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Leave the Church of Modern Medicine

  1. Dennis Pace profile image61
    Dennis Paceposted 6 years ago

    Just say no more.  Quit Now.  Avoid VACCINES PILLS DOCTORS Leave the Church of Modern Medicine. I see a lot of people doing that today. "The greatest threat of childhood diseases lies in the dangerous and ineffectual efforts made to prevent them through mass immunization.....There is no convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease."--Dr Robert Mendelsohn, M.D"Robert Mendelsohn had a rule: "You never hear about the dangers of a drug unless another drug to replace it is available."--Ted Koren DC For those that believe in Doctors, Mendelsohn is one you should really believe in.

    "Modern Medicine would rather you die using its remedies than live by using what physicians call quackery".--Dr Robert Mendelsohn, M.D.

    The pediatrician's wanton prescription of powerful drugs indoctrinates children from birth with the philosophy of 'a pill for every ill'."... "Doctors are directly responsible for hooking millions of people on prescription drugs. They are also indirectly responsible for the plight of millions more who turn to illegal drugs because they were taught at an early age that drugs can cure anything - including psychological and emotional conditions - that ails them. " - Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D., How to Raise a Healthy Child...In Spite of Your Doctor.
    "There are significant risks associated with every immunization and numerous contradictions that may make it dangerous for the shots to be given to your child....There is growing suspicion that immunization against relatively harmless childhood diseases may be responsible for the dramatic increase in autoimmune diseases since mass inoculations were introduced. These are fearful diseases such as cancer, leukemia, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, Lou Gehrig's disease, lupus erthematosus, and the Guillain-Barre syndrome." Dr Mendelsohn, Because routine immunizations that bring parents back for repeated office calls are the bread and butter of their specialty, pediatricians continue to defend them to the death. The question parents should be asking is; Whose death? For a pediatrician to attack what has become the "bread and butter" of pediatric practice is equivalent to a priest denying the infallibility of the pope. "I'm reminded of a debate the famous pediatrician Robert Mendelsohn, MD had with a psychiatrist. The panelist asked them about the Family Bed (everyone sleeping together). "It's a terrible idea," said the psychiatrist. "I'd never sleep with my children. It fosters dependency, it confuses them sexually, it's just plain wrong." The moderator asked if Dr. Mendelsohn would care to respond. "I agree with the psychiatrist," said Dr. Mendelsohn. "Psychiatrists should not sleep with their children. But for everyone else, it's just wonderful. I gives infants the warmth and security they seek. It enhances emotional health and it brings the family closer."--Ted Koren DC The door to the doctor's office ought to bear a surgeon general's warning that routine physical examinations are dangerous to your health. Why? Because doctors do not see themselves as guardians of health, and they have learned precious little about how to assure it. "Almost every stage of obstetrical procedure in the hospital is part of the mechanism that enables the doctor to create his own pathology."
    I have a Brother who is a DR. and a Son in medical school in Michigan. I dearly Love them both. How ever I keep reminding them every chance I get about our awful situation. THE VACCINATION HOAX
    Vaccines aren't in any way safe, and are far more dangerous than the diseases.
    The fox has been in charge of the hen house since vaccination began, so only the vaccine belief system ever gets disseminated.
    Consequently, along with the present knowledge of the child immune system  vaccination is an on going, highly profitable, long ago failed medical experiment using children, without informed consent, and to compound that fact--by compulsion in the USA.

    A thousand years ago, consulting a doctor about abdominal pains would have earned you a week in bed, covered with leeches.  These days it seems to most of us that medical science has advanced a little since then.

    Well, we hate to break it to you, but many of the common procedures in use today are about as useful, if not more dangerous, than that bucket of leeches from ages past.

    Why not join the Church of Natural Living, free from the toxic modern medical system, living and sleeping in harmony together. Kind of like we do at hubpages. I am so glad I joined hubpages.

    1. Beelzedad profile image60
      Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You mean, like smallpox?

      Interestingly enough, Bill Gates is going after the last few remaining countries that are still plagued with polio in an attempt to eradicate it from the earth.

      So much for Mendelsohn. smile

      1. profile image0
        china manposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yeah the guy should have stuck to writing boring music ! smile

      2. superwags profile image79
        superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        It's people like this nutcase that means that Polio is still likely to be alive and kicking for some time.  It was almost gone in Nigeria until a bunch of attention seeking clerics recently started telling the populace that it was a western plot to infect them with AIDS.

    2. Dave Mathews profile image60
      Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I contracted TB as a child. If it were not for medications to cure this illness, I would have been dead at age 8 rather than addressing this forum statement at age 63. You are definitely wrong on this subject my friend.

      1. Beelzedad profile image60
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Praise science! Ourmen! smile

        1. Dave Mathews profile image60
          Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Beelzedad: I give credit where credit is due.

          Thank you Almighty God for teaching the scientist how to create the medicine to save me from illness that would have killed me.

          Thank you Almighty God for my parents who cared enough about me to get me to a doctor.

          Thank you Almighty God for teaching the doctor how to recoginze my illness and what medicine was required to cure it.

          Thank you Almighty God for providing my parents with the finances to be able to afford to purchase the medicine to cure me.

          Thank you God for loving me enough to help these people you put into my life to make me better.

          1. Beelzedad profile image60
            Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            It's obvious you don't, Dave. And, it's a simple case of going through your examples to see the blatant contradictions.



            So, why hasn't your god taught scientists how to cure cancer, or the many other illnesses that have been killing people for a long time?



            So, without a belief in a god, your parents would have simply left you to die?



            How do you rationalize the fact that the very same doctors have not given the correct medicine or were able to diagnose the correct illness in others?



            What about the ocean of other Christians who can't afford to purchase medicine?



            Seems like your belief in giving your god credit for all those things is rather selfish, in other words, you only see yourself and no one else, those who were not as fortunate as you.

            We don't even need to bring in the armies of starving children on this one. You've provided a boatload of contradiction. smile

          2. profile image0
            Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            anesthetic was invented less than 200 years ago - surgery was chopping off a leg without anesthesia.  The church believed it was evil to numb pain & was opposed to its use.

            too bad that thousands died or suffered from treatable diseases for thousands of years before 'modern medicine' - what's more they got told they were cursed or possessed if sick

            1. pennyofheaven profile image82
              pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Pity too in modern times over a three quarters of a million people per year are dying because of modern medicine related reasons.

              1. profile image0
                Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                there's plenty of corruption in pharmaceuticals -legal drug-pushing - greed.  I wrote a hub about not trusting doctors - all they know is surgery & pushing pills to try to keep symptoms at bay & don't do much investigative work these days. 

                People need to take more responsibility for their own health, IMO

                1. pennyofheaven profile image82
                  pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  Yes, and taking responsibility might mean making choices by being fully informed. Or at least as much as we can.

                  Too many of us have blind faith in the doctors or alternate healers without bothering to check out what the benefits or hazards are in their preferred method.

              2. profile image0
                jomineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                but penny compare the longevity 50 years before and now. the improvement was mostly due to modern medicine. of course now a days it is more about insurance and business and pharmaceuticals but most people in the world (africa and asia) die not due to modern medicine but due to lack of medicine and the practices advocated by medicine( though good diet and proper hygiene which you accept as universal truths now had to be rediscovered or implemented by medicine)
                then in developed nations people die of accidents, heart disease or diabetes-which has nothing to do with medicine but to the longevity(thanks to medicine), sedentary life, lack of exercise and utter carelessness.

                1. pennyofheaven profile image82
                  pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I agree there are as many deaths caused by other reasons, other than medical ones that were listed in a previous post. I do not know whether longevity has anything to do with medical advancement or whether are more aware of what does not work.
                  Natural remedies tend to look at the whole person, that being mind and body.
                  Conventional tends to look at the body only.
                  They both advocate prevention is better than cure.

                  If they came together I think we truly would have a whole new quantum leap toward healing.

                  1. profile image0
                    jomineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    try to treat malaria with natural remedies!!!
                    but in a way it is true. all products come from nature, at least the base or idea. even medicine can be treated as natural. so it is about the way we use it. medicine as such has nothing to do with it

          3. profile image0
            jomineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            hi Dave
            also
            Thank you Almighty God for murdering Giordano Bruno who said earth revolves around the sun and sun is a star
            Thank you Almighty God for murdering Michael Servetus(discovered pulmonary circulation) who was a scientist

            1. Dave Mathews profile image60
              Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Jomine: These are your words not mine stop trying to put words into my mouth like that.

              1. profile image0
                jomineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                i was not saying its your words
                but what i was saying was that you could thank your almighty for these things too. these are the things which prevented and are still preventing the progress of science and you should be willing to acknowledge your almighty's helping  hand in that too

                1. Dave Mathews profile image60
                  Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  No absolutely No I will not thank God for someone being murdered. If these people died at the hands of another, I am sorry. If they died of natural causes, I do not believe that God was instrumental in their death, so I still will not thank God that they are dead nor will I blame them for their deaths either.

                  1. profile image0
                    jomineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    all good things god prompted, and but things somebody else is to blame. great logic!!

    3. profile image0
      Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      bit silly how he says 'the church of modern medicine.'  That's as daft as those that say atheism and evolution are religions

    4. profile image0
      jomineposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      so when your child gets asthma and is breathless try some natural living

  2. h.a.borcich profile image60
    h.a.borcichposted 6 years ago

    Welcome to hubpages.
    I think this would have been better as a hub due to it's legnth.
    And finally, I strongly disagree with you. I for one am alive thanks to modern medicine, IMHO. Perhaps I do not agree with everything about modern medicine, but I think there is much good in it.
    Have fun on the forums smile

    1. TahoeDoc profile image98
      TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Ditto. Not only am I doctor, I have spent years being a patient and would be DEAD if it wasn't for the option to use science and medical knowledge. I know there are deficiencies, but it's the best we have.

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I'd very much rather have the benefits of what we know now thanks to modern science/medicine than having lived with my health issues (and probably died young) years ago. 
        I used to be a christian and was told that I was sick because I was possessed by demons - a curse, because I had chronic health issues.  That was the catalyst for me walking away from the people with the crazy superstitions

  3. wilderness profile image95
    wildernessposted 6 years ago

    I understand.  That's why polio and diphtheria, pertussis and smallpox are no longer epidemic is this country - because we never immunized on a mass scale for them.

    Had you or your children caught any one of these once common diseases in childhood and been killed or crippled you just might have a different view.

  4. profile image0
    just_curiousposted 6 years ago

    I believe strongly in immunizations, but I would agree wholeheartedly that prescription drugs are a bane on society, in many ways. I know so many people that medicate, for no reason. Chunky people unwilling to accept the fact that their weight is a factor in their high blood pressure and high sugar. People who take antibiotics for a common cold. I blame doctors for part of this, but people are intelligent enough to find natural ways to fix a lot of their problems.

    But whatever ills you see in the idea of immunization,the alternative is much more horrible.

    1. profile image0
      Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I saw somewhere that the US has the highest dependence on antidepressants.  The US is also supposed to have a high rate of the christian faith.

      1. profile image0
        just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Well, both may be true but I don't think they are connected. I know several people on antidepressants. They are, from my observation, neither affiliated with religion or common sense. This is not to imply I don't see the need for medicine.

        People need to understand their symptoms and choose the appropriate and least invasive way to address them. The doctor is not always right. It has been my experience if I feel bad, all I have to do is sleep on it and it is usually better in the morning.

        1. profile image0
          Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Perhaps it's a reflection that people that believe in god don't get relief from depression?

          1. profile image0
            just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            OK, so I always got the impression from your posts you were rather open minded. I try to follow that route myself. Do you really believe that? I'll be honest, I grew up in a religious community, but there were no serious Bible Thumpers. We do have Jehovah Witnesses with the crazy  no blood thing, but I've never known anyone that didn't appear to run to the doctor for drugs at the slightest idea of a need, They love to talk their illnesses and the concept of religion is never a part of the conversation.

            Maybe I just don't have as much experience with the crazies as other people. I see the odd article and assume it was gleaned from News of the Weird.

            1. profile image0
              Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              I just find it strange how believers claim god moves though the doctors hands etc in one breath, then say illness is a curse, demonic possession or hidden sin in the next, then claim god heals in the next, then run off to the doctor at every little sniffle

              1. profile image0
                just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Yes, I know there are those who say this. I'm not sure how many of those believe that. I think it is more in line with trying to show how much more pious they are then the next guy.

                But one thing I can tell you from my observations, Christians are like most everyone else. Many people would rather not say anything, if the alternative is questioning what they believe to be the party line. Safety in numbers is safer than honesty.

                I think you would be hard pressed to find one that doesn't agree with your take on this topic if they choose to answer honestly.

                1. profile image0
                  Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  so you're saying, most christians if they were honest can't make sense of suffering and sickness (and the sin 'explanation' isn't much of an explanation).  They hope that god helps in surgery etc, but really have to admit that praying makes no difference?

                  1. profile image0
                    just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Not at all.

                    I am saying, obviously poorly, that it is my opinion that the people being bashed in this forum are probably little different in mindset from the people who are saying the least kind things about them.

  5. profile image0
    china manposted 6 years ago

    I fully recommend all religious fundamentalists to subscribe to the idea of the OP - the sooner they die out the better for the rest of the human race. 

    For all normal people this is dangerous delusional loony tunes at its best.

    1. donotfear profile image91
      donotfearposted 6 years ago in reply to this


      Ssssssssssssssssssss!http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/icons/icon13.gif

      1. donotfear profile image91
        donotfearposted 6 years ago in reply to this



        "The thing that bugs me is that the people think the FDA is protecting them. It isn't. What the FDA is doing and what the public thinks it's doing are as different as night and day."

        Herbert Lay, MD, former FDA Commissioner.

        1. profile image0
          Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          look at all the toxic chemicals (artificial colours, preservatives) etc that are permitted in food. Disgusting.  No govt organisation really cares about individual health.

  6. Beelzedad profile image60
    Beelzedadposted 6 years ago

    Of course, believers turn to Jesus to cure their ills, even though it is the doctors who do all the work. smile

    1. profile image0
      just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      You can't seriously believe that statement. Who's in the doctor's offices and hospitals. Are all the patients atheists?

      1. Beelzedad profile image60
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        That's not what I meant. Whenever doctors cure believers of their ailments, they thank Jesus, not the doctors.

        Credit should be given where credit is due. smile

        1. profile image0
          just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Having never met a believer that doesn't give credit to modern medicine when they are cured of something I'm not sure what to say except that everyone is probably in agreement with your last statement.

          1. Beelzedad profile image60
            Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Perhaps, but it is the focus of credit that is the issue. smile

            1. profile image0
              just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              Yes and, again, you may have missed their point.  Is it not conceivable that maybe they are thankful for the doctor, for the knowledge available, for the fact that they were born in a country and at a time that make these cures available?

              What you may attribute to the  great cosmic crap shoot, I'm not sure I see the harm in being thankful for.

              I'm like you. It's science and medicine, but I don't think those that feel the need to give thanks are unaware of how they were cured.

              1. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                It may not be obvious to the believer, but it seems the only times believers thank their gods is when everything turns out all good. It is even more obvious that when things do go well or when they go wrong, the events are indistinguishable from reality running it's course based on the natural laws of the universe.

                What harm? I don't know, ask a starving child that question. You very well may see the harm in their expressions of contempt. smile

                1. profile image0
                  just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  So, it is your opinion, that since we could never stop all of the suffering in the world we should never be thankful for the moments it is not with us? Not sure I follow your logic. How is someone being thankful causing the starvation of another human being?

                  1. Beelzedad profile image60
                    Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    I never said that, all I said is give credit where credit is due. Thank the doctors for saving loved ones or yourself. Gods have nothing to do with it.



                    Well, if Christians are thanking their gods for sending their kids to Disneyland while others starve to death for lack of food, clearly god is far too busy making those airline and hotel reservations to be bothered feeding the kids. I would suspect god either doesn't have his priorities straight, or there is some other reason. You tell me. smile

  7. Stump Parrish profile image61
    Stump Parrishposted 6 years ago

    If prayer is all you need to heal the sick why has the church fought for and won protection, in 44 states, from procecution for killing your child with prayer?  It's sickening to me that some of you believe and accept that a lot of christian's personal version of god, really, really, likes to see innocent children, suffer and killed in his name, Amen and praise be to god's self appointed baby killers. If you really want to kill your child, at least have the guts to kill them quickly with your own hands, I suppose your god prefers to have the children being offered up as sacrafices to suffer as much as possible before they die, Amen and praise the baby killers for god.
    Medicine might not be perfect but at least it does have history of documented success in something other than a 2000 year old comic book, Can I get an Amen for the baby killers out there?

    1. profile image0
      just_curiousposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Hi stump. I agree with you that it is horrible for parents to be outside of the law for killing children with their beliefs, but I think it is a very small percentage of Christians who hold such a backward view.

    2. TahoeDoc profile image98
      TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Yes.

  8. Dr. Wendy profile image77
    Dr. Wendyposted 6 years ago

    Great article.  It is kind of funny that when someone goes to a doctor and gets healed, the doctor and his prescriptions get all the glory.  The truth is, our Creator designed our bodies to be self-healing.  Sometimes, even when a doctor poisons a person with toxic medications, a person will heal.  The body, miraculously, has enough reserves to draw on.  However, it is more likely that a healthy diet, herbs, homeopathy, and the like will enable the body to heal more effectively.

    1. Woman Of Courage profile image61
      Woman Of Courageposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Dr. Wendy, Great point smile

    2. donotfear profile image91
      donotfearposted 6 years ago in reply to this


      You are right. The body was made to heal itself....without interference...(pollutants, heavy metals, preservatives, etc.) the list goes on.

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        well, my body doesn't run well on many 'natural' food chemicals eg casein, gluten etc

    3. TahoeDoc profile image98
      TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Actually, in my experience when things go well, it's "praise the lord", "jesus was in the operating room and saved him", "god guided the doctors".

      When things go wrong, it's "those idiot doctors didn't know what they were doing", followed by where's my lawyer?"

      But please, by all means, let your bodies heal themselves. I could use a few days off from the 80 hour weeks I spend in the operating room poisoning people and commiting other evil acts.

      Whatever.

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        but that's the way it is with god - god gets all the credit and none of the blame

        1. TahoeDoc profile image98
          TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yep, it's quite astounding, actually.

          It reminds me of the similar phenomenon of tragedy. A plane could go down and 90 people die and 1 survives. God gets praise for the miracle of the one survivor and no mention of the fact that he sacrificed 90 other people at the same time. Someone, perhaps the pilot or the plane manufacturer will be blamed and/or sued for fault in the 90 deaths.

          Fascinating, but tragically sad, twisted logic.

          1. profile image0
            Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            same happens with natural disasters.  Someone on my facebook said 'praise god' when no-one died from a NZ earthquake (actually, I think someone died from heart attack).  Most people were asleep in their beds when it happened, and also live in much better built homes than those in the Haiti quake of similar magnitude

    4. TahoeDoc profile image98
      TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      So I also saw a question about children's illnesses and alternative therapies and I have a request. I didn't want to interrupt the question/answer flow there by not responding with a sincere answer (I am respectful, believe it or not, despite being an evil, stupid doctor) but I have a request...

      "The truth is, our Creator designed our bodies to be self-healing."

      Based on this statement you made in a previous forum post where you also talk about doctors poisoning people, please explain how to self heal the following childhood diseases...
      coarctation of the aorta, gastroschisis, epilepsy, appendicitis, leukemia, cleft palate, cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy, type I diabetes, asthma, bacterial meningitis, rheumatic fever, cystic fibrosis...

      I'm sorry, I have no problem with using complementary therapies in conjunction with 'modern medicine' but I do have a problem with the promotion of these therapies using 'doctor-bashing' and telling people they should not seek medical care because God or their own bodies can heal them.

      I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful as I'm sure you are an intelligent, caring person, but please, please be careful about telling people that they don't need to take their kids to a doctor because they will be poisoned. That's my humble request.

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I didn't agree with 'body made to....' statement

        body can recover to a point.  I'm doing much better since avoiding problem food chemicals, but years of chronic inflammation did a lot of damage.

        1. TahoeDoc profile image98
          TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I don't like the way these 'posts' line up...I tried to 'reply' under Dr. Wendy, not you BB (sorry) as she had asked a separate question elsewhere about children's diseases being treated with alternative medications. Thus, my request not to encourage parents to stay away from drs at all costs because the body can heal itself.  Sorry I wasn't clear....I thought it would show up under the post where I hit 'reply' and not at the end of the string.

          1. profile image0
            Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            yeah, I didn't agree with Dr W's comment

      2. aguasilver profile image88
        aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Doc, I can only speak for epilepsy, but I have seen my daughter cured by a gluten free diet, (and prayer and diligent care)and before I saw that I had seen her turned into a zombie and classified ESN by chemical medicines.... and much as I applaud medical science for the way it can treat trauma cases and diseases that it understands, there is a big tendency for BigPharma to train medical professionals to treat the symptoms and not the cause in many diseases that could be treated naturally, but where BigPharma would lose revenue.

        I have two hubs on my daughters 'epilepsy' and others on natural healing, and my research started after a doctor friend of mine told me (about 30 years ago) that if I came to him with a recognisable trauma problem, he could pretty much guarantee my healing, but if it was in an area that they do not know yet what causes it, the best he could do was experiment with whatever was available....I was not reassured!

        Now to the God aspect.

        Obviously believers accept that God controls all things, so it's a no brainer that if you are sick, God allowed it to happen, and therefore their must be a reason, and the logical conclusion (for most) is that sin MUST be the reason.

        OK so far we have two aspects which are NOT automatically related.

        God can allow you to get sick, but that does not mean you have committed some sin to be ┬┤punished' for.

        One strong believer got cancer, and finding out that it was terminal, brought many folk to faith in his remaining time on earth by the strength of his belief, and the fact that when folk spoke about his imminent demise, he simply said he was thankful that God had told him his time was limited, but maybe they were not aware of their life expectancy.... they could die that very night?

        On the other hand, when you DO have 'authorities' issued 'out there' that allow the enemy to attack you, then obviously you  need to deal with those authorities (i.e. cancel them) before you will deal with the disease.

        In simple terms, if you have done wrong things, you are fair game for the enemy to attack you, but not always must that apply, sometimes God will allow you to be afflicted in order that a higher purpose is achieved by your affliction.

        In ALL cases, if the believer continues to give thanks to God for whatever happens, they will be fine... i.e. either God will heal them, or if they enter eternity, they do it with triumph.

        In a world where dying is considered almost as unforgivable as choosing to give birth, we tend to forget that birth AND death are natural events in our eternal existence, and for secularists who see death as the END, it is natural they should seek to extend life as much as possible.

        Personally I use medical science to diagnose anything that I perceive is wrong with me, then ask God to show me the BEST way to deal with that problem..... and there is good testimony out there that shows that God can guide you to health without chemical medical intervention.... Google ┬┤Jerry Golden, cancer' and see what I mean!

        1. Dave Mathews profile image60
          Dave Mathewsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Aguasilver: Brother this is the best response I have read in a very long long time, concerning God, and illnesses. Way to Go my brother!

        2. profile image0
          Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I'm confident your daughter would still be 'cured' (managed?) of epilepsy with the gluten-free diet and without the prayer

          Just like I am 'cured'/manage my health issues (previously depression, chronic pain etc) with diet (gluten is the most evil substance for me)

          I agree with you in that sin being the reason for illness is silly.  However, I do not see how god is involved at all

          1. aguasilver profile image88
            aguasilverposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            BB, with great respect (and I do mean that) I have spent years exploring in depth how we fit into Gods plans and where God operates in our lives, physically and spiritually, and it comes as no surprise that many folk cannot understand how God fits into things.

            I could not myself for 40 years, I have begun to understand during the last 18 years, but during those years I have been blessed to be able to study more deeply and with greater freedom than most lay folk can achieve.

            It was the prayer that led us to find the answer to the epilepsy, if we had been secular people, we would have believed the doctors and our daughter may have been dead by now, or a complete zombie.

            God is real for us because we live with Him in our lives, I know many folk have ostensibly been 'Christians' for all their lives, yet never establish that vital link that we and others we know (scattered worldwide) have with God through Christ.

            We have no denomination, no doctrine apart from scripture (and mainly the red letter sections), and no desire to join anybody, nor condemn those who do have denominations and doctrines.

            Yes it's simple, yes God can guide anybody who will submit to His will, which is in any case that we should be blessed.

            I pray that one day all will understand that.

            BTW Sin does have a relationship with sickness and dis-ease, but not ALL sickness is related to sin.

  9. superwags profile image79
    superwagsposted 6 years ago

    This is an apalling sentiment based on ignorance and dangerous religious zealotry. I suggest you keep your views on vaccination to yourself as you are clearly insane, wilfully ignorant and ill-informed, perhaps all three.

    1. pennyofheaven profile image82
      pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Other than the ones we are forced to have as children I have had no vaccinations. Of course I have been no where dangerous so that might be why I haven't contracted anything except for the common cold. Perhaps the danger might depend.

      1. superwags profile image79
        superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I'd far prefer that children were "forced" to have vaccinatons, it makes the world a far safer place for everyone as a result. The reason you don't live somewhere "dangerous" is because of vaccinations.

        Presumably you're from the developed world; in which case you needn't worry about Smallpox, Rubella, Cholera, Typhoid etc.

        Those that you were "forced" to have (and the fact others had them) are likely to be protecting you from mumps, measels, tuberculosis, meningitis and hepatitis.

        If this rubbish is propegated then it leads to increases in the prevelance of diseases which would otherwise remain very low. This happened in the Uk after the entirely unfounded story about MMR made the tabloids, with huge rises in measels contraction amongst children. Some died as a result, others were blinded or sterilised.

        1. pennyofheaven profile image82
          pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Yes it was those vaccinations. It was forced as everything was in the days. We were an oppressed culture and did not have a 'choice' just as our language was never allowed to be uttered anywhere except in our homes.

          I am not disputing whether or not they are useful or not useful that is an individuals choice. One we did not have.

          Our ancients did not have the vaccinations available in todays world. Nor did they need them till the European came along. The diseases they brought with them had no known natural remedy because the diseases were foreign to our culture and not enough research had been done to find a natural remedy. (kinda like when aids first came into being) Since way back then however they have found natural remedies.

          The choice still lies with the individual. It is not always religion that dictates what method one chooses. Sometimes it is lifestyle as it was in our culture. Now we have two to choose from. Whether one is better than the other is subjective.

          Perhaps if they worked together we might see huge revolutionary advances in medicine. I don't know but it may.

          1. superwags profile image79
            superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Look I'm not here to debate how your culture was supressed by whoever; fact is, these diseases have made it to wherever you live and it is preferable, presumably, that you live rather than die? Therefore vaccinations and modern medicine are the best you have. It is not just about individual choice, it's also about social responsibility and responsibility to your children.

            Your ancients died on the battlefield, of malnutrition in times of famine, at birth (though obviously not the ones passing on the genes) or of a disease aged 35(ish). It wasn't all larks and giggles!

            I don't know what you mean about natural remedies to aids. There is no evidence that natural remedies help anyone with aids or hiv. I really hope you don't mean that.

            I'm afraid it's not subjective either. That's not how the world works; not everyone's opinion holds valid weight. It's a fact, and thank god for that.

            I genuinely don't undertand what you mean by the idea that we haven't seen "huge revolutionary advances in medicine". The life expectancy of the world has almost doubled in the past 100 years, mainly due to medical advance.

            1. pennyofheaven profile image82
              pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              'I am not here to debate that either. I was making a point. I wasn't talking about natural remedies for aids, you might like to read my post again.

              'Best you have' is dependent on ones belief. This is my point. I am not advocating one way or the other is better or best because I have no right to. Just as you have no right to. We live in a free world where choice is supposed to be a freedom.

              United we stand, divided we fall is what I mean by if they worked together.

              Oh and by the way, if you have a look at conventional medicine you might find that some of them are from natural sources made in to a pill that costs money. Natural and raw is free for some. Some however are synthetic versions. Either way they imitate nature.

  10. I am DB Cooper profile image68
    I am DB Cooperposted 6 years ago

    It's sad to see this debate in the media, with doctors who have spent their careers studying this kind of thing trying to convince people that vaccinations are important, and on the other side you've got Jenny McCarthy, from MTV's "Singled Out" and Playboy, convincing millions of people that vaccines gave her son autism (as it turns out, his condition is not actually autism) despite having no medical training to make that conclusion and basing her belief on a study by a doctor who just recently was found to have falsified the data because he had a stake in a company that would have benefited if the traditional vaccine was found to be dangerous. That quack might go to prison, and he's the basis for this entire anti-vaccine movement in the past decade. The sad thing is nobody listened to this doctor until he had a blonde with big cans advocating his position on Oprah. Then he became the heroic doctor taking on the corporate medical establishment.

    1. pennyofheaven profile image82
      pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Perhaps the doctor had facts that we don't necessarily have access to. There are as many deaths caused by conventional medicine as there are deaths caused by lack of conventional medicine.

      An excerpt http://www.cancure.org/medical_errors.htm

      The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness. (drug reactions are the most common cause)

      *************************(further down in the report)

      The study is said to show that more than two million American hospitalized patients suffered a serious adverse drug reaction (ADR) within the 12-month period of the study and, of these, over 100,000 died as a result. The researchers found that over 75 per cent of these ADRs were dose-dependent, which suggests they were due to the inherent toxicity of the drugs rather than to allergic reactions.


      Another study compares the deaths caused by various medical reasons compare it to deaths caused by cancer and heart disease. http://www.wanderings.net/notebook/Main … lTreatment

      Total medical related 783936
      Heart Disease 699397
      Cancer 553251

      The cost of medical related  282 billion

      Makes me wonder whether it has to do with money more than real concern for health and well being. I don't know

      1. profile image0
        Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        as I've addressed in my hubs, all my health issues were from food sensitivities including celiac (where body has immune reaction to gluten) -  the doctors didn't have a clue how to fix me - offered unnecessary surgeries (which I refused because too sick to have surgery) and drugs that could have killed me (lowered my blood pressure dangerously, caused bleeding etc)

        God didn't heal me either.

        drugs are quite casually handed out, and when I complained of poisoning reactions, the doctor just thought it was a joke.  Pharmaceutical companies offer doctors all sorts of nice incentives (tropical island holidays etc) for using their drugs

        1. TahoeDoc profile image98
          TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I love you Bailey, but your last sentence about docs receiving lavish gifts for using their drugs is a bit misleading. There are a few docs that are essentially employees of the drug companies, that earn a significant percentage of their income giving talks about the next miracle drug of that company, but it's a really small percentage.

          Most docs are like me, working in private practice. We see maybe one or two drug reps a year, who may order some Subway for lunch or pass out a few pens while they talk about why their drug is best in a particular instance. I'm really not stupid enough to choose one drug over another because it's been 'pushed' in this manner.

          There was a time, in the 70s and perhaps the 80s when there was more widespread 'spoiling' of doctors by pharma, but those days are gone. There has been a serious crackdown and really, after 12 years in practice, I can count on one hand, the number of times I've been in touch with a drug rep. Most of us don't even have the time to talk to them, even if they were around. Maybe I'm sheltered, but with the operating room being the most lucrative  aspect in the business of the hospital, I doubt it.

          Anyway, we have 'talked' before and there is definitely a deficit in dealing with problems like you and your son had with sensitivities, but I think it's more that docs don't know what else to do, rather than they don't want to help (although without knowing the docs, of course, I'm speculating based on the fact that the hundreds to thousands of docs I know would help if they knew how).

          1. profile image0
            Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I'm not sure of the level of corruption in medicine.  Maybe the same as the police? 

            I'm just a bit jaded after being given drugs that could have killed me, and drugs offered for my son (after hasty 'diagnosis' of ADHD).

            Of course, I still go to the doctor etc, but I inform myself as much as possible, and don't believe everything they say without thoroughly investigating.   

            My hubby is having surgery next week - I've told him to make sure he tells them he always throws up with anaesthetic

            Many people are overmedicated & have unnecessary surgeries (both carry risks).   And not properly informed of side-effects to watch for - eg that antidepressants can actually make one MORE suicidal.  A lot of doctors are very casual about these kinds of potent drugs.

            Maybe the articles that made those claims about pharmaceutical company perks were misleading?  I can't help but feel that the drugs have become more about making money than helping people these days

        2. pennyofheaven profile image82
          pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          That doesn't sound good at all. Brings to mind one of my friends who told the doctor she was using vitamin c in addition to the prescribed message. Her question was will the vitamin affect the drugs. The doctor went into a kind of rage, ranting that if everyone took vitamin C he would be out of a job. My friend or I couldn't understand the doctors logic. Nor was the original question answered. There are many doctors here now recommending natural remedies for common ailments that can be easily fixed with alternate natural remedies.

    2. TahoeDoc profile image98
      TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you.

  11. TahoeDoc profile image98
    TahoeDocposted 6 years ago

    As a doctor, I fully invite anyone who doesn't "believe" in modern medicine or thinks that doctors are scum to NOT come anywhere near us. I would be just fine with that.

    And could you please also wear a medic alert bracelet that says "no medicine". That way, if you get creamed in the crosswalk by a car on your way home from praising your creator, I will not get pulled out of my nice cozy bed in the middle of the night when I have the flu and have slept a total of 9 hours in 3 days to save you. Please indicate that you do not want, under any circumstances to be operated on with our modern tools and medications so that I can just blissfully sleep through the night for the first time in 10 years.

    Thank you.

    1. profile image0
      Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      sounds like a good idea for adults that don't want medical intervention.  Unfortunately, the ones who miss out on life-saving treatment are the children (because of their parent's beliefs)

      1. TahoeDoc profile image98
        TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        I know, that's such a sad, sad situation.

        1. couturepopcafe profile image60
          couturepopcafeposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          I think all forms of medicine have their place.  Why do we have to pick one?  I'm fortunate to not have to take any medication except for meclazine when absolutely necessary, I avoid non-organic foods as much as possible, I save the doctor visits for times of necessity and let them do their job.  I subscribe to Eastern philosophy when it comes to health care but turn to professionals when I can't figure it out myself..

          1. profile image0
            Baileybearposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I have to take a medication daily and try to live a healthy life.  Some people are walking pharmacies though.  I've had many bad drug reactions.

          2. TahoeDoc profile image98
            TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            I agree couturepopcafe. Use your common sense and apply whatever form makes sense. I wish more people did this. No reason to be hostile toward any form of treatment as long as it's used in its appropriate setting.

            And Bailey, you are right too in your assessment that you have to contribute to your own care. Learn about your issues, ask and research about your medications, look out for yourself too. And I agree, I think some docs believe that when patients ask for their help that they are asking for medication, so they may jump to giving a med too soon. It's like when people say they know that antibiotics don't treat viral infections, but when they are sick, they demand the antibiotic anyway or they go away angry at the doctor for not doing anything. But just because someone wants it, doesn't mean you have to give it.

    2. Beelzedad profile image60
      Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      No, thank you for putting it all into perspective. smile

    3. pennyofheaven profile image82
      pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      I think doctors have their place in the world, just as I do natural healers also have their place. It just depends on the individual. I still don't see why they don't come together. Its kinda like the religious versus the atheist type of thing when really its about health and well being for both kinds of practitioners. If religion has a role to play in the decision making process for whomever, that would be their choice. The consequences be it good or bad will only be felt by the one making the decision and based on how their decision was arrived at.  Either way one will learn.

      1. Beelzedad profile image60
        Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, those how took the time, energy and resources to learn and understand a great deal based on science in order to help others.



        Behind bars, serving time for false practices based on pseudo-science and irrational beliefs.  smile

        1. pennyofheaven profile image82
          pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Do you know anything about natural therapists? I am guessing no, judging by your post?

          Ah well, too bad.

          1. Beelzedad profile image60
            Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, I have observed your capacity to apply guesswork to your responses, which are usually incorrect and often illogical. smile

            1. pennyofheaven profile image82
              pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

              They were questions you have not answered. Do you or don't you know what study, time and energy goes into most natural therapies?

              1. Beelzedad profile image60
                Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                Do you or don't you know how much pseudo-scientific claptrap homeopaths are peddling as snakeoil? smile

                1. pennyofheaven profile image82
                  pennyofheavenposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                  I guess not if you think it is snake oil.

                  1. Beelzedad profile image60
                    Beelzedadposted 6 years ago in reply to this

                    Scientifically tested as snakeoil. smile

        2. superwags profile image79
          superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this
  12. TahoeDoc profile image98
    TahoeDocposted 6 years ago

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1yxDWxUIM0

    I've posted this before and I'm just going to post this to these type of fourms from now on.  It doesn't become obvious why it's relevant until at least 3 minutes in, but then it's great.

    I needed to lighten my mood and thought I'd share. smile

    1. TahoeDoc profile image98
      TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

      Forgot to warn about language, which you may not notice if you are laughing as hard as you should be.

      1. superwags profile image79
        superwagsposted 6 years ago in reply to this

        Fantastic, love Tim Minchin! In a similar vein, here's Mitchell and Webb's "Homeopathic A&E" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

        These people terrify me. Utterly.

        1. TahoeDoc profile image98
          TahoeDocposted 6 years ago in reply to this

          Bwaahahahaha....Thanks I needed that and can't believe I hadn't seen it before.

 
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