and researched as much documentation as was available to me during that decade.

      So...

      The Dead Sea Scrolls were written over a period of a few hundred years. Part of them were written while Christ was alive. They were written by the Essenes, a Jewish sect that lived outside of Jerusalem. They believed in the teachings of Leviticus - the the full power of the law was love. Jesus taught the teachings of the Essenes.

      What is interesting is that the Essenes of this period documented that they had a counsel of 12 to lead them with a leader. The leader was killed by the Romans (hung on a cross). At no time did this leader ever profess to be the son of god or perform miracles.  However, a Roman Jew (Paul) came to them for three years, and then left and betrayed them by very purposely starting up a new religion, i.e. Christianity.

      These things were translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls in the mid 50s. There was enormous interest and distress as it was realized that these were the historical events from which Christianity was evolved. The Vatican immediately demanded the Dead Sea Scrolls as it said that these scrolls were the possessions of Christianity. The scrolls were, therefore, handed over to the Vatican – and never heard from again.
      In the late mid 80s, two American scholars started taking all the fragments that had been photographed and started translating them. They wrote a book about it which I read in the late 80s. The entire story was there. Then UCLA said that they had the entire bunch of Dead Sea Scrolls photographed, and anybody could have them for translation for $1.00.

      The Vatican tried to say that the Dead Sea Scrolls predated Jesus. Actually, they didn’t. Carbon dating and the historical events that are mentioned confirm that there were some that were written at the time that Jesus was supposed to live. The tremendous similarity between the events described in the Dead Sea Scrolls more or less show that there never was anyone who lived at the time who performed miracles, claimed to be the son of God, or rose from the Dead.

      However, bearing in mind that Paul was a Roman Jew, he would have known the Roman religion of Mithras well. You might like to look at what the followers of Mithras believed.

      http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen048.html

      You will then have discovered the roots of Christianity.  Like many other religions, it has built on the ignorance, myths, corruption, etc of people who had a vested interest in creating a religion.

      1. livelonger profile image88
        livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        This is really interesting. There are many pagan-like aspects to Christianity, including the multiple gods (Jesus, Satan, God) and the idea that mankind is only saved if it makes a human sacrifice. I had not known about the Mithras religion, but it certainly explains the rapid adoption of Christianity in the Roman Empire.

      2. Flightkeeper profile image78
        Flightkeeperposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        The Vatican Conspiracy Theory that you talked about where the vatican suppressed the scrolls was discredited because the scrolls were completely published including translations and photographs about ten to 20 years ago.

        As for the implication that the scrolls are about the beginnings of Christianity, most scholars now say that the documents are really more jewish and that the writing are probably from a jewish sect.

        Then last year, an Israeli scholar claimed that that the Essenes didn't exist at all and that it was a fabrication.  Time magazine wrote about it last year.

        I'm interested to know how the scholars are going to figure this one out.

        1. profile image0
          Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Um... 10 or 20 years ago - makes it 2000 or 1990. This happened in the 80s. There was pressure for the vatican to publish. The vatican probably published because people in the 80s wanted to know why the scrolls which had been handed to them in the 50s hadn't been published 30 years later.

          "As for the implication that the scrolls are about the beginnings of Christianity, most scholars now say that the documents are really more jewish and that the writing are probably from a jewish sect."

          ??????

          Jesus happened to be a Jew, and the scrolls document someone 'like' Jesus who was the head of a counsel of 12 who the Romans killed. That doesn't sound like the story of Jesus to you?

          I also assume you're referring to this article.

          http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ … 21,00.html

          Okay, someone wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls. Aladdin did not magically conjure them up. Someone wrote them. And whoever wrote them tells the story of a Jewish guy who headed their counsel or 12 and was later killed by the Romans. The scrolls also tell the story of Paul, a Roman Jew who came to them for three years.

          Those documents are the most accurate and closest things to the time that Jesus lived. Of course, they weren't written by the church so they didn't make mention of having risen from the dead, claiming to be the son of God, or raising the dead.

          Incidentally, the exact scripture is, "I am the son of God as ye all are sons of God." In other words, I am the child of the Universe just as ye all are children of the Universe."

          smile

          1. Flightkeeper profile image78
            Flightkeeperposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Well that's what I'm saying.  You implicated that the Vatican church was trying to suppress the publication of the dead sea scrolls, and as I pointed out that the vatican couldn't have tried to suppress it if the UCLA had the whole thing photographed and could sell it for a buck.  Does the vatican tend to drag its feet about about things, heck yeah, but whether they are suppressing stuff is really a claim that was made by the authors of the book you read.  It is not a consensus.

            Of course someone wrote the scrolls.  As to whether this group was actually Jesus and his disciples as you implicate, that is not the consensus among the scholars.  I think you should explore more about this issue than just those two scholars wrote the book you read. There were enough differences in stated outlook between that group and Jesus's group that the consensus among scholars new and old are that they are not the same. big_smile

            1. profile image0
              Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Um... Actually, in the 50s and 60s, there was a very different environment to what there is now. It did not take 35 years to translate those scrolls. Absolutely, the vatican was sitting on them. They only released them after there was a public outcry!

              The church was held in a much higher esteem in the 50s and 60s than it is today. If the vatican said something, it would have been adhered to. Out of respect, UCLA wouldn't have released it. it just wasn't the done thing in those days. Today, we live in a very different world.

              Also, it wasn't  'my' implication. It was the implication by the scholars who did the studying in the late 50s, as well as the general public of the time.

              I'm curious as to which scholars you are talking about. Christian scholars? In which case, as far as I'm concerned they do not have one ounce of credibility. They're going to interpret everything according to their belief. If, on the other hand, you're talking about academia, which I am, then please could you give me a link to their pulbications, etc. I would appreciate updating myself on what has evolved since I last studied this.

              1. Flightkeeper profile image78
                Flightkeeperposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Even in the 50s and 60s, there were Catholic Scholars who were saying that the Vatican was taking too long.  It couldn't have been much of a suppression if they were released.  There is enough dissent among catholics even then.  I wasn't alive then but I seem to recall that it was during the 50s and 60s that the vatican had a pope who was relaxing a lot of catholic tradition.

                I apologize, it wasn't your implication, but you really weren't doubtful of the information on that one book you read.  It's easy enough to find people who don't agree with that book.  Just do a google. Type in dead sea scrolls vatican conspiracy.

                As for the carbon dating, there is a long span of time between the earliest scrolls and the latest scroll, so the vatican assertion that most of it predates Jesus' time is true and that is also the consensus backed up by the carbon dating.

                Regardless of the politics, it is exciting to get some flavor of how things are like during that time.

                1. libby101a profile image61
                  libby101aposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I agree Flightkeeper! From what I've read, the dead sea scrolls validated Christianity! The only opposition were a couple of books that sprung up from nonbelievers! Which is nothing out of the ordinary! But mostly there are several dozen articles that prove it's validity and strengthens the Christian faith! I think people who are Jewish or believe in the Jewish religion are going to read the books that claim it disproves Christianity and put faith in it, and those who are Christian will read the articles and books that give credit to Christianity through the Dead Sea Scrolls! Its subjective through the eye of the believer! One should read everything for himself to decide...not read the books and articles of others!

                  1. profile image0
                    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Amen.
                    There are many outside writings, not inspired by the Holy Spirit, that many people fall prey to.
                    Yes the dead sea scrolls validated the Bible.

    4. livelonger profile image88
      livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      The reason Jews do not consider Jesus the messiah is not because Jews have anything against Jesus - he sounded like a nice fellow, as described quite a bit nicer than his followers - but because he simply did not fulfill the requirements of the messiah as told by the Jewish prophets.

      Here are just a few requirements that have plain-as-day not been fulfilled:
      - the Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
      - there will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
      - all of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
      - weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

      I'm not sure how you can look around, see people dying, starving, and being killed in wars, and think we're living in the messianic age, unless you're using a definition different from the Jewish prophets'.

      1. profile image0
        Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        According to Christian doctrine, there are two comings and the Jews misunderstood that. The Jews, according to Christians, misunderstood their own scriptures and didn't realize that the first coming wasn' t going to fulfil those things. However, the second coming would... smile

        1. livelonger profile image88
          livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I agree. I was raised Catholic (I'm a convert to Judaism) so I'm familiar with Christian dogma, although not nearly as much as you are.

          I was just explaining to Brenda, who's probably not familiar with the traditional Jewish take on the messiah, how most Jews see it. It is not born out of any sense of hatred towards Jesus. We don't hate Shabbatai Zvi, Rebbe Schneerson, or others that their followers believed were (or continue to believe are) the messiah, either.

          1. profile image0
            Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            It's also very difficult to explain the concept that there are Budhhist Jews, Atheist Jews, Jews for Jesus, and they still remain Jews. Or that at Temple, the focus is not on the after life but on doing mitsvah and being a light to the gentiles in the sense of being of service in being doctors, teachers, farmers, and creating good things for everybody. smile

            1. livelonger profile image88
              livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Yes, the fact that belief/faith/dogma is not an essential part of Judaism is something Christians and some ex-Christians can not wrap their head around. They tend to not understand the "chosen people" thing, either, or that "the truth" is something that evolves.

              Coming from a Christian background myself, it took some time for me to understand, too.

              1. profile image0
                Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I actually battled with Christian dogma for a long time, and I don't think I ever really believed there was a devil. I made myself extremely unpopular by giving the Hebrew translation of the Isaaic Scriptures. They weren't quite the way the Church taught them.

                There's a lot of misinformation in Christian circles about what being Jewish actually is. They assume we believe in the after life (which some may and others may not), but most don't realize that an after life is not part of the Jewish tradition.

                1. livelonger profile image88
                  livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Most Jews do believe in an afterlife (olam haba) but it's just not described in any detail and there are countless different beliefs about it. But it's true it's never been a major point of discussion. Maybe you're talking about something different.

                  1. profile image0
                    Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    There are many different kinds of Jews, just like all other religions.. Most Jewish people I know either tend to be agnostic or atheist or believe in reincarnation, etc. . I'm somewhere between an agnostic and an atheist. I'm agnostic in the sense that I don't know what the truth is and I'm an atheist in that whatever the truth is, I seriously doubt that there is a 'personal' god, ie. one who actually cares about the daily lives of people.

    5. profile image70
      paarsurreyposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      This is an addition made later.
      Do the Jews believe it "until this day". Please ask the Jews.

      1. Greek One profile image79
        Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        fair enough.... what's their number?

        1. Greek One profile image79
          Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          hold on.. I'm on the phone with them now... they got me on hold

          1. profile image0
            Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I'm just curious; maybe in the meantime you can tell me why the words that are in CAPS in the title lines get switched to small letters?   Just wondering, thought it would give you something to keep you from being bored while you're on hold!  big_smile

            Or maybe I should ask livelonger or Maddie.

            1. Greek One profile image79
              Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              i'm asking them that on the phone.. but they are replying in Hebrew.. does anyone know how to translate?

    6. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Wow, sounds precisely like the global churches of all religions (sensational and intellectual).


      The US & Global Allies are doing just that with the religious groups in Northwest Asia. One of the right wing groups "achievements" they boast.

      Well said Brenda.

  2. Flightkeeper profile image78
    Flightkeeperposted 6 years ago

    Brenda, I don't think it had anything to do with that.  Jesus pretty much upset the apple cart and caused a disturbance in the jewish community.  A messiah to the jews, from my understanding, is not a divine savior but someone mortal who will be a great leader from a military and judicial standpoint.

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I didn't know that.  Is that true?   Guess I need to research the views of the Jewish from that standpoint...

      1. profile image0
        Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Brenda, the way Jews see the Torah and the ways Christians see the Torah are vastly different. One of the things you might not know is that the Torah is mistranslated into the Old Testament. There are things that are not good translations that are in the Old Testament.

  3. Paul Wingert profile image80
    Paul Wingertposted 6 years ago

    Pope John Paul II made a long overdue apology to the Jewish community a while back. Christians blame Jews for killing Christ even though it was Pilate who had the authority to execute anyone. Even if Jesus existed, the whole trial and execution story is so screwewd up to begine with. Roman records show that Pilate was more anti-semetic than Hitler and wouldn't allow any group of Jews make a decision for him. His idea of crowd control was to slaughter everyone which he has a record of doing. He was always being called to Rome to face accusations of cruelty to the Jews before and after the time of Jesus's death. So the idea of Pilate becoming frends with the Jewish leaders or washing his hands as depicted in the New Testament is totally nonsense. Pilate was a Roman Governor and the only person he had to please was the Emperor, no a Jewish crowd. The first actual Holy Bible was commissioned and written in about 300 BC by Emperor Constantine. To the ancient Romans, a Jew ranked below a slave's dog and this continued well into the coming centuries. So it was natural for the Bible stories to blame the Jews for Jesus' death, not the Romans because they are the ones who funded it.

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I don't think Pilate intended to let the Jews "make a decision for him".  I think he intended to trick them into making a decision that could be turned around on them, blaming them.  More manipulation.

      1. profile image0
        Sophia Angeliqueposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Brenda, Pilate couldn't have cared less what the Jews thought. He would no more need to do that than the Queen of England would need to con the local cleaner to tricker her into washing the palace floors. These people had autocratic power. There was no need to consult. 70 years later Jerusalem was completely destroyed. The Romans didn't need to manipulate the Jews or the Jewish leaders...

        These are all urban legends that have sprung up in a time when there wasn't any television to double check these things. Humans are naturally superstitious and tell stories to heighten their credibility and status with each other...

        Think about the Thor and Hercules and Zeus and all the other Gods. Exactly the same thing.

  4. Greek One profile image79
    Greek Oneposted 6 years ago

    I blame the Romans, and more importantly, modern day Italians, for everything.

    That's why I refuse to eat pizza

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      haha Greek One.
      Your humor never seems to fail.  wink

    2. couturepopcafe profile image60
      couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Greek - I got two brothers and an uncle that'll break your kneecaps for you if you don't watch out.  Now go order a pizza.  Sicilian style.

      1. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It's making me hungry for pizza!  Greek One has that way about him, he either makes me hungry or makes me laugh.   Don't encourage him anymore!  hahhaa  wink

  5. Flightkeeper profile image78
    Flightkeeperposted 6 years ago

    Funny, I forgave the modern Italians once they created linguine carbonara.

    1. Greek One profile image79
      Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      i just have a longer memory than you

  6. profile image0
    luabuposted 6 years ago

    Hi Brenda
                        great that you put this up.Late night here and will post on this tomorrow.
    Luabu

  7. profile image0
    SirDentposted 6 years ago

    Just this one post as to who were the ones to kill Jesus and even claimed to want Him dead.

    Mat 27:24  When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
    Mat 27:25  Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


    Then later on they wanted to change their minds about it but it was already written.

    Act 5:27  And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
    Act 5:28  Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.


    This reminds me of spoiled children.  They want something one minute then after they get it they decide they don't want it. 

    One wise man out of the whole group of men there said "Act 5:39  But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

  8. profile image0
    luabuposted 6 years ago

    hi Brenda
                good discussion/great contributions from well informed hubbers

    you had marvellous breaking news for me yesterday/all will be revealed type stuff/and then i read your post

    .... and showed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.......

    that would get any tabloid in the western world sued for innuendo and implication

    what were the things that were done

    enjoyed the discussion regarding the scrolls
    my position on pizza remains unaltered /glorified bread if you ask me
    answer my question St Brenda of the Irish name

    what were the things that were done?

    1. profile image0
      Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      They would've told the chief priests about seeing the angel of the Lord who rolled away the stone from the door of the sepulchur and declared Jesus's resurrection,  and...possibly, they may have even seen Jesus Himself as He appeared to the disciples right after that.
      Is that what you were asking?


      Hey, yeah, pizza is leavened bread.  Good to the stomach but no use spiritually! haha

      Ohh,  "St. Brenda"?    haha many including myself will argue about that St. part.     Is Brenda an Irish name?  Cool.  I really have no knowledge of my specific physical heritage.

      1. profile image0
        luabuposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        brenda
                        tell me i'm not reading this correctly


        the breaking news is an angel

        that's the best ever i heard/you're a gas woman /an angel like wings feathers the whole thing/good one
        luabu /enjoyed this

        1. profile image0
          Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Well, I'm not really a gas, though I do HAVE gas sometimes!  LOL

          The breaking news is that Jesus Christ ROSE FROM THE DEAD after He died for the sins of mankind, including yours and mine!   Just as He promised He would.

          Ever since then, all mankind has the opportunity to repent and get forgiveness of their sins, and ultimately reside in Heaven with Him.

          That "breaking news" is STILL the most important headline in history!

          And the most attacked, of course.

          Glad you enjoyed it.  Wish you would actually see the awesomeness of it.

          1. profile image0
            luabuposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            They would've told the chief priests about seeing the angel of the Lord who rolled away the stone from the door of the sepulchur

            hi Brenda /we will not fall out over this but an angel rolling a stone isn't going to sell anywhere

            maybe the stone moved
            maybe jesus pushed it
            maybe his helpers opened it
            maybe the soldiers messed with the tomb
            maybe we just don't know

            but it wasn't an angel/thats for sure
            an angel has never been seen anywhere /any place /any time/
            maybe a timetraveller
            maybe an alien
            but never an angel i think

            i respect your belief in this as i see no harm in santy or anything else like fantasy or harry potter or whatever /just don't go trying to sell these apples as facts to any sane person or you will be regarded as odd
            luabu

            an angel has never been seen anywhere /any place /any time/
            and roman solldiers are not your ideal candidates to be hallucinating
            it just doesn't stack up Brenda
            you stick to your guns here and more power to you for it
            in my family i am called thomas the unbeliever/that about sums me up

            1. livelonger profile image88
              livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Wrong answer.

              You either agree with Brenda that everyone else's beliefs are wrong and hers are right, or the discussion stops.

              The only valid proof is the Christian Bible; all other accounts at the time are invalid and forgeries created by Satan. Why? Because she said so.

              The only proper answer variants differ only in extent: "I agree with you", "I completely agree with you" and "I absolutely, positively agree with you" are 3 examples of acceptable answers.

              1. profile image0
                luabuposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                good point livelonger
                    my attempt at politeness to Brenda has me seemingly sitting on the fence
                ---in my opinion an angel of the lord  rolling back a rock is complete bull.

                1. profile image0
                  Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, that wasn't very polite.  Neither was your mockery the first time! 
                  But hey whatever.   You can choose to believe or not, as you wish.  You were the one who expressed interest in what the Bible says, and I then answered that suggestion.
                  If you refuse to see the awesomeness of what Jesus did for you, then it's you who's missing the boat.

                  1. livelonger profile image88
                    livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    If your intent is to be instructional, then maybe you should write Hubs on this sort of thing instead.

                    If you're interested in participatory discussion, then you have to be willing to deal with people who disagree with your premise. As strange as it sounds, most Jews will not agree with you that they were bribed and lied to about Jesus.

  9. frogdropping profile image85
    frogdroppingposted 6 years ago

    Martyr and self-sacrifice. What is the difference? Because as livelonger pointed out - they're one and the same. 

    Jesus chose to die. He sacrificed himself. A martyr is an individual that is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for a cause. And so the difference is?

    What's to distinguish? It's like trying to make a case for the difference between the word car and automobile. Both mean the same.

  10. profile image0
    Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago

    Uh...I wasn't figuring they'd all agree.  I was pointing out the Biblical truth to them!  Something that will have eternal consequences.   And, yes, hoping for some participatory discussion, as I said in my first post.   It would be interesting to see feedback from a traditional Jew on this very important issue.  It's possible many have never even read those passages in the New Testament.

    And I deal with it fine!  Just because I like discussion on something doesn't mean I'm looking for someone to change my mind.

    1. livelonger profile image88
      livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      What do you consider a traditional Jew?

      I'm not trying to change your mind. You're entitled to believe whatever you want. But I can tell you why I have absolutely no reason to believe anything that Christian dogma claims is true.

      1. profile image0
        Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Those who believe in the Old Testament and probably not the New;  who are "old-fashioned" Jews, not the modern-day ones who've supposedly converted to Judaism on a whim.

        1. livelonger profile image88
          livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks for the (attempted) insult.

          Jews consider me a Jew. Jews consider Sophia a Jew. What an evangelical Christian considers a Jew is pretty much irrelevant.

          Jews don't believe in the Torah/Tanakh, they follow it, and the Old Testament is not the same as the Tanakh. The fact that you think belief has anything to do with it suggests you know far less about Judaism than you would claim.

          1. profile image0
            Brenda Durhamposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I wasn't referring to Sophia at all.
            Nor even you as far as I know.
            Why?  Did you convert to Judaism without studying the Torah? 
            I don't claim to know much about Judaism except what the Bible describes, and that's the origin of Judaism's writings.   Ergo my questions and hope for discussion, plus as I said the New Testament's direct reference to the relation between Judaism and belief or non-belief in Christ.

            1. livelonger profile image88
              livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Judaism does not address Jesus. The Tanakh was authored well before Jesus was born. Subsequent writings, like the Talmud, also do not mention Jesus/Yashua.

              The 2nd section of the Tanakh (Prophets) clearly describe the conditions to be the case for the messiah to appear. Almost none of these have been fulfilled today, much less during the time of Jesus. This is why Jesus could not have been the messiah by Jewish definition.

              If you don't consider me a reliable Jewish source, then you can Google it and find many authoritative sources that address this. The only Jews that consider Jesus the messiah are "Messianic Jews" who are Christians (pretty much by definition).

              1. Greek One profile image79
                Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                It seems to make sense that any Jewish person who believed Jesus was the Messiah would eventually be called a 'Christian' or some other similar term as a distinguishing point between him/herself and other Jewish people.  St Peter was Jewish... and I am sure he would define himself as such even tough he was a follower of Jesus and as such a 'Christian' in our parlance.

                1. livelonger profile image88
                  livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, that's true. There are other Jews who consider themselves Jewish who thought other people were the messiah throughout history, too. But those who thought Jesus was were, by definition, Christians.

                  Lulz on your earlier posts, BTW. tongue

                  1. Greek One profile image79
                    Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Why is it that I have 'the Jews' on the phone as requested by my good friend Paarsurrey, but I have been kept waiting for 4 hours!?!?

                    Is it because I an a Gentile?

              2. Druid Dude profile image60
                Druid Dudeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Ho hum. The Tribe of Judah rejected the Messiah because that was what had been foretold. This is also how the Messiah knew that his time would end upon the cross. His act ensures that the house of Judah would, in the final times, recognize him. At that time and only then, will the prophecies be fulfilled which leads to their salvation. His work was not completed at Golgotha. It is a W.I.P. and always has been.

                1. livelonger profile image88
                  livelongerposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, so Christian doctrine says.

 
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