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Intercession By Jesus? Only Christians Reply Please

  1. Dave Mathews profile image60
    Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago

    As a Christian, I understand through the teachings of Jesus that when we ask of something from God, we should ask it in the name of Jesus and it will be answered. I know how strong the intercessory power of Jesus is with Our Father in heaven.

    I have always had the question lurking in the back of my mind though: Since I am born again in Christ Jesus, since I am now seen by Our Father God as being clean and pure, sanctified through Jesus, I am also recognized as "Joint Heir" through Jesus. This being the facts, do I not have the right to pray directly to God My Father, and ask directly for things?

    I do not seek or wish to circum-vent the authority given Jesus, but I just sort of feel that God would hear and answer my prayer, without asking my Brother Jesus to intervene.

    1. thirdmillenium profile image73
      thirdmilleniumposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I just completed posting a forum topic about  hijacking the topic. I hope it does not happen here  so soon after that post.

      Be that as it may, Jesus himself had emphasized there was no way to God except through him.

      Anyway, I feel more affinity towards Jesus than the father,who i feel is an aloof figure. You can not pray to Jesus but it is he who is the way

      1. Dave Mathews profile image60
        Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I totally agree with what you are saying here. I just feel that as "Joint Heirs" we should be permitted by Jesus to approach "Our Father" without disturbing My Brother.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      If we read the book of John, we see that Jesus IS God.  He was here on earth in a distinct manifestation, yes, but never separate.  We are "joint-heirs" with Christ, yes, and as such can be considered His "brothers" and "sisters"....but only to the extent that we're born-again and therefore children of God. In other words, we do not inherit the Throne!  God sent Jesus to us so that we fallible humans could get an idea of how to live for God, to make it possible for humans to be saved and go to heaven eventually.  But....there's a separation between Jesus and us as far as what we can become.  We will never be God, not on earth nor in heaven.

      Jesus was not an angel and is not an angel.  He is part of the Trinity, distinct but inseparable from God as a whole.  He was not a created being.  He was God's mercy and grace, rolled up (so-to-speak) into a little ball and deposited into the human body of Mary so that mankind could actually see, hear, and touch a piece of God in the flesh.
      I believe He's now entirely Spirit, just as the Father is.  So, in fact, Jesus is our God.

      I pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus because I'm still human and need to always always remember that Jesus sacrificed his life for me!   And as long as I remember that, my prayers go straight to the Father, because Jesus is there...just as He was there in the beginning with the Father....
      Jesus "maketh intercession" for us on that continuous basis, based on His dying on the Cross.  But I don't picture Jesus literally praying for us to the Father now that He's ascended back to heaven, because...well, because Jesus just IS that inseparable part of God...and I don't picture Jesus kneeling alongside us in Heaven speaking praises to the Father, because He is God and it will be US who'll be on our knees worshipping Him.  Or standing. Or whatever we have the ability to do in the presence of the One....

      1. Dave Mathews profile image60
        Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you Brenda I realize God and Jesus as God. I realize we will never sit as King, but we are seen as Princes, or Princesses, to serve.

        Like I stated, praying through Jesus as my king and my God is not an issue nor would it ever be. I was just sort of thinking out loud and not very wisely either.

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          Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Hope my post wasn't too long and mouthy, Dave.  wink big_smile
          I have that tendency sometimes.

          1. Dave Mathews profile image60
            Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Fear not dear sister, words from you are simply speaking God's input through you, and I could never win by trying to disagree with God and His words of wisdom.

    3. graceomalley profile image86
      graceomalleyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      I realize reading these that I do feel closer to Jesus than the Father, I feel like I relate more to Him on a moment to moment basis.

      For me the companionship aspect of being a Christian happens mostly through Jesus, when I really need help for something, my attention goes to the Father. I didn't consciously plan it out like that, I'm just analysing now that that's how I operate. It does sound like a family I guess, where one spends more time with the brother, but when you have a need you would turn to the father.

    4. kess profile image60
      kessposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      The simple reality is that You Jesus and the Father are all one...

      No separation no division,

      What so ever you pray for is already the will of the Father and the son....

      Christianity lack the understanding of Father, Son, and ultimately themselves...which is the only trick of the enemy.

      So let the blind continue to lead the blind with their multitude of verses....until realisation comes.

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      kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

      since when do we dictate who replies in your thread.  wow.  that must have cost money, enough for bail?

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It's not a matter of who dictates.
        I see it more along the lines of courtesy.

        If I were having a conversation with a friend, I would not appreciate a stranger interrupting, butting into our conversation. Certainly not if provoking an argument.

        It juts shows how little regard and lack of courtesy some people have.
        If the OP is open to anyone to comment, that's a different story. You are certainly welcome.

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          kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          um, your in a forum though ? roll

        2. Dave Mathews profile image60
          Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          No body dictates it was a request to try an have a serious discussion with like minded people for a change.

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            kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            thank you for another personal attack, such sadness when a few are so hateful.  WWell if I overstepped my boundaries I am most sorry and I promise it shall not again, ever, ever.

            1. Dave Mathews profile image60
              Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              You are more than welcome. Thanks for your two cents worth, even though it was not requested.

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                kimberlyslyricsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                this has been resolved.  I was out of line and should not have been on line with my fathers death 2 days earlier.  I think I was trying to ge someone else to hurt like me.  I was a fool, again, I really am sorry

                1. Dave Mathews profile image60
                  Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Kimberlyslyrics: I am so sorry to hear about your loss of your father. I offer my condolences. If you would like the opportunity to just talk, one on one, I'd be more than willing to listen and try and help if it is possible. I can understand this sort of pain as I lost my younger sister a few months ago.

                2. aguasilver profile image88
                  aguasilverposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Also very sorry to hear that Kimberly, I thought you sounded off when I read your early comments, now it makes more than sense.

                  I can remember how I was when my father died..... may you know inner peace and be strengthened during this time.


                3. Woman Of Courage profile image60
                  Woman Of Courageposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Hi Kimberly, I am sorry about the loss of your father. I hope you gain strength through this difficult time in your life.

                4. pisean282311 profile image59
                  pisean282311posted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  @kim i am sorry about the loss...

      2. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I would simply say that to pray to the Father in Jesus' name, is to pray within His (Jesus') authority, which is given to us.
        He said Himself ask anything of My Father in My name, and He will give it to you. So, in His name is asking as He would ask.

        Too many people make the mistake of asking for whatever, and just add, "in Jesus' name" to the end, and hope for the best. I don't think this is correct. The old WWJD works well in this sort of situation. smile

        1. Dave Mathews profile image60
          Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I agree with you totally the thing is when we pray The Lord's Prayer we make no mention of Jesus, asking Him to intercede therefore I do not necessarily see that it is necessary to always pray in His name.

      3. olgakhumlo profile image82
        olgakhumloposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        John 14 :13
        And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name ,that will I do ,that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
        I believe we mus ask in the name of Jesus for Jesus is our interceder( I Tim 2:5)

        1. Dave Mathews profile image60
          Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          What about the "Lord's Prayer" ?

          1. olgakhumlo profile image82
            olgakhumloposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The Lord's prayer is prayed by Jesus to the Father.When we pray to the Father we pray in Jesus name- ' For there is one God and one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus(I Tim 2;5) '.

            At that day ye shall ask in my name ; and I say unto you ,that I will pray the Father for you.;(John 16 :26)

            1. Dave Mathews profile image60
              Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              olgakhumlo:  If you please think back, The Lord's Prayer is a prayer Jesus instructed His Apostles and His followers in. Please check Matthew: 6: 9-13 and Luke: 11: 2-4

              Also please you have Misquoted John: 16: 26-27;  for it reads:  "At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say ['Not'] unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believeth that I came out from God.

              You might also like to take a look at John: 17: 20-22

              I do not mind someone trying to correct me, but they had better be right, and if they quote scripture to me, they better quote it properly too.

              1. olgakhumlo profile image82
                olgakhumloposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I say, missing that 'not' was a grave error ,nevertheless praise God His truth abideth forever. John 14:13 is a command that when we ask in the name of Jesus, that will He do, that -THE FATHER MAY BE GLORIFIED IN THE SON  .I hope your question is answered. God bless you.

                1. Dave Mathews profile image60
                  Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  I understand what is being said here in John: 14:13, the way I understand it anything we ask of God in the name of Jesus, Jesus will do for us, but Jesus is not telling us that when we pray or ask for something, that it has to be asked in His name, as a matter of fact, Jesus when He prayed to Our Father did not invoke his own name he simply prayed to the Father, and he taught us to do so too.

                  1. olgakhumlo profile image82
                    olgakhumloposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Exactly, the Word of God does not compel us to pray in Jesus' name, however it does say in John 16:24-'Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name :ask,and ye shall receive ,that your joy may be full.

                    The assurance'Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name ,he will give it to you' (.John 16:23).

            2. brotheryochanan profile image60
              brotheryochananposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              using the phrase "in jesus name" is not a automatic password to success and nor is it intended to be used as such.

              any idiot can say "in jesus name"
              This phrase is a jewish idiom that means "under the cover of" protected.. given authority.
              God knows who is in jesus name, we do not need to belt him with it.

              If ye ask anything while under my covering he will give it to you.
              To end each prayer with in jesus name is childishness.

              1. olgakhumlo profile image82
                olgakhumloposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                ROMANS 10:13 SAYS 'WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'.
                  Moreover God knows those who call inJesus name from the heart and those who take His name IN VAIN.

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                  Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  According to Johns Revelation, "Jesus" is not his name.
                  The name written on his robe, NO ONE KNOWS but him.

                  According to Isaiah, there are many names:
                  Wonderful ( The one who prevails and proves the words; the miraculous )
                  Counsellor ( The Messenger of Mighty Wisdom/Counsel )
                  The mighty of "G-d" ( the mighty Warrior/Hero/Victor)
                  Everlasting of the Father ( The man who lives forever and from whom comes new generations of everlasting/eternal men)
                  Prince of Peace.

                  So, how does that work with regard to:

                  - "calling upon the name of Y`shua" for salvation.
                  - and the whole worship thing of this man "Jesus".

                  See my point?
                  It is not SOMEONE to pray to for salvation or go through to get salvation,
                  it is the gift you accept and how you from that moment on commune with Creator as exemplified by the 2nd Adam. This would end worship of men, end church and all such additional sciences worldwide...


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                    just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    It's an uphill battle, but I hope that message you just explained so well can gain some ground.

                  2. olgakhumlo profile image82
                    olgakhumloposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                    Mt 1:21 says 'Thou shalt call his name Jesus ;for he shall save his people from their sins'.
                    John 14:6 says 'Jesus saith unto him,I am the way ,the truth , and the life :no man cometh unto the Father but by me'
                    Well if the GIFT we receive, the Saviour of our sins, and the WAY we follow has a name, then it is through that name.

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                      Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this


                      People just cannot get this.

                      It is not a name, as in a title ( Jesus The Christ, Joe The Smith, Sam The Brave, Rachel The Harlet ); It is a name as in an attribute. Titles are different the attributes.
                      Salvation did/does come through a person titled "Jesus The Christ".
                      It came through the attribute (expressed action) of the work. You can call anyone by "name" and it doesn't mean anything. You call upon the power of the work ( engage the work ), that means something; that has power. I can call myself Doctor, but if I don't practice medicine or the attributes of a doctor, I am not a doctor.

                      That verse in Matthew 1.21 is not "Jesus", it is El Imman ( Creator In/With Us ) --again, the attribute.

                      The gift you receive is not a person (Savior), but the work of the person (salvation). If someone built you a house by their labor, you go through them to live there nor do they necessarily move in with you, but you do move into the house and enjoy the reward of the builders work. You decorate it wonderfully, fill it with good things, invite your friends and enemies to visit or even live there. You celebrate it and show it off for everyone to enjoy. You may even invite the builder to live there or visit...

                      So, I would say for certain, 99.9% of "Christians" are calling out a name in vain, because they have no Testimony and no Fruit of the Work of Grace, nor Faith, nor the Spirit...They have an earnest, maybe even a powerful memory of the work, but without the proof (evident fruit) they only have religion.... Y`shua explained all this to the Jews and this is exactly why they were pissed with him -he destroyed their religion. Same thing has happened in practically every style of Christianity.


                      Do any of you realize why the name on his robe no one knows/knew but him?
                      It is for this very reason: so he --the man-- would not be idolized or worshiped. A Name would inspire the qualities associated with ba`al (worship of deities of flesh or sky, water or stars, mud or fire, plant or wind, thoughts or feelings -- in any form).
                      This man never asked to be worshiped, never told anyone to worship him and actually commanded everyone not worship him, but to worship the "Father". The excuse used is "he was one with the father". But, if you read it correctly, it means he --like everyone who accepts the gift-- is one with the Father and the Father one with them -- JUST LIKE ADAM WAS BEFORE.

                      -That is/was/will always be the entire point of the Work!
                      -That is the entire point of salvation!

                      Every human has now been restored to the same place Adam was before he indulged himself by accepting the gift and acting upon the acceptance full throttle, no reservations. The veil is gone,  curtain torn,  "access denied" to the "Holy of Holies" removed.

                      What has happened, is because of the lack of true faith --the word in motion/expressed-- and lack of testimony of that word in people --the fruit-- they have placed the burden and responsibility on Y`shua and to ease their laziness worshiped the man and his works instead. Throughout history, people have done this with anyone who did amazing things --heroes. This even happened to David, Elijah, Moses --even the apostles! As a result people have given the "enemy" (the ego, the mind) quite a foothold, created complacency  (the sciences of doctrine, religion, law, medicine even technology) to levels never seen before.

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                  Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this


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        Pat Dubéposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Well, the way I look at it is if Jesus told us to pray to the Father in His Name then that's the way we should do it.   It's like using Jesus' credit card.  He has given us the RIGHT to pray in His name.  We are joint heirs THROUGH Him.   I have no problem with doing it His way.  When I come to the Father, as in the Lord's prayer, I come in the Name of Jesus. 

        I always pray in Jesus' name because that is what my Lord Jesus told me to do as we see in the scriptures shared  above and here.

        Joh 16:22  And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
        Joh 16:23  And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
        Joh 16:24  Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

        Keep it simple brother.  Just follow the script. and all will be well.

        I might mention also, that praying in the Name of Jesus does not mean tacking the PHRASE "in the Name of Jesus" at the end of every prayer but rather a recognition and understanding  that when you come to the Father in Jesus' name you KNOW you will be accepted BECAUSE of Him.   It will NEVER be because of US.

      5. 69
        paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus was never a god; he died naturally; he never played any role of intercession. The Christians should correct their beliefs.

        1. aka-dj profile image79
          aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Did you not read "Christians only need reply"?

          Is that a difficult request to understand?

          1. Dave Mathews profile image60
            Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            aka-dj:  Obviously you either can't read, or you didn't understand English,  OR you simply have to try and shove your two cents worth down my throat. You were not invited nor were you asked to comment in htis particular Forum entry.

        2. olgakhumlo profile image82
          olgakhumloposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Jesus is a historical man the very fact that you follow B.C and A.D,the empty grave proves it,the existence of the Church ( the sealed Christians) proves that Jesus died and rose again.His coming again is prophesied by Daniel the prophet and Nebuchadnezzar's dream. ( Dan 2 :31-47,ch 7)Nebuchadnezzar's dream has been fulfilled  from the Babylonian Kingdom , the Medes- Persians, the Greeks -Alexander the great , the Romans,right up to the' Mixed Kingdom '.The coming kingdom of Christ is awaited to be fulfilled.
               Every man has a chance to believe in the name of Jesus , to  be added to the church and to be sealed b y the Holy Spirit unto the Day of Redemption.

      6. bwenzel100 profile image61
        bwenzel100posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I really believe that it goes back to what we understand and simply can't understand about our God.  We are so incapable of fully understanding the wonders of who He is, of the mystery of the Holy Trinity itself, that some things, like this, we just have to take on faith.  First I think we have to remember that God came to us in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ and when we pray to Him we are also praying toThe Father.   Just as when we pray in the Spirit we are praying to the Father, we are also praying to the Father when we pray through Jesus in intercessory prayer.  I don't think that Our Father in Heaven opposes to hearing from us directly, but I think that when we pray through Jesus we are acknowledging and reaffirming our faith that Jesus is Lord and likewise we are reaffirming the very foundation of our salvation, that we have accepted Jesus into every part of our lives as our Lord and our savior.  So look at it this way, we don't have to pray in intercessory prayer through Jesus Christ, we get to!

    6. ediggity profile image60
      ediggityposted 5 years ago

      Artists, especially in the days of Renaissance would have an apprentice that studied under them.  Initially, the apprentice would be responsible for minor things like retrieving supplies, setting up materials, and cleaning.  After time, as the artist built up trust, they would begin to teach the apprentice the ways and secrets of their work. 

      Eventually, the artist would collaborate with the apprentice on their work.  With this vision the artist could essentially produce more of their work through the hands of the apprentice, and sign their name to it.  Finally, after full trust and acceptance, the artist might outline an idea that the apprentice would finish, and still be credited through their signature. 

      Now, you as a born again Christian, are preforming work of your Lord and Savior.  Will Jesus sign his name to your work?  If so, I don't think it should matter how you pray to God.  smile

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      SirDentposted 5 years ago

      Read the book of Job and find out what is sad about the daysman.

      Job 9:32  For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
      Job 9:33  Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

      Man cannot go straight to God the Father without a veil.  Remember the Curtain in the temple separating the Holy of Holies.  Jesus is now our veil.  Moses saw the backside of the glory of God and the children of Israel feared him.  How much more would we fear God is we saw only a tiny bit of His glory. 

      No man can look upon God and live.  His glory would certainly slay us all if we came before Him. 

      Jesus is also our advocate.  An advocate is somone who speaks on behalf of another, (like a lawyer).  Now we can be our own lawyer and speak for ourselves, Job 9:20  If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

      I think I could write a hub on this subject.

      1. Dave Mathews profile image60
        Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Sir Dent: If what you say is true, I ask you to consider Jesus instructions to us about praying "The Lord's Prayer. There is no mention of Jesus.

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          Pat Dubéposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          There may not be any mention of Him but it is Jesus who is telling us to pray to the Father.  That is why it is called the "LORD"S" prayer.  The LORD is JESUS.  It's the prayer that He told us to pray AND He also told us to pray in His name.  So put them both together and you won't go wrong.

          1. Dave Mathews profile image60
            Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Pat Dube: Jesus instructs us to pray The "Our Father" Prayer correct. Jesus instructs us that if we ask for something and use His name or invoke His name, He personally will grant what is asked, but He never instructs us that we "MUST" pray or ask invoking His name.

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        Pat Dubéposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Sir Dent,
        When Jesus died on the cross the veil was rent from top to bottom.  The Holy of Holies has been opened up to us now through Jesus.

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          SirDentposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          I agree.  Just as the High preist had to go through the veil to get to the Holy of Holies, we must go through Jesus Christ to get to the Holy of Holies.  Sorry if i wasn't clear enough before.

          For Dave
          :  The daysman is someone who can touch God and touch man at the same time.  This is what Jesus is.  He is the daysman that job spoke about.  Without Jesus no man can go to God. 

          There is a lot to this that I will not write here.  I may do a hub on this but not sure yet.

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            Pat Dubéposted 5 years ago in reply to this


    8. leahlefler profile image97
      leahleflerposted 5 years ago

      Dave, Matthew 6 answers this question. Jesus said,

      "But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

      “This, then, is how you should pray:

      “‘Our Father in heaven,

      hallowed be your name,

      your kingdom come,

      your will be done

      on earth as it is in heaven.

      Give us today our daily bread.

      Forgive us our debts,

      as we also have forgiven our debtors.

      And lead us not into temptation,

      but deliver us from the evil one.'

      While anything we ask for in Jesus' name will be given, we are free to pray directly to God the Father - Jesus said so.

      1. ediggity profile image60
        ediggityposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        This is how I pray also.  smile

      2. Dave Mathews profile image60
        Dave Mathewsposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        leahlefler: This is exactly my point that I am trying to make. Thank you.

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      just_curiousposted 5 years ago

      I always pray to the Father, which might be wrong; but since Christ was God in the flesh I don't think so. I am not keen on the belief you can get what you want through prayer.

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        Pat Dubéposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        It's not wrong because Jesus told His disciples that when He was gone that they would no longer ask Him for anything but to pray to the Father in His Name and the Father Himself would give it to us.

        If you don't think you can get what you want in prayer, why pray?  That doesn't make any sense. 

        Joh 16:23  And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, WHATSOEVER YOU ASK the Father in my name, He WILL GIVE IT you.
        Joh 16:24  Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, THAT YOUR JOY MAY BE FULL.

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          just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          First, Jesus was speaking to the disciples. Not to the people.

          Do I believe a truly holy human could get what anything they want through prayer? I'd have to first believe there were someone truly holy on this earth before I could say yes. We are all sinners.

          As to the question of why pray if I can't get what I want; it makes me sad that you would quote scripture in support of that question.  I could not begin to imagine the guilt I would feel if I could get what I want through simply praying for it, while so many of this world suffer.

          You were blessed, if you were born in America. You live better, even as a poor person, than a large percentage of the people on this world. You have a roof over your head that stops the rain. You have three meals a day, snacks in between if you want them. The freedom to educate yourself of anything you find of interest. You have the freedom to state your opinion without fear of reprisal. You have the freedom to do anything you are motivated to do. You are blessed. What more could you ask of your Maker? I believe any prayer concerning myself should be one of thanks, humbly given; because maybe, in His Mercy, He knew I was too weak of spirit to see His Glory while huddled somewhere without food or proper shelter.

          I apologize if this pst sounds preachy. I just wonder when people speak of the power of prayer if the realize what a truly selfish concept it sounds like. If you believe God answers all prayers. Move those mountains. Feed the hungry. Stop the wars.

          This is why the only thing I believe can be gained through prayer is enlightenment.

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            Pat Dubéposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            First of all, while the occasions in the scriptures may have been TO the disciples, the scriptures are for ALL people, especially those who BELIEVE in what Jesus has done FOR us.  Jesus' prayer in John 17 was not only for the disciples but for ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVED the disciples words when they taught about Jesus.  That filters on down to this day and age of believers.  A disciple is a follower of Jesus.  I am a disciple because I believe in AND follow Jesus.  I have made HIM Lord of my life.  I follow and live His teachings.  That is what makes a disciple. 

            Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
            Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

            Disciple means disciplined one.  One who follows the teachings of another.  Now on THAT note I will speak as to your second point.

            In and of myself or any one's self we CANNOT be holy  BUT what Jesus did on the cross and by the resurrection from the dead Jesus MADE us acceptable and holy and rigteous.  This is for  those who will believe it.  I realize that due to many years of wrong teachings and practices this will be difficult for most people to accept BUT I will give you scriptures to meditate on that will help you if you will at least listen to and try to accept them.  I had to have my eyes opened at one time also and I know it is not easy at first to accept that "I"could be acceptable enough to God and that He would hear me and answer my prayers but in fact, He does and even more He LOVES to do it!!!   I had to realize that this was God's FREE GIFT to us and that He WANTS me to receive it and accept it.  That's when I began to change my way of thinking to conform to His.

            Because I don't know where you come from I am going to take a little leeway and just say that God is a GOOD God.  I know we all say that, but in truth, we somehow think that He's up there somewhere waiting to GET us for the wrong things we do.  We need to learn the scriptures and see that this is so far from the truth.  God LOVES US VERY MUCH!!!!  He is not our adversary but rather our Saviour, our Helper, our Advocate, our LOVING Father,  etc. etc.

            Before I give you those scriptures to meditate on I would like to address the "guilt you would feel" for those who have less than you.  Firstly, I have also,  felt that guilt but I will tell you that is not the way God wants us to look at it.  Before we can help others climb out of the pit of poverty and despair, we must climb out ourselves.  We cannot help others when we have not even helped ourselves.  You speak of feeding the poor, I have. For 8 years I supported 7 children monthly, every single month.  (Please understand I am not boasting here, I am trying to make a point).  I no longer do that because I lost my job and could no longer do it. But one thing I found out , was even though I did that every month, in my heart it was NEVER enough.  I wanted to give more to the children I did support and I wanted to support more children.  The point is, is that it is futile and impossible for ME or you to do this because it is endless.   There will always be the poor.  Jesus said that.  He said the poor you will have with you always.  Is that because I'm not doing enough or that YOU are not doing enough?  NO!  It is becauseof the injustice and the turning AWAY from God in this world.  There will always be factors like governments stealing from their own people, earthquakes, disasters, people denying their own selves by cutting themselves off from the ONE TRUE GOD and believing in false gods who can neither help them or provide for them but rather these false gods  REQUIRE from them self sacrifice and deprivation and denial.   NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE THE TRUE GOD'S WILL FOR MANKIND!!!!   For now I would like to leave that subject but believe me it is BETTER for the poor of this world to have people who know how to pray correctly and believe in a God who cares and CAN and WILL do something and WILL answer prayer than to be searching for "enlightenment" that does NOTHING for anybody and is much more self serving.  It has an appearance of humility but it is false and gets people NO WHERE.

            Your post does not sound preachy it sounds self serving.  Now I do not say this offensively.  I say this so that maybe you can see how that it is unproductive it is to the world, to yourself and to God.   What you have said is, and I quote above, " I believe any prayer concerning myself should be one of thanks, humbly given; because maybe, in His Mercy, He knew I was too weak of spirit to see His Glory while huddled somewhere without food or proper shelter."  You may not realize this but in fact, this IS a selfish prayer.  You think that by some "good works" of your OWN (humility) you might just "possibly" win the mercy of God that He will ALLOW you to see His Glory, while huddled somewhere without food or proper shelter.   Well that's all good and well for you BUT I see nothing here for others.  I see no honor to God who has specifically told us to come to Him and He would BLESS us and make us a BLESSING.  What you may not realize you are saying here is God I don't want to do it YOUR way I want to just selfishly sit here until I am enlightened.  Oh brother, give me a break!!  This is not God's will nor His purpose for our lives.  This will NEVER feed the poor or help the needy in any way!!

            I'm sorry if I am sounding harshly but people need to have their eyes open to the TRUTH and stop wallowing in this false humility which neither gets God's attention nor their prayers answered!!!

            I am not saying you are any worse than I am or was.  I was there once but because I had someone teach me the truth and I believed it I am not there anymore I have now beem made free. 

            The scriptures say "IF (a big "if") you continue in my doctrine you shall know the truth and the truth will make you free!!

            I am not denying that we must be humble before God but I am denying a humility that is false and non-productive.  I am not saying that your INTENTION is dishonest or false.  I think you mean and think with all your heart you are doing right.  What I am saying is that TRUE humility is to BELIEVE what GOD says and ACCEPT what HE has done.  We can NEVER measure up  BUT GOD has made His OWN provision for us to be righteous.  That provision is JESUS!!!!  What Jesus did FOR us in His sacrifice on the cross and what the Father did FOR us in resurrecting Jesus from the dead is ENOUGH as far as God is concerned.  Our humility is in accepting THAT and not any of our own goodness (humility, suffering, going without) or righteous deeds. 

            I quote you again.  You said, "Do I believe a truly holy human could get what anything they want through prayer? I'd have to first believe there were someone truly holy on this earth before I could say yes. We are all sinners."

            I submit to you that Jesus has provided holiness, but only those who believe that will partake of it.  Jesus has given us entrance to the throne of God through His name.  Jesus became sin that we might be the righteousness of God in Him.  We humble ourselves, die to ourselves by believing HIS works were enough forever and eternally, for us to partake of ALL that God has prepared for us.

            Here are just a few of the scriptures that tell us the truth of God's great salvation for us.  I suggest you mediate on these and accept what GOD has done for you THROUGH Jesus the Christ.

            1Co 1:30  But God has brought you into union with Christ Jesus, and God has made Christ to be our wisdom. By him we are put right with God; we become God's holy people and are set free.

            2Co 5:14  We are ruled by the love of Christ, now that we recognize that one man died for everyone, which means that they all share in his death.
            2Co 5:15  He died for all, so that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but only for him who died and was raised to life for their sake.
            2Co 5:16  No longer, then, do we judge anyone by human standards. Even if at one time we judged Christ according to human standards, we no longer do so.
            2Co 5:17  Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come.

            2Co 5:21  Christ was without sin, but for our sake God made him share our sin in order that in union with him we might share the righteousness of God.

            Heb 10:10  Because Jesus Christ did what God wanted him to do, we are all purified from sin by the offering that he made of his own body once and for all.

            Heb 10:14  With one sacrifice, then, he has made perfect forever those who are purified from sin.

            Php 3:9  and be completely united with him. I no longer have a righteousness of my own, the kind that is gained by obeying the Law. I now have the righteousness that is given through faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is based on faith.

            Rom 3:22  God puts people right through their faith in Jesus Christ. God does this to all who believe in Christ, because there is no difference at all:
            Rom 3:23  everyone has sinned and is far away from God's saving presence.
            Rom 3:24  But by the free gift of God's grace all are put right with him through Christ Jesus, who sets them free.
            Rom 3:25  God offered him, so that by his blood he should become the means by which people's sins are forgiven through their faith in him. God did this in order to demonstrate that he is righteous. In the past he was patient and overlooked people's sins; but in the present time he deals with their sins, in order to demonstrate his righteousness. In this way God shows that he himself is righteous and that he puts right everyone who believes in Jesus.

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              just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Yours was a long post.I'm sure you put a great deal of thought into it. I have never claimed I was not selfish. I believe we all are, to some extent. It would be ridiculous to attempt to adress all of your points. On the subject of your original question, why would I pray if I didn't think I would get what I wanted, my answer stands the same.

              I don't want to argue with another Christian, I have read the scriptures, in great depth.  If this is your interpretation of the meaning of the scripture, our opinions are at odds. If you are following a meaning as given to you be another, please take a moment to think. To claim to have such power and not turn it to the greater good would be odd, at the very least. To make this claim does not serve Christ well.

              I realize there are points in the scriptures that leave room for debate, but a firm faith need not fear truth. God's gifts are not of the material world. We are offered peace and enlightenment through prayer. Nothing more. In my opinion, the scriptures support this belief.

              1. 0
                Pat Dubéposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                Well, I thank you for hearing me out and for your reply.  Be well and be blessed with all the spiritual blessings that God has prepared for you!  smile

                1. 0
                  just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  Same to you.

          2. graceomalley profile image86
            graceomalleyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            It's been a little while curious, but I'm going to post my thoughts anyway.

            I think i'm with the prayer is for enlightenment thing. I find I'm a whole lot less capable of self delusion while praying than at any other time - maybe since I'm talking to someone who sees the heart. It helps me see my own heart better than anything else.

            That said, I do pray for practical things. Lately I have been praying I will be able to pay my property taxes, due in a couple of weeks. I know Americans are very wealthy compared to the rest of the world, but I feel it's a funny thing being an American. We're surrounded by such wealth (my local grocery store has more than royalty of centuries past probably had) but most of us are in debt. Those of us with dependent children have steep costs to meet, and unemployment is high. A bout of unemplyment runs through your reserves pretty quickly. I personally am on disability, a very frustrating situation, not the least of which is financial.I pray regularly for my health, that it will improve, that I won't have the very bad spells like I've had in the past, where I ended up confined to bed. For all of us health is more fragile than we realize. Again, Americans may be rich, but we sure don't have reliable health. Chronic pain (this is what I suffer from) has become an epidemic. I've heard people say that those in the past suffered the same as us, they just had shorter lives, but research is against this. More Americans are suffering significant pain, and it is happening younger. 10 years ago peditricians didn't get children complaining of serious back pain - now they do.

            I pray regularly my husband & I will find a way to get our son to engineering school, which has been his dream since he was 5 years old. So I may be rich, but I have needs. I turn to God with them. I also ask Him for help with my tendency to worry.

            I also ask for emotional help. I've depended on God for this since I was very young, and He has helped me greatly. Most people who grow up the way I did turn to substance abuse, or become mentally ill. That I am a functioning person I credit to God.

            Maybe I should pray more for the poor of the world, who undoubtedly have more troubles than myself. The thing with this is that prayer is something where I get very honest very quick. And the plight of people I don't know just isn't that pressing to me. I'm a whole lot more likely to pray for one of my chronic pain friends who calls and says it's such a bad day, please pray, the pain is making me crazy. For that person I can pray with sincerity, b/c I sure know what that is like.

            Getting long here again, better sign off.

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              just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Hi Grace. You pray as many do and should, you share what's in your heart. I believe the spirit can ease worries, share some insight into the nature of the relationship we are to have with God and our fellow man, and help settle our minds so that we can make decisions using our heart and mind as one. To me, this is enlightenment and all we can and should expect our prayers to accomplish.

              I apologize if my post appeared to state otherwise. I simply feel that to state that all prayers are answered flies in the face of reality. It causes non belief in those who have valid reasons to doubt.

              Christians have a responsibility to speak truth when they speak of the nature they understand of the God they love. Your post has done that beautifully.

            2. 69
              paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Prayers do help a lot.

    10. Flightkeeper profile image80
      Flightkeeperposted 5 years ago

      I agree with ediggity. The Lord's Prayer is directly to God and I don't think God would mind if you prayed to him directly as well as in Jesus's name, whichever it is you are more comfortable.  That's my view of it.

    11. Debradoo profile image64
      Debradooposted 5 years ago

      This being the facts, do I not have the right to pray directly to God My Father, and ask directly for things?

      Practicing prayer (directly to the Father) in this fashion would result in sowing to the flesh.  It is as aka-dj said, courtesy to use the name of Jesus while praying.  But more than this, it is necessity.  Why?  Because without Him we can do nothing and if we try to do anything apart from Him we sow to the flesh.  Our flesh is a glory-hound.  And when we fail to use the name of Jesus we feed this glory-hound.  We pray in Jesus name because we sow to our spirits and we convince our souls (which needs all the convincing we can give it) and to our bodies (which needs all the convincing we can give it), that Jesus is Lord, not us.  We are to walk in the spirit, not the flesh.  You are not clean nor pure without Him, so why exclude Him in prayer?  Good question though.

    12. TLMinut profile image61
      TLMinutposted 5 years ago

      In John 16:26-27, Jesus specifically said he won't be asking for us because the Father loves us himself.

      Also in Luke 11:13 Jesus told the disciples that their Father in heaven would give them the holy spirit when they asked him. Nothing about asking Jesus to ask for them.

    13. TLMinut profile image61
      TLMinutposted 5 years ago

      Paul and Jesus didn't teach the same things though, as olgakhumlo has just shown. Jesus said specifically that we should pray to the Father without him being in the middle of it, Paul said Jesus is the middleman.

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        Pat Dubéposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Paul and Jesus DID teach the same things, as olgakhumio has just shown.

        John 14 :13
        And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do,  that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

        I believe we mus ask in the name of Jesus,  for Jesus is our interceder
        (I Tim 2:5)

        A mediator, an intercessor, and interceder, is a go between.  That is what praying "in Jesus' Name" is all about.  His name is the connection.  It's ALL about Him.  He is our go between.  We can come to the Father in Jesus' Name and that will get it done.  The Father will give it to us.

        John 14:13 in the original does not say "I will do it"  there is one Greek word for this group of 5 words the translators put in.  That Greek word can mean "do",  "did",  "done", "fulfill", "commit" and many more.  My point is that it doesn't put the pronoun "I" with it.  So you could just as well translate it as "Whatsoever you ask in my name will get done... will be fulfilled... will be committed.... ETC."

        If Paul's writing did not agree with Jesus' sayings then we might as well throw out Paul's writings but the did agree.   Jesus is our Intercessor or go between.  That doesn't necessarily mean He is going to pray to the Father FOR us.  We are to do that on our own but in HIS name.

        Joh 16:23  And in that day YE SHALL ASK ME NOTHING. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever YE SHALL ASK THE FATHER IN MY NAME, He will give it you.
        Joh 16:24  Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
        Joh 16:27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

    14. SpanStar profile image62
      SpanStarposted 5 years ago

      Mark 9:7
      And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

      If God is telling us to listen to Jesus when he's in flesh do you think that changed now that he's home in Heaven?

      If people are equal Jesus here are a few things we need to consider 1. No one in Heaven or Earth was qualified to come to earth and save mankind accept Jesus.  Jesus accepted this mission and we as people can not thank him enough.  Jesus suffered from people's ignorance, hate and lies.  He was beat, spat on, hated, cursed then nailed naked to a cross for hours.  Compare to this what have we done-beside push away from the dinner table?

      People will be judged and judged by Jesus.  If Jesus is judging us that doesn't sound like we're all on the same footing.

      Ezekiel 20:36
      As I judged your ancestors in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will judge you, declares the Sovereign LORD.

      [Brenda, you did do a good job on that response ]

    15. 69
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago

      It is an open discussion forum; everybody can respond.

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Read the OP.

        It would be rude of you to just barge in. (mum it WAS rude of you!)

    16. 0
      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago

      I doubt Dave's seen your reply yet, kimberlyslyrics...
      I don't think he will mind an interruption of the thread to say I'm so sorry to hear about your father dying;  I dunno what else to say; I'm sure it sounds like the usual; but I feel for you.  I still miss my Dad and it's been over 10 years.  Hope you're getting through this okay....

    17. PlanksandNails profile image90
      PlanksandNailsposted 5 years ago

      “Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.“For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.”
      Mathew 18:19-20

      I think many people use this verse as some sort of loophole in asking God to do things their way instead of His. If we believe God is the one in control and we are not, then we should also apply this to our prayer lives. God is not someone that jumps to our every whim when we ring little bells. I think we need to be careful in our definition of prayer and deviate from Scripture or use it for our own purposes or coercion.

      The most important part of prayer, I believe, is whether Jesus is there with us (our hearts are knitted with Him). If He does not show up, I don't think our prayers will be answered? Jesus is our conduit to the Father, that is Jesus' sole purpose, and so should it be ours through Him. This is why I believe that it is important that Jesus must be included as part of our prayer lives.

      Without access to Jesus we don't have access to the Father. First we must ask, "Jesus are you in agreement?". If He is,then
      we know the Father is in agreement. If the Father is in agreement,then our prayers will be answered because we are submitting our will to His.

      but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
      John 5:18-19

      These verses are pretty clear to me that if Jesus approves, the Father approves, but we cannot know this unless Jesus intervenes first on our behalf.

      Most importantly though, without the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, our prayers are not valid no matter which way we may try to spin it.

      With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit
      Ephesians 6:18

      Therefore,we need the Father,the Son,and the Holy Spirit.That is the importance of the Trinity.

      Finally, as a final note, I am so glad I live in a country where we are free to read the Bible and have access to it. There is so much to absorb, that it seems it would take more than a lifetime to have a full, precise understanding of the Bible, but I know that by faith and God's timing, that He can give us more and more understanding of His will and purpose for our lives.

      This is why I love hubpages, because the questions and hubs that people write provoke searching deeper into the Word of God. We may not all agree on all things, but are like-minded in searching for deeper truths in Scripture. I believe as we do this, the Holy Spirit will iron out the "wrinkles" that we wrestle with in our own minds and reveal the treasures of God's wisdom and truth within His words.

      1. vector7 profile image61
        vector7posted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Jesus is one person of the trinity..

        They are three people, and one being..

        When you talk to Jesus, you are speaking to all three..

        When you talk to the Father, you are speaking to all three..

        When you talk to the Holy Spirit, you are speaking to all three..

        When you talk to God, you are speaking to all three..

        There is no separation of God, for what one person of God deals with, they ALL deal with. God is a God of openness and truth.

        The intimacy of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit should be obvious. There is nothing done or held from the other, for they are all in agreement, all the time.


    18. christiansister profile image61
      christiansisterposted 5 years ago

      I pray to my Abba Father and I talk out loud to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Prayer is not a certain structure or form or script. It is your Soul calling out in conversation with the Father and all that He is and realizing life in another more eternal dimension.

      All of my prayers are more like conversations aloud or silent and don't end so formally.

    19. 69
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago

      Intercession By Jesus?

      Jesus cannot intercede between between the Creato-God and the human beings; he has no such power:

      [36:24] ‘Shall I take others beside Him as gods? If the Gracious God should intend me any harm, their intercession will avail me naught, nor can they rescue me.
      [36:25] ‘In that case I should indeed be in manifest error.

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        just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        I think you may misunderstand. Jesus is not a separate entity. He is one with God. The Reason of God intercedes on our behalf.

        1. 69
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Jesus being one with Creator-God is just like Moses being one with God or Buddah being one with God; which would mean that Jesus, Moses and/or Buddah would not do anything against the commandments of God; this does not mean that any one of them can intercede:

          [2:256] Allah — there is no God but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that will intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not; and He is the High, the Great.

          http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=255

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            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Jesus being One with the Creator is not akin to any man. Not the same concept. I believe this lack of understanding of the Christian concept of Christ of one of the major reasons our religions can't see eye to eye. I've heard that Islam thinks we worship three Gods. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This is not true. They are One.

            1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
              DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              This isn't exactly true. Re-read the four gospels. Read them closely and think about it.

              1. 0
                just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                I have read them. Quite a lot..You'll have to give me a hint on this one. Anywhere in particular to start? I realize the concept I'm speaking of was  proposed and expanded on later, I have always agrered with it, but I'm always willing to admit when I'm in error. Thanks, in advance for any insight you care to share. (although I'm already dizzy from all the different opinions on this topic)

                1. DoubleScorpion profile image86
                  DoubleScorpionposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                  First off the "Book" of Mark was written before Matthew and Luke(they were written from the book of mark and other texts).. so start there...If you read carefully you will notice that Jesus talks about "his father" in two ways...the first is in the literal sense of them being seperate...and also of jesus being "of" his father as well...in this meaning it would be the same as you saying that your are god child because you are a "christian" (believer). When the "rich" man says "Good rabbi (teacher)... Jesus answers.."Why call me good? Only one is good and that is my father. The one and only god". He also makes it know that He and his Father are seperate...but because he is a "child of god" they are one as well...It was common for the son to be known by his Father and if the son did or said something his father was held to it as it was considered coming from him as well.  Later Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit coming after he is gone (to replace him in a sense) The Original context of the word that is translated into the english word "(holy) spirit" is feminine. There are three distinctions made...Modern christians have justified following Jesus (as god) instead of the god of the Old Testament (the god Jesus followed) by using the Trinity concept. In fact there is no reference of the Trinity in the original texts. Hinted at...Yes....The references to the Trinity that you see in some bibles today was added much later...as to exactly when...well that is still being argued to this day...And I don't want to go any farther with this as it gets off topic of this thread...but if interested I could point you to some resources you might enjoy.

              2. 69
                paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

                A good piece of advice.

      2. Greek One profile image80
        Greek Oneposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Paar, my friend, where have you been!?!?

        I was worried you got swept up in all that chaos in the middle east / Africa

        1. 69
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks for remembering me. I was on vacations at a place where I had not access to computers and also had no time for that.

    20. akela profile image60
      akelaposted 5 years ago

      well it seen that we are sinners, and every blessed day we actually do stuff that annoys God so the best way is that through Jesus we are seen as justified and therefore a direct connection with God. so Jesus is the one that justifies us to talk to God directly

    21. starsofeight profile image60
      starsofeightposted 5 years ago

      To think of Christ as separate and apart from the born again Christian is a disservice to yourself, and an impediment to spiritual progress.

      As a born again Christian, you are, in fact, a sort of 'mini-Christ'. You share completely in the exact nature of the savior. That is the whole gist of the word 'one' and the expression 'one with'.

      Please recall what was said about the seed that fell into the earth and died. Unless it does, it remains alone, but when it grows it bears much fruit. Each and every kernel is almost an exact replica and duplicate of the planted seed.

      Therefore, my friend, when you pray to God, it is actually Christ who prays.

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        Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        May I please beg to differ here?

        ...We are still humans, while Christ is not.
        So, no we don't "completely" share in the exact nature of Christ.  I think you're getting too close to the erroneous notion that we are "little gods" like some of those tv preachers have perpetuated....
        And I disagree that it's Christ who prays when we pray.  We pray TO Christ and THROUGH Him to reach the throne...

        1. 0
          Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          1. What should humans become --by your expression of "still" human? Even Adam was human with the Christ (Anointing) upon him, before he accepted reason over revelation.


          2. He arose both body and spirit from the tomb. he walked and was seen, touched by other humans and even ate lunch with a few. So, he is just as human as you. The differences:
          a. he is the first of MANY who will be called the sons/daughters of "G-d".
          b. he did what he was taught, no questions asked, no religion, no excuses --all faith, no fiction.
          c. he said we are to be exactly like him --who is the exact reflection of the Father's Will -- the Will that was from the beginning, and even before the beginning. This is the Elohim-elohim, -the lowest expression of revelation of Creator.

          So, it seems those with the mind of this world parading as children of Life, really aren't, as they do not completely share the exact nature of Anointing (Christ). Oddly, you confess praying to a man who FORBADE YOU to do so, but emphatically stated the FATHER ONLY do you worship and pray to.

          What seems to have occurred is humans decide to worship a man as "God" and decided it was easier to worship what they had seen or others had seen instead of the One who is hidden, yet is all things. Then, to top it off, stole --yes stole-- his testimony to make it their own. I think the text calls them clouds without water, houses built on everything but solid ground, and other analogies...

          I have yet to find anywhere in the texts --if they are in any measure accurate-- after the resurrection that it states humans are supposed to remain in the same mentality or be anything less than consumed by Grace ( transformed into that Anointing Stasis of Living).


          1. 0
            just_curiousposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            James, don't get nervous, I'm not stalking you, but I wanted to tell you, this makes a lot of sense; by a lot of concepts I've struggled with over the last couple of years. If you ever write anything going into detail I'd really like to read it.

            1. 0
              Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

              Cool, I have a stalker?! je je tongue
              No worries.
              Anything I can do to assist.


          2. 0
            Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Ah, James...
            Perhaps you're not human?  haha.  Sorry, but that's what your words always seem to be trying to say!

            The book of James (not your book, but the one in the Holy Bible), says in 5: 16:

            "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.  The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."

            So....if we were "perfect" already, we wouldn't have any faults! And yet the verse also insinuates that we are righteous!  So...what is this "righteousness"?    It is apparently (and obviously!) not OUR righteousness, but it is the righteousness that God sees in us because we have the Spirit in us.

            I keep telling you this, James, and you keep rebelling at it-------YE MUST BE born-again to enter Heaven.  There's no anointing that you can claim unless you are indeed born-again.   You seem to keep wanting to skip that part and go directly to the anointing.  No dice.   Just like you can't skip over Jesus's sacrifice and go directly to the Father.

        2. 69
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Jesus himself said he was Son of Man or Son of Adam which means he was only a human being neither a god nor a son of god.

          1. vector7 profile image61
            vector7posted 5 years ago in reply to this

            The Son of Man was used in the book of Daniel to describe the coming Messiah..

            Not Jesus saying He was 'just' human... He said more than once He was God.

    22. 0
      Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago


      First, you sidestepping puts you in the same class as M. Knowles.
      I took the info right from your books and you cannot deny it. Instead you stage-left to find footing. No worries.

      Oddly, you seem to be stuck --like 99.9% of other beliefs, in a cyclone of the same ole thing. What you are trying to explain, you really cannot, since you have no real experience to back it up. You have memorized line-line, verse-verse and even "did" the motions.

      Here is what's missing:
      a. You (all humanity) WAS righteous at one point. And that right standing (righteousness translated) has returned through Y`shua's work. But you keep refusing his work --or worse-- stealing a testimony you do not own, because you have no true testimony of your own, to keep that endless cycle going.

      So, should you keep thinking you are unrighteous when you have been made righteous? Should you keep eating leftovers from the table when the king has built a mansion for you and prepped a fab feast. Should you --as a prodigal son/daughter, who wasted a fortune of seed, value, time --yet came home and was welcomed still hang your head in shame even after the shame was lifted and the calf roasted in your honor? Speaking of honor! Does that false humility and self pity bring honor to your parents (heavenly or earthly)? The fruit of your harvest is evident, no fruit. When the king came and gave you an invite to the wedding, you say "oh no, I couldn't possibly", so the king takes back the gift, the robes of righteousness and tosses you out of the wedding ( I am sure you know that parable too...)

      b. The reason James defines this is because of one thing and only one thing -same as all the prophets did, Y`shua and the others -- you (plural) have no real faith. Your faith is tied up in parchment, pretty cases, shiny temples and oh-so-melodious song. He asks to confess to each other so nothing would be hidden and that all the believing would share --all things --in common, else any division would hinder the Spirits work in the entire collective (ex: one bad apple rots the bushel).

      c. You continually fail to see who you were created to be. You always -ALWAYS continue to look from your perspective of who He thinks you are or you think you are, instead of His perspective of you. The reason? You're too "busy" being "Christians" --just like the "Jews" were too busy being Jews to see when salvation came. Their vision was a King, your vision is a stereotype "born again" and "return of the king". You pray all these things but never stop to listen for more than a split second, cuz you have to get someone saved or read a passage from a book or go to church.

      d. In continuum, rather than spend 24 hours with your Abba, you think you get a "witness" from the "spirit" and run to look up a passage in the book, that supposedly tells you what YOU wanted to know. In short, you miss the Spirit and like Peter, sink back into that mentality of unbelief. If you have actually read all the works He did and understand them, you would know a measure of just the size of a single mustard seed would remove the entire illusion and --like Saul attempted to express, and James, John & Pete saw first hand, you would start to actually be born again (transformed into that of the resurrection image --a human being "glowing with the glory").

      All I can ask you then is this: why, for someone with such a passion for this truth and the work, do you --yes you-- keep crucifying him over and over (clinging to the "ole rugged cross" -- because you keep rejecting (by lack of action/faith) the work He did on your behalf. A set of book and a work you have come to worship and have made a idol out of?

      Perhaps it is not me who needs to get born again. I know for certain 99.9% of BAC's are only going through the motions of church, are not born of water-spirit, they only switched to a different channel --mentally. Same as the Jews before you. Same as the atheists now.
      They just can't let go of their self, their rules, laws, their ways. BUT, they have more excuses than "Carter has Peanuts".

      Much love,

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      Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago

      Drat it! Now you've gone and done it, James!  You lumped me and Mark in the same category, and so now both of us will be totally offended! big_smile  OH LOL I'm just kidding; Mark might get offended, but not me.  Because...I'm just a prayer away from being an atheist myself!  And why do I say that?----because that's all it took, one earnest prayer, to transform me from a sinner to a sinner saved by grace.  I became.....born again!

      Well, your thoughts are hard to follow, James....I don't understand your point, really.
      But I do understand my point!----and that is that it's not all about ME!  It's about leading lost people toward Christ; it's about the "great commission".  And each Christian leads people to Christ, whether they see direct results of it at the time or not.   The word of God never returns to Him void.

         A Christian's life is about that service----spreading His word.  I'm just a simple Christian,  an imperfect woman serving a perfect God.  I'm not necessarily content, because I do try to learn and grow; (I'm still learning the Bible!  And that sounds terrible coming from a woman who's been hearing it and reading it for over 40 years!  BUT I see many many "learned" people, including Pastors and scholars, who have studied it all but yet have key parts of it wrong!)...

      but I AM happy to be simply a Christian.
      Let me put it this way----if God intends me to be "more", He will make me "more".   He will mold me as He sees fit.

      Love you too, James, in Christ!
      Thanks for putting "much love" at the end of your post. I keep trying to make Mark love me but he's not open to the Love of God, especially hearing anything from me.  wink

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        Twenty One Daysposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        hehe...am sure Mark will appreciate the sentiment.

        It's about leading lost people toward Christ; it's about the "great commission"

        -- yeah , no. It isn't about that at all. Which is why people are still dieing, still getting sick, still sad, still reading from a book instead of just listening to the spirit.
        Cuz, as the book says: No one can lead the "lost" to the Father, it is the Father who draws them to him. That way, no human can say: see what I did, I brought So-in-so to you and boast (mentally to themselves) or verbally to others how godly they are. Jews did the same things by circumcision, etc; As do all organizations in some way.

        Instead of spreading "his word", why not do this: be a living example of the words COMPLETELY --the same word at Creation and --as you said-- doesn't return empty handed.

        ... John 5 comes to mind as does John 14.2. Oh and this one: Romans 8.11.

        But, again you reaffirm a conviction I have held for a long time, even when nearly handed the keys to --not one-- but two ministries...

        Have A Good Weekend! smile

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          Brenda Durhamposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          Good Scriptures.
          I've heard interpretations of those that actually coincide with my interpretation of those.  Maybe I'll run them by you sometime.  Especially the part about "greater works", a passage that's often debated and often misinterpreted as well as mishandled....

          I hope your weekend is good too.  smile

    24. 69
      paarsurreyposted 5 years ago

      Jesus- the Son of Man; never a god or son of god; he could bear nobody else's sins.

      Please don't overburden Jesus with your sins; it is no good to be in this illusion.

      1. aka-dj profile image79
        aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

        Why could Jesus NOT bear another man's sin?

        Why do Muslims sacrifice lambs?

        1. 69
          paarsurreyposted 5 years ago in reply to this

          If you cannot bear the sins of other men; so could not Jesus.

          Can you?

          Jesus was Son of Man like other human beings; only the Creator-God could forgive the sins of the sinners:

          [39:54] Say, “O My servants who have committed excesses against their own souls! despair not of the mercy of Allah, surely Allah forgives all sins. Verily He is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
          [39:55] “And turn ye to your Lord, and submit yourselves to Him, before there comes unto you the punishment; for then you shall not be helped.

          http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=53

          1. aka-dj profile image79
            aka-djposted 5 years ago in reply to this

            Why can I not bear another man's sin?

            I can, just not before God.

            Suppose I paid your fine. You were guilty, but it was me who took your punishment. That means you go free from punishment. You don't pay, because I did!