God had not created hell

Jump to Last Post 1-30 of 30 discussions (338 posts)

59
thirdmilleniumposted 13 years ago
To all my friends who thought I was off base in another forum topic when I said there was no hell, I will try here to explain:

God that is fair, and not sadistic. If someone was sentenced to an eternity of burning, don't you think the punishment would out weigh the crime?

God ,who is our final Judge, is also a God of love and mercy. (Acts 17:31) Think of how Israel as a Nation rejected Jesus, yet we have evidence of God re-gathering them to their own homeland again after many centuries of being scattered and “punished”! (Matt 23:37-39) Remember that: "God hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man Jesus whom he hath ordained…."

There will always be the opportunity to repent, and turn from former evil ways. If we repent and correct our errors to the best of our ability, we can rest assure that God will not punish us beyond what is needed to learn the lessons. “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord…” (Acts 3:19-21)

Remember, none are sinless now. All are fallen because of Adam, and if we had been born in another century, or another country even today, we would miss knowing anything about Christ. Would this make us worthy of eternal fire and punishment? Or is God's plan more merciful than that? Is now the only opportunity for salvation?

This is not to say that there will be no "stripes" for those who were especially evil and in need of correction. In God's kingdom on earth, as each one is resurrected, those who were especially evil will have to "pay" for the persecutions on others that they caused (Revelation 18:4-6). These will have a longer way to go to see their crimes and repent of their former ways. Some will not repent and will not abide correction, and will go into second death -- complete non-existence.

Had there been punishment, it would imply that the threat of punishment is the only way to train someone. Think about it -- is this the best way to train a dog? or is this the best tool that a parent has to train their child? Threats and punishment do work, and most dictators of countries use these means to keep people in line, but the people under an oppressive dictator are always looking for a way to overthrow the dictator. The oppressed child will someday turn on the parent. The dog who is beaten will someday bite his master. Is this the kind of Kingdom that God wants?

Fear is not needed. God wants a creation that will obey because they love him, not because they fear him.
reply report
1. 60
  Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Since God and Lucifer and Heaven and Hell all deal with a "Spirit" world and "Spiritual life" it does not apply to humans on earth.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Does not apply to humans while humans are humans. lol
  
  (just saying everyone must die, that I believe is agreed)
  
  Once we die we are freed from this physical body. (We have a spirit)
  
  (or are chained right back down except for worse in Hell)
  
  Just clearing that up for anyone unaware.
  reply report
  70
  pylos26posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  preach it Einstein...seldom do we get to endure sooo much intelegence.
  reply report
  74
  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Psst..that should read Intelligence
  reply report
  70
  pylos26posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh dear!...here I attempt to be rude and mispell. thanks eaglekiwi for that. too late to edit though.
  reply report
  74
  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  made me smile.
  
  We all do it-gosh somedays its all I seem to do.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually thank you. You make a completely valid point.
  
  The obvious should not be restated, and it was useless to do so.
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
2. 79
  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No God did not create hell. Nor should one fear God. One should know where to find God though.
  reply report
3. 0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it is actually very simple. God gave us choices. he says so in His Word.
  
  Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
  
  Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
  reply report
4. 60
  Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's sort of like being in a country where the "Death Penalty" still exists and is applied.
  
  If someone murders in cold blood a member of your family, lets say your sister, but before she is killed, she is violently raped again and again and then tortured for hours, or days.
  
  This man this animal is tried in court and found guilty and is sentenced to death, are you going to ask for leaniency that he spend his life behind bars, or, are you going to relish the idea that he will be put to death and watch to see justice done.
  
  Here's another scenario for you. You have two sisters. One gets raped. A couple of days later the rapist returns wanting the other sister too. You are home. Do you giver her to him willingly or carryout your justice for your dead sister?
  
  At the end of time Jesus will as executioner carry out the execution of satan, and all of his followers, those who have refused and refused to ask for leiniency from God. Let Justice be served and seen to be served.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Will you relish that, Dave?
  reply report
  60
  Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Beelzedad: I relish no persons death. I would not even relish yours on the day that you die. May Jesus forgive you your skepticism
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would suspect that if I ever met him, he would applaud me for using the brains he provided me, don't ya think?
  reply report
  60
  Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Truly you have a brain and you do use it. As for Jesus applauding your usage of it, even though he might be happy that you did use it, I feel he might be saddened that you used it to work so hard against Him.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But, you just threatened me for being skeptical, which is using my brains to question your beliefs. Seems you're now contradicting yourself.
  
  I am doing no such thing. I am questioning his followers, such as yourself, as to the claims you make about him. In other words, he has nothing to do with my skepticism of YOUR claims.
  
  And, if I question YOU, he might be quite happy to know that I am doing so, especially if what you claim is wrong. Hence, he will be saddened more with you than me in that regard.
  reply report
  0
  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  how is a person that hasn't said the 'magic words' and forced themselves to believe a 2000 year old story as bad as a rapist or murderer?
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You guys crack me up. I know there are some sketchy "self proclaimed" Christians on TV making a bunch of money, but someone lied to you. There aren't any 'magic words'.
  
  Accepting Christ Jesus also means following Him and His doctrine, and yes that means love.
  
  Matthew 22:37
  
  37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
  
  And I wasn't forced, God found me. Oh, and yes... He's real.
  
  Love, Peace, and God's goodness be with you,
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm curious, Dave, is this the world you live in now or is it a world in which you plan to live?
  
  Where do you get this stuff?
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Dave.I'm not trying to be argumentative, but your reasoning is off. What if someone does all of those horrible things, then truly repents and accepts Jesus just before their execution. Are they seen as purer than someone that never believed and lived a good life? There's got to be some room for fairness. Don't you think?
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Some will seek repentance but will not find it. Esau tried to find it but didn't. Judas Iscariot likewise did not find it. There will be many others.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But that really isn't an answer to the question, is it?
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is an answer to the scenario you presented. A person who does whatever they want thinking they will just repent and be saved whenever they want will not find repentance.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No. I believe someone on death row could come to understand the horror of their actions and feel true remorse, and be given forgiveness. So the dilemma is still unanswered.
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Esau and Judas both sought repentance with tears. They were both truly sorry, but yet they didn't find repentance.
  
  A person on death row could, indeed find repentance. (it seems you hanged the scenario a little) God said, "I will show mercy to whom I will."
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Now that must be old testament. That sounds horribly unfair. It could never be the words of Jesus.
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What about it seems unfair? Esau was from the Old Testament but Judas is the one who betrayed Jesus.
  
  Who can give advice to God? Who can show God what is right and what is wrong?
  
  I cam back to edit this:
  
  Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
  
  We are to choose life so that we may live. God has not changed. He is the same yesterday as he is today.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. Whatever the truth is of who God might be has remained constant. The variables that we use to identify the characteristics of God have changed over the years. I'm beginning to understand why people give up trying and become ignostic. How any, as Christians, believe themselves the jury, using an impossible litmus test to read the hearts of their fellow man, is becoming more and more of a mystery. I call myself Christian because I truly believe in the message as shared by Jesus. I, personally, cannot find that message in your philosophy.
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are not looking hard enough. You do realize that the gospel was first for the Jews, the Gospel of the Kingdom? It wasn't until the Jew rejected the gospel that it became the gospel of grace.
  
  Many talk a good game, but fall short of the truth. They like the easy things, but not the hard. They balk at sayings that Jesus said such as calling a gentile woman a dog. They call it rude and insulting, but the woman who was called a dog did not find it rude at all.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You follow the reasoning of man. I follow the spirit. Of course we can't see eye to eye on this. Stop letting others tell you what to think and listen to the underlying message of Jesus's words, and his alone. Then you might understand where I'm coming from.
  report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have been told that for a long time now. Everyone has the right way but me. Blah blah blah. Read something Jesus Himself said: Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
  Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
  
  Now, you remind me of someone who would reward their own child for doing somehting wrong or illegal. You would want to reward them for not cleaning their room, while making another clean their room.
  
  God is righteous and is the judge of all creatures, but He did not leave us clueless.
  report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I wasn't saying I was right. I think the spirit is different for all. We are all unique. Which explains our diverse philosophies. This goes for those labeled non believers too. If you choose to see the spirit as violent and judgmental, then of course that is what you will find in the text.
  report
  0
  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so not much point in criminals converting to christianity then
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one can come to God unless the Spirit draws them.
  reply report
  0
  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so God gets to pick who he wants. So much for free will
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God chose all, but gave all the freedom to choose Him. The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared unto all.
  reply report
  0
  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  that contradicts what you said about no-one can come to God unless the spirit draws
  report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Only in your mind. God calls, and you respond. You either go to Him or flee away from Him.
  
  If you would read about all who met Jesus, you will find that some believed Him, while others rejected Him. All had a choice to make. We have the same choice to make today. Some have rejected Him while others accept Him.
  report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
  report
  60
  Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus I believe would still forgive that person and their spirit would be cleansed from their sins. God through Jesus teaches us to Hate the sin, but to love the sinner.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So does that go for the good person that doesn't know Christ too? Or just the bad person that came to the fields near the end of the day. I'm still confused on your opinion on this.
  reply report
  67
  VOICE CIWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  VOICE CIW
  just_curious a person who repents and accepts Jesus is seen purer in God's eyes, than a person who have done good, but don't believe in or accept Jesus as Savior. The reason is Jesus died for the sins of all those who believe in Him and accepts Him as Savior. This is called living under Grace (unmerited favor). If you don't accept Jesus, you are under the law, and you have to live the law of God perfectly, and that is impossible, only Jesus have live the law of God perfectly.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot agree with that philosophy if it leads to a conclusion that good people fall outside of the good graces of a deity defined as a God of Love. Someone has miscalculated something to arrive at that conclusion.
  reply report
  67
  VOICE CIWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  VOICE CIW
  just_curious, a lot of people feel the way you do, because they don't understand that when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden that sinned passed down on all mankind. So everyone that is born is born in sin. Jesus Christ was the Sacrificial Lamb of God. He voluntarily gave His Life to pay the price for our sins. God could not forgive us, unless a sinless Person (which was Jesus His Son) died in our place. God is Love, out of His love for us, He sacrificed His Son for us. If we don't accept Jesus and His Sacrifice for our Salvation we are eternally damned. I know how you feel, I have friends and family that have not accepted Jesus as their Savior, I pray for them everyday, and I am going to start praying for you that you will come to understand Jesus and what He did. God Bless You! By the way this is not a philosophy it is the Word of God (Bible).
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The symbolism of the crucifixion was not lost on me. Having read through the words of Jesus, and having pondered the symbolism and then recently reflecting on what I believe to be true, as opposed to what I was raised to believe (which is probably a mirror image of what you espouse) I cannot find the words of Jesus reflected in the church's philosophy.
  
  The symbolism is for all of humanity, not the fortunate few. I do concede the point that it may be possible to say 'no thanks' to the possibility of union with the divine throughout eternity, but it will be a personal choice not a punishment meted out by any deity.
  
  I also concede the point that I could be wrong. But, I would rather be an atheist than believe in the judgement of God as taught by the church. Since neither is attractive, I'll keep my philosophy for now.
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  just_curious
  
  Good for you
  
  Either way or middle grounds, keep with kindness, self conscious and you can't go wrong.
  reply report
  67
  VOICE CIWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  VOICE CIW
  just_curious if you choose to be an atheist then that is your choice, God allows you to choose. He does not want any robots, He only wants people who desires to be with Him. If you want to know about the judgment of God just pick up the Bible and read the Book of Revelation. Don't blame the church for you choosing your philosophy.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Don't be ridiculous. I yearn for knowledge every day of my life. I try to reflect on the words and examples of Jesus.
  
  Wrap yourself up in the rest of it. Be as comfortable as you like, but it drags you away from the message. It makes you hate. You call it love, say you'll pray for people. What you are really doing is placing yourself on a pedestal of your own fabrication.
  
  I'm no better than you, or anyone else. I try, I fail, I try again. On and on and on.
  That's the life we all have, when trying to find the correct path. And everyone is searching for the path, whether we recognize it or not; whether we call it the same thing; whether we sit around and fight about it, or quietly ponder it.
  
  The gifts of God Jesus spoke of are free to all, and already inside all of us. In my opinion.
  reply report
  67
  VOICE CIWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  VOICE CIW
  just_curious, you say I have hate? Listen to you, if you don't agree with the Word of God that is you, if what I say get you all upset, then you need to look at yourself. I am only saying what the Bible says, don't get angry with me, I don't have a heaven or hell to put you in. God tells us to pray for one another, and you are so hateful, you tell me not to pray for you. You are just like all unbelievers if a christian tells you what the Bible says and you don't like it then we are putting ourself on a pedestal. If you look to Jesus and the Bible you will find the right path. The gifts of God, Jesus spoke of is free to all who accepts Him as their Lord and Savior. Your opinions don't count much if they don't line up with God's Word.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am not angry with you. I do get angry at the fact that people push others away from the message of Christ by ideas as espoused by evangelicals. I believe in the message of Christ deeply. It is a message that could benefit all, whether they came to believe in God or not. And I do believe that anyone that lives a life in line with the message is as pure as anyone that also does and calls themselves Christian.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Indoctrination is strong in this one.
  
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Stop it. I'm not as indoctrinated as you keep saying. I don't think. Maybe I am. I don't know. I simply think there's an underlying message that is the same as many other enlightened people have tried to share. I also think Christianity, as practised by the evangelicals, needs a serious wake up call. Sue me.
  report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  On the contrary, you have admitted to being raised in a Christian environment and then you said this:
  
  "I believe in the message of Christ deeply."
  
  That is big time indoctrination. Of course, no one likes to admit they've been indoctrinated in their childhood, but when they do, they break free from it and no longer possess "cluttered minds".
  report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can assure you, my mind will always be cluttered with opposing thoughts. It is who I am, and I kind of like it. No one knows anything, for sure. I freely admit that I was raised with Christian values. I freely admit that I have easily accepted the fact that it was, in many ways, wrong. But the bottom line message I see in the teachings of Jesus survive the removal of what you call the magic. It survives the removal of what you call (and rightly so) the indoctrination. It survives it all simply because it is a valuable message. If we, as a species, treated each other with the respect that shows we understand that we are indivisibly connected to each other, and the universe at large, we might find some much needed peace. For once in our troubled existence. Show me a better philosophy and I'll call you enlightened too.
  report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus taught more about Hell than He did Heaven because He didn't want them there...
  
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is bupkis.
  He taught about "hell" because, at the time, "hell" was the largest envelope of the Law of sin & death (aka the Ten Commands).
  It is the greatest thing that plagued humans --because all their works were for nothing under the Law --meaning physical & spiritual death. Keeping religious holidays, feasts, faux (religious) fasting, following the rules, quoting Torah or Tanakh, etc STILL led to "hell" under Covenant. Without the restoration of Grace, they had no hope of Life.
  
  James.
  report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The point is, you misunderstand the concept. You have misinterpreted intent, and turned it into Dante's Inferno. Well, not you so much as those who you listen to. There are so many other wise voices in this world. The evangelical stance is grounded in a philosophy little different from the three silly monkeys.
  
  Knowledge of our past has grown by leaps and bounds. Take advantage of it. Listen to the theologians that have studied it. Take into account the things your God given brain can see to be true.
  
  The message you follow is warped against your fellow man. It is not a message of love. No matter how often you type it in all caps.
  report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Jesus taught more about Hell than He did Heaven because He didn't want them there..."
  
  All caps??
  report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You like to talk about judegments of God. It seems you miss the mark by not speaking of the rewards of God. People talk about Jesus like there was really very little substance to what He said. They are blind.
  
  Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
  
  There is no other way. One must come by Jesus or one will remain as they are.
  
  Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  
  Those who are born again are born into the kingdom of God.
  
  Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
  Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
  Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
  Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
  Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
  
  Judgment will come to the prince of this world and his children will likewise be judged. Isn't it better to warn of this judgment than to let it go?
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do not miss the points of the rewards of God as outlined in the text. I am discussing the bad simply because that is all any seem to offer when saying what awaits those who don't believe as you do. The rewards are there for all. Don't try to horde them. It isn't nice.
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The rewards are there for those who believe. Those who do not believe will not be forced to take the rewwards of God.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And those who incorrectly define it cannot steal the rewards of others.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My reward is helping others.
  
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you are truly'helping'. Pushing people away with this fanaticism is little different from leading them away. And, if I am not mistaken, the scriptures warn you of the punishment for that.
  
  The point is, no one appears to be on this site to find salvation or damnation.
  report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well I meant like with carrying groceries, and opening doors and things of that nature.
  
  But uhh...
  
  However you see it I guess..
  
  report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh. I missed that you would pray for me. Please don't. I realize you think it to be a kindness, but I would rather face the fires of hell in defiance of an unkindness, than suffer the guilt I would feel if I were to be considered better than my fellow man. I'm not.
  
  Since you say you read the Bible. Consider the example of Abraham. He had no problem questioning his God. You should try it. You might find you aren't questioning Him as much as you are simply questioning yourself.
  reply report
  0
  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  good points, jc
  reply report
  67
  VOICE CIWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  VOICE CIW
  just_curious, you keep following the path you are on you will eventually face the fires of hell. I am a christian and I don't feel I am better than you or anyone else that don't believe in Jesus. I was once a unbeliever myself, and I got saved, just like anyone of you can get saved if you choose to do, I am not better, I am better off because I won't face the fires of hell. You have to tell me where in the Bible that Abraham questioned God, because I have not read that. I, myself would never question God, He is a perfect, loving God, Who cares for His own, and will not hurt us. God is Creator of the universe, He is Infinite (He is not limited in Knowledge and Power), and I am finite ( I have limits), He knows what I am going to ask before I ask it. That is why I say you unbelievers talk about and against God, and you don't have any idea Who He is, and what He is about. I know you say don't pray for you, but I am going to pray for you anyways, because you probably don't know what prayer is.
  reply report
  0
  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  your doctrine is one of damnation, not love. A doctrine based on fear.
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is a doctrine of love and Salvation by God Himself and not the mind of a man.
  reply report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sir Dent, Exactly.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not really that old school, but...
  
  AMEN!!!
  
  reply report
  0
  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  there ought to be some fear. If another world war broke out would people not fear? How much more so...... Some fear is good. Occasionally as a child i did something wrong and i feared the punishment of my parents. Is not God our parent.
  
  This world of love and nothing else is a false doctrine and God needs to be seen for who he is. A father, responsible for the raising of his child, one who bandages wounds and tans a bottom.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That post there surely shines as bright as the sun with the truth of God in Heaven...
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Story of Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 18. Starting at verse 22. Lot was saved due to the fact that Abraham badgered God with questions. I'd rather badger with questions too.
  
  Bottom line, you say I'm headed for hell? That may well be, but if there is a hell I won't find myself there by your hand; so your opinion on the matter is simply that.
  reply report
  67
  VOICE CIWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  VOICE CIW
  just_curious, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham was not questioning God, he was seeking God's mercy, his nephew Lot was in Sodom and he was asking God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah. just_curious I don't have a hell or heaven to put you in, it is all up to God, for the last time I am saying what the Bible says. The Word of God will make you feel uncomfortable it you are not doing what is right.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oddly, the Bible does not make me uncomfortable. The morals contained are invaluable, when put in perspective of why they were written. But you missed the point on the story of Abraham. He challenged God repeatedly on this as they walked. There is no shame, or wrong, in questions.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Questions I certainly agree...
  
  But challenge GOD?
  
  I'm sorry.. Just isn't smart, that's all.
  
  Unless I misunderstood something...
  
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. Unless you misunderstand something. You do not challenge any god by asking questions. You challenge yourself and your perception. If you believe in God, then you would assume that the truth, at whatever turn, would line up with who and what God is. Refusal to ask questions is the first step on a journey of ignorance.
  report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree!!!!
  
  Questions!!!
  
  Love you Just..
  
  report
  85
  oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We have been given the answers now more fully. All the questions you could have for God that you could "badger him with" have fully been answered in Jesus.
  
  The only question you could possibly ask is that he make an exception just for you, despite all the revelation we have at our fingertips. The ball is in our court to choose at this point.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The ball, in my opinion, got thrown out of the court of Christianity somewhere along the way. People stopped thinking. They stopped reading the scriptures with an open heart and mind. You've got those that argue that God does not exist. One of primary reasons their eyes are closed is, on many levels, organized Christianity has their eyes closed as to what we have learned of this world. If you believe in God, then you have to believe he gave you a mind to use. If people ignore the reality of existence it stands to reason they are of a weak faith, in my opinion.
  
  On the subject; the scriptures do not imply the hell that the church espouses. There is no eternal torture for anyone, by the standard description or any other. It would not be just, it would not be fair. Think about it.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I thought I cleared up the obvious statements of Jesus expressly claiming the eternal torture of Hell? Ahhh.. I see it now.. it's below not above..
  
  Yeah. down there..
  
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do see your dilemma. When you use faulty reasoning to follow erroneous statements, of course you will be confused.
  report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well.. Jesus' words actually. And definable words in 3 or 4 cases. But I mean...
  
  I don't know. Each their own huh?
  
  Hmmm... yep.. still love ya.
  
  report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  VOICE CIW, I agree with you. Good is not good enough if one does not REPENT and accept Jesus as their personal savior. Our good works can not save us. We recieve salvation only through Jesus.
  reply report
  67
  VOICE CIWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  VOICE CIW
  God Bless You Woman Of Courage, you better preach that Word Sister. It is good to have someone who knows the Bible to back me up. Can you believe some of these people, and they call us christians hateful, egotistical, and prideful. They don't even want you to pray for them, and this person is calling me hateful, because I am saying what the Bible say. Woman Of Courage I appreciate you, maybe I'll run into you on some other hub I am commenting on. I know why the Lord has us here, some of these people are really off base on the knowledge of God and The Bible. You be blessed. I love you in the Lord.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God Bless You Too VOICE!!!
  
  reply report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have shared several scriptures about hell that is clearly written in the word of God, and have been falsely labeled as hateful to silence me. Actually I am only accused of being hateful in these forums. People who really know me say they can see the love of God in me. Give God the gory. It seems when the word of God makes some people uncomfortable, they want to pretend it's not real by rejecting what is biblically written. You are very welcome. God bless you. I love you in the Lord also. For any of you who don't like me, I love you too.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't recall anyone calling you hateful, but most certainly I have seen many verses in scriptures in which one can see your god can be quite hateful.
  
  Perhaps then, it is that hateful side of god coming out. For example, if you threaten a non-believer with hell, that isn't you making the threat, it is your god.
  
  Unless, of course, it is you who is making the threat.
  
  I don't really think anyone here dislikes you. I certainly don't.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I like you a lot.
  
  Give God the glory.
  
  Glad to have you here WOC...
  
  reply report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  vector, Likewise. Welcome to Hubpages.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My first welcome! Thank you WOC!! I love it.
  
  Got a really big Hub coming out soon...
  
  "The Reality Of A Perfect God"
  
  Can't Wait...
  reply report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I look forward to reading it. That's a powerful title.
  reply report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Excuse the mispelled word in my post. Give God the glory.
  reply report
  60
  LaurenLLposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I truly agree. All praises to God!
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Praise God for another one to praise Him!
  
  God Bless You...
  reply report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Lauren, God is Great.
  reply report
5. 74
  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well I get it, but it didnt happen overnight and Gods grace allowed me to question and taste that the fruit was indeed the real thing
  
  Im not perfect but I am forgiven.
  
  To you non-believers who disrespect others who choose to believe shame on you for your bad manners!!
  It is notable rude n fact.
  reply report
6. 0
  kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dude, want to play thats just way too long of an OP, Hub it, we'll read it
  reply report
7. 58
  SMOMarketingWizposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God created hell to punish those feevish soul who denies God's existence.
  reply report
88
AdeleCosgroveBrayposted 13 years ago
When people take folklore stories literally, they're bound to feel confused.
reply report
1. 59
  thirdmilleniumposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Don't bother dear friend, it will not be too long now
  reply report
  88
  AdeleCosgroveBrayposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Actually, we're hardly acquainted...
  
  If you intend to imply that your deity will "get me at playtime" for not blindly believing in ancient myths and legends, then you've just undermined the Xtian description of their deity as being a loving, forgiving deity.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That forgiveness came at the suffering (payment) of Christ and has conditions. No contradiction, free will to choose life or death. We disobeyed, children inherit the sin, all due punishment, Christ came and died to redeem.... OUR CHOICE whether to accept His outstretched arm and do what He asks as creator.
  
  Very forgiving, you must repent to be forgiven though. Can't be forgiven if you deny what you do is wrong.
  reply report
60
SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Much of what you're saying I can go along with but we as people are judging sin as crimes as we understand them-But what person on earth knows the value of sin. From the very beginning sin always required death and so animals were used to try an compensate for sin as I believe sheeps or goats were killed so that Adam & Eve could have something to wear because of their sin.

Finally God's own son Had To Die To Save Us From Our Sin.
reply report
1. 59
  thirdmilleniumposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is precisely the point.
  Jesus died for our sins. So you do not have to bear the burden of your sins.
  reply report
  60
  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure what you're saying when you say," you do not have to bear the burden of your sins?"
  
  If you mean by Jesus dying he has wipe all sin away that can't be true if a hell has been set up for sinners to go to and so you're making the claim that hell doesn't exist.
  
  If hell doesn't exist then their's no reason for Jesus' to judge or accept people into Heaven because according to you all sin has been remove and we can all storm the gates of Heaven but in fact the bible says many will be going into Hell verses how many will be going into Heaven.
  reply report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Span Star, You are right.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hell was prepared for fallen angels. But she is very right people do go there.. Bless her heart, I can't believe I overlooked the post.
  
  reply report
70
Cagsilposted 13 years ago
God had not created hell-

What god?
reply report
1. 59
  thirdmilleniumposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your and my God, dear friend
  reply report
  70
  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I realize you claim to have a god. But, it is incomprehensible for you to claim that I have a god, considering I am asking "What god".
  reply report
  0
  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your unbelief does not unmake God. The laughy faces are signs of nervousness. Your denial is your self defense.
  But none of what you have just said is truth
  it is sarcasm, another defense.
  
  Ask yourself again, what God.
  reply report
  70
  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your interpretation is in your own mind. Keep on deluding yourself. It's what makes you happy.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He's right.
  
  He's not of our Father (John 8:44). Doesn't change the outcome, or who's in charge though.
  
  And he is also wrong. I do not claim to have a god, that is what he 'thinks' which is called an 'opinion' and it changes nothing.
  
  I have a God. Not a god... that's someone else's god.
  
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it is same...there are 7 billion interpretations of GOD...there is no single GOD and can never be single GOD...GOD was created in human minds and no two minds think alike...GOD would exist only till intelligence exist...
  reply report
  81
  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The great master of the mind Carl Jung would agree with you.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow... You really do chase me...
  
  So why don't you take that brain of yours that you call your god and control it to somewhere I'm not at?
  
  You've jumped on the coat tail of every single discussion post I'm on only replying to me..
  
  Apparently you really want to change my mind? Is that it? You care what I think that bad???
  
  I said my God and their god.. That backs up your statement that no two minds think alike. Now how about you take your advice and realise what you said is my brain isn't like yours and skip along now okays?
  
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  what can i do , only you seem to be over active on this and i am posting to many not just you...i am not GOD which singles out non believers or does favors to believers ...I am just human and sorry if you felt i followed you , i didnt ...you bombarded this post and i replied ..secondly i am just clarifying and informing you what science is discovering...science was not so advanced 2k years back and so stories were easy to be floated ...it is not extremely advance as of yet too...so dont worry god would survive for another 2k years...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well. I was wrong about following then. And even if you did follow me, I changed my mind... I want you too.
  
  I love you pisean...
  
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And yeah I did bomb this place with love huh?
  
  I love you guys.
  
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Since when did Zeus become your god?
  reply report
  0
  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If the egyptian Gods were utterly shown to not exist in the story of the plagues against pharoah, then how is zeus anymore real? or the tooth fairy. The gods that man conjures up outta thin air does not make them real.
  
  Have we evolved or simply forgotten the true ways? When things were simpler people had time for families and friends, travel. Manufactured goods lasted many many years, Food was healthy.
  Is our life today better than yesteryear?
  Are the new gods better than the old?
  
  or has our quality of life gone down the drain in so many aspects.
  reply report
  70
  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That makes any god that was conjured by man not real. You're arguing, but fail to realize that the god you claim to exist is or has been conjured by man. Hence, not real.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe the idea that God doesn't exist was conjured by man you mean?
  
  Irreducible complexity
  
  We're not an accident.. That's absurd to even consider.
  
  And there you go talking about someone else's god again.
  
  Told you. I have a God.
  
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, just like your god, glad you agree that no gods have ever been shown to exist and have as much credibility as the tooth fairy.
  
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And our DNA 'accidently' made itself over time against unimaginable odds?
  
  Just like your morning newspaper I suppose?
  
  Why would God show you He exists? You would just tell Him to His face He doesn't.
  
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  beelzedad wont do that because god has never shown up to any one ever...yes creative minds have made stories about it and humans like jesus and Sai have been elevated to position of god by fellow humans but that is it...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay I'll bite... Kinda.
  
  What's the point their slick?
  
  We all get the point you don't believe in God. We all know you think your brain is God. Your kind of parroting yourself there pisean... I pretty much know your whole story by heart.
  
  How about quit chasing my posts around will ya?
  
  still love ya...
  
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I do understand believers have little or no concept of evolution. I wouldn't have suspected anything different.
  
  Unlike believers, I would change my position in light of facts. Show me your god, please. Can you?
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Facts? Of what? Life "popping" up out of dead stuff?
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's Christianity, which they've called, "The Resurrection."
  
  Science doesn't work that way.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  More like..
  
  life = intelligence
  
  dead stuff = no life. no intelligence. no chance of life.
  
  Scientifically sound.
  
  reply report
0
just_curiousposted 13 years ago
Third Millennium, I love what you said and I have always believed the way you do. Just not quite as eloquently.
reply report
1. 77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God created hell for satan and the 1/3 of the angels that followed him. ....
  1 John 1:8-9; Romans 5:8; Romans 10:9-10; Romans 10:13; ...
  
  Since man wrote by his hand, man created hell.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi castle. I supposed if you believe man did not have divine inspiration that would be true. I don't agree, but I see what you're saying.
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  NO Hell of everlasting tortures as taught in most denominations of Christianity. The traditional concept of Hell does not come from the inspired Hebrew or Greek manuscripts. It started from early teachings of the Roman Catholic Church
  
  Ancient Taoism had no concept of Hell, as morality was seen to be a man-made .
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I got a book on that like you suggested. I'm enjoying it. I do see reference in the New Testament scriptures to a concept of some separation from God for some in the afterlife, but I agree, if I get what your saying, that Hell a as we understand the modern church's definition is a man made concept.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 13:41-42
  (Jesus)
  41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
  
  Matthew 13:47-50
  (Jesus)
  47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
  
  Matthew 25:46
  (Jesus)
  46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
  
  Luke 16:22-31
  (Jesus)
  22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers —so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
  
  Mark 9:43-48
  (Jesus)
  43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, 48 ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
  
  Sorry... Unless you deny Jesus not man made idea.
  
  Certainly not taught by Catholics first.
  
  And I'm pretty sure that's all from the Greek Manuscripts.
  
  And I've got a ton of searching if you want all the stuff from the Hebrew...(There's more from the New Testament too, trying to keep the post modest in length, but will post scripture locations upon any requests)
  
  reply report
  0
  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  first off you need a king james bible. Weeping wailing and gnashing of teeth does not represent forever and ever.
  
  the verse before:
  Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
  
  tares are completely burned up. disintigrated, destroyed.
  The lake of fire is the second death.
  
  torment forever and ever is certainly a catholic doctrine.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 18:8
  
  KJV - Jesus
  
  8 "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."
  
  Matthew 25:46
  
  KJV - Jesus
  
  46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
  
  Mark 9:43
  
  KJV - Jesus
  
  43 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"
  
  I got a KJV too..
  
  I love ya brother..
  reply report
51
paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
God had not created hell

A man that does not obey the commandment of the Creator-God and remains at a distance from Him purposely; creates his own abode in Hell.
reply report
1. 84
  Midnight Oilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How can we sleep while our beds are burning.....
  reply report
  74
  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Awesome music !! and I get it.
  reply report
61
Liam Hannanposted 13 years ago
I think you are looking at this slightly back to front.

"Hell" does exist, but as a state of being rather than as a physical location.

"(The) state of definitive self exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell' " - Catechism of the Catholic Church 1033

I can't think of a more simple and articulate way to describe it. "God" is the representation of Love, Hope and Joy. To turn away from those things is already to be in "Hell".
reply report
60
smalikaposted 13 years ago
You have been forewarned of the consequences; we have a choice and we have been given knowledge, it is our duty to investigate and look for the truth; Does bible sound true to you? does it appeal to your intellectual sensibility or does some other scripture? The first thing one should try to understand is whether God exists and if He does, then what is the mode of being in his good books.. it is our duty to delve in comparative religion, check different arguments and then make up our minds. to be christian just because our parents were is a folly, find out WHY you are what you are.
reply report
59
vector7posted 13 years ago
Hell is death for the soul.

The soul is a spirit.

Spirits cannot die, as they are eternal.

God is life, separated from God is death.

God is goodness, separated from God is nothing good.

Hell is complete separation from God, also separated from life and goodness.

Opposite of pleasure(God), is pain(Hell). Or Death(as dead as a soul can get)

God will not tolerate evil, which is disobedience because disobedience has no place in a PERFECT world. If a part of something perfect is disobedient, then that thing is no longer perfect. It is a threat to God's perfection to allow something disobedient to be a part of Him. And imperfection leads to death (which we see in Windows' operating system every day) and God will not allow something to kill Him, for God cannot Die. He is Holy.

If you want to know if Hell is real, take these points and search earnestly. Look in demonology if you are desperate, demons always show their true colors (evil) when they are cornered(please be careful). And as such are a proof of God and Hell.

You must look hard for your answers, as the spirit is not the same as the physical in any way. But escaping Hell is well worth the search. (Through Christ Jesus)

God Bless You All...

Daniel C. Buchanan
reply report
1. 59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  By the way, I noticed someone saying Jesus bears the burdens of sins and there is no need to worry. (Paraphrased)
  
  This is ONLY true IF you accept Jesus Christ as your Saviour, claim him as such among men, depart from all iniquity(or disobedience to God), and seek to serve Him as your Loving Master.
  
  Matthew 10:32-33
  (Jesus)
  32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.
  
  2 Timothy 2:19
  
  19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”
  
  Matthew 10:37-39
  (Jesus)
  37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
  
  (Losing life is giving up your wants for Jesus' wants... a.k.a. - serving Him)
  
  John 14:15
  (Jesus)
  15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
  
  John 6:47
  (Jesus)
  47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.
  
  Matthew 7:21-23
  (Jesus)
  21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
  reply report
2. 0
  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The soul is not actually a spirit. The soul is the flesh or body, interpreted in hebrew, animated flesh. Man is spiritually dead before christ, therefore having no spirit. The idea that man has a spirit is a Platonian idea. God puts his spirit in us, until then we are just animated flesh fulfilling the wants of our flesh.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree God sustains our life, but our spirit is gave to us and is in us now. Of course it is still God's soul, everything is His even our bodies.
  
  Spirit as defined by Strong's Concordance including Hebrew reference number.
  
  Spirit - 7307 - ruah:
  breath, wind; by extension: spirit, mind, heart, as the immaterial part of a person that can respond to God, the seat of life; spirit being, especially the spirit of God:-
  
  Psalms 142:3
  3 When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me.
  
  God's Spirit does not become overwhelmed.
  
  Psalms 143:7
  7 Hear me speedily, O Lord: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit.
  
  God's Spirit does not fail.
  
  Proverbs 16:32
  32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city.
  
  Man cannot rule God's Spirit.
  
  Ecclesiastes 12:7
  7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
  
  You cannot return God's own Spirit back to Him.
  
  The New Testament
  
  Spirit as defined by Strong's Concordance including Greek reference number.
  
  Spirit - 4151 - pneuma:
  wind, breath, things which are commonly perceived as having no material substance; by extension: spirit, heart, mind, the immaterial part of the inner person than can resond to God; spirit being: (evil) spirit, Ghost, God the Holy Spirit:-
  
  Luke 8:55
  54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
  
  Here it is described as her spirit coming back, meaning it is in her.
  
  1 Corinthians 2:11
  11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
  
  This one is kind of self explanatory, as there is the spirit of man, and the Spirit of God.
  
  1 Corinthians 6:20
  20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
  
  We have a body, and a spirit, but they are both still God's.
  
  Soul as defined by Strong's Concordance including Greek reference number.
  
  Soul - 5590 - psyche:
  life, soul; heart, mind; a person; the immaterial (and eternal) part of inner person, often meaning the animate self, which can be translated by pronouns: "my soul" = "I, myself":-
  
  (Definition copied directly, no comments added)
  
  Matthew 22:37
  37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
  
  You need a soul in order to love God with it.
  
  Matthew 16:26
  26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
  
  You cannot lose or exchange what you do not own or possess.
  
  Romans 2:9
  9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
  
  The soul is the man's, and cannot be the Spirit of God within the man, because the Spirit of God does not do evil, showing our soul/spirit is separate as ours, but owned by God.
  
  We have spirits/souls.
  
  God Bless You...
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  0
  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lets look at ruwach.... strongs is heavily catholic influenced, written at a time of course when catholicism was ubiquitous... but often we can see where both accounts are given.. the catholic definition and the hebraic definition and we need to distinguish between the two and as far as i am concerned the Hebraic definition wins every time.
  
  the hebraic definition in strongs: by resemblance spirit but only of a rational being (including its expressions and functions) This is in line with OT standards. Animated flesh
  
  Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living SOUL.
  Here is nephesh (from 5314) properly breathing creature that is animal or (abstractly) vitality.
  
  The two definitions are very much the same.
  
  from: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm
  The opposition of flesh and spirit is accentuated afresh (Romans 1:18, etc.). This Pauline system, presented to a world already prepossessed in favour of a quasi-Platonic Dualism, occasioned one of the earliest widespread forms of error among Christian writers — the doctrine of the Trichotomy. According to this, man, perfect man (teleios) consists of three parts: body, soul, spirit (soma, psyche, pneuma). Body and soul come by natural generation; spirit is given to the regenerate Christian alone. Thus, the "newness of life", of which St. Paul speaks, was conceived by some as a superadded entity, a kind of oversoul sublimating the "natural man" into a higher species. This doctrine was variously distorted in the different Gnostic systems.
  
  in every definition of spirit you will find the words rational soul, which in keeping with the hebraic context means flesh became animated again. But if you subscribe to platos idea man has a spirit.
  You have heard the term "the spirit of the world has changed since i was a lad", pertaining to the attitude of the world. A spirit of anger is an angry disposition. These allude to the animation of flesh aspect. Which is still very much concure, is in keeping with the hebraic definition.
  
  the soul is the recorder of our lives. When the resurrection occurs, what is resurrected. And the dead that are in the graves will rise... the animated soul and paul goes on to say .. that this corruptible must put on incorruption. There is no spiritual resurrection but the soul, the animated flesh that is our reactions, actions, holds our rationale. If our spirit becomes mingled with Gods spirit and we become more like christ does not our spirit dwindle... then there should be little of us to resurrect but if God spirit is within us and our souls are affected then our soul should be resurrected for what good will it do God to resurrect himself in us.
  
  I enjoyed your input. To steer away from being a follower of plato is a hard thing to do. But scripture, i think, says differently.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Unsure where you got that notion. I don't believe a word of what plato has wrote, and couldn't care less for that matter as that's the first I read any of it.
  
  I believe in exactly what the Bible says, no more and no less.
  
  Luke 21:19
  Jesus
  19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
  
  Body, and Soul. That's it. Everyone has a body, and everyone has a soul.
  
  Believer's were sent the Holy Spirit after Jesus resurrected and left, which of course is one of the three persons of God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
  
  Plato is a no go. I'm strictly Biblical to the core, God's will only.
  
  Here's a verse:
  
  2 Timothy 2:14
  14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
  
  So, I don't agree completely but the God's word says to let it be. And I could care less about that detail, so long as the Gospel of Christ Jesus is being spread.
  
  God Bless,
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
62
pisean282311posted 13 years ago
eternal life , heaven , hell, religious god were created by human brain...so humans created hell concept as humans created heaven concept and well as concept called god which we see in most religions...
reply report
1. 59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Tell the past four decades of famous rock bands that demons and hell don't exist. I think you'll have a pretty determined and motivated crowd to bang heads with.
  
  Study up. Anyone who believes that demons aren't real should look into all the personal statements made by so many of those famous people. And they are all parallel, nothing opposed as they all believe in Satan as a REAL person.
  
  Check it out for yourselves. You might conclude differently.
  
  Or you could just wait until your dead... You know, point of no return. Doesn't seem too smart though considering a days worth or research is the payment. lol
  
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  now what has famous person to do with devil...most famous people belief ,they are indispensable too ...but are they?...convinced brain doesnot mean it is right.. forget today's time...most famous people years before where kings and most thought they descended from god or sun or something like that...religious god , hell,heaven is concept...it would die its natural death too...but new god , new concept would get created...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They have to do with large numbers of people agreeing on one topic.
  And please refer to the type of fame I spoke of... ROCK BAND FAME.
  
  Back to the drawing board.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh... And I forgot the 500 plus, witnesses that seen Jesus after the resurrection. Verified by more than just those who followed him.
  
  There's also plenty of people who didn't follow Jesus who affirmed Jesus' miracles. I think raising people from the dead is enough for me to believe He is God. Never heard of proof that anyone else done it. PERIOD.
  
  The evidence is there. Can't see what you don't look for though.
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The evidence is there. Can't see what you don't look for though.
  
  very well said..evidence that religious god is story is there for all to see...from fossils to archeology to science...proof is there but if one doesnot want to look into it and believe something written by people who lived when ,where is itself unknown then none can do anything about it...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Science has been correcting it's mistakes for YEARS.
  
  But if you want science...
  
  www.clarifyingchristianity.com
  
  "none can do anything about it..." ?
  
  Maybe we should just let people look from there...
  
  That statement almost seems like your saying all these people are completely helpless as to whether they can find out what the truth is... LOL
  There is a truth, and you can find it because it's there.
  
  Just like you can argue what you want BUT...
  A tree is a tree no matter what name you give it or what you say it is.
  The earth was round, no matter what they USED TO THINK. (sound familiar? "evidence that religious god is story is there for all to see")
  And the idea that even if Jesus is really God and suffered for me, I'll just take my opinion right on into Hell *if it's real* for eternity instead of simply looking. (*correction*)
  
  (And as per kindly noted by pisean Christ did not simply suffer, forgive me for lacking clarity - He died on the cross living a life of pure obedience to restore our place with a perfect God.. Please see above post for 'Perfect God' )
  
  Either way, your partially right, if they don't want to look. What to do right?
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  the idea that even if Jesus is really God and suffered for me, I'll just take my opinion right on into Hell for eternity instead of simply looking.
  ???????????
  
  what are you saying man?...god suffered because HE is said to be creator...it is his job and nothing to do with you or me...It is like ford taking all cars back because HE could not make it right and media saying oh ford suffered!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...btw nice story but not as exciting as other faiths...read other faith stories too...they are more interesting ...though all like this story ,lack evidence but still would be good read...
  
  science can correct its mistake but can religion correct its blunders?...yes recently church said sorry to galileo...but that is it...only one sorry in 2k years...but i welcome that step...though it would take 100 more years for church to accept its blunders in totality but atleast they have started understanding that they too are plain human beings...
  
  I would have loved to go to hell but alas it doesnot exist , other than in believer's mind which too dies with death of human...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Look, I told you... I've gave everyone what they need.
  
  My aim isn't to prove, it's to enable others to find the truth. Which is what I hope they all want.
  
  And you should study up on the corrections. The Bible has been ahead of science for over 1000 years, and that evidence is everywhere TO FIND BY WHOEVER WANTS TO LOOK. I'm not doing this - "prove me wrong" - thing. It's even on youtube for peat sake.... lol
  
  I know the truth, if they look so will they. No need for me to do any more talking as I've gave all the necessary information.
  
  By the way... Interesting? Really? That's not the aim dear. TRUTH.
  
  God Bless You...
  
  Daniel. C. Buchanan....
  
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Truth and i have given you more tangible proof source than mere some novel like book...it is upto you to come away and see thing as it is ,not from prims of mere book but from what actually man called jesus wanted...he said i and father are same ...what he meant was there is nothing up there...it is here only...among us , within us and that is why he said kingdom of heaven is within us ...humans are sole creator of religion and its god...dont let religion become issue...it is small thing and can be recreated...miracle is not in book ,it is between two ears...the only miracle...which creates...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL..
  
  Please let people read the Bible.
  
  That stuff you said is hilarious.
  
  Everyone, please read the Bible.
  
  Enough is enough.
  
  Happy posting everyone.
  
  LMHO
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  not as hilarious as the book which you are promoting...never the less i believe you want good for others and so are promoting the book...as long as your intention are good ,no matter how much it may be flawed , it is still great...atleast your good wishes would work even when books have failed to work...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I thought I was done posting but I thank you VERY KINDLY for recognising that, and knowing that I do what I do out of Love.
  
  I doubted God until the age of 25 when I started looking for everything I could find as evidence for the Truth of Heaven, Hell, and the Bible. (I out-ruled the quran very quickly by it's advocating sex with 9 year olds, and it was the only other sensible option I seen)
  
  I wouldn't actually hear the sound, but I could hear people screaming... More like a knowledge that there were people screaming and it wouldn't go away (and yes I was far from God at the time). This is what pushed me to search until I completely proved or disproved the Bible.
  
  I would Love to be more agreeable and open, but I know that what I have found is true. Otherwise I certainly would not stand for it even if it meant my death.
  
  I do Love you pisean, and I would beg you to look harder. It only seems like nonsense when you don't understand it. That's why Jesus calls himself the light, because when you finally see Him... You know and you see.
  
  Either way, enough of me pushing on you. You know where I stand, and I thank you for knowing that I DO IT OUT OF LOVE.
  
  Sorry for laughing at the last post - I did find it sort of funny though, in a cute way...
  
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I got that...i respect that...i know you intend good for others...even in all those posts which were not in synergy with my point of view , i was getting your intent and i truly appreciate that...
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Uh, why do you think we are here discussing it? It's because we have read it and find it a rather vicious and immoral fairy tale.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, if it's on youtube, it must be true.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You really never make any valid points. Just unnecessary comments that have no use in the argument. The things posted on youtube are information guides already put together with VALID resources backing them up to be confirmed.
  
  So yeah. So much for the joke. I only endorse solid verifiable facts. Sorry to spoil your little party.
  
  And if you think it's a fairy tell, you should keep looking. It's information has been confirmed by YOUR scientists, YOUR historians, and TONS of people who were government scribes simply recording what happened and stated that they didn't believe in Jesus but claimed ALL of his miracles.
  
  Please do your research before making personal assumptions based on lack of information. No, all cannot be verified. But Jesus IS verifiable and is not a fairy tell.
  
  Very nice try though.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ::sigh::
  
  Poor me..
  
  Bee had me irritable.. Thank goodness those days are over.
  
  reply report
59
ChristineVianelloposted 13 years ago
Someone told me once that spaghetti monster created heaven and hell.
reply report
1. 58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster. rAmen.
  reply report
61
Clotier Nailingposted 13 years ago
please elaborate a little further...
reply report
0
SirDentposted 13 years ago
Jesus own words: Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

G1067
γέεννα
geenna
Thayer Definition:
1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call “Gehenna” or “Gehenna of fire”. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.
reply report
1. 0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sir Dent, you have to be kidding. I can find the definition of a unicorn. Although I would love to see one, I'm pretty sure they don't exist.
  reply report
  0
  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So then what you are saying is that you don't believe what Jesus said?
  
  Those are the words of Jesus himself. The definition shows the original Greek word and it's translation.
  
  I digress. No use posting any more on this thread to you. I pray you find the actual truth and not a fabricated truth.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I believe in Jesus's message. This does not imply I agree with you.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He was stating that if you believe in Jesus, then you believe He is what He says He is which is God come in the flesh to save humanity.
  
  If you believe Jesus is God then his words are true.
  
  If his words are true, then that definition states that is what Jesus meant Hell is.
  
  And not to mention if He is God, no need in saying He could have used the wrong word. So if you believe in Jesus, SirDent's point stands valid.
  
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, what you are saying is if people don't agree with your opinion they don't believe in the message of Christ. Big difference. Evangelicals are not the primary voice of Christianity in the world at large. Does everyone else have it wrong? I think not.
  reply report
  74
  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Strange ,didnt Vector just explain what he meant?
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oddly, I noticed that and responded to it. Not sure where there was room for confusion.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Never said thank you..
  
  Thx kiwi..
  
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God says something = It must be true.
  
  If that definition is a description from God then no interpretation is needed.
  
  Believe in Jesus = Jesus is God
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Vector,
  
  Where does "Jesus" make this statement, apart from "The Father and myself are one"? (which is not him saying he is G/god).
  
  James.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for asking.
  
  John 8:58
  
  56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
  
  Everyone knows the parallel from His statement here with Exodus 3:14, and for anyone who doesn't God says He is "I am" in Exodus.
  
  I will agree He never explicitly said here "I am God." But He did 'reference' Himself as such. Notice how they wanted to stone Him. It was because they knew what He meant was that He was God. But, yes you could argue differently, it just seems somewhat obvious to me as I don't think the name 'I am' has been applied to another single entity in all of time.
  
  And I also don't see how He could have been "before Abraham" if He isn't God...
  
  And as for the passage you quoted, I do believe being 'one' with something is being equal to it or at the least a part of it. But, I also admit that you can interpret it otherwise with other points somehow. I just don't see it though.
  
  John 20:27-29
  
  27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
  
  Here Thomas proclaims Jesus to be God. And any time someone said something to be incorrect, Jesus surely corrected them. (One reason He was hated so fiercely) He even says "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Endorsing Thomas' statement as true.
  
  "Believed" is referring to what Thomas believed, which He said out loud... "My Lord and my God!" So He actually says to Thomas that you have believed I am God because you seen, but blessed are the people who have not seen and do believe I am God.
  reply report
  61
  Liam Hannanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your statement there is problematic;
  
  In order for "God" to "say something" He must use a human language. Human language is by nature limited and imperfect, and cannot accurately express "truth" across the boundaries of culture and time, even if the truth being expressed is beyond those boundaries (in fact, the issue tends to arise because the truth lies beyond those epistemial boundaries in the first instance).
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, Jesus said He is God. If you don't see it I can fully understand, but please understand I am agreeing to disagree.
  
  And "God" doesn't need human language to say anything. Don't underestimate the Creator of everything in existence. He can speak without words at all, and has no limitations of any kind. Again if you disagree, understood.
  
  God Bless You..
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  61
  Liam Hannanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's not that I disagree, it's that I'm expressing things as they are. (And whatever Jesus may or may not have claimed to be is irrelevant to the point being made - all his claims were made in Human language)
  
  The Bible was written in human language, and every time "God" (or one of his prophets or incarnations) has appeared on earth they have communicated using human language. Language shapes our understanding and is our mechanism for the communication of information. Regardless of whether "God" might theoretically be able to communicate in other ways, He has evidently chosen to do so through language, and the language we have dictates our capacities for understanding Him.
  reply report
  51
  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Bible is neither written by Jesus nor in the language Jesus spoke.
  reply report
  61
  Liam Hannanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Unless you are suggesting that the Bible was written in a non-human language, the authorship and particular language are circumstantial to the wider point that Truth is culturally constructed through linguistics.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You guys crack me up...
  
  Your statement was my explanation was problematic, in the sense that we can't understand Him through human language.
  
  My stance is that I fully understand what He was stating to Thomas, which is that He is God.
  
  You either believe He is God or He isn't, your doubt we can interpret anything using human language says that you don't believe we can truly understand anything wrote on paper or interpret it correctly.
  
  Therefore you disagree that it can be interpreted correctly, for I say it can.
  
  God bless you,
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Billions of people on this planet will place their confidence in the latter. Many others will state, "None of the Above"
  
  So, it would appear that your 'bottom line' pales significantly.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  reply report
2. 0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  It occurred to me, after I posted my reply, how funny your post was. You realize that in that passage Jesus was chastising the religious leaders for how horribly they had deviated from the intent of God's word.
  
  I find it interesting that someone espousing the teachings of the church would not recognize the curious nature of this discussion and not wonder if, perhaps, they too had deviated from the will of God.
  
  Just a thought.
  
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  For anyone looking for what that passage was ACTUALLY about, if interested I have included a link to a page from Matthew Henry's Complete Commentary on the subject. He is very detailed and widely known. Verifiable as well.
  
  http://www.biblestudytools.com/commenta … ew/23.html
  
  It was about people not believing in Christ and what He said. Woe unto the Pharisees because they led people to Hell. The link explains the whole passage with plenty of insights.
  
  God Bless...
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, it was about how people had twisted a truth to their obvious advantage, in my opinion. Very pertinent to the practice of evangelical Christianity today.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone can follow the link and read the scholars page to decide on what the passage is about.
  
  That's exactly why I included it so that the choice is there and I'm not bickering. My point is Lovingly made and I don't have to force it on anyone. It's not my intent to 'push' people into believing something.
  
  reply report
0
Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago
Gehenna is used to define the pit of death.
Again the subject matter is life v death.
That is the subject from Adam to Christ.
Adam brought death to life;
Christ brought life to life and death to death itself.
This is the ENTIRE purpose and reason of/for salvation.
This was the first of all major notations under "old covenant".

"Eat of everything else except your own desire or you will die."
"Follow my laws and you will live and not die".

The symbolic meaning of "lake of fire", "pit of fire", "heat of the deep" (Sheol), is also believed to mean a very harsh purification. As the elements of impurity must be removed in order for the pure element to be revealed.

The same words are used to define 3 teenagers tossed into the fire for refusing to worship a wooden statue and came out unharmed. It is also the same word used to define the "refiners fire".
It is also used to define the believing use of faith as well as dividing chaff from wheat itself, as the chaff is burned because it is not useful as wheat, but useful as soil/fertilizer.

It suggests those who do not willingly overcome fear, immorality (the acceptance of mere thoughts, feelings) will be put through this "super fire" in order to remove all impurity.

It does also suggest that if there is "anything left"/"any hope remaining" after this refining takes place, these people may not be able to stand in the presence...

...the "hell, fire and brimstone" idea has been taken way out of proportion.

James.
reply report
1. 0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you James. As always, your input is wiser than the rest of us. Seriously, no joke intended. I hope to one day understand completely the concepts you post about. You appear to have ascended to a higher understanding.
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You, just_curious.
  
  I really believe a people are alive today, much like myself, who understand and are going to make the "1st century" expressions look like a day at the beach. I have been talking to some people about a workshop of this, as I --after two huge experiences with ministries-- do not want it to become a church. Know what I mean?
  
  Who knows, it might lead to some eye opening for others --believing or not. Stranger things have happened...
  
  James.
  reply report
  0
  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, please have some mercy on the rest of us and let us know where to find information on the results of your workshop. I'm sure it will be enlightening.
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  a ha...have mercy, made me think of Elvis, sorry...
  I have plans for a webinar series, so definitely will keep everyone posted.
  
  You are very kind.
  
  James.
  reply report
51
paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
A man that does not obey the commandment of the Creator-God and remains at a distance from Him purposely; creates his own abode in Hell.
reply report
59
vector7posted 13 years ago
I don't think I want to go to Hell at all no matter what 'ideas' are applied. (or higher understandings whatever that changes, I don't see anyone that has came back and I'm not sure higher understanding applies unless actual experience is involved)

I think that if we say the sun won't burn us alive because a loving God wouldn't make such an evil creation as to have the power to destroy things that contain life and that we can go there without dying, I don't think the justifications or personal interpretations are going to change what happens when you get too close to it. The reality is a painful, scorching, death. (Or maybe immediate incineration depending on how it happens, who knows, still death though)

I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason for purification in Hell. Those three servants of God were not in torment by the way, that was a story to show God could save those who trust in Him and serve Him. And Jesus was the main teacher on the subject of Hell, of which he expressly said was punishment and torture for eternity, separation from God. Eternity has no end. I see what He says as it is, just like everything else He said was plainly stated with examples.

The example is like this. God says don't jump in the water...

Adam(man) jumps in the water, and can't swim... (Fruit yeah? Disobeyed)

God says, I'll save you if you promise not to jump back in...

Adam(man) jumps into the water again and again because it's fun to jump and God keeps saving Him.

God says, if you keep jumping in, there's no reason to keep saving you as you will ALWAYS jump in(never stop being disobedient/sinning). One of these times if you don't try hard to understand and not jump in, you'll be on your own.

Adam's(man's) time runs out, God doesn't save Adam(man) - Man curses God for being so evil, when God isn't evil at all.

I see it as very simple and common sense. Not to mention, time is a creation(think about when your timer stops, it's done right? And there is no time left) and things that exist in time are completely different than things in eternity.

I see time as a tool (and our time does end) for God to give us a chance to finally make up our mind that He is God and has the authority, and we should listen to Him.

Just my thoughts.

reply report
1. 0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Time exists only in Elohim (Nature).
  It does not exist in any of the mentioned Realities before the 4th of seven. Nature is the lowest level of Creator revealing himself.
  The level man was created in was a status above time, after all the other realities (less one) were formed.
  Nature requires time for regeneration, etc.
  
  It is challenging for humans to conceive no time and a life in a such a stasis. Eternity in light or dark is simply implying a continuum of time. Time was fashioned for mans observation on the Fourth Reality of Seven. Each layer fashioned precisely to allow man to exist within it, yet not effected by any of the limitations placed on it.
  
  So, an eternity (span of time) in "hell" (void of free will; limited existence; cyclical suffering; purification; is not all that inconceivable. Again, they are suggestive measures of what is possible. And it is not void of time. So, is there a possibility after the loop of purification/time span, one could be freed from such a stasis? Certainly. It occurred once before --if the text is accurate-- at the resurrection, when the great multitude was released from that stasis (as also reaffirmed in Johns revealing of Y`shua Moshiach (aka Revelation).
  
  James
  
  sidebar:
  
  Brooke.Crawford,
  There is no mention of such an entity anywhere in the texts. Not by name nor by suggestion. The word Luficer ( lucem ferre or morning star aka Venus.) translates as light bearer, messenger of light (transmitter of information to and from). Isaiah uses the term Morning Star/Venus to refer to the fallen King of Babylon, how it appears quickly, shines bright, then fades in comparison to the real the light of the sun.
  
  Secondly, Free Will is void of decisions. Choice is full of them. I said this to someone recently: if you must choose to be good or not, you are void of any free will. I wrote a hub about it also. Choice is the bastard child of free will...
  And yes, reconciliation is always available until man is consumed by the limitation he placed upon himself -time.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree. There can be plenty of free will within boundaries. The dog can only play in the yard because a car could kill it. The child stays close to the mother because a bad man could hurt him. (Us and God. )
  
  God gave you all COMPLETE free will with instructions to choose whether to follow or not. Complete free will includes consequences, such as if you give the dog complete free will to go where he pleases, chances are (unfortunately for many poor dogs) he will get hit on a road as dogs tend to follow them.
  
  And yes that passage from Isaiah is misquoted by many Christians. But Jesus still said that Satan exists.
  
  And how did man place -time- which he obviously didn't create upon himself? And it is obviously a creation as we use it as a tool constantly.
  
  The limitation of a man's time is his death, of which he obviously has NO CONTROL. Therefore how could he have placed it upon himself?
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And yet, few dogs get hit by cars, and in fact, most will just live their lives out, content or otherwise. Do you find a lot of dead dogs on the roads in your neighborhood?
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Look up abducted children then. My point stands and is valid. The numbers are ridiculous.
  
  Complete free will includes consequences. Let your three year go where he wants and it's not going to be pretty. But with his mother the three year old can play with anything that is safe, giving him free will within boundaries.
  
  It has nothing to do with dogs. That is another useless question by the way as my neighborhood and what I find in it are completely unrelated to the point.
  
  Your not going to invalidate my point with a side question. What I said is still true.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, they are not. Child abduction by strangers is very rare while child abduction by parents is common, usually due to a divorce where one parent removes the child from the care of the other.
  
  According to statistics, less than 1% of all missing children is a result of abduction.
  
  Your point is entirely invalid.
  
  Hilarious, as if a three year old has any concept of free will.
  
  Funny, how you make the example of dogs and now you say it has nothing to do with dogs, completely unrelated??? Contradict much?
  
  You told me to do your research for you and I did, finding that what you said was not true at all.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then let them do their own research as if they are incapable?
  
  And even at 1%, no matter how rare, there are STILL CONSEQUENCES.
  
  The three year old doesn't need to know the concept to have free will.
  
  Your question of what I find in my neighborhood is irrelevant to the point, not the dog having free will.
  
  Are you done making useless points?
  
  I'm done here. Everyone can see the useless questions and irrelevant statements for themselves.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Clearly, you have not done so yourself, are you incapable?
  
  Perhaps, but notice that your original claim was shown to be fabricated, hence your point was invalid. What else do you fabricate?
  
  True, but you said, "free will within boundaries" hence the three year old has only as much free will as there are boundaries preventing him.
  
  Again, you said, "if you give the dog complete free will to go where he pleases, chances are he will get hit on a road" which isn't valid. If you could show that your streets have a lot of dead dogs, then it might be valid.
  
  Don't you mean am I done pointing out your fabrications and logical flaws?
  
  Before you even started, yes.
  reply report
  61
  Liam Hannanposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually - despite being a practising Christian, I find myself agreeing with Beelzedad. Your argument for free will is neither convincing nor theologically sound - he's just pointing out the more obvious flaws.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, your both right. Christ by His grace saved me. It wasn't of my free will at all.
  
  Beelzedad, I am controlled completely by the will of God.
  
  And Liam Hannan, I need not convince anyone, though I was previously attempting. Thank you for helping me see the flaws.
  
  Not to mention, I know God really well. Not so much on theology though... So yeah, your probably right. But God knows, so no big deal.
  
  Glad your a Christian.
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? I'm surprised that your god doesn't know what a logical fallacy is, you use them all the time.
  
  A somewhat dim-witted god you have there.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but the more I think of that statement the funnier it is.
  
  You mean to tell me you have no free will in school(rules), no free will under government authority(rules to keep citizens 'good'), and no free will under a parents instruction(which is obviously needed for children)?
  
  PLUS, you must have FREE WILL to CHOOSE the good or the bad, because without free will means to have NO CHOICE...
  
  Definition of free will (n)
  Power of independent action and choice: the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination
  
  I'm sorry, it's just not a sensible thought to say anything of the sort.
  
  Maybe a good effort at reason, but incorrect.
  reply report
2. 61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  vector, Very well stated. I love the book of Ecclesiastes. It's a time for everything. I like the examples you have given about jumping in the water. Very insightful!
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's God doing all the talking dear.. lol
  
  I really am not that great. Thank you though, you are very kind.
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God is great. I can see that God is working through you.
  reply report
61
Brooke.Crawfordposted 13 years ago
i agree that God is all-loving and all-merciful. i also think that our free will allows us to turn away from Him, which in itself is hell. in fact, it seems, from several passages, that the will of individuals that turn away from God is what keeps them away; Lucifer chose to leave. He will not decide to turn back. Our decisions determine our heaven or hell; God is always open to our reconciliation.
reply report
1. 58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Usually with choices, there is one side and the other side, or none of the above. For example, if it was actually a choice, it should be thus:
  
  1. Heaven
  2. Hell
  3. None of the above
  
  Now we actually have a choice.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And if none of the above doesn't exist... Then what?
  
  Hmm. That is a doozy...
  
  reply report
0
Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago
"Satan" which is actually ha-satan is also not an entity but a stasis of the human mind.

Time is not "a creation" but an expression within creation.
It was used to limit (subdue) the planets, the stars, vegetation, etc.

As for how did man put a limitation on himself? You answered it after --death. Man chose death. Man STILL chooses death today. Why? Because if he understood Free Will --which IS Life, he would not choose --and the result of choosing, his own demise, his own self-applied limitation; ha-satan.

Choosing is void of Free Will, because free will has no time, no limit, no necessity ; Adam did not need to choose what to eat, where to go, what to do. He just did and was in perfection. When he did choice (seized motion-perfection) he made his first choice and he brought death to life, plunged himself into his own mind. The human mind was/is a tool of operation, allowing man to do without effort, engaging it. This meant he did not need to choose anything to experience complete Free Will while engaging nature. His mind became his master --and all it billions of energy frequencies (aka thoughts) and deduced him to the natural realm (time realm; cyclical loop; hell). His body began to slowly decay, intellect diminished, power (light-spirit) faded into nearly nothing. X-thousand years later, he evidences of his choice is ever present.

Here is quote from my present novel in-process regarding choice and free will:

"Ignorance is the perception; the perfection of Choice, a void, an illusive satisfaction; rather than Purity, which is purpose..."

James
reply report
1. 59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You mean to tell me you can choose to not die? lol
  
  And " Adam did not need to choose what to eat, where to go, what to do. When he did, he made his first choice and he brought death to life,"
  
  Definition of free will (n)
  Power of independent action and choice: the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination
  
  I'm not sure where some of your reasoning comes from but there isn't much arguing with you. You contradict yourself. Just look at the definition friend.
  
  "It was used to limit (subdue) the planets, the stars, vegetation, etc."
  
  If it is 'used' to 'subdue' all of those things, why do you exclude us under that control? We(humans) don't control planets, but we can control whether we die? I don't see the logic here. I'm very sorry...
  
  The choice is to admit you have a flaw (disobedience) and accept Jesus' payment and grace to fix you and keep you from being useless to God. You don't keep anything useless to you do you?
  
  Workers don't hire people that sit on there butt, even if they have huge hearts. Just so God won't accept someone who says 'I'm not going to do anything to help you, just give me what I want.'
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We(humans) don't control planets [plants, water, motion, light, darkness]...
  
  We don't , now; there is nothing --absolutely nothing-- to suggest we didn't or were not designed to do so. In fact, I think there is a mountain of text regarding the things we can do, are supposed to be doing and that were planned for man, to the level he cannot even conceive. So, if I can conceive ruling planets, certainly it is possible and greater things than my conception.
  
  As for death, you and 99.9% of the other believing and non-believing are actually quite contrary in your ways. You say yes we can live [but] then say no we must die. You say yes we must die, but you create and take all kinds of measures to prevent it; You say yes we are free, but no we must remain slaves; So many Jews...so little faith.
  
  You just quoted me a text where the 1st-born of many gives you a perfect visual of who you are/look like -less the scars of course --and in the same breath you hold the same "confession" of death.
  
  Two minds don't make a right.
  Either it is or is not. Either you are or you're not. Either you choose or your are free to be. Which is it? Are you a product of choices, endless confusion of billions of threats of light in an area the size of a grapefruit or are you the embodiment of Creator a brother to the 1st-born, able to conceive and do greater works --even ruling over all life in the oceans, the birds that fly, the animals of the forest, the plants, the trees --even the planets and messengers of light?
  
  James
  
  PS, the "definition" presented by "dictionistas" is not necessarily correct --oh wait it is necessarily, as it is necessity-- not to mention mutable, as "they" see fit.
  
  PSS, according to Genesis and other scripts "time" was activated in the 4th of 7 realities. man was fashioned above those realities.In fact he was fashioned and told to rule over them, not be subject to them. That would include time. Time was a tool to subdue the natural world. Humans were fashioned to control time and all elements of creation manifest. Unless the text is wrong.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "PS, the "definition" presented by "dictionistas" is not necessarily correct --oh wait it is necessarily, as it is necessity-- not to mention mutable, as "they" see fit."
  
  I think it is a little over the edge to claim the definition accepted by ALL OF THE WORLD to be incorrect. (that includes Christians and non-Christians)
  
  To say that every dictionary in the world has shaped the ideas to their advantage seems somewhat unrealistic. And I also don't see how they would all be on the same page. ( and haven't any clue what advantage it would give them all, lol)
  
  I believe we live through Christ and I have plenty of faith. But this body in which I live will die and my spirit will live.
  
  And I don't seek control, I seek God, which is the source of all my happiness. What we are destined to do will be given us in due time.
  
  I also think stretching the mind that far into the world of unknowns as to say "there is nothing --absolutely nothing-- to suggest we didn't or were not designed to do so..." is coming up with random imaginable and flattery thoughts, that are practically endless - where our actual potential does have limits which God sets for good reason.
  
  Your ideas are very abstract in nature to say the least, and I seem to find a hard time finding points to address. But I will say this:
  
  Life is not simply a 'you choose this or that, end of discussion.' Is is a maze of endless turns and decisions. Every word you speak is a proof of free will as you choose each of them, one by one, with a choice as to what fits the topic with good reason. You choose the ideas you promote. Each person on this thread expresses opinions which they chose based on the things they have learned in life. You choose when to sleep, when to eat, when to speak, when to listen, to agree, to disagree. You CHOOSE to obey laws and guidelines and do the things which are not harmful to others, or to use your free will as you wish to steal, or cheat, or to lie. The rules are for reasons, not to kill free will. Without rules children would create chaos and hurt each other, and we all know this is true. And the same is true of adults, as we see the horror which the lack of love inflicts with reports of crimes each day. We have free will, within rules and boundaries for our own good.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is that what you really believe? Funny, I find that most people who do not believe in gods tend to use their free will to spread compassion, understanding and altruism, while I find believers do little more than spread the gospel.
  
  That is entirely untrue. Children can hurt each other and see the results of their actions. Rather than apply some ancient rules, one can simply ask the child to think for themselves in that if they too would like others to hurt them. In this way, they think rather than just accept bronze age doctrines.
  
  True, prisons are full of Christians. So much for your so-called rules.
  
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I love you no matter how much criticism or judgement you pass on my statements.
  
  I'm unsure why you attack every word I say, and Christians were all once sinners so your statement is true. There are Christians in prison. Those who truly follow Christ though will only do good to others and they do spread the Gospel. This doesn't not mean we are automated robots with a lack of rationalisation, thoughts, or feelings. Knowledge is not evil, the misuse of it is.
  
  I think your next post I will leave alone, as if I don't this will never end.
  
  Wishing you the best.
  
  Daniel C. Buchanan
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is a discussion forum in which people make extraordinary and false claims, hence there are bound to be those who will point those out, because it is a discussion forum.
  
  Yes, and there are a whole lot more acts Christians are guilty of committing while they gleefully ignore the rules of your religion. In fact, there probably isn't a single Christian on the planet who follows those rules to the letter, you included.
  
  And yet, with the spreading of the gospels, we have witnessed the results being wars and genocides. Missionaries wiped out entire civilizations with their gospel preaching.
  
  I'm sure you probably will deny that, too.
  
  You are most certainly robots when it comes to your faith, sort of. You are all supposed to follow a very strict set of biblical guidelines which is the same as a loaded program into a robot.
  
  Of course, Christians rarely due follow that program.
  
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but you've chased down nearly every post I've made. Sure... Your "discussing" things...
  
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but if nearly every post you make is rife with contradictions, you might then understand.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Yes, and there are a whole lot more acts Christians are guilty of committing while they gleefully ignore the rules of your religion."
  
  Sorry, wrong again. Those are called hypocrites if you haven't read up.
  
  "And yet, with the spreading of the gospels, we have witnessed the results being wars and genocides. Missionaries wiped out entire civilizations with their gospel preaching."
  
  You mean the "Good News"? I think your referring to Catholicism. We don't force anything. And you mean preaching and teaching good news kills? I don't have to deny anything, your post says it all.
  
  "You are most certainly robots when it comes to your faith, sort of. You are all supposed to follow a very strict set of biblical guidelines which is the same as a loaded program into a robot."
  
  Robots do not enjoy anything, have no feelings, and most certainly cannot reason within their mind, which obviously robots don't have that either. I have tons of things of which I freely choose separate and completely different to enjoy than those of who share my faith. And calling someone a robot is very demeaning, you should be ashamed.
  
  "Of course, Christians rarely due follow that program."
  
  And I think I clarified that above, as those are called hypocrites.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Deleted
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I know Christians are hypocrites. No need to convince me of that fact.
  
  Evidently, we have just a few less civilizations and many millions of people less as a result. Of course, you are free to deny the genocides of Missionaries these past centuries.
  
  I am very ashamed of religious hypocrisy, hatred, oppression, slavery, genocide, racism and host of other evils perpetrated on societies these past many centuries, very ashamed, indeed.
  
  Yes, I know. I will continue to point out that hypocrisy if you don't mind.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My goodness. The good news teaching is still responsible for genocides is it? I didn't know words of God's love could kill...
  
  Perhaps your implying they are killers rather than teachers and preachers?
  
  I'm sorry your ashamed of all that, I didn't know you participated.
  
  Point away, unsure where your pointing though.
  
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, the latest was the Rwandan genocide between the Hutu and the Tutsi, we witnessed gods teachings in action there.
  
  There are many examples of such religious genocides throughout history, all with the intent of teaching gods word.
  report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently you keep overlooking things...
  
  I teach God's love. Unsure of who they are, or why your comparing them to me.
  
  My intent is to love everyone. Any genocides for over-loving?
  
  report
  0
  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  beely said
  "one can simply ask the child to think for themselves in that if they too would like others to hurt them"
  
  do unto others as you would have them do unto you
  GODs got this one.
  
  you well know prisons are a good place to claim to have found GOD and try for an early parole. Empty argument in my books. WHY DO YOU CONSTANTLY PROMOTE THE SAME MISINFORMATION that you should have previously become aware of as being debunked.
  
  i really enjoy your compassion and altruism
  sound of the buzzer again.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, your god said to take an eye for an eye. People soon realized that all that resulted in was blindness. It was evolution that changed that hate filled notion.
  
  And yet, when the paperwork is filled out upon prisoners entering the prisons, "Christian" is what is placed on that paper in the appropriate section. In other words, they were god fearing Christians before they went to prison.
  
  Hence, if the claim to have "found" Jesus while in prison as a way to get an early parole, that would seem rather dishonest, wouldn't you say.
  
  And then of course, when they get out, they continue to commit crimes and find their way right back into prison "finding" Jesus again.
  
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Looks like you enjoy attacking people to me..
  
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I understand that would appear to be the case with those who have no clue as to how a discussion forum operates.
  
  You may want to educate yourself in that regard.
  
  Start first with the list of logical fallacies, and go from there.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "...with those who have no clue..."
  
  Not attacks?
  
  Hmm, tisk tisk now.
  
  implying ugly things are we?
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not at all, again, please refer to the list of fallacies to educate yourself.
  reply report
  0
  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  no wonder you are so negative.. you dont believe in anything
  
  im done with you again
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I understand how you would consider the presenting of reality as something negative, considering it blows your "faith" house of cards away to dust.
  
  Sure, only to return soon with more of the same. Yeah, I get that.
  report
2. 59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry I forgot to clarify.
  
  Definition of expression (n)
  word or phrase: a word or phrase that communicates an idea
  
  When you 'create' something, it is firstly an 'idea.' Without an idea you cannot create something new. Therefore, an expression is the thing that describes what was created as the expression is what communicates the 'idea' that shapes the creation.
  
  (notice the definition says an expression is not a 'thing' but a word or phrase)
  
  Time is a creation.
  
  Definitions of time (n)
  1. system of distinguishing events: a dimension that enables two identical events occurring at the same point in space to be distinguished, measured by the interval between the events.
  2. period with limits: a limited period during which an action, process, or condition exists or takes place
  3. method of measuring intervals: a system for measuring intervals of time
  
  Systems are created. And Methods are created. These are the building blocks of time. Time is a system and a method that was created.
  
  Hope it makes sense.
  
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Time is a tool used to fashion certain events within a stasis of nature. So time is not a singular creation. Nature is one of many creations. And within nature are many elements of itself, meaning manifestations (expressions) like rocks, birds, trees, water, etc. All equally light, all unique in variance and frequency, all sentient. All glued together by the tool designed for them to be glued together --that is time.
  
  James
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well James,
  
  I will have to say, I don't see any proof, and that sounds sort of theoretical or kind of thought up as we don't seem to know the essence of everything physical except God created it.
  
  But I will agree to disagree, and I wish you the best in all of your thoughts.
  
  May God Bless You All...
  
  Daniel C. Buchanan
  reply report
0
Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago
Daniel,

Can you point precisely to this:
where our actual potential does have limits which God sets for good reason.
-where is that actual potential listed or defined by its limitations, post-resurrection, if you please.

And yes, by their very existence, dictionaries are incorrect, hugely and grossly fallible. They are simple and often abstract constructs of humanities expression of events and things. And of course, within this limitation man needs such measures to validate things and his reason for doing things. The advantage is irrelevant, as it is an application of necessity within the human condition. They are on the same page, looking at it from various perspectives.

Like many, you seem caught between the sciences of Humanism and Christianity, unable to let go and be what the work requests of you. Honestly, what do you think all the work was done for? Why do you think the law came, the prophets came, the redeemer came? To give you 60 years and a ticket to heaven? Really?!

Funny, as the texts are explicit in many places { teens thrown into a fire did not burn or die, a man ran faster than a chariot, other men raised from death by just a voice; a woman healed by touching just a cloth; a student walks on water for even a split second; plain water turned to wine; a stone rolled back and death itself destroyed! }

The apathy of "G-d do all and I'll just sit --what we are destined to be will be given in due time" is really hackneyed.
Especially for the believing who are commanded to be and do exactly as the Father does. To speak as he does, act like he does, think like he does. Because ALL humans are designed to be mirror reflections of him! All of the work was done to show you that destiny, clear as day --so when you hear the word you can actually do it! That is why he came and why he went and why he sent the Teacher after him, to show you "all things". "No thing is now hidden from you". Nothing...

I am deeply curious as to why the believing do not get this and understand why the non-believing still do not believe or worse why the post-believing (atheists) are so tormented in themselves.

James.
reply report
1. 59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dear James,
  
  I don't want to clutter the post with side arguments. (respectfully)
  
  Not only that, but the topics you bring up are very, very deep and require plenty of attention and a ton of information to cover it all.
  
  Here is where I stand. I believe in God, that God wrote the Bible, fortold of a messiah, came to earth in the flesh as Jesus, and that Jesus said to love and seek God and His kingdom and everything else God will take care of.
  
  I am letting God use me to teach the truth that God exists, that Jesus is God, and that there is a Hell and a Heaven and that I don't want anyone to go to Hell and Jesus is the only way out of punishment and separation from God.
  
  I do this because I know it is true and will die telling it's truth, because just as God loves humanity, so do I. Jesus' words were "Repent" and that is exactly what I intend to tell others.
  
  This will be my last post on this forum, I love you all. God Bless You...
  
  Daniel... C... Buchanan...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Guess I'll never say that again!
  reply report
67
awareposted 13 years ago
i thought god made hell for his friend Satan?
reply report
1. 59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 25:41
  
  41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  devil: the one who leads astray; the mind;
  angels: messengers; thoughts;
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Where's the source for the information your posting?
  
  General assumption? Personal theory?
  
  Everything you read is not a metaphor, this is not poetry.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Forgot the smiley James:
  
  That last statement seemed just rude. Unintended, although I do believe it's true, I wasn't attempting to be ugly.
  
  Sorry bout that...
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, Let's slow this down and take it from the top.
  The first mentions of "satan" or "devil" is in Torah, the writing of Job, Zechariah & Chronicles.
  
  In Hebrew, satan is a verb meaning primarily to obstruct, oppose, to be at odds with, to adverse (adversary). It is not a noun as in Satan or Devil.
  In Greek, devil diabolos, is a verb of the same definitive as the Hebrew, meaning to prosecute or accuse; tempt into; excite; oppose; find fault.
  In Arabic, devil shaitan, is a verb meaning to stray, distance from, opposite to.
  
  The added article "the" defines anything in the two languages as proper names. A court prosecutor is Diabolos or Ha-Satan, but not once in the Hebrew or Greek "New Testament" is it used in proper noun form regarding a "rogue angel".
  
  In the Book of Wisdom & Scripts of Moses, a devil is a human being who brings death to life (the first being to do so would be Adam). adjective
  
  In Apocrypha, Talmud & Hasidic, satan is not an individual entity, but an agent or tool used by Creator to test the hearts of man for faithfulness; righteousness --as in Job or Abraham being tested. adjective
  
  In 2nd Enoch, Grigori, is described as a being -- the Watcher -- or Ruler of Angels -- which is precisely where the concept of "the" Devil; Lucifer; Satan (as the proper) comes from. It is a spin off of the pagan belief system of Baal (as in the priests of baal that Elijah destroyed).
  
  Happy Tuesday-Wednesday!
  James.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God Bless You James.
  
  No matter what your beliefs.
  
  God Bless You....
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
51
paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
A man who jumps hiself from a high rise building cannot blame the Creator-God for his death; he himself is responsible for his death.

Likewise

A man who does not obey the commandment of the Creator-God and remains at a distance from Him purposely; creates his own abode in Hell.
reply report
0
brotheryochananposted 13 years ago
You said
"In God's kingdom on earth, as each one is resurrected, those who were especially evil will have to "pay" for the persecutions on others that they caused..."
judgment is not the reason for the millennial kingdom. The millennial kingdom is so GODS O.T. people can experience Christ.

At the time of judgment there will be 2 judgments:
the white throne judgment (unsaved)
the judgment throne of Christ (saved)

Judgment happens after the millennial kingdom.
reply report
74
Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago
Funny how some people are quick to condemn God and or Christianity ,but offer no solution for the worlds mess? which incidently man created via greed ,power, self (what will this get me) attitude.
reply report
1. 77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Look under greed, power, hell, satan, war, and money, it's all in the holy book. Like a 1000 lawyers at the bottom sea , the book is a good start.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And everyone loves to single out Christianity..
  
  Sure, the Holy Bible is where evil is.
  
  That's why 90% of the world that 'doesn't' follow any of it are so evil, because of a book they 'don't' follow.
  
  Real cute.
  reply report
2. 58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity has been around for centuries and has dominated the world. The solution is obvious.
  
  ... and Christian beliefs.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  AHHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHA
  
  Your ridiculous...
  
  Christianity dominates? Look the word up.
  
  Christianity didn't even start until 15 AD. (Even better, I was corrected - 50 AD)
  
  If it dominates, show me a single government claiming it that is still standing?
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, I happen to have a wiki page up for the list of fallacies that you are unaware, here is what it says:
  
  Christianity began as a Jewish sect in the mid-1st century. Originating in the eastern Mediterranean coast of the Middle East (modern Israel and Palestine), it quickly spread to Syria, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor and Egypt, it grew in size and influence over a few decades, and by the 4th century had become the dominant religion within the Roman Empire.
  
  Oops, looks like your asking me to look it up backfired on you.
  
  What do governments have to do with Christianity dominating the worlds religious landscape? Where do make that connection?
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "within the Roman Empire."
  
  I'm done here.
  
  Discuss with yourself Wiki man...
  
  Byes
  
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I can see how you were done from the get go and how you purposely ignored the quote that essentially refuted your claim. I can only conclude you know very little about your own religion.
  
  You said:
  
  "Christianity didn't even start until 15 AD"
  
  ... while the article indicated:
  
  "Christianity began as a Jewish sect in the mid-1st century"
  
  Yes, I can see how you need to run away as your claims continually get knocked down in the face of facts. You must be extremely embarrassed for knowing so little about your own religion. That's all part and parcel to how religions start wars.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, Of course...
  
  I'm very embarrassed, thank you for correcting me.
  
  The date was a estimate as Jesus began teaching at age 12 in the synagogues.
  
  Talk with you another time.
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Again, that is not correct. I added the bold.
  
  "The members of the Temple-Sanhedrin, who on ordinary days sat as a Court of Appeal, from the close of the Morning Sacrifice to the time of the Evening Sacrifice, were wont on Sabbaths and feast-days to come out upon 'the Terrace' of the Temple, and there to teach."[9]
  
  Sometimes we hear this passage explained as if Jesus were teaching the teachers, but that misunderstands the context. The listeners would be sitting on the ground at the feet of the teachers, who were also seated. The rabbinical style of teaching used questions on the part of the students, from which discussion would rise.[10]
  
  In the course of the discussion, this intense boy of twelve was both listening and asking probing, insightful questions that indicated to all his depth of understanding. "Understanding" is the Greek noun sunesis, "the faculty of comprehension, intelligence, acuteness, shrewdness."[11] Everyone who heard Jesus on this occasion was struck by his understanding. The Greek noun is existemi, "be amazed, be astonished, of the feeling of astonishment mingled with fear, caused by events which are miraculous, extraordinary, or difficult to understand."[12]
  
  At age twelve, Jesus is listening to teaching in the temple during Passover. But 20 years or so later, he is the Teacher in these same courts, and his many, many hearers are still struck with his insight and authority.
  
  Hope this helps your understanding of your religion somewhat.
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That dose not make sense, Jesus only lived to age 33
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Here's the math:
  
  12+20=32. Hope that helps.
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The famous teacher of love and the world champion of taking soul did it all between 32 age and 33 age, all in one year.
  
  I think you better check your facts more clearly, there seem to be a mistake, its ok we all make our fair share of them.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So, you want me to check the "facts" about a "myth"?
  
  Sorry, but I am only able to glean information from religionists who make those claims. I seriously doubt they are working with facts.
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then why did quote vector7 to prove him wrong, either way, just this one ,does not make sense you usually do make sense.
  
  You quote
  
  Again, that is not correct. I added the bold
  But 20 years or so later, he is the Teacher in these same courts,
  
  Don't worry I won't think less of you, just own up
  report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You can find that here:
  
  http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/2_39-52.htm
  report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  At age twelve, Jesus is listening to teaching in the temple during Passover. But 20 years or so later, he is the Teacher in these same courts, and his many, many hearers are still struck with his insight and authority.
  
  That mean he could have been teaching all along from age 12, almost all Christian do agree on is Jesus die at age 33, one the rare things they almost all agree on. There were way too many stories about Jesus teaching to all be done in one year.
  report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Again, have a look at the website I linked.
  report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I looked at your link, this the the part I found that relates, There is so little about Jesus account obout his age and what he did at that age
  report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I will give you that you may be able to catch me in a lack of some kind of information. I've not studied as long as you may think, just harder than most, leaving a plenty of information to gain.
  
  But Christ Jesus is irrefutable and so are His words. They have lasted 30 times over your age untouched, and will never be silenced.
  
  And no one is forcing you, we are 'warning' others, for only God is the judge.
  
  Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Warning about sending most people to hell is not healthy.
  
  Jesus specks more about hell than heaven in his holy book. In my books, it only creates fight clubs on earth, sorry I am a lover.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All those claims are the same.
  
  While we cannot 'prove' Hell exists to you, you cannot prove it doesn't.
  
  The number of compelling facts arguing Christ's truth in Him and His words are absolutely astounding. Not to mention the fact that there IS a creator considering that each cell in your body proves irreducible complexity which proves that we are NOT some 'accident', but rather engineered.
  
  Furthermore, it's somewhat obvious that everything in physical existence has a equal but opposite force reacting upon it, and I do not believe for a second that this is a coincidence. ( just like they thought humans were a coincidence. )
  
  Light and Dark. Heat and Cold. Good and Evil.
  
  Notice anything?
  
  Light - Presence of something : Dark - Absence of that something
  
  Heat - Presence of something : Cold - Absence of that something
  
  Good - Presence of something : Evil - Absence of that something
  
  All this said. Hell is a very rational argument if the absence of "God" which is "Good" is the absence of ALL THINGS GOOD. And Christ Jesus words are pretty solid considering His miracles are verifiable even by those who oppose Him.
  
  And to warn people that there is 'danger' is not wrong, bad, or 'not healthy'. In fact, IF HELL IS REAL, as I claim it is because of Jesus' teachings - then to warn others is the best thing I could possibly do for anyone.
  
  To tell people, 'don't drive down that road it leads to a cliff and you might drive off' is not bad or wrong in ANY way. Anyone that says it is wrong to "HELP" people is dilusional.
  
  And it does not cause fight clubs. I am not in a club, nor do I fight anyone. I tell the Gospel which is the "good news" that Hell can be escaped, and that God has saved us. And I pay a very high price to help others as well as I am bombarded constantly and criticised excruciatingly without end. But I love everyone, just as you say "...sorry I am a lover." so am I. Warning other people to check things to see if we're right is wrong? And when did I lose my freedom of speech? Everyone seems to have freedom to speak demeaning statements with harsh underlying implications about the stupidity of Christians especially when we tell people we love them, but we are not suppose to give people other than yourselves the "good news" because why? Because YOU have made up your mind on the subject? That is not a reason to silence us, as everyone deserves to know and EACH PERSON gets to decide. I don't cram things down people's throats, they follow me, attempt to undermine my statements, and then claim I do.
  
  God Bless You,
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Seems you just don't know very much about your own religion, yet you believe deeply in that which you don't know much about, quite the contradiction in itself.
  
  What's even funnier, is that you have a non-believer in your religion who constantly has to correct your misinformation.
  
  LOL! Famous last words.
  
  No one wants your threats, thank you very much. Please stop threatening people.
  
  More famous last words?
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I never threaten people, I only challenge people, and if they can't handle it, it's their problem, arguments and a debate is not my bag, I’m a lover.
  
  I am spiritual sided not religious, the only thing I do religious like is doing my artwork and exploring nature. I do not claim a GOD or claim is capable of knowing gods form, there is no contradiction to have because people already know mainly what is right and what is wrong. Yet, god is a private thing that does work for me and I share with people who want to know how I see everyone as god. I don't subscribe to any righteousness only the love theme.
  
  Show me this constantly correcting my misinformation by anyone. I know my business of fact finding, I would lose my job at museums if I didn’t.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Hope this helps your understanding of your religion somewhat."
  
  I don't need your help, or your sources either, that you didn't state by the way. Who knows who wrote that biased opinion.
  
  Luke 2:39
  
  39 And when they had performed everything according to the Law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth. 40 And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom. And the favor of God was upon him. 41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover. 42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up according to custom. 43 And when the feast was ended, as they were returning, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. His parents did not know it, 44 but supposing him to be in the group they went a day's journey, but then they began to search for him among their relatives and acquaintances, 45 and when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, searching for him. 46 After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.
  
  There's your basis for my statement. Accurate on Him teaching or not, I understand my God.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Biased?
  
  http://www.jesuswalk.com/lessons/2_39-52.htm
  
  Notice that nowhere in that quote does it agree with your claim that he was teaching.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You must be skipping sentences again, I thought I noted I admitted I may have been wrong there?
  
  Glad you posted your source, maybe I've cleared up that's a given when using them.
  
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No pun intended there Bee..
  
  reply report
  74
  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is your religion based on Wikipedia?
  
  I think your splitting hairs.
  
  Jesus asks "Who do you say I am?" not Julian Assange
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What would that mean?
  reply report
  74
  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Means dont sweat the small stuff
  
  I enjoy Wikipedia,but I respect Gods word more.
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! Sure, whatever you say.
  reply report
3. 61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Eaglekiwi, Exactly, People prefer to make up their own morals, and make a mess of things such as the the things you stated above, and then turn around and blame it on God. Jesus is the answer for the world today.
  reply report
59
vector7posted 13 years ago
To anyone following the side arguments that prove useless in which I indulged so many times. I certainly apologise for encouraging such nonsense.

Technicalities always lead down endless winding roads, with no point or sight of conclusion.

I'm sure Beezledad will have some sort of amazing reflection on this post, as he always does.

~Daniel
reply report
60
BobbiRantposted 13 years ago
Why would God need to torture us in a Hellfire situation? Living here with the human governments, diseases, disasters wars, famine, you name it, is torture enough. I doubt He is sadistic enough to place us in Hellfire.
reply report
1. 77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ...and most Christians do think most of us will end up in Hellfire.
  
  mmm... non sense
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is strictly because of what they have been taught by wolves in sheep clothing. 99.9% of "Christians" in any form of the science, understand what they either think is truth, or what was melodiously sung into their ears over years, by these ministers.
  
  The concept of Hell was from the Hebrew. Under the Law, such a stasis existed to house spirits until the judgment of the Law came. Again: The Law (of sin/death). This was the Great Throne Judgment mentioned by John in his revealing of the work of Y`shua Moshiach.
  
  The Law had to be fulfilled. And with the fulfilling of the Law, Death was judged also, since millions of spirits had died from Adam to Christ.
  
  When the judgment as complete you will note death & hell were tossed into the lake of fire --done, finished.
  After which the FIRST resurrection occurs & immediately, the New Kingdom ushered in.
  
  So, if the text is correct, Hell no longer exists.
  What does exist is judgment of Works under Grace, which do not lead to Hell, but to the outer court --and a loss of the freedoms in Grace. A pile of ashes v a pile of jewels. A lack of entrance into the kingdom of heaven ( and the fulfillment of the work of Eternal Life void of death ) in each person.
  
  James.
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you can sell to all Christians that Hell does not exist, don't you think they will lose most of their Christian memberships? Most people are kept in group control by fear.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe, but it shouldn't be as such. These are the commandments.
  
  Matthew 22:37-40
  
  37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
  reply report
  0
  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, as the text states:
  The meek shall inherit earth.
  
  Meaning: those lacking faith shall die in body;
  but those of true faith, shall not taste death in any form...
  
  Something to think about, no doubt.
  
  James.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh dear James...
  
  I really want to try and agree sometimes, but I can't jump off the faith gives you magic powers cliff.
  
  And I'm kind of unsure where that came from, . As I don't have a clue what it relates to in either of the above 2 posts.
  
  But I love ya buddy, and you do manage to put a smile on my face sometimes...
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
59
vector7posted 13 years ago
Matthew 25:41-46

(Jesus)

41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
reply report
71
Alastar Packerposted 13 years ago
A rational and sane comment BobbiRant.
reply report
1. 77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hell is only here on earth, luckily I know very little about it.
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  who is on earth?..
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do not believe in hell for our afterlife, we only create our own hell here on earth. I feel sad for ones that believe in hell forever thoughts stuck in their minds with fear for life
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  true...i completely agree with you...hell and heaven are one earth only...i dont believe in after life...it is programmed used to control humans...
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think there can be an afterlife, I would not claim to know. Man is incapable of knowing what the spiritual world is, until man get there and experience it.
  
  Nobody has come from the spirit world yet, to tell us the true story.
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  fair enough...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Plenty claim to die and come back during near death experiences.. (Even pronounced as completely dead by the physicians and surgeons)
  
  As soon as "...Jesus..." comes out their mouth, or "...Hell..." everyone decides it's a lie. They even have doctors and nurses first hand accounts of this stuff where people know things they shouldn't know because they were "dead" during the time of the occurrences.
  
  You should check it out. If your not too skeptical that is.
  
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Near death experience is result of last attempt made by brain which releases a chemical...dont read too much into it...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They do know everything.
  
  Now how about that proof there is no God?
  
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how every time you ask us to "check it out" we find contradictory evidence to your claims.
  
  Reality does not seem to agree with you.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how I give people the choice, where as you tell them what you what them to think.
  
  reply report
  58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What choice would that be? Heaven or hell?
  
  How about this choice? None of the above. Am I allowed to make that choice?
  
  And, who are you to offer these choices to people? What makes you better than them?
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Off subject again are we?
  
  Choice to search for truth or not.
  
  I love you.
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  51
  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And nobody who died like Jesus died in India would come again physically;yes, metaphorically one could come; like the Promised Messiah 1835-1908 has come.
  reply report
60
furnituremanposted 13 years ago
"Fear is not needed. God wants a creation that will obey because they love him, not because they fear him."

I like the above statement. Although I quite disagree with you in the idea that there is no hell, I agree with you in the above line. Hell is not an idea of man. Rather, it is clearly stated in the Bible regarding its existence to punish those who deserve punishment. It would be unfair for the people who have been following the will of God if the evil ones are not punished of their wrongdoings. Will you be happy to see in heaven the one who caused you to be miserable? If there is no hell, people will just do every bad things they can imagine. God loves us but he is also just. He rewards the good and punishes the bad. Thank you. See you in heaven, hahaha.
reply report
1. 62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "It would be unfair for the people who have been following the will of God if the evil ones are not punished of their wrongdoings"...that is exactly why men created idea of hell...there should be some reward for people who obey , ok ,let us create better place than earth...let us see what are issues which humans face on earth , minus them and that is how heaven came into being which exists in human minds...in same way comes hell...again whose existence like religious god is no where else but in human minds...when christ said kingdom of heaven is within you , he was exactly saying this..it is no where else but within the creators of heaven and that is human mind...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Personally I agree with you on one thing. People make what they want to up in their minds.
  
  But I haven't made God up. I grew up in church and doubted the whole time until the age of 25. 25 years I doubted God. I can't be told God doesn't exist any more because I laugh every time I hear it. I know. I don't believe friend. I KNOW.
  
  Why do you think I undergo such persecution? Because I like the idea of God?
  
  No No... If God wasn't real I would still be the party man I always was. And I'm still 25, so no it's not easy... I've still got plenty of testosterone to fight against.
  
  I can tell everyone this. If they make it their goal to find God. They will see He's real.
  
  The attitude I see is God is this, and God is that. How do they know? They just said they haven't seen Him and can't prove diddly..
  
  Jesus said 'seek' and you shall find. God doesn't want someone who goes, "Hey God, you up there man?........ Hmm, guess not."
  
  I'm laughing too hard. It's just ridiculous everyone thinks God owes them something, like they gave Him life or something. Not a single person on this earth made themselves exist or gave themselves life, but they sure do feel powerful enough to tell God what He is, that He doesn't exist, and even sometimes where He can shove it. How do you know better than a being that is ALL KNOWING?
  
  Imagine playing chess with a God who organises thousands of years of people to accomplish what He wants and still does no evil in the process. Who says God is evil? The person God made???
  
  Ok, I'm done - I'm sure this will spark some anti-God flames anyhow. I'll be long gone by then, you guys prove anything you want. But you should work to prove to yourself that He really doesn't exist, cuz if you look super hard... He'll come to you...
  
  I love you all you crazy hoots...
  
  ~Daniel
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i understand most believers dont consider themselves important enough that they can ask god and make him accountable and if believers did think they were important , god concept would die the next day bcoz the very all loving concept can't survive the scrutiny of facts of nature...god which is not accountable can survive but god which believes in justice , fair play and love wont survive the scrutiny...it is good for religion that believers consider themselves unworthy of demanding , asking and questioning god...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry. Just said I done that for 25 years...
  
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you mean to say you were on right track for 25 years and you gave up...it is ok...such phases come in life...as long as you are happy with what you are doing , i am fine with it...god is awesome concept created by humans and as long as concept works for positive side ,why should i mind it...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "you mean to say you were on right track for 25 years and you gave up"
  
  I said exactly what I wanted to, not what you said in the above quote. That is your statement about what you want me to say.
  
  I thought Christians were the ones shoving ideas down people's throats?
  
  I didn't say that at all... Please let people read what I said. I don't need you to tell them or me.
  
  reply report
  62
  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  oops i didnt know you were addressing people , i thought you were answering to my post...sorry i misunderstood you...
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's quite alright. I still love you like the last 20 times I said it. That's what God is about pisean... Love. lol
  
  I thought you knew I wasn't directing it towards you. I will say I commend you extremely highly as you are the only person who has attempted to be considerate.
  
  Thank you pisean.
  
  reply report
  61
  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  vector, Wow, We have to give God the glory for greatly touching our lives.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes we do WOC... God is great.
  
  reply report
2. 58
  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? And yet, there have been generations of peoples who don't believe in hell, yet don't do the bad things you claim. And, in fact, crime statistics are much higher in religious societies.
  
  Again, reality is much different than you can imagine.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I said nothing of claims of bad things people do.
  
  reply report
60
mrkterhuneposted 13 years ago
God loves everyone who loves Him.
reply report
1. 77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If evevyone is god then you can always love god
  reply report
59
vector7posted 13 years ago
To all those I've spent time attempting to persuade...

You may take offence. But it is because God loves you.

I will be praying for you, earnestly and sincerely. Not because I decided to, but because it's what He told me I should do.

~Daniel
reply report
1. 81
  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your condescension is noted. Typically it seems. Please leave me out of your prayers and the aspirations of your god.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  don't burn out your knees.
  reply report
  59
  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  reply report
  81
  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Did you understand the word condescension?
  reply report
  77
  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I never understood that word, until the assumed god o mightiest, judged the hell out me.
  
  Guess what, no more fear of hell.
  reply report

Post a Reply

jump to first post

Necessary
HubPages Device ID	This is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons.
Login	This is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service.
Google Recaptcha	This is used to prevent bots and spam. (Privacy Policy)
Akismet	This is used to detect comment spam. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Google Analytics	This is used to provide data on traffic to our website, all personally identifyable data is anonymized. (Privacy Policy)
HubPages Traffic Pixel	This is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.
Amazon Web Services	This is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy)
Cloudflare	This is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy)
Google Hosted Libraries	Javascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy)

Features
Google Custom Search	This is feature allows you to search the site. (Privacy Policy)
Google Maps	Some articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Google Charts	This is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)
Google AdSense Host API	This service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Google YouTube	Some articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Vimeo	Some articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
Paypal	This is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook Login	You can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
Maven	This supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)

Marketing
Google AdSense	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Google DoubleClick	Google provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Index Exchange	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Sovrn	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Facebook Ads	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Unified Ad Marketplace	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
AppNexus	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Openx	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Rubicon Project	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
TripleLift	This is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
Say Media	We partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy)
Remarketing Pixels	We may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.
Conversion Tracking Pixels	We may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.

Statistics
Author Google Analytics	This is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)
Comscore	ComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)
Amazon Tracking Pixel	Some articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)
Clicksco	This is a data management platform studying reader behavior (Privacy Policy)

God had not created hell

Arts and Design

Autos

Books, Literature, and Writing

Business and Employment

Education and Science

Entertainment and Media

Family and Parenting

Fashion and Beauty

Food and Cooking

Games, Toys, and Hobbies

Gender and Relationships

Health

Holidays and Celebrations

Home and Garden

HubPages Tutorials and Community

Personal Finance

Pets and Animals

Politics and Social Issues

Religion and Philosophy

Sports and Recreation

Technology

Travel and Places

About Us

This website uses cookies

God had not created hell

Related Discussions

This website uses cookies