he told to love our enemies, but still drive his enemy(Satan) away.
doesn't he practice what he preach?
I think, in this instance, Satan was trying to "tempt" Jesus by saying, "If you follow me (meaning Jesus worshipping Satan), I will give you all of these"-meaning the world and its pleasures, and this is why Jesus wanted Satan to go away because Satan wanted to be more powerful than God. This is how I've interpreted it. Hope this helps!
"The Son of Man shall send forth his His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire; there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
– Matthew 13.41,42.
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be damned"– Mark 16.16
"And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple." – Mark 11.15,16.
now see that it was not only satan but human were enemies too and he is not forgiving anybody.
he was getting rid of the actions that was taking place
the sellers was welcome to return without their wares
Jesus was spending time with satan before satan tried to tempt Him,
if you are being tempted by something, the best thing is get it away from you
you forgot "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be damned" exorter. these is not about satan
So what you are saying that every Child is being born in sin UNLESS he/she is baptized in the name of Jesus, right?
This implies that if a small child dies without being Baptized, he will remain in hell forever. This is what you believe?
The implication is for accountable adults, not little children who're unable to make a conscious choice about eternal matters.
Hi Brenda and Caroline, I love your insightful response. God is Great.
Thank you, Woman of Courage-I'm glad you think the same way!:-)
Thank you, Brenda, for sharing your thoughts on this!:-)
King David saying: "Surely I was sinful at birth, and in sin my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5)
"The wicked as estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies." (Psalm 58:3)
"Man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean....Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." (Job 14:1-4)
"Just as sin entered the world through one man (Adam), and death resulted from sin, So death spread to everyone, because everyone sinned." (Roman 5:12)
"Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be damned." (Mark 16:16)
So its clearly proved from the above Bible verses that every child is being born in SIN. I can QUOTE another 1 or 2 dozen Biblical verses in CONTEXT. Unfortunately, uneducated Christian friends are either feeling a bit SHAME or UNWILLING to disclose the reality of this PAGAN man made doctrine, Original Sin & Baptism, which PAUL included in the teachings of Jesus (PBUH) and which says that infants who are not BAPTIZED will remain in hell forever.
St. Thomas Aquinas shed some light on Baptism & writes:
“But this sacrifice of Jesus is only for that person who has faith in Jesus, and who acts on his teachings. The sign of such faith is the fulfillment of the ritual baptism. The undergoing of baptism signifies faith in the redemption of Jesus on the part of the baptized. Hence, being baptized through Jesus is deemed to take the place of his death and second life. Consequently, whoever undergoes baptism will have his original sin forgiven, and he will be given a new free will. On the other hand, that person who does not undergo baptism, his original sin remains with the result that he becomes entitled to perpetual sin. But original sin incurs everlasting punishment; since children who have died in original sin, because they have not been baptized, will never see the Kingdom of God.” (Aquinas, Vol.1,p 714)
This concept is further explained by Martin Luther, who was the father of the Protestant Reformation;
“Only believe and you will be redeemed. There is no necessity to bear the hardships of good acts like fasting, abstinence from sins and humility of confession, be sure that without them and only for your true faith in Christ, you shall certainly get salvation of Christ. No matter if you get involved in fornication and murder a thousand times a day, you are destined to reach salvation only for your true belief. I repeat, only your belief will get you redeemed.”
I, as a Muslim, FIRMLY believes that this ORIGIANL SIN and BAPTISM doctrine can never ever be the teachings of Jesus Christ (PBUH) BUT all this is, what PAUL injected into Christianity and distorted the TRUE teachings of God Almighty. The God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad (Peace be upon all of them).
First of all, you're going by the "letter of the Law", which the Bible says kills. Mankind is enabled with both common sense (which matures at some age in a person) and with free will. Jesus's sacrifice gave everyone a chance to repent and get forgiveness for their sins AFTER they've matured enough to be able to make that choice. Jesus didn't change the Law, but He did Spiritualize it.
And as a Christian, I myself do believe in the doctrine of "original sin", but NOT the way it's taught by many of the followers of Calvin and etc; nor the way it's taught by some sects of Catholicism. Baptism doesn't save anyone; and a little baby is not in need of "saving" yet.
Common sense tells us that a little baby is unable to make choices and is not going to hell.
Paul, much maligned and attacked, is a very controversial figure but indeed a man of God who changed his life after meeting Christ. Praise God for Paul! He was a challenger, like John the Baptist and Jesus were challengers. In that verse in Romans that you quoted, Paul was making a statement of fact, but not specific. He was simply illustrating the general fallen state of all people who are lost without Jesus.
A child is born innocent! There is nothing more innocent in the eyes of God than a child! As a matter of fact, when we are saved, we are to become as little children--which are innocent--and grow in the Lord!
Even then Christianity says that the children are hereditarily sinful and are not innocent !
Not true Paar! Christianity says that Children are innocent! Where do you get your information from? Apparently you do not know the christian ways---of course you don't! So why try to put words in the mouths of Christians? I am a christian, and all the Christians I know believe children are born innocent! Jesus said woe unto those who touch his little ones... and suffer not the little children! We beleive Jesus held children close to his heart!
He was in a conversation earlier where it was reported that children had to be baptised or they might go to hell if they died in their sin that they were born into,
This is why we should never interpret scriptures cause both of these references that this contradiction comes from can not be true as interpreted.
Ahmad quoted OT law which is all about sin and condemnation. NT is all about the new covenent. Maybe that's where the confusion is?
No--the confusion is in trying to entangle the Qu'ran and the Bible! These are two totally different concepts and beliefs! Neither can back the other!
Quran corrects the mythical part of Bible and presents the real person Jesus son of Mary; neither god nor son of god; just son of man.
Interesting, a book of scriptures revealed by the Abrahamic god corrects an earlier book of scriptures revealed by the Abrahamic god, as a myth, no less.
And even more interesting, it also reveals the "real person" behind the myth.
All this centuries later in a land far, far away...
Paar how can you say the Qu'ran corrects the Bible when the Qu'ran says the Torrah is the word of God...yet the Qu'ran contradicts those scriptures! It makes no sense!
God is not going to make mistakes in the Torrah then send down his "real" word by an angel to a man who foams at the mouth during his angel visits and leaves him in great fear!
What if your entire book is mythical, by a madman (who truly did foam at the mouth) who was visited by a demon and not an angel! What if he was seeing things? What if he was deceptive? I see the last one to be true here! I seriously doubt God would send an angel to call a prophet...neither would God's angel leave a man in fear as was Muhammad...angels of God always put the person at ease...not Muhammad--he was scared to death and laid in bed shaking afterwards!
Sorry... but I don't see God correctly his own word by the Qu'ran! I think that is mythical in itself!
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
When Jesus died on the cross, our sins were washed away and forgiven. He offered us salvation and that's why He paid for our sins. God gets upset, just like humans do, when we do not do as He commands, but it does not mean that He does not forgive us. He is just like our "earthly parents"-they get upset when we disobey them, but they love their children and so they forgive them.
But only for those who believe He is the Saviour. Kind of like grant money. It's there for everyone but if you don't claim it, it doesn't do you any good.
Yup - this religion will always cause division. Always has - always will.
"My way or the highway." Sad really.
You have just given the definition of repentance and salvation!
Loving someone's soul is what's required. We don't have to love everything about them and welcome them with open arms when they're obviously being an enemy to us.
As far as loving them as we love ourselves......I would want someone to warn me if I was headed for hell; anyone with any common spiritual sense would; warning enemies about the consequences of their actions/ways is a high form of love.
Another point is----sometimes....loving one's enemies means avoiding exacting vengeance upon them, even after they've attacked you. And literally avoiding them altogether when necessary. Jesus never says we've got to be buddy-buddy with enemies, nor allow them to invade our personal lives.
God is serve through the development of the Christ in you.
The Christ is any mind which desires to know truth.
Jesus instructions are geared towards the development of this mind. and not necessarily a commandment per se.
Since Rather himself is love our concept of "satan" does not exist within himself. This is because he Father has attained perfection of Himself.
Instead to Him, Satan is merely the Stone He as the builder has rejected for use in the facade of the building
But best suited for the foundation.
Just my opinion... and something to think about.
according to scripture,
God showed small miracles to Abraham and he believed.
and kept his faith.
Then a seven year drought came over the entire land.
Jacob and his people fled to Egypt cause there was a great storehouse of food there.
I often wondered why they stayed there after the drought was over?? but that's not the point.
Then .. during the exodus, God was with the people and still they showed little faith.
The point of this post is that God showed himself to the people and the people still doubted. As proofs, He sent prophets to inform the people of events that would soon come true. Such as those given to Daniel, concerning the four kingdoms that will be given dominion over Israel if they did not stop worshiping other gods, he was going to restrain his favor to them. Kinda like a husband that tells his wife; ...
.. " If you want my checkbook and want me to keep putting money in the account, You need to come home!"
We act the way we do and then wonder why we don't see more miracles.
We want him to prove himself to us "THEN" we might believe.
He tried that many times and it doesn't work for long.
Cause our children won't believe us without proof.
Just my opinion... and something to think about. according to scripture, God showed small miracles to Abraham and he believed. and kept his faith.
- - - - -
Abraham was a delusional psychotic, who believed that God told him to brutally murder his own son.
- - - - - -- - -
Our children won't believe us without proof.
- - - - - - -
It would have been to the advantage of Abraham's children to question his nonsensical beliefs, as his beliefs were deadly to his children.
None of which has anything to do with the point that I was making.
You selectively plucking my eyebrows do not change the color of my eyes.
I know it was off topic, but I'm so disgusted by your continued use of this criminally insane, psychotic child abuser(Abraham) to make your points.
I guess it's only "enemies" who're supposed to get "loved on"!
Certainly a God-fearing man like Abraham shouldn't get any compassion or tolerance!
It is written that God knew us before we were born.
I think that whatever he knew about that person before they were born will determine what happens when that child dies, wouldn't Ya think ?
I see your point but I disagree.
A child is innocent until they reach the age of accountability. At least that's my take on it. I know there's Scripture that says even a child is known by his ways, whether he/they be good or bad.......but I don't think that applies here.
In other words, I disagree if you're saying that God will judge a child for what he/she MIGHT HAVE become as an adult....is that your meaning, Jerami? Because if a child dies, a child dies; they don't ever grow to become an accountable adult...
I understand the verses where God said that he KNEW Esau and Jacob before they were born to literally mean just that.
God hated Esau while still in the womb (before he was even in the womb) I don't think that God already hated him for what he will do.
He actually KNEW them before they were in the womb.
Right. He knew them. As He knows everyone.
But the subject was about children who die, right?
So...if Esau had never grown up into a man, I don't think he would've ever become accountable for anything he did. Nor would Jacob have.
There is, however, a huge element of evidence of God's plans being set in place beforehand. I've always wondered why He would use a liar and cheat like Jacob and his mother to further His plans. But indeed maybe the entire thing of that's for Him to know and me to find out later. I think repentance, as always in the Bible, is key.
To me, these verses and many others like them, are saying that God knew the person before they were even incarnated.
Like they had a personality even before they were in the womb. That God might have walked with them, fed them, maybe even spanked them, and then they incarnated in the womb.
He knew us since the beginning of the world.
Doesn't say that he will know what we are going to be ,
but that he knew us.
But of course this is just my interpretation.
Oh. You believe in re-incarnation...?
Okay. Never mind.
No I do not believe in reincarnation as many people do.
I am only reading what the scriptures are saying without changing the meanings by inflicting MY interpretation upon them.
I do not think that new souls are created when a woman's egg is fertilized.
But that a son of God, an angel, spirit, whatever anyone wants to call it; then enters into the embryo.
I don't think that the fertilization of an egg creates the spirit. The fertilization of an egg sets into motion the creation of a physical body only.
Spirit then enters into it.
Any other understanding would have woman creating SPIRIT.
How many times is it written that the human body is but a vessel that the spirit abides in.
Do you think that a fertilized egg creates spirit?
No I do not believe in reincarnation as many people do.
Similar but not the same.
Okay. Which leaves me with the question of how does one "spank" a "spirit"? As you referred to.
When I refer to spanking a child I might be talking about simply letting them know that I am not pleased with their behavior to actually spanking them leaning them over a chair depending upon how old they are and how disrespectful their action was.
I can't even imagine how he would do it, because I am in the physical.
We do not know the ways of God. I would suppose he would have a way when needed. I'm just guessing.
Did Jesus love his enemies?
Were not the Jews Jesus' enemies?
One may know the ways of the Creator-God from the Word of God, if understood correctly.
Interpretation is done of necessity; like when we make an experiment we interpret the results. Don't we?
You may be right, but I think that it is best to do as little interpretation as is absolutely possible.
Don't do it unless absolutely necessary, and
not even then if we can help it.
When people blame Word of God stating such and such thing;and the context denies that; so one has to tell the person that your interpretation is wrong; you have wrongly interpreted the sentence; and this is the correct interpretation. Is it not essential?
The clauses of Law and Constitution are always interpreted and professionals are involved in it. I think this is done out of necessity; the same way the law in the Word of God is interpreted.
I don't see any wrong there. Am I wrong?
Sorry about the delay. friend stopped by for a moment.
I just think that when two interpretations are contradictory as the conversation above.... something has gotta be wrong.
Either babies do have to be baptised or they don't.
I don't think that they do.
According to what I've read in the Bible, babies are born free of sin! Adults can make decisions for themselves...children can't!
I agree with you....
But due to different verses and different interpretations there seem to be three different views.
1 Children are guaranteed salvation
2 children need baptism to be guarantee salvation.
3 Until children reach the age of accountability their salvation is dependant upon the salvation (or not) of their parents.
I often wonder how much those people that translated scriptures from the original languages were affected by their previously held interpretations.
The words being translated, all too often had a number of different ways in which they could have been translated, And the established interpretations of those translators are going to influence the way in which they translate, causing the meanings of the verse in question to be drastically changed
This is when we have to use discernment.
If babies are born free of sin; then why does Christianity believe the sin to be hereditary in humans?
You have a valid point here-It is true that the "concept of sin" can be difficult to understand, but I think when they say "babies are free of sin," it is because they have no 'carnal knowledge,' yet. Although as humans we are born sinful since we've inherited our sinful nature from Adam and Eve. Hope this helps!
Seems the poster is mixed up on judgement and love.
john 3:16 for god gave his only begotten son that whomsoever might believe on him should be saved and not perish. We all know this verse. Its hard to imagine anyone NOT capable of love, giving a son. (But he got him back so whats the diff? you say) Well if you can imagine watching someone you love go through the tortures of the cross and say thats no biggie than perhaps you are incapable of love.. anyway)
God loves all and wishes that none should perish is the whole picture. A part of the picture within the picture is that God will judge the unrighteous and sinners and will cast them into the lake of fire. Why? 2 reasons.
Gods love is behind his "salvation". For those who are saved and have scripturally entered into His salvation, Gods love is unmeasurable towards them. For those who choose not to believe and hence have not entered into the salvation process of God there is a judgment to be had. God will purge his abode because that is where God wishes to live and God does not want to live with sin because sin destroys and in a forever and ever situation, anything that destroys is not welcomed.
2) When meeting God at the judgment seat of christ, it will be like friends re-uniting. God will know those who are his and vice versa. Its like when you go to visit family - you instinctively know who they are and are (for this examples purpose) pleased to see them. But for those who know not God and vice versa, any stranger who wants to live in my house is usually known by me.
And to this you say, "but he knows all people". Yes but there is a difference in knowing and knowing. I know many people but i do not know them like family. I am human and God is god, how much more shall he know who is fit for the kingdom of God and who is not.
Jesus asked God to forgive the very men who were torturing Him and causing His physical death.
And those men wern't even finished yet>
Now that is a loving heart.
Right. And I know people who find it impossible to forgive the slightest thing. Like I always say, if all Christians would just try to emulate Jesus and leave behind the judging and hating, the world would be a better place. Not referring to you, Jerami!
I know what ya mean habee, I know people that are still hating after years,
A lot of people are doing that not realizing that their own hate is eating them up, and affecting everyone that they come into contact with.
And cheating themselves out of what could have been.
Ya just don't know what could have been but isn't?
I agree Jay_kumar_07! "Trying to avoid enemies is equal to love" because God is love and He wants us to love "everyone," which includes people who do not like us or have squabbles with once in a while or people who you don't agree with (politicians/in-laws/parents/siblings)-just about anybody who you do not see 'eye to eye' with. Short but very insightful comment!:-)
I gotta say Brenda, WOC, and CarolineVABC. With all the schisms in Christianity in the past 2000 years, it's magnificent that Christians are still able to get past the differences and hear the calling. And I don't blame the pagans for not getting it.
It's all His doing. His voice reaches through any crowd, no matter how loud the crowd is. He is magnificent!
Of course. I was being self-centered. Sorry!
Huh? I didn't think you were being self-centered at all, so I dunno what you mean. I appreciated your comments! Sorry if mine was confusing.
I meant that He called and I came forward is how you put it. The way that I put it was that I heard Him which is self-centered. If that makes any sense.
Not sure. ha. But I hope you do hear Him?
Personally, I think He has to shout pretty loud for me to hear Him sometimes, since I'm a stubborn case. But it gets my attention!
Glad you hear Him, Flightkeeper! Sometimes, you really have to be "centered" to be able to. In my case, I feel like I'm looking for 'my calling' every which way when it's always been in front of me all the time!:-) Today's technology has made it possible for Christians to reach out to other people all over the world. Of course, meeting someone in person and praying with them is probably the best thing, but many times, in this day and age, that is not possible. Then we do the next best thing is reaching out to other people via internet:-).
Hi Flightkeeper, God is Great, and their is power in his holy word No one can silence the voice of God. I didn't think you were being self-centered either. Your comments are greatly appreciated.
Jesus actions proved time and time again that he did love is enemies.
Think about it just for a moment, people are calling you a liar, a false prophet, wanting badly to stone you to death and here you have the power of God.... and these people are still living. Oh yea he loved is enemies Because if it had been me-well you don't want to hear what I would have done.
presume you comments are directed towards me, I don't understand what you're saying?
you were saying that if somebody called you names you would react, but jesus didn't. if you call zeus or osiris or jesus or any non existing entity how do you expect them to react?
Thank you for clarifying:
Jesus/God would take the higher ground because that's who they are. As I recall they said only one sin is unforgiveable and that's has to do with insulting the holy spirit.
Never in my life have I ever claimed to be perfect.
but even i now call the holy spirit a ^%$^%$ nothing will happen to me. it is as i said non existent beings don't react, but we and our belief make as contrive realty to fit our belief
"If you follow me (meaning Jesus worshipping Satan), I will give you all of these"...see i always knew satan is in control and not god...
YES and we are to do the same,Love our enemies, And remember before we were converted we were enemies of Christ.
better make christ an enemy than satan who control the world
so all those people who were born before christ and all those people who still lives and haven't heard about christ are christ's enemies? great work
Christ has no enemies. Unlike his worshiping followers, he loves everyone, remember?
Did Jesus love his enemies?
Jesus did forgive wrongs of his enemies like Muhammad forgave wrongs of the infidel Meccans who constantly attacked Medina to kill Muslims.
Jesus Loves everyone in the world. God Loves Everyone in the World. If God didn't than he wouldn't have bothered sending his only son to be crucified ont he Cross.
John, Verse 16 - For he so loved the world that he gave his only son.
And Children who die in childbirth, by abortion or before their 12th birthday (acording to Jewish belief but that could also be 13th birthday) go to heaven, it doesn't matter that they haven't been baptised. What that means is that I'm 25, I need to get baptised.
When Jesus said love your enemies He was referring to our fellow man, our neighbor he did not include fallen angles or the Devil in this command. If a person reads the Bible, they must read each verse within the context of the whole Bible, you cannot interpret just one verse loosely or it can mean anything, it is important to find the right interpretation and that can only be found by searching he scriptures.
As to Satan, he had his chance when he was an Angel and God loved him very much, but he chose to rebel, that changed his position forever and he was no longer welcomed in the kingdom. Angels have a different doctrine than human beings. Therefore the doctrine for angels is different. Satan had his chance and he chose to leave God and rebel. Jesus cannot follow or have fellowship with him because, Satan's path has already been established long ago when he fell from grace and abandoned his position as the head cherub.
Jesus gave this commandment to human beings that have not been through their final judgement phase and can still be saved, therefore a human enemy still has the potential to change, angles once fallen cannot change, their course is set. I hope this explanation helps. You may want to consult a book on angletology.
Thank you I appreciate your support. I know this is a tough one to answer and when I was first a Christian I found the difference between the human and angel doctrine a bit fuzzy, until someone explained the differences to me.
I read an excellent book on angeltology called Angels Elect and Evil and that really helped me a lot.
Poor god! How many mistakes can he make?
He made mistakes while he created Satan, human, when he planted the trees in eden. Will he ever learn from his mistakes?
Actually it wasn't God who made the mistake, he created tests for both humans and angels and then he gave both creatures freewill. In other words the freedom to make mistakes. He warns us if we sin we will have consequences. What we choose is up to us.
It's a spiritual law, you sin there are consequences and the price of sin is death, spiritual death. In the physical world there are certain laws that cannot be denied such a gravity, you jump of a cliff you are most likely to be injured.
God is sovereign He and only He can decide what is right or wrong and what to create and for what purpose.
He gave you the freedom to choose and to have your own opinion, but that doesn't make Him wrong either.
BTW Satan was created a perfect angel and humans started out sinless, it was our choice to sin and the same goes for the angels.
If god didn't make mistakes why did he regret, got angry..?
The Bible does say that God did regret creating man in certain parts of the Bible, that is the risk God was willing to take to give man freewill, otherwise we would all be holy puppets. We would never sin and there would be no free will. God wants us to love Him freely and that means risking anger and feeling frustrated with creation, when we respond by sinning.
The Creator-God Allah YHWH never regrets.
It is a mistake of the sinful scribes to mention such things in the Bible.
Jesus did forgive wrongs of his enemies like Muhammad forgave wrongs of the infidel Meccans who constantly attacked Medina to kill Muslims.
Jesus, in the garden of Gethsemane, replaced and healed the soldiers ear that Peter had cut off and said, "No more of this!" He also cried out, "Father, please foregive them, for they know not what they do." Jesus loves everyone of us, that is why God is being so patient. He wants us all to live with him in Heaven. It's our choice and one day the Father is going to say something to the effect of, "Son, it's time for You to return and gather up the ones who love You." Be ready.
You know what bothers me...a lot...
How is it that other religions can be all 'we've been ersecuted' and crap - but when the Christians point out the SAME persecution, n o one gives a damn.
Big bloody deal, so Muhammed and his followers were persecuted. So were the Christians! get over it.
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