Early Americans did not share the blind faith of today's fundamentalists. Faith" is a fine invention, with some skepticism.
But can science and scripture live happily together without fighting. What story do you prefer no.1 or no. 2
1. There is all kinds of evidence for dinosaurs. We also have an immortal jelly fish living from 650 million years ago. We think evolution and most professional scientist are mainly telling the truth. Arts and cultures began 40,000 years ago, long before Genesis- origin, creation, or beginning of the earth.
2. We have very little or no evidence to support the world beginning with Adam and Eve? Our planet began 6014 years ago, the story started with a talking snake from the tree of knowledge. We believe the bible is the Universal truth and knowledge and all human on earth can be saved from hell only by Jesus Christ, only 144,000.are sealed going to heaven. Most everyone else are not aware of the bible. The Bible is the be all and end all. Oh!! Almost forgot you have free will, too,
I build natural history museum displays and love to study history
This does not prove your point In fact I would think that average American back in those days had more faith in christian god, as there were no other alternatives that people tend to believe today, like science or government. So, those who needed to believe in order to function, believed in christian god.
All that assumes of course you are talking about pioneers, not native americans - that would be a whole different can of worms in terms of their beliefs
The last 400 years, is considered new world Christianity. Still today Christianity growing all over the world as strong as ever as it has ever been. While attendance to church has been decreasing in Europe in recent years.
There are many variables of early American any population figure to its inception. Mann's estimate of 100 million for the Americas at 1491 versus 70 million for Europe. Europe's population suffered by new cattle-borne diseases whereas the Americas was not. South and Central America with its cities was far greater population than that of North America.
Columbus brought the Americas the first Christianity, piracy, gold rush and European slavery.
Blind faith is not an invention it is a point of view a way of seeing things with spirituality.
"Blind faith" is based upon a concept which is just: "hope."....period!
Don't all "believers?"
But when broken down, "hope" is nothing but a "wish."
So? Place all the credit ya'd like in the "wish."
One can't change reality...:
The reason I title this tread Blind Faith a Modern Invention because it’s not what the word translated as "faith" meant in Biblical times. Blind faith may be is
Hope is distinct from positive thinking and far more open ended than blind faith. The word hope is found in the Bible, 121 times in the KJV, and 159 times in the NIV.
Blind faith is faith without evidence, which would be superstition, The Bible does not call us to blind faith it’s foreign to the Bible Faith
I have faith in up, down and sideway there is reasoning to this belief.
Blind faith unable to see; lacking the sense of sight; sightless. 2. Unwilling or unable to perceive or understand. 3. Not having or based on reason or intelligence. 4. hard to see or understand.
I'm sure you understand, Castle, that the the bible has been corrupted over great lengths of time by interpretation into so many languages and by so many different people, (who have the ability to embellish with artistic license,) that there is not a shred of credibility in the words of either the old or new testaments.
The term "blind faith" may have popped up as human sophistication and language evolved offering a greater ability to study and understand the subject of metaphysics.
Regardless, "blind faith" is but "hope" and hope is naught but "wish."
I thought it was a rock band from the early 70s!
I have that vinyl !!!
The Dark ages...Crusades...The Inquisition...The modern form of slavery...I'd say faith without personal rational has been around for a while! And as for 1 or 2? My friend Castlepaloma...after some opinion and some founded editing??? hehehe... I choose faith but, only if I get to re-write the descriptive paragraphs!
Are we going into the evolution vs creation debate again?
Yes Science and Religion can live happily together so for me its 1 and 2.
I love everybody too,
I think Jesus was right, but the translations were wrong,
Basing my life on good sense, no. 1, makes good sense
We are at
4 for no. 1
3 for no. 2
So does the majority rule? Awww ok seems I'm a minority.
You want the earth to be both 4 billion years old and a little over 6000 years old, kind of a huge gap of time and here say.
Because I build many nature History museum displays. Governments will fund evaluation in schools, but not creationist myths, I can't float with you on this one.
Like I said in an earlier post. Before the greater and the lesser light came into being who is to say that the time lapse wasn't a few million years before time was created as we know it? If you think about it, since the greater and lesser light have come into being. Not much has evolved in the 6000 year old earth. Perhaps the mutations etc needed no sun or moon (no time as we know it) to evolve and the conditions that existed before the sun and the moon might very well have accommodated evolution.
The only two creation museum in the world, according to them the earth is actually 6014 years old, no light years or miller time.
One guy actually has a PHD, meaning- Piled Higher and Deeper
in dinosaur do do
Ok so any one that existed before the moon and the sun will have that knowledge?
That means nobody really knows because nobody was really there to know by experience.
I go with more so proven knowledge a hand rather than blind faith with hearsay for that just not good enough until No 1 is disproven
I find no reason to ignore the idea that the earth is zillions of "years old". I don't believe that statement to be directly refuted in the Bible.( Which I choose to use as a reference)Gen 1:1-1:2...In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. vs3) And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.4) God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.5)God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.
It is noteworthy that it is not until after He separates the waters below the sky from the waters above the sky, caused dry land to appear, and caused plants and vegetation to appear, that he decides to place the two governing lights in the sky. On the fourth day we see the sun and the moon in orbit and doing their work for the first time.
This, for me, is when "time" begins. The units of measure that we use to this day didn't appear until the fourth "day." How was a "day" measured before the sun and the moon were put in place?
So... to quickly highlight point for me to ponder... Lot's of creatin' goin' on for the first half of the creating time... with no humanely recognizable units of measurement. Also all the land was together...one big land mass. Also, the waters above the firmament and the waters below the firmament.
So... in short C-Man, I begin with no opinion on the age of soils or geological items. I do however, believe the literal time frame from verse 20 out.
I will concede any point however, accept one. God created. It is the only point that I consider to be worthy of tenacity...anything else is picking a fight needlessly. (at least to me.)
Missed you guys yesterday! Long weekend in the lab...
Wow, from lab to the beginning of time.
It's never worth fighting over with me, I can disagree with you on No 2, but
fighting really sucks, love rules. I'm very much in the dark about how your God made everything, yet who isn’t. Beside God lives in the dark with the mystery answer of "You got to have faith"
I've got for No 2
Yeah...I sort of thought so. Funny how hydrogen is such a powerful little element... Hope all is well C-man! I'll be trying to sort through some of the implications of the current line of research as soon as I can take the time to actually write a hub! Have a great night Man! You too Pennys!
http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/g … og-200861/
just a thought
the reason so many came here in the frist place is so they could worship God the way the Bible says to.Thats what made this country so great ,It was born as a light to the world so the world would know that he is God.
I think you're on to something. Blind faith is a modern phenomena. The more we learn from science, the more difficult it is to stand behind religious dogma, so a discussion can degrade down to an obstinate ' we'll, that's what I believe'. Faith is not impossible to have while accepting proven truths of science, if you remember that all you have been taught on religion (assuming your religion is through the Bible, I haven't studied others) has been interpreted by man. I personally see no valid reason to argue against evolution, or the calculated age of the earth. The Bible does not contradict it. Religious leaders do.
Many Believers believe it to be blasphemy to question the word of God (their bible) when in their bible it says to test the word, I don't remember where it is written but If I remember correctly God says to test him. To follow these instructions and see what happens.
Something like that.
He never says that we have privilege to change the word by interpreting it to mean something other than what it obviously says.
We may not understand it the way it is written; but don't change it so that it fits the way we WANT to understand it.
Time for me to go out in the world and make a days wages.
Yes, but who decides what is obviously there. The Pentateuch was given to a fairly primitive people. If you doubt that, read the Mosaic laws. So, you couldn't expect that level of mentality to follow much more than the way the formation of the world was explained. Imagine how many volumes it would take to just get past the first chapter of Genesis if God had decided to wait until now to reveal Himself to man. And imagine how fast the ancients would have fallen asleep if someone tried to explain how to sequence DNA. The first chapter of Genesis supports the concept of evolution, just not for the line of Adam.
I believe that the human race was genetically engineered by aliens from apes to serve them and mostly for purposes of physical labor. Then the aliens were gone, they went out of memory and we were left to figure out what really happened.
Anyway, check out an encyclopedia of native American beliefs and the talking snake will appear to be pretty reasonable afterwards. Trust me.
Definitely no.1. It's been proved that the world is billions of years old, but that doesn't mean to say there's no creator. The people who wrote the old testament just put their own take on things. They obviously had no concept of time - which is actually quite astonishing considering that the Ancient Egyptians were experts in mathematics, and mapping the stars in the heavens. The three pyramids of Giza have been carbon dated to 10,000 BC which obviously predates the genesis theory, and 10,000 years ago the pyramids were perfectly aligned with the three stars which make up the 'belt' in the constellation of Orion, which would have been directly overhead at that time.
(Fingerprints of the Gods - by Graham Hancock)
Half of American believes that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. That tells me most Christian believes in the date 6014 Genesis- origin.
It dose not seem that both can not be true, yet it dose show me, you consider middle grounds of the two, in which is healthier than being one sided
As true and good science is changing, many are not in keeping with the 6000 year old earth. I am not sure that your number of half of American's is completely correct there, not as much as say long ago.
Real truth will line up with the facts of good science. What is scary is how much bad science is being practiced and believed...To me it seems a whole new type of religion almost.
Time cannot have existed as we know it to exist till the greater and lesser light were formed four days later according to the record keepers. So you would be right in that they did not have the concept of time prior to the greater and lesser light being created. So their take would be limited to what one day is. It could have been much longer than they were experiencing. God bringing light into the world of darkness seems to be pointing to the big bang. Which made the heavens (universe) and earth too... and all that is upon the earth.
Castlepaloma wrote ...
2. We have very little or no evidence to support the world beginning with Adam and Eve?
= = = - - -
That is correct. The bible doesn't say that, and I've not read this in anything that I have read.
Castlepaloma wrote ..
only 144,000.are sealed going to heaven
- - - - - - - -
Again, I do not know where you get this information.
Scripture says that 144,000 righteous people will be the FIRST to enter this other realm which many people call heaven.
It is written that they did not die a physical death but were simply transformed, (what ever that means? I do not know)
THEN, there will be an innumerable number of souls that are allowed entry into heaven.
That is the way I understand what is written.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying about little evidence of the world not being with Adam & Eve.
Once Again, and Again, And Again...for whatever reason God has chosen not to be proven and from my point of view the bible wasn't written prove God but to give others hope.
The test of one's love is blind faith.'
Just look a young child placed on a refrigerate and father or mother says to the child "jump" the child trust that no harm will come to them and many children will jump when there's a real chance they may be seriously hurt.
The only natural fear you are born with, is fear of falling and loud sounds. After that, all fear are learn and earned, so you earn to trust your parents. I can't possible imagine a greater fearful image than learning to fear hell. Most people are more motivate stronger by fear than they are by love in our debtor slavery system.
I'm famous for doing many seemly unreasonable series of leaps of faith action. Yet there is always some degree of science and reason, and never totally blinded by faith.
i think every generation has elements of blind faith...what we see today is more due to larger access to communication , globalized world making people be more and more clinching to their identities and in turn becoming blind believers than questioning individuals...
My brother is a pastor, he started 10 years ago with this crazed, glaze over and possessed look on his face. Today, there is this huge long list of demonic topics we can't talk about, like dinosaurs or g spots. What make him madder than hell are negative topics from the bible. I hope he finds middle ground on earth rather than spacing out on extreme happiness or eternal torture, it's like an addiction or drug.
Even though most of my waking is doing my art, I try not obsessing over it
dinosaurs or g spots...oh well dont get into that...devil floated those things to distract you and me from god
They are natural, just not in the super natural way.
hey i was just kidding...i doubt any one can ignore fossils ...some still do but deep within they too know that world is not 6k year old...
You can not very well name Blind Faith modern by any standards. Considering that Rock and Roll itself came into being around 1956, a band that had been formed in 1968 can easily be included in the pioneers' list. Besides, Eric Clapton or Steve Winwood have been at it, without a recognized band of course, long before 1968. And so, Blind faith is very ancient and dead and buried. Fossils in vinyl can be dug out throughout the western world.
Is Blind Faith a Modern Invention?
Blind faith is no faith; faith should be based on reason,rationality experience and brilliant arguments.
Castlepaloma wrote ...
Half of American believes that the earth is less than 10,000 years old.
= = = = ME ...
I find that imposible to believe.
Maybe 1000 years ago half the people believed the earth was flat? I don't know.
Just my thoughts.
Actually, early americans followed the Great Spirit.
Is it not every word in the Bible true, as the Bible is infallible. divine and irrefutable
Do you not believe USA today is 78% christians?
Do you believe Genesis wrote the earth began in 4004 BC?
If YES, You must Believe the Bible wrote about dragons. Satyr, a creature of mythology creasure talking, gigantic sea monster giants. witches, sorcery and unicorns.
You believe the earth is flat. “four corners of the earth,” that the earth doesn’t rotate around the sun and stars and huge suns can “fall unto the earth
You believe in Satan tempted Jesus, But you can’t believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old?
Is Blind Faith a Modern Invention?
I kinda think that everyone has blind faith that our own concepts are correct, whatever they are.
Castlepaloma ASK this of me ...
Is it not every word in the Bible true, as the Bible is infallible. divine and irrefutable
= = = = = =
I don't think so; There are many problems where a word being translated from its original had numerous possibilities as to which word was appropriate in the particular instance that it was being applied.
Castlepaloma ASK ? ...
Do you not believe USA today is 78% christians?
Do you believe Genesis wrote the earth began in 4004 BC?
- - - - - -
I don't know about the percentages ??? BUT ...
I do know that the bible does not say that the earth was created around 4004. This my der is an erroneous misinterpretation, fed by presumption.
The genealogy back to Adam as recorded in Genesis states that Adam was created (depending upon who's calculations we are referring to) was around 40004BC or around 3700 BC.
There is no mention as to when the earth was created.
Castlepaloma ASK ? ...
You believe the earth is flat. “four corners of the earth,”
- - - -
Many times in the bible "The Earth" is not speaking of the planet, but an area either around Israel/Judea and in other instances it is applicable to the region around the Mediterranean .
So seen on a map it can said to have four corners.
Castlepaloma ASK ? ...
that the earth doesn’t rotate around the sun and stars and huge suns can “fall unto the earth
- - - - - -
I have no clue where you pulled this from , Where is scripture does it say this?
You believe in Satan tempted Jesus, But you can’t believe the earth is less than 10,000 years old?
= = = = = =
See answers written above this one.
Going to bed .. see ya in about 6 hours.
There is only two creationist museum in the world that I Know of.
Both say the earth began a little over 6000 years ago within 7 days
There are many people that say many things.
I feel that the world had to have been created one way or another; …period.
whether A Big Bang created it or a God.
Maybe God created it with a Big Bang?
Maybe a Big Bang created God?
I really don't care which.
I know in my heart of hearts that there is another realm of reality. And there is an interaction between these two.
I don't know exactly what God is; But I believe that he/it abides in both.
And when this physical body dies, I believe that we are then confined, for the most part, in that other realm.
And maybe there is a third realm for those people that don't want to get along in THAT other one which Christians call heaven??
Of course Christians are going to think of that other one as being in Hell.
That’s my story and I'm sticking to it.
Blind faith is not an invention. It is part of being human, therefore impossible to "invent". Everybody has faith. Faith has to do with convictions. Whether you believe in God or not you believe in something. That which causes you to believe in something is called faith and the ability or gift given to us to distinguish say between good and bad is called free will.
A person is affected by "blind faith" when unquestionly they believe in something because someone else believes in it.
In His Service
One should base one's faith on reason,rationality, research and revelation.
When I was a little girl my parents taught me that once a year an old man in a red suit would come down our chimney in the middle of the night and bring me toys for being good and being loved. When I was about eight years old my own common sense and logic told me that this man couldn't possibly be real (for all the obvious reasons) but even so, I wasn't ready to let go of the illusion. For some reason I wanted to believe in Santa Claus because the dream was better than reality.
I think we've been brainwashed into religion in a similar way, but that still doesn't stop me believing in a divine entity (creator)even though I'm now an adult.
What I object to is having religion rammed down my throat and being told I'll burn in Hell if I don't follow this or that.
Faith should be a personal thing, and if an individual feels the need to have a relationship with the creator they believe in, then they should be allowed to do just that. But they shouldn't try and convert everyone else, just because a badly translated ancient book tells them they must 'spread the word'
Well, the earth, as everyone knows, is only eight days old. It's a BABY!
Oh, and Blind Faith is a band from the late sixties.
Oh, sorry. It says "modern invention". Thought it said "Mothers Of Invention"
Maybe Father Time impregnated Mother earth then their children went on and found incest acceptable but being gay was not fruitful enough.
Who dares to tell the story about the clergymen gingerbread house, protected by the church?
Not the kind of bedtime stories I would tell the kids
What did the group called blind faith, sing about?
Blind faith has always been around:
The Vikings had blind faith when they set out to conquer places they've never been before.
Columbus had blind faith when he set out to discover America
Astronauts have blind faith everytime they sit in one of those space missles.
We have blind faith everytime we flick on a light switch that the power will be their at the lights will come on.
Blind faith isn't hard to see unless we're trying to make it be.
Those examples you gave basing what faith is, is not blind faith.
For faith, has plenty of steps or clues leading up to each bold step forward and sometimes leaps of faith. I know from pioneering two new industries and broke 21 world records in my art field’ It was by bold faithful step that leads to odd leaps, clues with some some evidence.
One book claiming to have Universal truth and knowledge of the 99% unknown World and Universal is not faith, it's blind faith
I have no idea what you believe blind faith is but trust me all that I have entered is indeed blind faith. You don't know for certain that power will always come on when you hit that switch. Columbus wasn't sure what he would find when he sail off to discovery a new world.
Still you have the freedom to believe as you like.
Columbus was aware of the Vikings visit to the Americas and also through marco polo's about the chinese visit to many parts of the Americas At the time, most people believed the world was flat because of the bible and God's plan for 1500 years.
I built a museum display, featuring Columbus visit to the Americas. He was the First to bring Christianity, piracy, gold rush and European slavery.
It is admirable that you are revealing history not taught in public schools years ago with your museum but history in the school books I was taught under clearly portrayed Columbus as taking a gamble on this quest of his which wasn't actually to find America but rather to find a shortcut to a point I have now forgotten.
Dear me. Still defending your irrational beliefs by accusing everyone of having blind faith in something they have seen happen every day happening today as being the same thing as gambling that you have chosen the correct Invisible Super Being, I see.
Why can't you see this just causes a fight?
The fact that you prefer not to do any research outside of what you were taught in school doesn't really constitute much of an argument for anything. Does it?
Columbus was looking for a shorter trade route to the far east. He was gambling on making a killing in that trade market because knowledge was jealousy guarded at that time.
Still is in some parts of the world I gather.
In some strange way I'm guessing you provide hope for other people in that they are so glad they are not you.
I think for anyone to have any religious belief today will have to involve a certain level of blind faith. For people living centuries ago, before scientific discoveries showed the world to be billions of years old or before the science of evolution proved our true origins, then belief in the local deity would have been the only option. When everyone believed in the same thing, and there was no scientific understanding then religious belief would have seemed logical.
Now, this is no longer the case. If people want to maintain their religious beliefs today, they will have either to incorporate scientific evidence into their religious view of the world, or else to deny it altogether. Some Christians, such as those in the Church of England manage to accept the evidence of evolution and of the real age of the universe alongside their beliefs about Christ. Other more fundamentalist Christian sects, especially those in the United States, have chosen to turn their backs upon science and to instead believe in their own creation stories, which have no basis in fact.
In Europe, such Christian fundamentalism thankfully does not have a hold upon the public imagination. Recent figures show European countries to have largely lost their traditional beliefs. In the UK, only 35% of people believe in some form of deity, in Sweden it is 22% and in Estonia, it is only 16% Religious fundamentalism in Europe now is more likely to be thought of as belonging to Islam, whereas in the USA is seems more evident from the Christian population. Personally I cannot understand either way of thinking. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but to pretend that the discoveries of science have never been made makes evident that blind faith is necessary for modern believers.
Welcome to the forum, it looks like your thought a lot of this out.
qwark can I put you down for no. 1?
Muldanian , a maybe
@Muldanian, a good, logical history lesson. Well-presented for the most part.
Many American Christians, you say, "...instead believe in their own creation stories, which have no basis in fact." Zero basis? The Bible is not zero fact. So, there is a basis in fact. This may be a disputed fact, or a misinterpreted fact, but it is still a fact. The fanatical believers (fundamentalists) are not completely delusional, only partially so. True, they ignore science and accordingly court delusion, but their delusion is based on biblical fact.
Now, interpretation is a slippery slope, if there ever was one. If biblical interpretation is clearly ignoring reality, one would be delusional to continue following it. Oh well! Some call this "blind faith," but it is only "blind belief." There's no such thing as "blind faith." And most of the so-called "faithful" have never tasted true "faith" (from where all miracles are possible).
It was revealed to Martin Luther that the just shall live by faith rather then works. Before that love for God was shown through works and good deeds. The scripture does say, "we walk by faith and not by sight."
.... for we are walking by faith, not by sight.
I don't think Martin Luther was around when those words were uttered. I hope I have helped you.
Your brain envision pictures before you speak your words
How can words or faith come before your vision?
True "faith" is 100% confidence. It is perfect, without any shred of skepticism (doubt). It exists only in the discontinuity-bound realm of creation. This is outside the space-time continuum, and superior to it.
It is not oblivious to the details of reality, but has complete control over those details. That's how miracles are possible. Achieving such a state, though, is difficult for most humans, because they are so attached to their doubts. That's why miracles seem to be so rare. They don't have to be, though.
You offer so much to challenge!
"Faith," to me, is 100% confidence. It is transcendent and perfect. It contains no hint of doubt whatsoever."
There are 2 kinds of "faith."
1. faith based upon empirical proof i.e. "On flat ground I have "faith" the earth will meet my every step." "100% confidence."
2. faith based 100% on "hope" (religious faith) i.e. "I have faith in god." "100% confidence??"
You mention "miracles." I speak English. Which connotation of the word "miracle" do you have ref to? If you speak of "miracle" as it relates to a supernatural'god," how can you have "confidence" in that which is metaphysical in nature?
Pls provide an example of the kind of "miracle" you refer to.
"The Bible is not zero fact. So, there is a basis in fact. This may be a disputed fact, or a misinterpreted fact, but it is still a fact."
That is "factually" an absolutely nonsensical sentence. "Fact cannot be: " disputed fact, or a misinterpreted fact."
"Fact" is that which actually is. It is knowledge of information based upon actual occurrences.
I am very curious about this: "I also enjoy spiritual things discussed rationally." Pls give me an example of this.
"Only through spiritual concerns can we hope to understand what is beyond reality and superior to it." What may I ask, do you mean by this statement and how would you know?
I'm not going to go thru your irrational and confusing comments and question each. There are too many of them.
Not Martin Luther King, Jr., Martin Luther
Martin Luther (November 10, 1483 - February 18, 1546) was a Christian theologian and Augustinian monk whose teachings inspired the Protestant Reformation and deeply influenced the doctrines of Protestant and other Christian traditions.
I love history, too. As well as science, logic and mathematics. I also enjoy spiritual things discussed rationally.
Could it be that there is no such thing as "Blind Faith?" Could it be that "blind faith" is an oxymoron? Let me explain.
"Faith," to me, is 100% confidence. It is transcendent and perfect. It contains no hint of doubt whatsoever. It exists only in the timeless (discontinuous) realm of creation. This is the state one needs to perform miracles. It is the true, immortal self awakened, as Peter was when he stepped out of his storm-tossed boat onto the Sea of Galilee to walk a moment with his master--before skepticism stepped in.
Such a state is not blind. It is unreasonable, yes, but never blind.
"Blind belief" is a different story. Too many believe things blindly and without understanding. This leads to confusion and tragedy.
"Blindness" is a form of "delusion." It ignores or is incapable of seeing reality. Too many of the religious live in this kind of delusion. The suicide bomber is one example. "Creation science" is another form of delusion or blindness. Let's face it: science has the monopoly on understanding physical reality. Only through spiritual concerns can we hope to understand what is beyond reality and superior to it.
Miracles require "faith" and perfect humility. Anyone with arrogance (ego) won't get to first base on this. Anyone with a shred of skepticism (doubt) will also fail completely.
I'm glad you said it is your own personal definition as that is not anything remotely defined as faith.
They all live in that kind of delusion.
I like most of what you said, but I'm not sure I agree that miracles require faith, unless you're saying you know a human that can perform miracles. There are quite a few stories of people of no faith changing their minds on the subject due to some thing miraculous happening.
Francis of Assissi for one. If I've read the story of him correctly. The apostle Paul is probably the most famous conversion to the Christian faith, but you may argue his existence. I don't know exactly how much of the scriptures you might find bogus. I could probably name some others, with a little thought.
Yes, perhaps someone not over a thousand years ago.
modern times. Hmm. That's going to be a tough one.
Miraculous conversion, obviously has to have been on the news, corroborated by the scientific community, documented on video, and reproducible in the lab. who wouldn't want the movie rights to that one. I'm going to put my thinking cap on. It might take a while.LOL. Who knows, stranger things have happened. You're a funny guy.you make doubting Thomas look gullible.
I'm sure that over the many years and billions of people, you probably will find one or two. Like you say, stranger things have happened.
wow I'm glad you conceded that point. Very magnanimous of you, because I'm pretty sure there was no way I was going to find an example, meeting that criteria. But you already knew that.
That should certainly help you when deciding on your next claim.
Teeheehee. At last with you. Who knew you were going to ask for a miracle. Just curious, and I'm not setting you up to come back with anything. Is there anything you believe is possible that you don't have proof for?
Yes, that some day, myths and superstitions will be well understood by all.
I look forward to that. Although we'll all have to agree on what is myth and superstition. I just see too many unanswered questions for anyone on either side of this issue to take a leap of faith just yet.
Let me get my war math book out. Ok…
"Blindness" is a form of "delusion." It ignores or is incapable of seeing reality. Too many of the religious live in this kind of delusion. The suicide bomber is one example.
Castle- About 14% deaths were suicide bombers /mainly caused for survival of love ones. The suicide death rate around the world is higher than all the terror, murder and wars combined, caused mainly due to unloved people
Over One Million Iraqi Deaths caused by US Occupation (mostly families) Not one Iraqi person has been proven to kill a single American on USA soil.
77 can you tell me? is it not absolutely blindness that Americans had faith in their leaders, as the people were lead to believe their actions were in total self defense?
I vote for no 1.
I do believe in a greater force that is present in all things not to sound hooey.
I used to be a Catholic, and then protestant but I am deeply saddened by what has come of religion.
Your right about the blind faith. Twisted at that.
I especially like the "Since I believe in Jesus I am going to heaven and if you don't you will burn in hell. I am also going to twist Jesus teachings to mean that I should be cruel and uncaring toward the poor, and support free market principles in order to gain more wealth for myself". That is what a lot of so called Christians sound like lately. Mean,angry, indifferent, materialistic.
A belief in God is supposed to be about love and the bible wasn't a literal historical piece rather a guide to the teachings of God about the state of our soul. Rather than focus on loving thy neighbor and enlightening our selves it used to argue that we used to ride around on dinos. If God exists he gave us our smarts too.
This is for the people who will try to tell me that Jesus wanted us to have money and would be against paying taxes that support greater good and social justice, his teachings do not mention these things but do advocate such principles-
He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God.
He who gives to the poor will lack nothing, but he who closes his eyes to them receives many curses.
Learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow.
If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
I think Jesus was a very intellegent and spiritual man too, and one of the best teacher ever. It's just that there are too many wrong tranlations, like blind faith and I can't find it in the bible anyways.
Good read megs
No 1 , 6 votes
No. 2, 4 votes
Why would you think that this jesus was an intelligent and/or spritual man when you know ABSOLUTELY nothing about him except what you read in the terribly corrupted words and stories of the new testament?
There is practically nothing mentioned of this jesus in the great works of the history of Rome.
The writers of history are imperfect humans also and who knows how much they also "embellish" their interpretations of history? They certainly weren't there.
Yes, I don’t know of any a book that holds more contradiction than the bible. I wonder about some of the greatest men in History like Marx, Freud, Einstein Moses and Jesus who are all 5 Jews. In which who maybe had been sent to burn in Hell, for just being born Jewish, (such a wasted thought).
However, don’t throw out the baby with the dirty bath water
Still not belonging to any group I've learned a lot from taking notes from the best thoughts of many of the great men in history. I felt mystic about Jesus being strongly loving to everyone and that to me that is the most important behavior in the world, the Bible translations are too often wrong for me though.
Albert Einstein was NO Christian yet here is one of Einstein quotes
Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."
Yes. The operative word in that quote is "myth."
One may feel "mystic" about this "...jesus being strongly loving...but one can only "presume" he (if he existed) was that.
No one knows.
Only conjecture exists in "his" defense.
There is about as much crediblity in the ot and the nt as there is in the exploits of "Alice in Wonderland."
I think of the Bible more like Lord of the Rings, lots more of the killing action.
Cat and the Hat, I like for fun, Wizard of OZ many can learn from.
I keep reading all these posts about the contradictions in the Bible. Not sure what everyone is talking about. Could you name one that you find most glaring?
Some contradicictions bits from my Save Satan hub
1. Faith alone can save Satan, Satan believes in God and if he changes deeds, he can go to heaven, same for Hitler
2. Is Satan the root of all evil? Or is the root of all money? The Bible’s has 2000 discussion about money, that's 7X greater discussion than heaven and hell combined, mean wail Satan inventing job.
3. Satan stump Jesus, just the mention of dinosaurs, the prankster Satan is always burring dragon’s bones.
4. Mocking the baldness head of a bald headed priest.
5, our guilt, check out Jerkin for Jesus website by just thinking about Jesus or by photos of Jesus. Are they not Guilty of Gay sex?
6. Satan starts pondering on the web. Jesus quickly steps in to judge everyone, pray to save Satan he has a very curious spirit like the rest of us.
7. Satan introduces Jesus to hell and the folk in hell hate Jesus. Jesus tries to convince everybody that he’s suffering more than them.
8, Billions of the souls are being tortured for eternity only 144,000 are sealed to go to heaven. All because, God loves you. Why does Jesus specks more about hell than heaven?
9 Jesus threatens his second coming if Joe Plumber doesn’t repent. Unconditional love maybe.
10. Jesus was well known for his many magic tricks he performed in which people loved his act. But one day in Rome they crucified him for magic. Satan offered biological medicines, computers and planes, please forgive Satan for he has what you call "bad science".
11. Wars get started in the name of God and ends up being blamed on Satan. Most people are killed in the name of God greater than any other reason.
12. Satan knows what happens when you reject Jesus. He's lord God Almighty, you accept this or hate Jesus Shaman, in which many will say hate him, that can be found in just about every culture around the world.
13 The first origins was a talking snake, who offered Eve a healthy apple. God forced Adam and Eve to wear clothes, and then their children made more incestuous families, the bible wrote about some porn, rape, gay sex, under age sex perhaps along the way. They evolved to being over fruitful breeders, some wine or weed along the way It turn them on so much so, they had children and their Children had incest and that has been passed to some clergyman, of today
14. Satan gets accused for the majority of bad ghosts and demons. Why can't human be responsibility for their own free will.
15. People want to kill snakes, trolls, rats, bats, and stump on any bug. God can’t watch all the gay, Jews, atheist and most others faith's go to hell yet he is all powerful and could stop it. Satan wrote the satanic bible with a larger fan base, all within the kingdom of heaven and earth.
16. We are not allowed to beg or be tax free. We can't even love our parents most, Yet TV evangelist and churches can.
17 Money is the root of all evil, because the riches country in the world (per capita) Vatican said so.
18. What will Jesus do with all the atheists in the world? Some suggests dumping the entire atheist’s population in the swamp land in Florida. Force them to watch Holy Land shows three times a day in Orlando. It’s a museum that takes you 2000 years back in time, into the world of the Bible. ...Call it, Clash of the Fantasy Wars. For the very few atheists that survive suicide give them a lottery to heaven and forgive them by giving them a chance at 144.000 odds
19. Pray and love Satan to death, we are all beautiful in our own way, OR did God make everything perfect
Good points, all; but I was looking for contradictory quotes from the scriptures. I really can't answer that many post questions. A few quick thoughts though. No, Adam and Eve's children did not have incestuous relationships. God didn't condone the horrors in the Bible. That was the history of the nation of Israel. God was pretty disgusted with them throughout. Don't believe anything you see on Evangelist tv. I agree with you, Satan can be saved if he truly repented for the atrocities of his past. Don't worry about the atheists. God is Love. He'll love them to death in the end and they will learn to love him. OK, the last one might not be right, but anyone who choses God, even after their death, will probably have the opportunity to redeem themselves. You're a good person, I can see that from your posts. God is not an angry super being lording it over the world. The scriptures repeat, over and over, his desire for man to chose Him. He doesn't want anyone dragged along behind an angry follower.
Oh, and thanks a bunch. The fundamentalists will probably say I'll both in hell for some of that, but that's how I read what I find. I calls it likes I sees it.
People hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see.
I hear the music of love that penetrates my ears and I see kindness more than Religion yet never against anything.
Is Religion against anything?
I don't think so. Man causes trouble.Look at Jesus. Read his words. He was good, kind, loving. He said the two commandments that all law hinged on was Love God, Love your neighbor. If everyone followed that, we'd be all right. And if those who couldn't do the first would at least do the second, we'd still be all right. People get caught up in the Old Testament, but Jesus came to change the laws. I just try to go by the two he said were the most important.
You have no idea what this jesus said...
Tch tch !
Hey qwark.aren't you happy they came out with technology that will type what you say? I say that since it appears you think the ability to read is beyond the grasp of the average person. I actually read that.whether you believe it or not is your choice. Doesn't make you right. Nice to meet you though.
Nice to meet you too :
I meet the easily led who offer trite religious garble everyday.
Your just another of my forum friends who "fit-the-bill."
Your life and thoughts are filled with hopeful conjecture about the mythical supernatural.
Hey, far be it from me to try to convert your to "truth" and "logic."
If you are a happy fellow/woman and prefer to live in the "isles-of-the-blessed," and imagined "gods" bring you comfort and alleviate your fears, I'm all for it.
I left that world of "hope" and "wish' light years ago.
Be happy! :
Well now, how can I be happy when you post such a negative reply? I like you. If for no other reason than you picked a cute little name to go by. The guy posted a question to me. I answered as honestly as I know how. The spiritual realm and the physical realm are different. You'll never be able to resolve the one with the other. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, no matter how little we truly know of it. There is more that we don't know in this universe than we do. If we don't all keep searching in every direction we're going to miss out on something. I have an open mind. If there is ever proof that what I know to be true is wrong, I'll be the first to laugh at myself. I do it every day for some reason or another. Can't do it on this one though. I live in hope, and I hope you have a nice night. Later.
There was no attempt to insult in my remark.
I just respond honestly, thoughtfully, but bluntly.
I'm sure you are a very nice person.
I hope that one day you have an epiphany that will deliver you into the real and enlightening world of "logic and reason."
Best of luck to you. :
There is more to enlightenment than just logic and reason, there is acceptance too
Without a basis in logic and reason, the other millions of parts that make up your soul would be unbalance too
Acceptance dose not mean you have to be for anything, just not against it. Or you are just keep joining the problem and become a member of the endless fight Club that come with it.
Society or a relationship can operate harmoniously, mainly from within.
I seriously don't know what you have ref to???
"1. The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.
2. The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separable from the body at death, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state."
If you are refering to #1, this connotation of "soul" is as variable as there are numbers of people.
If you refer to #2, I can't consider it because it has no meaning for me other than it existing in the form of opinion. It is not a "logical" concept.
I am a pragmatic "realist" who "banks" on logic and reason.
Being always open minded but not to the point where my brains fall out. I try to simplify and understand everything too, just not so much as a hard-headed as a pragmatic approach, and atheists are often an example of that.
The Universe 99% unknown to us all. By using subjectivism or idealism, is like trying to put realism with a human Face on it, It dose not seem plausible, yet it is enough for the average Joe’s to survive on , in some sort of life style.
What is more extreme is being too one sided and always debater viscously claiming to know about the 99% unknowns through one book.
It’s so peaceful being in the middle, life and love are so beautiful
The Neat thing about this forum, you can be brave enough and express yourself freely.
I had an American partner who just finishes the world's largest 3D evolution display. Then afterwards we both built a major feature of 500 million years of evolution demo out of 2000 tons of sand, where 4 million people attended.
There was this near by Christian book store which had many books on Evolution being a lie. At our sand display, the store owner came over to my partner and had this all out screaming match for 15 minutes. When the Christian (Chris) was ready to punch my partner, I step in and Screamed!!! (mind you I never get angry)
STOP IT!!! ARE YOU BOTH CRAZY!!!
Partner- you were not there to see million and billion of years of evolution happen
Chris- you were not there to see mud man and rib woman happen
This was a family show!!!
Another funny thing along the fence was happening. One clown (real) was screaming, he was going to Sue this other clown (real) for using the same name Flipo.
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