yesterday had an interesting discussion with an atheist...he considered god to be primary block in human progress and according to him god less society would make humans more responsible and would contributed in human growth...do you think god less society is possible and do we have alternative of god for humans?
There will always be a Higher Power, be it science or God, its there. People need something to believe in. I gotta say, when my son almost died, I hit my knee's and prayed to everything I ever heard of.
// People need something to believe in.// Not all people need this and I would say that most people dont need it. I believe I was born due to random events that brought my parents together. I believe that I will die and that is the end of it. The only life I have to worry about is the one I'm living and it's up to me to live it right. If the the world discovered absolute proof that god doesn't exist, would the world cease to exist also?I would venture to guess you would get up in the am and go about your day, perhaps a little depressed but otherwise, all systems normal.
I disagree that science is a "higher power". It by no means is. Science strives to understand, religion doesn't even want to understand, they simply believe. Science is tangible, for the most part. We can see, feel, and record the results of it. We can't record the results of religion and what it does to people, good or bad.
And the last time I checked, nobody has used science to justify wars and the killing that happens in them.
Just creating the same cycles whether you start at God or no God...it all the same.. a closed loop.....same arguments divisions contention...non the better... all ignorant.
so mr enlightened please remove our ignorance by answering very simple question...is god less society possible in future?
I have already given yu the answer to dispel ignorance..
But since you need one to accommodate it, choose yes or no..any will work just fine.
Personally, i think no. Look at the past few thousand years and you will that it is human nature to want to believe in after life, god, etc
Seems we already live in a godless society. I don't see any gods, I just see their followers.
Talk about opening up a can of worms on the forums.
Edit: You should have posted this question in the best place- the questions section, so people could write hubs about it. However, I am pretty sure that there might already be some atheists and agnostics who've already written hubs on the subject, but since I've not looked, I could be wrong.
to avoid that i has put this on atheist category...this is to discuss and one cannot discuss god less society with people who believe strongly in god...isn't it?
@cagsil good idea ...i would implement that...
For all practical purposes, majority of people are Godless even now. Those who pray too keep it to minimum or merely follow it as a ritual. It is the innate goodness ingrained in people that keeps the world going without utter chaos overtaking it and not any thought about God.
The really seriously religious are not bothered either way
Do we want a godless society? I know no one wants to talk religion, and freedom of choice is in all of our best interests; but does the world have innate goodness? Americans have it good right here, right now, but the last hundred years have been pretty bloody worldwide. I was doing some research the other day on death over the centuries and I found a site on Wikepedia that gave the death toll from wars, oppression and other causes. High end results from two categories are listed below. I don't see the concept of god as our problem. I'd feel safer if we got rid of the politicians.
Last hundred years high end death tolls:
POLITICAL WARS 195,420,000
RELIGIOUS WARS 2,000,000
Last two thousand years:
WARS CAUSED BY THOSE IN POWER 456,420,000
WARS CAUSED BY RELIGION 26,500,000
just I disagree with this, //I know no one wants to talk religion// I actually enjoy learning about religious beliefs but it is hard to learn from someone who demands, accept what I say suffer an eternity of damnation. I don't mind talking about and learnng about all belief systems, from all time periods of human civilization. How does one manage talk to another that states they know the absolute truth about something most know absolutely nothing about? Why does one admission of I could be wrong about that particular mistranslation of that one word, cause the entire house of religious cards to fall? If something that I hold to be the truth is proven wrong, my world doesn't collapse. Admitting that they earth was flat didn't cause the collapse or christianity. but every nuance, of every word, written in an acient language, has supposedly been mastered by people who still have a problem wth the english one they grew up with. This not only makes sense to them, they feel they need to support this view point at all costs.
A lot of atheists enjoy talking about the history of religion and religious beliefs with those who can actually talk about it intelligently, rationally, and honestly. That doesn't always mean agreeing with the other side, btw.
Did the source of these stats state that in the last 2000 years those wars started by those in power were definately not religious minded or driven. In the last 2000 years of man's history, religion has been the dominate force in most countries and this resulted those who were in power were church or religion affiliated. The figures dont make sense considering the control religion in some form or other has had in most the decisions of that country. Going back to the early days of the pagan religions christianity was born out of and it turns out that religion has almost always been in control of the people.The majority of wars could not be for non-religious reasons, logically speaking, IMO. The figures for the last hundred years would depend on the definition and classification of religious war. The war in Iraq might not be considered a religious war but that doesn't explain the belief by so many christians that there are no innocent civilians being killed because they are all muslims and all muslims are terrorists.
Sry for the length, I have a pleasant rum and bud buzz going, peace everyone.
Oh I agree, in a as much as it is possible to point to the fact religion is used as a scapegoat. It's like the American Civil war. The underlying causes way outdistance the reasons we primarily attribute to the conflict. Has man always pondered more? Yes. Is man inclined to war? Yes. Godless societies in this century alone have killed 150,000,000. This is from the vision of just four men. This done by the visions of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. We are a violent species and I see innate evil trumping innate good over and over. Our interpretation of God is simply one of a host of problems we need to adress.
I have to wonder if society would be where it is today if there hadn't been a belief in God to question in the first place. I doubt it because who would have thought up the concept of a God to share with the rest of the world?
Whoever did would have been laughed off the face of the earth.
Many indigenous cultures never believed in a God as it is commonly believed today. We got along quite fine without it.
as it is commonly believed today - are you referring to the likes of the American Indian that believed in Mother Earth? If you ask me, it's basically the same - not a big bang theory.
I know very little about American Indian. What I do know about their culture is similar to ours (Maori) and from a European point of view it may seem that way. However the ancient indigenous viewed it much differently to the modern versions that are appearing more and more frequently.
There were more Native American than European at the time Columbus had been assumed to have discovered America and brought the first Christian.
The greatest genocide in human history happens to the Native Americans.
Just a hundred years ago North America was 98% Christians, how many native do you see today?
Christians were in America long before Columbus. were the Spanish Cathoilics that came up from Mexico not representing the christian religion during this time?.
Columbus was sponsored by Spain in 1492 first Christian and Spaniards to America
1496 - First Christian baptisms in the New World take place when Guatemala along ... in northeastern South America, in the area of Colombia and Venezuela ... Augustinian order arrives in Mexico; First Christian missionaries arrived...
Hitler was most impress with the American genocide and model after the Christian American conquers, yet never exceeded it
I'm not saying a Higher Power is a religious belief, to each their own, but having something to believe in helps, whether its God, Science, a Book, or your feet, to believe in something helps. That means believing in yourself. But when your scared, and you need help, what do you do. What I did was ask God to help me, asked the doctors to help me, asked my husband to help me, I didn't care where the help came from, as long as my son lived.
Ruth Bee Bee Hill published a book that covered multiple generations of the Lakota Sioux. She spent years among the people and it was an enlightening experience to read. The native america culture and beliefs are interesting and are geared to protecting and worshiping the earth that provided for them. I highly recomend the book Hanta Yo to any looking for an entertaining and informative first or fifth look at native american culture and history..
The god of christianity and most religions are a compilation of the pagan dieties that proceeded her. The concept of a god or gods has been with us since early in mankinds development. primative civilizations needed a way to explain the world they inhabited and considering the intellectual development of primative man, superstitions ruled supreme. There is no difference between a primative man praying to a rock than a christian praying to god. They are both practicing the popular belief system of the day and looking for supernatural explanations for natural occurances.
I think humanity would have been better off without religion. Think of the countless deaths caused by different beliefs. Almost every war tries to gain power but also imposes beliefs on other people. Science would have progressed faster, the great thinkers of the past would not have been condemned for their ideals. Society would have grown so that thinking outside the box was the norm, not the exception. Sure, it's like that way today, but a lot could have been avoided if religion was not involved.
You really think so?
I don't see any difference between believing in God or not believing in God - in relation to humanity, imposing beliefs, progression of science, condemning others for their ideals, thinking outside the box being the norm or exception....
Face it. There are exceptional people on both sides of the fence. Neither believers nor non-believers are superior to the other.
Btw Pisean, sorry, I never really addressed your topic.
Is a godless society possible? Yes, by each individual person being their own authority, without a need for direction from outsides influences. Those who are self-interested, develop self-growth. In doing so, one can ensure one's survival, happiness and future.
Being self-interested is about being interested in improving upon oneself, being consciously active in one's life, to ensure that their individual actions do not harm those who are living within the world.
Self-growth, brings about esteem and confidence. This provides self-worth and grants each person the ability to know themselves, while loving themselves, because their actions are based on honesty, derived from loving themselves.
When one loves themselves and knows themselves, then they can always have compassion for others who do not know how to go about doing it themselves. Thus, these same people become "teachers" or "leaders", to help those who do not know any better.
Life doesn't require any knowledge of a god, to be understood.
Life doesn't require any knowledge of a god, to be lived.
Those who live through honesty, bring love to others and allow them to learn the same path.
Cag, //by each individual person being their own authority, without a need for direction from outsides influences.//
How can a society exist if each person answers only to themselves. There must be a way for society to protect itself against those who seek to destroy it for personal gain, personal pleasure or due to mental instability.
//Life doesn't require any knowledge of a god, to be understood.
Life doesn't require any knowledge of a god, to be lived.//
A majority of people claim to need god to live life and yet a large prtion of these people simply use god to explain away their personal faults or justification for their personal anti-socail behavior.
If people are incapable of being honest with themselves, do you think they stand a chance of being honest to the world?
Godless society is what people try to avoid because sin thrives in such societies. This idea that man is basically good all one has to do is look at their young children and watch the trouble they get into so easily. We as mature people who understand right and wrong have govern the behavior of our children because thy see no wrong in lying, stealing, hitting and all the rest.
Adam & Eve saw no wrong in their behavior.
The people in Noah's day didn't see any wrong in their behavior
Sodom didn't see any wrong in their behavior
The bible states the time will come when the church will be removed from this planet then their will be a society on the verge of being godless.
What happens when you fail to govern the behavior of your children. Parents are guides not dictators. Each individual is unique and you cannot control or mould them into your ideal of what is good. As you say many do not see their own faults and therefore are teaching the same things to their children.
You may not want to be a dictator but if you are governing your children you have to do more then say them will you please stop. Many parents may hard choses for their kids but they know by doing it now it would be better for the child down the road, but to those parents who only want to be friends with their kids aren't helping them develope properly in life and so society has deal with what these so-call good parents didn't do.
In your opinion that might be true. More often than not it is the children who feel oppressed in some way that tend to go off the rails.
Guiding does not mean lack of discipline. It means allowing a child expression of what is naturally inherent. What is naturally inherent in children is what we should be nurturing not our own ideals of the model citizen we want them to be.
A child that is naturally creative is hard to teach intellectually. An intellectual child is hard to teach creatively. Accentuating their natural gifts is almost non existent in todays world. It is rare if parents, schools or the teachers identify the natural gifts and work with them instead of against them.
There have been enough cases in the news where good parents giving their teens in particular lots of freedom the room the parents are paying for which the kid occupies off limits to the parents only to find later on that the kid is doing drugs, making weapons.
You are right when in comes to creative and intellectual thinking but apparently not enough control was placed on either.
Yes as I said, guiding does not mean lack of discipline.
I have seen where good parents have lost their children to drugs temporarily because of giving too much freedom. In other cases it was not the freedom that bought it about but the association. Some things parents cannot always control.
Giving freedom is great providing you as the guide knows all there is to know about your child. There are choices that cannot be made if they are not mature enough.
Span, what you are talking about is the normal course for growing. You exerpience as many different ideas and concepts as you can and base your life on what you learn. if a child blindly obeys every command and wish of the parent they dont grow up, the replicate the parent, if this parent lacks the ability to think rationally, so will they child. Does it make more sense for your child to blindly follow your ideas, or learn to make their own decisions based on rational thought. Even if the child disagrees with your beliefs, they would understand your need for them and probably act accordingly.
Replicating the parents as you put it is that what kids do that's not unusual, we see it all the time you're just like your father, why your mother acted the same way. Look at the relatives the come out of homes where bigotry lives. Child aren't wise enough to understand all of what they should and should not do so that's what parents are their for- to teach them even it that parent didn't get all the skills needed to do the job right kids are still subjected to their teaching. Do people really think kids understand things better then those who have lived longer??
Span, you stated that a //Godless society is what people try to avoid because sin thrives in such societies// but if there was no god would there be sin? The offenses of individuals who commit crimes would be commiting crimes against society, Society couldn't have the same get out of hell for free card that religion offers it's followers, and survive for very long, IMO.
The easiless thing to have in life is a godless society, we teach people (primarily kids) to follow the golden rule which could be thought of as on a spiritual bases but to rely on society as if society is based on morals-No societies for the most part are based on laws. Therefore when you violate the law there is no mercy for society works on principles or right and wrong. If you committed and unlawful act then the law says this or that. In a society where religion is a fact one can say ok you did this act but we think you didn't mean to do it so we aren't going to give you the punishment you deserve.
No, I do not think we can have a godless society. Far too many people are believers. They are living a fantasy, but they do believe it.
But if people were NOT believers, probably not much would change. Very few people let religion have any real influence in their lives - it's lip service until they get deathly sick or suffer some other disaster.
Pc. I knew this day was comin and prepared accordingly. I disagree with you on this one. The fact that so many live in a fantasy world does not mean that we are destined to abandon reality.
// Very few people let religion have any real influence in their lives - it's lip service until they get deathly sick or suffer some other disaster.//
Religion plays a huge part in the lives of enough Americans to effect the treatment of people religion dislikes. it in no way resembles lip service to religion when baptist preachers use church funds to take out full page ads condemning homosexuality and, get support from the local community in the Stroller column in my home town paper. check out www.goupstate.com/stroller and simply search for stump parrish to get a list of my personal complaints.
Please be gentle with your response as I am quite sensative by nature. peace
Without reading the rest of the post, I believe that it is possible. People just have to start believing in themselves rather than a higher power.
That being said, society as it is now is far off from that.
fire, I agree, society is about as far as it can get from being civilized. It doesn't make sense to me to persue the same course of action that has done very little to improve society. At some point in time society needs to fire the head coach and start a rebuilding program. 2000 years of christian control and this world is still determined to wipe out all who differ in their choice of god or godess. Is this really what religion seeks to accomplish? Is the destruction of this world really the only option other than saying my bad, you can believe in your god and I wont secretly try and wipe out your entire religion and all it's followers?
It's human nature to want to wipe out something that is different from you. We have done throughout history, and are still doing it today. There may be "reasons" for this, but in reality it's just one person imposing their beliefs on another.
The only thing that would change the path which we as a race are going is the end of all religious entities (will never happen), a huge natural disaster or war (I'm talking about billions of deaths), or something like aliens visiting earth. While aliens may sound far fetched, another intelligent race would take our mind off of our own petty squabbles and focus on gathering together as a whole people, at least for a while.
That being said, all the above examples aren't necessarily going to happen soon or at all. Do I think we are doomed as a race? No, but I think something drastic needs to happen to change the way we think not as individuals, but as a whole. Depend on yourself, not religion, for guidance, and learn to be compassionate for every other human being.
Yet it is the individual that helps to make the whole. If many more individuals realize the effect they have on the whole in terms of everything they think and do. Perhaps then changes might start to occur. Although it is not as bad as some deem it to be. Many do realize how they affect their world and everything and everyone in it.
Blaming this that or the other for the state of the world is pointless. Becoming aware of who we are and how we affect the world is far more useful.
//It's human nature to want to wipe out something that is different from you//
I dont buy that, it seems to point to religous nature and not human nature.
The only thing that would change the path which we as a race are going is something like aliens visiting earth. That is hilarious and please excuse the editing. It is hilarious in that those who believe in a god from above, absolutely know their are no aliens. Extra-terrestial beings from another world are impossible and yet god is definately a reality. I do believe Sarah Palin could understand that line of reasoning, dontcha know?
Unless the right manages to totally destroy the education of future generations, it is inevitable that reason will over take superstition as a driving force for this country. Only by throwing off the chains of ignorance can society hope to escape
the reality of superstition's destructive control over our world.
What superstition are you talking about again?
That was a decidely atheistic remark now that I look back at it. I am in the habit of referring to religion based on it's common ancestor, superstition. The superstitious believe that if you spill salt, throwing some over your shoulder will ward off evil spirits. The religious believe if you spill blood. saying your welcome to the sky gets you eternal peace, or 72 virgins. One question I have about religion in general, how do you have a moments peace surrounded by 72 virgins all counting on you?
72 virgins...boy...guess all become he man after dying...
Some how after death, God just give you all this huge amounts of patients and sexual experience to teach all these 72 virgins a thing or two, that’s beyond my imagination
At this point and time I am declaring a mistrial and error. I mean holy crap, 72 virgins is a punishent not a reward. Only a primative sheep herder with no experience could look at 72 virgins and not say...oh hell no.
Unless virgin sheep are somhow born experienced at pleasing shepards.
You could get some experience from sheep,
No, that is a really baaa baaa joke
I already know what being fleeced feels like. Can you say I R S ?
A quick question off the subject but at the same time dead on. Did you know that virgin wool comes from really ugly sheep?
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Ok..being atheist , you dont believe in any intelligent supreme being ...my question is, you began atheist because of your observiation , experience and what role has religion played in making you atheist?
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