It occurred to me, since prayer is a powerful thing, a prayer from a confessed atheist would pack a pretty powerful punch. It could conceivably bring about the miracle we've all been in agreement we'd need, if we were to agree on anything.
It would probably take more than one of you. In fairness to all religions, we'd need you to pray to just a general all encompassing idea of a Creator.
I suggest something simple, like let the sun come up tomorrow. I wouldn't think you'd want to try anything too difficult to start with, but I am open to suggestion.
Please, if you do decide to participate, post your prayer (to those of you that don't know how it works it is not like a birthday wish. It can still come true if we know it).
Good luck and let's all keep out fingers crossed.
Believers keep saying that, yet the starving die daily as a result of those prayers.
You are correct sir. Those who believe could certainly put their minds, and prayers, to better use during the serious moments of their day.
They do, some here have prayed to Jesus to send their kids to Disneyland, and their prayers were answered, praise Jesus!!!
Unfortunately, tens of thousands starved as a result of Jesus being far too busy making airline and hotel reservations.
please tell me you're joking about the first thing you said. That is quite sad someone would use faith for a vacation. Even sadder they would feel the need to share such a ridiculous notion.
Sorry, but those are indeed the claims of believers right here on these forums. One would suspect it a joke, but those who made the claims were dead serious.
Of course, many such claims about prayer have been made public here. Nothing new.
Notice how dangerous religious beliefs can be?
I'm truly sorry to hear that, although they sound more irritating than dangerous. I am beginning to get it though.
Oh no, it is extremely dangerous, far from just irritating.
I hope you don't consider me dangerous too. I don't want to change anyone's opinion on the cosmic scheme of things. I like everybody so far just the way that they are. Love to hear their thoughts. Ok, that may not apply to a few loose screws, but for the most part is honest.
Do you follow a cult with beliefs that are not grounded in reality? Does the cult demand you worship it's god and that no other gods shall come before you on pain of eternal damnation? Does your cult ask that you evangelize it to others?
I don't think I follow a cult, but if you would describe my beliefs as one then I can answer honestly no to your other questions. I'm sorry, it appears I've hit a nerve. The forum was presented tongue in cheek. I did not mean to offend.
I'm afraid I don't understand the question. I do consider myself to be a Christian, but I refuse to be defined by another's interpretation of the word. I think you are asking that I align myself by your interpretation of it. Your interpretation is so horrible I could never perceive considering it to be a valid way to live.
I'm sorry that you cannot see your religion as little more than a cult. The only real difference is that one could argue whether or not Christianity is an exclusive system.
Cult: Followers of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices.
In response to your last post, wow. I thought you were brighter than that. Not sure you've got my vote anymore for the part of Oz. you have broad definitions when it suits your purpose, and narrow ones when they do. But, you know what they say; variety is the spice of life. I'll continue to enjoy being exactly who I am. Not an easy thing when you're the lone person in your cult but at last I'm not attempting to impress a faceless peanut gallery. I like my way better.
I have no idea what you're talking about, I don't make up definitions to words, I use current definitions from their source. So sorry that the definition of cult is almost the same as the definition of religion.
It is not, and you know it. Cults arise from many avenues. If it is your argument that any type of fanatical behavior is a religion, please state that. Then, we would have to agree as to what constitutes fanaticism. By your standards then one could assume atheism is a cult. Which I would never be rude enough to believe.
Sorry, but the definition of a cult does not include "fanatical behavior" - however, we can find oddles of fanatical behavior within Christianity, which I'm sure you'd agree.
Here's what I have as a definition:
Fanaticism: Excessive intolerance of opposing views.
Yup, Christianity is rife with fanaticism, even right here on these forums.
Not according to the definition of a cult.
OK, OK. I get it, this is a joke. Very funny. It took me long enough to catch on. Sorry for bring so slow about it. You are truly the king of comedy. Anyhoo, are you ready to post your prayer?
Well, then in my opinion, you are a very fanatical guy. BUT, that's Ok by me. To each his own.
maybe you did hit a nerve in my belief, but not my religious belief. I simply consider it difficult to fathom how anyone could be so difficult as you have displayed yourself to be. My belief is, that people have a right to be who they are, without others trying so hard to beat what their opinion of some sense is into them, so to speak. Call me crazy. Maybe pink was right and my post was inconsiderate of your delicate sensibilities. If I am in any way responsible for your behavior, please accept my apologies.
How was I difficult? Presenting definitions?
So, now I'm fanatical and difficult?
Sure, people can join cults. It's when the cults beliefs begin to infiltrate society in order for change based on those beliefs. For example, homosexuality and Christianity.
Clearly, my skin is much thicker than yours.
What behavior? I have no idea what you're talking about.
Ok, I do get where you are coming from now that you said that about homosexuality and Christianity. The rabble rousers have been evil when it comes to that issue. I don't think your skin is as thick as you'd like me to believe, but I'll not argue the point. But it is still my stand that, at times, you appear to be fanatical and display delicate sensibilities. Just an opinion.
Focusing on you? LOL. Ok, to the subject matter. You have made at least one thing clear to me; there are those who have hijacked the name of Christianity to such a horrid extent that it is time to stand up and speak my mind. I'll try harder to do that. But they are not, in my opinion, the true face of Christianity. That is the best you'll get for your conversion efforts here.
oh, and thanks a bunch. you really broadsided me with all of this. I was actually laughing when I hit the button to post the forum. You definitely threw a wet blanket on that.
That's nice, but you'll quickly find that those who you accuse of high-jacking the name of Christianity are quite adamant they are good Christians doing the work of Jesus.
Interestingly enough, that is exactly what usually happens when a belief system is forced to face up to reality. It usually finds itself with no basis or foundation other than that of pure faith.
Don't get me wrong, I usually don't attribute the religious believer to be bad people, they just follow a very bad ideology.
Hey, all kidding aside now, please help me. I think somebody just posted something very hateful down in the forum. Can I unpost this forum? I don't want to see what was meant as a spoof to turn ugly. I would take it as generous favor on your part to tell me how to do that, if it is possible.
Whether you've been threatened or not, I don't want to be responsible for any thing like this. Are you going to tell me how to do it or not? I'm not near a computer right now so it would be very tedious to try to search for an answer on the droid. Please? Have a little mercy on me. I honestly didn't realize that would happen.
Well, that's no help. I don't see a delete button anywhere on this thing. Arghh. I'll figure it out when I get near a computer. I just hope I do it before any one else posts. Thanks for the advice.
Maybe the cult doesn't, but I've been to a couple of seminars that do require such allegiance and proselytizing. Even political groups are organized like bad religions.
As for prayer, I'm not prone to do it. Although I do think meditation can bring peace and focus and help one to be grounded.
In short, there are more pervasive organizations in the world than religions. As for God, if you find him/it, you have to search inside, not out. I think if you do connect with "God" you really only discovered yourself.
Then dont ask a non believer to do something they do not believe in. If you like everyone just the way they are, then leave them that way.
It's a joke pink. A few people actually got it.
oh wow then excuse me for not getting the joke.
@Just curious. I just feel off my chair from laughing so much. That's the funiest post I've seen for a long time. The tears are running down my face. Atheist prayer, indeed. How much? In dollars...
What do you know, what atheism is all about ...
Thanks for posting Cagsil. I was pretty sure this one had a good chance of going straight to the unanswered forums category.
I would think the only prayer having a chance of fulfillment would be the one to the non-god of please, non-being, don't interfere in any way with reality.
Thanks for playing. That's a pretty bold prayer. I think there might be some disagreement between the camps as to if it comes true or not. I guess you'll have to make the call on that one. I'll trust your judgement.
(That's a pretty bold prayer)
Wow, that's creepy - it already came true - and I didn't even say it out loud, yet. I guess that's proof that the non-being reads minds, too!
Something easy. I'll pray for 3 days to get an ipod. I'll compare the results of 3 random days not praying to get an ipod and I'll tell you how it goes.
Very nice idea. If you get one, please remember to post the picture as your evidence. I'll take your word for it, but I've been accused of being too trusting. It appears most everyone else is of a different mind set.
Wow, if there is a god, your wasting his time on ipods and wii games. Thats nice. Too right though, let those kids starve, let those wives get beaten, i need an ipad.
I think that spookyfox just meant to test his praying powers out first, with something like an iPod or a Wii because they're both inanimate objects. You wouldn't really want someone to try out something so dangerous as a powerful atheist prayer on live women and children would you? That would be irresponsible in the extreme, not to mention against said children's and wives' human rights.
WHAT???? Ok, so when did us non believers become Animals?
"You wouldn't really want someone to try out something so dangerous as a powerful atheist prayer on live women and children would you? "
What the tripple F is so "dangerous" about an athiest talking to god? That is the most rediculous thing i have ever heard of in my entire life, and ive been around for 27 years. That is alot of days walking around hearing some incredible crap.
Against human rights? Well than everytime a christian prays for me, than that is against my human rights, and believe me, ive got one praying for me every day and it really burns my toast.
Let me tell you something, if there is a god, any one of us could say whatever the hell we wanted into the sky. There is no "danger" that god is going to somehow listen to one of us praying for someone to die in an accident or something. I mean, unless you can explain to me the dangers of this man praying. You believe that he will pray and a small child will get eaten by accident or something in the process? Hes a non believer, hes not retarded. I think he can tell the difference between praying for peace and praying that the playground gets shot up. You really pissed me off lady word. Seriously, i hope im taking what you said the wrong way, because if not, the christian mind os more dangerous than i imagined.
Lmao! Oh my word, you silly sausage Pink Umbrella! My comment was made in a totally tongue-in-cheek manner. You did indeed take what I said in completely the wrong way. And I'm an atheist, by the way. I don't believe in the power of prayer at all.
That's incredible that I pissed you off so much, just because you didn't understand the 'tone' of my online voice. I guess that's the danger of speaking without emoticons!
'I think he can tell the difference between praying for peace and praying that the playground gets shot up. '
I just re-read this. I'm afraid I don't know what on Earth you're talking about Pink Umbrella. I don't remember saying a word that had anything to do with a playground getting shot up. I really do think you got your knickers in a twist over ... well, nothing at all really.
Also, why does it burn your toast that a believer prays for you every day? If someone prays for you it's because they care, and because they believe they are doing something that will benefit you. I'm an atheist, as I said earlier, but even I can see that someone praying for me is a well-meant and thoughtful gesture. I take it in the spirit it was intended - the spirit of friendship and love.
I pray that god shows you the error of your ways, lifts the blinkers from your eyes and helps you to stop being so selfish and evil as to deny the one true god.
Oh - and it looks as though pink umbrella was not responding to you at all. She accidentally quoted you, buty was replying to some one else.
OH MY GOSH. THIS WAS A JOKE. HOW DID IT GET OUT OF HAND? PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO UNPOST THIS FORUM. I PROMISE I'LL NEVER POST A JOKE AGAIN. AND I APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE WHO'S BEEN OFFENDED.
all you've done is highlight how pointless praying is
Oh. Good point. I should have prayed for an answer on how to unpost this forum.
Anyway, it was a joke. Poorly thought out obviously. I promised myself I would apologize to anyone offended once it became clear my sense of humor had been misunderstood.. If you were insulted, please accept my apologies.
I don't think you're alone in offending people Obviously I have too!
Well, the longer I post, the more obvious it becomes that some might have overly developed delicate sensibilities. It's a growing mystery.
Probably best to ignore those overly developed delicate sensibilities and keep on doing what ever it is you want to do in that case huh?
Bet that is what Jesus would do. I don't recall anything in the bible about considering other people's feelings when it comes to preaching God's word.
Well, I do. But to be honest, I don't see expressing an opinion on a free society as preaching.
Call me crazy.
Why would I call you crazy? I don't blame you for ignoring those overly sensitize people who think they are being viciously attacked when they are not. They believe all sorts of rubbish.
Morning Mark. I must not be awake yet. That went over my head, big thanks for not blaming me for whatever I've done. Very Christian attitude. I will attempt to emulate your sensible nature on this subject.
That is where you are missing the point. I am emulating the Christian approach. Amazing how many people get offended - on the flip side. Weird huh?
I saw that. I actually thought your post was nice. That is so weird, but I think you taught me a little something.
See, theists are thick headed, but they can be taught. Slowly. I wonder if the same thing holds true for atheists? I suppose that's the next question I can explore.
Exactly what would you want to see an atheist learn?
And I take it you are speaking just for yourself rather than all theists - because that is patently untrue. I especially love it when I get told I am irrational for taking an absolute position - seems most of them are merely hedging their bets and enjoying the vicarious power of speaking for an Invisible Super Being. In any case - I have converted to ignosticism.
That is so cool. I had never heard that word. It, pretty much, describes exactly how I feel about this while issue. You're a very smart guy.
Thank you. I have been looking for a way of saying how silly this is and that seems apropos. You did not answer my question though. What would you like to see an atheist learn?
What you just said, I think. Nobody knows. Conversation helps us come to a better understanding of what we believe and why. I just don't understand how anyone can believe they've figured it all out, or think anyone is capable of changing another person's opinion. No one can change my opinion by insinuating that I am somehow ignorant.
Maybe I'm just not as smart as the next guy. Maybe I'll take a forceful stand one day. Who knows. Stranger things have happened.
An ignostic was asked whether he believed in God, and said, "If you mean a big man in a cloud, as children conceive of God, then I am an atheist, for we have satellites now which would have surely seen such a creature if he existed. If you mean an all-encompassing God who is synonymous with the entire universe, then I am a theist... though I see no reason for having two words for the same thing. If you mean a vaguely-defined supernatural being whose existence cannot be tested, then I am a theological noncognitivist; it doesn't matter whether a meaningless thing is true or not, and I won't worry about it any more than I will about invisible pink unicorns."
Your incomprehension knows no bounds it seems.
You define it - I will disprove it. Remember - infinitely improbable is pretty improbable.
Straight to "name-calling"
Dear Me. Who would have thought...
No - I said you did not understand. That is what "incomprehension" means. Is that name calling? I would not have thought so.
Sorry - I did use a big word - I will try not to do that in future.
Interesting thing, this "offence" thing.
I have NEVER offended anyone in the politics forum.
No-one has EVER offended me, in said forum.
Why is that?
Oh, maybe 'cause I don't get involved in that forum.
Maybe, just maybe, all those who have been offended in the religion forum will learn a lesson here.
But, I doubt it. I think they enjoy the conflict too much.
Well, you've just offended me!!!
Hi aka. I think you hit the nail on the head with the part about enjoying the conflict. It is unfortunate, too. I'm interested in what those with other beliefs have to say, but it is difficult to get past what I perceive as the conflict with a few.
I'd LOVE to find out what it is like to discuss "religion" with believers, TOTALLY uninterrupted by hecklers, naysayers and antagonists.
I am totally convinced it will NEVER happen here on these forums. At least not until it becomes moderated. That's another thing I doubt will ever happen, either.
Oh well. We'll just have some fun in the process.
Fun in the process is my attitude too. I've definitely irritated a few atheists with that attitude. I tend to respond too flippantly to what I perceive as rigidity. Oil and water, I guess.
Well, yes you're probably right. I find the atheist view quite interesting, when they tone the disdain for me down a notch or two.
but believers can't even agree with each other
(I APOLOGIZE TO ANYONE WHO'S BEEN OFFENDED.)
This is God.
Your option, though: pillar of salt or death by slingshot?
LOL. I hadn't come back in here because I was embarrassed when it was pointed out I had offended some people. Glad I did. You're hilarious. Bring on the salt. I deserve it.
Waiter: One salty dog, no rocks, straight up.
God: No, you mean straight down.
I know what you mean, Spooky, it would be unnecessary to pray for an ipod because it's only common sense that certain things do not need to be prayed about.
All cults (shortened word for culture) have allowed other humans to starve --or charge them this thing called money (paper currency, metallic rocks called gold, silver, etc) to purchase things that have been growing on this planet --according to evolution-- long before humans came on the scene.
Show me a Atheist or the collective Atheism that is providing unlimited food/shelter to any human in need. Just one, please.
Perhaps, just maybe, Atheists should collectively pray they would fully understand the humanism they crow about and become the "do-good" people they claim to (want to) be.
Else, at least pray they can drop the selfishness, adopted by their former belief system and grow a pair.
Aren't the prayers for Jesus to provide bread and fish not enough?
The miracle of the five and seven loaves of bread and two fish.
Looks like Jesus only did that as a show, considering he hasn't done anything like that for 2000 years.
It was probably faked some how.
"Show me a Atheist or the collective Atheism that is providing unlimited food/shelter to any human in need. Just one, please."
Atheists aren't a group of people in that way. Why would people gather for sharing a lack of a particular belief? Do non-street-racing-fans gather every week to specifically discuss non-street-racing issues?
Most your posts are absurd and you generalize constantly, without being specific or clear. Being so broad and general sort of hides the fact that you don't really grasp some concepts well.
I see, so you also still cling to your sensationalist past.
Why Am I Not Surprised!
--You said: "Atheists aren't a group of people in that "way"...
That "way" meaning they are a group of humans? Perhaps spread across the planet, but still a single or collective ideology/commonality, none-the-less. So, they are just as redundant as the theists, now aren't they?
Thank you for observing most of my posts so closely, flattering. I shall have to do the same for you at some point.
I am broad on purpose, as individuality --here on HP-- results in constant banning and banter. And the concept of your belief systems I get very well and still shake my head in amazement, the sheer stupidity of such "gametes populus" of self, selfishness --a complete disdain yet complete indulgence of your own humanism --to both destroy and satisfy/protect that humanism from none other than yourselves.
Irony is not without a sense of humor.
Thank you, enjoy your rejection.
"That "way" meaning they are a group of humans? Perhaps spread across the planet, but still a single or collective ideology/commonality, none-the-less. So, they are just as redundant as the theists, now aren't they?"
You managed to, either on purpose or not, avoid the point of my post completely. They don't have a collective ideology, that's the point, they lack a certain collective ideology which other people have. The word atheist only exists in contrast with the popularity of religion. Should I call myself an a-pop, because I don't listen to pop music? Would you define yourself by what you don't do or believe? Why do you group people based on negatives?
It's fine talking in general, but you also need concrete examples for your posts to make at least some sense..
I was thinking of a-going to the I'm-not-James-either a-rally this Saturday: I don't suppose you are a-going, too? Maybe we could a-meet for a-coffee and a-Danish?
--They don't have a collective ideology
Really: the defined term Atheist means one or many who conclude the belief (which is an ideology) that there is no g/God. The entire concept of Atheism is based solely on theism. It is the concept of self governing --a very whitewashed but coy form of humanism.
So, either you do not understand what you are or you are lying (to yourself) to protect your humanism. Which is it? Atheism is no different than the former sensation (or any other string theory religion --of the combined duality : science, theology) once lived in passionately -- now despising that very shiny new and purposeful non-ideology you are in -- loathing the former and shamelessly using their techniques of hostility, fear, hodgepodge, etc? Bravo!
As I posted once, Atheist are like teenagers...
I do not define myself by pro or non objects. But all humanists define themselves by either what they are now, as opposed to what they were or what they are not as opposed to what they are --and more recently what they believe they are and/or can be.
Still, the wheels on the bus go round and round....
If you cannot make sense of my posts, perhaps you should not read them. Else, find a translator who does.There are many Hubbers who do understand what I post.
The lack of belief in something is not the belief in the definite lack of that something. I don't deffinitely believe there are absolutely no unicorns, I just assume there aren't because I have no reason to do the oposite.
I the concept of the Earth being round based solely on the flat Earth model? All the possible geometrical shapes the earth could have is no basis for it to be the way it is; the same way that you yourself being an atheist towards countless gods doesn't define you in a particular group of believing in the non-existence of Zeus, Mythra, Horus, etc.
Are you incapable of using concrete examples to expand your upon points?
What concrete examples would you prefer, based on your statement:
The lack of belief is equal to the much of belief --as both expressed, by application --pro or con. Therefore, atheist and theist are identical in nature. Especially with examples like this --a perfect cypher of humanism!!
Your very admission provides an example --although not concrete-- that atheism is an erratic sensationalist belief system.
How can anyone provide concrete when there is no place to pour it?
That is the most on the mark post I have seen all night. Good thoughts.
"The lack of belief is equal to the much of belief --as both expressed, by application --pro or con. Therefore, atheist and theist are identical in nature."
Saying something over and over with different words doesn't make it true. It seems you're so focused on lack of proof, that you think I should believe you just because you state that something is the way you say.
The belief in something motivates, whether it's the belief in something positive or negative. And you will find gatherings of people who share that belief, or who march against something, etc.
The lack of belief is more passive. As I pointed out in the examples you keep ignoring, you don't see gatherings to celebrate the sharing of a particular disbelief.
I'll give you one more example to ignore:
If you had a person who lived in relative isolation from everything related to outer-space travel, they'd have no particular reason to believe or disbelief the moon-landing. But by default they'd not believe in it. Even if someone came along and just told them, they might remain skeptical, which would be understandable. Such is the lack of belief.
On the other hand, let's take someone who has been alive during such event, and has seen it televised, and is convinced that it was fake, a hoax. Such is the believe in the lack of something.
More passive than? Sorry, I am not buying that.
All beliefs pro or con are equally passive, active, passive-aggressive, deniable, sensible, logical, useful, purposeful and full of it as the other.
Well, since you are using semantics now, versus concrete examples, as you requested [of me], I will reply semantic. Fair enough?
The gathering of disbelief -with regard to atheism v theology: Hubpages forums, the Church of Atheism, Richard Dawkins and many more. [Sorry, only had a few concrete examples]. So, though not as organized and organic as theologies, Atheism --still a by-product of theism-- is still a gathering of persons remotely or in-room regarding the polar belief in question.
Now, with your induction of mechanics, it further adds semantic aloofness to the argument, as mechanics are influential and gather countless masses pro and con to it. So, nothing can be verified. The point however, from your own words --yet again-- they are identical in nature and equal in expression (as noted by both watching the same event via a third party mechanic) and concluding hoax or otherwise.
"More passive than? Sorry, I am not buying that.
All beliefs pro or con are equally passive"
See? You just took what I said, ignored it, and replaced it with your own idea. I said, the lack of belief is more passive than the belief of a lack of something, and even provided some examples. You just went ahead and talked about belief again, I didn't say a negative belief is more passive than a positive one, in fact I said they're the same!
I have no idea what the Church of Atheism is, but I'm assuming they don't discuss the lack of a god per se (which would be the supposed belief according to you), but other things like religious opression and rejection in some societies. I fail to see how Richard Dawkins constitues a gathering, but I'm assuming you mean all the talks he's given and debates he's participated in. Well that's not really disbelievers discussing the lack of a god to other disbelievers, they're debates with both sides.
When slavery was abolished, there had to be meetings including people against it. To part from there and say than pro-slavery people are the same as the other side, just because they both revolve around the same particular subject, now that's simplistic.
By all accounts they are the same -pro or con. Why, how? Because of the subject in question. If any has a causal stance pro or con, they are equal in nature, diverse in expression.
That is the Pragmatic !!!
So, my stating atheist or a theist are identical is true. Identical in belief and disbelief.
They share the exact same ideology no matter how they pre-tend or pretend not to.
This is unveliebable, are you reading what I say?
It's not just pro/con, you seem to be obssesed with duality, which is surprising since it's as humanistic as a concept can be. There are pro and con beliefs, but there is also lack of belief. What part of this are you not getting?
If someone points at a box and says "there's a sandwich in there", and you had opened the box before and saw that there was, you might positively believe that there is. If you didn't see any sandwich you'll believe the opposite. If no one told you there is a sandwich there, and you had absolutely no reason to suspect there might be (as you have no reason to believe there might be a cat, a shoe, or countless other objects), is that not a more passive approach?
In other words, the matter of something in particular being or not inside the box doesn't come into consciousness (activity). Whatever you might believe or not about what's possible to be in the box is unconscious (passive).
I am passive towards god. I don't strongly believe he exists nor that he doesn't, I'm just more inclined to think that way. What I do strongly believe against is the most popular idea of god and many religious doctrines: that humans are a direct creation of it, that what we feel and our moral laws are universal, even when Nature doesn't correspond to it, the idea of an afterlife and everything that denies the here and now, and of course the fact that it divides people and all the atrocities that can do and has done.
I don't believe in the deffinite lack of a god. I believe strongly against the effects religion can have on society and individuals. By atheism I understand not needing god, not needing him to love our neighbours nor the Universe; not needing him to tell me what to do and not to do; not needing him to tell me how everything came into being; nor needing him for moral and emotional support, as mean to avoid emptiness and loneliness and purposelessness.
It's unfortunate believers still have to make stuff to support their beliefs. Concrete examples, indeed.
can you provide proof of precisely how those titled believers are "making it up" to support their beliefs (which would be your beliefs as well, just expressed in the polar connection)? Concrete Example please.
James - I know you need to defend the believers but this is just another "you cain't prove it ain't so - so it is."
The burden of proof is yours.
Why is it mine¿
Aas my request was for proof of the believers making "it" up...
Happy Saturday-Sunday Marcus.
Because you are the one making the claims. The fact that you choose to apply a different set of standards to yourself than you do to people who dispute your irrational claims is actually one of the root causes of the conflicts surrounding the god-thing.
If you actually believed the things you claim to believe - you would never have even asked the question. But - like all believers - you are applying the "do as I say, not as I do," approach. Thus - I draw the conclusion that you are "making it up."
Have a good first day of the week yourself.
(can you provide proof of precisely how those titled believers are "making it up" to support their beliefs )
All sides are missing some basic points, here. The only thing that can be established without debate is matter exists - or to put it another way, existence exists. This is the default position.
Any movement away from this default position requires an explanation, so those who posit creation and a creator must then explain in rational fashion how this creator accomplished this creative event.
The thest then claims, god created mattter, which is nothing but assertion. The atheist then responds, no, god did not do it because there is no god. This is an error in rebuttal. It is not a refutation but a counter-argument. Both sides then get mired into a quagmire of proof and counter-proof, all based on opinion.
But the question of whether or not god exists is not a subjective one, but an objective question. Atheist belief does not make god disappear, while theist belief does not make god pop up at the mall, handing out chocolate halos to all the good little girls in minis.
God exists or does not exist by definition.
The proper response is to show that the unwarranted claim that god created matter is irrational. To create objective criteria for comparison, the word exist must have a precise and unambiguous definition: exist, physical presence, that which has shape and location. We no longer have to argue whether or not god can or cannot yada, yada, yadi. All we have to do is take out our list and mark it with checkmarks. Shape, check. Location, check. O.K., boys, god is that box of Wheat Thins on aisle two.
Or we take the more etheral description of god as love, as spirit, as disembodied mind and do the checkmark test: Shape? Shape? Shape?
We sound like Ben Stein calling out the missing Ferris Buehler's name.
No shape, no god. No location, no god. Quck, easy, painless. End of argument.
We sound like Ben Stein calling out the missing Ferris Buehler's name.
Exactly. And to further add, it is opinion and definition --allotted by humanism-- that enables the various properties of that necessity.
I think belief depends upon the individual and a group of people. However, a group can easily pursuade someone that doesn't have a belief...no one can force anybody to actually believe in something unless they experience something phenomenal. To believe in something makes us wake up in the morning because we KNOW that the sun will rise, unless the Universe decides to make a change. There will always be debates between people on whether or not to have a belief. For me, in my personal experience, belief does NOT have to have proof, it a feeling that is aquired. And how I acquired that feeling is through faith, faith in which makes me breath each passing day.
( For me, in my personal experience, belief does NOT have to have proof, it a feeling that is aquired. And how I acquired that feeling is through faith, faith in which makes me breath each passing day.)
I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. Hmmm. Let me see. Hmmm. O.K., let me try to simplify what you said into its relevant components.
1) belief is a feeling that is acquired.
2) I acquire that feeling through faith
3) faith makes me breath
So, before you acquired belief, you didn't breath?
Wow, god does indeed move in mysterious (and deadly) ways.
James, I completely understand what you post. Very good points.
It is important to thank one and only God who created the world.We do not exist by chance but it is the choice of one God.Unbelievers don't disgrace the position of that mighty God.They will get no reward at end.
Perhaps, that is because some have acknowledged that most reward/punishment schemes and systems are antiquated and do not work or serve any purpose, for the most part.
Many do not waste their time trying to fulfill these ridiculous schemes and systems but instead look to enrich their lives, instead.
Same implements to you too.Just another wannabe trying to do something different from the world and trying to get people attention.The positive message positive.Wrong concept sadly...
(Perhaps, that is because some have acknowledged that most reward/punishment schemes and systems are antiquated and do not work or serve any purpose, for the most part.)
Actually, B, psychological studies show that the most powerful system to modify behavior is intermittant positive feedback.
In other words, leaving heaven or hell as a crapshoot should work better than a strict reward/punishment system. LoL.
i dont live my life for a heavenly food pellet at the end of the maze.
(It is important to thank one and only God who created the world)
Spoken like a true witch doctor.
But I have a better idea. Why don't we all hold hands, sing Kumbaya, and exorcise 'ol Satan right off the planet, and then we'd have nothing left on Earth but Christian zombies chanting endless hossanas, a Holy Films, Inc. remake of Dawn of the Won't-Ever-Be-Dead.
We'll make enough in overseas release rights to cover the costs of the gold streets and the 10 billion harps.
So you're going to make pink invisible unicorn stuff and ask others to disapprove it ? and keep on with rhetoric by turning another question of ' you made PIU' to those who disagree with you ? Even in that case, burden of proof is still on you. If you or believers didn't made that up then why it's hard to prove it ? afterall burden of proof is not so worst stance for those who have proof in pocket eh ?
I didn't make "it" up.
not the belief or disbelief.
Yet, apparently that is what is being asked of me -to make it up.
Yet, I was requesting a "non-believer" to provide this proof they claim to have. And the "believing" apart from rhetoric, books, etc.
As for those who disagree, both sides do the theist and atheist.
If I make something up, I would certainly back it up with valid expressions, not pseudo flip-the-script narcissism.
Me having proof does you no good. Either of you.
That is what I find HYSTERICAL!
But nice try on flipping-the-script. Enjoy your life.
@Twenty One Days, aka James
(Me having proof does you no good)
Of course not, as proof is simply that which is presented to convince the jury to accept your argument as a valid one - proof only coincidentally applies to reality, i.e., it is an accident when proof and reality collide, because proof is not meant to prove reality but to elicit agreement.
So, no I cannot prove nor disprove that god exists. I can, though, explain rationally and objectively why god cannot exist, and the key term to understand is the unambiguous definition of "exist".
For the following presentation, exist is defined as physical presence, that which has shape and location.
Now, either god fits this definition and is a physical presence with shape and location and therefore exists or god does not fit this definition and is only a concept without shape or location and does not exist. God either exists or does not exist by definition, not by faith or opinion. Either god is like a chair, a physcial object with shape and spatial separation from all other objects, or god is like space itself, a formless void with no spatial separation, i.e., nothing.
If there is no physical object god, there is nothing.
End of discussion.
I do understand what you're applying, Winston.
And in that measure I agree.
There is no object entity -like a chair, bottle, etc.
But an interesting condition not often applied is: what if that object -being physical- is the entire universe and not a singular unit hovering on a cloud with a bolt of lightning in its hand.
Twenty One Day, aka James.
(what if that object -being physical- is the entire universe and not a singular unit hovering on a cloud with a bolt of lightning in its hand.)
One problem is that space is nothing, and the normally expressed concept of universe is all of space and matter, so there is no single entity we can point to as "the universe". The concept of universe then fails the exist definition. One could claim that god is all of matter, (somewhat like pantheism) but then that would mean that matter itself would be eternal and no creation could have occured.
What would then be the point - we may as well go all-out into pantheism and simply use a synonym for god instead of a definition: god=nature. Why use the word "god" at all?
The idea most have when utilizing the term "god" is of a motivated actor, a self-aware consciousness, which is then no more than a subjectively-held belief system. Anthropomorphism is applied to this concept in order to explain mysteries and the unknown.
It is a most human activity to try to find answers and think in terms of agents and causes - even if we have to make up the agents and assume their motivations are the same as ours. :-)
This doesn't make us bad people - but it does mean we are gullible at times.
What if the whole universe was god? You're saying what if god's physical presence is actually the Universe, right?
Wouldn't that be like saying, what if an object, is shaped like a chair, serves the function of a chair, but we'll also call it a cat?
If God is the Universe itself, where's the need for god? God is supposed to be previous to the Universe to be able to create it, if god is the Universe, it means god created himself, and being the Universe, the Universe created itself. Doesn't this defeat the purpose of god as a cause of all things?
If God is the Universe itself, where's the need for god?
There isn't a need --that's the whole point.
there is the humanistic desire to have such a need, and also a desire to counter that alternate desire --an anti-need. But both still a need.
Oh it's not at all hysterical if you dig it more deeply. It does make difference to many of us. Politics, society, marriage, laws,input to domains in science and many other patterns that humans adopted by assuming 'proof' will change. So yes, YOU proving this stuff is going to make a lot of difference. But if You assumed this stuff and forced onto others and changed the way humans are living over time will surely create hysteria, chaos and clashes. So you got the flipping-script ?
...which YOU --both sides of the redundancy-- are proliferating endlessly! But, its "important" to you, yes. It is so important that it is all irrelevant -science, religion, peace, war, chaos, marriage, politics, laws...
The proof both of you are looking for isn`t there and you`re never going to find it using your present methods of equation, mechanics, sensation. So either enjoy the finite-infinite duality on the roof of Quality (until it caves in) and don`t ask me to provide my proof, or a. provide the proof you both have (parody here?!) or b. jump off the roof and I`ll gladly show you.
Enjoy your life.
Not exactly. One group is making personal interpretations of each other's or ancestors observation and another group is only discarding it. I don't see it going endlessly, because many wild wet claims of one holy side are trashed over a period of time. So this will definitely end if one group stops connecting their part of fantasy to the irrelevant areas.
That was mean one - are you reading baptist church newsletter lately ?
lol. this is what most baptist preachers usually ask when someone questions them for proof.
Here's my Atheist prayer:
Oh, hydrogen, which art just about everywhere in the universe,
Hallowed be thy gravity.
Thy nuclei fused, thy big atoms were formed,
In the sun and then expelled,
Give us this day or at any time in the next several billion years,
Just enough carbon to make amino acids,
And keep out that nasty UV light somehow once it's not needed,
But get life going totally at random,
For thine is the power, the ability to make just about anything else,
Sooner or later,
very very nice. Since pcinix handed out a prize for best crazy theist response, I guess this thread should have a prize too. Some we were funnier than yours, but yours is probably the most appropriate.
Check with the front desk. We'll leave the prize there for pick up.
I tried and tried and could not generate enough passion to write an atheist prayer. I became such a unoptimistic crump and so pessimistic, I had to put in down.
You win on this curious, atheist don’t have a prayer, but either dose one way to God
Aw castle.I am so sorry. That is such a sad story I would have given you the prize for best prayer just to make you feel better, but some guy with a french sounding name already won it.
I'll be honest with you, I was somewhat surprised to find that most atheists don't have a sense of humor. I would never have guessed any of them would have taken this thread seriously. I was a little embarrassed when it got through my thick head. Too late.
I don't know how you can win a contest when the judges are at both extreme ends of the poles.
Atheists do have a sense of humor, but they didn't have prayer that you can herd cats by.
You can herd blind sheep by prayer
Perhaps your thread was simply not funny?
you're kidding? Come on, now that you're ignostic you can lighten up a little. You honestly don't see the humor? I was rolling on the floor at aka winston. Beelzedad too, until it became clear that he was serious. I did feel truly bad about upsetting pink umbrella.
No, seriously. Was it that offensive? Now I feel awful about it again. When aka came back as God and ' punished' me, I assumed I had misunderstood and everything was cool. Apparently not.
I do not get this place. Well, if you were among those offended, I apologize, but I just don't get anyone being offended by something they don't believe in.
Not offended - I just find you funny. Lighten up - your statements and beliefs are very funny. I thought you wanted a laugh?
Well - I am laughing.
Do you not agree on...
Science without Religion is lame, Religion without Science is blind
To be honest castle, I'm scared to say. Every time I post in this place I offend someone.
You could be misinterpreting single and double face palms for being offended.
I don't know what you are tailkng about. What are face palms?
The first reaction from reading your posts.
That is not an answer. What are you talking about?
Do we have to teach you how to Google "Jesus FacePalm"?
Actually pcunix, no. but it is not something I would google. Out sounds offensive.
You won't Google it because it might offend you, but you'll ask us to explain it?
As usual, your logic fails.
Ok, face palm. Got it. But I'm still confused that's my reaction to you sometimes. What does that mean when we're both doing out?
What it always means: your understanding is hampered by your belief in impossibile beings.
Oh. I get it. It's that thing I do when you don't get it. That explains it perfectly.
I've told you before: we get it.
We even get why emotionally needy people need to believe nonsense.
I am so sorry I have been ignoring your posts. IOt's just that Markhas changed his M O. So he's really funny right now, and I find Beelzedad interesting. You, I'm not sure our banter would be considered entertaining, or informative so I tend to ignore it until I'm bored. Prove you really have a wife and then we'll discuss if I really have an imaginary friend.
You're funny. You definitely don't know me.
So it's the power trip? You need something bigger and more important than yourself?
That is emotionally needy - whether you understand it or not. Father figure, fear, whatever: it is emotional need. That's why you reject logic and common sense.
Already have and you are quite aware of it. Surely you remember: you initially claimed that it was "full of fallacies" and then had to eat your words?
Saying you were right doesn't make it so. And I never said your logic wasn't flawed, in the big picture. Just ok in the little box you were coloring in.
You don't believe in magic, how do you explain Jesus quote, he is not from this world and his father?
I find magic in love and amoug many other things.
I guess it would be, how do you define magic. I see magic as spells and things. It would be man with an ability to manipulate reality.
The supernatural isn't magic, to me. It's just a different plane of existence, with a different set of rules we don't understand. That, at times, interacts with our reality.
If you see both as the same, then I guess I do believe in your definition of magic.
Sounds like "magic," to me as well. A different set of rules we don't understand? How funny. What a shame your religion causes so many wars.
Morning Mark. Apparently, my threats have fallen on deaf ears. Too bad.
As to magic, you really think miracles and magic are the same? Never mind, I forgot we're parrying, not conversing. I can't formulate a good comeback, so you win this round.
Look at it from the perspective of our reality. Both miracles and magic defy and violate the physical laws of the universe. In that respect, please explain how they are not the same?
Why am I being persecuted this morning? I was talking to Castle. Read the cool answer on the thread speaking in tongues. We talk differently to different people.
Anyhoo, the answer to the question would be: What is the source? If magic were possible it would be man having discovered a way to manipulate our reality. If it were Divine action, then I guess that would be just molding His play dough into a different shape.
Something like that. Face palm away beelzedad.
Why are believers so paranoid?
Speaking in tongues is one of the more bizarre rituals practiced by believers. I suppose you might consider it cool in a circus side show sort of way. Most certainly, lunacy at it's finest.
And there you have it, the introduction of a magical being (one who can manipulate our reality) in order to support the argument for the distinction between miracles and magic.
The persecution comment was a joke. The comment I was referring to on the other thread stated that talking to different people, in different ways, was a form of tongues. As to magic and miracles? Maybe it was a lame answer, but I still believe there is a lot we don't know about this whole universe, and whatever might be beyond it. I don't understand the throwing it all away without any thought on it.
Although you are correct in that there is a lot we don't know about the whole universe, there certainly is a lot we do know about it, and it is what we know about it that believers choose to ignore. And, what we do know about it does not in any way show that what we don't know about it will ever support the supernatural beliefs of religions.
Well, if you're going to put it that way, I would agree with that statement. But I'm afraid I can't get past a couple of facts that strongly argue that position.
I can't explain them where you would understand, or do anything but make fun of me.. It's just that the probability of them happening by chance is so far off the charts that it isn't possible it was by chance. I will be honest with you though, they did not happen at a time when I was particularly of a religious mind set. Yes, I prayed for them, but I didn't expect an immediate response. Sorry. I realize you are face palming at this, but I can't change the facts.
Maybe if you explained it to us, the best way that you know how, we could probably come up with some logical suggestions as to what 'Really' happened...or would that traumatize you to have to admit that maybe your 'miracle' was merely a result of chance?
I say this because I have a few similar experiences that I want to believe are irrefutable proof of the existence of some divine intervention...and sometimes it's hard not to believe it. Why? Because we simply want to believe.
You say that you can't change the facts. I say you don't know the facts.
I was diagnosed with a congenital heart condition when I was very young. I suffered from angina(chest pains) from my teen years forward---sometimes severe.
It was still detected, independently, by doctors upon my discharge from the military...then at thirty, I was on my death bed. I can remember the doctors shaking their heads. I even overheard a nurse say, "And how sad, he's so young." I made my peace and prepared to die.
"Miraculously" I made a full recovery, but I still had the defect...but 15 years later, there is no sign of the disease. and I have taken EKG after EKG. I could never pass an EKG before, even with a second opinion. The defect has disappeared, and I will probably live to be old.
...and this is just one of my experiences.
I didn't expect a response. You've surprised me. Interesting, but that could easily be explained away. Doesn't count as knowing, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there was a miracle, unless you're specifically looking for one.
My brother has gone through a similar experience with a heart problem.
Is that the most powerful argument you've had for belief?
Then I'm sure yours could be explained and dismissed as well.
Of course you are willing to hold on to your delusion, because, somehow, your ego allows you to dismiss, objectively, someone else's miracle while stubbornly holding on to yours as if you hold some kind of superior insight into what a miracle is.
This is utterly absurd...nothing but ego.
I posted a reply, then thought better of it and deleted it. Now after reconsidering, I feel that I should leave an answer permanently. I don't think you have the right to leave this on a way that I've been stumped.
In answer to the post; I was simply making a point. Anytime someone shares what they perceive as a personal revelation, it is open for ridicule. Which is what you are looking to do to me. Sharing would serve little point other than to give the three of you a few laughs.
I will say that I did not gain financially, health wise or in any way other than to gain insight.
What happened, happened within two minutes of the prayer being uttered. It was a very, very specific request. The answer followed the prayer, to the letter, yet was not the outcome I sought. What I got from this is that there is something listening. It answered by telling me I was a silly girl with a ridiculous request, and I would receive an answer as foolish as I was acting. There is no other way the chain of events could be explained. It was too bizarre.
And so you know, I was paying lip service to atheism at that time in my life. I was in college, not drunk or high, it was the middle of the week, middle of the day. I was in full possession of my faculties at that moment.
Call me crazy if you want to. I've tried that explanation too. I don't think its the right one. As always, I could be wrong.
You are wrong. It was coincidence and you are obviously very easily convinced.
My friend, who was a fellow atheist, has a son. One night his young son became seriously ill. My friend was afraid that his son was dying...and in a moment of emotionally charged desperation, he begged God to save his son's life. He promised, in return to serve God for the rest of his life.
His son recovered, and my friend became a devout Christian. I tried to explain to him that it was not his prayer that had saved his son, but that there surely was some kind of scientific explanation for his 'miraculous' recovery.
He would not listen to any logic whatsoever...this man, who had been an outspoken atheist had, in a moment of emotionally charged delusion, became permanently delusional.
So I know how you think that you got a message or answer from God by praying, but it is clearly a psychotic delusion...but I know that you, just like my friend, have closed your mind to any other explanation.
It's so sad. I really miss my friend. I lost him to a moment of traumatic psychosis...and he never recovered.
He now believes that God saved his son, but still allows children in Africa to starve to death daily...and he used to point this out to believers himself. I believe my friend(and anyone thinking this way) is mentally ill.
That has to be the most ridiculous post I have ever seen from a religious man such as yourself. If you thought that I would, in any way, take that as gospel and drop to me knees to say 'forgive me father, I have been so wrong' from that post; you might have been overstating the child prodigy thing. Or, perhaps, it is a delusion. Or perhaps you have mistaken me for catholic.
Your opinion means zilch. Nada. Without a rational explanation one is left to one conclusion. One conclusion only. I've run the numbers. Statistically, what happened was impossible. If you are capable of convincing others to ignore the reality they have seen, then I say bravo, I guess. There's a lot of people out there that like to be told what their opinion should be. I've never been a follower myself. If I were, I think I can state unequivicably that you would not be my choice for a sensei. Your posts are just not deep enough.
Noun 1. delusions of persecution - a delusion (common in paranoia) that others are out to get you and frustrate and embarrass you or inflict suffering on you; a complicated conspiracy is frequently imagined.
delusion, psychotic belief - (psychology) an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary.
I would think definition number two probably addresses the prodigy statement. Was the point of your post a confession? It is of little consequence to me. Don't worry about it.
How old are you? This has become like arguing with a pre-teen. Your responses are filled with nothing but anger and nonsensical versions of "I know you are but what am I"
You are incapable of intelligent mature discussion, and I have grown tired of your childish delusional attacks.
You have not intellectually responded to any of my assertions yet. All you do is sit, and fling your venom, viciously attacking my character. Look, if you need to slander my character, eventhough you don't even know me, please don't respond to any more of my post. Enough is enough.
Whoa. Settle down. Not sure what venom you speak of. You're not being persecuted getitrite. I am responding to your posts, on the I level believe them to be. If there is a problem, it ls squarely on your end, in my opinion.
You are welcome to stop posting in response to me. But if you ask a question, I will answer. It is who I am.
Yes, that would be one of the standard excuses used by believers. Yup.
I thought I had run you off with that one. Hmmm, I'll have to deal with the shock of your post now. I'm not looking to convert you with that disclosure. I'd need to be closer, lay my hands on you and pray.
Give me a break. I was simply explaining why the there is no God argument is an impossible leap. I am pondering changing my name from Christian. If the posts on this site are indicative of the average Christian belief then I honestly don't know how we're reading the same Book.
No, you didn't explain anything, that's the problem. Believers are full of impossible claims, but never any explanations, just faith.
You're simply being argumentative now. I am not expecting you to believe anything. You are the one actively seeking a conversion. I am simply saying that your sights are set a little high for my ability to follow.
Hey B. I can't answer you on the other thread. I promised him I wouldn't argue there. I don't understand the rules, so you might get me thrown off for this, but really. What's the end game here? I get lack of belief, but now it appears you are calling our country the great satan. I don't get it. Do you honestly believe believers are that evil?
Of course they are the same. How silly that you think they are not.
Let me get this straight - miracles are when god comes down and breaks the laws of physics but we don't understand it and majk is when the laws of physics are broken but we don't understand it? The difference is when god does it or not?
Dear me. Of course we are conversing. You just don't like it when people do not accept your argument - which is "majik." But not really - becoz god dunnit - therefore it is a miracle. Which is different.
Becoz god dunnit.
You are taking advantage of me this morning. I'm off my game. I couldn't explain this, even if I wanted to. But, the fact that you don't believe it doesn't bear much weight.
Oh - I know you are not really interested in anything I have to say and will reject it out of hand no matter how much sense I make. You have made that perfectly clear.
You may be surprised down the road when you stop fighting with the fact that it goes against some deep rooted irrational beliefs.
No actually Mark, I'm happy you're starting to share a little. I do value criticism. It is just my head is somewhat thick and it takes a while for some points to get through it. As I'm sure you have already noticed. My skin is thick enough to stand the wear, since I believe it's all for a good cause.
From the viewpoint of the social sciences, there is no objective difference between what we commonly label miracle in the Gospels and what we commonly label magic in various Greco-Roman papyri, novels and historians.
Oh. Pardon me. The final authority on the subject has spoken. Sheesh.
I think belonging to any over focus group, will limit your thinking. If you get you get good vide out of the mystic of Jesus that good enough, as long as your intention is good.
I personally never get insulted, if it’s the truth I’m learning, if someone too negative toward me, I ignore them. So, just_ curious there is no need to keep agonizing.
If your intentions are good and they can't handle a decent insult, it’s really their problem, not yours.
Actually, I wouldn't really want to insult anyone. Kid with them? Yes. Have a little fun at their expense? No. not if they' re willing to laugh along. I just joke when they seem a little disdainful.
I always consider a good intention and not intent to not insult too, it’s the price you pay for being bold, curious and fearless.
I have been told by Christians that the thing that's wrong with me is I have not given it up for the salvation of Jesus. OOWWP!! I have insulted them and acting demonic again, Sorry both atheist and religious people, I am a lover not a fighter.
I generally like your good intention, just_ curious anyways.
Lead with heart, shortly followed by mind
Ok castle, I can answer you now. Apparently that wasn't Big Brother watching. I guess I could agree with that statement. I never really thought about it.
We don't need religion for anything. Let's get our minds out of the Shepherd Centuries and show some real human evolution.
There some value in ancient spirituality, in which much of dark ages of human history has been recorded, yet also much of the translation are wrong.
Science seems to be based on evidence and technology. Science lacks inspiration as it seems to be in the mode of irreverent conclusions' Making Science lame for the imagination of the darkest. In the context of the size of the universe, if science tries envisioning the scale of Universe they would tend to ignore the many possibilities. Today's science acknowledges dealing with vast lack of knowledge of dark matter and dark energy, is humbling to our minds.
Most scientist are not believer in God, yet an Increase our knowledge without growing spiritually is lacking strength and balance.. Most of us are changing slowly to be spiritual age rather than Religious one.
Science technology is indistinguishable from magic,
The only value to spirituality is that it gives false comfort to those who have emotional need of it.
I don't know what the answer to that is. I suspect that some humans simply cannot outgrow the need for an authoritarian figure.
But I also think that most could. If we had better education and less public acceptance of nonsense, we could probably reduce theists to a small majority of sad people unable to accept reality.
I glad you find me important enough you talk to. You did not like my middle ground approach before and delete me out in whole areas.
I have very need for authoritarian figures, for I think each person leads themselves best.
Your knowledge has limits but your imagination does not. Reason respects differences, and imagination has a perceptible likeness of things. It’s an act not of reason but an intuition, Imagination is the eye of the soul and the voice of the daring. If there is anything Godlike about God it is that. When he dares to go beyond his wildest dreams, he can imagine everything.
If you look at all spirituality as the 99% unknowns, and you call it all nonsense, then your reality is very different from my reality and it's endless possible thing I can imagine.
No, you're talking nonsense. There is no God, spirit, or souls. We are all there is, unless aliens come in to turn us into a meat-farm, and then we'll be forced to adopt THEIR gods if any. That's the way of things: spiritist beliefs are never proven, only coerced.
Too many 3% atheist are so busy putting down spiritual sided people and their imagination, they only cause themselves to be so lame. Atheist lame Imagination lack action to lead the world. Things are the way they are for atheist, because of their lack of understanding of spirit, soul and it only limits themselves.
I can only imagine we won't meet Aliens in our life time because we can't find any life forms on other planet and as they are too far away for us know. If Alien did manager to find us, they would intelligent enough to be vegetarian, for meat carries too many Disease and human are most toxic.
Vitamin B12 not only comes from meat, it has to come from DECAYING meat through bacterial action. There is no significant plant source of B12, and the (British) Vegetarian Society admitted it. They thought there was a pure vegan society in Iraq, but it turns out their vegetables were being fortified -- by traces of animal manure. So the vegans live an unnatural life where they must either get their B12 from meat, or synthesize it from petrochemicals (i.e. meat that's millions of years old.) We developed this dependency on B12 millions of years ago when we were scavengers eating carrion (ever notice those evolved canine teeth?)
And you keep saying atheists are "lame" and don't understand "things of the spirit." Well, let's see. We had all these spiritualists CLAIMING there were spiritual things, but then came scientists with their proper scientific methods who PROVED planets past Saturn, who PROVED X-rays, who PROVED electrons, made them plain and evident and of use to all even though they were formerly invisible. Please provide proof to all of a spiritual thing, anything at all, that can be evident to more than one mind's delusion at a time You can't.
Human teeth are generally flat with two slight canine teeth and our stomach acid is not design like dogs and cats. People can get B12 by eating the bacteria that grows on unwashed and unchemicalized plants.
All of the Vitamin B12 in the world ultimately comes from bacteria. Neither plants nor animals can synthesize it. A vegan can produce B12 from less rinsing of fruits and vegetables. Bacterial food poisoning is much less common with vegetables than meat, but it can still occur with vegetables. The body can produce enough B12 from its own bacteria and naturally-occurring bacteria on food. I use vitamin supplementation for a number of reasons on the run, unless you have a garden, in which I do in Belize in the winter.
I didn’t say science is not important, I love science, and there is a branch of science in everything. In the tree of life has a branch or two, so we don’t become as blind as Religion
Imagination leads and skepticism science follows
So, in other words, we should let the world be run by those with deluded imaginations?
It's not deluded if you shortly follow up with skepticism not so much with the pessimisticism
You talk about abstract things like a "tree of life" that has "more than one branch". We as scientists are prepared to believe there is another way of doing things, but every air-filled mysticist who comes along talking about "another way of knowing things" has utterly failed to prove what they say.
If the body could produce enough B12 from the bacteria within (are they the RIGHT types of bacteria, though? And are they getting the cobalt atoms which are at the center of every B12??? From where??) The fact that you DO use vitamin supplements shows veganism is not naturally sustainable. Stop that nonsense, accept meat.
Yes being an artist and pioneer, I enjoy mystic term or metaphor for the great unknowns.
I do know first hand what I am talking about because I own an eco village in Belize and the area is a hot zone for people living over 100 years old. The way western society produces’ meat is a crime and I not dumb enough, like a herd of cattle to allow it, for my own life sake and I plan to have sex at age 100.
Enjoy your veal and fried chicken
Keep taking the vitamin supplements.
Own a eco village huh?
It's a good idea for people over age 50 to take a wide range of supplement, if you’re on the run.
There is only one legal eco village in Canada, so, four years ago I bought land and gave some cob building classes. This year the houses and land just went up in price 5 times. I moved all my big investment to the third world, and then swing back to Canada to join my daughter and son in law new art business partnership.
Soon enough I will laugh my way to the bank again and always stay healthy, for the sake of happiness.
What's your big dealio, Mark?
No big dealios - sorry. I am not that enamored of money. I only go make it when I need it.
Glad to hear money makes you happy though. I have never found that - only that a lack of it can make you unhappy.
Where is this eco village in Canada? I would love to write about it for one of my blogs.
I am healthy and happy mostly. But - I do not choose to live in the third world and I eat a high protein diet - macro-biotic because the French are extremely proud of their food and I have access to a wide range of in-season foods and meats that are grown locally.
I am strong and fit and have never needed to take supplements, but I may change my tune - I am 50 this year. We shall see - my dad is 74 and my granddad is 97 this year so we tend to be long lived in my family. Grand dad is losing his marbles now though.
OUR Ecovillage is an intentional, permaculture based, sustainable community on Vancouver Island, Canada offering organic gardening, local food, natural building and green building ...
A great place and beautiful people at our eco village
Awesome. Thanks - drop me a line detailing how much money you made from this and I will write you up on my property investment blog.
"not for profit"
"sustainable land management"
"living example of sustainability"
Now 'splain to me how flying 4,000 miles 4 or 5 times a year since moving your investments to the third world fits with the catch phrases that have enabled you to "laugh all the way to the bank."
Or did you not know that flying in planes is not environmentally friendly?
Or do you walk?
Is that part of the 99% of knowledge that I am too stoopid and ignorant to understand - but you understand just fine and call "spiritual."
I think a better way of thinking to lead you as spiritual being first, blending science, rather than joining a religious exclusive clubs. I don't feel most religious club their true love and one for all and all for one.
I am much guiltier than most for flying worldwide doing my work for 36 years, yet changing most of that. Belize the general idea is to minimize and simplified life and rules. Flying to Belize is not much further than flying across America and its design for low cost winter houses or for retire for now. Once you’re in Belize you can travel Centro America by a much lower cost buses trips and less distance than traveling across the USA. I recommend for people to open up their minds by traveling a different country every year.
And I recommend that you cease the destruction of our planet in your selfish pursuit of money and experience, because this does not fit in with the love you claim. I also recommend that you drop this nonsense of 99% esoteric "spirituality" that causes you to be so blind to reality.
You are not a "spiritual" being. You are a typical selfish human being in the pursuit of money, experience and power. You do not seem to have anything to teach me either. How odd that you claim you do - and it is coincidentally something I cannot see - because I am not as "open minded" as you are I assume? Sound familiar?
You can call the 99% unknown world and Universe whatever you want rather than a spiritual one. Yet, any Group claiming to have the greatest intelligence or the greatest power is just joining the problem of an over ego world and limiting their thinking in a friendlier world.
I choose to be an artist, very few artist of any kind have survived full time for 36 years, even the houses I build are design artistic and first of all for human and environmental health. Artist are the poorest paid profession in the nation and money is only 1/5 of the equation to a balance and spiritual is other 1/5 part in which I lead by. Relationship, intellectual and physical is the other 3/5th part of the balance.
I think we both can agree that North American has a serious problem with over capitalistism, plus a sad environment and war record, just read some of my hub related to this topic. My realty life is content, and happy challenge problem like these and turning them into a little bit better reality. Show me what I am doing anything dangerously blind and I will change it in a flash, for my road record shows no harm. My personally flying problem has been cut back by 90% and working on many better clean energy problems.
On the up side, most of the third world countries population like India and China are tripling their economic growth over our North America economic and slowly balancing their own financial poverties’ problems. The UN is looking at capitalist as a serious problem and war death per capital are at their lowest in human history. The world also has its own way of changing and balancing itself out better too.
As a fundamentalsit pastafarian, my prayers must be pretty powerful too;
"Our father, who art in ragu, meatballs in tom sauce. Thy pasta done, you will be yum, on plate with a twist of pepper."
All hail his mightiness the FSM!!! RAmen!
I was once a "religious person" who wanted so much to believe in it all and be a part of this thing that everybody else was a part of. I wanted to know more and went so far as to take theology classes at the college level, become an ordained minister and for quite some time was in a relationship with a former priest turned theology professor and attended his Catholic parish, although I did not convert and had no intentions of ever doing so. Over time, the skepticism I'd always had from childhood grew and so did my scientific and logical mind and none of it made any sense to me and I just let it all go and stopped trying to force myself into a mindset that went against the grain of my thinking. At that point, I let it go and as I wrestled with it all, I wrote this poem. It's an atheist/agnostic reply to the poem, "I Heard the Bells" by Longfellow:
"The Bells Still Toll" by Scarlet Henderson
I walked along a snowy street
My heart as heavy as my feet
My burdened soul world-weary old
No peace on earth
Good will to men
I gazed upon the clouded sky
And felt the earth beneath me sigh
I raised my head and then I said
Where's peace on earth
Good will to men
I fell away from God's good grace
For I had lost my trust and faith
I felt deceived could not believe
In peace on earth
Good will to men
So long I've fought an inner war
With He that sees through Heaven's door
With teary eyes He hears no cries
For peace on earth
Good will to men
And though I thought that He must prove
His power here on earth's unmoved
I braved the cold and bared my soul
Found peace on earth
Good will to men
I railed against His grace and love
Saw not the light that shone above
Illuminates and does create
Sweet peace on earth
Good will to men
Until mankind finds in its heart
The gifts that loving souls impart
The bells won't cease their sweet release
Of peace on earth
Good will to men
I heard the bells toll loud and long
With tintinnabulation strong
Their echoed sound of love abounds
With peace on earth
Good will to men
It's an atheist/agnostic reply to the poem
Sounds great to me, but I am not the judge.
Hey, j_c what do you think?
Hi. I just read your post. Absolutely beautiful. I get your stand completely. Thanks for sharing.
I wonder how atheists get their strength in times of their weaknesses?In times of trials which could lose their hopes, how could they win?
WOW did you ask for prayers or a bunch of argument and judgement! I was raised catholic, but seek my own truth! Whatever resonates well with me in my life! That is my suggestion to all! I have found many beautiful atheist prayers in my research and if you contact me I'd be happy to share the links! I have also written a hub on the topic!
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