Unfortunately, there are those who take these people seriously, and they are right here on these forums, passively and wholeheartedly agreeing.
I don't agree with anyone who has a belief in a fictional god. So, I guess I would have to say no.
I know it's okay. I didn't need you or your post to let me know that it was okay.
It's okay that you didn't need his affirmation.
cag I am sorry I offended you by saying it is OK instead of differing with you, I will try not to do that again
You could have left it alone, yet you opened your mouth. Oddly enough, your posting is almost the same type mimicked by trolls?
As for offending me..you couldn't on your best day.
I didn't God' s newletter saying that he hated gays. People hate gays, not god.
God also hates bacon cheeseburgers, shellfish, and polyester/cotton blends, but I haven't seen that stopping any Christians.
Doesn't he also hate women wearing men's clothes? They used that against Joan of Arc.
Well so far as I can tell, only those things which coincide with a believer's personal moral sense/bias/prejudice are God's Will...the other stuff is apparently *cultural context* or a mis-translation.
Yes, that's often true.
That doesn't mean all religion is meaningless garbage (not suggesting you necessarily believe that).
No, but it does suggest two things to me Livelonger. One, that believers can use their religious texts to justify and make absolute those moral directives that fit a particular agenda - even while conveniently discarding other parts of the same text.
And secondly, that instead of confronting those moral precepts in the holy books which are flawed (unsavoury, brutal, absurd or contradictory) and thus may throw the Divinity/goodness of their God into question, they rationalize and circumvent the issue with all sorts of elaborate intellectual contortions and excuses.
Now I don't care too much about the second...that's their business, but the first is downright dangerous, as we can see with the likes of GHF crowd.
Yes, that's true. I suppose tolerant religious people do that, too, except in a different direction...which, of course, suggests that a religion is not its scripture but the agreement among adherents to adhere to a certain interpretation of them. That's probably why there are so, so many of them.
Yes, some do. Some believe that scripture is divinely given. Others believe it was recorded by man, and thus full of the errors that primitive man was prone to make.
I don't see how it's any more dangerous than people doing/saying bad things with any other form of justification that makes sense to them.
Well you're right that religion doesn't have a monopoly on pushing agendas, which are justified in all sorts of ways, but I think there is still a distinction to be made here.
I'd argue that it's the moral certainty that makes religion so prone to being a loaded gun. Secular moralities are supposed to provide some sort of a rational justification and if they're faulty then hopefully they be shown to be faulty through reason. By contrast, a religious morality requires no justification other than *God said it*. How can you argue with that kind of certainty? How can you reason with it...?
The God element can really muddy the water when it comes to working out what is moral and what is not.
Well, only a few "fundamentalist" interpretations of religions argue for timeless moral certainties. And even they bend the rules when it's convenient to them. I chuckle every time I see a "fundamentalist" evangelical (Protestant) religion talk about their steadfast adherence to what their messiah said...and then promptly ignore or explain away his prohibition against divorce. They're only a fundamentalist in their own minds.
In reality, there are probably about 11 fundamentalist Christians on the planet right now, and you never hear of them.
I've seen nationalism, racism, and other ideologies produce the same sort of troubling moral certainties, and not all nationalists and racists were brought up under the indoctrinating influence of fundamentalist religion.
By the same token, I've seen more moderate religions fulfill a completely positive influence in people's lives. But they were probably inclined to be good people anyway.
Not that I take them seriously, but I certainly agree that christian/jewish god hates fags. Sodom is enough of a proof.
That might be jumping to conclusions.
Unless raping any unsuspecting strangers that may come into town is being gay? There is no direct reason given for destroying Sodom and Gomorrah other than that evil had run rampant.
That is; As best as I can remember. ???
http://www.gotquestions.org/Sodom-and-Gomorrah.html - that comes third on the google search for me, after wiki and biblical archeological site. I am too lazy to dig for the actual bible text though, may be somebody will post it. Just as I remember genuine believer Lot was offering his daughters for rape instead, but the guys did not want females. I take it it would have been OK with your god if they raped girls instead, and city would have been saved.
That's a common Christian perspective.
The common Jewish perspective is that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was their propensity for violence, lack of hospitality towards visitors, and cruelty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_ … wish_views
Why Lot offered up his daughters to be raped instead of the (male) angels is anyone's guess, but had the Sodomites taken Lot up on his offer, it wouldn't have made the city's inhabitants' crimes any less forgivable.
(Note I'm not arguing for a literal reading of this story as historical fact, but the differing interpretations say something.)
You can invent as many interpretations as you like, but for me the text clearly reads as they have been punished for homosexuality, among other things. And I am not even a neutral person, I used to be a sympathetic one for a mere fact that christianity back in the USSR was a taboo, so the premise was it should have been something good. Oh well, illusions, illusions...
Yes, and your insistence on an orthodox (no pun intended) reading of it that way is, as I've said, common among Christians, and ex-Christians, I suppose. I was raised Christian so I "get" that.
LOL, I am not insisting on it, I am just saying how I read it myself. Surely everyone has their own version. Though the difference between me and those "god hates fags" guys is that I read it and said - BS, and they read it and said - The Truth.
"BS" is a completely understandable reading of the story!
The Bible is quite clear on what God thinks about gays. It is BS and frankly I think there's something slippery and a bit dishonest about that third group who says "no it didn't really say that" . Or *Jesus says nothing therefore God changed His mind*. They're kidding themselves.
There seems to be three options here:
a)The Biblical God got it wrong
b)The Biblical God got it right
C)The Biblical God is not real
Since it's not possible for an all-knowing God to get it wrong and no rational moral argument can be made against homosexuality...any sensible, moral person would have to go with option c.
D) those writing and translating and retranslating the Bible got it wrong, because they are humans and humans are prone to making mistakes and injecting their own biases
The reason that some believe (D) is that there have some very easily demonstrable changes in meaning between the original Hebrew and the English KJV that most English-speaking Christians are familiar with.
If option D is correct then how are we know that any part of the Bible is not human error/bias?
This is exactly the kind of slipperiness I'm talking about.
We don't know that. It is entirely possible that it's a manmade creation.
It's hard to settle in on an absolute about things we (at least currently) can't understand.
We don't. And it is.
BTW I was reading Orthodox bible in Russian, and it says pretty much the same in this regard, so these guys certainly read it right. This also means that this BS has been written at least before the split between Orthodox and Roman Catholic. Don't know any Hebrew, so have no idea if Torah is using the same language.
I agree with you Jane Bovary.
I hate the use of the word Fag. I gets me sick. I do believe in God though. The God I believe in has greater things to deal with then someone's sexuality preference.
I do not follow the Bible because God didn't write it. Men did. They wrote what they thought would scare the living shit out of everybody to keep them in control. At least thats what I think.
There is just so much that doesn't make sense. Did I just make any sense? LOL.
"You can invent as many interpretations as you like, but for me the text clearly reads as they have been punished for homosexuality, among other things."
Could those "OTHER THINGS" be little things like a little rape here, a simple murder there; or a minor case of burning and looting?
Sodom and Gemmorah were built on unstable ground or had severe weather distubances that caused fear and anger and mayhem among the people living there. There were good people and bad people in those towns the same as every other place on this earth.
Sodom and Gemmorah were destroyed by a natural event that killed everybody in that area. Who you were having sex with at the time had nothing to do with it.
If the story as written in scriptures are understood to mean no more or no less that what is written, I agree with your statement entirely, If I can understand it to mean no more or less than what you wrote.
Too many people understand scriptures to be saying much more that they actually say.
I understand there to be two kinds of "sin"
One kind against the Holy Ghost and another that is a "sin" against ourselves.
Anything that we do that is detrimental to ourselves is sin against our physical being. And everyone are doing something.
But lets not forget... that those things that I do, are not as bad as what everyone else is doing. LOL
The story of sodom and Gemorrah was one a PBS station documentary. They tell you what really happen. It was explained and proven to be true. What's in the Bible is accurate to a point; then it gets dressed up a bit by the people who wrote the Bible and added their own little agendas into the story.
I'm sure lots of people do but not to worry, they will all be dealt with on judgment day.
No, I do not agree with that group.
Nor do I like the term 'fag' used in this manner.
And I wish people would stop posting negativity in the forums which only creates division and hatefulness.
God doesn't hate anyone.
Although, people like this group definitely try His patience.
This is a very sad group of people indeed and I feel sorry for them. I can't imagine what it must be like to be so filled with hatred. If there is a devil, they are certainly out and about doing his work.
'God hates fags', is a complete lie, If God made us all, then why would he hate his own creations. Gay people are gay from birth, it's not a choice. If a Gay person decides to be 'straight' they are lying to everybody and worst of all themselves.
Anybody who hates Gay people are hating Gods creations, therefore defying God. Anybody who supports 'God hates fags' supports HATE and worst of all, the devil.
being gay is a choice.
are you trying to justify youself
Was being straight a "choice" for you? If it was, you might want to consider that maybe you're bisexual. If not, why on earth do you believe that being gay would be any different?
it is everyone's choice what and who they are,
that is called free will,
if anyone has a problem with that, they may feel a guilty about something
Sexual attraction is biological, dude. You can't choose who you're attracted to, you just are. There is no free will about it.
You can choose whether or not you act on sexual attraction, but I personally don't find it very consistent with the notion of a loving God that He would make ~10% of the population fall in love with people of the same sex and then tell them that they can never, ever act on that love.
IMHO, it's pretty telling that Jews overwhelmingly support equal rights for gays and lesbians. The Old Testament/Torah is much harsher on homosexuality than the New (Jesus doesn't even mention it, and the references by Paul and Timothy are so vague that many people believe they refer to male prostitutes and pimps rather than homosexuals per se), so if the Jews are marrying same sex couples and ordaining gay rabbis, you'd think Christians would be miles ahead. Instead too many of us are all tangled up in medieval standards of sexual morality that regarded all sex as a moral degradation, and sex between married couples the only kind that didn't put your soul in danger (and even then, only if it was undertaken strictly for purposes of procreation). Many of these ideas were based on the teachings of Augustine, not the disciples, and certainly not Jesus!
I agree, Kerry. That's like saying God hates someone for being born with blue eyes or with Down syndrome.
that is garbage, God does not hate anyone
he hates sin
gay activity, bank robbing, getting drunk, all sin
people murder to get their jollies at times, it is still sin
if you choose to act on any sinful act, it is a choice
no one has to act on their sinful lusts
it all boils down to what someone wants
no one has to be gay
it is in the mind
anyone can change their mind
Go0d gives everyone the power to control themselves
Heterosexuals engaging in homosexual sex is a choice. And that's what's prohibited in the Bible. If you believe Biblical commandments are true, then you'll believe that God hates heterosexuals engaging in homosexual sex.
The Bible does not say anything about gay people.
being gay is a choice.....
some one may take a look at porn to see just what is there, and choose to keep looking
it is a choice
Scientists and psychologists will disagree with you.
But your opinion can trump their studies. In your mind.
what I believe does not really mater, God will decide on that
You have it the wrong way round, what you believe does matter, its what your god will decide that doesn't matter.
If you're absolutely certain about God's feelings on things, why even participate in a discussion? As you said, your feelings in that case are irrelevant, and God will be the final judge.
Those of us who have some doubt will continue to discuss in your absence.
Hello livelonger; ... This statement implies that you are not absolutely certain; which is why you are in discussion of these subjects ?????
Yes, absolutely. I have my beliefs, but they are not certain, and I can respect other beliefs.
That is good. Can anyone be absolutely certain of anything other than how they feel or that we believe the way that we do?
And we can't be absolutely sure that we won't change our minds about that.
I try to not look at what we do here in forums as DEBATE, but discussion. Or exchange of Ideas and/or beliefs.
In debate we have winners and losers.
I haven't heard of anyone keeping score so this can't really be considered as DEBATE,
I sometimes don't think that it can be considered as discusion either.
I don't know what it is. I guess it is just communication.?
And we can build upon that if we will.
you are making yourself known here so your opinion does matter, whether anyone agrees or not is the difference. I do have a few questions I would like your opinion on...
exorter, do you believe that heterosexuals that have anal sex will go to hell too? or even those people that want to have sex because it feels good an are not doing it to procreate will meet the same doom as well? it is just so confusing to me!
Except believers and their beliefs about homosexuality.
Everyone has a choice and a lot of people could choose to be compasionate, caring, human beings but choose to be bigoted, christians instead. It amazes me how someone who has no clue about homosexuality can believe they know more about homosexuality than a homosexual does. Just seems a little arogant to me. Not to mention an entirely out of whack opinion of your intelligence.
What leg to stand on do you, as a straight, non-scientific person have, that contridicts and disproves, the studies that have been completed and the testimony of every homosexual on the planet, that states homosexuality is not a choice? Please remove for the reconverted, deprogrammed, evangelical, we can pray you straight nut jobs, from the equation before answering.
they even look like hate. you know how someone looks when they're filled with love? there is a lightness and glow? I don't feel sorry for the adults,it is their choice what they believe, but I do feel very sorry for the children.
I think LGBT people should join the God Hates Fags group. I think infiltration is a really good way to handle it. Subversion of this kind is just good karma.
Oh yea! I like that idea! It's just that it won't work. You can't pretend to be sick and evil enough to disrupt a Soldiers funeral with hateful signs. Jesus spoke of false prophets. I didn't think they would be so obvious about it. There is no way they could influence any significant part of society. Leave them alone to swirl around in that ring of hell they're in.
Kind of hard to sneak in here, most of the church members are named Phelps, or related by marriage.
I am not sure what everyone's definition of a faggot is.??
To me the word sounds to be referring to the male gender?
It also brings to my mind, promiscuity.
For instance that word doesn't come to mind when I see a Gay couple, who are living in a committed relationship.
But I'm no expert in the matter !
It isn't for me to judge them, Just know that that isn't my style.
If the definition above is correct.
I would think that God would look upon a fag in pretty much the same fashion as he would a Whore monger.
Whore monger ? I'd hate to guess how many men were at one time or another were guilty of that to some degree.
Me for one. (once upon a time ?)
So I don't get to throw any STONES.
I think this group is crazy! Every religion has a group of extremist and this is just another example of that. However, God does disapprove of their lifestyle. But God disapproves of a lot of stuff that str8 and gay people do, so I am not sure why this group is just picking on gays. If they are against ALL sin then there are a lot of other things they should be protesting against as well.
I think they are secretly gay but don't want to admit it. How else are they going to get gay people's attention?
You've got a point, the more anti-gay a preacher is, the more likely they are to get busted with a rent a boy in a hotel. On a side note here, why is it that when an older man has sex with an underage girl it's statetory rape and when it's a preacher having sex with under age boys, it ain't?
Looking at this god hates fags group, just makes me think what strange extremes people will goto to get on TV these days, poor things have they never heard of talent agencies. bless.
You know to be honest, as a gay man I dont care what people think of me, I have had prejudices all of my life and i am pretty sure many other LGBT people and heterosexual people will agree someone making a group like that has got some serious problems.
Im sure Freud could pronounce them!!
I have never heard a Christian say that God hates Gay people, the only times I heard any one say that God hates Gays is when a non-Christian says that Christians believe that God hates Gays.
Just may be that the person saying that Christians are saying God hates gays is some one trying to butter a gay person up, must be some motive for non-Christian stating something like that.
we are all sinners, a true Christian is going to be asking for forgiveness a lot and trying to live according to the Bible
Man I have heard and seen it. So destructive. There's a great book out there........several really. "what's so amazing about grace?" (Phillip Yancy) and "How to follow Jesus without embarrassing God" Author escapes me.
Obviously you have never heard of the Westboro church group.
obviously they do no know God.
if someone does not know God then they are not Christian.
If someone thinks God hates someone then they do not know God
You say you don't know any Christians who hate gays. Somebody points out some Christians who do. You say they can't be real Christians.
Awfully convenient for you.
I happen to agree that Westboro Baptist is the antithesis of everything Christ stood for. But they consider themselves Christian, and base their beliefs on their understanding of the Bible and Jesus's teachings, so who exactly are we to declare that they're not real Christians?
God is Love, God loves everyone, if they say he does not, then they do not want to understand all of the word, they are picking out the parts of the word they want to
God requires us to love everyone because He does
Christian means Christ like
to are to strive to be like Christ, If someone does not then it does not matter what they call themselves
there are people that claim to be Christians, but do not know how
Satan has an understanding of the Bible, that sure does not make him a christian
You can find them on every street corner when the gay community has a celebration. You can find them in my local paper every time their is a story about gays in the paper. You can even find preachers here in the bible belt that take out ads in the paper stating that god hates homosexuals. Of course the standard response to this is that none of them are "True Christians"
I see a lot of chatter runnimg rampant here. If someone calls themself a Christian but does things contrary to what Christ wants, they are still considered a fullfledged Christian by atheists.
How many atheists here are like Pol Pot or Josef Stalin who murdered millions for no reason other than they were able to do it? Are you also guilty of their actions?
"If someone calls themself a Christian but does things contrary to what Christ wants, they are still considered a fullfledged Christian by atheists."
The same is true of Muslims who do things contrary to what Mohammed wants: they are still considered full-fledged Muslims by many Christians.
As for the whole "Atheists: Pol Pot is one of you, ha ha ha" argument, you need to remember that Atheists don't all agree on a particular code of behavior, either in particulars or in the basics, as we theists do.
That makes no difference. They get into the same boat, it makes them all guilty, according to their own logical posts here.
This church's actions have been condemned by Christians on this site for months and months, yet it keeps coming up and the same old tired posts are posted.
"That makes no difference. They get into the same boat, it makes them all guilty, according to their own logical posts here."
Which boat would that be, exactly?
Seriously, your argument is pretty much the same as "Pol Pot didn't believe in Santa Claus, therefore, he's just like you, since you don't believe in Santa Claus either."
You pretty much have it figured out. Pol Pot believed in muder so all atheists must also believe in it.
Came back to edit. Pol Pot believed in murder, so according to the logic used here by athesits to condemn all Christians, all atheists believe in murder also.
"Pol Pot believed in murder, so according to the logic used here by athesits to condemn all Christians, all atheists believe in murder also."
A flawed syllogism.
Men are mortal. Socrates is mortal. Therefore, Socrates is a man.
False. I just buried my pet goldfish, Socrates, in the backyard. He was mortal, and now he's dead.
A duck is a bird. A duck can swim. Otters can swim. Therefore, otters are birds.
Pol Pot was a murderer. Pol Pot was an atheist. Joe is an atheist. Therefore, Joe is a murderer (or is Pol Pot, both conclusions are equally invalid). See the flaw?
Christians profess to be followers of Jesus Christ. The Westboro Baptist Church profess to be followers of Jesus Christ. Therefore, the Westboro Baptist Church are Christians? That there's a sound syllogism.
Now, we can argue about what it really means to be a Christian, and whether the WBC's actions are in accordance with Christ's teachings, but you can't deny that WBC profess to be followers of Jesus Christ, and therefore, they fall under the umbrella of "Christian."
At the same time, though,
WBC are Christians. WBC are a pack of jerks. Jeff Berndt is a Christian. Therefore, Jeff Berndt is a jerk? Nope. That's just as bad logic as the others. But it's the same bad logic used (especially by conservative Christians!) to lump all Muslims into the same bucket as AlQuaida: they're all Muslims, so they're all Terrorists. Foolish.
You and I have one thing in common with WBC: we all profess to follow Jesus Christ. I would hope that that's the only thing we have in common with that pack of jerks, but we do have that in common.
What I find most entertaining is the amount of times self-professed Christians proclaim themselves right based on numbers. "There are x billion Christians therefore we must be right."
They then immediately disown most of them as not being "real Christians."
Far as I can tell, there are only 7 real Christians, and 6 of them are dead - so it is the smallest religion in history.
20 billion flies eat garbage. Must be good, right? Them saying it just shows how little they know about He who they claim to be following. They aren't even on the same path.
"What I find most entertaining is the amount of times self-professed Christians proclaim themselves right based on numbers."
That argument is especially amusing since Christians only make up about 33% of the world's population.
Dear Jeff Berndt
Merry Christmas ...
Please allow me to correct, what you said about Muslims doing what Muhammad wants them to do ...
We do not do, what he wants ... We do, what he did ... his Following of The Lord's Ordained.
Jeff most of them still call themselves christians. At what point to we stop believing that a christian, who states they are a christian, is a true christian? You people refuse to wear badges to identify yourself and then blame us for believing what you tell us. Why do you do that?
Out of curiosity, what would you call someone who calls himself a Christian and genuinely believes himself to be a Christian who is doing God's work, but commits an action or holds a belief that you consider unchristian?
I mean, where do you draw the line here? Christians believe humans are sinners by definition - does one sinful act or unchristian belief really disqualify you from being Christian in your eyes? And what kind of doctrinal shibboleths do you require? I know many fundamentalists do not consider Catholics to be "true" Christians because of their veneration of the Pope, the saints, the Virgin Mary, etc. in addition to the Holy Trinity itself, but by the same token, many Catholics don't consider Protestants to be "true" Christians.
You and I can say the Westboro folks are bad Christians whose actions and beliefs run contrary to everything we believe Christianity stands for, but is it really our right to declare that they are not Christian at all? Especially since they would claim you and I are the ones who aren't Christian. It's he said, she said here. Wars have broken out over less significant differences in theology.
Jesus draws the lines. Those who continue in sin knwoingly, are no longer His amd are as chaff blown in the wind.
All people are sinners. To sin once and repent is Ok though there might still be judgment coming for that sin. King David slept with another man's wife and had the man killed. Even though he did repent eventually, judgment was still upon his whole house.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. One of the original ten commandments.
You know themn by their fruit. No message of salvation ever seen coming from them. Only messages of hate. John 3:16 For God so loved the world.
It doesn't matter what they say about me. They probably consider me a fag also. Even if they don't, tnhey still hate me. Jesus said, "They hated me first."
But it's not knowingly, is the point. These guys genuinely believe they are doing what God wants them to do.
It's not like their beliefs are so far out of the mainstream of fundamentalist Christians, anyway. Only their tactics are. Robertson and Falwell both openly blamed gays for 9/11, for example, and they are/were followed by millions.
But they are way out of the mainstream Christian beliefs. I know that God speaks to people all the time, but most never hear Him because they are too busy, too deaf, don't want to etc. . .
I have never supported either of those guys either. What others do I can do nothing about. I can only do what I can do.
You have a point. How ever, the main commandment is love. Love for God and one another If we have love for one another, how can some one show the hate that spews forth from the Westboro Baptist church?
In their sick, twisted minds, they are trying to save the world. So were Falwell and Robertson when they blamed 9/11 on gays and other "secularists". So is Brenda, for that matter. Sounds like love to me. ~shrugs~
It's unproductive and hypocritical to declare that these people are not Christians just because we happen to disagree with their understanding of Christianity. There are much better ways to demonstrate how wrong they are.
You are correct.
Sometimes it would seem that there are more wolves in sheep's clothing than there are sheep.
Hope they don't start killing everything that looks like a sheep,
that would please the wolf.
Cold morning here. Snow for tomorrow so we are having our dinner today.
I agree. Too many wolves! We hear of them all the time on TV news.
Got to go get my kitchen help.
Why do you feel the need to fabricate stories to support your beliefs, SirDent?
Seems you are doing exactly what the Westboro Church folks are doing.
No fabrication. Just using your logic. Pol Pot was an atheist who liked to nmurder so all atheists must be murderters.
Same thing as what many here are saying. WBC says they are christians so all christians are like them.
Yes, you are fabricating stories and no you aren't using any logic whatsoever.
And, you continue to fabricate stories by putting words in our mouths.
Shameful, SirDent. Quite shameful, indeed.
Dude, I don't know what you're using, but it ain't logic. It's not even the flawed logic you claim to be using.
Atheists have one thing in common: they don't believe in God. Which means they have about as much in common as I have with, say, Pee Wee Herman, since neither of us is a marathon runner. Ha, ha, ha, I'm just like Pee Wee, we both don't run marathons.
Christians have something in common: they believe in God and Jesus Christ. Of course, the loud obnoxious wankers get most of the press, and we have to spend a disproportionate about of energy 'refudiating' folks like WBC. Nobody accuses all Christians of being just like the Franciscans, for example. But the Franciscans do have something in common with the WBC.
I heard someone talking the other day about God having a relationship similar to a marriage between a man and a woman.
And like King Solomon he has as many wives; as many as want to marry him.
Is he supposed to treat someone else's wife the same as he treats his own?
That wouldn't be fair if he did.
God loves everybody according to the same source that people use to hate on people for their differences.
Although while it says God loves every person there are lots of actions that God doesn't like and I think Christians should start with those, like judgement - God hates it when we do that.
Also other actions God doesn't like is gossip - There are lots of verses on that....
There are plenty more actions that God doesn't like and most of the "thou art holier than though group" perpetrate these on a daily basis and if you don't then I aren't talking about you.
Christians are the only bible that some people will read and some of you read really poorly.
(I reserve the wrtie to make a hub on this. And to make it perfectly clear where I stand on this... I do believe in God (the one with the son Jesus Christ who died to Jhn3:16 - I am not a fan of Christians particularly those who deny Jesus Christ by their lifestyle which includes their petty judgements on other people. I guess I have just done that too, I however don't use my belief as a beating stick upon the general population, but I do believe that if you believe in something you should act like and LOVE is mentioned so many more times than any other word beside THE in the Bible.)
Good topic to try to get a rise out of people, but that God does not exist. God is Love!
Hmmm...just a thought... most Christians claim to follow the teachings of Jesus...I have read the gospels many times...i don't remember him saying anything about Gays in any sort....the God of the Jews or the Isrealites from the old testament said that a man shouldn't lay with a man as a woman...and since from what i have seen on these foroms as of late...we are under grace and therfore no longer required to follow the old laws. so with that being said...Jesus LOVED everyone...it didn't matter who or what you was...so to be christian...Hmm...i would think that you have to love everyone to qualify as a christian. you might not like or agree with certain lifestyles...but that is not up to us to say. our only job is to "love your god with all your heart, soul and mind" and "love your neighbor as yourself". two simple rules...and folks still can't get them right...
Jesus said he did not come to destroy the old laws but to fulfill
God destroyed Sodom and Gomora because of the sin running rampant there, men would rather lay with men rather than women
God still loves the gay people. but he hates sin (being gay, and all other sin
the new testament says one sin is as bad as another, God still hates what the gay people are doing
you are correct. Jesus came to FULFIL the prophesies of the OT...as he was considered the Christ(greek) or Messiah (Hebrew) I.E. the Anointed One. There are only 5 books in the Bible that have the words of Jesus... Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Revelations. So if you follow the "teachings" of Jesus you would be getting your information from one of these 5 books. All of the other books of the new testament are written by Peter, John, Jude and reference the interpreted teaching of Jesus or was written by Saul/Paul and IMHO Paul was off on his on thing and just claimed to be teaching what Jesus taught. Read the Book of Acts...The Elders (Jewish) and Church (12 Apostles) Had to send a few corrections out to different areas to correct what Paul was telling folks...
So I still stand by what I said previously... Jesus said " Love the Lord thy God with all your heart soul and mind" and " Love your neighbor as yourself" and if you follow this all other "laws" will be followed... two simple rules...and yet we make them so hard because we try to "understand" the "deeper" meanings...
I guess since I don't claim to be a christian, I am misunderstanding or misinterpreting the Bible.
Double Scorpian--- EXACTLY RIGHT. Its not that incomprehensible is it?
It is the "classification" of a sin that sets off the buzzers and whistles for me.
When we shed this skin, we will be free from sin. Or rather as a Christian I am "Free" from sin now, even though as a man I still sin. It's interesting to me that the most non-legalistic of the NT writers began his career as the most legalistic of the group. He was on his way to hunt down and drag Christians in Damascus to their trials and death in Jerusalem, when he ran head first into Love. In his early writings he refers to himself as "the least among the Apostles", in his last writings he refers to himself as "Chief among sinners".
Is Homosexual Sex a sin? Yes. So is looking at the legs of the little girl in the neighboring pew. So is imagining sex with anyone but your wife, and so is considering yourself one stitch closer to God than any other living human...ever... no matter what they are doing. So when we get perfect, we can teach perfect...until then, we best teach forgiveness and improvement.
I was guilty. The punishment for my crimes was Death. Eternal separation from my Creator. Someone else was put to Death in my place. He also paid for everybody Else's crimes. I have simply accepted that free gift, and some of them have not. Nothing...nothing I have ever done gives me the right to consider myself above, or wiser, or smarter, or more blessed than any other human. The same guy who paid my bail paid theirs too...some of them just haven't cashed in their ticket...yet.
how can god , if real hate any one?...god is said to be merciful to start with...if god allows gays to be born , provides them with same natural resources ...it proves that god doesnot hate gays...it is people who wrote books manifested their own hatred and gave it divine status...
God doesnt hate "fags", He doesnt hate anyone, according to the Bible to hate is to murder. You cannot judge a person but you can judge their sin, being homosexual is a sin according to God. As Christians it is not up to us to judge them however, we can judge their sinful actions and remind them that it is wrong. God will take care of the rest. I believe there are 12 instances where it is mentioned in the Bible; Genesis 19:5, Judges 19:22,Deuteronomy 23:17-18, 1 Kings 14:23-24, 15:12-13, 22:46, 2 Kings 23:6-8, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Leviticus 18:21-22, Leviticus 20:13, Romans 1:26-27, and 1 Timothy 1:8-10.
It is a sin and it goes against God's will, God will be the one to judge them when their time is up.
"Wrong," and "sin," do not mean the same thing. And it is not possible to judge someone's actions without judging them, no matter how much you pretend to do so. Casting judgment from behind the skirts of an invisible super being seems a favored pastime amongst self-professed Christians. No wonder your religion is responsible for so much hatred and ill will.
You are correct that it is next to impossible to judge a persons "Sin" and not inflict that judgment upon the person.
Things like this can best be seen when looking at extreme cases.
I would think that most people would think it to be wrong to become a crack addict.
No matter what we say; we we can not help but judge the addict, as well as the addiction.
I know that I don't want a crack addict living in my home, especially unattended.
NO ! I am not comparing a gay person to a crack addict.
Just making a comment as to how hard it is to separate our judging a persons actions without judging the person.
Well, we agree for once. I genuinely do not see how you can separate the two. Which means a lot of judging of the person disguised as judging of the actions. Merry Xmas - off to a party now.
Homosexuals do in fact know their actions can be interpreted as sin against your god. In that regard, you are free to judge these actions based on your scriptures and your god just as they are free to be homosexuals. Both sides are equally free.
That is correct. You're free to debate the actions of homosexuals as judged by your god.
That isn't quite right. Although you are free to judge the acts of homosexuals, you are not free to remind them that it is wrong as that now deals with an entirely different set of ideals, which is that of holding your set of morals and ethics above others and that you are now judging what is right and what is wrong and are conveying and imposing that judgment on others.
This diminishes their rights and freedoms and breaches the boundaries of holding and honoring respect.
Yes, and you are free to go on with your life believing that your god will take care of homosexuals, but you're not free to do the work of your god yourself.
You have made your case clear and have expressed it on a public forum. The case is largely based on the interpretation of a particular set of scriptures and gods, but you appear to be claiming it as a certainty even though it has no relevancy to those who don't share your beliefs.
However, I do applaud and thank you for sharing your opinions and will always support your right to do so. If you have anything new to share, please bring it forth. Considering that homosexuals already know all too well that their actions are a sin against your god, we can pretty much leave that one on the shelf and move on to something else, whadda ya think?
Scripture answer: Proverbs 6:16-19: "There are six things which the Lord hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers."
Jesus of Nazareth said: Who among you has been chosen to judge. Judge not, for in your judgement, that same measuring stick will be used for you. Hate no one, love your neighbor, raise not your hand in anger, forgive those who spitefully use you. (WHO is being spitefully used here? Are gays killing heteros?) I am a protection for all in the storm.
Yes, he said that, and more, including: Let they who are without sin, cast the first stone.
Those who presume to know how, why, and whom God hates are liars...AND GOD HATES LIARS!
Which god? To some God is an evil being (the Gnostic Demiurge), to some He's all love. Some have numerous gods...
I think that the most important part of the story has been overlooked!.
I would think that the town was filled with every kind of sinful people.
Yes; the example of all of the men in town that wanted to rape the travelers that had come to town were Homosexuals, but is not the most interesting thing about the story.
We can jump to conclusions that homosexuality is the only sin present, but that does not have to be true.
If we remember that the Lord PROMISED that if only ten righteous men could be found in the town, ... the town would be spared for their sakes.
This was a PROMISE ! And it wasn't broken !
I think that when Lot offered to trade his virgin daughters to the mob, this showed that he didn't have faith that these angels of God could fend for themselves.
That symbolizes the fact that not even ONE righteous man was found in the town.
I think that this is the main point of the story, ...
And we choose to focus on something else to serve our own purpose.
Just my thoughts anyway.
good morning, Jerami
Hope everything is fine there
we woke to a white Christmas, only maby half an inch
It does serve to be a truth notwithstanding its mythical relevancy then and now.
It seems to symbolize more the fact that Lot was completely disengaged with reality and had gone insane.
God doesnt feel. God is energy. People should really stop acting as if "God" were a human with human emotions. Also if God was an intelligent being it is the highest form of arrogance to say you know what "God" feels. As far as gay people go why does it matter so much to people what others do? It seems to me if you dont like something then you avoid the situation not keep bringing it up as if you are entitled. Grow up and let people live their lives and you live yours.
Why Not? I have the right to give my opinion just as well as you. Maybe you should write more hubs. 2 hubs in 8 months? you must be a sock puppet.
did not come to the Hubs to write Hubs
thought I might learn something about the Bible and Jesus
Hokey said "It seems to me if you dont like something then you avoid the situation not keep bringing it up as if you are entitled. (Grow up and let people live their lives and you live yours.)"
sounds like your saying the Christians should shut up!
Hokey says "Why Not? I have the right to give my opinion just as well as you."
Christians should keep their opinions to themselves, but You have the right to give your opinion, actually that sounds like a few Christians I have met, But just a few
I was just saying that if you do not want to hear the opinions of Christians, why jump in, unless you believe people should listen to you but no one else
To say that God is energy is like saying vegitables are green beans.
How do you figure? Not a very good comparison Jerami.
let's define fag as anyone, regardless of their sexuality or anything else, who is so ruled by their selfishness and greed and endless quest for power that they have no love in their being - that, to me, constitutes a fag, and it appears there are way too many of them.
fag zombies- they're the worst.
argue with that
God does not hate anyone, he hates what fags do, not hateing them
Then, there is no need for your god to punish them if he doesn't hate them. If so, then you can bet that heaven is full of homosexuals. You must be very pleased.
Did you notice you called them fags? I noticed.
before someone shuts this thread down for being redundant, crude, and unneccessary
let's just ASK a zombie-fag, why he/she got to be that way, all, you know, kind of, zsombie-fagified and hateful and greedy and mean and deceitful and greeenchy, yezzzzzz, zombie-grinchified, as well!
even zombie catz do not like zee zombie-fag - there'fore zsombie-fag steel hiding zomewherez.
iis possible, zsombie-fags are defunct, gone, reformed, or bored with all of us!
Jane Bovary wrote ..
Well so far as I can tell, only those things which coincide with a believer's personal moral sense/bias/prejudice are God's Will...the other stuff is apparently *cultural context* or a mistranslation.
- - - - - -
I agree completely with that comment.
I take liberty to respectfully add just one thought
..... only those things which coincide with .. any persons .. personal moral sense/bias/prejudice are intelligent enough to consider ...the other stuff is apparently conjecture..
We all do it from cradle to the grave.
It seems to be a human response.
There is too much information to he had, to do otherwise.
If there was a God like the christians believe then it wouldnt hate. Couldnt hate. Is all loving, compassionate, all knowing and loves us. Tell that to the people being murdered, the innocent children starving, earthquakes, flash floods, wild fires, tornadoes, Hurricanes, mudslides.......
If there is a God it is a 3 year old psychopath burning human ants with his celestial magnifying glass.
The truth of the matter is that nobody knows except the dead and they are not talking. I will never trust your man made books to tell me what to believe. Bible, Koran, Talmud,.....
Personally I prefer Batman # 26.
a lot of people want to blame God for all the things going wrong here on earth, we pull tons and tons and tons of things from under the earth, changing things beneath, and expect things not to change on top, man made explosions every where, changing the ozone, looks to me that we need to take the blame fore things wrong on earth, as far as the children God put us in charge, so how about all of us start helping the hungry and needy
God does not control things on earth, that is our job, and we are pretty bad at it
Then why do we pray to this God if He isn't in control of anything?
How long have you been a deist?
if you owned a large company you would have others to do the work, you would watch and let people know if they are doing wrong, at least the ones who will listen
This analogy required absolutely no deep thought.
You can think deeper than that, can't you?
You make God look like nothing but a mere human.
This analogy is not describing an omnipotent, omniscient God at all. This is just whimsical and absurd.
no matter how simple I try to make it, you just can not seem to understand about God, but that is OK, no one has to try to understand
Can you describe anything outside of this world in terms other than what is nothing but a comparison to things OF this world.
Surely your depth of thought goes deeper than what your posts indicate.
I have faith that they do.
That's the same thing my cousin said to me, but he also says he has been abducted by aliens, predicted the future, talked to my dead father, etc.
I have tried in vain to reason with him, and he only feels angry and hurt that I can't respect and accept his distortions as facts.
He has tried to tell me that intellect is not the only tool that can be used to describe things, but he has not provided any evidence of any other means by which to describe something. And here you are stating the same nonsense...not knowing that this is utterly absurd.
Delusion is brutal.
by SwordofManticorE4 years ago
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