After looking at all the Biblical evidence, studying most religions, philosophies, and cults, experiencing the joy and peace found in Christ, I've come to this conclusion: Christianity is the best step of faith! What do you think?
I think I would like to hear your reasoning and logic that made you decide between Christianity and all those other religions, philosophies and cults?
That would be more than a whole hubs worth. Maybe a worthy goal however.
Well, 'The Minstrell' most certainly did open up a can of worms by making those claims. It would be nice to see something. All I see so far is another empty faith based assertion.
I don't know that its a can of worms to share a conclusion that you have found. I am suggesting that if she goes down that road, a hub may be better for her personally, for the time and effort that would be put in. There are a lot of people out there that agree with her as well. Whole books are written on just portions of the evidences as to why. Its not an empty faith based assertion, and also, there is no amount of evidences that would work for many people here anyway.
Have you ever noticed how they apply extra hyper critical levels of evidences needed for just particular people in history for instance? There is a lack of consistency there.
It is when you haven't supported the conclusion with data and the conclusion has already been made by many more believers with no supporting data.
As it sits in it's current state, yes, it is a faith based assertion. That's why I asked for more data.
Not true. That would usually indicate no evidence has been presented.
I doubt that. It's usually only critical when people are adamant something or someone exists, yet there isn't anything to substantiate the existence.
Now, tell me "Father Of Lies" (That is your name, ya know) just why should we believe you...Son of Perdition and all that. If you want us to begin taking you seriously, call yourself Knowitall, so we will know who we're talking to. A bit more honest, too. See, I'm smiling.
You made a statement that is gonna engender questions and challenge.
If it's not worth the time it'd take ya to write a "hub," why bother to bring it up?
BAck up your belief brother!
I will do just that in my up and coming hubs.
Having read the entire Bible I vehemently disagree. Not only is Christ's Father (God) a brutal murdering slavery-condoning psychopath who plans on torturing people for eternity but Christ himself isn't perfect and only reinforces that image of his Father. Christ says that merely lusting after a woman is as sinful as adultery, adultery being an offense punishable by DEATH under Old Testament law.
In my opinion the peace and joy you've found is internally generated and you are externalizing it onto your own conception of Christ.
Whew! What an angry, twisted and confused response. Love and Blessings to you.
Have you read the Bible? There's nothing twisted about anything I said, it's all in line with scripture.
Yes I have read and STUDIED the bible. It's obvious that you have not studied the word of God to come up with false cruel information. The bible does not display God as a murderer. The bible states that God is loving, forrgiving, merciful and just. The bible does not state that God plans on torturing people for eternity. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. People choose hell instead of eternal life when they refuse to accept Jesus as their personal Savior. I hope you have a nice day.
Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Then this must be a metaphor.
Its amazing that how they see that God does not haggle or debate with sinners at all but destroys them and removes them out of his way, there is no fear of God in these sinners.
and when the judgment of god descends upon them they will still think God unfair.
imagine loving god destroys those who dont believe in him...loving or egoist?...god wanted puppet i guess...
Is this the same God who can't even feed the starving children, because He can't confront the corrupt people who are diverting the supplies? These corrupt people are sinners, aren't they?
It appears He would destroy them, and move them out of his way
Your delusion has, again, collapsed in on its own foolishness.
The Bible does not display God as a murderer? I'm curious as to what term you would use to describe God drowning everyone on the Earth in a horrific flood and God slaughtering the first born of Egypt. I suppose you could use the term genocide instead of murder.
"The bible states that God is loving, forrgiving, merciful and just."
But God's actions in the Bible dictate otherwise. Hitler can praise himself all he wants in Mein Kampf and make himself out to be a grand and wonderful leader, but that doesn't make it so.
"People choose hell instead of eternal life when they refuse to accept Jesus as their personal "
God owns, created and operates Hell and the Bible repeatedly states that it is God who sends people there. Jesus himself informs the disciples not to fear men who can harm the body but to fear God because God can throw them, body and soul, into Hell.
You need to re-read your Bible.
Titen, Murder is killing someone without a good reason. Murder is unjustified killing. God is a JUST God. You are twisting the biblical text by making it appear that God is evil and murders innocent people. These people were doing all sorts of evil things, and they had to be removed. It's quite obvious that you did not read the whole chapter or text. The people were drowned in the flood because of their evil and wicked ways. People are responsible for their own behavior and that applies for today also. If someone goes to hell, God is not the blame.
Too bad you don't live up to this sort of responsibility. Your own behavior says you are not responsible. Go figure.
and if she does not, so much more you do not.
Actually, you wouldn't have a clue as per usual. All you can do is twist things around to suit your belief.
I'm sorry to say, your Christianity religious philosophy was debunked over a half century ago. Too bad you didn't get the message. However, don't worry, I've debunked it again in a new hub.
So the first born of Egypt were all evil? What of the Amalekite infants that God commands the Israelites not to spare in 1st Samuel 15? What about all the babies and innocent children killed in the Flood? Not to mention all the innocent animals drowned in the Flood. So infants, puppies, kittens, their horrible deaths by drowning were all justified?
These are the words attributed to God:
"3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
The God of the Bible is not just a murderer he's a genocidal child murderer, no twisting of scripture required.
yah, so what.... The plan of God is toward humans. Animals are a necessary luxury but guess what... no soul or plan of salvation for animals. An animal is much like unsaved man, animated flesh just wandering about serving its own instincts. The amalekites by the time of your quote already have a history and it goes back to the time of the exodus. They pulled a few sneakies against gods people and God served them come-uppance. Of course you make these earlier times seem so civilized and so pristine that you couldn't for an instant realize that all the neighboring inhabitants did not have the restraints that Gods people had and they were always declaring war upon Gods people with only the intention of plunder and women. These earlier times before civilization were brutal and cruel. Think about it, before you stun us with your newfound conclusions that have been shot down before.
If you think God is a murderer and unjustly so, then i suggest you put some of your bible savy toward discovering the real reason God is having a millenial kingdom on earth and when you discover the answer to that you will find a God who is the opposite of what you foolishly think.
What I foolishly think happens to be supported by the Bible. You say that times were brutal and cruel, does that mean that God is allowed to brutal and cruel? Is God allowed to go around commanding genocide because the world was a brutal and cruel place? Is that really the best game plan for him to have rather than, oh I don't know, trying to create PEACE and promote LOVE?
"Think about it, before you stun us with your newfound conclusions that have been shot down before."
My conclusions are based upon the Bible itself so unless you plan on shooting down your own Holy Book you're kinda stuck. Oh wait, that's right, you don't care that God is a murderous genocidal killer.
"They pulled a few sneakies against gods people and God served them come-uppance."
So two wrongs make a right eh? God's allowed to get revenge for what the Amalekites did by sending the Israelites to kill their infants and, according to your own post, those unsaved people are like animated flesh just wandering around and are of no consequence. So those babies being killed by the Israelites are worthless in your opinion?
"If you think God is a murderer and unjustly so, then i suggest you put some of your bible savy toward discovering the real reason God is having a millenial kingdom on earth and when you discover the answer to that you will find a God who is the opposite of what you foolishly think."
Right, because God throwing a 1000 year long party somehow makes it okay that he endorses slavery and the murder of children. You might want to think logically before you respond.
i feel as though the way god has tested men in the old testiment is cruel. but thats just my opinion.
Women if Courage you are free to choose to believe what you want but that does not necessarily mean it is right,
People do not choose hell when they do not accept Jesus as there personal savior, that would imply that God is not just. It is ridiculous to suggest that God would ever allow a murdered to heaven because he believed in Jesus and keep a righteous man who acted in love in all things out.
Jesus was a teacher who sought to teach us to save our souls by teaching us how to act righteously. It is simply not enough to believe in Jesus, you must be righteous. That means acting with love for others not love for ourselves. So many Christians do not act that way which is why I am no longer a Christian but I assure you I am quite comfortable with the state of my soul
Like you say God is just and merciful and therefore it would be logical to say he will not send a soul that has been virtuous to hell and send a murderer to heaven simply because he believes in Jesus.
By using belief in Jesus as a justification for actions that were against Jesus' teachings you are not saving your soul rather you are giving into temptation to justify your mortal wants.
My own experience with Christianity is that it is ego driven and more focused on being right than it is on being kind loving and compassionate. Self righteousness and righteousness are not the same.
mega, Sorry, but I am unable to have a discussion with you. I noticed you have overlooked the word REPENT in my post. My reply stated that one has to repent and accept Jesus. I guess you are stating that the bible is not right. God's word is all truth. One either believe or not believe. Jesus became human to give his body as a sacrifice for our sins, and to save people from eternal death. Being a christian does not have anything to do with how another christian behaves. It's about one's own lifestyle and relationship with God. It's not worth dismissing God in your life because of other people behavior. I am sorry about your experience with Christianity. I can agree with you that self righteousness and righteousness is not the same. In case you are throwing a hint and falsely labeling me as a self righteousness christian, you are wrong about me. Love and blessing to you. I hope you have a nice day!
If you keep your mouth wide open and your eyes staring blankly at the ceiling for long enough all the ills of the world just go away - don't you find ?
In other words, if whatever it is you wish to discuss with WoC that does not align precisely with her belief system, then there isn't anything worth discussing.
And, this is supposed to be someone with an open mind.
This entire post lacks any form of knowledge, much less anything else.
God loves each and everyone of you, and so do I.
Mark, I have shared with you about the love of Jesus. Jesus layed down his own life to pay the debt for our sins. All you have to is Repent, Confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins, and Accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. You don't have to simply live, enjoy life, and die. You can have eternal life after death. I am showing love by sharing with you the true gospel of Salvation.The choice is all up to you.
Don't lie to me, especially considering I know better. WOW! Talk about arrogant, pretentious and just plain... um..huh oh nevermind. You're no longer worth the energy.
Cagsil, I am not lying. You are demonstrating what you are falsely accusing me of. I kindly invite you to read my post above. My response applies to you also. Love and Blessings!
No one can see the dirty spot on the back side of their
own knees, ...
What does it matter IF ; Every one else is looking at mine. And yours, and yours .. ...
And we all need to accept that.
Of course you. Simply because you refuse to live in reality. Reality and every ounce of knowable knowledge says you are.
If you'd read the Bible you'd know that Christ *is* God. Christ is God's incarnate form. I what way is Christ/God not perfect and holy? What's your example? Hard to follow how you are connecting Christ not being perfect and "Christ says that merely lusting after a woman is as sinful as adultery, adultery being an offense punishable by DEATH under Old Testament law." Explain?
Christ never claims to be God and there was much debate amongst the early Christian church as to whether Jesus was God himself or whether he was the son of God. Jesus says the Only way to the Father is through me, that wouldn't make sense if he and the Father were the same thing.
My point in bringing up the adultery related verse is to show that Jesus' teachings are not perfectly moral or good. In the Old testament adultery could get you the death penalty yet according to Christ the mere act of FANTASIZING about a married woman is tantamount to adultery. That teaching is immoral as the mere act of lust or fantasy should not be a sin let alone be equivalent of adultery. Jesus should not set up thought crime.
Thanks for your reply I'm glad you recognize that Jesus told us he is the Son of God. God's Son is God, just as God the Father is God.
Exodus 3:14: God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " Jesus put himself outside of his own time to make the same claim. John 8:56-59: "Before Abraham was born, I AM." Also, what does Paul call Jesus in Titus 2:13? and 2 Peter 1:1? Heb. 1:8 "But of the Son He (the Father) says, "Thy throne O God is forever and ever." Isaiah 9:6, Matt. 1:21-23 calls Jesus "Immanuel, which translated means "God with us."
The teaching about lust is to make a point that where sins start is not in the doing, but it is first premeditated; akin to premeditated murder being worse than "accidental" murder. Evil from our hearts "—that’s what defiles you. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, etc." (Matt 15) Evil is not just that of commission (or just when we get caught in the act), but there is evil premeditation, too, right?
The jesus teaching is not immoral. Until you know more please abstain from absolute statements. I will show you where you are wrong. Pay attention.
Yes in the OT you would die for COMPLETING the act of adultery.. Jesus said if in your heart you think about lust you are also guilty.
All things start in the heart. The heart is the seat of man passion. Remember that the jews did not differentiate between head and heart. The thoughts in the head stemmed from the heart. If you realize that jesus dealt with purity of thought, action and will you will realize that the God of the OT wanted the same thing
"truth in the inward parts" Psalms 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
And this is what God, in flesh, named jesus (this time round) was all about.
all who are called god/god man/spiritual masters have something in their teaching which are immortal and timeless...jesus was no exception...infact even jesus said that he didnt teach anything new...he repeated what other spiritual masters had already taught...
Making the act of fantasy or lust immoral IS itself immoral. Jesus also suggests in the same verses that you should cut off your body parts if they cause you to sin. Condemning and suppressing sexual thoughts and desires is different from condemning the actual act of adultery. We all have lust, we all have desire, why is that so wrong? Why is the son of God so interested in who we imagine having sex with?
John 14:13-14 Jesus stated: "And whatsoever ye ask in my name I do, that the Father may be glorified in the son. If ye ask any thing in my name, I will do it."
In reality, millions of people have made millions of requests in Jesus’ name and failed to receive satisfaction. This promise or prophecy has failed completely.
What is perfect about that? It's perfectly a lie, I guess.
You read the scripture.
Who was Jesus talking to when he said that?
His disciples. Duh!
Oh, I get it, this doesn't apply to the rest of us. Gotcha!
Because Christians pray, any many have referenced that verse as confirmation. I guess I should get the word out that they are wasting their time. Jesus never meant for them to pray for anything.
Hey getitrite. I pray and my prayers get answered. Maybe your problem is you don't get John 14:22 either.
Jee wiz ... you sure jump rom left field to right field don'tcha Prayer is incouraged and is Always answered. Sometimes the answer is NO. And are sometimes granted.
Promise of every prayer being granted can not be given to everyone. That would be kayos.
Hello Titen-Sxull, you have stated reading the entire Bible, yet I found your conviction regarding Jesus misleading if not confusing. The example you gave actually shows the merciful character of Jesus as He was the one who stopped stoning of an adulteress. He revealed the infinite love of our Father. I guess the Bible should be read in light of new testament to make more sense. The cultural and linguistics of ancient Israel makes it more difficult to grasp the meaning of books. However, one doesn't need to read the whole books of the Bible to know the most prominent teaching of it, it is love your neighbour as yourself, as God's Christ taught so. May God guides us all.
"The example you gave actually shows the merciful character of Jesus as He was the one who stopped stoning of an adulteress."
Not in the passage I'm talking about. I'm talking about a passage in Matthew 5 where Jesus suggests that lusting after a woman is the same as adultery and than goes on to say that you should pluck out your eyes if they cause you to sin. Jesus suggests in this same passage that sin will get you sent to Hell (duh) and that's why it's better for you to lose a part of your physical body. So clearly Jesus thinks that lusting after a woman is a sin that could get you sent to Hell and Hell, I'd argue, is worse than being stoned to death.
The passage you're talking about takes place in John, however it is worth noting that the story does not appear in the earliest manuscripts of John that we have and instead was added later.
Ohh I see. Adultery is one of the main reasons to cause degradation in a society at any level, as it breaks up the family units, which in turn deteriorate the relationship of its members. Furthermore, at personal level, when there's an adultery then someone is violating his/her partner's trust by breaking his/her promise. As you know, Mosaic law was given to Hebrew's before Christ to train them in righteousness. As adultery was an unrighteous act, so it was punishable, to keep the society pure (here please note that if a Jew did not want to be in covenant he/she could leave and live elsewhere as a gentile). Now hundreds of years passed on and God's son began to preach the truth, Jesus interpreted the Mosaic law in light of his wisdom, this was the truth revealed. In Matthew 5 Christ uses figurative language as in hell (which is the lake of fire: total destruction not a infinite tormenting place). Basically, he recommends us to suffer a little in order to get over our harmful desires, rather than perishing. Lusting over a woman is the starting point of adultery (ie get rid of the wickedness while on planning stage).
". Adultery is one of the main reasons to cause degradation in a society at any level, as it breaks up the family units, which in turn deteriorate the relationship of its members. "
Jesus isn't talking about the actual act of adultery here, he's talking about fantasizing about having sex with a married woman. Adultery is disruptive. Don't get me wrong here I wasn't trying to say that adultery was good, I'm saying that the act of fantasy should never be considered sin because that creates THOUGHT CRIME.
In Mosaic Law you would get stoned to death for committing adultery, that doesn't keep society pure it makes all of society murderers as they condone stoning someone to death for an act that is so far from worthy of death it isn't funny.
"In Matthew 5 Christ uses figurative language as in hell (which is the lake of fire: total destruction not a infinite tormenting place)."
Jesus isn't talking about a fire that ends. There are numerous passages in the Bible which state that Hell is eternal. There are others of course that annihilation like to use. While annihilationism makes the idea of Hell better it still makes God out to be evil.
Being burned forever in agony versus being burned for a little while in agony and then dying and being fully dead. I'm sure that you agree that being lit on fire would be excruciating and according to Revelations God plans on doing this to the vast majority of humanity, including magicians, liars, and unbelievers. Do those three sound worthy of being burned alive?
In the Mark 9 version Jesus mentions hell as a place where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched, sure sounds like it lasts a while doesn't it?
"Lusting over a woman is the starting point of adultery (ie get rid of the wickedness while on planning stage)."
I'll concede the point about cutting off your limbs likely being a metaphor. Here is the issue, if Jesus was just a philosopher, just a moral teacher, I wouldn't necessarily like the verses in question but I also wouldn't complain about them. But Jesus is supposed to be God and I expect better advice from God than telling people who believe the penalty for adultery should be death that merely thinking about a married woman could get them sent to Hell.
It is reading the Bible as the Word of God that causes issue, if it were not sold to the world as the word of some wise and loving God than I would see it as just another book of myth not worth my time to oppose.
"Being burned forever in agony versus being burned for a little while in agony and then dying and being fully dead."
"In the Mark 9 version Jesus mentions hell as a place where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched, sure sounds like it lasts a while doesn't it?"
Yes, it does sound like as it lasts, however, I would like you to remember when we die, we decay, turn to dust and that's what happens to our lifeless physical body. Nevertheless, in case of our souls there is no any physical aspect, cannot be, as soul is not a physical entity(it's like saying I'll fry a beam of light). Therefore, fire should only be understood in metaphorical sense, also please consider the following verses: (Jude 1:7, Matthew 13:30)
"But Jesus is supposed to be God and I expect better advice from God than telling people who believe the penalty for adultery should be death that merely thinking about a married woman could get them sent to Hell."
Jesus Christ never advised any sort of punishment, when he was asked he merely told, what should be done according to Mosaic law, that goes without saying he knew the outcome of the incident (That case of adulteress is totally wrong from Mosaic side of the law.[ie: there is no male adulterer brought in, no 2-3 witnesses coming forward] Btw, there is a mystery regarding what he was writing on the sand but it is off the topic). His mission was to enlighten people of their true selves, that's our Father's image, perfection.
"Jesus isn't talking about the actual act of adultery here, he's talking about fantasizing about having sex with a married woman."
Here, Jesus explains the root of the problem (not sin), sin is a noun which wasn't even used in Old Testament, it is a dogmatic teaching, just like eternal torture. Our master expound the cause of the wrongdoing here, if we nurture our corrupted side, then it result as a flaw. He teaches, to cut the root of problem. It is your consciousness, that will tell you whether it is good to fantasize on a person, if you can empathize it in your life relevantly.
"It is reading the Bible as the Word of God that causes issue, if it were not sold to the world as the word of some wise and loving God than I would see it as just another book of myth not worth my time to oppose."
66 Books of Bible are the written testimony of a group of people, who experienced something special with our Creator. They found it significant to let others know what has happened. But beware, do not take each word of the Bible as if God dictated it directly. If God wanted to write down a book, he would have done so(as in ten words). Or if Jesus wanted to write a perfect book (as Quran claims to be) he would have written himself. However, truth doesn't live in letters or books, you can only live it, as every circumstance has it's own rights and wrongs. Our greatest strength is love, and if we make it our compass, than Bible is a very useful tool (to me it's the most useful book). Hope you don't treat any book as an idol, nor discard it just because some people treats it that way. May God guides you.
"Nevertheless, in case of our souls there is no any physical aspect, cannot be, as soul is not a physical entity"
Weird, than why does Jesus say in Luke 12 that we should fear God because he can throw us body AND soul into Hell. It sure seems like it's being suggested that Hell is bad for both body AND soul.
"Jesus Christ never advised any sort of punishment"
Adultery is a sin. Jesus is suggesting that fantasizing about a married woman is like comitting adultery. So if thinking about a married woman is sinful than it can get you sent to Hell.
"But beware, do not take each word of the Bible as if God dictated it directly."
But this is exactly what many people do and there are passages in the Bible that tell them to do this. The Apostle Paul claims that all scripture is inspired by God. Whether or not God actually dictated it is irrelevant, it doesn't change the fact that the God depicted within the pages is an evil genocidal tyrant. There are a handful of wise passages and teachings but if in order to get to them I have to trudge through stories of a supposedly good God killing first born and impregnating virgins I don't see how its worth it.
Hello Titen-Sxull, you wrote:
"But this is exactly what many people do and there are passages in the Bible that tell them to do this. The Apostle Paul claims that all scripture is inspired by God."
Many people doing something don't really mean it is right or wrong, however apostle Paul's claim should be taken into account what he considers as scripture (ie part of O.T, N.T which was being written in his time, both or parts of it?). As I have written before, human's have a divine side, which is taken after our Father in heaven, and that part of us guides us in truth. Bible is a collection of books, some of them has not 66 books but more (orthodox or catholic churches include more books in their Bible). Idolization of books are not recommended as idolization is contrary to our Father's will.
"There are a handful of wise passages and teachings but if in order to get to them I have to trudge through stories of a supposedly good God killing first born and impregnating virgins I don't see how its worth it."
Christ elucidated the law and other scripture. Therefore us, who differ in lightyears from the culture, for whom these books were written for cannot possible grasp %100 why some obscurities were written or commanded (I'm not even sure if we can translate some words accurately, let alone comprehend those). However, the tyrannical god you stated might have ordered such savage orders because those people could have been belonged to half human-half angelic hybrids of nephilim, who were real monsters, yes the very same monsters that we find in mythology (also regarding giants, you can search for their archeological records).
Think of it, we don't know even who kill JFK, and summaries of events which took thousands of years ago is to remain remote and dark whether we like it or not. It all boils down, if you trust the source according to testimonies. Personally, I do, because tyranny or not, but Bible tend to depict events with honesty, rather than concealing them.
Great word caucasion79. Titan skull, I do not know what Bible you are reading? Yes, there were wars and people died. That's the history of the world when I last read about it. I also see the love of God flowing into our lives by giving us the chance to live and even criticize Him. As humans, we have lost our way and have come to a place of unthankfulness. God created the world and we give Him the f finger. That doesn't sound right.
Life doesn't require any knowledge of a god, to be understood.
Life doesn't require any knowledge of a god, to be lived.
Therefore, no god required.
Yeah, but do you know what the punishment is for blasphemy? Boy that's a whole lotta love!
I don't think we owe any gratitude to a figment of ones imagination. That would be delusional and absurd.
I'm using the same Bible everyone else does the difference is I've applied logic and morality to it. It's nice that God supposedly loves us, of course I reject any offering of love from a child murderer who plans on burning the majority of humanity in a fiery lake in agony for eternity especially when there is no evidence of that God ... but perhaps my standards are too high
You have a right to your step of faith. Titan skull, I would like to know what you base your moral system on. Where is it sourced? Also, is it truly logic? I thought logic is logical. The cause and effect argument along with intelligent design logically points to only one conclusion: God exists. I really don't have enough faith to be an atheist. Nothing didn't produce something. Your argument is very weak, Actually, all your arguments (cagsil, getitrite) are very weak.
It's just anger. That's another question to ask. Why are you so angry? Whatever. You don't have to answer this if you don't want to. Actually, you don't have to answer any of it if you don't want to. Talk to God. Your beef is with Him. Oh yeah, you don't believe he exists.
I base my morals on empathy, reason and the social mores and traditions of the society I was raised in (as does most everyone else).
The cause and effect arguments states only that there must be a first cause however that cause must than itself have a cause and so on. The argument falls victim to infinite regress. Even if it didn't devolve into infinite regress it would only prove that there was a first cause, it would not prove WHAT the first cause was and it certainly wouldn't prove the Christian God who formed the Universe in seven days.
Intelligent Design is just a re-branding of creationism and has been disproved, discredited and debunked. There is no evidence that life or bio-diversity were caused by a deity.
I find it funny that you're claiming I'm angry when we're conversing through text. How exactly are you qualified to make such assertions about my emotional state over the internet? I was laughing when I typed my last response, note the emoticon. I find your ignorance about your own religion astoundingly amusing.
By the way, atheism requires no faith, just like I don't need faith to disbelieve in pixies, fairies, goblins and Unicorns (Unicorns are mentioned in the King James Bible btw
Yet you haven't the strength to answer any of the objections I have posed to your nonsense. So come on, since my argument is so weak, let's see you dismantle it.
This is typical of the believers delusional state. Asserting nonsense that doesn't go with reality.
In reality, you are the one with the very weak argument--in fact, you have no argument at all--merely ignorant childish whim...You must be very angry.
Your delusion collapsed right after you started this debate. You are just, simply, ignoring that fact.
I'm curious, are you unable to think about having your own set of morals, do you actually need a holy book to tell you how to act and behave?
Sorry, but it appears you're not able or willing to accept there may be more than one conclusion. Have you made up your mind already to dismiss outright any other alternatives to your personal conclusion?
Considering you have no argument at all, theirs are a huge improvement.
He never answers back. Where has he gone?
Aloha Beelzedad, Getitrite, and Titen Sxull,
How could there be anything before God? He started everything. He is the unmoved mover (Aristotle). The whole concept and reality of God puts him outside time because he created time. The universe is also continually expanding and running out of energy. All of these things are scientific fact. If it is expanding and running out of energy, then there had to be a starting point. Existing from eternity means it would have run out of energy a log time ago.
The earth's oxygen level, moon and earth gravitational interaction, carbon dioxide level, and gravity are all set at a very precise constant. If it was changed in the slightest, all life would cease to exist. To believe an intelligent designer, God, did not set this in place is hard for me to believe; especially when you take into account all the other 101 constants found in our environment and space. All of this could not come about from a random accident.
Intelligent design has not been debunked. Actually, the atheistic attempt at debunking the intelligent design argument, the multiple universe theory, is fraught with weaknesses. I don't know where you are getting your information.
It is a step of faith to be an atheist. You are believing that there is no God from a set of information that cannot give you complete certainty. You must cross that gap of uncertainty by faith.
Why is stealing and murder wrong in most cultures. Who said it was wrong? I believe God placed it our hearts. There is no other explanation for the mass uniformity when it comes to universal morals.Not that we opey it all the time.
I apologize for calling you guys angry. You are right, I cannot ascertain this by just reading electronically produced letters. Whatever the case, I still hold to my claim that everyone is living by faith when it comes to their philosophy of life. I just think Christianity has the best answer for all of us who sojourn on this little ship we call earth. Aloha.
The Minstrel wrote ,,
I apologize for calling you guys angry. You are right, I cannot ascertain this by just reading electronically produced letters. Whatever the case, I still hold to my claim that everyone is living by faith when it comes to their philosophy of life. I just think Christianity has the best answer for all of us who sojourn on this little ship we call earth. Aloha
- - - = = = =
Don't apologize for saying what Ya think, matter who Ya are or what Ya think.
As long as what ya say is is what ya think.
You can not logicaly have a satisfying conversatin with someone who has diferent logic than you do. If they are not listening.
IF they have been practicing their arguements for years; as most of the arguementive people on here have. given one Sock puttet name or another;
You are NOT going to win anyone over to your way of thinking.
You can "Think" that they are stupid, and they are going to tell you that you are ... Take it or leave it!
That is the way that it is. You are new here, they been getting ready for you or years. Welcome to hub pages.
That is just a faith based claim with no evidence.
"Outside time" is a meaningless concept.
No, the universe is not running out of energy, the energy is simply being dispersed throughout an ever expanding universe.
No, they were not "set" at a very precise constant, that is just the way physics works, one physical phenomenon has an effect on another physical phenomenon.
That is not true, all that would happen is that our universe would be slightly different proportional to the change in any given constant.
No, you believe in a god because of childhood religious indoctrination. Besides, you're so wrong about science, your conclusions are false.
Gods have not been shown to exist, your god or any other god.
Well, they certainly aren't making it up as they go along, unlike yourself.
Yet, another false belief.
Usually, due to the fact that believers have been indoctrinated into their faiths, they believe everything should be believed as opposed to carefully, logically, reasonably and critically thought out.
Simple, people understand that they wouldn't want themselves or their families robbed or murdered, hence they wouldn't do that to others, either. This isn't rocket science.
Each individual who comes to the same conclusion I mentioned above.
Yes there is, it's called evolution. We evolved our morals.
Faith is all that believers know, they do not know about thinking processes due to their religious indoctrinations.
Yet, the history of Christianity proves you wrong. Aloha!
You are flat out wrong. Science supports the existence of God!
Whatever the case, you have taken your step of faith on what you believe.
Aloha my friend. I'm hitting the surf, which by the way, I thank God for.
The Ministrel, I love your responses! I hope you enjoy the surfing. Be careful.
The creator God is the only god who has reached out to mankind (through the incarnation, death and resurrection of Christ). Worldly gods expect mankind to first reach out.
Minstrel, while anyone can appreciate the value of joy/peace, my question to you --and other 'believers' is this: how real is that joy/peace, beyond the momentary emotion or lead-in emotion of an upcoming Sunday session. If you have peace/joy that surpasses understanding, why the constant necessity (crutch) of Christianity and the Bible?
Christianity is documented --its own documents state-- the cult formed from paganism, by pagan influenced roman society, surrounding the work of a single individual on behalf of all humanity. They turned that individual into a god, when he himself requested --no, commanded-- them not to.
Second, not one Christian minister, in my 40 odd years on this planet, has actually taught faith. In fact they are quite versed in teaching of or about faith but never actually teach faith by their own admission and lack of fruit. My guess if they did, they would not have mega churches and mega bucks-- they would actually have, as the documents proclaim, all things in common.
So, my conclusion would be Christianity is pretending to be real peace/joy when its members have such a desire to be "anointed" (literal translation of Christ). There is no "power" in Christianity, no spirit, only words remembered, recited, replayed and relished by those who worship books, words and men.
I find it odd, that even though the Christian documents proclaim all things made by the word (ruach) they forget those words (ruach) came from Creators mouth. So, which is greater, the one who is and made all things --that is Creation-- or the offspring/return of those words?
If that is the best faith for you then thats great!
yes it is the best faith since it leads us to the Lord Jesus Christ
"Best step of faith" for you PERSONALLY, or for everyone in general? Because I think that pork is the best of all the meats, but I'm certainly not asking or expecting anyone else to concur with me. I've found too many inaccuracies of historic/factual/scientific value in the Bible to put any stock in the notion that it managed to get its theologies correct. Personally, I've found Buddhists and Taoist thought and practitioners to be infinitely more peaceful, calming, and comforting than anything coming out of Christianity.
Man who failed to save his own backside is going to be savior of 6.8 billion humans (not counting other species) ? I agree.
He chose to "not save his own backside", then showed how he conquered death and the grave, as the story goes. I think knowing all the details of the story help.
I agree, that Christianity is the best choice for what explains the universe as we know it, history, and the ongoing actions we see of humanity. It also allows for the expression of such, without needing to put others down, and allows for living in peace among each other no matter what the worldview.
It also is among the most moral worldviews, for if all followed the teachings of Jesus, the world would undeniably be a much better place.
oceansnsunsets, I can agree with your response.
That would most certainly be the case, if Christianity hadn't distorted or put Jesus' original teachings out of context within the bible.
That depends on how you are defining Christianity. Many like to define it according to the RCC. Especially during the times of the Crusades. If that is how it is defined, then its easy to ignore the actual teaching of Jesus and run with whole new ideas, a whole other worldview , in my opinion.
Keeping to the basics, the teachings of Jesus is something that a huge amount of Christians world over believe in, separate from what the Pope and his church believes. I agree, if that is what you are referring to regarding distortions. I think a lot of people mean very well in that religion, but its so far from the gospels by now its a turn off from the main message of Jesus. The simple hopeful message, that gives light and life and hope.
Hence all the wars presumably? LOLOLOL
"It also is among the most moral worldviews,..."
Funny you should say that. Just today; someone calling themself a Bishop, tried to threaten me and my job to get what he wanted. Christianity was great until men got a hold of it!
Christianity teaches Repentance and about the free gift of Salvation through Jesus Christ.
Christianity is the best step of faith out of all the steps of faith!
C- If every religion thinks they have the best steps of faith to God.
I can only imagine all religion stepping on each others toes the whole righteous way
Cagsil, Why is it wrong? I am sure your response will be quite interesting.
You are to be your own authority, that means you control your thoughts, your actions and you hold yourself accountable. It's sad that you must "repent" for a "salvation" you can never prove to yourself to receive.
Cagsil, You seem to be your own God, setting your own morals to live by. I control my thoughts by choosing to believe in the true living God. This is how I hold myself accountable. No, it's not sad that I have repented for my sins and have recieved the free gift of Salvation. Jesus is the Joy of my Salvation and this is all the proof I need.
I have to respectfully disagree WOC. Am I right in thinking that you believe everyone who repents of their sins gets a passage to heaven? Just because you say 'sorry' for doing something bad doesn't mean you've automatically been forgiven, so who says you've recieved the 'free gift of salvation'? God wasn't so forgiving in Noah's day, when he put everyone to death without even giving them the option - allegedly - that's if you believe the story, so why should it be any different now?
I've done some stuff in my life that I'm not proud of, and I'm sure that in the eyes of the Almighty I'm a proper 'sinner', but even if I was to say 'sorry til the day I die, and vow never to make the same mistakes again, I couldn't possibly be so presumptuous to believe I've been forgiven and have the 'salvation' you speak of. That's arrogance of the highest form in my opionion.
lucieanne, One have to repent of their sins and accept Jesus Christ. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son so that anyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life." ( John 3:16) "If you confess with your mouth, " Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, You will be saved." ( Romans 10:19) These scriptures in the bible explains how I, along with others have recieved the free gift of Salvation. It seems that you have only read partial parts of the bible. The people who drowned in the flood were given an option to repent of their sins and wicked ways, but they refused. They was laughing and mocking at Noah just like some of the people here in these forums. They didn't believe God's word, but when the evidence of the flood arrive, it was too late for them. They had plenty of chances to get it right. Noah warned everyone about the flood. You have to repent and ask God to forgive you for yor sins, and you will be forgiven. I am the complete opposite of arrogance. Love and Blessings to you.
Setting my own morals? You're kidding right. Morals are derived by understanding one's conscience. The fact you fail to understand or realize that is part and parcel of the problem.
That's not control, it's a lack of knowledge in living life.
And you fail to do so? Ironically you don't know the difference.
You receive nothing because your god doesn't exist within the confines of reality and when dead your consciousness will cease to exist. Therefore, you'll know nothing then, just like now?
And, if Jesus bit you in a$$, I'm sure you would say thank you.
I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)
I would agree with the statement IF the current day modern 'Christians' actually adhered to the original teachings as passed by the original Christians.
To be a Christian today who adheres to a bastardized version of biblical texts and does not follow the teachings, either of the original version or the bastardized version is to be an ignorant fool.
Every time this type of statement is put on the religious forum, the poster clearly cements the notion in people's minds that he/she (the faithful believer and saved one) has no understanding of what Christianity really means.
The only way to have a snippet of understanding of what it is to experience Christianity, in it's true meaning, is to DO WHAT JESUS DID. Means - don't believe what people tell you, walk the talk. Quoting scriptures is a fruitless exercise in thinking you have knowledge. You have to do what Jesus did in order to experience Christ Consciousness. JESUS WON'T DO IT FOR YOU. Yet there is this false sense of having faith that 'he' will. That type of thinking will bite you on the bum sooner or later.
So more to address your statement - NO it's not currently the best step to take - having faith in a falsely learned/understood doctrine. Find a cult that teaches you more how to 'walk in the man's shoes' and doesn't impregnate you with believing without having the knowledge of experiencing real Christianity.
Hi Jewls. Just one of the reasons I like YA.
When Ya got something to say; Ya don't waste anybodys time getting to the point.
And there is no misunderstanding what Ya said.
How do you know that I'm not following Jesus? You make some pretty bold assertions.
Are you saying that every Christian on this planet is not following Jesus? How do you know this? You must be omniscient.
Just by making that statement above you have invalidated your own religion. A REAL Christian would not defile another religion to accommodate their own. As such you are not a REAL follower of Jesus. If he had emotions he's think it was insulting.
depends on what you are looking for ...it is like which is best song?...well depends on what you are looking for in song...is it lyrics , is it beat , is it music...if we view which has possibility of being the faith of future...well as einstein said it is Buddhism...if we need faith in future at first place...
if we want feel good effect like being saved ,of course it is Christianity...
if we want to live life in powerful way it is Islam...
if we want to live peacefully without being to much bothered about god's brutal ways...it is Hinduism...
so it depends...
Yes best phase for human species is yet to come where we would be more concerned about human well being in this very life then being concerned about someone which can not be seen and which divides human race into various tags...
Wow! A lot of responses. Why do I think it is the best step of faith? First, it's the only religion that deals with sin, guilt, shame, and condemnation in a complete and effective manner. Hinduism and the new age discounts sin, guilt, and condemnation as non-existent. Islam keeps you working and guessing until the day you die. Most of the cults make you work for salvation without assurance. Jesus dies for our sins once and for all. He gives you eternal life through faith alone. You can't earn it. It's too expensive. You just believe and receive it. John 3:16, John 5:24
And Christianity was debunked over a half century ago. I'm sorry you didn't get the message.
@minstrel ...i think you know nothing about hinduism...it is oldest and biggest in form of concepts...infact it has incarnation concept which automatically is result of sin or no sin ...based on that person gets incarnation...yes but hindu god is not as brutal ...HE believes in giving opportunity to re born...
Buddhism is more based on natural principals and so einstein believed it is faith of future
Islam believes in submission to god .PERIOD...so it give access to live life powerfully , since person can move on in life with full faith...
Christianity has wonderful person called christ...
What is best?...Well as i said it depends on what one wants...
In end all religions were meant to serve similar purposes but all religions have it negatives...
Sorry Cags to 'disagree' with you, but it was not Christianity that was debunked, it was the Romans that began to persecute the real christians then teach ridiculous loads of crap to control people through fear. They are still doing it and doing it very well as can be seen by these posts. Modern day Christianity is a false teaching.
might be...but there is never one path to destination....the premise itself is flawed...there is never one right way...that is not human nature and since religion was designed for human nature...we are bound to have multiple paths...
Religion wasn't designed for human nature, as my hub describes, it was designed for humans to fight against their own nature.
i tend to disagree with this...i think religion was designed with good intent by humans...but as human are designed to think that their way is applicable for all and has to be followed by all...fight began...
Good explanation pisean, I like that. Interesting there continue to be regular offsprings from Christian religions because members of the congregation disagree with their own doctrines, or most likely don't get on with other members of their congregation. Thinking their way is applicable for all - a new church is created. More and more separation and a further removal from the original teachings - Unity.
The Minstrel, I agree. Thanks for explaining to everyone the true purpose of this thread topic in your post above. Very well stated. God bless you!
What was the true purpose of this thread topic? Very well stated that Christianity is the only religion that deals with sin? This is not correct. And just belief doesn't get you to heaven, you have to transform yourself also. The sins of the father is mentioned so you don't repeat them. Unfortunately they are repeated time and time and time again.
Again I will state that to place this statement in a forum, or anywhere, is going against the doctrines of Christianity and incites separation which is not what Jesus wanted. You cannot say you follow and honor Jesus (who achieved Christ consciousness), as your savior and adhere to the statement.; Well you can, but that is being a hypocrite to your own beliefs.
By who? Man? Did they disprove the existence of an all knowing being. Then they must be omniscient. You must be omniscient. You must be a god!
@Jewels: I realize what you're say, but that's not what I was saying. But, thank you Jewels for letting others know what you know.
Its not a mystical statement. To debunk an omniscient being with certainty one must be omniscient or just giving an opinion. Since I know you and the debunkers are not omniscient, I conclude that you are just giving an opinion based on faith. Actually, it all comes down to our biased opinions based on experience. I have studied most of the world religions, cults, and philosophies, and found them all wanting in comparison to the simple and profound teachings of Jesus.
There is some truth to what you are saying, but not all modern day Christians are hypocrites. You make some pretty bold and extreme statements.
I have no qualms about the statements I made. Read more below to understand hypocracy in Christianity.
jewls, I believe there is some truth in what you are saying also, but I respectfully disagree when you say all Christians are hypocrites. I am not a pretender. All christians fail to perfectly live up to the standards the bible teaches. Making a mistake and failing to reach perfection in this life is not the same as being a hypocrite. Have a good day.
I didn't say all Christians were hypocrites, respectfully I was referring to the modern day Christians who have deviated from the original teachings. Every human is imperfect whether they are Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu or Christian, homosexual, bi-sexual, atheist..........everyone.
I was not speaking about humans making mistakes and failing to reach perfection in this life as being the same as being a hypocrite.
In order to understand what Christianity really is you need to go back to the source of it. The source of Christianity is not Jesus, it goes way back before that. Again, you need to understand your texts better so you can get a grasp of what Christ Consciousness really is. Then you can see that Jesus the man, who you adore with everything you have, achieved this state and is requesting you also have a go at it. But in order to do that, you first need to go inside yourself. What you are looking for is not external and until you realize that, and join the dots with the original teachings of Christianity, you are unfortunately being a hypocrite.
All humans are imperfect, that's what we do best - be imperfect!
Jewels, Sorry, I understand fully what Christianity is. Christianity is about believing that Jesus Christ died on the cross as payment for our sins and rose again. Secondly, it is about a relationship with God. " The source of the relationship is not Jesus?? Where did you get that from? The first source of course is Jesus Christ himself. Thank you, but I search within my self very regular. Once again, I am not a hypocrite. I will not go back in forth with you about what Christianity is. You have your own belief concerning this. I will agree to disagree with you. No hard feelings. Have a pleasant day.
I would like to learn more, but none can touch the carpenter from Nazareth.
if you start with that premise ...you would find no one can really touch christ but if you forget about christ and read from premise of how religion began , may be you would have another opinion...christ is very ordinary from where i see and from where you see , there was none like christ...may be truth lies in between...in general terms there are only two kind of religious head...one who where called god and another who were said to be chosen one by god...if we analyze each lives , christ life is not that extra ordinary...both in terms of miracles and in terms of achievements...by extra ordinary i mean extra ordinary is comparison to all those who were called god or chosen one...they have pretty similar lives and did many said miracles...only difference among all these has been buddha who called himself neither god , nor god sent and who had resoning power to make so many followers in single life span....without gaining political post , without using weapons ...
another person who is worth admiring is krishna ...he was complete hero and gita is one of most extraordinary book ever made ...
muhammad too had achieved lot in his life span...being illterate , his big achievement can be said as quran...
but having said that , i dont think all above including christ were divine...we have human nature of making legends and all stories are part of that...yes they all were great man of their era and tried to do what they felt was good for humanity as whole..but that is it...
Hey Friendly, I think you've missed something Christianity was created by man.
The love of God is real and good. Corrupt people can't change that.
You must not have studied very hard. In order to really understand a set of teachings you have to practice them. There is a major difference between an adept and one who just reads texts.
An adept will spend years of his/her life practicing the teachings set out in their sacred texts. And by doing so will experience amazing states of consciousness.
Christianity also has the ability to achieve high states of consciousness and there are a handful of people doing just that by means of meditation (yes Christians do use their third eye and meditate - "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light." (Matthew 6:22).
Buddhists (the real ones) spend their lifetime doing spiritual practices - they are reknowned for practicing what their doctrines teach.
There has been a lot of documented experiences via Hinduism and Taoism in modern times, eg Sri Aurobindo, The Mother, (originally of France), Paramahansa Yogananda, Sri Yukteswa.
The story of Jesus was that of an adept or an initiate into the teachings of Christianity (the real teachings). His story is to show other Christians what is required to be a real Christian and reach higher states of enlightenment and consciousness.
So to split religions into "mine is better than yours' takes a huge amount of scholarly knowledge in addition to having practiced the teachings of each of them to actually know the difference. If you are a practicing Christian (the real kind) you'd not have put up the forum post.
I've no doubt Yogananda and The Mother can crack a whip same as Jesus could. To make a competition of their achievements is really not a good move! In Hinduism this would be seen as a karmic debt (yes the equivalent of Sin in Christianity!)
Yes! yes! I agree completely. God is love, and religion of all kinds is good. It's just so sad that corrupt and evil people have the loudest voice in certain religions.
Very true Friendlyword. Will be great when the Pope in Rome cleans up the corruption in his home, what do you think.
I'd also love to see a regulation on the licenses given to people allowed to preach. There is devastating consequences to the actions of people parading as 'Gods preachers.' And these are Christian teachings. It is a major major catastrophe.
Additionally, to understand Christ consciousness a little more. Understand clearly that Jesus was a human being. As an adept who went through years of his life practicing his faith and going inside himself and meditating (yes he did go off to a desert every now and then). Jesus reached a state where he could align to Christ consciousness. As he did this (according to biblical texts - including the original teachings) he was given the title Jesus the Christ - and thereafter called Christ. He attained a state of Christ Consciousness. Jesus the man is now not a separate being out their in space with arms and legs, nor is he separate from Buddah and The Mother and other adepts. In order to reach such states of Consciousness there is a clear sense of unity - no separation, oneness.
Buddah is known to have done this. The Mother of Pondicherry (previously France) was known to have done this also.
To say Christ is going to get you to heaven just by you having faith is really a major risk you are taking. Modern day Christianity is the only religion I know of where it's followers are lead to believe that just by reading texts and yawning in their church they will get to heaven.
In actuality what is required is an expansion of the little mind into a larger sense of consciousness which is one of the biggest hurdles any adept faces on their path to their divinity (God). Modern day teachings of Christianity via the pulpit don't come close to addressing this major hiccup!
I think that as long as you feel good, respect others and spend quality time with your family it doesn't matter what religion you are. Its fun to follow a certain religion, but obviously most stuff is made up.
Where do you get it from that Christianity is the best step of faith? Which version of Christianity are we talking about here? Catholic? Jehovah's witness? Mormon? C of E?
Catholic preists (you know, the ones who are supposed to be setting the examples)are sexually abusing children
Jehovah's witnesses would rather let their children and loved ones die than allow them a blood transfusion
Mormons don't drink alcohol - although that's no big deal in comparison to the two above - even though the Jesus they all believe in DID drink wine.
The protestants cut bits out of the alleged 'holy' book to suit their own ends. ie; divorce, homosexuality, sex outside marriage.
The way I see it, Christianity is based on hypocricy and lies.
We have been given a life to live NOW. We are alive NOW. what's the point of living if we are just hanging around waiting to see what the next life brings?
There are no guarantees that there is an after-life, nobody has ever come back to tell us there is. Instead of arguing the toss about who's wrong or who's right, we should be concentrating on making THIS LIFE we have all been given the best we possibly can.
Loads of you have studied this book of fairy-tales and interpreted it the way you want.
To my mind it's a bit like reading your daily horroscope in the newspaper. You put your own take on it. If it's bad you ignore it, if it's good it brightens your day. But half an hour after you've read it you've forgotten it and get on with your life anyway. If something particularly bad happens that day, you suddenly remember that your horrorscope predicted it - but - it wont be applicable to everyone born under that star sign. someone else will have had a good day.
I'm just amazed that in this the 21st century, people still believe it. You talk about blind faith. 'There are none so 'blind' as those who WILL NOT see.
Get a life!
lucieanne and others
I am all for freedom of choice in choosing your step of faith. You've decided to believe in your philosophy of life. You've taken the step of faith to believe in living for NOW. I am just saying that I have chosen to believe in Jesus for the NOW and the FUTURE. I see no contradiction. I feel more alive than ever.
Thank you for sharing. Thank you all for sharing. All of us are trying to live the best life we can live here on earth. Absolute statements like the one I made in my opening question has raised the ire in many. However, if we are honest with ourselves, we all believe in our own absolute statements. We are all narrow minded when it comes to our views.
The question we need to ask ourselves is "who is right?" We all cannot be right. The Law of Non-Contradiction is immutable. Either what I am saying is completely false or you are right. We can't both be right.
Either Jesus was crazy, very evil, or the Son of God. He cannot be just a good teacher or a prophet. He cannot be a myth either because there were too many eyewitness historical accounts. And a myth could not keep the Christian church growing and expanding like it has for the last two thousand years. A lie could not produce this.
Again, thank you all for sharing.
You have every right to believe whatever you want - so do I. I don't try and persuade people to believe what I do, but I don't kill people in the name of my 'religion', and I don't let my children die in the name of my 'religion'.
Christianity has twisted the bible to suit its own ends. IF the bible is to be believed, Jesus (or whatever his true Hebrew name was) was not born on the 25th December, but some time during October, if the chronology of his death is to be believed. And how come Easter, the day HE died, is switched around every year to suit the Christian Calendar? I would have thought that you guys who place so much importance on this event would have come up with the exact day by now.
I don't have to ask the question 'Who is right' because to be perfectly frank, I don't care. No one will change your beliefs because your mind is closed. I keep an open mind. The 'God ' I believe in gave me the freedom to choose. I am not brainwashed by any particular 'Church', and I don't live in fear of eternal damnation.
The 'eyewitness accounts you speak of come from the new testament, and the first 'accounts' were written 300 years after the alleged death of Jesus, so how could they possibly be from eyewitnesses?
Have you ever heard of chinese whispers?
Quote; 'Send three and four pence, I'm going to a dance'
People believe because they WANT to believe, not because it's a proven fact, but because they need to cling to an ancient 2 millennia old text written by some really old guys who couldn't possibly forsee the way the world would evolve.
Instead of arguing about who's wrong or right, the population of this planet should start LISTENING and OBSERVING and begin to look after this beautiful world we've been put on. Materialism and greed are destroying the world, and a lot of it is based in your precious 'Christianity'.
We should agree to differ and get on with putting the main issues to rights.
You do care. That's why you write on the forums. For someone who doesn't care, you sure do write a lot.
I can't convince you to believe in what I am saying. I don't want to. I can share my opinion, though.
My writing does hit a cord in you. It makes you angry. Why, it's just an opinion?
Also, Jesus wouldn't condone all the killings done in his name. Actually, he would say that they were not his followers. Marx, Mao, Stalin, and other Atheists would applaud the work of their followers.
Oh yeah, in regards to the exact date thing, it's been proven using Johan Kepler's mathematical formula of the stars. Just watch the DVD The Bethlehem Star. A lawyer intrigued by the whole star occurrence did some research and came away with some startling finds. Whatever. It's up to you. Peace.
Why can't Jesus be just a good teacher or a prophet? He can also be a myth, that is more understandable actually. The dispute is not that he existed, the dispute is in the interpretation of what he taught.
There is a lot of symbology and mythology to Christianity. Walt Disney bases a lot of his stories on spiritual teachings. Spiritual teachings are about learning to cope with what life throws at you and then transcending the fallen human condition. Jesus's life was to help you see that you can go through hell and still hold onto your truth, and the only truth there is is Love. Christ Consciousness is pure love and nothing less than that. As a man, a normal human being, he achieved enlightenment as did many before him.
The question "who is right' is a ridiculous one and it's not 'ourselves' that needs to ask it but you. In terms of Christian doctrines - it is false to ask it outside your own self. This is not really about philosophy persee. It is a key teaching that runs through all religions (except modern day Christianity it seems!), and that is everything is within, not one thing is without. For you to seek validation as to what is right outside of your own self is clearly missing the point of what Christianity is. What in essence you are talking about is opinion and not real Truth.
Lies produce many false notes and the unawakened will listen to those notes for lifetimes blissfully unaware they are being conned.
I have just read these last few pages. Everyone should be proud for expressing themselves politely. And everyone had a valid point to make.
And Jewels deserves a standing ovation for expressing herself so eliquently. That just about sums it up.
Everyone should take a 5 minute timeout and look within ourselves.
Why do people believe that their GOD is being attacked when it is only their form of RELIGION that is bing questioned?
When we understand that ... be begin to see the truth in the message that Jewels shared with us.
Jerami, I really appreciate your comment, but Jewels message is not the full truth, especially when she commented that all Christians are hypocrites.
I don't think that there is such a thing as a FULL truth.
As humans we are incapable of determining Full truth.
And as humans I don't think we are capable of NOT being just a little hypocritical.
Concerning Christianity as we see it today ? And as it is practiced ?
Jesus said that a corrupt tree can not produce uncorrupted fruit. (OK I paraphrased this just a little)
I don't think that anyone can deny that the Church that the Roman Empire built was corrupted from its conception.
Just read the history of the first ten or so Popes!
The murders committed in the passing of that authority that came with being Pope. The numbers of illegitimate children belonging to these Popes.
This was not a religion sanctioned of God.
I believe that the teachings of Christ were grossly misrepresented.
I believe that these founding fathers in 326, while deciding what should be included into their canon left out a great portion of Jesus' message.
True, there was a reformation, and these NEW denominations did exclude many false practices, they did not pick up the message that had first been omitted.
This, in my opinion, is our greatest weakness.
The sad part is that our bibles that we hold so dear...
speaks of this coming to pass. Approx 240 years before organized religion reached its zenith, John received a message from the Lord prophesying this to happen.
John received this message just 40 years before that Hebrew Nation was erased off the face of the earth. The power of those holy people were scattered to the four winds.
And Jerusalem was given into the hands of the Gentiles for a time, times and half a time (1650 years) And then the Hebrew people started moving back into the area in mass numbers.
A Season later (119 years) the Hebrew Nation is officially re-established, that the final trumpet and final bowl judgment might be fulfilled.
In answer to your original statement about hypocrisy ?
We are ALL hypocrites. Every single human, We can't stop it,
it is what we do.
Jerami, I understand no one knows everything. Are you saying that not one person have ever spoken the FULL truth when replying in these forums? Thanks for sharing your views, but I have to disagree that everyone is hypocrites. That's like saying everyone is faking and not real about who they are. All is well. God bless you.
Jerami, I understand no one knows everything. Are you saying that not one person have ever spoken the FULL truth when replying in these forums?
= = = = = = = = =
People may express that which they preceive to be the whole truth. But is isn't the whole truth.
I have to disagree that everyone is hypocrites. That's like saying everyone is faking and not real about who they are.
- = - = - = - =
Is anyone not faking "themselves" out concerning who they (WE) really are? Until we can be 100% honest with ourselves about who we are, ... It is my opinion that I am a hypocrit with and to myself.
I also believe that this is a shared trait that is difficult for us to be honest with ourself about.
And YES .. All is well... And May God bless you too.
Hear hear Jeramai
'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone'
Again, in response to Woman of Courage, I didn't state that all Christians are hypocrites. I said modern day Christians who don't adhere to the original teachings are hypocrites. I responded to your previous statement above and so will not cover it twice.
And Jerami, what you stated about our honesty toward ourselves and we are our own hypocrites - I too say here here as lucieanne has.
Until people can peel off all the layers that are a facade and protection over the real self which is our more truthful self, we will continue to be hypocrites.
It is a shared trait and to say you don't have one is in itself the guise of sleepers and fools.
Most people do fake it because they seriously honestly don't know who they really are. Paradoxically people don't even know they are faking it because they are oblivious to the layers of protection they have put over themselves to function in the world. We are seriously deluded creatures.
Being REAL - I mean the real SELF is what is revealed after you see - really see the falseness you have created. And finding the real you never comes from an external source. The un-peeling comes from going inward and seeing the delusion. To thine own self be true.
Christianity is the only "religion" that offers the perfect, sinless sacrifice for our sins and that is in God's son, Jesus Christ!
I agree completely!
BUT ! We should not forget that mankind has been handling the religion aspect ever sense Gods Chosen people were scattered to the four winds.
Ever sense, then we have been playing it by ear.
I find it sick that someone can rejoyce in the face that sent here for the purpose or not, a man was beaten, flesh ripped apart, crucified, and died for YOUR sins. And your ok with that. Shouldnt you feel guilty? Shouldnt you feel guilty about the pain this man went through just so your sins dont stick to you? Or is it ok because it was done so long ago, and its not like you had to wittness it, and you know what? I think any God that requires a sacrafice is an evil malicious God. Why did he send someone down to die for him? Seems like he set the whole thing up...was it just for kicks? If hes god, what did he need the sacrifice for?
There have been some very good points shared. I may not agree with everyone, but that's what forums are for. My encouragement to you is to look at the life of Jesus found in the Bible. It's a well sourced document. Compare him with the rest of the spiritual and philosophical leaders out there. Don't compare the followers of Jesus with other religions or philosophies. Go to the founder. Every organization on the face of this earth, including the church, has rotten apples. However, every organization, including the church, has good apples. Whatever the case, go to the source of Christianity, Jesus, to find the truth, not the followers.
Lastly, when you read the Bible, just practice what he teaches you to do and see what happens. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Do not, however, enter this trial period with a jaundiced eye. Come in a spirit of humility. You will be blessed.
So I guess there are some good apples who are devil-worshippers.
So where is Jesus? So far his follwers have not been able to point to his location.
Can I not get the same effect from Falun Gong?
The Minstrel - the source of Christianity is not Jesus. You are being misinformed, terribly misinformed.
It is really sad to hear you or anyone say this because it is false.
And be very cautious reading the modern bible, it is also false. In the spirit of humility you will be blessed much much more by transforming your self just as Jesus did. But thankfully you don't have to hang on a cross physically to achieve what he did.
The Minstrel, Very well stated! The bible explains quite clearly that Jesus is the source of Christianity. The truth is right there in the word. God bless you.
I think you are right.
Jesus is not the sourse of christianity.
He attempted to revive the faith from where religion had burried it. Darn them Scribes and Pharisees!
Jesus brought that faith back from the dead for just a little while.
For this reason we should look to him and follow that mind set to the best of our ability.
But how do w know what that mind set was?
The bible doesn't explain that very well.
This I believe to be true. Jesus said that he was going to knock and if we open up to him he will come in and supper with us.
I take this to mean that we should look outside of our concious self and then we will see that Jesus is already within our subconcious self.
That aint right! ,,,, but kinda sorta.
I don't know where you are getting your information, but I think you are the one sorely mistaken. True Christianity is sourced in Christ. Without Jesus you have no Christianity.
Your reasoning based in ambiguous spirituality, maybe meaningful to you, but it leaves me scratching my head. I will write more later.
Jesus attained the state of Consciousness known as Christ Consciousness. Christianity was born.
In Greek - Christ = Christos 'anointed' (by God), is the translation of the Hebrew, Messiah, 'anointed'.
In esoteric Christianity, Jesus and Christ are considered two distinct beings.
-Christ, or Christ consciousness is an emanation of the Solar Logos
-Jesus, a human being, a master who incarnated the presence of Christ from age 30 to 33.
Solar Logos, although a Greek term, I understand, came from Egyptian teachings.
It's little wonder then that Christians are so adamant such a man existed and that the story of the Resurrection must have occurred. With the lack of any evidence that such a man did in fact exist coupled with the fact that once dead, people do not come back to life, the entire grounding and basis of Christianity is untenable.
A few people need to study some historiography. It's one thing to say Jesus did not exist because they studied the historical documentation and other evidences. It's another thing to not thoroughly study and come up with your own biased conclusions. The only view that is untenable is yours.
Jesus Christ is not some esoteric consciousness. He is a real person. Oh yeah, they go together too! Just ask two thousand years of history and changed lives.
I think you're getting it! Just to be clear - Jesus (who became Jesus Christ) attained the state of Christ Consciousness - so the man and the state of consciousness he reached is the key here. Whether he was real is still to be proven, but just say he is, his role was to show the ordinary man/woman what they have to do to reach their kingdom of heaven. Except you don't have to physically hang for it. (By the way there is esoteric symbology in the crucifixion, so whether it actually happened or not is irrelevant, it's the message behind that is important.)
The Minstrel - It is so important that your life be changed by his teachings. if that's what you were looking for.
But just a word of caution - it is against the doctrines of Christianity to incite separation, in this case by saying your religion is preferable to another. If Christianity is the biggest step of faith you have taken - that's great for you. But to say your religion is better, especially on a public forum - that's not good karma.
True.Not good Karma
Because most of the peope will not subscibe to Jesus as the be all and end all and the one and only way to God,
I hear the sincerity of your heart and your sensitivity to the things of the spirit. I do not desire to incite separation, but I desire to make a point. I do this not to make myself feel better because I stood up for what I believe in, or to make up for some lack of faith in my life. Sometimes we get intense because we really don't believe, and for some strange reason, speaking louder, or more bluntly, will make up for that weakness. I share because I really believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the savior of the world, the answer to the problem of death. His life and message stands out over all those who proclaimed that they have the answers to life's problems.
To believe in Him is good karma because you are not thrown into this endless cycle of reincarnation (samsara) or extinguished in an ambiguous nirvana, but the future becomes secure and clear. John 3:16 states "For God so love the world that he gave us his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life." You receive eternal life by faith and not by works. We can now live a Christ-like life out of thankfulness, not obligation. No other person has made it more clear and more peace-filled.
Yes, the church has not been perfect (downright evil at times), but it has also done some wonderful things (abolition of slavery in the US, the building of hospitals, the care of the poor, and other philanthropic pursuits) out of thankfulness to God. They are the true followers of Jesus!
The church cannot give one eternal life, only Jesus. I follow Him. He is not just a message, or a consciousness, or some ethereal idea, but a real person, alive and well, empowering and helping through His Spirit. Thank you for your concern and heart. I do not mean to destroy good karma, but to point people to the ultimate source of good karma.
Most people on earth are not aware of this Ultimate Karma; they must be able to live well enough without Yahweh Karma. Good thing they don't suffer worst from demonic fever
It is admirable to see someone who has so much faith in their religion. It is fruitless to continue a discussion with you because our understanding of the teachings are completely different.
One does not receive eternal life by faith, but who one becomes whole. Nirvana is not ambiguous - it is a state of consciousness akin to Christ Consciousness and it is achieved through solid practices as was done by Jesus. It is a state of wholeness - ie no polarity, no separation. At times you do need faith to continue with such an undertaking, cause lets face it, it's bloody hard at times. But it's more faith in one's ability to keep on with it.
It's interesting in your last paragraph that you point out that Jesus is a real person, alive and well and empowering through his Spirit. Yet to actually feel this you must do it through ethereal means and via a means of altered consciousness, that is beyond the normal one as experienced man to man.
Differentiating between a REAL human being and an ethereal one is necessary here. Jesus is dead. He does not take the form of a human being with a body. But you say he is alive. If he is alive in spirit then he is ethereal (non physical). Can you see that? To be able to see that, really see it, you are having an experience of altered or expanded consciousness. That's cool and gets you a few steps closer to achieving what Jesus did, and Buddah, and Yogananda and Sri Aurobindo and I'm pretty sure the Deli Lama can do that also. Angels will guide you but they can't do it for you. You live on a planet of free choice. To have it done for you takes away your free choice. It's touted in spiritual circles that free choice is a universal law. I've not been privy to the godly conversation where that legislation was passed!
But eternal life is not given to you on a platter by Jesus. Perhaps you are walking the steps of this man and being empowered because you are emulating him? If you are, maybe you could own it. Something to think about. I find it very disempowering to hear people say someone else does it for me. That removes you from the process and in many cases in life creates a victim mentality. Social workers thrive on victims by the way, gives them purpose.
Jesus is not doing it, you are doing it. Have the faith in yourself that you can achieve what he did, that's what he wanted you to see.
I can also feel your genuineness in what you believe and I'm sending you much heart. Good luck Minstrel and may your karmic balance sheet become balanced.
I agree pretty well with everything you are saying. You said are many cases in life creating a victim mentality. Social workers thrive on victims by the way, gives them purpose.
It also creates jobs for clergymen who put you on hold as God and he sort you out.
The mental illness bible has tripled in the last 40 years. It's easy enough to love Jesus as he was a loving person. Yet, if I were to love Jesus and serve the one and only first. Itcould not be possible to server myself first. In order to serve other people better. If I was serving JESUS first I would be neglecting and would not be able to navigate around most people on earth. I could not serve other people better because I am too busy over focusing on Jesus.
It's a refreshing feeling to hear someone with of flow of good sense rather than separating into arguing in which resolve less
There is a lot of sense in what you are saying. The work of Rudolph Steiner goes into detail about the Ahrimanic Agenda. Additionally there is much work on memes that help to understand more the danger of being blindly led into organizations. Not only religious organizations, but large corporations, family memes, there are even sporting memes. Mainly the crux to understand is the level of unconscious influence. You think you have a sense of self in these memes, until you learn that you do not. Everything was an influence of a subliminal nature - a learned pattern to get what you 'think you needed' in order to get by in the world.
The Ahrimanic agenda is, in short, one in which you are lead blindly with the belief that you are not lead blindly. Coke, McDonalds, and the drug industry are clear cut examples of this.
Castlepaloma, as you pointed out above, when you are serving another master - ie in the case of the current 'Christian' church, you are serving something outside of yourself. When you serve something outside, you can't serve yourself. This is a fundamental flaw in the teachings. Religious/spiritual teachings is all about finding your own core self and once you are able to strengthen this, your service to others, your ability to give is enormous. And it is also genuine. (The thing to understand is that you think you know yourself, but until you can clear the layers of conditioning by all the memes you've been influenced by, your real self is never seen.) Most people don't even know what a meme is, let alone know of their influence!
It is becoming a disturbing trend the amount of counselling and psychological assistance given to those within the christian cult, where the counsellors and 'psychologists' are not qualified and again serve the agenda of what is thought to be right within the beliefs of the church. Very dangerous practice.
You don't know Jesus. If you did, you wouldn't be self-serving. You criticize someone that you haven't even honestly sought or even seriously studied. It's evident by your comments. Your view of Christianity is focused primarily on the aberrations and political correctness; stuff you can hear in the main stream media, not Jesus and the good that is found within his path of life.
I have studied and practiced Buddhism, the New Age Movement, atheism, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, agnosticism, and Confucianism. I have only read and studied the other religions and cults. Again, they are all wanting in comparison to the Carpenter from Nazareth.
Whatever the case, my comments are neither here nor there when it comes to convincing you and others to believe in what I say. Truly, talk to Jesus yourself and ask him personally about all your questions. Or maybe your too proud to do even this. Whatever. It's up to you.
What if he asked you to talk to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Are you too proud to lower yourself to talking to the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Why? Yet you are asserting the same lunacy.
So could you please respond to, and dismantle this weak argument?
The flying spaghetti monster compared to Jesus. Let me see. Actually, I won't attempt to try to dismantle this one. It unravels on its own.
What's the difference, because it is not self-evident.
Both are imaginary mythical characters. Maybe a historical Jesus did exist, but the Jesus in the bible is purely the imagination of some ancient humans.
Your response is based on your nonsensical worldview, and your inability to deal with reality...on top of your rigid indoctrination. Your beliefs are absurd.
OK. Hey, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Aloha. Be at peace with your belief system.
Typical response from believers, when they have nothing to back up their nonsense. This statement is often made when believer's delusional nonsense has collapsed, and it is a subliminal way to try to put their illogical position on the same level with logic.
You just say that "we have to agree to disagree" with no evidence to support your position. What a cop-out. This is completely absurd. Aloha
Actually, nothing has collapsed and I am not delusional. The only person delusional is yourself.
There comes a point when debating someone leads no where. You have taken your step of faith. Be at peace.
Aloha my friend.
My brother’s a Pastor I grew studying in church, my Mother turned to an atheist. I traveled the world and found most human beings are not aware of Jesus and the one who opposes Jesus salvation will be demonized forever.
Even though I think everyone is God and not against anyone or thing. More people have been killed in the name of God than for any other reason in the History. Reason is mankind separting man and God's into super natural groups that never work together without endless fighting.
Being a lover not a fighter it's just not going to work out for me.
You coming Hawaii you really like nature like I do living here in Vancouver and in Belize as all animals love also. There is much to learn from this jelly fish as it immortal jellyfish that lived a 100 time longer than Genesis. Even that which appears to be imperfect in perfect world by the hands of a Yahweh God. The
These is how the Bible Imperfections translated of a jellyfish.
If, like jellyfish, we simply drift along with the culture we will never become men and women of God. It is easy prey. The man of God does not need a sting; he strives to be gentle. So, we see the get-up-and-go of the man of God. He is not a jellyfish, drifting along with the currents of the world. He is more like a dolphin, leaping over the waves; gliding through the water. He lives an active life: he flees, he pursues, he fights, and he takes hold
If, like jellyfish, we simply drift along with the culture we will never become men and women of God. The world around us is not pursuing righteousness or godliness or faith or love or endurance or gentleness
If I am a jellyfish and dolphin like too, I would be very happy being a of the two, naturally
I got the flying spaghetti monster up on top, a jellyfish, and a dolphin. Castlepaloma, be at peace. I'm going surfing. Aloha!
Never seen this spaghetti monster, many tales about it, in the atheist world.
Love those waves in Hawaii
Here today, gone to Mauii
I thought atheists don't believe in fairy tales? Sounds like something you can eat!
The waves are huge today. Thank you for your sharing. It was good to get everyone's point of view. Blessings on you!!!!!!!
Yes, there is a great divide in our thinking and spirituality. I do good works not out of achieving eternal life, but out of thankfulness for the free gift of eternal life given to me by faith. It's not a striving or a living out of a victim mentality, but actually a victorious mentality. Being thankful is not victimization.
On the other hand, The karmic cycle is a never ending cycle of futility that leaves you wondering when you will break out of it. It's slavery to an evil task master. This to me sounds more like victimization. It's a life of striving, stress, uncertainty, and borders on quasi fatalism. You are left to the fates, whoever they or it may be. Who or what decides when you can break into nirvana or final extinguishment into nothingness? It promotes self without any direction into eternity.
Could it be that you're deceived by the meme of the New Age Movement or Hinduism? You think you are the wise master of your own ship. Could it be that you are driving your ship into a reef? What are you basing your faith on?
Jesus stated, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Yes, it's pretty absolute. I know it raises the ire of many people. However, everyone else believes in their own absolute belief system absolutely! Narrow mindedness abounds in us all. The issue is this: what narrow minded belief system will I follow? Hopefully, the true one because all of them cannot be all right. The 'both and' system doesn't work in life. Either I look both ways before I cross the street of life, or I get hit by the bus of lies.
He is a real person and will return one day in bodily form. No one knows the day or time. However, he did come the first time and started a world wide movement with a bunch of fishermen and prostitutes in only three years of work. Yes, there have been abuses in the church (like every other organization on this earth), but there is also a pure stream of true followers of a real person, not a Christ consciousness.
Bless you Jewels on your quest for truth.
Thank you everyone for your comments; some were very passionate too! Aloha. It was good to get a feel for the forum community.
If you get a feel of me I will smack you really hard !
I just read somewhere about the pointlessness of life in Hawaii, seemed a little sad that the place was heaven on earth before christianity spoiled it.
Enjoy the surf, that at least is a bit of heaven remaining
My wife's Uncle is a priest. He is now retired and does counseling. H e is an extremely intelligent man. Loving, caring and a service to humankind.
Faith is one of those things that once one makes the leap, they see the world, indeed all existence, through "Holy" shaded glasses.
He knows I am an atheist. To him my faith that there is no god is as hard to realize as it is for me to wonder why he, such an intelligent man, can make such a huge leap of faith without even reason to back up why he holds his faith to be absolutely the final truth.
But I have simply come to overlook that as most people I know lay claim to a god.
People have to believe in something, and some of us have to believe in nothing.
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