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Judas Iscariot

  1. Dave Mathews profile image60
    Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago

    Why is Judas Iscariot viewed as being guilty of betrayal and judged a sinner by Catholics?

    Christianity and the church teaches that Almighty God is all knowing. Christianity and the church also teaches that God through Jesus forgives all sin not just this sin or that sin, but all sin is totally forgiven,so long as the sinner repents.

    It also teaches that Almighty God has pre-chosen pre-destined the lifestyle and the path we are to follow. 

    Yes we have free choice, but ultimately, eventually, so long as we continue to believe in God and want His love too, we return to God's chosen path for us.

    This being the case, God and Jesus as the son of God, already knew the man known as Judas, knew his character, knew that God had chosen Judas to be the one to help fulfill Scriptural Prophesy.

    Also this would mean that God and Jesus had already put into play their plan for Judas to be the one to reveal to the High Priest who Jesus was, and it would also mean that God and Jesus already knew that Judas would repent of his actions, by returning the 30 pieces of silver to the High Priest and that He would hang himself because of his feeling guilty for delivering up Jesus whom he knew to be innocent of any wrong doing.

    If God knew Judas heart and knew that He was the one chosen to help fufill Scriptural Prophesy,and knew that He had repented his actions, hwo can Catholics judge him guilty of any wrongdoing?

    As Jesus hangs on the cross He prays: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."  Would this prayer of forgiveness not include Judas?

    1. Jerami profile image78
      Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I agree completely !

        I've ask myself, why was it even necessary for Judas to identify Jesus or even reveal where Jesus was going to be that night?

        Jesus was well known around the synagogue as he not?

        Any one could have followed them to where they were going to spend the night and identified him to the soldiers.

        The only reason that I can see for it having to be Judas would have been for some kind of moral lesson

      1. Dave Mathews profile image60
        Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Scripture had to be fulfilled to the letter and according to scripture, Jesus would be handed over by one close to Him.

        1. Jerami profile image78
          Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I guess that I missed that prophesy, but take your word for it.
            That would make sence.
            Any way   Judas had no choice but to do what he did.

          1. Woman Of Courage profile image59
            Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, this prayer of forgiveness would include Judas.

          2. couturepopcafe profile image59
            couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I think this is where it starts to fall apart.  According to Scripture, we are all predestined.  But also according to Scripture, we have choices to make.  According to interpretation, the only choice we can make is the choice to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus as Saviour.

            1. couturepopcafe profile image59
              couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Additionally, why are only a certain amount of Jews going to Heaven?  Why, with a Creator who is passionately in love with his creations, would he intentionally leave millions of Jews to go to Hell?

              1. Jerami profile image78
                Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                To answer this last question.

                  Why does the farmer only pick the bestest, ripest, biggest, basket of fruit to take to market as a representation of what his crop is going to look like ....  IF .. the market buyes his fruit.   when he has a field full of fruit not ready to be picked?

                   The 144,000 are the "first fruit" unto the lord.

                   The rest of the field also goes to market.

                1. couturepopcafe profile image59
                  couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  So you're saying we all go but the 144,000 are the chosen?  The best?  Hmmm.  I'd never heard that.

                  1. Jerami profile image78
                    Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    That is the way that I have always understood it.
                    I remember when I was a kid. My grandfather was a cotton farmer.
                    Each year he picked a sack of cotton, took it to market, it was graded, and that is what he got paid per pound for every lb. of cotton that came off of his propety.

                       The quality of the first fruits is what the rest of the crop was graded by.
                       According to scripture there were 144,000 people that was presented to the Lord as the first fruits.
                       The rest of the crop goes to market when it is time. And will be compensated for according to the value of the first fruits.

                       That is the way that I understand it any way.

                  2. Dave Mathews profile image60
                    Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Every human has the same option be saved and end up in heaven through ones faith and belief in Jesus OR don't believe and end up in the Lake of Fire with Lucifer. It's that simple.

              2. Dave Mathews profile image60
                Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                The jewish people the Hebrews of the day crucified Jesus and denied Him by refusing to recognize Him as the true Messiah. They are still awaiting the day of His First arrival. If A Jewish person repents this decision and asks Jesus for forgiveness they will receive it.

                1. philzgrill profile image80
                  philzgrillposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Dave, where in the scripture did Judas ask for forgiveness for what he had done?

                  1. Dave Mathews profile image60
                    Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    See: MATTHEW:27:3

            2. Dave Mathews profile image60
              Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              It does not fall apart here. Ask and you're forgiven, don't ask and you are not. That is a simple option yet still an option.

              1. couturepopcafe profile image59
                couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yes.  This I understand.  But why create the option to begin with?  Why create the challenge, the task, the possibility of failure?

                1. philzgrill profile image80
                  philzgrillposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  great question.  i know that the scripture talks about free will, that we are not robots, that we have the choice of following God and His plan for our lives or not.  This discussion has headed toward the discussion of "freewill" and "predestination".  I guess the simple answer is the love between a man and his wife.  both have the ability to love one another, in other words, they are not robots that have no choice.  God gives us the ability to make our own decisions, and he will not interfere with them.

                  1. Dave Mathews profile image60
                    Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this



                    This is "MY" number one most important question to ask God when we are finally face to face. "Why did you permit man Free will, free choice?" Why not simply say I created you, to love me and so I could love you. God's love is unconditional as God is love, why could he not have created man the same, I mean we are created in His image, why not with His capacity to love free of conditions.

    2. kess profile image60
      kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      God the Father has already forgiven all, but those who are still ignorant will never know that so the condemnation which they heap upon themselves will remain...

      Judas is a good example, though he was sorry for his action his sorrow did not lead to him to repent...change the way he thinks.

      So is it with many here and now... though they are genuinely sorry for their action while in the flesh...nevertheless this sorrow must be with the knowledge of the Father otherwise it is useless to relieve the burden of Sin.

      1. Dave Mathews profile image60
        Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        On the contrary, Judas returns to the chief priest and returns the 30 pieces of silver paid him refusing to keep it knowing that he has handed over the Messisah an innocent man to the chief priest. See: Matthew: 27:3,6-10 Therefore we know that Judas repented his actions. Since The Father and Jesus had pre-selected Judas as the one to fulfill the scriptures, he cannot be held accountable.

        1. Greek One profile image78
          Greek Oneposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          why did he kill himself?

          1. Dave Mathews profile image60
            Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            conscience, but it makes no difference to the points I am expressing.

        2. kess profile image60
          kessposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          We have a different understanding of the term repent...note if Judas repentance was not the one that relieved him of the burden of Sin otherwise he would not have taken his own life....


          There is a repentance that frees one from the bondages of death.

          1. Dave Mathews profile image60
            Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Your statement has no relevence the fact is He did repent and only God can judge the trueness and sincereity not man.

            1. couturepopcafe profile image59
              couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I understand what you're saying, both kess and DM, but I agree with kess.  I believe in repentance of wrongdoing.  This is the repentance that sets us free but only if we are enlightened to the point of recognizing that we do not need to live our lives in guilt and misery.  We only have to set right our ways and our thinking.  Many people, Christians included, are 'saved', have repented, have even made physical amends for their wrongdoing, but they hold on to the guilt and misery.  So, in essence, they don't really believe at all.  If they did, they would 'feel' the relief.  I know this is a bit off track.

              1. Dave Mathews profile image60
                Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Please read MATTHEW: 27:3 King James Version of The Holy Bible your denial of repentance becomes mute.

                1. couturepopcafe profile image59
                  couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  As I said, I went a bit off track.  The argument of whether or not Judas repented is cleared up in Matthew.  I said I believe repentance is good for the soul.  But it is useless if we don't believe we can be changed by it.  Unfortunately, Judas didn't live long enough to be relieved of his shame.

                  1. Dave Mathews profile image60
                    Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    couturepopcafe: Since Jesus was and is God, and since Jesus died for the remission of all sin, and since Jesus asked forgiveness of all who sinned against Him at the time of His crucifixion I believe Judas is in heaven and you will see him there.

        3. couturepopcafe profile image59
          couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Hmmm.  Since we are all preselected for certain paths, none of us are accountable?  We are just made to do bad things (essentially) but then need to ask forgiveness for doing what we were made to do without our consent, knowledge, or power in any way?

          1. Dave Mathews profile image60
            Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Where did you get this nonsense from. Our paths are determined, but we have free will whether to follow or not. Eventually though we will reach the end of the path by whatever means and direction we follow the destination is the same.

            1. couturepopcafe profile image59
              couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I see and I agree.  Our paths are likely determined by our natural abilities and inclinations.  Where they come from is up to debate, whether one calls it God, consciousness, talent, genetics, or anything else. 

              I was trying to point to a possible flaw in the Christian thinking, with respect.  I agree our paths may be predetermined and we can certainly stray from that path and never meet our true potential.  I don't get how the Bible tells us we have free will to choose (which has nothing to do with our path or potential except when choosing that path to our potential) but sets us up for failure if we do not ask for forgiveness from Jesus, which according to Scripture is the only way to get to the Father.

      2. couturepopcafe profile image59
        couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        According to Scripture, God the Father has not forgiven all.  Only those who are covered by the Blood have sins which are invisible to Him.  He has not forgiven, He has put in place an option, sort of like the healthcare option.  If you buy it, you don't go to jail.

        1. Dave Mathews profile image60
          Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this



          Scripture tells us that Jesus died for the remission of sin, not just one or two, not just selected ones but all. True one must ask Jesus for forgiveness but this is the only pre-requisite.

    3. philzgrill profile image80
      philzgrillposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Because Judas never repented of his sin, that's why.  There is a difference between worldly sorrow and true repentance.  Hope this helps.

      1. Dave Mathews profile image60
        Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this



        No it is no help at all, for the bible states that Judas repented.

        1. philzgrill profile image80
          philzgrillposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          show me the passage, let's look at it

    4. profile image0
      Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Dave, Cecilia Beltran has an awesome hub on this very question.

      http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Strange-Jes … l-of-Judas

  2. profile image0
    SirDentposted 6 years ago

    All sins have been pardoned by the death of Jesus on the cross.  Those who have recieved this pardon are free from the bondage of sin.  Those who refuse are still in bodnage.

    A pardon isn't a pardon unless it is accepted.  A man on death row can be pardoned by the governor of a state, but if he refuses the pardon, he will still be executed and put to death.

    1. couturepopcafe profile image59
      couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      So what happens to all those who died before Christ?

      1. Jerami profile image78
        Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        They were covered under a diferent explination.

        1. couturepopcafe profile image59
          couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, they had a different covenant.  True.

      2. Dave Mathews profile image60
        Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Those who died before Christ were given the opportunity to accept Christ or not when he was in the grave.

    2. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      SirDent: If pardoned by the Governor of the state for the crime committed, the person is free to go. The state cannot execute him that is unlawful.

  3. lovelypaper profile image69
    lovelypaperposted 6 years ago

    You know, you've really got me thinking. I always assumed Judas was going to hell.

    1. couturepopcafe profile image59
      couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Since Judas never read the Bible, he is going to hell according to Scripture.  No one knows if he followed the instructions in the Bible which say one must confess with his mouth and recognize Jesus as the Saviour.

      1. Dave Mathews profile image60
        Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        You are really grasping at straws here. How could Judas read a Bible a Book that did not exist until near 100 years or more after Jesus was dead The bible didnot exist, only the scriptures of the prophets existed at the time of Jesus and Judas.

        1. couturepopcafe profile image59
          couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          That's my point.  So what did he do?

        2. Beelzedad profile image60
          Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          My goodness Dave, you've stumbled upon one of most interesting contradictions of your religion. I'll make sure to remember your words for future reference and will quote them when necessary. Thanks!  smile

          1. Dave Mathews profile image60
            Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Beelzedad: If you plan on quoting me on anything, make certain that you quote me within the exact context of the conversation that I made the quote and also do not forget to quote whom I made the quote to.  You have a really bad habit of taking things out of context, and then twisting them to agree with your way of thinking which to others appears twisted too.

            A statement was made about Judas not receiving forgiveness, because Judas had not read the Bible Scriptures to know to ask for forgiveness through Jesus. My correction that I made was that The Bible did not exist at the time of Judas only Holy Scripture from the prophets, therefore there was no Bible for Judas to read at that time.

            1. Beelzedad profile image60
              Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              No, I don't Dave, please don't fabricate stories simply because you're unable to explain your extraordinary claims in any coherent or logical manner.



              You'll notice that my response to you does not change your statement in any way, shape or form, Dave.

              Your complaint is entirely misplaced and appears to be little more than an emotional display of immaturity on your part. smile

              1. Dave Mathews profile image60
                Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                I quote Bible Scripture. It is you who considers Bible scripture a fabrication of your idea of the truth. How is my claim that The Holy Bible did not exist at the time of Jesus, become misplaced or immature. Fact is Fact. Jesus read and quoted from Holy Scriptures of the Prophets, not the Holy Bible.

    2. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Why would Judas be condemned to hell if he was carrying out that which Almighty God and Jesus as "Son of God" had assigned to him so that the scriptures cold be fulfilled?

      Why would Judas be condemned to hell after he had repented of his part by returning back the 30 pieces of silver to Caiaphas personally admitting he had turned over an innocent man. Matt:27:3-4 ?

      Why would Jesus final prayer of forgiveness not cover a repentant Judas, even after he hung himself out of remorse for his actions toward Jesus?

  4. Jerami profile image78
    Jeramiposted 6 years ago

    Jerami wrote:
      That is the way that I have always understood it.
    I remember when I was a kid. My grandfather was a cotton farmer.
    Each year he picked a sack of cotton, took it to market, it was graded, and that is what he got paid per pound for every lb. of cotton that came off of his propety.

       The quality of the first fruits is what the rest of the crop was graded by.
       According to scripture there were 144,000 people that was presented to the Lord as the first fruits.
       The rest of the crop goes to market when it is time. And will be compensated for according to the value of the first fruits.

       That is the way that I understand it any way.

    = = = = = = =

    getitrite wrote ...

      What kind of God would create---then discriminate against that creation?  What a cruel, heartless, ignorant God.

    Very unbecoming of any sensible deity.
    = = = = = =   

       What the heck are you talking about,

       How in the world did you come up with that remark from anything that I said in the post that you commented to?

        I hope you feel better soon.

    1. getitrite profile image78
      getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Deleted

      1. profile image0
        just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Just curious, do you really not get it, or is this just you playing devil's advocate?

        1. getitrite profile image78
          getitriteposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Deleted

          1. profile image0
            just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I don't get prophesy myself, and I don't trust people too far with it, but I was told that the great crowd referenced after that is talking about the rest of us. Whoever the 144,000 are I think they're probably pretty special so they won't include me. I'm not big on crowds, but I don't think I will mind being in that one. If I haven't gotten it too wrong in this lifetime and I make it. Which I think I will. Call me a heretic, but I think you've got a good chance too.

            1. Jerami profile image78
              Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              It is impossible to even begin to understand prophesy without knowing   "THE  SECRET".
                There are timeframes written within all of these prophesy.

                Without  knowing  "THE  SECRET"  we have no understanding of prophesy.  If we have no understanding of prophesy; the meaning of scripture is obscured.

              1. profile image0
                just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Hi Jerami. So, do you think all scripture is obscured, or simply scripture talking about the return of Christ? Oh, and what's the secret? Not sure I folllw that.

                1. Jerami profile image78
                  Jeramiposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Is there anything ;  let me emphasize, ANYTHING, that we can study and understand NOT having a time line that goes with it ?

                    When you get older your can not understand anything about your own Childs life without understanding when.  When he/she wrecked the car, the bicycle, fell out of a tree when they were 6,  or climbed a mountain at 26.
                  Without a clear reference of time you yourself can not understand your own life.
                  How much more important  is it to have a reference to time when attempting to understand
                  World History? 
                  Imagine trying to understand World history and not having a timeframe.
                     In our mind, how would we separate the horses and chariots from the tanks and airplanes;  bows and arrows fighting against  M-16s.  and laser guided missiles.
                    We have to have a sense of when these things happened or the message is obscured.

                  The same is true with prophesy.
                   
                    God would not have given us prophesy without giving us a means to understand them! 
                  It is obvious that these references of time that are mentioned in prophesy is not the same length of time as we understand it here in this physical realm.
                    So why is this an unexplored issue when attempting to understand  prophesy??
                  The answer to this dilemma is hiding in plain sight and it seems that no one wants to consider it when it is pointed out?
                  The answer to that last question is that they know that understanding prophesy threatens their existing belief system.

                  1. profile image0
                    just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    So, send me to a hub you wrote that explains your philosophy on what you think our belief should be on the this topic. i am sincerely curious.

    2. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Jeremi: "getitrite" One of the Anti-Christ jumped all over your response. He has a bad habit of interjecting himself like that. Jeremi do not get upset, "getitrite" has little manners and even less sincerity or tact.

  5. thirdmillenium profile image61
    thirdmilleniumposted 6 years ago

    Would it surprise you that there is forgiveness for everybody; murderers, rapists, child-molesters, scamsters. There will not be anybody who will not be forgiven at second coming. EVERYBODY born into the world will lead a peaceful life during Jesus' rule on the Earth. The 1,44,000 are the assistants (ruling class) to Jesus.

    There will be some kind of reprisals for sinners (well, that frankly includes you and me) but only God and Jesus know what it is going to be and how it is going to be executed. But be sure it is not going to be eternal nor is it going to be fire or some equally gross punishment.

    1. philzgrill profile image80
      philzgrillposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      thirdmillenium, you're way off base (respectfully)...

      1. thirdmillenium profile image61
        thirdmilleniumposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Not really my friend. I m preparing an explanation FROM THE BIBLE  to support my theory. But is it not something I alone believe in. Millions do. It is not a doctrine of any church. No church will accept this outlandish (for them) contention.  One of their mainstay is to perpetuate this lie about hell and hellfire in order to keep the flock under their thumb.

      2. SpanStar profile image61
        SpanStarposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I have to go with you here philzgrill

    2. profile image0
      just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I like your way of thinking. Very merciful.

  6. profile image0
    Twenty One Daysposted 6 years ago

    I sincerely apologize if the verbiage sounded harsh.
    My studies/active application of theology (sensationalism) and equation (sciences) has brought me to a strange place it seems. A good place, I believe, shedding the skin of both. Unfortunately it seems now, I am under attack by former theists (aka atheists) and scientists. So, should anything I type seem inappropriate, please do not think it is personal...

    James.

 
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