Anyone who thinks they are possessed by demons is obviously mentally ill, but we have hubbers here who think this is real and that it has a religious solution.
I would support laws requiring secular intervention and fining or otherwise punishing any church or individual involved in "treating" people deranged in this way.
I believe in freedom of religion, but this goes too far.
Understanding the atheist thinking I noticed that you've step out of line....so to speak...
irrationality and unstable thinking belongs to religion...thus they are the crazy people....
so if they of themselves offer a solution to their own problem ..then who should fault them?
Definitely not an atheist
They are just doing exactly as expected of them according to atheistic thinking.
Anyone who believes in demonic possession IS in need of mental health counseling and I have no hesitation or reget in saying so.
Pc...please remember that george w. was elected TWICE by America's populace.
Why? We allow fortune tellers, seers and people taking money to communicate with your dead relative. Voodoo priests selling curses and others selling love spells. Astrologers are everywhere as are "hands on healers". There are even priests taking "collections" to help the "building fund" in exchange for telling you how to live your life!
There's a sucker born every minute.
It's not a matter of "suckers".
The "possessed" are seriously mentally ill and need real help. Additionally, they could be dangerous to themselves and others.
This is a place where sane society needs to interfere with insane beliefs.
You are right, of course, and I apologize for my somewhat flippant answer.
I was not thinking of those that are severely "possessed", but rather those that want an exorcism to stop some trifling matter that they could take care of themselves were they not convinced they were possessed by something causing them to act the way they do.
What you are talking about is not much different than with holding medical care from a child because God will heal them.
some are accused of being 'possessed' by the mentally insane - like cult leader David Berg & followers that abused his grand-daughter with exorcisms - speaking 'in tongues' while 'rebuking the devil', slapping her face & commanding demons to come out - when she hit her head and was vomiting, they said she was vomiting demons
She was accused of being possessed, because she questioned their religious doctrines.
I think it is against equity to let the robbers abuse the mentally ill freely. It is a good proposal to have rules in the society to help the mentally ill that they are not abused.
"The "possessed" are seriously mentally ill and need real help." Could be said that anybody that sells their soul is seriously possessed.
This is where religion crosses the line for me.
When somebody thinks that someone else can "sell their soul" or is "possessed", I think it is time for sane people to interfere.
I don't come to that lightly. Meddling with religious beliefs is something that should be avoided whenever possible. But this stuff just goes too far.
What's next? Atheists must have sold their souls and are possessed? And then anyone with the "wrong" religion must be in the same state?
Too far. Too much. Sane people need to speak out and stop letting these crazed people operate without censure.
well, some of your fellow hubbers have made such statements, that atheists are evil and demon-possessed. I'm not going to name names, but I can think of at least 3 who think that way
I know that. But nobody chastises them or speaks against them.
There is fear of being seen as intolerant. I understand that and I hesitate myself and want to give the benefit of the doubt - are they just using hyperbole? A little poetic license to make a point?
Yes, sometimes that's all it is. But sometimes it goes too far and it is obvious that this represents true belief.
Sounds like your little demons are afraid of being noticed...
If that's a joke, fine - funny enough.
If not, you need help.
PC, I need no help, but you need to understand that some folk actually live in full knowledge of the spiritual world, I did before I came to faith, and I continued to do so once I crossed from the other team to Gods side of the fence.
I do not expect you (or any other of the current batch of secularists)to understand, nor condone what I say, nor believe what I have seen and experienced, and frankly who cares, certainly not me.
There are many of us out here, not doing mumbo jumbo exorcisms, but quietly dealing with what the enemy has laid upon folk.
In virtually all the healing Christ undertook, he first cast out the demonic spirits that held folk in bondage, then he dealt with the sickness.
The enemy has been greatly successful in persuading secularists that he does not exist, hence you aghast manner to hear that some folk still deal with his antics and set people free from oppression.
Now castigate away all you like, I have not entered this forum for any debate, just to make a statement correcting your statements.
Pcinix, I don't know anything about the way they go about 'depossessing' someone. I agree with you. Mental health is the primary issue. These people probably aren't hurting anyone. I don't think. Maybe they just lay hands on them and pray.
But you are probably right. The boy who killed so many at Va Tech had no help. I read his mother begged her church to step in. She claimed he was possessed. Maybe if they had, someone would have seen the danger and averted this tragedy. Some people just need to know that someone else is listening to their problems. Mental health professionals can't be everywhere that people have a need for help. It wouldn't be a bad thing to see people work together on this.
I would hope that main stream churches would speak out against this.
Unfortunately, the Catholic church still subscribes to this dangerous nonsense also.
some of the protestant churches are no better - they are into exorcism too - they just give it different names, like deliverance. And they refer to their 'demons' as 'the spirit of oppression' or 'the spirit of depression'
Yes, I know.
This is a serious problem that most theists want to ignore. They don't believe in this themselves, but they, like me, hesitate to interfere because meddling with religion is serious business and should not be undertaken lightly.
We all want to look the other way if we possibly can, don't we?
Sorry, I doubt I'm main stream anything, so I wouldn't be much help there. I would call the police if I witnessed strange behavior. It wouldn't cross my mind to call a priest.
There was a dispatches documentary a while back on child witch accusations here in the UK with stories of horrific abuse and even a case of murder for the accused witch.
I hear what you say PC, about hesitating to interfere because meddling with religion is serious business and should not be undertaken lightly.
Thing is, if the religious people wont police themselves then who is going to do it? The job will have to come down to agnostics and atheists because its a problem that cannot just be ignored.
No, it can't be us. This has to come from the religious community.
You are probably right, its only likely to be effective if it comes from the religious.
While looking for links to the child witch craft abuse stories I came across a story about the Vatican being possessed by the devil. I wouldn't hold my breath that the religious will ever take responsibility for their religion. Hence I don't think they will lift a finger to stop the abuse that happens. All the seem willing to do is pray, and well there isn't a great track record on that working. If it did I am sure the starving of the world would start praying professionally to get food.
Why do we blame evil spirits, demon possession and the devil for OUR evil actions?
Demons don't interfere with us, they don't need to. Our evil and destructive acts would shame any demon as a lazy wimp cause we just can't be beat in terms of committing horrible crimes against each other.
Why is that? Why a ARE we so good at being horrible to our own kind?
If you go for the evolution stuff that includes the survival of the fittest then you could say that cruelty makes for a good survival mechanism for individuals. As more peaceful people get murdered/tortured etc. by the crueler people of this world what we are left with is a cruel race willing to lie, cheat, steal and murder to survive (sadly we don't need to do those things anymore but it seems its in our nature now).
Or you can say God made us this way. Brilliant job is all I can say to that theory.
RE evolutionary reason.
If we don't kill off more and more, overpopulation is inevitable. Is that for the betterment of the species? Will it not bring MORE suffering than the cruelty we now display?
You know with some very simple education we could curb our population growth within one generation. In a handful of generations we could experience real population reduction. If 2 people only ever make one kid that effectively will reduce population without resorting to cruel acts.
How cool would it be if we, as a species, had the capacity for violence and cruelty but chose intelligence instead. We don't have to exercise cruelty toward each other to solve our problems. Just like I don't have to smash a jar to open it, I can just twist the top off instead, we as a species don't have to resort to the BS that we do just to solve our problems and understand this world of ours. Common sense does seem to be highly discriminated against tho, not very helpful.
OH yes, education. Where are the educators?
Who will finance it? It is a pipe dream to think it will ever happen.
I recon the current way is going to work itself to it's ultimate destiny. We are too many to make such radical changes. I feel ya, but don't see it as possible, well, certainly not probable.
It happened with me, the pipe dream was more real then 'the American dream'. I had educators right left and center, paid and unpaid. My STD educations got mixed up with my teachers trip to europe. It was funny as h*ll, here's us in paris, and here's a penis with a bloody discharge and here we are at the Eiffel Tower. My teacher was not highly paid (she had a husband with money tho). My adopted mom was also a reasonable teacher. Teaching people is not unreasonable and is frankly a wise investment in ones society and population.
Awww diddums! Just cause its a little hard to build up momentum in the population you're gonna write it off as impossible to influence change? Maybe just wait for some divine being to come along and do the job for ya? I hear that God helps those who help themselves
Not to mention the fact that helpful hands are stronger then prayerful lips
Your thoughts on this are very insightful. I wish more people could think your way.
Not a bad idea. I think however there is a bit of a stereotype myth attached to the "only child" family, that a child with no siblings will grow up selfish, spoiled, lonely, maladjusted, etc.
So the 'nice' educated intelligent folk only have one child... guess what, they cease to exist in 50 years and the control then rests with all the not so nice uneducated unintelligent folk who continued having 5.6 children per couple.
I have a hub about demographics.... at the rate we are not breeding, the whole northern hemisphere will cease to be as it has been inside 50 years.
Pretty much HAPPENED now, and speeding up!
We had two kids and it looks like they won't have any.
Oh, well.. good news for future theists though
Not at all good news, your secularism has no bearing on your progeny's future any more than my faith does on mine.
God has no grandchildren, we all come as individuals.
What it does mean is that you will not have to live knowing your grandchildren may suffer at the hands of the screaming hoards for what they do or do not believe in, so there is some small blessing even in that!
As it looks to me like this country is becoming more religious and more disdainful of science. I'm not at all unhappy about not having grandchildren.
Oh I think the country would become more religious, but Islamic, and I'm glad you don't regret not having grandchildren, I guess it's fortunate that those who have none were normally not wanting any anyway!
I have one son of 22 and a daughter of 9 (I started late and kept trying!) so I have possibilities of Grandchildren and we are open to them, but then again, there simply may not be enough time left to see grandchildren!
Islamic or Christian, both the same to me. Equally foolish.
Ah, but the Christians will allow you to remain very foolish, whereas I doubt your acerbic wit and secularist views would be tolerated under an Islamic regime, indeed you may well find yourself called an 'infidel' and loose contact with your wig!
You don't think that there are Christians like that?
Sure there are pockets of ignorance in the backwoods maybe, but they don't run countries or continents and they don't kill anyone who disagrees with them on any grand scale.
Your personal freedom is mainly due to the influence of the Christian religion on your country, and I would warrant that in any other regime we would have less liberties available to us, be they religious or secular.
I am no great fan of Churchianity either, but despite all it's error and faults, overall it has shaped a society that approves of tolerance and individuality, something which Islam is not able to claim.
Practice makes perfect, religions have been playing that game for centuries.
Believe me, we are not even close to how horrific spiritual forces could be if allowed to have their reign, but fortunately they are restricted for a while longer yet.
Does the law recognize demons as real? Could you use demonic possession as a defense or a charge in a criminal trial?
No, the law does not.
What is your personal involvement? Do you live and let live or will you use your beliefs to justify acts against those you think are possessed?
Do you believe I am "possessed" because I say your religion is a delusion?
Actually it would be classed as 'diminished responsibility' and seen as a mental condition, but then law (being created to deal with black and white) cannot start to accept supernatural evidence or it is required to:
a) admit it has no legal control in these matters
b) seek to gain mastery over supernatural events.
My personal 'involvement' is as a believer who is empowered to work against demonic (or supernatural) spirits which adversely interfere with folk, normally following those folk having gotten involved in spiritual areas they should leave alone.
In reality any believer can exercise authority over spiritual forces, Christ did and he told us that these things and greater we could do in his name.
Most are either ignorant of the fact, unwilling to do so, or doctrinally challenged in that area.
I would never be involved in any scenario where the person themselves did not recognise their problem, or at least that they had A problem and were open to discussing spiritual deliverance.
I have consistently stated in my hubs, where the issue has arisen, that ANYBODY who says they have a 'deliverance ministry' or did this sort of thing full time, would be a loose cannon awaiting a bad result. Being involved in spiritual cleansing is not a hobby or a job, it's a task that needs to be done when you meet a problem that relates to demonic interference.
Kinda like clearing our backed up drains.
Not having met you, I have no idea, you seem 'possessed' towards religion, but you may just be a compulsive addictive personality affixed on this subject.
What more could they really do?
Cause I bet you I can find cases where we already do it
That is entirely the point, not believing you, of course, and witnessing just how dangerous such beliefs are to society and mankind.
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