If god showed himself to you and commanded you like he did Abraham to kill your son or daughter and have him/her be burned and sacrificed, wouild you do it? How would you feel about god giving you this command?
I would kill god, not my loved one. Any god that wanted me to do such a thing is no god of mine!
You already have.
Your god is DEAD.
However, mine is still alive.
Any "god" that can be killed is not TRULY God.
If He were, no mere mortal could kill, change or manipulate Him.
BTW, I have grandchild no. 2 on the way.
LOVE, I said LOVE being a granddad.
Pretty easy to kill a psychotic entity like that if it existed, and a duty I believe.
A god who asked for such a thing would be a psychotic lunatic as far as I'm concerned.
Congratulations on the second ankle biter!
The old cling to religion so they don't have to be afraid of death.
I pity them.
Stop sacrificing sheep and sacrifice your own daughter or son.
Great idea god, I am only a mortal, what do I know, you’re the best God.
I might faint...
But according to what i've read, the command was taken back when Abram's God saw his willingness to sacrifice his son, and provided a ram for him to sacrifice instead. The command was to show what Abram's God is going to feel when the time comes for him to sacrifice his own son, the foretold messiah, to provide the ransom for the perfect life that Adam lost. It has something to do with John 3:16 - "For god so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
No. As aka-dj and others said, He wouldn't ask.
God wouldn't command me to.
If He did, He knows I'd fail.
He did many things in the Old Testament (and even in the New) to illustrate things to all people and to challenge us to Love Him and to ...simply....put HIM first in our lives.
God knows that none of us are righteous enough to die for the sins of the world. He knew no one was even back then. That's why He did it for us! Same with sacrifice; as Jesus, not only did He do away with literal sacrifice (of animals as well as the kind of tests of Faith that Abraham went through), but He simply was setting examples of what love is supposed to be.
God is always declaring His sovreignty, along with His love for us, and challenging us to make the choice to choose Him. Why He keeps doing it is an awesome statement of His patience with us wormy humans....
Amen, thirdmillenium. Except...I'm not sure Abraham knew it was a test, at least not at first?
"He did many things in the Old Testament (and even in the New) to illustrate things to all people and to challenge us to Love Him and to ...simply....put HIM first in our lives."
Yeah, that interpretation reminds me of a petulant girlfriend I once had. I ended up dumping her.
The Creator-God never commands like that; it is mistunderstood, it never means physically killing; it is alway symbolic as it was for Abraham.
I do not remember the spot exactly, but their was a king that promised to sacrifice to god, the next person he saw. Suddenly, his daughter showed up and he sacrificed her.
Even when I was a christian, I thought to myself that I would rather be cursed here on earth for the rest of my life and suffer every type of disaster than sacrifice my own daughter.
Obviously, the answer is no.
The Christian God is no longer your ultimate love, duhhahh... I wonder why.
There is no such thing as a "Christian God", it is universally accepted by everybody else in the world that there is either:
a) No god
b) One god
There is not a "Muslim God" and a "Hindhu God" and a "Christian God", such as name makes me wonder just how much knowledge you have about your own religion.
My ego is not that grand to claim that there is no God in the great unknown Universe. My life is based on good sense and have experience tapping into some form of higher energy that I can not explain in words, call it god or whatever, there is strong love force connecting us all together.
Killing my daughter is not a god from an all loving kind. or kindness.
To start with I am an atheist so I have no need of any god. If there are no other gods than the one true god, why would that god need to command his followers to worship no other gods before him? If there was only one god for everyone, there would be no need to mention the rest of them in the first place, right? This indicates that your god knew there were other gods and yet a lot of you know better, correct? How does one go about becoming god's personal spokes person? The bible is the one true book except for the parts that modern day christians disagree with, amen.
Jephtah... but he did not kill his daughter. He sacrificed her by means of making her serve in the temple all her years, living there single and childless. She was Jephtah's only child, so it was considered sacrifice. It means Jephtah's line will be cut right there, something shameful for a Jew during those times.
I would assume anything asking that wasn't really God. I think I'd find the nearest hospital and check in.
He would not ask.
If you understood the story you refer to, you would also understand WHY He asked, what Abraham thought about it, and the ultimate purpose for which it was instigated.
I think I may write a hub on this little understood story.
I wonder how many people do actually know this?
Write about the one on the bald headed priest, too, I love laugh at that hub too.
If you think it's a joke, laugh all you like.
Your ridicule falls way short of "changing my mind", or otherwise inspiring me to listen to your opinion. If you actually have a constructive one.
Who's the bald priest you refer to?
The children who mock the bald head of the bald headed priest. He then shredded them to death.
In church many priests have been too embarrass to tell the story about the bald headed priest because children may laugh out loud. Or perhaps the priest fears bears will enter the church and shred those kids apart for giggling too.
Job is another winning story where everyone and everything Job knew was destroyed by god just to prove to Satan, Job has total faith in God.
Satan had created the thing call, job, in which I love doing for most waking hours of my life, so he is not so bad.
I cannot imagine running out idea's to kill my daughter or anyone. If God asked me, to kill my daughter, I would sue anyone who slip me that very dangerous elusive drug for even the thought.
Most Christian I asked on a few sites, I asked them, if they were on vacation in Iraq and then were capture by terrorists and the terrorist were killing Christian who admitted they were Christian. Most Christian said they would not lie and allow themselves to die.
If most Christian would commit suicide that easy, over their god, I see no different of them killing their own children. So filled with many natural born killers with the worst record in human history regardless it's the ultimate sin.
He would NOT ask.
(Just in case you missed what my answer was).
Cags -- are you implying I've been drinking out of dirty glasses? Heck, I chug straight from the bottle
Seriously, if God wanted to test me by telling me to kill my son, he'd have to give me several cases of Twinkies first
No, I wasn't implying that you were drinking from dirty glasses, but to clean the ones that should be in place on your face. It's good to know that you like to chug from the bottle, it definitely shows a specific aspect about you that I didn't know. But, all learning is good.
Twinkies would be a good thing for sure.
I am doing everything I can to keep someone from dying now! My brother has terminal brain cancer. If god appeared before me, I would more than likely say, where the hell have you been? My brother is suddenly a big "Christian", and this is how god repays him for spreading his word? Not only that, but all the pain, misery hunger, and suffering, of millions of people? And you want me to kill someone? I'll pass.
Now turn some water into wine, or get the heck out of my house!
God only tested Abraham but men actually did kill their own, neighbors and one else they could get at.
Geez we are so much better then God aren't we????
Yes, but God also flooded the earth and probably killed hundreds and thousands of people. Not to mention sending plagues during the time of Moses, that killed countless others, and for what? So that people would pay attention to him? And use fear so that people would bow down and worship him? Sounds like the act of a terrorist to me.
I would like to think that god is loving, but, he has just pulled way too much hateful crap to make anyone totally trust in him. It would be nice if the bible wasn't so full of confusion. Probably the reason why so many people are having trouble believing any of it.
God has more then suffered the hatred, and crimes of mankind for generation after generation and since it's clear that mankind isn't going to change but continue their behavior of hate and destruction-Which We Always Ignore Talking About The Evils We Do.
Then Flooding Yes-But I Bet On That Day They Took A Second Look At Their Lifestyle, As I'm Sure Did Sodom.
Mankind can do nothing until religions have gone the way of the dodo. Once that happens, we can begin to rebuild "Mankind" without the need for invisible friends in which to shift the burden of responsibility.
It is because of Mankind that religion is here. If your precious idea of mankind being so great- then why is war and on going event from generation after generation, why is mankind still raping women, men, why is mankind always involved in some kind of lie, why is so much poverty still around since mankind is so great, I have more however I'm sure you won't get the message because your eyes seem to be blinded to self absorted unfounded glorification.
I'm not sure you noticed, but the cultures in this world with no religion are limited to remote jungles and rain forests. I don't see where they've done anything for the advancement of the human race.
As to shifting the burden of responsibility, it looks to me like pointing the other finger is a human trait. At least that's what I get from your post.
How arogant man has come to first think they can be better or even equal to God of all creation-to be able to stand in judgement of him when as man or mankind created a universe or even another lifeform without using that which God has already created.
It's like having a motorcycle gang kill. rape and do whatever evil they choose while people stand back and do nothing then when God wipes out all but a few-Oh God Is Evil-ridiculous.
Still - Christians such as yourself dun wiped them out - so it is all Good innit.
Little wonder your religion causes so many wars.
Read My Lips---MANKIND CAUSES WARS-AND STILL DOES!
Read your lips as you shout god's love?
Little wonder your religion causes so many wars.
Oh God does love
Let me show how much he loves.
Because if humans were given his powers and had to put up with mankind I'm betting there wouldn't be one human left after Cain killed Abe- no way do we have the patience of God to put up with man's crap for this long. That's How I Know He Loves.
You know this is a story - right? Dear me. Your ignorance is quite astounding. Perhaps if you shouted louder? Like wot god wants? We have been here perhaps 30,000 years in a 4.5 billion year history.
How arrogant of you to ignore that.
I',m not understanding your question,
"but inspired by belief in what?'
are you talking about God, because it is God we're talking about?
Not all of them Mark. I saw some on a documentary the other day. Good thing they didn't tell me where because, you know me. I would have been on the next plane out to annihilate those heathens.
Get real. You know that's not true. Christianity is not the cause of war now. There must be better arguments against religion than that.
Not all wars are caused by religion, but it sure is a tool for justifying wars.
The fact that people use religion to start wars doesn't mean they are right or true. I can start a war by saying the Government is unfair now if the government is doing what it can to govern doesn't mean my claim is valid it's just an excuse.
So - you agree the idea of god is nothing more than a reason to cause war?
Clearly you're not reading what I'm writting maybe someone can set you up with an appointment at Lenscrafter, Mark.
Writting? All I see u doing is causing a fight. As you religionists always do.
Not persuading me Jesus is a savior of anything when his "followers" act the way you do. Just don't get it do ya? Act like this and we all see the you for who you are.
Scared to show who you are - all you want to do is fight.
Lol, I am about to fall out my chair laughing. Repeating statements that religion causes wars is so boring,.
The truth hurts huh? Little wonder you need to hide behind a fake user name. How courageous is that?
Are you Span Star as well?
No u am rite innit - no religious wars.
Laugh at me some more - like wot Jeebus sed to do innit?
Is this showing love and turning the other cheek?
This is for Just Curious, and your comment about the remote jungles.
The only reason the people in the remote jungles don't have religion, is because the people who practice religion had not found them yet. If you look at Civilizations in the Americas, before the Europeans and th Spanish came here to "discover" the new world. The people who were here did not worship our god. And that includes the Indians. Religion was brought here, and pretty much forced on the inhabitants, by the armies of kings and queens.
Notice how little or no memory of those gods still exist, other the carvings on stone, and ancient ruins. Once those people were gone, Our lifestyle, and our religion took over. So, you can bet, that if those remote places were found, there would be religion there.
Church groups in the United States are always going to these remote places to "spread the word" While they rob those people of their culture and try to make them more like us. And, they do it without even asking them if they want it. One reason why places like Lebanon constantly arrest church people, because they do not want them there.
In 44 states you can not be charged with a crime for letting your child die by choosing prayer healings over real medicine. It is legal in the majority of this country to sacrifice your child if you so choose to honor your god this way. It took people working together to get these laws passed. I would say that the answer for a lot of Americans would be yes if they were truly honest about it.
Wow! That is disgusting! I can hardly imagine a level of prehistoric ignorance like that would be in 44 States.
do you have any links? So parents are legally allowed to deny medical treatment resulting in death of child?
What God gives, He has a right to take away. He is God, for God's sake! But He would not ask
In the one instance He did ask, He stopped the act before it was carried out. And, you might not have realized it but Abraham realized it was only to test him and knew God was going to stop him
If god knows everything, and abraham knew god would stop him anyways, what's the point of asking in the first place?
I am stunned that this question has resulted in the number of responses I'm reading. I'm even more surprised to find myself actually joining in the prayer meeting. It seems there's something that closely resembles a congregation gathering around the question and much talking in tongues. On the other hand, it may well be a script for the theater of the absurd. The next best thing to a pint is a Pinter. Hub pages seem to have some precious gems buried in the strangest of places, although I find it difficult to understand why I too am strangely attracted. No mocking intended - unless it's directed at myself. Cheers, everyone.
Uh, no. Thanks for the reminder of why I am not Christian. Or any other "ian" believing in any "ism".
there is blame . and there is cause. plenty of the first . none of the later
If it had gangrene I would! lolololol!
Ah well back to drawing.....
gods not here, its us . its our fault ,all of this. belongs to we alone. if there is a god . which i hope there is. and it finds its way back to check on us. it will be disappointed in what we have become . for good reason .
not persuading me Jesus
Why on Earth would I try to persuade you to Jesus when you spend every waking moment of your life telling people their is no God?
In my religous world it's been said a lot people aren't going to make it into Heaven I just have to accept that.
Of course you do. No one could accuse you of doing anything other than threatening.
Little wonder your religion causes so many wars.
I'm sure their are other people you want to bother
so I'll log off for now and I'm sure I'll see you again when I log in again.
Come back and threaten me any time - Be sure and hide behind a fake user name though. Wouldn't want to admit to your real name spect Jeebus dun sed hide like a little girl just in case.
Thank you So Much Mark for Showing All of Us Where Violences originates with these sisy remarks of my being like a little girl-Clearly God and religion has nothing to do with those acusations where you're trying to call me out and though I'm not as young as I use to be trust me when I Decide To Threaten You You Will Most Certainly Know It!
Sissy remarks for calling you out for hiding behind a fake user name to threaten me with God's punishment for not believing what you believe? I don't understand. You do hide behind a fake user name and you do threaten me with God's punishment for not believing. How is being honest being sissy? I thought Christians valued the truth?
Does Using Capitals Make It The Word of God?
Yelling in Capitals about GOD is a warning that the punishment is worse than the crime,
Good thing we both don't take it so hard to heart OR feelings.
No - but children do. Which is why I call these guys on it. I was threatened with this nonsense as a child and it is very difficult to get it out of your head as an adult.
They get rather aggressive when you call them on it.
Awareness and access to information is better today, than in our childhood. Of course plenty of miss information can be dangerous today too.
I wish religion would confront the issues better at hand, what’s worst than being overly aggressive is them totally ignoring you.
Hi Mark, No, it's not true that religion causes wars. I respectfully disagree with you. I was laughing because you continually repeat the same thing throughout the religious forums. I can't help but laugh.
Sembj -- Welcome to the HP train wreck gang.
It is irresistible, horrifying and rather addicting, isn't it?
Love the line "The next best thing to a pint is a Pinter."
Thanks MM: I do feel oddly at home here although it does spill over into reality in unfortunate ways; it makes strange sleeping hours even stranger, for instance. And thank you for the appreciation of the pint/Pinter thing, I felt quite clever when it popped out and it's always gratifying to have one's vanities acknowledged. Whoops, I didn't mean to tell anyone about that vice but I suspect it all comes out in our writing anyway.
P.S. I'm a bit nervous about using a name since I'm constantly living in terror of innocently contravening a rule and losing my work. I think I may have come perilously close when I tried publishing my second article and it left me traumatized - I've come to think of it as a kind of pre-posting traumatic stress syndrome that attacks me before posting anything on HubPages. S
P.P.S. I am quite impressed by the passion that's been brought to the deep question - I strongly suspect that the question must have been posed by someone who was influenced by dark powers. What a splendid microcosm of the world. Vanity most Fair in all it's power and glory.
Woman of Courage,
Historically, religion has been one of the two most common causes of war. Ever hear of the Crusades?
Ever here of Northern Ireland?
What do you think is behin 9/11 and all the terrorist attacks around the world?
Mighty Mom, People is the common cause for wars, not religion. I can see that we have different viewpoints.
"What do you think is behin 9/11 and all the terrorist attacks around the world?" Oil.
"Whatever the reason is, religion plays a huge role to make it happen, plus I don't think they were fighting over oil in the crusades." True the crusades were probably all about saving souls and what re-taking Jerusalem?
Here is the link some wanted concerning legal exemptions from providing healthcare based on religious belief,
Explain to me again why the right pretends to care about the rights of the child. the only right they care about is their preceived right to tell a woman what she can and cant do with her body.
I recommend exploring this site unless all your truth comes from one unvarefiable source anf faux news.
There are a things from the bible that I do not understand and refuse to accept as God's doing. A lot of illogical things that sound like the ancient ones were inhaling something that was not myrrh. That's my opinion, anyways. I don't see the point of God asking anyone (not even Abraham) to kill their own son to show his love for God and his unquestionable obedience.
If "God" asked me that, I would check myself into a mental hospital.
We have an already over obedient world and an over ego World too, time for an adjustment, like it or not.
So its okay to defy the law and human reason because the old man in the clouds said so?
You should rather say "The snake in my stomach made me do it" or "It was the voices, they told me to do it".
Then you would get off as insane rather than going to prison and being know as a violent fundamentalist who murdered his own family.
In prison you will be wondering if God has rewarded your actions with the Anal Rape you will most likely receive.
" Would you"? (kill your own flesh and blood was the question, I think.)
Let me jus say it in one word,
Ready? Here goes...
(BTW, Most religious people are against it. Most atheists are FOR it)
That's the idea.
Open a can of worms, they may as well crawl out.
Hey dj. I lean strongly in the same direction you do on religion, but abortion is something I find I cannot agree on with the main stream stance. A woman's body is her own. I cannot imagine what type of emotional struggle someone must go through on such a difficult decision. To conceive a child is a biological function. No divine intervention helps that process. The birth of a child, in my opinion, is the infusion of a separate soul.
It is a decision I've never been faced with, and I can honestly say I have no idea which way I would go.
I don't believe Christianity serves the message of Christ well in this country with the hate they spew toward women on this issue. I hope the Christians in your country try to respect the individual more than ours do.
As an atheist and a pro-choice person I am not for abortion. What I am for is the right of a woman to choose what happens in her own body.
Face it, make abortion illegal and desperate women will just go to dirty, back alley clinics where the abortion will happen anyway - but this time, women will die, because the procedure will be much more dangerous. If you really care about life, then make abortion legal.
Or is life only important when it's unborn?
I don't see how you can be "not for abortion", yet support the right of a woman to choose.
What alternative does she have?
Have the baby...or...not have the baby! (Abort pregnancy.)
To support pro-choice, you support pro-abortion, by default.
If I have this wrong, please show me where?
"Pro-abortion" implies I want all pregnancies to be aborted. I am for choice. If a woman's choice is abortion, I will support that. If her choice is to give birth, I will support that too.
I accuse no-one.
My family has been affected by this.
All I'm saying is, people kill their own flesh & blood through abortion.
They cannot use the excuse "God told me".
It's an answer to the OP. That's it!
But they can use the excuse "The snake in my stomach made me do it" !
Seriously though I am sorry for what may have happened in your family but firstly you are not a woman and you have no idea what it is like to have a child growing inside of you so please don't talk about a situation you can and never will experience.
I personally could not see myself ever having an abortion but I will not dictate to another woman, who maybe cannot feed or clothe that child.
She might have her own reasons, i.e. rape, abusive relationships or pressure from the other parent and so on.
If abortion is not legal, she will do it illegally and might bleed to death or become infertile. You may see this as a just punishment but I have more compassion and cannot see it that way.
I don't see abortion in the same light as killing your family.
Maybe you will call me names and say bad things about my beliefs but I don't really care.
I feel sorry for Christians who walk around judging everybody and behaving more like the pharisees than Jesus. For their own sakes they had better wish there is no God.
No, I have to admit I am not a woman, and I will never carry a baby inside me.
I know the woman who had the abortion had "good reason" to abort. However, she wore black ( a sign of mourning) for 10 years. Grieving over the loss of a child that "might/should have been".
I am not one of those Christians who protest, call people names & the like. I, &(and my wife) have done nothing but love and encourage this woman, because of the pain that was obviously there.
I am mature enough to know that none of us acts perfectly. We all make some big mistakes, often stupid ones we regret. We need to show love, kindness and compassion to these who "know not what they do".
Fear not, that I will call you names or be rude to you because you have a different point of view.
I am truly glad that you have been supporting this woman.
Most woman who go through this, regret it for the rest of their lives.
I had a friend who aborted twins when she was very young.
She hates herself for it and cries more often now that she has kids.
I am glad that you see that they need compassion and not judgement.
I was really expecting name calling.
Sorry to say, name calling is a reality. Usually by those who have no constructive argument, or get overtaken by emotions.
I have been around these forums for a long time, and I have learned (the hard way) to leave emotions out of it.
I have been called a few names, but more often accused of things I never said, did, or would even dream of doing. It's a tough place, the religion forum. Beware!!
I think the vision of Abraham from the Creator-God was to tell human beings that human physical sacrifice is not needed.
The Creator-God never commands like that; it is mistunderstood, it never means physically killing; it is alway symbolic as it was for Abraham.
There is one word for it and it is called Insecure..Only Insecure beings can test by such a way like god is said to have tested Abraham...Just imagine...god is said to know everything which has happened in past , in present and in future..so god knew what would abraham do...so taking test doesnot make sense at first place and still god did take test!!!!!!!!!!!...Now either god didn't believe HIS ability to see future or god was too insecure that HE didnt believe future which he saw and went with the test...
I think instead of testing Abraham; it was to tell to the humans that visions and dreams are interpretable and taken as such.
why tell humans?...this telling business itself is too childish...god can do better job by downloading what ever he wants to tell in human brains...like he does not need to tell how to breathe or how to eat...then god could have given choice ...rather than inventing Abraham stories...but why blame god for it...religious god like religious stories is mere concept...and people who invented stories like Abraham kinds and they got what they wanted...control over human beings...
What control did Abraham had? It is purely a religious event having nothing to do with power or control.
m not talking about just one event...religion as a whole serves two purposes...it gives meaning to human life which craves for having one and second it is tool which controls human beings...we are muslims ...we are christians...we are jews...in reality there is no we...it is one single race which has evolved...but we makes it a group which influences laws , way of lives and helps people get control...those who originated religion had different reasons to originate religion and most of reasons were genuine but those who followed them , used religion as tool to control...just take case of pakistan...their government cannot do away with man made law because many believe those laws are divine...now they can't get away with it...religion is controlling government , forget individual...religion decides how humans would live!!!!!!!!!...irony because religion is for humans , humans are not for religion...human can exist without it and have existed without current versions of religion and gods ...5k years down the line , current version might die down or change but humans would still thrive...if there is one tool which controls most,it is religion...
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