Take the 'science' and outer space doctrines for example:
Does christianity sound less weird to me because that's what I was brought up with? Or to an outsider, does every religion, including christianity sound weird?
Interesting that the north star (polaris, in the constellation of ursa minor) is located near the edge of the galaxy and is also kobol, located in the black hole at the center of the galaxy. I wonder if it scoots back and forth each day, coming out where we can see it at night and going back to the center in the daytime?
Religious "science" is always a hoot!
Yes, they all sound weird. Probably because they are all based on imagination instead of solid observation.
If you lay out the religious 'god' based beliefs side by side they are all patently bizarre to anyone outside of them. Inside their world reality it all seems reasonable and certain, but then so does the world of a frog in a well.
do they all sound equally weird? Just wondering if christianity sounds slightly less weird to me because of indoctrination?
If the stories and concepts are familiar they would look - well - familiar ?
I was raised a catholic and, although it became very clear to me very early on that it did not add up and was only held in place by fear, the symbols and icons along with the words and the specific meaning words are part of my vocabulary. It also became very clear to me that the higher up the religious tree they are the less they actually believe what they preach. The priests really gave it away, the simple types who weren't very clever and related better with people were quite compelling until I realised that they had the equivalent of a degree, albeit in a bull@@it subject, but still a degree at a higher level. The top end are lying in their teeth as managers and directors of a huge religious corporation and the dimwit sheeple provide the bread and butter.
Christianity: God demanded blood sacrifices for thousands of years, but then decided that we didnt' have to do that any more. So, being all powerful and all, he decided that the only way he could remedy the need for blood sacrifice was to impregnate a virgin, and then eventually have his son (who was actually him)(?) tortured and killed and then resurrected. Then you had to eat the flesh and drink the blood of his son according to some folks, or you had to be dunked in a river according to others, or you had to recite some certain words according to others, in order to avoid eternal damnation.
Oh, and one time God flooded the entire earth and two of every single animal (plus all their food) (Genesis 6:19-21) somehow fit onto this wooden boat that an old dude built and they floated around for a few weeks until god decided it was cool to unflood the earth.
Or was it 7 pairs of some animals, and one pair of other kinds of animals (Genesis 7:1-3)?
Yeah, my guess is, all religions are pretty weird.
and I suppose the making a rib woman out of a dirt man & all evil in the world as a curse from a woman eating a piece of fruit after a talking snake told her to is pretty weird too
and having men cut off their foreskins - and using foreskins as bounty to prove how many people killed - hmmmm, yucky
There is also another disturbing twist that bugs me. It's okay for God to strike dead anyone he chooses, but if a human does that, they are a murderer. I don't understand how God being a justified murderer is a good thing. It's still morally wrong. It's not like he doesn't have options about what to do with problem people. He's God, afterall. He's the one with ALL the options, right?
The whole things doesn't make sense.
yes, that bothers me a lot. And also his parenting skills are non-existent - what kind of pyscho parent would punish all generations for the first mistake of their child?
And to insist that humans all worship him & stoke his ego, otherwise they burn in hell? Sounds like a despot like Hitler
To me the non-religion or atheism is no less weird than the untruthful religions.
Every strata of human society is a mix of normal and abnormal or weird persons. Atheists are no exception.
The same might be true for the Hindus, Christians, Jews and the Muslims.
So all groups have ups and downs and work out average normal
There could be individuals who are better and some are extraordinary, no doubt; I don't deny.
But on the whole I don't see atheists producing any great people like Buddha, Krishna,Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad; the religionists have a long list of such people but I have mentioned only some from them.
The atheists have none; to my knowledge.
One may add to my knowledge; I don't mind.
Most professional Scientist are Non believers in God and science has more political bases in most countries.
Einstein said. The world without Religion is lame and the world without science is lame
It is science which Religions has more issues and problem with than with Atheists
Famous historical atheists:
Percy Bysshe Shelley and his wife Mary Shelley (who wrote Frankenstein)
H. G Wells
Oh dear. I think that just killed your "atheists have never produced great people" thing stone dead. Try again.
I did not say, "Atheists have never produced great people" Yet, most of the long lists of great Atheists, atheists do sent me. Most of them are not self proclaimed atheist.
Everyone I just mentioned was a self-proclaimed atheist. Percy Bysshe Shelley even wrote a book all about the benefits of atheism.
You are so right about the Fear angle, every religion uses that and have done since day one.
I think it is only because of the fear that and by hanging the various words, 'Religion,' 'God,' 'Church' Etc. on to any half assed organisation that wants to set up in that business, and yes it is a business, that the authorities and powers that be shy away from doing anything about them.
If it wasn't labled Religion half the things they come out with would brand them as insane and the men in white coats would arrive.
In the real world it's called dellusion.. in their world it's called belief !
The Mormons have quite unique beliefs compared to most Christian religions. The biggest insult to Mormons is not that they are a cult, but rather they are not Christians. They do believe that Christ is the premise for their beliefs, but that Joseph Smith was the conveyor of God's message.
Most of Mormon belief predates Judeo-Christian belief in a "premortal existence" which explains why and how the universe and world came to be and what earth life is supposed to be about. And therefore, it also includes after life where valiant people are rewarded with universes and kingdoms of their own to reign as gods over their own creations, but still subservient to God the Father. This is broadly termed as the Plan of Salvation.
The book of Abraham was supposed to be a manuscript which Smith came upon and translated to discover it is the record of Abraham. However Egyptian scholars find that Smith's translation has no correlation to the hieroglyphs found in the manuscript. Additionally, the people of South America, according to the Book of Mormon were direct descendants of the Jews of Jerusalem, who sailed the seas and made a home in the Promised Land. However, DNA testing shows no link to the Jews. And the Book of Mormon looks as though it may have been "inspired" by another book that predates it by about 6 years called "A View of the Hebrews" written by Ethan Smith (no relation to Joseph) who lived in the same region.
Yes, Mormonism does sound odd to other Christians, but then Hinduism sounds odd to Christians, along with a lot of other religions.
And further, if you want to get weirder and get into metphysics and existentialism, you can always take a look at "A Course in Miracles", which bends everything we thought we knew into an illusion. This life is just an illusion and we are trying to "awaken" back into reality where God actually is. (http://acim.org/)
So on the whole, Mormonism isn't any more strange than any other brand of religion, as far as I can tell. They are all weird to me.
Hmmmmm........ a very logical response. You seem to have studied more than most. I appreciate the well thought out comment even if I don't agree with it all. Cool.
I have plenty of loved ones and family who are LDS, so I have a pretty good understanding. I love my family very much.
I've also studied a lot about other religions, and I find them all remarkably corrupt and frustrating. Because of my intimate experience with the Mormon church, I find it to be about the same as the others.
maybe you could write a hub with a small collection of each one's bizarre beliefs? Could be very interesting - I liked how the article in the first link I posted was written - very amusing.
I saw a selection of creation stories from different religions - the garden of eden really didn't sound much better than the gods laying a golden egg
is it the muslims that believe there are virgins in heaven waiting for them?
Sweet delusion is what i'll call mormonism,as they prefer not to insult anyone regardless of disagreement. Yes, they're pushy with beliefs and also have strong brainwashing sessions for kids during development phase. They don't ask their kids to kill other humans unlike staunch christians or islamics. This is what my observation is with mormons so far.
Yes I can relate to that - I had a guy who was Mormon working for me at one time, he was a simple sort of guy, quiet and civilized. He would not talk to any of hte others as they 'profaned' and the only conversation we had was how I had been military and he thought it was sinful to even think about killing another person, naive maybe but a commendable attitude.
yes I think that's a good description.
I know a lot of sweet, peaceable ones but there are plenty of militant ones. The numbers run the same through most any group of people. Certain percentages of mild mannered ones, militant ones, fanatics, perverts, etc. It's just a part of humanity. There are no greater or lesser numbers in any demographic, I don't think.
I recently did a book review hub on the fanatics - the fundie LDS (I wrote LSD at first - might be appropriate). The FLDS were okay in their strange religion until they had a pervert leader elect himself as the next prophet & it became a dangerous cult
You can't hold religion to scientific principles. Doing so misses the entire point. Religion operates on MYTHS not SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL ENTRIES.
Myths are metaphors. They use points of reality to bind stories that impart moral or cultural values. Some of the points of "reality" aren't very real if held up to scientific standards. But that doesn't matter. The point was never to really answer the scientific inquiries, but to frame the moral or cultural point.
Arguing against a myth with scientific evidence is like shooting a lake. It doesn't matter if you hit it.
You want to undermine a religion, you have to prove 1) That the morals or cultural values it supports are invalid, or 2) That its institutions are corrupted beyond repair. Pointing to flaws in the stories will get you nowhere.
Surely it is important to live in the real world and not one that someone has made up, no matter how well intentioned that person may be.
Life is about reality and you cannot make up reality and I think that is the only point at issue, nothing to do with science or anything else.
You either live in a real world or a deluded one, seems fairly straight forward to me and so far not one person around here has offered one single fact that justifies belief in a religion or a God that makes any sense other than it makes them feel good !
If that's the case, Fine with me, whatever get's them out of bed in the morning just don't try to justify it as making any logical sense.
But SO many people subscribe to a false reality. It's invented in their heads, and they do everything they can to protect that little bubble lie they live. Religion is just one way a false reality can be created. And even though we may look at other's sense of what reality is and question it, it certainly seems real to them. Hence the difficulty in making those personal shifts of thought and paradigm to accept reality for what it is. We color our realities with our thoughts and perceptions.
All of which is true, however my point is wouldn't it be nice if they joined us in the real world.
Even if it's just long enough to see what a screwed up mess it's in and perhaps it's time to stop waiting for the second coming or God to come along and sort it and maybe WE need to do something for ourselves !!!
Or is that too much reality to swallow all in one go ?
I agree, Merlin, but I also think you're right—it's probably too much for most people.
One of the extreme problems I see with most religions is that they teach people to WAIT to be rescued and saved (by God) from the awful lives which they themselves created (for the most part) instead of learning life's lessons in reality and doing something to save their own arses. If there is a God, why would he deny people of such valuable learning as to rescue them from all their stupid mistakes?
Doesn't make sense. At least to me.
I have travel the world and been to some terrible places but some of the most religious countries I have been to are also the most God forsaken, I never understood how or why !
One clue I did stumble across was the constant use of the words "Allah will provide...." and the worst thing about it is the fact that they have to believe it or else !!
doesn't make sense to me either. It's like people just want to escape reality all the time, whether by drugs or religion
I think Shades got it right about the myth of religion and the power of it. It justifies anything unreal as "miraculous" and what God wanted, therefore, it's plausible. But in actual fact, there just isn't any real evidence to it. The power of the myth and superstition in religion is really quite remarkable. And sad.
Personally I agree with you. Life based on fiction is problematic, for the believer and the non-believer who must suffer the believer's idiocy... if there is manifest idiocy.
The point I would like to add, however, paying devil's advocate (lol), is that not all people of faith fail to recognize the difference between metaphor and reality. There is NOTHING wrong with allowing a metaphor to guide you. I would be willing to bet you can, and perhaps even do, operate under the principles taught to you through metaphorical stories. Something like"The Little Boy Who Cried Wolf" for example.
You've always struck me as a reasonable and independent type, and I bet you heard that story as a lad. Your parents or whoever told you that didn't intend for you to take it literally, but as small kid, you might have believed it was true for a time. Whether you did or didn't believe it ever, the bottom line was, through it, you learned (or had reinforced) the moral lesson that you should handle yourself in a certain way, not make a fuss, be disciplined in your work, self reliant, respectful of other people's time, etc.
So, in principle, there is nothing wrong with getting one's principles codified through stories, be they fable, folktale, parable or myth.
For fun, let's say I totally believe in that "Little Boy Who Cried Wolf" story. Let's say that my people have put that one in our holy book, and I believe if I "cry wolf" I will be eaten by the wolf demon of my faith. Now, let's say you are my neighbor. What difference is it to you WHY I am polite and respectful to you, and don't bother you unless my neighborly need is dire, etc.? Isn't it good enough that I am an awesome neighbor?
Life based on myth only becomes a problem when it involves flying planes into your house or tossing you on a pile of burning logs because we think you are a witch.
To live in any social group all communities need certain rules, back when I was young families were responsible for the upbringing and introducing those rules, and yes where necessary enforcing those rules.
Today most of them don't bother and boy are we suffering for it.
Yes one of the stories was the boy that cried wolf, how often did we use the "Mum I don't feel well" to get out of school. Propably like me one or twice too often.
The modern equivelent would be who pays any attention to car or house alarms.....
I suppose your point is the stories just got more elaborate in certain communities and people went along with it just to fit in and keep the peace until it became a habit !
It's as good a definition for Religion as any but it doesn't quite explain the 'Loney Tunes' varieties....
Great stuff, Shades. Very much in agreement.
But even when proven that a religion's morals are corrupt with plenty of evidence, the power of the myth still seems to hold. The power of superstition that if you go against the myth that you will be damned, etc. Really subversive, mind copulating stuff.
watch the southpark episode about john smith it shows how mormanism came about really funny. i think its called "mormons can be fun"
I don't think any religion has a monopoly on strange beliefs. Whether it is the entire universe being created in six days, the dead coming back to life, walking on water, every species of animal from every part of the world fitting into one ship, talking snakes, flying chariots etc. It does all have a childlike fairy tale quality to it. Why any of these ideas should be considered to have any more reality to them than the tooth fairy or Father Christmas is hard to understand for someone not of the same faith.
There dose seem to be a hell of a lot of people out there who are walking around processed by fear, like my pastor brother. They would rather fear and fight than to switch to ultimate power of unconditional love in which connects to a friendlier World.
Still, they are people with limited social program that are no better or worst than you or I. Question is would you like 6 neighbors who are Christian living next door to you or 6 atheist neighbors?
I had a Mormon business partner a little stricter yet not as strange as a whole country being force to be Muslim. To be to force to live by the concept of hell would be hell on earth as far as freedom is concerned.
the mormon fundies live in the fear of hell. check out my hub about sex abuse in religious cults for some books about the FLDS - I've read a couple about the FLDS - very scary stuff
I have many neighbours, both friends and strangers and I have no knowledge of their religious interests if any.
Doesn't seem to matter or effect our lives and to be honest it's none of my business one way or the other. In the years I've live in the area the subject of religion or anything to do with it is hardly mentioned.
Many of us do charity work and help in the community, sometimes at the request of the local churches or the the local social services. I'm Pagan, a least one of the other volunteers is a Muslim, from their head covering there is a couple of Jewish in there as well.
One thing we do have in common is a great sense of humour and a horror of the days the Mormons or JW's hit the area en masse !!
What is scary is who started these so called religions. If a con man and a science fiction writer are not suspected by all these people, then think what kind of scam someone without a record of making up stories could pull on people in the name of religion.
god made Earth out of remnants of other planets - that's whether the dinosaur bones are supposed to have come from. And salvation is about getting your own planet that you make out of old planets. That's where celestial marriage comes in - having lots of wives and children to populate your own planet - how people got sucked into j.smiths ideas, I don't know
And don't forget the magical underwear! What fantastic nonsense.
in the FLDS cult I was reading about, they were made to wear full length underwear under their full length clothing, even in hot summers.
here's some comments by people that used to wear the secret/sacred underwear
sound impractical going to the toilet
looks like J.Smith originally instructed for use of full-length underwear, hence the fundies insisting on this
You add three 0s to the earth being6,000 years old, in the Bible. That still comes out ,that the earth is only 6 million years old,
The immortal jelly fish is 650 years old
Dose anyone in Religion do math or is that a myth too.
I shared many single room hotels with my Mormon business partner all over America for 5 years. Never once was allowed to peek at his magical underwear. That’s very hard to do with a very curios person like me
apparently the ancient mayans were good at maths. they ate people too
Yes The Ancient Mayans were obsessed with time, and their calendar was in some ways more accurate than our current calendar.
It was the Aztecs that were known for cannibals
oh, did I get them mixed? Many cultures practised cannibalism, some until quite recently
Living in the Belize almost any where you dig, much of the land is filled with Mayan artifacts; Today lives 250,000 people lived where there were 30 million once lived
Mayan's were the most civilized culture in the Americas, no cannibals that I know of. The strangest thing about Mayan’s is they believe in the end of the earth in 2012.
I'm not certain of that, I do not think the Mayans believed the world would end in 2012. Do you have a source I could read that confirms it?
No, its true!!!
Don't stop spreading the lie.
Can you imagine the financial opportunities surrounding the 2012 doomsday belief???
Randy told me the Mayans calendar just runs out at 2012; The Mayans do not predict about the end of the world, it's just Christian hype.
Makes most sense to me.
I have heard mix views from the Mayans in Mexico and Belize some say it will end and some say it will not end. Because Christianity has such an extreme struggle holds on communities down there. I can’t understand the heavy brainwashing going on. They have Day of the Dead, a huge festival and parade in every town in Latin America, it’s a frightful sight.
if you want to learn more about the LDS Church Go To RULDS.Weebly.Com
I recently visited Salt Lake City and spent a couple of hours at Temple Square. I have to say I was "pleasantly" surprised. I was introduced to aspects of the religion I was completely unaware of. Very impressive. Are we as a society (as maybe in politics) to be so closed mined to any "new religious beliefs?" No one religion has all answers !!!!! as in politics !!!
But on the whole I don't see atheists producing any great people like Buddha, Krishna,Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad; the religionists have a long list of such people but I have mentioned only some from them.
If everyone was great, we would be all God like and Satan would be no more, why threaten us with religious rules, hell and wars?
I'm not a scientist, but someone once said to me "Uranus is a black hole"
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